Date   

Re: Golden Cursor December 23rd snapshot/emergency patch posted

Gene New Zealand <hurrikennyandopo@...>
 

Hi Joseph

Thanks again.


Thanks gene nz



On 12/24/2017 4:38 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi,

I usually don’t post things about what’s under development on add-ons website. The corrected commands will go up once 2.0 stable is out.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene New Zealand
Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2017 7:31 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor December 23rd snapshot/emergency patch posted

 

Hi Joseph

 

Just checked and the commands are correct now if you access them from inside of the add on manager for golden cursor.

 

but i would hate to say this if you go to the get add- ons page under the golden cursor page it is incorrect there for those same 2 commands.

I always thought when you opened the help section under the add on manager section it would take you to the same place but seems not. so is there a copy on or in the add on?

I have never checked and i guess there would be there just in case you did not have internet access?

Or is this still to be done?

 

sorry to give you some more greys.

 

Gene nz

 

 

 

 

 

On 12/24/2017 1:39 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi everyone,

 

Thanks to quick feedback from a user, an emergency patch for Golden Cursor December 23rd snapshot is now up:

https://addons.nvda-project.org/addons/goldenCursor.en.html

 

Thanks.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

--

Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related material at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net Regardless of where you are in New Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you can use a copy of the NVDA screen reader on one of their computers. To find out which locations (or location) is near to you please visit http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries (Aotearoa People's Network Kaharoa). To find an NVDA certified expert near you, please visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified individuals from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA expert exam.


--
Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related material at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net Regardless of where you are in New Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you can use a copy of the NVDA screen reader on one of their computers. To find out which locations (or location) is near to you please visit http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries (Aotearoa People's Network Kaharoa). To find an NVDA certified expert near you, please visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified individuals from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA expert exam.


Re: I'm dissappointed

 

Hmmm my opinion is that we should continue as we are but as we get used more and more especial in businesses, we may have to get some more help.

What that means is unknown.

At any rate its been made possible to stop any company, ie vfo or ms to take control of us say you must buy jaws and close us down.

However if we are going to become a major thing we should start working with mainstream companies more and more.

That may mean allowing some of our opensource bits to go away at least for business use.

That could I guess develop into a payed for business version where we would have to get a part share in sales.

Even if we do go closed source and get a business version even if we let vfo handle  some of that.

We could do it in a way where there is still an opensource version which we control and which could go to developing countries and home users.

Ofcause if there was a pro version then I'd buy it, we would need some way to regulate the price if we ever did.

One thing we would have to do is have some sort of rule that states that anyone using our code would have to be complient with standards.

If someone included an intercepter but then made it so our stuff would only run with an installed driver then it would defeat the purpose.

On 24/12/2017 9:09 a.m., Carlos wrote:
Hello All:

    This discussion is going in the direction of at some point NV Access handing control of NVDA to Microsoft.

    There are many issues that go into maintaining a software project.  Keeping the software up to date, being able to offer some sort of technical support mechanism for users, having a wide variety of code contributions to draw from, and of course community participation!

    That's why so many open source project fail in their first two years!  So, the time has come for NV Access to decide if they will continue going at it alone?  Or, if for the good of the project turn it over to an organization that has all the bases covered!

    Unfortunatly! A community based project can only go so far as its ability to provide all the elements needed to keep the project active and vibrant!

    Good exmaples of this are projects like LibreOffice and The Apache Foundation.

    So! The NVDA developers and the community as a whole really do need to think about the direction of the project.  And, if they are going to be able to keep it growing in its current state?

    Have a very happy and thoughtful 2018!



On 12/23/2017 11:30 AM, Rosemarie Chavarria wrote:
I second that.



-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Angela Delicata
Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2017 11:25 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] I'm dissappointed

This would be the greatest solution.


Il 23/12/2017 20:22, Rui Fontes ha scritto:
I think the better solution is each NVDA country community having some
kind of support center, by phone or by mail...

At least in Portugal we serve as a kind of support center for NVDA...
by phone, Skype or mail...

Regards,

Rui Fontes
Tiflotecnia, Lda.


Às 18:55 de 23/12/2017, Shaun Everiss escreveu:
Well nvda  does not use a traditional support line, the email list is
support for most part.

I think there is a toll call service in australia that the devs run
which you can buy, all reader groups have a trained tech support call
centre, we have mike and maybe other devs doing support but its not a
full support group.

Being that this is opensource and not payed for like jaws I am not
sure how we can fix this shortfall.

Technically I guess we can have groups on skype and or whats app for
nvda support but you really need someone to pick up that phone and
dial support.

Here is the thing, a number of  devs and a few are payed but most of
us are not.

Having used jaws, and dolphin products while I have needed support
for most of my comercial product use its never been that much and
email has been most of it but if I need a responce the phone is
always the best especially if the computer does not work right.




On 24/12/2017 4:43 a.m., susan@cantos.us wrote:
I am a teacher of students with visual impairments. One of my
students is learning to use a screen reader and I decided to adopt
NVDA. Tireless hours training have been spent training myself
through videos, websites, youtubes, etc. I started training my
student and implementing it with his school work. We have found what
works one day does not always work the next day. What has been
frustrating is how difficult it is to get tech support for NVDA on
the spot as we sometimes need in the educational setting. We have
very limited hours in a school day to complete our training and work
with students with visual impairments. Their curriculum extends
beyond the core curriculum as we all know and efficiency with
support is critical. I am starting to use JAWS with my student and
it has been seemless and working well. I really want to adopt NVDA
but it has been very frustrating. We teach our students to
brainstorm and contact tech support when needed but NVDA does not
make it easy for our students to do this. Our students are the
future of NVDA as future screen readers. Thoughts?



.


---
Questa email è stata esaminata alla ricerca di virus da AVG.
http://www.avg.com






Re: Golden Cursor December 23rd snapshot/emergency patch posted

 

Hi,

Version 1.x is under maintenance. Once 2.0 is out, 1.x will no longer be supported.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene New Zealand
Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2017 7:40 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor December 23rd snapshot/emergency patch posted

 

Hi again

 

I forgot to say did the stable version also get the commands changed? I only checked for the dev version as that was what i downloaded.

 

I would have to check on another machine with the earlier version unless some one else can tell you.

I am guessing they would be the same 2 that are wrong?


by the way thanks for all you have done for the community this year and hope you have a or some time with your family and friends  over this period and may you have safe travel where ever you go over this period.
 

Gene nz

 

 

On 12/24/2017 4:30 PM, Gene New Zealand wrote:

Hi Joseph

 

Just checked and the commands are correct now if you access them from inside of the add on manager for golden cursor.

 

but i would hate to say this if you go to the get add- ons page under the golden cursor page it is incorrect there for those same 2 commands.

I always thought when you opened the help section under the add on manager section it would take you to the same place but seems not. so is there a copy on or in the add on?

I have never checked and i guess there would be there just in case you did not have internet access?

Or is this still to be done?

 

sorry to give you some more greys.

 

Gene nz

 

 

 

 

 

On 12/24/2017 1:39 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi everyone,

 

Thanks to quick feedback from a user, an emergency patch for Golden Cursor December 23rd snapshot is now up:

https://addons.nvda-project.org/addons/goldenCursor.en.html

 

Thanks.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

--

Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related material at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net Regardless of where you are in New Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you can use a copy of the NVDA screen reader on one of their computers. To find out which locations (or location) is near to you please visit http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries (Aotearoa People's Network Kaharoa). To find an NVDA certified expert near you, please visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified individuals from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA expert exam.

 

--

Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related material at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net Regardless of where you are in New Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you can use a copy of the NVDA screen reader on one of their computers. To find out which locations (or location) is near to you please visit http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries (Aotearoa People's Network Kaharoa). To find an NVDA certified expert near you, please visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified individuals from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA expert exam.


Re: Golden Cursor December 23rd snapshot/emergency patch posted

Gene New Zealand <hurrikennyandopo@...>
 

Hi again


I forgot to say did the stable version also get the commands changed? I only checked for the dev version as that was what i downloaded.


I would have to check on another machine with the earlier version unless some one else can tell you.

I am guessing they would be the same 2 that are wrong?


by the way thanks for all you have done for the community this year and hope you have a or some time with your family and friends  over this period and may you have safe travel where ever you go over this period.
 

Gene nz



On 12/24/2017 4:30 PM, Gene New Zealand wrote:

Hi Joseph


Just checked and the commands are correct now if you access them from inside of the add on manager for golden cursor.


but i would hate to say this if you go to the get add- ons page under the golden cursor page it is incorrect there for those same 2 commands.

I always thought when you opened the help section under the add on manager section it would take you to the same place but seems not. so is there a copy on or in the add on?

I have never checked and i guess there would be there just in case you did not have internet access?

Or is this still to be done?


sorry to give you some more greys.


Gene nz






On 12/24/2017 1:39 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi everyone,

 

Thanks to quick feedback from a user, an emergency patch for Golden Cursor December 23rd snapshot is now up:

https://addons.nvda-project.org/addons/goldenCursor.en.html

 

Thanks.

Cheers,

Joseph


--
Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related material at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net Regardless of where you are in New Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you can use a copy of the NVDA screen reader on one of their computers. To find out which locations (or location) is near to you please visit http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries (Aotearoa People's Network Kaharoa). To find an NVDA certified expert near you, please visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified individuals from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA expert exam.

--
Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related material at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net Regardless of where you are in New Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you can use a copy of the NVDA screen reader on one of their computers. To find out which locations (or location) is near to you please visit http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries (Aotearoa People's Network Kaharoa). To find an NVDA certified expert near you, please visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified individuals from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA expert exam.


Re: Golden Cursor December 23rd snapshot/emergency patch posted

 

Hi,

I usually don’t post things about what’s under development on add-ons website. The corrected commands will go up once 2.0 stable is out.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene New Zealand
Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2017 7:31 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor December 23rd snapshot/emergency patch posted

 

Hi Joseph

 

Just checked and the commands are correct now if you access them from inside of the add on manager for golden cursor.

 

but i would hate to say this if you go to the get add- ons page under the golden cursor page it is incorrect there for those same 2 commands.

I always thought when you opened the help section under the add on manager section it would take you to the same place but seems not. so is there a copy on or in the add on?

I have never checked and i guess there would be there just in case you did not have internet access?

Or is this still to be done?

 

sorry to give you some more greys.

 

Gene nz

 

 

 

 

 

On 12/24/2017 1:39 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi everyone,

 

Thanks to quick feedback from a user, an emergency patch for Golden Cursor December 23rd snapshot is now up:

https://addons.nvda-project.org/addons/goldenCursor.en.html

 

Thanks.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

--

Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related material at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net Regardless of where you are in New Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you can use a copy of the NVDA screen reader on one of their computers. To find out which locations (or location) is near to you please visit http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries (Aotearoa People's Network Kaharoa). To find an NVDA certified expert near you, please visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified individuals from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA expert exam.


Re: Change.org Petition: Make Movies Accessible to the Blind

 

This is about DVS, mostly in movie theaters.

On 12/23/2017 22:29, Lino Morales wrote:
Noah. Movies for the most part are already accessible. Its called DVS. That's all I'll say.


On 12/23/2017 10:26 PM, Noah Carver via Groups.Io wrote:
Hi All,

This email might be off topic to this list, so if someone could give me some guidance it would be appreciated.

I have been doing some advocacy work for descriptive audio, and have written a Change.org petition. Have a look and see if you might sign and share with others.

https://www.change.org/p/the-walt-disney-company-make-movies-accessible-to-the-blind?recruiter=844835478&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=copylink&utm_campaign=share_petition&utm_term=share_petition

Yours,

Noah Carver




Re: Golden Cursor December 23rd snapshot/emergency patch posted

Gene New Zealand <hurrikennyandopo@...>
 

Hi Joseph


Just checked and the commands are correct now if you access them from inside of the add on manager for golden cursor.


but i would hate to say this if you go to the get add- ons page under the golden cursor page it is incorrect there for those same 2 commands.

I always thought when you opened the help section under the add on manager section it would take you to the same place but seems not. so is there a copy on or in the add on?

I have never checked and i guess there would be there just in case you did not have internet access?

Or is this still to be done?


sorry to give you some more greys.


Gene nz






On 12/24/2017 1:39 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi everyone,

 

Thanks to quick feedback from a user, an emergency patch for Golden Cursor December 23rd snapshot is now up:

https://addons.nvda-project.org/addons/goldenCursor.en.html

 

Thanks.

Cheers,

Joseph


--
Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related material at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net Regardless of where you are in New Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you can use a copy of the NVDA screen reader on one of their computers. To find out which locations (or location) is near to you please visit http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries (Aotearoa People's Network Kaharoa). To find an NVDA certified expert near you, please visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified individuals from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA expert exam.


Re: Change.org Petition: Make Movies Accessible to the Blind

Lino Morales
 

Noah. Movies for the most part are already accessible. Its called DVS. That's all I'll say.

On 12/23/2017 10:26 PM, Noah Carver via Groups.Io wrote:
Hi All,

This email might be off topic to this list, so if someone could give me some guidance it would be appreciated.

I have been doing some advocacy work for descriptive audio, and have written a Change.org petition. Have a look and see if you might sign and share with others.

https://www.change.org/p/the-walt-disney-company-make-movies-accessible-to-the-blind?recruiter=844835478&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=copylink&utm_campaign=share_petition&utm_term=share_petition

Yours,

Noah Carver


Re: A few thoughts: Web Aim survey, quantity versus quality, feeling burnt out and tutorials

Sky Mundell
 

I totally agree with you. You are absolutely right.  Screen readers should certainly be a social impact. The reason there is capital invested in it is because the agencies are the ones who are funding the capital.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Adriani Botez
Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2017 7:08 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] A few thoughts: Web Aim survey, quantity versus quality, feeling burnt out and tutorials

 

Brian,

 

With respect to investing money globally to make screen reader users more computer literate, well believe or not there was always a solution for that. A screen reader should imply a social movement and not a gain of capital out of selling. There are lots of development institutions, Christian Blind Mission, blind federations and lots of other non governamental organizations which support everything which gives people access to education, information and technology. But in the last 30 years, many people hoped to gain money out of selling licenses and did not really concentrate on learning the user detailed aspects on how to use that software. Thus, users became more and more change resistent because they invested lot of time to learn by themselves how to use it productively. In my opinion, we should not only think about technical aspects of a screen reader, but also about social impact and user interaction.

 

Best

Adriani

 

Von meinem iPhone gesendet


Am 24.12.2017 um 04:44 schrieb Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io <bglists@...>:

Certainly I do understand the burned out part of this its the same for all volunteers. if we are good at what we do we are in demand and take on more and more. it was only a comment from somebody else that made me try to bring a sense of realism to life. You cannot be a one man fixer of everything, and the cemeteries are full of people who were indispensable.

 Most screenreader users are just that, users, many of us know the basics of what is going on, but really, its now so complex its beyond all but the few to grasp it all.

 Obviously as we kind of slip into a world very much like we used to have in the 80s, where computers run lots of different operating systems and even windows differs  in the internals between many different systems, the problems of access move from the screenreader to the platform.

 that is, NVDA will probably be OK on mainstream Windows computers for some years, but with tablets, phones and various different processors and operating systems now coming in, its going to be the user who has to change and become expert in many more interfaces, as clearly, what we use in Windows today with a keyboard may not fit in any way the interface of the future.

Sadly the problem is as it always has been, training and the cost and indeed the ability of blind people particularly the older ones to actually grasp the abstract concepts and enable them to see equivalents  and have a grasp of what is actually going on.

 I really think that somebody needs to invest a lot more money globally in trying to get more blind people computer literate, but its just not happening, so although in theory we have access, not everyone will be able to actually use it.

 

Change is life after all, and people going to take other jobs is normal. the problem for nvda is that the two people who started it were visionary, and not everyone can share the vision, if you get my drift.

 I don't know what is about to happen to tech, but it seems to me that nobody does. Who could have predicted this year that tablet sales have dropped but laptop and desktop sales are up. I suspect its down to novelty wearing off and nothing really new on the market just revamps of what has gone before.

 Personally, my gut tells me that although cloud computing can be good in some cases, many people do not want to pitch all their eggs into somebody elses basket. Its the same reason I still buy CDs. I don't want somebody taking my access away due to whatever. The danger at the moment is that the net is going down the packet priority  road as well, another legal form of highway robbery in my view.

 As for surveys, yes, well I already told you my opinion of those. Almost be better to use some tracking system, like a cookie to see what is on any given machine, but many would find that intrusive even though if you own an Android device its more or less going on now.

 Its all about trust and whether you can always trust others with data about you.

 If it can be created it can be hacked and  messed about with. Bots are all over the place after all.

 If you cannot trust the metrics one gets then the data collected becomes worthless.

 Anyway I'm up in the night again  wibbling on. Look at it this way, it matters what happens to nvda, but in the great scheme of life, what really matters is trying to be happy while you are  here on the planet. You cannot own other people like Mick or Jamie.

 

Its not right or  fair to expect people to be some kind of God.

 Been there got the TO Shirt, and the community awards etc, and for what?

 I prefer now to just help if I can but not to get so het up that it makes my life owned by others.

 Big mistake.

 Brian


bglists@... 
Sent via blueyonder.
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----- Original Message -----

From: Joseph Lee

Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2017 5:25 PM

Subject: [nvda] A few thoughts: Web Aim survey, quantity versus quality, feeling burnt out and tutorials

 

Dear NVDA community,

 

As I read messages on recent discussions, I realized just how much enthusiasm and concern people have over NVDA and its future. At the same time, it became clear to me that I and other developers and community elders need a day off and just listen to you all, as listening allows us to think about what others are saying and plan things accordingly.

 

But first, a humble opinion about surveys and other points:

 

First, when calls for the seventh Web AIM survey went out, I told people to not just do it to “increase” market share. I specifically told screen reader companies to not coerce users to do it, but let people take it out of their own willingness. This advice was to avoid a fiasco that happened with Web AIM 6 where AI Squared (now part of VFO) staff told Window-Eyes users to fill out the survey in mass numbers, which became a small controversy within the screen reading world, and to me, making Web AIM results no longer credible.

 

As some folks pointed out, Web AIM numbers depend on how many people fill it out and where they come from (and this is true of any surveys where word of mouth drives participation). The results also depend on demographics and other factors such as choices given, how the questions are worded, and overall objective. If one or more data points seems to be dominant, they can be either skewed or outliers, with the more extreme cases being termed “outliers” and they affect how the results are explicated (interpreted). Even skewed data, such as what I can perceive from some surveys including recent Web AIM iterations can affect statistical calculations to a point where it raises genuine questions about bias, credibility, and others (after all, success of statistics, particularly inferential statistics, depends on a representative sample or a close equivalent that allows researchers to approximate the real world, which is prone to errors if not done correctly such as misinterpretation, bad outliers, only some groups participating, not looking at things more deeply and what not).

 

One important thing to note is that Web AIM is a representative survey, thus the result in front of me could reflect reality. However, due to recent controversy, possible type I and II errors (false-positive and false-negative, respectively) and because of outliers and skewed data and participation, it does not truly reflect actual data, which is a point some folks here are trying to say and I concur with. My explication of Web AIM 7 is that, in some parts of the world, JAWS for Windows is more popular. However, given the fact that not all geographical regions are represented, I’d counter by saying that this is not a true representative sample that includes every continent, and if it did, the story would be different and will reflect reality a bit better (not a lot because there are other ways of skewing data such as filling it out on behalf of an organization, robotic fillers and so on). Coupled with the fact that Web AIM went through a major controversy recently that damaged its credibility somewhat, I would dare not trust Web AIM results again.

 

This leads to my second point: quantity versus quality. If NV Access went straight for quantity alone, they could have implemented all possible feature requests in hopes of boosting market share. The reality in front of us says otherwise: not all feature requests are here. Numerous factors contribute to this problem:

 

  • Lack of leading developers: in 2017, a long-time NVDA developer started working for another organization, and NV Access has been looking for his replacement ever since. Even if the replacement is found, it’ll take several months for him or her to become used to this community, learn about accessibility and how to interact with members, and earn our trust (it took Reef Turner a year to fully earn our trust). Folks can counter this by saying that there are countless contributors out there, but ultimately what gets into NVDA depends on pull requests and review time from NV Access.
  • Attitudes about open-source software from organizations: as some folks pointed out, there are prevailing attitudes about open-source in organizations that makes it a bit harder for NVDA to land on their computers, which allows developers to assess true needs of organizations through user feedback. Without valuable feedback from organizations (a quality one at that), we won’t see huger progress in NVDA development.
  • Outside attitudes about the NVDA community: from the inside, NVDA community is seen as a tight nit of enthusiasts who strives to make NVDA better every day. On the outside, however, we have a mixed bag of reputations, from admiration to honorable mentions to disdain. Every organization have these mixed reputations, especially more so for a community powered by technology such as Linux kernel developers, web browser vendors and web standards organizations, and even screen reader community. Not only we need to show that we are united inside, we need to showcase unity outside of this community.
  • Inside matters just as outside: public relations outside of NVDA community is important, but unity within an organization is just as important as public organizational face (I’ll address developer’s point of view below). What makes NVDA stand out is our unity despite coming from different circumstances and backgrounds.

 

Most of these point to quality, not quantity alone. In summary, quantity is important, but quality is just as important as how many people download NVDA 2017.4 between Christmas and New Year.

 

Lastly, in regards to organization internals, I’d like to address something I really wanted to say for the past few weeks: sometimes, I felt burnt out. My initial response to your enthusiasm over my audio tutorials was that I’ll ask for justifications for producing an updated version, seeing that there are countless free videos and tutorials out there. This was partly because I truly felt burnt out with academics, speech and debate competitions and what not (especially after a debate regarding a potential feature held not long ago), at one point telling myself that I’ll retire from the NVDA community sooner than later and feeling as though I carried important burdens on my shoulders. But you didn’t see that justification post; instead, I posted links to where you can download the 2018 version of my audio tutorial series. In effect, I’ve given up my Christmas holidays for this community, knowing that I needed a time to listen to you all and do something about it. All this was possible because of a simple act of listening and thinking about what the community means to me and what my work means to everyone. I’m committed to finishing Welcome to NVDA 2018 series before NVDA 2018.1 ships, with several addenda coming after that, all because of support from this community and outsiders. And I promise again: The Welcome to NVDA 2018 series was, and will remain, free for all. All I ask of you in return is donate to a cause that makes equal access to technology possible, especially during this holiday season and beyond.

 

I’m sure for many of you, my musings above are a bit hard to digest. Now you know why I don’t trust Web AIM survey results, quality is just as important as quantity, and read a confession from a community leader on his inner feelings. But there are two more things you need to know, something all of us needs to think about:

 

Community leaders won’t stay with you forever. In early 2017, I sensed that a long-time NVDA developer would leave this community for something better. Only I and others didn’t know until summer that it would be Jamie moving onto Mozilla Foundation.

 

I also felt, back in early 2017, that my active time with the NVDA community is slowly drawing to a close. I don’t know when it’ll happen, but I’ve been laying foundations for the next generation of developers and enthusiasts to take the lead. This is one of the reasons for setting up the devlearning subgroup, because I felt it is time for me and other leaders to teach NVDA internals and other concepts to the next group of community leaders and developers so they can bring NVDA to the next level and do more amazing things than I and others did (in my case, for the past five years).

 

Lastly, I sense a time when this community will face a sharp divide to a point where people will start questioning the merits of this community. I only told a select few earlier because it wasn’t right for me to disclose it early and for them to prepare a plan. The screen shade debate is, in fact, a sort of a preview of what is to come. One of the fundamental questions you will face at that time will be whether you still have your first love for NVDA, and whether you still have your original reasons for joining this community. The survival of this community at that time will depend on your ability to unite to face a difficult situation, even if that means facing possible splits. One thing you should NOT do at that time: ignoring new users and outside critics, because they are influential opinion leaders and are key stakeholders in NVDA’s future. One thing you SHOULD do though: listen to others and think critically.

 

Hope this makes sense.

Merry (early) Christmas,

Joseph


Change.org Petition: Make Movies Accessible to the Blind

 

Hi All,

This email might be off topic to this list, so if someone could give me some guidance it would be appreciated.

I have been doing some advocacy work for descriptive audio, and have written a Change.org petition. Have a look and see if you might sign and share with others.

https://www.change.org/p/the-walt-disney-company-make-movies-accessible-to-the-blind?recruiter=844835478&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=copylink&utm_campaign=share_petition&utm_term=share_petition

Yours,

Noah Carver


Re: A few thoughts: Web Aim survey, quantity versus quality, feeling burnt out and tutorials

Adriani Botez
 

Brian,

With respect to investing money globally to make screen reader users more computer literate, well believe or not there was always a solution for that. A screen reader should imply a social movement and not a gain of capital out of selling. There are lots of development institutions, Christian Blind Mission, blind federations and lots of other non governamental organizations which support everything which gives people access to education, information and technology. But in the last 30 years, many people hoped to gain money out of selling licenses and did not really concentrate on learning the user detailed aspects on how to use that software. Thus, users became more and more change resistent because they invested lot of time to learn by themselves how to use it productively. In my opinion, we should not only think about technical aspects of a screen reader, but also about social impact and user interaction.

Best
Adriani


Von meinem iPhone gesendet

Am 24.12.2017 um 04:44 schrieb Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io <bglists@...>:

Certainly I do understand the burned out part of this its the same for all volunteers. if we are good at what we do we are in demand and take on more and more. it was only a comment from somebody else that made me try to bring a sense of realism to life. You cannot be a one man fixer of everything, and the cemeteries are full of people who were indispensable.
 Most screenreader users are just that, users, many of us know the basics of what is going on, but really, its now so complex its beyond all but the few to grasp it all.
 Obviously as we kind of slip into a world very much like we used to have in the 80s, where computers run lots of different operating systems and even windows differs  in the internals between many different systems, the problems of access move from the screenreader to the platform.
 that is, NVDA will probably be OK on mainstream Windows computers for some years, but with tablets, phones and various different processors and operating systems now coming in, its going to be the user who has to change and become expert in many more interfaces, as clearly, what we use in Windows today with a keyboard may not fit in any way the interface of the future.
Sadly the problem is as it always has been, training and the cost and indeed the ability of blind people particularly the older ones to actually grasp the abstract concepts and enable them to see equivalents  and have a grasp of what is actually going on.
 I really think that somebody needs to invest a lot more money globally in trying to get more blind people computer literate, but its just not happening, so although in theory we have access, not everyone will be able to actually use it.
 
Change is life after all, and people going to take other jobs is normal. the problem for nvda is that the two people who started it were visionary, and not everyone can share the vision, if you get my drift.
 I don't know what is about to happen to tech, but it seems to me that nobody does. Who could have predicted this year that tablet sales have dropped but laptop and desktop sales are up. I suspect its down to novelty wearing off and nothing really new on the market just revamps of what has gone before.
 Personally, my gut tells me that although cloud computing can be good in some cases, many people do not want to pitch all their eggs into somebody elses basket. Its the same reason I still buy CDs. I don't want somebody taking my access away due to whatever. The danger at the moment is that the net is going down the packet priority  road as well, another legal form of highway robbery in my view.
 As for surveys, yes, well I already told you my opinion of those. Almost be better to use some tracking system, like a cookie to see what is on any given machine, but many would find that intrusive even though if you own an Android device its more or less going on now.
 Its all about trust and whether you can always trust others with data about you.
 If it can be created it can be hacked and  messed about with. Bots are all over the place after all.
 If you cannot trust the metrics one gets then the data collected becomes worthless.
 Anyway I'm up in the night again  wibbling on. Look at it this way, it matters what happens to nvda, but in the great scheme of life, what really matters is trying to be happy while you are  here on the planet. You cannot own other people like Mick or Jamie.
 
Its not right or  fair to expect people to be some kind of God.
 Been there got the TO Shirt, and the community awards etc, and for what?
 I prefer now to just help if I can but not to get so het up that it makes my life owned by others.
 Big mistake.
 Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: Joseph Lee
Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2017 5:25 PM
Subject: [nvda] A few thoughts: Web Aim survey, quantity versus quality, feeling burnt out and tutorials

Dear NVDA community,

 

As I read messages on recent discussions, I realized just how much enthusiasm and concern people have over NVDA and its future. At the same time, it became clear to me that I and other developers and community elders need a day off and just listen to you all, as listening allows us to think about what others are saying and plan things accordingly.

 

But first, a humble opinion about surveys and other points:

 

First, when calls for the seventh Web AIM survey went out, I told people to not just do it to “increase” market share. I specifically told screen reader companies to not coerce users to do it, but let people take it out of their own willingness. This advice was to avoid a fiasco that happened with Web AIM 6 where AI Squared (now part of VFO) staff told Window-Eyes users to fill out the survey in mass numbers, which became a small controversy within the screen reading world, and to me, making Web AIM results no longer credible.

 

As some folks pointed out, Web AIM numbers depend on how many people fill it out and where they come from (and this is true of any surveys where word of mouth drives participation). The results also depend on demographics and other factors such as choices given, how the questions are worded, and overall objective. If one or more data points seems to be dominant, they can be either skewed or outliers, with the more extreme cases being termed “outliers” and they affect how the results are explicated (interpreted). Even skewed data, such as what I can perceive from some surveys including recent Web AIM iterations can affect statistical calculations to a point where it raises genuine questions about bias, credibility, and others (after all, success of statistics, particularly inferential statistics, depends on a representative sample or a close equivalent that allows researchers to approximate the real world, which is prone to errors if not done correctly such as misinterpretation, bad outliers, only some groups participating, not looking at things more deeply and what not).

 

One important thing to note is that Web AIM is a representative survey, thus the result in front of me could reflect reality. However, due to recent controversy, possible type I and II errors (false-positive and false-negative, respectively) and because of outliers and skewed data and participation, it does not truly reflect actual data, which is a point some folks here are trying to say and I concur with. My explication of Web AIM 7 is that, in some parts of the world, JAWS for Windows is more popular. However, given the fact that not all geographical regions are represented, I’d counter by saying that this is not a true representative sample that includes every continent, and if it did, the story would be different and will reflect reality a bit better (not a lot because there are other ways of skewing data such as filling it out on behalf of an organization, robotic fillers and so on). Coupled with the fact that Web AIM went through a major controversy recently that damaged its credibility somewhat, I would dare not trust Web AIM results again.

 

This leads to my second point: quantity versus quality. If NV Access went straight for quantity alone, they could have implemented all possible feature requests in hopes of boosting market share. The reality in front of us says otherwise: not all feature requests are here. Numerous factors contribute to this problem:

 

  • Lack of leading developers: in 2017, a long-time NVDA developer started working for another organization, and NV Access has been looking for his replacement ever since. Even if the replacement is found, it’ll take several months for him or her to become used to this community, learn about accessibility and how to interact with members, and earn our trust (it took Reef Turner a year to fully earn our trust). Folks can counter this by saying that there are countless contributors out there, but ultimately what gets into NVDA depends on pull requests and review time from NV Access.
  • Attitudes about open-source software from organizations: as some folks pointed out, there are prevailing attitudes about open-source in organizations that makes it a bit harder for NVDA to land on their computers, which allows developers to assess true needs of organizations through user feedback. Without valuable feedback from organizations (a quality one at that), we won’t see huger progress in NVDA development.
  • Outside attitudes about the NVDA community: from the inside, NVDA community is seen as a tight nit of enthusiasts who strives to make NVDA better every day. On the outside, however, we have a mixed bag of reputations, from admiration to honorable mentions to disdain. Every organization have these mixed reputations, especially more so for a community powered by technology such as Linux kernel developers, web browser vendors and web standards organizations, and even screen reader community. Not only we need to show that we are united inside, we need to showcase unity outside of this community.
  • Inside matters just as outside: public relations outside of NVDA community is important, but unity within an organization is just as important as public organizational face (I’ll address developer’s point of view below). What makes NVDA stand out is our unity despite coming from different circumstances and backgrounds.

 

Most of these point to quality, not quantity alone. In summary, quantity is important, but quality is just as important as how many people download NVDA 2017.4 between Christmas and New Year.

 

Lastly, in regards to organization internals, I’d like to address something I really wanted to say for the past few weeks: sometimes, I felt burnt out. My initial response to your enthusiasm over my audio tutorials was that I’ll ask for justifications for producing an updated version, seeing that there are countless free videos and tutorials out there. This was partly because I truly felt burnt out with academics, speech and debate competitions and what not (especially after a debate regarding a potential feature held not long ago), at one point telling myself that I’ll retire from the NVDA community sooner than later and feeling as though I carried important burdens on my shoulders. But you didn’t see that justification post; instead, I posted links to where you can download the 2018 version of my audio tutorial series. In effect, I’ve given up my Christmas holidays for this community, knowing that I needed a time to listen to you all and do something about it. All this was possible because of a simple act of listening and thinking about what the community means to me and what my work means to everyone. I’m committed to finishing Welcome to NVDA 2018 series before NVDA 2018.1 ships, with several addenda coming after that, all because of support from this community and outsiders. And I promise again: The Welcome to NVDA 2018 series was, and will remain, free for all. All I ask of you in return is donate to a cause that makes equal access to technology possible, especially during this holiday season and beyond.

 

I’m sure for many of you, my musings above are a bit hard to digest. Now you know why I don’t trust Web AIM survey results, quality is just as important as quantity, and read a confession from a community leader on his inner feelings. But there are two more things you need to know, something all of us needs to think about:

 

Community leaders won’t stay with you forever. In early 2017, I sensed that a long-time NVDA developer would leave this community for something better. Only I and others didn’t know until summer that it would be Jamie moving onto Mozilla Foundation.

 

I also felt, back in early 2017, that my active time with the NVDA community is slowly drawing to a close. I don’t know when it’ll happen, but I’ve been laying foundations for the next generation of developers and enthusiasts to take the lead. This is one of the reasons for setting up the devlearning subgroup, because I felt it is time for me and other leaders to teach NVDA internals and other concepts to the next group of community leaders and developers so they can bring NVDA to the next level and do more amazing things than I and others did (in my case, for the past five years).

 

Lastly, I sense a time when this community will face a sharp divide to a point where people will start questioning the merits of this community. I only told a select few earlier because it wasn’t right for me to disclose it early and for them to prepare a plan. The screen shade debate is, in fact, a sort of a preview of what is to come. One of the fundamental questions you will face at that time will be whether you still have your first love for NVDA, and whether you still have your original reasons for joining this community. The survival of this community at that time will depend on your ability to unite to face a difficult situation, even if that means facing possible splits. One thing you should NOT do at that time: ignoring new users and outside critics, because they are influential opinion leaders and are key stakeholders in NVDA’s future. One thing you SHOULD do though: listen to others and think critically.

 

Hope this makes sense.

Merry (early) Christmas,

Joseph


Re: Nvda broken?

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

Seems odd though if its been there for a while.
I know the IBM version of Eloquence works still, but being sappe 4 is a little, shall we say unsophisticated!



I'm not sure what it is about Eloquence that people like. To me, being a Brit it always sounds like it has a speech impediment. I much prefer espeak Quincy, but then I'm biased as i created the variant in the first place :-)
Brian


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----- Original Message -----
From: "Matt Turner" <meturner2214@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2017 10:36 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Nvda broken?


Hi, I had a Eloquence addon.

I've wasn't sure if this addon was a legal one, so i've removed it.

I've had it on here for awhile, but I'll be buying the sapi5 one from codefactory.


On 12/23/2017 4:51 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:
Hi,
Glad it is fixed. Please flag us down if this happens again.
For reference: can you tell us which add-ons were causing issues?
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Matt Turner
Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2017 1:48 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Nvda broken?

Hi, I think I've fix it for now.

NVDA 2017.4, Windows 8.1 64 bit.

I've took a look at all the addons I had installed, and removed a few of them.

Starting up windows, NVDA starts up now. after removing said add-ons.


On 12/23/2017 4:24 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi,
A few things first:
* Which NVDA version are (or were) you running?
* Which Windows release are you using?
* Do you have any add-ons installed?
Sounds like NVDA has encountered a major problem when trying to load something at startup. The thing is, we need your NVDA log output to determine what's up, and one way to get it is:
1. Open Run dialog (Windows+R).
2. Type "%temp%" (without quotes and exactly as shown) and press Enter.
3. Look for a file named "nvda.log" or "nvdaold.log".
4. Open the file and copy and paste everything you see in the reply.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
Matt Turner
Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2017 1:18 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Nvda broken?

Hi folks.

Every time I try to start up NVDA, I get a airer.

I've uninstalled/ reinstalled, but I still get the same thing.

Even when windows starts up, the sound plays, but nvda still gives and airer.

Narrator reads, airer nvda.exe ok.

I get nothing about checking the nvda log.











Re: NVDA tech Support

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

A lot of the unanswered issues are simply because from the info given, there is no answer. also of course it could be that this person has some difference on their machine that only they have.

Its very hard if you have an issue to be very more helpful quite often.
For example I seem to be one of just two people who find updates to nvda do often lock up on the reboot. Its going to be impossible for anyone working on the code to fix it if they cannot see it going on.

Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Pascal Lambert" <rambeau68@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2017 9:00 PM
Subject: [nvda] NVDA tech Support


NVDA tech support may be best provided by groups at the national level given the different needs and language barriers. A headquarter group may be used to provide support to national groups as needed. In this large group list, many questions often remain unanswered.
Season's blessings
Pascal

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Shaun Everiss
Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2017 2:36 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] I'm dissappointed

Hmmm how would one go about doing this.

Firstly you would need some way to handle this.

I guess if it was all done via skype it could be done but I certainly do not have time to sit round on a waiting for calls on nvda.

For mail ie email we have this list for global support and the tech lists at least in new zealand do handle nvda questions and issues if they get posted there.

There is the blind organisation I am in and they have an accessibility centre of sorts that covers all support I suspose nvda to but who knows.

Its an organisation so like all of them they want you to use jaws but who knows a lot of that has changed a lot.




On 24/12/2017 8:22 a.m., Rui Fontes wrote:
I think the better solution is each NVDA country community having some
kind of support center, by phone or by mail...

At least in Portugal we serve as a kind of support center for NVDA...
by phone, Skype or mail...

Regards,

Rui Fontes
Tiflotecnia, Lda.


Às 18:55 de 23/12/2017, Shaun Everiss escreveu:
Well nvda does not use a traditional support line, the email list is
support for most part.

I think there is a toll call service in australia that the devs run
which you can buy, all reader groups have a trained tech support call
centre, we have mike and maybe other devs doing support but its not a
full support group.

Being that this is opensource and not payed for like jaws I am not
sure how we can fix this shortfall.

Technically I guess we can have groups on skype and or whats app for
nvda support but you really need someone to pick up that phone and
dial support.

Here is the thing, a number of devs and a few are payed but most of
us are not.

Having used jaws, and dolphin products while I have needed support
for most of my comercial product use its never been that much and
email has been most of it but if I need a responce the phone is
always the best especially if the computer does not work right.




On 24/12/2017 4:43 a.m., susan@cantos.us wrote:
I am a teacher of students with visual impairments. One of my
students is learning to use a screen reader and I decided to adopt
NVDA. Tireless hours training have been spent training myself
through videos, websites, youtubes, etc. I started training my
student and implementing it with his school work. We have found what
works one day does not always work the next day. What has been
frustrating is how difficult it is to get tech support for NVDA on
the spot as we sometimes need in the educational setting. We have
very limited hours in a school day to complete our training and work
with students with visual impairments. Their curriculum extends
beyond the core curriculum as we all know and efficiency with
support is critical. I am starting to use JAWS with my student and
it has been seemless and working well. I really want to adopt NVDA
but it has been very frustrating. We teach our students to
brainstorm and contact tech support when needed but NVDA does not
make it easy for our students to do this. Our students are the
future of NVDA as future screen readers. Thoughts?




.


.


Re: A few thoughts: Web Aim survey, quantity versus quality, feeling burnt out and tutorials

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

Certainly I do understand the burned out part of this its the same for all volunteers. if we are good at what we do we are in demand and take on more and more. it was only a comment from somebody else that made me try to bring a sense of realism to life. You cannot be a one man fixer of everything, and the cemeteries are full of people who were indispensable.
 Most screenreader users are just that, users, many of us know the basics of what is going on, but really, its now so complex its beyond all but the few to grasp it all.
 Obviously as we kind of slip into a world very much like we used to have in the 80s, where computers run lots of different operating systems and even windows differs  in the internals between many different systems, the problems of access move from the screenreader to the platform.
 that is, NVDA will probably be OK on mainstream Windows computers for some years, but with tablets, phones and various different processors and operating systems now coming in, its going to be the user who has to change and become expert in many more interfaces, as clearly, what we use in Windows today with a keyboard may not fit in any way the interface of the future.
Sadly the problem is as it always has been, training and the cost and indeed the ability of blind people particularly the older ones to actually grasp the abstract concepts and enable them to see equivalents  and have a grasp of what is actually going on.
 I really think that somebody needs to invest a lot more money globally in trying to get more blind people computer literate, but its just not happening, so although in theory we have access, not everyone will be able to actually use it.
 
Change is life after all, and people going to take other jobs is normal. the problem for nvda is that the two people who started it were visionary, and not everyone can share the vision, if you get my drift.
 I don't know what is about to happen to tech, but it seems to me that nobody does. Who could have predicted this year that tablet sales have dropped but laptop and desktop sales are up. I suspect its down to novelty wearing off and nothing really new on the market just revamps of what has gone before.
 Personally, my gut tells me that although cloud computing can be good in some cases, many people do not want to pitch all their eggs into somebody elses basket. Its the same reason I still buy CDs. I don't want somebody taking my access away due to whatever. The danger at the moment is that the net is going down the packet priority  road as well, another legal form of highway robbery in my view.
 As for surveys, yes, well I already told you my opinion of those. Almost be better to use some tracking system, like a cookie to see what is on any given machine, but many would find that intrusive even though if you own an Android device its more or less going on now.
 Its all about trust and whether you can always trust others with data about you.
 If it can be created it can be hacked and  messed about with. Bots are all over the place after all.
 If you cannot trust the metrics one gets then the data collected becomes worthless.
 Anyway I'm up in the night again  wibbling on. Look at it this way, it matters what happens to nvda, but in the great scheme of life, what really matters is trying to be happy while you are  here on the planet. You cannot own other people like Mick or Jamie.
 
Its not right or  fair to expect people to be some kind of God.
 Been there got the TO Shirt, and the community awards etc, and for what?
 I prefer now to just help if I can but not to get so het up that it makes my life owned by others.
 Big mistake.
 Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: Joseph Lee
Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2017 5:25 PM
Subject: [nvda] A few thoughts: Web Aim survey, quantity versus quality, feeling burnt out and tutorials

Dear NVDA community,

 

As I read messages on recent discussions, I realized just how much enthusiasm and concern people have over NVDA and its future. At the same time, it became clear to me that I and other developers and community elders need a day off and just listen to you all, as listening allows us to think about what others are saying and plan things accordingly.

 

But first, a humble opinion about surveys and other points:

 

First, when calls for the seventh Web AIM survey went out, I told people to not just do it to “increase” market share. I specifically told screen reader companies to not coerce users to do it, but let people take it out of their own willingness. This advice was to avoid a fiasco that happened with Web AIM 6 where AI Squared (now part of VFO) staff told Window-Eyes users to fill out the survey in mass numbers, which became a small controversy within the screen reading world, and to me, making Web AIM results no longer credible.

 

As some folks pointed out, Web AIM numbers depend on how many people fill it out and where they come from (and this is true of any surveys where word of mouth drives participation). The results also depend on demographics and other factors such as choices given, how the questions are worded, and overall objective. If one or more data points seems to be dominant, they can be either skewed or outliers, with the more extreme cases being termed “outliers” and they affect how the results are explicated (interpreted). Even skewed data, such as what I can perceive from some surveys including recent Web AIM iterations can affect statistical calculations to a point where it raises genuine questions about bias, credibility, and others (after all, success of statistics, particularly inferential statistics, depends on a representative sample or a close equivalent that allows researchers to approximate the real world, which is prone to errors if not done correctly such as misinterpretation, bad outliers, only some groups participating, not looking at things more deeply and what not).

 

One important thing to note is that Web AIM is a representative survey, thus the result in front of me could reflect reality. However, due to recent controversy, possible type I and II errors (false-positive and false-negative, respectively) and because of outliers and skewed data and participation, it does not truly reflect actual data, which is a point some folks here are trying to say and I concur with. My explication of Web AIM 7 is that, in some parts of the world, JAWS for Windows is more popular. However, given the fact that not all geographical regions are represented, I’d counter by saying that this is not a true representative sample that includes every continent, and if it did, the story would be different and will reflect reality a bit better (not a lot because there are other ways of skewing data such as filling it out on behalf of an organization, robotic fillers and so on). Coupled with the fact that Web AIM went through a major controversy recently that damaged its credibility somewhat, I would dare not trust Web AIM results again.

 

This leads to my second point: quantity versus quality. If NV Access went straight for quantity alone, they could have implemented all possible feature requests in hopes of boosting market share. The reality in front of us says otherwise: not all feature requests are here. Numerous factors contribute to this problem:

 

  • Lack of leading developers: in 2017, a long-time NVDA developer started working for another organization, and NV Access has been looking for his replacement ever since. Even if the replacement is found, it’ll take several months for him or her to become used to this community, learn about accessibility and how to interact with members, and earn our trust (it took Reef Turner a year to fully earn our trust). Folks can counter this by saying that there are countless contributors out there, but ultimately what gets into NVDA depends on pull requests and review time from NV Access.
  • Attitudes about open-source software from organizations: as some folks pointed out, there are prevailing attitudes about open-source in organizations that makes it a bit harder for NVDA to land on their computers, which allows developers to assess true needs of organizations through user feedback. Without valuable feedback from organizations (a quality one at that), we won’t see huger progress in NVDA development.
  • Outside attitudes about the NVDA community: from the inside, NVDA community is seen as a tight nit of enthusiasts who strives to make NVDA better every day. On the outside, however, we have a mixed bag of reputations, from admiration to honorable mentions to disdain. Every organization have these mixed reputations, especially more so for a community powered by technology such as Linux kernel developers, web browser vendors and web standards organizations, and even screen reader community. Not only we need to show that we are united inside, we need to showcase unity outside of this community.
  • Inside matters just as outside: public relations outside of NVDA community is important, but unity within an organization is just as important as public organizational face (I’ll address developer’s point of view below). What makes NVDA stand out is our unity despite coming from different circumstances and backgrounds.

 

Most of these point to quality, not quantity alone. In summary, quantity is important, but quality is just as important as how many people download NVDA 2017.4 between Christmas and New Year.

 

Lastly, in regards to organization internals, I’d like to address something I really wanted to say for the past few weeks: sometimes, I felt burnt out. My initial response to your enthusiasm over my audio tutorials was that I’ll ask for justifications for producing an updated version, seeing that there are countless free videos and tutorials out there. This was partly because I truly felt burnt out with academics, speech and debate competitions and what not (especially after a debate regarding a potential feature held not long ago), at one point telling myself that I’ll retire from the NVDA community sooner than later and feeling as though I carried important burdens on my shoulders. But you didn’t see that justification post; instead, I posted links to where you can download the 2018 version of my audio tutorial series. In effect, I’ve given up my Christmas holidays for this community, knowing that I needed a time to listen to you all and do something about it. All this was possible because of a simple act of listening and thinking about what the community means to me and what my work means to everyone. I’m committed to finishing Welcome to NVDA 2018 series before NVDA 2018.1 ships, with several addenda coming after that, all because of support from this community and outsiders. And I promise again: The Welcome to NVDA 2018 series was, and will remain, free for all. All I ask of you in return is donate to a cause that makes equal access to technology possible, especially during this holiday season and beyond.

 

I’m sure for many of you, my musings above are a bit hard to digest. Now you know why I don’t trust Web AIM survey results, quality is just as important as quantity, and read a confession from a community leader on his inner feelings. But there are two more things you need to know, something all of us needs to think about:

 

Community leaders won’t stay with you forever. In early 2017, I sensed that a long-time NVDA developer would leave this community for something better. Only I and others didn’t know until summer that it would be Jamie moving onto Mozilla Foundation.

 

I also felt, back in early 2017, that my active time with the NVDA community is slowly drawing to a close. I don’t know when it’ll happen, but I’ve been laying foundations for the next generation of developers and enthusiasts to take the lead. This is one of the reasons for setting up the devlearning subgroup, because I felt it is time for me and other leaders to teach NVDA internals and other concepts to the next group of community leaders and developers so they can bring NVDA to the next level and do more amazing things than I and others did (in my case, for the past five years).

 

Lastly, I sense a time when this community will face a sharp divide to a point where people will start questioning the merits of this community. I only told a select few earlier because it wasn’t right for me to disclose it early and for them to prepare a plan. The screen shade debate is, in fact, a sort of a preview of what is to come. One of the fundamental questions you will face at that time will be whether you still have your first love for NVDA, and whether you still have your original reasons for joining this community. The survival of this community at that time will depend on your ability to unite to face a difficult situation, even if that means facing possible splits. One thing you should NOT do at that time: ignoring new users and outside critics, because they are influential opinion leaders and are key stakeholders in NVDA’s future. One thing you SHOULD do though: listen to others and think critically.

 

Hope this makes sense.

Merry (early) Christmas,

Joseph


Re: Sleep mode resolved

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

Could be its being intercepted by some custom laptop software or another piece of software.
 
I've often found that even simple desktop shortcuts sometimes are not allowed for no apparent reason.
 Brian

bglists@... 
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
This message sent from a Windows XP machine!

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2017 7:46 PM
Subject: [nvda] Sleep mode resolved

Hello friends,
This is to inform all that i finally got the sleep issue fixed,
I just made a new keyboard command from
Nvda shift z to nvda control a
So now, pressing nvda control a will put nvda to sleep for a specific app/software
And Thank you so much to all who helped
I figure there may be a keyboard hardware issue blocking me from executing the command,
Cheers,

This message is transmitted on 100% recycled electrons.


Homepage; 


Re: I'm dissappointed

 

Hi,
The necessary foundation is being laid as we speak.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Devin Prater
Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2017 5:34 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] I'm dissappointed

I'd love to see Speech and sound scheme features, sort of like what Emacspeak provides.

Devin Prater
Assistive Technology Instructor certified by World Services for the Blind JAWS certified

On Dec 23, 2017, at 5:45 PM, Joseph Lee <joseph.lee22590@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi,
Thanks, I knew it was part of a 2013 release. Skim reading mode and examples are covered in my tutorial (the 2015 edition, that is).
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
mk360
Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2017 3:44 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] I'm dissappointed

2013.3.


El 23/12/2017 a las 20:29, Joseph Lee escribió:
Hi,
Hmmm, it is a recent addition (not long ago I believe). I think not a lot of people know that NVDA does have alternate say all like what JAWS has now, and I gave numerous demos in the past.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
Rui Fontes
Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2017 3:26 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] I'm dissappointed

Sorry!
Never tested that way!

It is a very good feature not communicated to the users!

Rui


Às 23:21 de 23/12/2017, Gene escreveu:
I found the setting. I almost never do anything in that dialog and
I didn't know about it. You don't use left and right arrow, you use
up and down arrow, the same keys you would use normally to move up
and down a line.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
*From:* Rui Fontes <mailto:rui.fontes@tiflotecnia.com>
*Sent:* Saturday, December 23, 2017 5:16 PM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] I'm dissappointed

Joseph, I think she was refering to the possibility of pressing
LeftArrow or RightArrow to go back or forward one line, phrase or
paragraph during continuous reading...Unfortunately that is not yet
possible in NVDA...

Rui
Às 23:01 de 23/12/2017, Joseph Lee escreveu:
Hi,

One of them is already here. In fact, you’ll find it in NVDA’s
keyboard > settings dialog.

Cheers,

Joseph

*From:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
[mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] *On Behalf Of > *Mary Otten > *Sent:*
Saturday, December 23, 2017 2:58 PM > *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io
<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> > *Subject:* Re: [nvda] I'm
dissappointed > > I really agree with you about the inability to
move backwards or > forwards a line at a time when continuous
reading is invoked. I really > really miss that feature a lot
coming from window eyes as I have.
Mary

Sent from my iPhone


On Dec 23, 2017, at 2:52 PM, Gene <gsasner@ripco.com
<mailto:gsasner@ripco.com> > <mailto:gsasner@ripco.com>> wrote:

You can't label graphics, you can't create frames and there is
no > adjustment of the screen echo. There is also no way to skip
baqck > and forward by line when the screen echo is set to all or
when using > read to end and have speech continue. If these
abilities were > present, as far as I know, that would make NVDA as
user configurable > as JAWS and Window-eyes. These are important lacks in NVDA.

Gene

----- Original Message -----

*From:*Adriani Botez <mailto:adriani.botez@gmail.com> > >
*Sent:*Saturday, December 23, 2017 2:34 PM > >
*To:*nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> > >
*Subject:*Re: [nvda] I'm dissappointed > > This is not correct.
NVDA is well adjustable, even much easier than > jaws.

Von meinem iPhone gesendet


Am 23.12.2017 um 03:47 schrieb Gene <gsasner@ripco.com
<mailto:gsasner@ripco.com> > <mailto:gsasner@ripco.com>>:

You can't do what I could do when I used Pine with a shell
account a long time ago. I didn't need to create any
frames
or > scripts. All I had to do was set the screen echo of
JAWS to > all, open a message, and then use the jaws skip
line wile > reading feature, right shift, to very quickly
jump to the start > of the message body. Even if NVDA reads
such material when it > appears on screen, you either listen
to everything or nothing > and use the tedious read by line
screen review option. Hardly a > convenient or reasonable way to go through thirty e-mails.

Like it or not, NVDA isn't user definable. You can't label
graphics and you can't create frames. These are serious >
deficiencies even if many of us don't need such options.

And you can't set the screen echo to all and then do what I
did, > as I described. This may be an important ability for some users.

Gene

----- Original Message ----- > >
*From:*coffeekingms@hotmail.com <mailto:coffeekingms@hotmail.com> >
*Sent:*Friday, December 22, 2017 7:16 PM > >
*To:*nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> > >
*Subject:*Re: [nvda] I'm dissappointed > > Hi > >
I concur. I firmly believe that NVDA can do most, if not all, >
the things more expensive programs can do. With some very rare >
exceptions. There are still some apps that require jfw with >
specific scripts to be usable, but as time goes on those apps >
will dwindle until there are none left. But for 99 percent of >
people, NVDA can work for them, either alone or in combination >
with narrator, which has gotten quite good. I don’t really set >
much store by such presentations, as the few I’ve bothered to >
listen to gloss over the free options as if they’re not there, >
are not worth mentioning or aren’t good enough. This applies to >
NVDA as well as open source operating systems like Linux. I have >
not listened to the presentation people are talking about, so I >
don’t want to ruffle any feathers, but as a rule I don’t listen >
to them. They tend to unilaterally insist that only the paid > apps
are worth using. Except for the NVDA podcasts. Those are > great,
although I don’t follow those either. I’m just a user. I > use NVDA
on a daily basis and have found very little that it > can’t do. If
it can’t navigate an app by the usual methods, tab, > shift tab,
arrows, then it can by either touch, if you have a > touch screen
or object navigation.Even when I was using Linux > full time I
would keep up with NVDA’s progress, and NVDA is what > eventually
brought me back to using windows again.

Thanks

Kendell Clark

Sent from Mail
<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986>
for Windows 10

--------------------------------------------------------------------
-
-
--

*From:*nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> >
<nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> on behalf of > Don H
<lmddh50@adams.net <mailto:lmddh50@adams.net>
<mailto:lmddh50@adams.net>> > *Sent:* Friday, December 22, 2017
6:18:54 PM > *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io
<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> >
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] I'm dissappointed > > I think that
NVDA is just as good or better than any other screen > reader. I
think the issue for businesses is the fact that NVDA >
is open > source thus in their minds less secure.













Re: I'm dissappointed

Devin Prater
 

I'd love to see Speech and sound scheme features, sort of like what Emacspeak provides.

Devin Prater
Assistive Technology Instructor certified by World Services for the Blind
JAWS certified

On Dec 23, 2017, at 5:45 PM, Joseph Lee <joseph.lee22590@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi,
Thanks, I knew it was part of a 2013 release. Skim reading mode and examples are covered in my tutorial (the 2015 edition, that is).
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of mk360
Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2017 3:44 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] I'm dissappointed

2013.3.


El 23/12/2017 a las 20:29, Joseph Lee escribió:
Hi,
Hmmm, it is a recent addition (not long ago I believe). I think not a lot of people know that NVDA does have alternate say all like what JAWS has now, and I gave numerous demos in the past.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
Rui Fontes
Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2017 3:26 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] I'm dissappointed

Sorry!
Never tested that way!

It is a very good feature not communicated to the users!

Rui


Às 23:21 de 23/12/2017, Gene escreveu:
I found the setting. I almost never do anything in that dialog and I
didn't know about it. You don't use left and right arrow, you use up
and down arrow, the same keys you would use normally to move up and
down a line.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
*From:* Rui Fontes <mailto:rui.fontes@tiflotecnia.com>
*Sent:* Saturday, December 23, 2017 5:16 PM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] I'm dissappointed

Joseph, I think she was refering to the possibility of pressing
LeftArrow or RightArrow to go back or forward one line, phrase or
paragraph during continuous reading...Unfortunately that is not yet
possible in NVDA...

Rui
Às 23:01 de 23/12/2017, Joseph Lee escreveu:
Hi,

One of them is already here. In fact, you’ll find it in NVDA’s
keyboard > settings dialog.

Cheers,

Joseph

*From:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
[mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] *On Behalf Of > *Mary Otten > *Sent:*
Saturday, December 23, 2017 2:58 PM > *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io
<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> > *Subject:* Re: [nvda] I'm
dissappointed > > I really agree with you about the inability to
move backwards or > forwards a line at a time when continuous
reading is invoked. I really > really miss that feature a lot coming
from window eyes as I have.
Mary

Sent from my iPhone


On Dec 23, 2017, at 2:52 PM, Gene <gsasner@ripco.com
<mailto:gsasner@ripco.com> > <mailto:gsasner@ripco.com>> wrote:

You can't label graphics, you can't create frames and there is
no > adjustment of the screen echo. There is also no way to skip
baqck > and forward by line when the screen echo is set to all or
when using > read to end and have speech continue. If these
abilities were > present, as far as I know, that would make NVDA as
user configurable > as JAWS and Window-eyes. These are important lacks in NVDA.

Gene

----- Original Message -----

*From:*Adriani Botez <mailto:adriani.botez@gmail.com> > >
*Sent:*Saturday, December 23, 2017 2:34 PM > >
*To:*nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> > >
*Subject:*Re: [nvda] I'm dissappointed > > This is not correct.
NVDA is well adjustable, even much easier than > jaws.

Von meinem iPhone gesendet


Am 23.12.2017 um 03:47 schrieb Gene <gsasner@ripco.com
<mailto:gsasner@ripco.com> > <mailto:gsasner@ripco.com>>:

You can't do what I could do when I used Pine with a shell
account a long time ago. I didn't need to create any
frames
or > scripts. All I had to do was set the screen echo of
JAWS to > all, open a message, and then use the jaws skip
line wile > reading feature, right shift, to very quickly
jump to the start > of the message body. Even if NVDA reads
such material when it > appears on screen, you either listen
to everything or nothing > and use the tedious read by line
screen review option. Hardly a > convenient or reasonable way to go through thirty e-mails.

Like it or not, NVDA isn't user definable. You can't label
graphics and you can't create frames. These are serious >
deficiencies even if many of us don't need such options.

And you can't set the screen echo to all and then do what I
did, > as I described. This may be an important ability for some users.

Gene

----- Original Message ----- > >
*From:*coffeekingms@hotmail.com <mailto:coffeekingms@hotmail.com> >
*Sent:*Friday, December 22, 2017 7:16 PM > >
*To:*nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> > >
*Subject:*Re: [nvda] I'm dissappointed > > Hi > >
I concur. I firmly believe that NVDA can do most, if not all, > the
things more expensive programs can do. With some very rare >
exceptions. There are still some apps that require jfw with >
specific scripts to be usable, but as time goes on those apps > will
dwindle until there are none left. But for 99 percent of > people,
NVDA can work for them, either alone or in combination > with
narrator, which has gotten quite good. I don’t really set > much
store by such presentations, as the few I’ve bothered to > listen to
gloss over the free options as if they’re not there, > are not worth
mentioning or aren’t good enough. This applies to > NVDA as well as
open source operating systems like Linux. I have > not listened to
the presentation people are talking about, so I > don’t want to
ruffle any feathers, but as a rule I don’t listen > to them. They
tend to unilaterally insist that only the paid > apps are worth
using. Except for the NVDA podcasts. Those are > great, although I
don’t follow those either. I’m just a user. I > use NVDA on a daily
basis and have found very little that it > can’t do. If it can’t
navigate an app by the usual methods, tab, > shift tab, arrows, then
it can by either touch, if you have a > touch screen or object
navigation.Even when I was using Linux > full time I would keep up
with NVDA’s progress, and NVDA is what > eventually brought me back
to using windows again.

Thanks

Kendell Clark

Sent from Mail
<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986>
for Windows 10

---------------------------------------------------------------------
-
--

*From:*nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> >
<nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> on behalf of > Don H
<lmddh50@adams.net <mailto:lmddh50@adams.net>
<mailto:lmddh50@adams.net>> > *Sent:* Friday, December 22, 2017
6:18:54 PM > *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io
<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> >
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] I'm dissappointed > > I think that
NVDA is just as good or better than any other screen > reader. I
think the issue for businesses is the fact that NVDA >
is open > source thus in their minds less secure.













Golden Cursor December 23rd snapshot/emergency patch posted

 

Hi everyone,

 

Thanks to quick feedback from a user, an emergency patch for Golden Cursor December 23rd snapshot is now up:

https://addons.nvda-project.org/addons/goldenCursor.en.html

 

Thanks.

Cheers,

Joseph


Re: I'm dissappointed

 

Hi,
Thanks, I knew it was part of a 2013 release. Skim reading mode and examples are covered in my tutorial (the 2015 edition, that is).
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of mk360
Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2017 3:44 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] I'm dissappointed

2013.3.


El 23/12/2017 a las 20:29, Joseph Lee escribió:
Hi,
Hmmm, it is a recent addition (not long ago I believe). I think not a lot of people know that NVDA does have alternate say all like what JAWS has now, and I gave numerous demos in the past.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
Rui Fontes
Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2017 3:26 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] I'm dissappointed

Sorry!
Never tested that way!

It is a very good feature not communicated to the users!

Rui


Às 23:21 de 23/12/2017, Gene escreveu:
I found the setting. I almost never do anything in that dialog and I
didn't know about it. You don't use left and right arrow, you use up
and down arrow, the same keys you would use normally to move up and
down a line.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
*From:* Rui Fontes <mailto:rui.fontes@tiflotecnia.com>
*Sent:* Saturday, December 23, 2017 5:16 PM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] I'm dissappointed

Joseph, I think she was refering to the possibility of pressing
LeftArrow or RightArrow to go back or forward one line, phrase or
paragraph during continuous reading...Unfortunately that is not yet
possible in NVDA...

Rui
Às 23:01 de 23/12/2017, Joseph Lee escreveu:
> Hi,
>
> One of them is already here. In fact, you’ll find it in NVDA’s
keyboard > settings dialog.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Joseph
>
> *From:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
[mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] *On Behalf Of > *Mary Otten > *Sent:*
Saturday, December 23, 2017 2:58 PM > *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io
<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> > *Subject:* Re: [nvda] I'm
dissappointed > > I really agree with you about the inability to
move backwards or > forwards a line at a time when continuous
reading is invoked. I really > really miss that feature a lot coming
from window eyes as I have.
> Mary
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
> On Dec 23, 2017, at 2:52 PM, Gene <gsasner@ripco.com
<mailto:gsasner@ripco.com> > <mailto:gsasner@ripco.com>> wrote:
>
> You can't label graphics, you can't create frames and there is
no > adjustment of the screen echo. There is also no way to skip
baqck > and forward by line when the screen echo is set to all or
when using > read to end and have speech continue. If these
abilities were > present, as far as I know, that would make NVDA as
user configurable > as JAWS and Window-eyes. These are important lacks in NVDA.
>
> Gene
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> *From:*Adriani Botez <mailto:adriani.botez@gmail.com> > >
*Sent:*Saturday, December 23, 2017 2:34 PM > >
*To:*nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> > >
*Subject:*Re: [nvda] I'm dissappointed > > This is not correct.
NVDA is well adjustable, even much easier than > jaws.
>
> Von meinem iPhone gesendet
>
>
> Am 23.12.2017 um 03:47 schrieb Gene <gsasner@ripco.com
<mailto:gsasner@ripco.com> > <mailto:gsasner@ripco.com>>:
>
> You can't do what I could do when I used Pine with a shell
account a long time ago. I didn't need to create any
frames
or > scripts. All I had to do was set the screen echo of
JAWS to > all, open a message, and then use the jaws skip
line wile > reading feature, right shift, to very quickly
jump to the start > of the message body. Even if NVDA reads
such material when it > appears on screen, you either listen
to everything or nothing > and use the tedious read by line
screen review option. Hardly a > convenient or reasonable way to go through thirty e-mails.
>
> Like it or not, NVDA isn't user definable. You can't label
graphics and you can't create frames. These are serious >
deficiencies even if many of us don't need such options.
>
> And you can't set the screen echo to all and then do what I
did, > as I described. This may be an important ability for some users.
>
> Gene
>
> ----- Original Message ----- > >
*From:*coffeekingms@hotmail.com <mailto:coffeekingms@hotmail.com> >
*Sent:*Friday, December 22, 2017 7:16 PM > >
*To:*nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> > >
*Subject:*Re: [nvda] I'm dissappointed > > Hi > >
I concur. I firmly believe that NVDA can do most, if not all, > the
things more expensive programs can do. With some very rare >
exceptions. There are still some apps that require jfw with >
specific scripts to be usable, but as time goes on those apps > will
dwindle until there are none left. But for 99 percent of > people,
NVDA can work for them, either alone or in combination > with
narrator, which has gotten quite good. I don’t really set > much
store by such presentations, as the few I’ve bothered to > listen to
gloss over the free options as if they’re not there, > are not worth
mentioning or aren’t good enough. This applies to > NVDA as well as
open source operating systems like Linux. I have > not listened to
the presentation people are talking about, so I > don’t want to
ruffle any feathers, but as a rule I don’t listen > to them. They
tend to unilaterally insist that only the paid > apps are worth
using. Except for the NVDA podcasts. Those are > great, although I
don’t follow those either. I’m just a user. I > use NVDA on a daily
basis and have found very little that it > can’t do. If it can’t
navigate an app by the usual methods, tab, > shift tab, arrows, then
it can by either touch, if you have a > touch screen or object
navigation.Even when I was using Linux > full time I would keep up
with NVDA’s progress, and NVDA is what > eventually brought me back
to using windows again.
>
> Thanks
>
> Kendell Clark
>
> Sent from Mail
<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986>
> for Windows 10
>
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
-
--
>
> *From:*nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> >
<nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> on behalf of > Don H
<lmddh50@adams.net <mailto:lmddh50@adams.net>
<mailto:lmddh50@adams.net>> > *Sent:* Friday, December 22, 2017
6:18:54 PM > *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io
<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> >
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] I'm dissappointed > > I think that
NVDA is just as good or better than any other screen > reader. I
think the issue for businesses is the fact that NVDA >
is open > source thus in their minds less secure.
>
>
>
>






Re: I'm dissappointed

Rui Fontes
 

Joseph, it was introduced in 2013.3...
It seems I, and many others, assumed we just can use the quick navigation commands...

Rui

Às 23:29 de 23/12/2017, Joseph Lee escreveu:

Hi,
Hmmm, it is a recent addition (not long ago I believe). I think not a lot of people know that NVDA does have alternate say all like what JAWS has now, and I gave numerous demos in the past.
Cheers,
Joseph
-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Rui Fontes
Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2017 3:26 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] I'm dissappointed
Sorry!
Never tested that way!
It is a very good feature not communicated to the users!
Rui
Às 23:21 de 23/12/2017, Gene escreveu:
I found the setting. I almost never do anything in that dialog and I
didn't know about it. You don't use left and right arrow, you use up
and down arrow, the same keys you would use normally to move up and
down a line.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
*From:* Rui Fontes <mailto:rui.fontes@tiflotecnia.com>
*Sent:* Saturday, December 23, 2017 5:16 PM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] I'm dissappointed

Joseph, I think she was refering to the possibility of pressing
LeftArrow or RightArrow to go back or forward one line, phrase or
paragraph during continuous reading...Unfortunately that is not yet
possible in NVDA...

Rui
Às 23:01 de 23/12/2017, Joseph Lee escreveu:
> Hi,
>
> One of them is already here. In fact, you’ll find it in NVDA’s
keyboard > settings dialog.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Joseph
>
> *From:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
[mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] *On Behalf Of > *Mary Otten > *Sent:*
Saturday, December 23, 2017 2:58 PM > *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io
<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> > *Subject:* Re: [nvda] I'm
dissappointed > > I really agree with you about the inability to
move backwards or > forwards a line at a time when continuous reading
is invoked. I really > really miss that feature a lot coming from
window eyes as I have.
> Mary
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
> On Dec 23, 2017, at 2:52 PM, Gene <gsasner@ripco.com
<mailto:gsasner@ripco.com> > <mailto:gsasner@ripco.com>> wrote:
>
> You can't label graphics, you can't create frames and there is
no > adjustment of the screen echo. There is also no way to skip
baqck > and forward by line when the screen echo is set to all or
when using > read to end and have speech continue. If these
abilities were > present, as far as I know, that would make NVDA as
user configurable > as JAWS and Window-eyes. These are important lacks in NVDA.
>
> Gene
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> *From:*Adriani Botez <mailto:adriani.botez@gmail.com> > >
*Sent:*Saturday, December 23, 2017 2:34 PM > >
*To:*nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> > >
*Subject:*Re: [nvda] I'm dissappointed > > This is not correct.
NVDA is well adjustable, even much easier than > jaws.
>
> Von meinem iPhone gesendet
>
>
> Am 23.12.2017 um 03:47 schrieb Gene <gsasner@ripco.com
<mailto:gsasner@ripco.com> > <mailto:gsasner@ripco.com>>:
>
> You can't do what I could do when I used Pine with a shell
account a long time ago. I didn't need to create any frames
or > scripts. All I had to do was set the screen echo of
JAWS to > all, open a message, and then use the jaws skip
line wile > reading feature, right shift, to very quickly
jump to the start > of the message body. Even if NVDA reads
such material when it > appears on screen, you either listen
to everything or nothing > and use the tedious read by line
screen review option. Hardly a > convenient or reasonable way to go through thirty e-mails.
>
> Like it or not, NVDA isn't user definable. You can't label
graphics and you can't create frames. These are serious >
deficiencies even if many of us don't need such options.
>
> And you can't set the screen echo to all and then do what I
did, > as I described. This may be an important ability for some users.
>
> Gene
>
> ----- Original Message ----- > >
*From:*coffeekingms@hotmail.com <mailto:coffeekingms@hotmail.com> >
*Sent:*Friday, December 22, 2017 7:16 PM > >
*To:*nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> > >
*Subject:*Re: [nvda] I'm dissappointed > > Hi > >
I concur. I firmly believe that NVDA can do most, if not all, >
the things more expensive programs can do. With some very rare >
exceptions. There are still some apps that require jfw with >
specific scripts to be usable, but as time goes on those apps >
will dwindle until there are none left. But for 99 percent of >
people, NVDA can work for them, either alone or in combination >
with narrator, which has gotten quite good. I don’t really set >
much store by such presentations, as the few I’ve bothered to >
listen to gloss over the free options as if they’re not there, >
are not worth mentioning or aren’t good enough. This applies to >
NVDA as well as open source operating systems like Linux. I have >
not listened to the presentation people are talking about, so I >
don’t want to ruffle any feathers, but as a rule I don’t listen >
to them. They tend to unilaterally insist that only the paid >
apps are worth using. Except for the NVDA podcasts. Those are >
great, although I don’t follow those either. I’m just a user. I >
use NVDA on a daily basis and have found very little that it >
can’t do. If it can’t navigate an app by the usual methods, tab, >
shift tab, arrows, then it can by either touch, if you have a >
touch screen or object navigation.Even when I was using Linux >
full time I would keep up with NVDA’s progress, and NVDA is what >
eventually brought me back to using windows again.
>
> Thanks
>
> Kendell Clark
>
> Sent from Mail
<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986>
> for Windows 10
>
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
--
>
> *From:*nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> >
<nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> on behalf of > Don H
<lmddh50@adams.net <mailto:lmddh50@adams.net>
<mailto:lmddh50@adams.net>> > *Sent:* Friday, December 22, 2017
6:18:54 PM > *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io
<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> >
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] I'm dissappointed > > I think that
NVDA is just as good or better than any other screen >
reader. I think the issue for businesses is the fact that NVDA >
is open > source thus in their minds less secure.
>
>
>
>