Date   

Re: List of shortcut keys for office 365 web interface?

 

Luke,

            Could you please clarify the following?  The outset of your message makes it sound like the context is the online versions of the Office suite programs, and difficulty using them.  That part's clear.  And it seems you might be asking about shortcut keys related to those, but maybe not.

             But you then ask about opening a document (by which I take it to mean any one of the various programs' specific file types) in its corresponding desktop app, and I get the impression that you believe this can be a sort of "flip it out of online and into desktop" with no intervening steps kind of affair.  would that be correct?

              See this page from the University of Colorado at Boulder, Office of Information Technology:  Office 365 - Accessibility of Office Online
What follows seems to fill the bill with regard to "flipping into desktop Excel/Word/Powerpoint" from Office online, but there's other useful information as well:

Open with Office for desktop

Every Office Online file can be opened in its corresponding Office desktop program, by selecting Edit in (application name) from the Edit menu. To open your file with your desktop software using your keyboard:

  1. Press Tab until you get to the Edit menu.
  2. Press the Enter key.
  3. Choose the Edit in (application name) option.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

       ~ Brian Vogel

 


List of shortcut keys for office 365 web interface?

Luke Robinett <blindgroupsluke@...>
 

Hi

I’ve poked around online but can only seem to find keyboard shortcuts for the desktop versions of Microsoft 365 office apps. I find the web versions of Excel, Word and PowerPoint to be difficult to use with a screen reader and I’m hoping somebody can point me toward a clear, concise list of useful shortcut keys. At the top of the list would simply be a keyboard shortcut for opening a document in its corresponding desktop app. As it is, I have to tab around and use different browse mode commands to find the button that allows you to do that.

Thanks!
Luke


Re: NVDA crashes when trying to forward Outlook messages

 

On Thu, Feb 11, 2021 at 01:18 PM, Janet Brandly wrote:
About the Outlook message I tried to forward, it turns out that I accidentally mistyped the recipient’s address
-
We all fat-finger on occasion!!   But that still doesn't explain an NVDA crash, particularly if you can reliably trigger same.  If you can, that's when careful information collection becomes critical.
 
If it was a one time fluke, then you just move along with life.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

       ~ Brian Vogel

 


locked Re: Announcement Only: This Moderator's Expectations of Group Members #adminnotice

 
Edited

On Thu, Feb 11, 2021 at 01:14 PM, Nimer Jaber wrote:
Anyone, of any skill level, is welcome to post to this group.
-
And I'm repeating this to reinforce it.  At the same time, if you are a complete neophyte, completely confused about something, or similar please do not hesitate to say so.  That's how your potential assistants can determine exactly how to assist you.

When you're helping someone you know (or have every reason to believe, if they've given no other information) is not a rank beginner with something you'll most likely give much more abbreviated information with much less "hand holding."

I don't presume that anyone who's joined one of these lists is likely to be a rank beginner, in any sense, because getting to the stage where you even join forums or email lists is "not beginner" for most.  It would be silly to presume that.  But if you are, there's no shame in saying that, and, in fact, there's value to saying that, both for yourself and your potential assistants.

We are here to serve everyone, and I think the track record of this group over the years proves that we do.

But I still ask that even complete beginners, to the extent that they can, think carefully about the subject they use in their messages, which becomes the topic.  That's often a "one shot deal" that, if vague, means you'll get far less assistance than you might have.  Try to give as clear a picture as you can about the assistance being sought with that subject.  Subjects like, "Help Me!," are really, really not useful to anyone.  Subjects like, "What's the NVDA command to {do whatever}," or, "I need help with getting NVDA to work with {insert Braille Display name here}," by contrast, are very, very helpful.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

       ~ Brian Vogel

 


Re: NVDA crashes when trying to forward Outlook messages

Janet Brandly
 

Hi Brian,

 

I will definitely check this out. About the Outlook message I tried to forward, it turns out that I accidentally mistyped the recipient’s address, LOL.

 

Janet

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: February 11, 2021 10:56 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA crashes when trying to forward Outlook messages

 

Janet,

           Whether or not you're someone possibly inclined to Creating an Issue in GitHub for NVDA, it's still really helpful to be able to collect the information that an "under the hood" assistant would need for this kind of issue.

            Near the very end of the above mentioned tutorial is a direct link to the one specific to setting NVDA up to collect detailed information about a crash: Collecting NVDA Debugging Information to Report to NVAccess

             Please consider doing that collection, then putting aside a copy of the NVDA log so that you can share it with someone skilled enough to interpret it.  That makes getting to the root of what's happening much easier.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

       ~ Brian Vogel

 


locked Re: Announcement Only: This Moderator's Expectations of Group Members #adminnotice

Nimer Jaber
 

Hello everyone,

I have a couple of things to add to this thread.

Anyone, of any skill level, is welcome to post to this group. If you have a question, it is appropriate of Brian to request that you do a bit of research before asking your question, and this is indeed, the expectation on many forums. It is also okay to say that you are new, you don't know how to search, you are a beginner computer user, etc., and you will be assisted gladly.
I repeat what I said a month ago or so. No matter what someone's vision level is, they are welcomed here, and will be treated with courteous respect. Vision should not be what divides us.
When we lock a thread, it is not because we don't wish to hear or address feedback. It is because often times, a topic has run its course, or a topic is best discussed elsewhere. Rarely, we may lock a thread which may be more technical in nature, even if it does pertain to NVDA, because that question is better discussed on a developer list, add-ons list, etc. We can all guide one another to resources wherever possible, which may be better suited to a query, and we can all make better use of the NVDA chat list for discussions not relevant to NVDA.
We have not removed anyone from the list for not doing research beforehand, or sending us feedback to the owner address, or whatever else, and we haven't restricted posting permissions, either. Netiquette is important to follow, but should not be the reason that you do not ask a question or seek assistance.
Finally, yesterday's events bothered me not because of the feedback provided, not because I don't want to hear feedback, but because of the manner it was delivered. It is never okay to restart a thread which has been locked, never okay to call out someone publicly acting in a moderator position on pretty much any forum or list, and certainly never okay to do so twice in one day.

I believe that many of the rules that Brian posted are common sense rules that apply to any forum on the web. Not quite as serious as flaming/posting about illegal software or posting pornography, but serious enough that, if not observed, there is a cause of annoyance for many, a cause for legitimate messages to be missed because of excess noise, and a cause of members who may ordinarily be here to choose to leave. I repeat, nobody has been removed for not doing research ahead of time, or even for re-opening a locked thread, but I ask that you consider your actions, intent, and whether what you have to say is NVDA/related, has been asked before recently, may be something easily discovered, and is something that should go out to the inbox of over 1300 members. I am not downplaying the seriousness of Brian's message, and he continues to enjoy my full support. I am, however, stating that nobody should be worried about whether or not they should be posting to the list, so long as messages follow list guidelines/rules. If you'd like a more relaxed place to ask questions about any topic, definitely check out the chat subgroup, and understand that this group will remain focused on the discussion of NVDA.

If you disagree with anything written by me or Brian, please reach out to nvda+owner@nvda.groups.io so that we can have an off-list cup of tea and chat about your concerns.


Re: NVDA crashes when trying to forward Outlook messages

 

Janet,

           Whether or not you're someone possibly inclined to Creating an Issue in GitHub for NVDA, it's still really helpful to be able to collect the information that an "under the hood" assistant would need for this kind of issue.

            Near the very end of the above mentioned tutorial is a direct link to the one specific to setting NVDA up to collect detailed information about a crash: Collecting NVDA Debugging Information to Report to NVAccess

             Please consider doing that collection, then putting aside a copy of the NVDA log so that you can share it with someone skilled enough to interpret it.  That makes getting to the root of what's happening much easier.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

       ~ Brian Vogel

 


locked Announcement Only: This Moderator's Expectations of Group Members #adminnotice

 

I have actually been shocked at what has occurred over the last day.  When it comes to membership in a group, and in specific regard to group rules, there are the written ones that get sent out to all new members, there are clarifications and sometimes additions in the form of Admin Notices, and there are actually "unwritten rules" that are a part of the culture of any online community (or real life community, for that matter).  Those who are new to a place really cannot have as yet absorbed that last category, so they do get some slack, but "old timers" really do not and should not.  If you've been around for even a single episode like the one that just occurred, and several participants in same have been, then you clearly know what's coming, why it's going to come, and why you deserve to be called-out for what you've done.  No owner or moderator should ever have to apologize for applying group rules and conventions as evenhandedly as they can.  Sometimes that actually means focusing on something that's been "allowed to slide for too long."  It doesn't matter if administration has been lax, which I can't imagine most ever accusing me of, if they decide that they want to "tighten things up."  That's a legitimate part of their role.

What follows are a set of expectations I have of members anywhere I moderate.  Seeing as I have been a moderator for many years now, and in many venues, I have plenty of real life experience and evidence that not a single one of these is an unreasonable expectation.  And none of them have anything to do with the fact that I can see, or someone else can't.  While certain among them may be more challenging for a screen reader user than someone like myself who is fully sighted, they are far from impossible.  Most are not even difficult.
--------------

Here are the things I expect from members of any online community, and every one I moderate, in the year 2021:

1.        You remember that everyone who is a member of the group is here by their own choice, and that help provided is on a volunteer basis.  That means that there could be a significant time delay between when a question is asked and when it may be answered.  It also may not be answered, this happens.  When a question is not answered, it’s because no one knows the answer, not because it wasn’t seen.  Please don’t ask again hours later or the next day.  If it hasn’t been answered after two days, you can bump the message, one time.

2.       If you receive a message/see a post that is not applicable to you the moment you encounter it, but that you know will be applicable to you in the near future, e.g., messages about how to tweak Windows 10 settings back to “classic” when Microsoft changes something, that you will file them where you can find them later.  You are supposed to be paying attention to all information shared, and being proactive about your own needs.  Things asked and answered once should not need to be asked and answered again in short order.  While many topics tend to reappear after long spans of time, they shouldn’t reappear very quickly.

3.       You are capable of doing a web search and/or a group archive search and will do so if you did not file information you know you’ve seen previously.

4.      You will have done a web search and/or group archive search before posting almost any question, because the vast majority of questions relevant to online communities have been answered, repeatedly.  It is rude to impose upon the time of hundreds to thousands of people regarding questions that have answers that can be found independently with very little effort and basic skills.

5.       If you are told, “There’s this thing called a web search,” or, “Google is your friend,” or similar that you realize you deserve it.  I have yet to see this response to anything that does not warrant it.  If you ask something that indicates you didn’t follow the practices outlined in items 2 thru 4, before asking online and imposing on the time of others when that’s completely unnecessary, this is a perfectly legitimate response to that.  You’ve been lazy and rude; don’t repeat that mistake.

6.      If you receive a reaction such as those in #5 above, the appropriate response is NEVER to argue back.  The one and only response that is appropriate, if you actually do not have the skills to do your own searching, is to ask for assistance in acquiring same, period.  Believe it or not, those who gave that reaction to you will very often be your best assistants in acquiring the skills you need.  That reaction is meant as a nudge to you to acquire them.

7.       When you ask a question, you think carefully about what you put as your subject/topic title.  These should give a clear, very clear, indication about the nature of the question or questions about to be asked.  And if it happens to be one of those occasions where it’s a “laundry list” of questions then indicate such in your subject/topic title.

8.      You will not post the exact same question to multiple groups or forums at the same time.  A very great many members of any one tech community are members of many others, and they don’t need or want to see the same question in twenty places.  Ask sequentially, if you don’t get a message after asking in one place, and waiting a few hours to a day, at a minimum, before asking elsewhere.  If you want to know why a very great many in the cyber world do not consider multi/cross posting to be at all acceptable, then read:  On Posting to More Than One Online Support Forum for the Same Issue – AKA Forum Cross Posting.  The principles apply whether it’s online forums or email lists or both involved.

9.      That you read, absorb, and accept the following:

It is impossible to help individuals who will not listen to advice unless they like that advice. Being a good assistant is not about making the person assisted "feel good," but about both asking the right (and sometimes hard) questions as well as giving the information necessary to achieve the desired result. Getting help is a two-way street, and those asking for help have work they must do, too, when asked. They also need to be ready to let go of what they'd like to do, and instead do what's been asked for by the person offering assistance.

               Those receiving assistance are free to reject advice, you are also entitled to ask for clarification, but if you don’t want to do what your assistant is asking, then state that so that you can both can move along.  Assistants have every right to assist as they see fit, and those being assisted to either follow or reject the option(s) presented.  An assistant is within their rights to withdraw support at any time, for any reason.

10.    That a group owner’s role, and the moderator’s role, is to enforce whatever group rules are in place at any given time.  You do not have to like the rules, and you have every right to present a case for a change in rules via the correct channel, which is not in public, but whatever those are at the given moment in time apply to you and to everyone else.

11.      That if you cannot accept all of the above, and act accordingly, you withdraw from the community or communities where that’s the case.  No one forced you to join, no one can force you to stay, and no owner or moderator wants to constantly have to deal with behaviors that violate the rules of their community.  We’re all adults, and should behave as such.

--------------

Please bear all of those in mind.  Please also don't ask that I include them in the Welcome Message or Monthly Notice, as those messages are long already, and core rules would get buried even further.

Not everything has to be in the rule list sent out when you join a group, just core rules.  Other things, like the above, when clearly stated by someone in an administrative role, hold equal weight, and are a legitimate part of moderation decisions.

Since this message is an announcement, it is now locked.  If you wish to take up anything about it, the correct mechanism for doing so is to send a message to the NVDA Group Owner Address, nvda+owner@nvda.groups.io, and to make your case.  Messages that are rants, and all of you here know what actually constitutes a rant, are not making a cogent case about something, and will be ignored, at least by me.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

       ~ Brian Vogel

 


NVDA crashes when trying to forward Outlook messages

Janet Brandly
 

Hello,

 

Just FYI, The most recent RC version of NVDA crashes sometimes when trying to forward messages in Outlook. These are often ads/notices for things like virtual concerts etc. so there are probably a lot of pictures/graphics. If you like, I can send a sample message which crashed NVDA.

 

Thanks,

 

Janet


Re: NVDA and Outlook messages

 

On Thu, Feb 11, 2021 at 11:47 AM, Gene wrote:
Its worth trying. I don't know if it will solve the problem but it may make some things work better. This may account, in part, for why others aren't describing the same problem
-
I'm not contesting anything you've said.  If that does turn out to be true, there is another problem, because there is no reason that something designed to make Win10 Apps and controls more accessible should have any influence whatsoever when those are not what's being used.  It suggests "something's off" if it fixes a problem outside its intended scope.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

       ~ Brian Vogel

 


Re: NVDA and Outlook messages

Gene
 

Its worth trying. I don't know if it will solve the problem but it may make some things work better. This may account, in part, for why others aren't describing the same problem.

You can get it here:
https://addons.nvda-project.org/addons/wintenApps.en.html

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Steve Nutt
Sent: Thursday, February 11, 2021 10:38 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA and Outlook messages

Hi Jean,

No, I'm not using the Essentials add-on.

All the best

Steve

--
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77 Exeter Close
Stevenage
Hertfordshire
SG1 4PW
T: +44(0)1438-742286
M: +44(0)7956-334938
F: +44(0)1438-759589
E: steve@comproom.co.uk
W: https://www.comproom.co.uk

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: 11 February 2021 16:23
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA and Outlook messages

Also, are you using the Windows Essentials add-on? I have no idea if the add-on applies in this case, but I've seen in list discussions in the past, instances where a problem was solved by someone running it who hadn't before.

Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Thursday, February 11, 2021 9:34 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA and Outlook messages

On Thu, Feb 11, 2021 at 10:12 AM, Steve Nutt wrote:
Headings are not exposed, certainly in the newsletter style Emails I both receive and write myself.- As Gene has suggested, having actual examples to examine and work with is the only way this will ultimately be solved.

And this could be another of the many instances where (and this is not a criticism, it may not even be intentional, some tools are weird) if some non-standard way was used of coding the HTML, certain screen readers will handle "confusing situations" more gracefully. If the information is not "perfectly formatted" guesses have to be made, and depending on exactly how that's done one can end up with different results.

This is one of the main reasons for the old truism, "No matter what your favorite screen reader is, you need to have minimal proficiency with another, because there will be times where your favorite does not play well with something you need to access."

And none of the above is to say that there may not be an NVDA bug, but talking about this in the abstract, rather than testing with examples, is no way to determine that.

--


Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

~ Brian Vogel


Re: NVDA and Outlook messages

 

On Thu, Feb 11, 2021 at 11:38 AM, Steve Nutt wrote:
No, I'm not using the Essentials add-on.
-
And unless Joseph "snuck something in there that he's not telling anyone about" the Win10 App Essentials Add-On should have nothing to do with NVDAs behavior in a web browser or MS-Outlook.  From his own documentation of same on its add-on page:

This add-on is a collection of app modules for various Windows 10 apps, as well as enhancements and fixes for certain windows 10 controls.

The following app modules or support modules for some apps are included (see each app section for details on what is included):

  • Calculator (modern).
  • Calendar
  • Cortana (Conversations)
  • Mail
  • Maps
  • Microsoft Solitaire Collection
  • Microsoft Store
  • Modern keyboard (emoji panel/dictation/hardware input suggestions/cloud clipboard history/modern input method editors)
  • People
  • Settings (system settings, Windows+I)
  • Weather.
  • Miscellaneous modules for controls such as Start Menu tiles.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

       ~ Brian Vogel

 


Re: NVDA and Outlook messages

Steve Nutt
 

Hi Jean,

No, I'm not using the Essentials add-on.

All the best

Steve

--
Computer Room Services
77 Exeter Close
Stevenage
Hertfordshire
SG1 4PW
T: +44(0)1438-742286
M: +44(0)7956-334938
F: +44(0)1438-759589
E: steve@comproom.co.uk
W: https://www.comproom.co.uk

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: 11 February 2021 16:23
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA and Outlook messages

Also, are you using the Windows Essentials add-on? I have no idea if the add-on applies in this case, but I've seen in list discussions in the past, instances where a problem was solved by someone running it who hadn't before.

Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Thursday, February 11, 2021 9:34 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA and Outlook messages

On Thu, Feb 11, 2021 at 10:12 AM, Steve Nutt wrote:
Headings are not exposed, certainly in the newsletter style Emails I both receive and write myself.- As Gene has suggested, having actual examples to examine and work with is the only way this will ultimately be solved.

And this could be another of the many instances where (and this is not a criticism, it may not even be intentional, some tools are weird) if some non-standard way was used of coding the HTML, certain screen readers will handle "confusing situations" more gracefully. If the information is not "perfectly formatted" guesses have to be made, and depending on exactly how that's done one can end up with different results.

This is one of the main reasons for the old truism, "No matter what your favorite screen reader is, you need to have minimal proficiency with another, because there will be times where your favorite does not play well with something you need to access."

And none of the above is to say that there may not be an NVDA bug, but talking about this in the abstract, rather than testing with examples, is no way to determine that.

--


Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

~ Brian Vogel


Re: NVDA and Outlook messages

Gene
 

Also, are you using the Windows Essentials add-on? I have no idea if the add-on applies in this case, but I've seen in list discussions in the past, instances where a problem was solved by someone running it who hadn't before.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Thursday, February 11, 2021 9:34 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA and Outlook messages

On Thu, Feb 11, 2021 at 10:12 AM, Steve Nutt wrote:
Headings are not exposed, certainly in the newsletter style Emails I both receive and write myself.-
As Gene has suggested, having actual examples to examine and work with is the only way this will ultimately be solved.

And this could be another of the many instances where (and this is not a criticism, it may not even be intentional, some tools are weird) if some non-standard way was used of coding the HTML, certain screen readers will handle "confusing situations" more gracefully. If the information is not "perfectly formatted" guesses have to be made, and depending on exactly how that's done one can end up with different results.

This is one of the main reasons for the old truism, "No matter what your favorite screen reader is, you need to have minimal proficiency with another, because there will be times where your favorite does not play well with something you need to access."

And none of the above is to say that there may not be an NVDA bug, but talking about this in the abstract, rather than testing with examples, is no way to determine that.

--


Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

~ Brian Vogel


Re: NVDA and Outlook messages

 

Steve,

           I can't say what someone may experience in Outlook (or any other email client) since I read from the web interface.  But the H command in browse mode is landing me exactly where you'd expect, on the lines you state are headings in that message, when I'm reading your message via the web interface.

           Others will have to report what is occurring in their respective email clients when in the message, as HTML formatted messages should be "browsable" just like a web page is, and the commands should work the same way.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

       ~ Brian Vogel

 


Re: NVDA and Outlook messages

Steve Nutt
 

As it happens Brian, you’re right.  This must be something to do with some of the Emails I receive.  When I get another one, I will examine the HTML code and see if we can narrow it down.

 

Thanks.

 

All the best


Steve

 

--

Computer Room Services

77 Exeter Close

Stevenage

Hertfordshire

SG1 4PW

T: +44(0)1438-742286

M: +44(0)7956-334938

F: +44(0)1438-759589

E: steve@...

W: https://www.comproom.co.uk

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Steve Nutt
Sent: 11 February 2021 16:14
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA and Outlook messages

 

Hi Brian,

 

This is simple to illustrate.

 

This is a Heading Level 1.

This is not a heading.

This is a heading level 2.

This again is not a heading.

 

Now let’s post and see what NVDA makes of that.

 

All the best


Steve

--

Computer Room Services

77 Exeter Close

Stevenage

Hertfordshire

SG1 4PW

T: +44(0)1438-742286

M: +44(0)7956-334938

F: +44(0)1438-759589

E: steve@...

W: https://www.comproom.co.uk

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: 11 February 2021 15:34
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA and Outlook messages

 

On Thu, Feb 11, 2021 at 10:12 AM, Steve Nutt wrote:

Headings are not exposed, certainly in the newsletter style Emails I both receive and write myself.

-
As Gene has suggested, having actual examples to examine and work with is the only way this will ultimately be solved.

And this could be another of the many instances where (and this is not a criticism, it may not even be intentional, some tools are weird) if some non-standard way was used of coding the HTML, certain screen readers will handle "confusing situations" more gracefully.  If the information is not "perfectly formatted" guesses have to be made, and depending on exactly how that's done one can end up with different results.

This is one of the main reasons for the old truism, "No matter what your favorite screen reader is, you need to have minimal proficiency with another, because there will be times where your favorite does not play well with something you need to access."

And none of the above is to say that there may not be an NVDA bug, but talking about this in the abstract, rather than testing with examples, is no way to determine that.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

       ~ Brian Vogel

 


Re: NVDA and Outlook messages

Steve Nutt
 

Hi Brian,

 

This is simple to illustrate.

 

This is a Heading Level 1.

This is not a heading.

This is a heading level 2.

This again is not a heading.

 

Now let’s post and see what NVDA makes of that.

 

All the best


Steve

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T: +44(0)1438-742286

M: +44(0)7956-334938

F: +44(0)1438-759589

E: steve@...

W: https://www.comproom.co.uk

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: 11 February 2021 15:34
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA and Outlook messages

 

On Thu, Feb 11, 2021 at 10:12 AM, Steve Nutt wrote:

Headings are not exposed, certainly in the newsletter style Emails I both receive and write myself.

-
As Gene has suggested, having actual examples to examine and work with is the only way this will ultimately be solved.

And this could be another of the many instances where (and this is not a criticism, it may not even be intentional, some tools are weird) if some non-standard way was used of coding the HTML, certain screen readers will handle "confusing situations" more gracefully.  If the information is not "perfectly formatted" guesses have to be made, and depending on exactly how that's done one can end up with different results.

This is one of the main reasons for the old truism, "No matter what your favorite screen reader is, you need to have minimal proficiency with another, because there will be times where your favorite does not play well with something you need to access."

And none of the above is to say that there may not be an NVDA bug, but talking about this in the abstract, rather than testing with examples, is no way to determine that.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

       ~ Brian Vogel

 


Re: NVDA and Outlook messages

 

On Thu, Feb 11, 2021 at 10:12 AM, Steve Nutt wrote:
Headings are not exposed, certainly in the newsletter style Emails I both receive and write myself.
-
As Gene has suggested, having actual examples to examine and work with is the only way this will ultimately be solved.

And this could be another of the many instances where (and this is not a criticism, it may not even be intentional, some tools are weird) if some non-standard way was used of coding the HTML, certain screen readers will handle "confusing situations" more gracefully.  If the information is not "perfectly formatted" guesses have to be made, and depending on exactly how that's done one can end up with different results.

This is one of the main reasons for the old truism, "No matter what your favorite screen reader is, you need to have minimal proficiency with another, because there will be times where your favorite does not play well with something you need to access."

And none of the above is to say that there may not be an NVDA bug, but talking about this in the abstract, rather than testing with examples, is no way to determine that.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

       ~ Brian Vogel

 


Re: NVDA and Outlook messages

Steve Nutt
 

Hi Joseph,

 

I did try that, but it doesn’t work.

 

Headings are not exposed, certainly in the newsletter style Emails I both receive and write myself.

 

With Narrator though, it works perfectly.

 

All the best


Steve

 

--

Computer Room Services

77 Exeter Close

Stevenage

Hertfordshire

SG1 4PW

T: +44(0)1438-742286

M: +44(0)7956-334938

F: +44(0)1438-759589

E: steve@...

W: https://www.comproom.co.uk

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Joseph Lee
Sent: 11 February 2021 08:54
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA and Outlook messages

 

Hi,

Try if Word+UIA combo works:

  1. Open NVDA menu/Preferences/Settings.
  2. Select “Advanced” panel.
  3. After checking “I understand” checkbox, check “Use UI Automation to access Microsoft Word document controls when available” checkbox and click OK.
  4. Try reading messages in Outlook. At this point NvDA will recognize Outlook messages as a UIA document.

 

Note that there are issues with UIA and Word document controls at the moment, but hopefully recent NVDA releases (including upcoming 2020.4) should improve things a bit.

At some point I’ll write a description of these advanced UIA settings (provided I need to explain more than what user guide does at the moment).

Cheers,

Joseph

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Steve Nutt
Sent: Thursday, February 11, 2021 12:47 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA and Outlook messages

 

Hi,

 

Again, I am already in browse mode.  I can see only links, not headings or other controls in Emails.  As I say, NVDA and Outlook is quite a poor experience at the moment I’d say.  I’m glad I found the Outlook add-on though, because it does give alt number access to header fields.  But try Outlook with Narrator and you’ll see how much better it is.

 

All the best


Steve

 

--

Computer Room Services

77 Exeter Close

Stevenage

Hertfordshire

SG1 4PW

T: +44(0)1438-742286

M: +44(0)7956-334938

F: +44(0)1438-759589

E: steve@...

W: https://www.comproom.co.uk

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Afik Souffir
Sent: 10 February 2021 20:48
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA and Outlook messages

 

 

Hi,

 

No, you don’t need UI automation to navigate by headings, links, etc.

Make sure that browse mode is active, when you are in email message, press caps lock and space.

Hopes this helps

 

Afik

 


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> on behalf of Bob Cavanaugh <cavbob1993@...>
Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 2021 10:40:41 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA and Outlook messages

 

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think this is what the UI
Automation checkbox under advanced in settings is for. I can't
remember what it was I was reading recently when I decided to try to
navigate by heading just for the heck of it and it actually worked.
Outlook seems to be a program where using UI Automation is a must, as
this has solved most of my problems with it. I do, however, think NVDA
does need a bit of improvement in the following areas when working
with Outlook:
1. When changing navigation methods, NVDA is quite slow to respond in
emails containing lots of graphics. For instance, I've talked a lot
about emails I get from Groupon on this list. When navigating those in
Outlook, I usually use NVDA+down arrow to read initially, then stop
it, and use tab to navigate. In some of those emails though, tab just
presents unlabeled links though, so I have to use NVDA+down to read
again. When doing this, there's a half second or so delay between the
time I give the read command and the time it actually starts reading.
2. When deleting an email from your deleted items folder, NVDA
sometimes reads the subject line of the just deleted message instead
of the subject line of the message you're currently viewing. When
deleting a message from the Inbox or a saved folder, NVDA says nothing
until you give it another command.
3. As discussed a month or so ago on this list, with certain versions
of Outlook, you have to use your down arrow key to read a suggestion
when typing an address in the to field of an email.
Hope this helps, and hope someone can correct me if I have the name of
that checkbox wrong, but I think it's use UI Automation.

On 2/10/21, Steve Nutt <steve@...> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
>
>
> I am testing an Email marketing platform called EmailOctopus for use in my
> business.
>
>
>
> One thing I noticed about NVDA, having been a JAWS user for years, but now
> moving over more to NVDA, is that it doesn't render HTML Emails correctly.
>
>
>
> For example, you never see headings in Emails.  If I send myself a test
> message and read it in JAWS, I can jump with H to all the headings and know
> that the formatting is correct.  With NVDA, I just get No Next Heading.  In
> fact, all the formatting is completely shot.
>
>
>
> Is there any way we could get NVDA to render Outlook HTML messages as they
> should be rendered, with headings intact?
>
>
>
> Thanks for any help.
>
>
>
> All the best
>
>
> Steve
>
>
>
> --
>
> Computer Room Services
>
> 77 Exeter Close
>
> Stevenage
>
> Hertfordshire
>
> SG1 4PW
>
> T: +44(0)1438-742286
>
> M: +44(0)7956-334938
>
> F: +44(0)1438-759589
>
> E:  <mailto:steve@...> steve@...
>
> W:  <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.comproom.co.uk%2F&amp;data=04%7C01%7C%7Cc25863fcf0d540d4751708d8ce042583%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637485864492450005%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&amp;sdata=kbNHa4LakBScbHTM6pE9CguvioRlQ354nquTFz6gR1o%3D&amp;reserved=0> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.comproom.co.uk%2F&amp;data=04%7C01%7C%7Cc25863fcf0d540d4751708d8ce042583%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637485864492459997%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&amp;sdata=htyPmc3WcvVrhNtNzq7IVwcuq9Min3HGw7RC3rGYx0g%3D&amp;reserved=0
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>



locked [SOLVED] Heavy problems with nvda_2020.4rc1 and Visual Studio 2019 latest

Yeti
 

Hi Joseph and All,

have you considered enabling selective UIA event
registration?

I just did it and it seams to fix my Problem.
Of course, I won't see what it's really worth until
tomorrow,
when I really work with it. For the moment, the
RC1 seems to run more smoothly with this setting than the
stable
2020.3 did.
Yesterday I worked with this setting, the RC1 and VS2019 all
day.

I didn't even have to restart the IDE, which used to be
necessary every 1..2..3 hours with the 2020.3.

Thanks again for the hint and NVDA in general.

Ad Astra

Yeti

And by the way:
Locking the original subject was not the best of all
possible options, because this answer belongs there and
nowhere else!

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