Re: Unnecessary verbiage that wastes my time
Sharni-Lee Ward
Perhaps it's a "me" thing. I find email responses much slower on the whole, which is why I tried to turn to skype groups a while back for more prompt assistance. I would personally prefer a more realtime interaction rather than waiting hours for a response that might not be entirely helpful.
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I will admit, however, that many of you are not as young (twenty-nine) as me, nor do many of you have as much free time. And perhaps I'm just impatient when I want a problem solved and should work on that rather than demand an entire group change how they do things for my own convenience.
On 8/08/2020 10:02 am, Luke Davis wrote:
I completely agree with Brian.
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Re: Unnecessary verbiage that wastes my time
Luke Davis
I completely agree with Brian.
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For me, it's far easier to write a well worded and detailed email, with considered steps to solve problems that people can refer back to and follow, than to have to get involved with an audio service where you have to be much more real-time. Anyone is free to create anything they want for interaction about NVDA, but I wonder if getting the really experienced technical people to engage with it is likely. Personally, I just don't have time for that kind of headache. Luke
On Fri, 7 Aug 2020, Brian Vogel wrote:
On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 06:58 PM, Sharni-Lee Ward wrote:
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Re: Unnecessary verbiage that wastes my time
On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 06:58 PM, Sharni-Lee Ward wrote:
. . . Discord server or something by now, though? Email lists are a bit old-school at this point.1. Groups.io has a full web interface and can be accessed as an online forum, which is precisely what I do. Those who prefer e-mail have that option, and based on the number of groups on the site, and how quickly it grew, "old school" still has a lot of fans. 2. With regard to Discord, and this is coming from a tech geek, mind you, remember the sage observation of Bill Gray: "A lot of what appears to be progress is just so much technological rococo." I've never seen the attraction after my brief interactions with it. Others, of course, feel differently. -- Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363 A gentleman is one who never hurts anyone's feelings unintentionally. ~ Oscar Wilde
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Re: Unnecessary verbiage that wastes my time
Jesse Farquharson
Regarding Discord, I recently created a server for discussing all things audio, but it has been suggested that I create specific areas for the NVDA and JAWS communities. So the groundwork is already there. If anyone wants to join the server or wants to express their interest in such an area, please contact me off list.
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Re: Unnecessary verbiage that wastes my time
Sharni-Lee Ward
I might be interested in putting in my two cents on this topic. Shouldn't the NVDA community have a Discord server or something by now, though? Email lists are a bit old-school at this point.
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On 8/08/2020 1:35 am, Gene wrote:
I don't know who is interested in the topic of what is announced during web page navigation but I'm going to start a topic on what is helpful and useful and what is just clutter on the chat list so those interested may want to join. The chat list is a low traffic list.
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Re: A possible bug
Gene
I'll send it.
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Its good to know the problem isn't a fault with NVDA. Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: Greg Williams Sent: Friday, August 07, 2020 2:43 PM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] A possible bug That would be fine with me. Also I forgot to say that I verified that removing the aria-label from the link did allow NVDA to see the h2 tag as it does in the other links. Greg On 8/7/2020 3:28 PM, Gene wrote: I'm not sure if I have the technical knowledge to present this to The Times. Do you object if I forward part of your remarks that describe the problem?
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Re: A possible bug
Greg Williams
That would be fine with me. Also I forgot to say that I verified that removing the aria-label from the link did allow NVDA to see the h2 tag as it does in the other links.
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Greg
On 8/7/2020 3:28 PM, Gene wrote:
I'm not sure if I have the technical knowledge to present this to The Times. Do you object if I forward part of your remarks that describe the problem?
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Re: A possible bug
Gene
I'm not sure if I have the technical knowledge to present this to The Times. Do you object if I forward part of your remarks that describe the problem?
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Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: Greg Williams Sent: Friday, August 07, 2020 2:02 PM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] A possible bug It is an issue with the HTML. For whatever reason, they coded the links under the opinion section differently than the rest of the links. They used accessibility badly which made it worse than if they had done nothing. In the opinion section, the put an aria-label on the <a> tag for the link; this tells assistive technology to ignore any other text in the link. The h2 tag is wrapped inside the <a> tag which means that it also gets ignored by the assitive technology. I imagine that the reason the old version of NVDA detected the headings is that it is old enough that it did not handle aria-labels and so just ignored them and picked up the nested content including the h2. I will stop here and refrain from giving my opinion on the coding practices in the webpage. Greg On 8/6/2020 9:46 PM, Gene wrote: I haven't asked The Times. I thought it was a problem with NVDA since mhy old version recognizes them as headings. I haven't used JAWS to any extent for years but it might be useful for someone using a current JAWS to see if these links are seen as headings.
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Re: A possible bug
Greg Williams
It is an issue with the HTML. For whatever reason, they coded the links under the opinion section differently than the rest of the links. They used accessibility badly which made it worse than if they had done nothing. In the opinion section, the put an aria-label on the <a> tag for the link; this tells assistive technology to ignore any other text in the link. The h2 tag is wrapped inside the <a> tag which means that it also gets ignored by the assitive technology.
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I imagine that the reason the old version of NVDA detected the headings is that it is old enough that it did not handle aria-labels and so just ignored them and picked up the nested content including the h2. I will stop here and refrain from giving my opinion on the coding practices in the webpage. Greg
On 8/6/2020 9:46 PM, Gene wrote:
I haven't asked The Times. I thought it was a problem with NVDA since mhy old version recognizes them as headings. I haven't used JAWS to any extent for years but it might be useful for someone using a current JAWS to see if these links are seen as headings.
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hims Qbraille XL list
Afik Souffir
Hello all
I've created a Qbraille XL list for your questions and suggestions.
Feel free to join and distribute it out.
The subscription address is q-braille-xl+subscribe@groups.io
Cordialement,
Afik Souffir
Portable: 0505782208 Addresse email
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Re: Unnecessary verbiage that wastes my time
CARLOS-ESTEBAN <carlosestebanpianista@...>
Hello. Well, a possible option is use the reader mode of the browsers. In Firefox and new Microsoft Edge press f9. In Chrome, go to the page chrome://flags. In the edit box search, write "reader mode" and press enter. After, press tab and enabled this feature. Restart Chrome and after you can press f6, and tab two times for the button enable reader mode and press enter. An other solution is use the add-on Virtual Revieu, but I dont know if this addon work in web pages. Regards.
El 7/8/2020 a las 9:46, Felix G.
escribió:
Hi! I've been reading along and I know this feeling. I often refer to it as the user experience that nobody designed. On the one hand there's a screen reader developer, on the other there's an app developer or web designer. They don't know each other, and yet their decisions converge on our experience of their products. In the sighted world nobody would get away with it, but we get translations of translations, almost never what someone consciously designed. Best, Felix Am Do., 6. Aug. 2020 um 17:58 Uhr schrieb Brian Vogel <britechguy@...>:On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 10:34 AM, Gene wrote: People would never put up with a human reader announcing all this clutter. I'd say that's absolutely true, but they'd probably also expect a human reader to say something about the fact that there is a figure/image present and what it illustrates as a part of the reading, unless the person their reading for has explicitly requested they only read the main text. I actually feel your pain, and have had exactly that same feeling many, many times with multiple screen readers. I hope that someday there arrives AI sophisticated enough to screen read the way "your average sighted person" would likely take in looking at content. Heaven knows we virtually never look at scads of the navigation links and the like at the outset, but the main page content first. But at this point in time, since a screen reader itself has no idea, really, of what it is you (any you) are looking for on a given page it offers "way too much" rather than allowing you to possibly miss the presence of something. It would be nice if all of these sorts of things were arranged in "chunks" of announcements that fit a certain class, and that you could have the option of turning off the entire class with one checkbox, or going through the individual things announced and unchecking the ones you explicitly don't want while retaining the others. And do I ever know what a PITA that would be to code, and for the user to slog through, but in any really complex system where a high level of customization is wanted or needed, this is how its obtained. -- Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363 A gentleman is one who never hurts anyone's feelings unintentionally. ~ Oscar Wilde --
Carlos Esteban Martínez Macías. Músico (pianista) y también ayuda a usuarios ciegos con el uso de lectores de pantalla y tecnología. Experto certificado en el lector de pantalla NVDA.
Musicien (pianist) and also help to the blind people in the use of screen readers and technology. Certified expert in the screen reader NVDA.
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Re: Unnecessary verbiage that wastes my time
Gene
I don't know who is interested in the topic of what is announced during web page navigation but I'm going to start a topic on what is helpful and useful and what is just clutter on the chat list so those interested may want to join. The chat list is a low traffic list.
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Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: Joseph Lee Sent: Friday, August 07, 2020 10:21 AM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] Unnecessary verbiage that wastes my time Hi, It's a combination of user expectations, what document writers wrote, and specifications. In case of "figure/out of figure", it's more towards ARIA specs, how web authors wrote their sites 9including which framework is in use), and how NVDA got such an information. Cheers, Joseph -----Original Message----- From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene Sent: Friday, August 7, 2020 8:19 AM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] Unnecessary verbiage that wastes my time I should clarify, based on what Brian said, that I don't object to the text being read in this instance or in general. I object to figure and out of figure being announced . Just as I object to announcement of bloc quotes being on. Its not the text being read I object to but people in general don't benefit from hearing such information. It seems to me that the designers should consider what is useful infrmation in terms of navigating and in terms of what people generally use when determining what should be announced by default. I don't know how they determine what is announced. Gene -----Original Message----- From: Felix G. Sent: Friday, August 07, 2020 9:46 AM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] Unnecessary verbiage that wastes my time Hi! I've been reading along and I know this feeling. I often refer to it as the user experience that nobody designed. On the one hand there's a screen reader developer, on the other there's an app developer or web designer. They don't know each other, and yet their decisions converge on our experience of their products. In the sighted world nobody would get away with it, but we get translations of translations, almost never what someone consciously designed. Best, Felix Am Do., 6. Aug. 2020 um 17:58 Uhr schrieb Brian Vogel <britechguy@gmail.com>:
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Re: Unnecessary verbiage that wastes my time
Hi,
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It's a combination of user expectations, what document writers wrote, and specifications. In case of "figure/out of figure", it's more towards ARIA specs, how web authors wrote their sites 9including which framework is in use), and how NVDA got such an information. Cheers, Joseph
-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene Sent: Friday, August 7, 2020 8:19 AM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] Unnecessary verbiage that wastes my time I should clarify, based on what Brian said, that I don't object to the text being read in this instance or in general. I object to figure and out of figure being announced . Just as I object to announcement of bloc quotes being on. Its not the text being read I object to but people in general don't benefit from hearing such information. It seems to me that the designers should consider what is useful infrmation in terms of navigating and in terms of what people generally use when determining what should be announced by default. I don't know how they determine what is announced. Gene -----Original Message----- From: Felix G. Sent: Friday, August 07, 2020 9:46 AM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] Unnecessary verbiage that wastes my time Hi! I've been reading along and I know this feeling. I often refer to it as the user experience that nobody designed. On the one hand there's a screen reader developer, on the other there's an app developer or web designer. They don't know each other, and yet their decisions converge on our experience of their products. In the sighted world nobody would get away with it, but we get translations of translations, almost never what someone consciously designed. Best, Felix Am Do., 6. Aug. 2020 um 17:58 Uhr schrieb Brian Vogel <britechguy@gmail.com>:
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Re: Unnecessary verbiage that wastes my time
Gene
I should clarify, based on what Brian said, that I don't object to the text being read in this instance or in general. I object to figure and out of figure being announced . Just as I object to announcement of bloc quotes being on. Its not the text being read I object to but people in general don't benefit from hearing such information. It seems to me that the designers should consider what is useful infrmation in terms of navigating and in terms of what people generally use when determining what should be announced by default. I don't know how they determine what is announced.
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Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: Felix G. Sent: Friday, August 07, 2020 9:46 AM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] Unnecessary verbiage that wastes my time Hi! I've been reading along and I know this feeling. I often refer to it as the user experience that nobody designed. On the one hand there's a screen reader developer, on the other there's an app developer or web designer. They don't know each other, and yet their decisions converge on our experience of their products. In the sighted world nobody would get away with it, but we get translations of translations, almost never what someone consciously designed. Best, Felix Am Do., 6. Aug. 2020 um 17:58 Uhr schrieb Brian Vogel <britechguy@gmail.com>:
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Re: Unnecessary verbiage that wastes my time
On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 10:46 AM, Felix G. wrote:
but we get translations of translations, almost never what someone consciously designed.- Because, at least to some extent, that's what happens when you translate one sense to another. There is no way to make a great deal of what "makes perfect sense" in the sensory idiom for which it was designed to have that perfect sense in another. All accessibility is a workaround. Not that I don't understand what you're saying, as I've said it, too, but it is not something you can ever entirely get away from. And you also say, "In the sighted world nobody would get away with it." And to a large extent, that's true, but that's not because it's "the sighted world" but because the things designed are being primarily designed with the sense of sight in mind. Given that the vast majority of the world can see, and that the medium itself is meant to be consumed via sight, that's what makes the most sense, wouldn't you say? Expecting websites and print media to be primarily designed with the blind in mind would be akin to expecting music to be composed primarily with the deaf in mind. [And that's not to excuse plain sloppiness and inaccessibility, either.] -- Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363 A gentleman is one who never hurts anyone's feelings unintentionally. ~ Oscar Wilde
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Re: Unnecessary verbiage that wastes my time
Felix G.
Hi!
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I've been reading along and I know this feeling. I often refer to it as the user experience that nobody designed. On the one hand there's a screen reader developer, on the other there's an app developer or web designer. They don't know each other, and yet their decisions converge on our experience of their products. In the sighted world nobody would get away with it, but we get translations of translations, almost never what someone consciously designed. Best, Felix Am Do., 6. Aug. 2020 um 17:58 Uhr schrieb Brian Vogel <britechguy@gmail.com>:
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Nvda and Thunderbird
Jarek.Krcmar
Hello everyone,
I already have a problem with Thunderbird solved. 1. In Thunderbird it is necessary to uncheck the status bar, 2. in Nvda Presentation of objects it is necessary to uncheck context help and notifications. Regards -- Jarek
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Re: Object Navigation - Where and How Do You Use It?
Chris Mullins
Hi Brian I understand you are using Object navigation in this case to gain knowledge of how to use it but I thought I would make you aware of the Virtual Review add-on. With Virtual Review installed, pressing NVDA+Ctrl+w when the About window is in focus, will open a temporary textual window containing the information from the About window you can’t access in situe using the keyboard. You can arrow around the virtual review window to read the info then press escape to dismiss it and return focus back to the About window itself.
Cheers Chris
from the In
From: Brian Vogel
Sent: 06 August 2020 23:41 To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] Object Navigation - Where and How Do You Use It?
On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 06:35 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:
- Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363 A gentleman is one who never hurts anyone's feelings unintentionally. ~ Oscar Wilde
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Re: Speech crackling/breaking up in latest NVDA
Sharni-Lee Ward
Oops, sorry, thought I was responding to someon in private.
For context, I checked Asus Live Update, and was able to get the
information that there were no new updates via the NVDA+b command.
The interface was otherwise inaccessible, even with review
commands.
On 7/08/2020 2:09 pm, Sharni-Lee Ward
wrote:
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Re: Speech crackling/breaking up in latest NVDA
Sharni-Lee Ward
I told you, the interface is inaccessible. I cannot press any
buttons to do anything with. I was lucky to get the information I
did.
On 7/08/2020 1:56 pm, Shaun Everiss
wrote:
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