Date   

Re: Using Thunderbird filters

Gene
 

Then the question is, what is wrong with the rules that don't work?  Are you sure all the lists have what you tell the rule to look for where you tell it to look?  Are you sure the spelling is exactly correct for every item you are using?  I'm not sure what else might account for some of the rules not working. 
 
It might be that if you wrote out every step for a rule that doesn't work, that someone will be able to find the error.  That is tedious but it may work.  It might be much faster and more likely to find the error to work with someone.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2017 12:36 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Using Thunderbird filters

I created rules for all the lists that I'm on.




On 10/25/2017 5:12 PM, Gene wrote:
What do you mean some other messages from other lists.  If your rule only applies to messages with one list name, then no other messages will be affected.  You need to make a separate rule for every list.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----

Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2017 6:09 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Using Thunderbird filters

Hi, Robert,


I already did all that. Some other messages from the other lists are still going into the inbox. I don't know what else to do.


Rosemarie




On 10/25/2017 4:07 PM, Robert Mendoza wrote:

subject line is intended to change to avoid confusion of the thread. About your concern for filtering particular message into your inbox in Thunderbird. you have to make sure that your focus is located to the message that is not open yet, then tab several times till the focus is directed in the recipient column. Right click then select Create Filter From. The rest of the filters process is the same as mentioned below by John. Also, make sure you uncheck the filter by manually so that it will run automatically into your corresponding filtered of your choice.

Robert Mendoza
On 10/26/2017 6:36 AM, Rosemarie Chavarria wrote:
Hi, John,


Let's say you want to run a filter on a message that comes into the inbox. I've pretty muchcreated the filters but there are messages till coming into the inbox from other lists. How do you run a filter on a message?


Thanks.


Rosemarie



On 10/25/2017 3:03 PM, John Isige wrote:
1. Go to the tools menu, pick message filters.


2. Tab to the new button.


3. Fill in whatever rules you want, e.g. from in the combo box, tell it to match nvda.


4. For the next two combo boxes, it will probably be easiest to hit alt-down arrow and expand them. Just pick whatever you like, I move mine to a folder called nvda that I made.


5. To make a folder, just pick folder from the new menu in the file menu, do that before you do a filter if you want to move stuff, because the folder has to exist for you to pick it. If you want the folder in the main account, i.e. another folder like inbox, before you make the folder, highlight your account name with the arrows. If you want everything under your inbox, so you have to hit right arrow to expand folders, highlight your inbox. The difference is that if you highlight the account, you can down arrow, so you'll get inbox, your folder, sent, trash, whatever. If you do it highlighting the inbox, inbox usually starts collapsed and you have to hit right arrow to expand it, then you hit down arrow to get to those folders, you'll go through whatever you made, then you'll get back to sent, trash, whatever.


If that's confusing somehow, feel free to ask questions.


On 10/25/2017 13:26, Rosemarie Chavarria wrote:
Hi, John,


How do you create filters in thunderbird or do you just delete them after reading or replying to them? Outlook is ok but It's a bit clunky.


Rosemarie




On 10/25/2017 10:02 AM, John Isige wrote:
Microsoft's various mail programs have always been weird though. I used to use Outlook, the one that came in Office. Then I had to upgrade or migrate machines or whatever. So I exported mail and everything just like you're supposed to. Got everything installed, imported into the new Outlook. Suddenly none of my filtering rules to send messages to specific folders would work. So I literally deleted them all and recreated them from scratch, and they still wouldn't work. That's when I switched to Thunderbird and I've been using it ever since.



















Re: Using Thunderbird filters

Gene
 

I should make a possible correction.  I said you need a different rule for every list.  I don't know if that is true.  I don't know if you can put multiple things for a rule to look for such as the names of more than one list.  I believe I've only heard of people using one rule for one list and another rule for another list.  If there is a setting that will allow you to put multiple items in one rule, such as I gave an example of before, you may not be doing it correctly or you may be using the wrong setting.  Others may be able to explain how to do this, or you may just want to create one rule for each list.  It might be more work but since you have written a rule that works on some messages, you know that the rule is working to an extent.  So you may be able to use that suggestion to make a rule, one for each list, that works. 
 
I said before that working with someone in real time would be a good idea.  You say you go through all the steps.  That doesn't mean you do or do correctly.  It means you think you go through all the steps.  No one can be sure what to tell you without every step being listed in a message, every field you fill out or check and uncheck, every combo box you work with, how and what you set it to, etc.  That is why I say you should work with someone in real time.  So you can make a rule and they can hear every step you do.  Either that or record yourself making a rule and sending the recording to the list.  But without those trying to help knowing every step, no one can know or make a properly informed guess about what you are doing incorrectly.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2017 12:17 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Using Thunderbird filters

Hi, Ron,


I did all those steps and I still can't get messages moved to their proper folders. I've hit enter on all the folders but I'm still having some messages from other lists go to my inbox instead of their proper folders. Why isn't this working for me? In outlook, you just hit the context key and arrow down to "always move messages from" and then the name of the messages.


Rosemarie




On 10/25/2017 7:49 PM, Ron Canazzi wrote:

Hi Group,


Assuming that you have attempted to create the filters by clicking tools/filters/new, be advised that the select a folder aspect is a bit kinky with screen readers.  You must treat that list box like a combo box using alt + down arrow to open the folder list and once selecting the right folder to filter messages into, press either enter or alt + up arrow to close the box and select the folder.


Everyone who is new to Thunderbird (including me) seems to run across this and it is temporarily confusing until you figure out what is going on.



On 10/25/2017 7:25 PM, Rosemarie Chavarria wrote:

I tried but it didn't work. I selected the rule and tabbed to the run now button and hit enter but it didn't work. This isn't working out.




On 10/25/2017 4:20 PM, Rosemarie Chavarria wrote:

Thanks.


I'll give it another shot.




On 10/25/2017 4:17 PM, Robert Mendoza wrote:

HI, Rosemary

Under the Tool in the main menu select Message Filters. Then, you will prompted of the list of filtered folders you've created. You need to double check and uncheck the Manual Run.

Robert Mendoza
On 10/26/2017 7:09 AM, Rosemarie Chavarria wrote:

Hi, Robert,


I already did all that. Some other messages from the other lists are still going into the inbox. I don't know what else to do.


Rosemarie




On 10/25/2017 4:07 PM, Robert Mendoza wrote:

subject line is intended to change to avoid confusion of the thread. About your concern for filtering particular message into your inbox in Thunderbird. you have to make sure that your focus is located to the message that is not open yet, then tab several times till the focus is directed in the recipient column. Right click then select Create Filter From. The rest of the filters process is the same as mentioned below by John. Also, make sure you uncheck the filter by manually so that it will run automatically into your corresponding filtered of your choice.

Robert Mendoza
On 10/26/2017 6:36 AM, Rosemarie Chavarria wrote:
Hi, John,


Let's say you want to run a filter on a message that comes into the inbox. I've pretty muchcreated the filters but there are messages till coming into the inbox from other lists. How do you run a filter on a message?


Thanks.


Rosemarie



On 10/25/2017 3:03 PM, John Isige wrote:
1. Go to the tools menu, pick message filters.


2. Tab to the new button.


3. Fill in whatever rules you want, e.g. from in the combo box, tell it to match nvda.


4. For the next two combo boxes, it will probably be easiest to hit alt-down arrow and expand them. Just pick whatever you like, I move mine to a folder called nvda that I made.


5. To make a folder, just pick folder from the new menu in the file menu, do that before you do a filter if you want to move stuff, because the folder has to exist for you to pick it. If you want the folder in the main account, i.e. another folder like inbox, before you make the folder, highlight your account name with the arrows. If you want everything under your inbox, so you have to hit right arrow to expand folders, highlight your inbox. The difference is that if you highlight the account, you can down arrow, so you'll get inbox, your folder, sent, trash, whatever. If you do it highlighting the inbox, inbox usually starts collapsed and you have to hit right arrow to expand it, then you hit down arrow to get to those folders, you'll go through whatever you made, then you'll get back to sent, trash, whatever.


If that's confusing somehow, feel free to ask questions.


On 10/25/2017 13:26, Rosemarie Chavarria wrote:
Hi, John,


How do you create filters in thunderbird or do you just delete them after reading or replying to them? Outlook is ok but It's a bit clunky.


Rosemarie




On 10/25/2017 10:02 AM, John Isige wrote:
Microsoft's various mail programs have always been weird though. I used to use Outlook, the one that came in Office. Then I had to upgrade or migrate machines or whatever. So I exported mail and everything just like you're supposed to. Got everything installed, imported into the new Outlook. Suddenly none of my filtering rules to send messages to specific folders would work. So I literally deleted them all and recreated them from scratch, and they still wouldn't work. That's when I switched to Thunderbird and I've been using it ever since.





















-- 
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


Re: What's the simplest, most accessible calendar, please?

Tony Ballou
 

Hi Allie,


Since they are using windows 7, have them check out the Blind Software
Planner program. I actually tested it out on a machine recently and It
works with NVDA.  Hope this helps.


Tony

On 10/25/2017 11:28 AM, Mallard wrote:



Hello list,

A friend is asking me what is teh most accessible calendar to use with
NVDA and Windows7.

I use no calendars, and have Windows10, so I can be of no help.

Would anyone have suggestions, please?

Thanks in advance.
Ciao,
Ollie



Re: heading level spoken

Gene New Zealand <hurrikennyandopo@...>
 

Hi


under the document formatting section in NVDA uncheck the reporting of headings in it.


Save your settings to take effect if that is what you want.


Gene nz



On 10/26/2017 10:46 PM, Gary Metzler wrote:
Hi All,
 
I am using the latest windows and nvda.  For some reason I am hearing the words heading level when I go to some lines.  What setting do I need to change to stop this from happening?  Thanks for any help.Regards, Gary kn4ox

--
Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related material at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net Regardless of where you are in New Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you can use a copy of the NVDA screen reader on one of their computers. To find out which locations (or location) is near to you please visit http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries (Aotearoa People's Network Kaharoa). To find an NVDA certified expert near you, please visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified individuals from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA expert exam.


heading level spoken

Gary Metzler <gmtravel@...>
 

Hi All,
 
I am using the latest windows and nvda.  For some reason I am hearing the words heading level when I go to some lines.  What setting do I need to change to stop this from happening?  Thanks for any help.Regards, Gary kn4ox


Re: outlook 2016 possible issue

Ralf Kefferpuetz
 

Hello,
Please read this article and try it out.
https://www.lifewire.com/prevent-sending-winmail-dat-attachments-1173717

cheers,
Ralf

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Shaun Everiss
Sent: Donnerstag, 26. Oktober 2017 10:44
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] outlook 2016 possible issue

Nothing that I know of.

It is happening to all users, it started after the september update, defender shows nothing, the user doesn't brouse malicious sites usually sometimes he screws up and I have to help him but the system is primarily used for office type applications with some brousing and thats it.

He has been away during this period and all I have done is some brousing, updates, etc, I clear my junk after I am done and usually use my own system unless updating it.

So it aint me.




On 26/10/2017 9:11 p.m., Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io wrote:
I've heard of this before, but not on the latest Outlook.
I'm not sure what happens but our local council started to send me dat
files which only had the graphic sig line in it, and all attaches
wseemed to not get sent. Could there be a setting to stop attaching
stuff set somewhere, or an anti virus system removing them?

Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Shaun Everiss"
<sm.everiss@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2017 8:37 AM
Subject: [nvda] outlook 2016 possible issue


Hi.

The main workstation here uses outlook 2016 as its email client.

The main user was away for a couple months and I kept the system
updated.

While there is no issue per say with day to day use of the system,
outlook is now sending the mails all attachments in them at any rate
to everyone as winmail.dat files.

At first I was like well what the heck?

pdfs, documents, etc all in winmail.dat.

I finally decided to get with thunderbird a extention called lookout
fixed which is supposed to pull these things to bits.

In the winmail.dat I found a jpg, a rtf rich text file and another
dat file.

All the documents appear to be empty as far as I can tell.

The user got back in october, there were 2 updates for office one in
september, and one in october.

Tried changing formats to text, but nothing worked.

The format was set to html which means the thing was set correctly in
the first place.

My next plan is to clear the caches of outlook and as it seems to
have happened before the big win10 update my next plan is to do a
quick office repair just in case but am I even doing the right thing?

Everything points at an exchange server which the system has never
accessed in its life its all google cloud mail

Every other system is on thunderbird or directly locked to the cloud
but this is a business box and its never had any issue.

The user has put a request in to get the system and associated hard
drives reformatted.

While this can be done being that this is a 1 time use business
system, office will then become totaly alegal and I will need to go
through hoops to reset the licence.

While that in itself is not the issue I do wander if there is
actually a bug and plan to ring ms about it, as the user didn't have
the issue before.

The format settings have not been touched and bar office and other
system updates bar checking and reading email the system has never
been tampered with by me.

In addition mails are coming to the user fine and he is sending
attachmentless emails and others are recieving them fine.

Has anyone had this issue before, is this a bug, or should I just
reformat and hope the issue goes away.

But if its a bug its not likely to budge they usually don't.








Re: outlook 2016 possible issue

 

Nothing that I know of.

It is happening to all users, it started after the september update, defender shows nothing, the user doesn't brouse malicious sites usually sometimes he screws up and I have to help him but the system is primarily used for office type applications with some brousing and thats it.

He has been away during this period and all I have done is some brousing, updates, etc, I clear my junk after I am done and usually use my own system unless updating it.

So it aint me.

On 26/10/2017 9:11 p.m., Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io wrote:
I've heard of this before, but not on the latest Outlook.
I'm not sure what happens but our local council started to send me dat files which only had the graphic sig line in it, and all attaches wseemed to not get sent. Could there be a setting to stop attaching stuff set somewhere, or an anti virus system removing them?

Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Shaun Everiss" <sm.everiss@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2017 8:37 AM
Subject: [nvda] outlook 2016 possible issue


Hi.

The main workstation here uses outlook 2016 as its email client.

The main user was away for a couple months and I kept the system updated.

While there is no issue per say with day to day use of the system, outlook is now sending the mails all attachments in them at any rate to everyone as winmail.dat files.

At first I was like well what the heck?

pdfs, documents, etc all in winmail.dat.

I finally decided to get with thunderbird a extention called lookout fixed which is supposed to pull these things to bits.

In the winmail.dat I found a jpg, a rtf rich text file and another dat file.

All the documents appear to be empty as far as I can tell.

The user got back in october, there were 2 updates for office one in september, and one in october.

Tried changing formats to text, but nothing worked.

The format was set to html which means the thing was set correctly in the first place.

My next plan is to clear the caches of outlook and as it seems to have happened before the big win10 update my next plan is to do a quick office repair just in case but am I even doing the right thing?

Everything points at an exchange server which the system has never accessed in its life its all google cloud mail

Every other system is on thunderbird or directly locked to the cloud but this is a business box and its never had any issue.

The user has put a request in to get the system and associated hard drives reformatted.

While this can be done being that this is a 1 time use business system, office will then become totaly alegal and I will need to go through hoops to reset the licence.

While that in itself is not the issue I do wander if there is actually a bug and plan to ring ms about it, as the user didn't have the issue before.

The format settings have not been touched and bar office and other system updates bar checking and reading email the system has never been tampered with by me.

In addition mails are coming to the user fine and he is sending attachmentless emails and others are recieving them fine.

Has anyone had this issue before, is this a bug, or should I just reformat and hope the issue goes away.

But if its a bug its not likely to budge they usually don't.







Re: Mandatory advisory: when Firefox 57 lands, do NOT check "prevent accessibility services" checkbox

 

Probably not publicly that doesn't mean its not been tried.

On 26/10/2017 8:58 p.m., Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io wrote:
So then are they not jumping the gun rather in putting out version57 now with much poorer performance via the old method, but still not come up with a workable alternative for screenreaders? Also is there any proof out there that screenreader type code injection has been successfully used to gain access to an operating system or browser. I read access stuff widely and I've not heard of it.
I guess what I'm saying is this. Is all this just paranoia or has it become a problem. If it has, then I'd have thought this issue would have been tackled back in the windows 7 days.


My feeling on this is that there is an element of justification of existence and one upmanship about all this, and in the middle is the customer who is mostly the weakest link in the security screen of software in my experience.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
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----- Original Message ----- From: "Joseph Lee" <joseph.lee22590@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2017 5:55 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Mandatory advisory: when Firefox 57 lands, do NOT check "prevent accessibility services" checkbox


Hi everyone,

It is there as part of a foundation for a very huge work that'll
fundamentally change how screen readers think about communicating with web
browsers. The story goes like this (and if you want, please do pass this
onto others):

In the early days of web accessibility for screen reader users (back when
there was no UIA, no visible standards organizations for accessibility,
etc.), the only effective way for screen readers to present web content was
sending out "scouts" who'll bring back envelopes containing the entire HTML
code for a webpage. These scouts would use a highway called "code injection"
to speed up their travel. Once the envelopes are opened, screen readers will
thread the contents together into a "navigable document". In other words, a
web document was constructed twice for you: once on the web browser window,
and rendered by your screen reader a second time on top of that.

The advantage of this method is that screen readers knew where things were,
because they had a "map" in front of them that pointed to where the next
given element was, listing postings with routes to links on the document and
so on. This meant navigating around a page was simple and very fast.
However, this opened a chasm: if a screen reader was walking along a path
and was "kidnapped" one day, the "kidnapper" would force the screen reader
to give commands to "scouts", whose only job was to fetch something on
behalf of their leader.

Fast forward almost two decades, and current screen reader and web browser
landscape is filled with those who travel by the code injection highway, and
those who send and receive "letters" and "beacons". The former is the case
with Internet Explorer and older versions of Firefox, and the latter is for
Microsoft Edge. These days, more web browsers are asking screen readers to
send more letters than scouts, which has huge implications for users and
developers.

Technical (if you want, please do send this out to others): first, some
definitions:

* Scout: code injection routines, typically a DLL from a screen reader
that inserts a piece of screen reader code inside a web browser to construct
webpages.
* Code injection: programs inserting code into each other's workspaces
with or without others (including operating systems) noticing it.
* Workspace: memory used by programs. Typically called "address
space".
* Letters: API and other well-documented routines or contracts.
* Beacons: instructions from web browsers for screen readers,
especially referring to document movement routines.

With this in mind, the geeky version is as follows:

When MSAA first came out in late 1990's, it was designed to let screen
readers receive information about program controls, mostly static ones.
Hence, it wasn't really designed for places such as web browsers where
document content can change without notice. For this case, screen readers
will inject part of their code (typically in the form of a DLL) inside a web
browser process to monitor events such as when a website is being loaded.
Once the DLL realizes that you've navigated to a new page, it'll fetch the
entire HTML code for that page and send it back to main screen reader code.
This main code, typically in the form of a document formatting library, will
construct (technically, reconstruct) a webpage according to rules it knows
best.

But imagine a malware comes along and takes over a screen reader (which can
actually happen if a malware holds special privileges and exploits a
weakness in screen readers). Unless the malware doesn't know about it, it
now has a way to inject itself into other processes (not just web browsers)
in the form of a screen reader DLL or redirecting the DLL's operation to the
malware module. This is made more possible by the fact that screen readers
are deemed TRUSTED by operating systems, which means screen readers can
perform tasks other programs are envious of (including starting early). This
is perhaps one of the most critical security holes that can be opened by
anyone (besides taking over an operating system routine or an important DLL
or a driver). In theory, you can get around this by starting a pristine
(clean) screen reader, but even that can be attacked if the malware wishes
to do so.

These days, web browsers are taking the initiative to close the code
injection gateway. An early start was some old browsers, including Internet
Explorer 7, but even then, screen readers have found a way to open the
gateway. Due to security concerns, Microsoft Edge will not allow code
injection; instead, screen readers are asked to use UIA to communicate with
Edge and to yield document navigation routines to Edge itself. Same will
happen with a future version of Firefox, but we don't know when that'll
happen. NV Access is taking this possibility seriously and are actively
working with Mozilla to rectify this as soon as possible (also, don't forget
that a former NVDA developer is now working for Mozilla Foundation, and NV
Access and Mozilla have a good relationship regarding mutual support,
especially when it comes to web standards and accessibility).

Reference:

* Zehe, Marco. Rethinking Web Accessibility on Windows, Marco's
Accessibility Blog, September 29, 2017. URL:
https://www.marcozehe.de/2017/09/29/rethinking-web-accessibility-on-windows/

Cheers,

Joseph





From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene New
Zealand
Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2017 9:23 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Mandatory advisory: when Firefox 57 lands, do NOT check
"prevent accessibility services" checkbox



Hi Joseph



Why would they put in such a setting?



I am guessing if checked it would speed up the browser for the sighted but
be use less if checked for us.



Gene nz





On 10/26/2017 4:50 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi,

You need to keep this checkbox unchecked. And I haven't found an easy way to
reverse this at the moment (Alt+T, O won't work here).

Cheers,

Joseph

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
[mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2017 8:43 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Mandatory advisory: when Firefox 57 lands, do NOT check
"prevent accessibility services" checkbox



How do you disable it if you can't work with menus and all the other
structures you discussed?  Can you use the command alt t then o to get into
the options dialog and can it be worked with?  Are you saying that we need
to check this check box in the options dialog?



Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Joseph Lee <mailto:joseph.lee22590@gmail.com>

Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2017 10:34 PM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>

Subject: [nvda] Mandatory advisory: when Firefox 57 lands, do NOT check
"prevent accessibility services" checkbox



Hi all,

Well, the tests ended so fast.



The following is a community-based advisory that is mandatory for you all to
listen up and follow:



If Firefox 57 is set to prevent accessibility services, you won't be able to
use Firefox at all. The following NVDA features will fail:



* Browse mode and focus mode
* Web browser features such as elements list and first letter
navigation commands
* Object navigation and review modes
* OCR functionality



ADVISORY: when Firefox 57 lands, DO NOT check "prevent accessibility
services" checkbox in Firefox options. By default, this checkbox is
unchecked.



Technical: NVDA uses mixture of code injection and accessibility API
routines to access Firefox. However, when accessibility services are turned
off, Firefox enters a mode where the UI and browse mode functionality will
not work with screen readers. This means no announcements regarding menu
bar, no toolbar navigation feedback, no feedback when you type into address
bar, no browse mode and so on. The only way to restore it so far is
disabling the checkbox described above until NVDA finds a way to interact
with Firefox Quantum.



Cheers,

Joseph



--


Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related material
at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net Regardless of where you are in New
Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you can use a copy of the NVDA
screen reader on one of their computers. To find out which locations (or
location) is near to you please visit
http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries (Aotearoa
People's Network Kaharoa). To find an NVDA certified expert near you, please
visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The
certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified individuals
from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA expert
exam.






Re: Firefox Quantum. ver 57 are we ready?

 

It does seem that while usefull there is a hole in old access systems.

We are just not there yet, but we are almost there.

Most of windows is uia, and why firefox is slow is its probably in transition to the new system.

I do hope that system eventually exists but well.

On 26/10/2017 8:31 p.m., Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io wrote:
Its fine but I'm using 55 and have turned off updates. if they have messed it up in 57, they need to create a new maintained branch I would imagine so that anyone who relies on Firefox is protected against losing the ability to use it and its current add on systems.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Ron Canazzi" <aa2vm@roadrunner.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2017 3:57 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Firefox Quantum. ver 57 are we ready?


Hi again Group,


I noticed that this is Firefox 52--a full 5 versions behind the 57
version due to be released in November. Is this at all safe?



On 10/25/2017 10:12 PM, Jaffar Sidek wrote:

There will be problems using ScreenReders with the Firefox Quantum due
to be released on November 14th. It is advised that the ESR version
of Firefox should be installed and your current personal Firefox
version be uninstalled to prevent it from automatically updating to
the latest but broken Firefox Quantum, as far as ScreenReader
usability goes. Go here to download FireFox ESR to maintain
ScreenReader usability as this version won't be updated until June of
next year, by which time, it is hoped that the personal edition of
Firefox and ScreenReader usability will be resolved.

https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/organizations/all/

Plese press T to find the table of available languages, plus Operating
Systems, and arrow down to the appropriate language and OS of your
choice. Unfortunately, the navigation of this table is not made any
easier due to the lack of hadings, but patiently scroll down with your
arrow key and you should find what you need. Cheers!


On 26/10/2017 8:46 AM, Gene wrote:
The free upgrade won't be available after a time, I think it's a few
months from now. but you don't have to upgrade and remain upgraded.
You can upgrade and then go back to whatever you are using now.
Then, since you have upgraded, you can upgrade again later if you
wish. I don't know the details of how you upgrade again and from
what I've read, if you upgrade and then downgrade, you have to do
some things to get everything back as it was. Just because the free
upgrade is going away, that doesn't mean you have to do anything.
How old is your machine? How likely is it that it will still be
working when support ends for whatever version of Windows you are
running now? How old are your peripherals such as printer and
scanner? Are there Windows 10 drivers for them? The free upgrade
might not be so free.
Is there anything in Windows 10 you want?
Gene
----- Original Message -----
*From:* Gene New Zealand <mailto:hurrikennyandopo@outlook.co.nz>
*Sent:* Wednesday, October 25, 2017 7:35 PM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*Subject:* [nvda] Firefox Quantum. ver 57 are we ready?

Hi guys


I just had a email off another list to do with another screen reader
to do with the new fire fox coming out next month the one stated in
the subject line. Are we alright to go with it as of yet? or will we
be aright with it in the next release of NVDA 2017.4 or the version
after that.


I have not got that version on this system so do not know how well it
works with it. From what i have been reading is more to do with
multii thread machines.


And older machines will slow the right down as in searching for pages
etc.


It looks also the free upgrade to windows 10 from 7,8 and 8.1 ends at
the end of this year.


So if you are able to upgrade from those operating system either
upgrade or after that date if you want to go to windows 10 you will
have to pay.


There is also some other accessibility stuff that might be of
interest to windows 10 creator update. For more info see the
following link at
https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/accessibility/2017/10/17/windows-10-accessibility-update/

Once i know also about the new browser and when we are able to go i
will put it back across the list in atig in new zealand.


Gene nz


--
Image NVDA certified expert
Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related
material at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net Regardless of where
you are in New Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you can
use a copy of the NVDA screen reader on one of their computers. To
find out which locations (or location) is near to you please visit
http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries
(Aotearoa People's Network Kaharoa). To find an NVDA certified expert
near you, please visit the following link
https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The certification page contains
the official list of NVDA certified individuals from around the
world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA expert exam.
--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"




Re: Mandatory advisory: when Firefox 57 lands, do NOT check "prevent accessibility services" checkbox

 

Hmmm well that kind a makes some sence.

The way screen readers read does possibly slow things down and it does open a security hole.

So these days access routeens as they are are floored.

The only issue I have is why we didn't close uia earlier.

The other issue or question I have is how to have a reliable uia especially with the issues it seems to have on a day to day basus especially with the ms update cycle as it is, its getting harder and harder to stay with that cycle and screen readers just like programs that are used seem to be taking the brunt.

It would be like every os update you would need a new video card or something like it.

On 26/10/2017 5:55 p.m., Joseph Lee wrote:
Hi everyone,

It is there as part of a foundation for a very huge work that'll
fundamentally change how screen readers think about communicating with web
browsers. The story goes like this (and if you want, please do pass this
onto others):

In the early days of web accessibility for screen reader users (back when
there was no UIA, no visible standards organizations for accessibility,
etc.), the only effective way for screen readers to present web content was
sending out "scouts" who'll bring back envelopes containing the entire HTML
code for a webpage. These scouts would use a highway called "code injection"
to speed up their travel. Once the envelopes are opened, screen readers will
thread the contents together into a "navigable document". In other words, a
web document was constructed twice for you: once on the web browser window,
and rendered by your screen reader a second time on top of that.

The advantage of this method is that screen readers knew where things were,
because they had a "map" in front of them that pointed to where the next
given element was, listing postings with routes to links on the document and
so on. This meant navigating around a page was simple and very fast.
However, this opened a chasm: if a screen reader was walking along a path
and was "kidnapped" one day, the "kidnapper" would force the screen reader
to give commands to "scouts", whose only job was to fetch something on
behalf of their leader.

Fast forward almost two decades, and current screen reader and web browser
landscape is filled with those who travel by the code injection highway, and
those who send and receive "letters" and "beacons". The former is the case
with Internet Explorer and older versions of Firefox, and the latter is for
Microsoft Edge. These days, more web browsers are asking screen readers to
send more letters than scouts, which has huge implications for users and
developers.

Technical (if you want, please do send this out to others): first, some
definitions:

* Scout: code injection routines, typically a DLL from a screen reader
that inserts a piece of screen reader code inside a web browser to construct
webpages.
* Code injection: programs inserting code into each other's workspaces
with or without others (including operating systems) noticing it.
* Workspace: memory used by programs. Typically called "address
space".
* Letters: API and other well-documented routines or contracts.
* Beacons: instructions from web browsers for screen readers,
especially referring to document movement routines.

With this in mind, the geeky version is as follows:

When MSAA first came out in late 1990's, it was designed to let screen
readers receive information about program controls, mostly static ones.
Hence, it wasn't really designed for places such as web browsers where
document content can change without notice. For this case, screen readers
will inject part of their code (typically in the form of a DLL) inside a web
browser process to monitor events such as when a website is being loaded.
Once the DLL realizes that you've navigated to a new page, it'll fetch the
entire HTML code for that page and send it back to main screen reader code.
This main code, typically in the form of a document formatting library, will
construct (technically, reconstruct) a webpage according to rules it knows
best.

But imagine a malware comes along and takes over a screen reader (which can
actually happen if a malware holds special privileges and exploits a
weakness in screen readers). Unless the malware doesn't know about it, it
now has a way to inject itself into other processes (not just web browsers)
in the form of a screen reader DLL or redirecting the DLL's operation to the
malware module. This is made more possible by the fact that screen readers
are deemed TRUSTED by operating systems, which means screen readers can
perform tasks other programs are envious of (including starting early). This
is perhaps one of the most critical security holes that can be opened by
anyone (besides taking over an operating system routine or an important DLL
or a driver). In theory, you can get around this by starting a pristine
(clean) screen reader, but even that can be attacked if the malware wishes
to do so.

These days, web browsers are taking the initiative to close the code
injection gateway. An early start was some old browsers, including Internet
Explorer 7, but even then, screen readers have found a way to open the
gateway. Due to security concerns, Microsoft Edge will not allow code
injection; instead, screen readers are asked to use UIA to communicate with
Edge and to yield document navigation routines to Edge itself. Same will
happen with a future version of Firefox, but we don't know when that'll
happen. NV Access is taking this possibility seriously and are actively
working with Mozilla to rectify this as soon as possible (also, don't forget
that a former NVDA developer is now working for Mozilla Foundation, and NV
Access and Mozilla have a good relationship regarding mutual support,
especially when it comes to web standards and accessibility).

Reference:

* Zehe, Marco. Rethinking Web Accessibility on Windows, Marco's
Accessibility Blog, September 29, 2017. URL:
https://www.marcozehe.de/2017/09/29/rethinking-web-accessibility-on-windows/

Cheers,

Joseph



From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene New
Zealand
Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2017 9:23 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Mandatory advisory: when Firefox 57 lands, do NOT check
"prevent accessibility services" checkbox


Hi Joseph


Why would they put in such a setting?


I am guessing if checked it would speed up the browser for the sighted but
be use less if checked for us.


Gene nz



On 10/26/2017 4:50 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi,

You need to keep this checkbox unchecked. And I haven't found an easy way to
reverse this at the moment (Alt+T, O won't work here).

Cheers,

Joseph

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
[mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2017 8:43 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Mandatory advisory: when Firefox 57 lands, do NOT check
"prevent accessibility services" checkbox


How do you disable it if you can't work with menus and all the other
structures you discussed? Can you use the command alt t then o to get into
the options dialog and can it be worked with? Are you saying that we need
to check this check box in the options dialog?


Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Joseph Lee <mailto:joseph.lee22590@gmail.com>

Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2017 10:34 PM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>

Subject: [nvda] Mandatory advisory: when Firefox 57 lands, do NOT check
"prevent accessibility services" checkbox


Hi all,

Well, the tests ended so fast.


The following is a community-based advisory that is mandatory for you all to
listen up and follow:


If Firefox 57 is set to prevent accessibility services, you won't be able to
use Firefox at all. The following NVDA features will fail:


* Browse mode and focus mode
* Web browser features such as elements list and first letter
navigation commands
* Object navigation and review modes
* OCR functionality


ADVISORY: when Firefox 57 lands, DO NOT check "prevent accessibility
services" checkbox in Firefox options. By default, this checkbox is
unchecked.


Technical: NVDA uses mixture of code injection and accessibility API
routines to access Firefox. However, when accessibility services are turned
off, Firefox enters a mode where the UI and browse mode functionality will
not work with screen readers. This means no announcements regarding menu
bar, no toolbar navigation feedback, no feedback when you type into address
bar, no browse mode and so on. The only way to restore it so far is
disabling the checkbox described above until NVDA finds a way to interact
with Firefox Quantum.


Cheers,

Joseph


Re: Mandatory advisory: when Firefox 57 lands, do NOT check "prevent accessibility services" checkbox

 

Why would you want to disable accessability at all.

On 26/10/2017 4:34 p.m., Joseph Lee wrote:
Hi all,

Well, the tests ended so fast.


The following is a community-based advisory that is mandatory for you all to
listen up and follow:


If Firefox 57 is set to prevent accessibility services, you won't be able to
use Firefox at all. The following NVDA features will fail:


* Browse mode and focus mode
* Web browser features such as elements list and first letter
navigation commands
* Object navigation and review modes
* OCR functionality


ADVISORY: when Firefox 57 lands, DO NOT check "prevent accessibility
services" checkbox in Firefox options. By default, this checkbox is
unchecked.


Technical: NVDA uses mixture of code injection and accessibility API
routines to access Firefox. However, when accessibility services are turned
off, Firefox enters a mode where the UI and browse mode functionality will
not work with screen readers. This means no announcements regarding menu
bar, no toolbar navigation feedback, no feedback when you type into address
bar, no browse mode and so on. The only way to restore it so far is
disabling the checkbox described above until NVDA finds a way to interact
with Firefox Quantum.


Cheers,

Joseph


Re: Mandatory advisory: when Firefox 57 lands, do NOT check "prevent accessibility services" checkbox

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

But I gathered its no onby default so if you put it on then you obviously wont be able to turn it off as that is the whole point of it according to Joseph.
Suggestion
On many self voicing programs I have found these settings of checkboxes are in the registry and having access to two machines can show what has been changed and the registry updated manually or via merging in a overwriting file from an admin account.

Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Mendoza" <lowvisiontek@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2017 8:52 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Mandatory advisory: when Firefox 57 lands, do NOT check "prevent accessibility services" checkbox


Hi,

Sorry to interfere the discussion here. I am playing around to test the beta version of Firefox to my other machine. However, the problem is that I could not go to the Permission section under the Privacy and Security panel to disable the Prevent accessibility services. I am currently using nvda version 2017.3 into my Windows 10. I appreciate your response. Thanks.

Robert Mendoza

On 10/26/2017 3:39 PM, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io wrote:
That last point about the error of no page loaded has been with FF for over 1 year to my knowledge. I'm always hitting try again even on a fast machine, I think the problem is some internal code is too hasty at giving up trying to get the page. It also manifests itself on places like File Hippo update checker where the list of updates is completely missed off the page unless you refresh it.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
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----- Original Message ----- From: "Gene New Zealand" <hurrikennyandopo@outlook.co.nz>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2017 5:19 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Mandatory advisory: when Firefox 57 lands, do NOT check "prevent accessibility services" checkbox


Hi gene


I downloaded the 57 beta a little while ago and found the setting he was talking about. Mine was already unchecked. I downloaded the beta of 57 and i am just looking around now.


The menus are been spoken. The quick navigation keys seem to be working etc.


There is a little lag some times when you go to the menus and or left or right arrow. I was just having a look in the options section it looks like only 4 tabs now


I have read a couple of articles so far from our stuff website and gone back and forth between pages.


as mentioned there is a little lag at times seems no worser than 56 actually at a few times seemed quicker.


Now and again you have to refresh the page as like the page does not load and using the f5 key lets it load.


Gene nz


On 10/26/2017 4:43 PM, Gene wrote:
How do you disable it if you can't work with menus and all the other structures you discussed? Can you use the command alt t then o to get into the options dialog and can it be worked with? Are you saying that we need to check this check box in the options dialog?

Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Joseph Lee<mailto:joseph.lee22590@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2017 10:34 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: [nvda] Mandatory advisory: when Firefox 57 lands, do NOT check "prevent accessibility services" checkbox

Hi all,
Well, the tests ended so fast…

The following is a community-based advisory that is mandatory for you all to listen up and follow:

If Firefox 57 is set to prevent accessibility services, you won’t be able to use Firefox at all. The following NVDA features will fail:


* Browse mode and focus mode
* Web browser features such as elements list and first letter navigation commands
* Object navigation and review modes
* OCR functionality

ADVISORY: when Firefox 57 lands, DO NOT check “prevent accessibility services” checkbox in Firefox options. By default, this checkbox is unchecked.

Technical: NVDA uses mixture of code injection and accessibility API routines to access Firefox. However, when accessibility services are turned off, Firefox enters a mode where the UI and browse mode functionality will not work with screen readers. This means no announcements regarding menu bar, no toolbar navigation feedback, no feedback when you type into address bar, no browse mode and so on. The only way to restore it so far is disabling the checkbox described above until NVDA finds a way to interact with Firefox Quantum.

Cheers,
Joseph


--
[Image NVDA certified expert]
Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related material at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net Regardless of where you are in New Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you can use a copy of the NVDA screen reader on one of their computers. To find out which locations (or location) is near to you please visit http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries (Aotearoa People's Network Kaharoa). To find an NVDA certified expert near you, please visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified individuals from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA expert exam.




Re: outlook 2016 possible issue

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

I've heard of this before, but not on the latest Outlook.
I'm not sure what happens but our local council started to send me dat files which only had the graphic sig line in it, and all attaches wseemed to not get sent. Could there be a setting to stop attaching stuff set somewhere, or an anti virus system removing them?

Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Shaun Everiss" <sm.everiss@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2017 8:37 AM
Subject: [nvda] outlook 2016 possible issue


Hi.

The main workstation here uses outlook 2016 as its email client.

The main user was away for a couple months and I kept the system updated.

While there is no issue per say with day to day use of the system, outlook is now sending the mails all attachments in them at any rate to everyone as winmail.dat files.

At first I was like well what the heck?

pdfs, documents, etc all in winmail.dat.

I finally decided to get with thunderbird a extention called lookout fixed which is supposed to pull these things to bits.

In the winmail.dat I found a jpg, a rtf rich text file and another dat file.

All the documents appear to be empty as far as I can tell.

The user got back in october, there were 2 updates for office one in september, and one in october.

Tried changing formats to text, but nothing worked.

The format was set to html which means the thing was set correctly in the first place.

My next plan is to clear the caches of outlook and as it seems to have happened before the big win10 update my next plan is to do a quick office repair just in case but am I even doing the right thing?

Everything points at an exchange server which the system has never accessed in its life its all google cloud mail

Every other system is on thunderbird or directly locked to the cloud but this is a business box and its never had any issue.

The user has put a request in to get the system and associated hard drives reformatted.

While this can be done being that this is a 1 time use business system, office will then become totaly alegal and I will need to go through hoops to reset the licence.

While that in itself is not the issue I do wander if there is actually a bug and plan to ring ms about it, as the user didn't have the issue before.

The format settings have not been touched and bar office and other system updates bar checking and reading email the system has never been tampered with by me.

In addition mails are coming to the user fine and he is sending attachmentless emails and others are recieving them fine.

Has anyone had this issue before, is this a bug, or should I just reformat and hope the issue goes away.

But if its a bug its not likely to budge they usually don't.




Re: Using Win 10's Mail App

 

Hmmm I have another issue, outlook since september /october likes to send all attachments as winmail.dat the exchange format though its been set to html and never changed.

I have sent a support ticket to ms because I suspect it a bug but I do wander about outlook.

Most of my other users use gmail direct and  thunderbird.

On 26/10/2017 6:02 a.m., John Isige wrote:
Microsoft's various mail programs have always been weird though. I used to use Outlook, the one that came in Office. Then I had to upgrade or migrate machines or whatever. So I exported mail and everything just like you're supposed to. Got everything installed, imported into the new Outlook. Suddenly none of my filtering rules to send messages to specific folders would work. So I literally deleted them all and recreated them from scratch, and they still wouldn't work. That's when I switched to Thunderbird and I've been using it ever since.


.


Re: Firefox Quantum. ver 57 are we ready?

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

That should have said my 55, where the 4 came from is unknown!
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io" <bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2017 8:27 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Firefox Quantum. ver 57 are we ready?


Well when I asked over a month back nobody knew what I was talking about, so I'm staying on 455 till I see which way the wind blows. Unless otherwise persuaded even though I have a 64 bit machine I have in the past been burned by the 64 bit version of FF, so I am using the 32 bit one very reliably, until they brought out 56, when I had to disable the sidebar to get focus on the page all the time. I reported this bug but they did not fix it in 56, instead fixing it in the 57 pre release versions which I've not tried.
For those who do know what is going on, a little bit more info here would be nice, like can we be sure if we download 57, that we can keep it 32 bi5t and that the weird bugs with some web controls will be fixed, and vital add ons like system sounds and ad blockers will still work.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene New Zealand" <hurrikennyandopo@outlook.co.nz>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2017 1:35 AM
Subject: [nvda] Firefox Quantum. ver 57 are we ready?


Hi guys


I just had a email off another list to do with another screen reader to do with the new fire fox coming out next month the one stated in the subject line. Are we alright to go with it as of yet? or will we be aright with it in the next release of NVDA 2017.4 or the version after that.


I have not got that version on this system so do not know how well it works with it. From what i have been reading is more to do with multii thread machines.


And older machines will slow the right down as in searching for pages etc.


It looks also the free upgrade to windows 10 from 7,8 and 8.1 ends at the end of this year.


So if you are able to upgrade from those operating system either upgrade or after that date if you want to go to windows 10 you will have to pay.


There is also some other accessibility stuff that might be of interest to windows 10 creator update. For more info see the following link at https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/accessibility/2017/10/17/windows-10-accessibility-update/

Once i know also about the new browser and when we are able to go i will put it back across the list in atig in new zealand.


Gene nz


--
[Image NVDA certified expert]
Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related material at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net Regardless of where you are in New Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you can use a copy of the NVDA screen reader on one of their computers. To find out which locations (or location) is near to you please visit http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries (Aotearoa People's Network Kaharoa). To find an NVDA certified expert near you, please visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified individuals from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA expert exam.


Re: Mandatory advisory: when Firefox 57 lands, do NOT check "prevent accessibility services" checkbox

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

It is really silly that we went through all that grief a while back to support multi processors and hopefully speed it up to end up scrapping all that work and going off on a new tack which is worse, at least until they reinvent their wheel next time.
As a matter of interest, is there any sign of Chrome going down this road as well?
I'm also wondering if there might be some third party out there making a browser based on the old Gecko engine that we could use instead.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Joseph Lee" <joseph.lee22590@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2017 6:31 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Mandatory advisory: when Firefox 57 lands, do NOT check "prevent accessibility services" checkbox


Hi,

If unchecked, it'll behave like old versions (usable, although slower).

Cheers,

Joseph



From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Ron
Canazzi
Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2017 10:27 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Mandatory advisory: when Firefox 57 lands, do NOT check
"prevent accessibility services" checkbox



Hi Joseph,



So if you leave that checkbox unchecked, how accessible is Firefox Quantum
then?





On 10/25/2017 11:34 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi all,

Well, the tests ended so fast.



The following is a community-based advisory that is mandatory for you all to
listen up and follow:



If Firefox 57 is set to prevent accessibility services, you won't be able to
use Firefox at all. The following NVDA features will fail:



* Browse mode and focus mode
* Web browser features such as elements list and first letter
navigation commands
* Object navigation and review modes
* OCR functionality



ADVISORY: when Firefox 57 lands, DO NOT check "prevent accessibility
services" checkbox in Firefox options. By default, this checkbox is
unchecked.



Technical: NVDA uses mixture of code injection and accessibility API
routines to access Firefox. However, when accessibility services are turned
off, Firefox enters a mode where the UI and browse mode functionality will
not work with screen readers. This means no announcements regarding menu
bar, no toolbar navigation feedback, no feedback when you type into address
bar, no browse mode and so on. The only way to restore it so far is
disabling the checkbox described above until NVDA finds a way to interact
with Firefox Quantum.



Cheers,

Joseph





--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"




Re: Mandatory advisory: when Firefox 57 lands, do NOT check "prevent accessibility services" checkbox

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

But although I never use twitface, I do use bbc and 55 seems still reasonably snappy with that site. However some of the main newspapers web sites are really just too busy with rubbish in my view, and this is off topic to some degree. I'm oftentold by mainstream sighted people that they are now finding web sites with bells whistles and clutter to be very hard to use and want the old days of simplicity back. So do we!
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
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in the display name field.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Joseph Lee" <joseph.lee22590@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2017 5:57 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Mandatory advisory: when Firefox 57 lands, do NOT check "prevent accessibility services" checkbox


Hi,

As for that, it is due to the fact that Firefox is using multiple processes
for accessibility routines, which impacts NVDA.

Cheers,

Joseph



From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Jaffar
Sidek
Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2017 9:49 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Mandatory advisory: when Firefox 57 lands, do NOT check
"prevent accessibility services" checkbox



There will be a problem when browsing through very dense web pages with lots
of links and info. I just tried facebook.com, talksport.com, bbcNews.com,
these pages are so sluggish that it would be better to use internet explorer
instead. Cheers!



On 26/10/2017 12:19 PM, Gene New Zealand wrote:

Hi gene



I downloaded the 57 beta a little while ago and found the setting he was
talking about. Mine was already unchecked. I downloaded the beta of 57 and i
am just looking around now.



The menus are been spoken. The quick navigation keys seem to be working etc.



There is a little lag some times when you go to the menus and or left or
right arrow. I was just having a look in the options section it looks like
only 4 tabs now



I have read a couple of articles so far from our stuff website and gone back
and forth between pages.



as mentioned there is a little lag at times seems no worser than 56 actually
at a few times seemed quicker.



Now and again you have to refresh the page as like the page does not load
and using the f5 key lets it load.



Gene nz





On 10/26/2017 4:43 PM, Gene wrote:

How do you disable it if you can't work with menus and all the other
structures you discussed? Can you use the command alt t then o to get into
the options dialog and can it be worked with? Are you saying that we need
to check this check box in the options dialog?



Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Joseph Lee <mailto:joseph.lee22590@gmail.com>

Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2017 10:34 PM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>

Subject: [nvda] Mandatory advisory: when Firefox 57 lands, do NOT check
"prevent accessibility services" checkbox



Hi all,

Well, the tests ended so fast.



The following is a community-based advisory that is mandatory for you all to
listen up and follow:



If Firefox 57 is set to prevent accessibility services, you won't be able to
use Firefox at all. The following NVDA features will fail:



* Browse mode and focus mode
* Web browser features such as elements list and first letter
navigation commands
* Object navigation and review modes
* OCR functionality



ADVISORY: when Firefox 57 lands, DO NOT check "prevent accessibility
services" checkbox in Firefox options. By default, this checkbox is
unchecked.



Technical: NVDA uses mixture of code injection and accessibility API
routines to access Firefox. However, when accessibility services are turned
off, Firefox enters a mode where the UI and browse mode functionality will
not work with screen readers. This means no announcements regarding menu
bar, no toolbar navigation feedback, no feedback when you type into address
bar, no browse mode and so on. The only way to restore it so far is
disabling the checkbox described above until NVDA finds a way to interact
with Firefox Quantum.



Cheers,

Joseph



--


Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related material
at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net Regardless of where you are in New
Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you can use a copy of the NVDA
screen reader on one of their computers. To find out which locations (or
location) is near to you please visit
http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries (Aotearoa
People's Network Kaharoa). To find an NVDA certified expert near you, please
visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The
certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified individuals
from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA expert
exam.






Re: Mandatory advisory: when Firefox 57 lands, do NOT check "prevent accessibility services" checkbox

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

So then are they not jumping the gun rather in putting out version57 now with much poorer performance via the old method, but still not come up with a workable alternative for screenreaders? Also is there any proof out there that screenreader type code injection has been successfully used to gain access to an operating system or browser. I read access stuff widely and I've not heard of it.
I guess what I'm saying is this. Is all this just paranoia or has it become a problem. If it has, then I'd have thought this issue would have been tackled back in the windows 7 days.


My feeling on this is that there is an element of justification of existence and one upmanship about all this, and in the middle is the customer who is mostly the weakest link in the security screen of software in my experience.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Joseph Lee" <joseph.lee22590@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2017 5:55 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Mandatory advisory: when Firefox 57 lands, do NOT check "prevent accessibility services" checkbox


Hi everyone,

It is there as part of a foundation for a very huge work that'll
fundamentally change how screen readers think about communicating with web
browsers. The story goes like this (and if you want, please do pass this
onto others):

In the early days of web accessibility for screen reader users (back when
there was no UIA, no visible standards organizations for accessibility,
etc.), the only effective way for screen readers to present web content was
sending out "scouts" who'll bring back envelopes containing the entire HTML
code for a webpage. These scouts would use a highway called "code injection"
to speed up their travel. Once the envelopes are opened, screen readers will
thread the contents together into a "navigable document". In other words, a
web document was constructed twice for you: once on the web browser window,
and rendered by your screen reader a second time on top of that.

The advantage of this method is that screen readers knew where things were,
because they had a "map" in front of them that pointed to where the next
given element was, listing postings with routes to links on the document and
so on. This meant navigating around a page was simple and very fast.
However, this opened a chasm: if a screen reader was walking along a path
and was "kidnapped" one day, the "kidnapper" would force the screen reader
to give commands to "scouts", whose only job was to fetch something on
behalf of their leader.

Fast forward almost two decades, and current screen reader and web browser
landscape is filled with those who travel by the code injection highway, and
those who send and receive "letters" and "beacons". The former is the case
with Internet Explorer and older versions of Firefox, and the latter is for
Microsoft Edge. These days, more web browsers are asking screen readers to
send more letters than scouts, which has huge implications for users and
developers.

Technical (if you want, please do send this out to others): first, some
definitions:

* Scout: code injection routines, typically a DLL from a screen reader
that inserts a piece of screen reader code inside a web browser to construct
webpages.
* Code injection: programs inserting code into each other's workspaces
with or without others (including operating systems) noticing it.
* Workspace: memory used by programs. Typically called "address
space".
* Letters: API and other well-documented routines or contracts.
* Beacons: instructions from web browsers for screen readers,
especially referring to document movement routines.

With this in mind, the geeky version is as follows:

When MSAA first came out in late 1990's, it was designed to let screen
readers receive information about program controls, mostly static ones.
Hence, it wasn't really designed for places such as web browsers where
document content can change without notice. For this case, screen readers
will inject part of their code (typically in the form of a DLL) inside a web
browser process to monitor events such as when a website is being loaded.
Once the DLL realizes that you've navigated to a new page, it'll fetch the
entire HTML code for that page and send it back to main screen reader code.
This main code, typically in the form of a document formatting library, will
construct (technically, reconstruct) a webpage according to rules it knows
best.

But imagine a malware comes along and takes over a screen reader (which can
actually happen if a malware holds special privileges and exploits a
weakness in screen readers). Unless the malware doesn't know about it, it
now has a way to inject itself into other processes (not just web browsers)
in the form of a screen reader DLL or redirecting the DLL's operation to the
malware module. This is made more possible by the fact that screen readers
are deemed TRUSTED by operating systems, which means screen readers can
perform tasks other programs are envious of (including starting early). This
is perhaps one of the most critical security holes that can be opened by
anyone (besides taking over an operating system routine or an important DLL
or a driver). In theory, you can get around this by starting a pristine
(clean) screen reader, but even that can be attacked if the malware wishes
to do so.

These days, web browsers are taking the initiative to close the code
injection gateway. An early start was some old browsers, including Internet
Explorer 7, but even then, screen readers have found a way to open the
gateway. Due to security concerns, Microsoft Edge will not allow code
injection; instead, screen readers are asked to use UIA to communicate with
Edge and to yield document navigation routines to Edge itself. Same will
happen with a future version of Firefox, but we don't know when that'll
happen. NV Access is taking this possibility seriously and are actively
working with Mozilla to rectify this as soon as possible (also, don't forget
that a former NVDA developer is now working for Mozilla Foundation, and NV
Access and Mozilla have a good relationship regarding mutual support,
especially when it comes to web standards and accessibility).

Reference:

* Zehe, Marco. Rethinking Web Accessibility on Windows, Marco's
Accessibility Blog, September 29, 2017. URL:
https://www.marcozehe.de/2017/09/29/rethinking-web-accessibility-on-windows/

Cheers,

Joseph





From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene New
Zealand
Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2017 9:23 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Mandatory advisory: when Firefox 57 lands, do NOT check
"prevent accessibility services" checkbox



Hi Joseph



Why would they put in such a setting?



I am guessing if checked it would speed up the browser for the sighted but
be use less if checked for us.



Gene nz





On 10/26/2017 4:50 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi,

You need to keep this checkbox unchecked. And I haven't found an easy way to
reverse this at the moment (Alt+T, O won't work here).

Cheers,

Joseph

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
[mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2017 8:43 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Mandatory advisory: when Firefox 57 lands, do NOT check
"prevent accessibility services" checkbox



How do you disable it if you can't work with menus and all the other
structures you discussed? Can you use the command alt t then o to get into
the options dialog and can it be worked with? Are you saying that we need
to check this check box in the options dialog?



Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Joseph Lee <mailto:joseph.lee22590@gmail.com>

Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2017 10:34 PM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>

Subject: [nvda] Mandatory advisory: when Firefox 57 lands, do NOT check
"prevent accessibility services" checkbox



Hi all,

Well, the tests ended so fast.



The following is a community-based advisory that is mandatory for you all to
listen up and follow:



If Firefox 57 is set to prevent accessibility services, you won't be able to
use Firefox at all. The following NVDA features will fail:



* Browse mode and focus mode
* Web browser features such as elements list and first letter
navigation commands
* Object navigation and review modes
* OCR functionality



ADVISORY: when Firefox 57 lands, DO NOT check "prevent accessibility
services" checkbox in Firefox options. By default, this checkbox is
unchecked.



Technical: NVDA uses mixture of code injection and accessibility API
routines to access Firefox. However, when accessibility services are turned
off, Firefox enters a mode where the UI and browse mode functionality will
not work with screen readers. This means no announcements regarding menu
bar, no toolbar navigation feedback, no feedback when you type into address
bar, no browse mode and so on. The only way to restore it so far is
disabling the checkbox described above until NVDA finds a way to interact
with Firefox Quantum.



Cheers,

Joseph



--


Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related material
at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net Regardless of where you are in New
Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you can use a copy of the NVDA
screen reader on one of their computers. To find out which locations (or
location) is near to you please visit
http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries (Aotearoa
People's Network Kaharoa). To find an NVDA certified expert near you, please
visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The
certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified individuals
from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA expert
exam.




Re: Mandatory advisory: when Firefox 57 lands, do NOT check "prevent accessibility services" checkbox

Robert Mendoza
 

Hi,

Sorry to interfere the discussion here. I am playing around to test the beta version of Firefox to my other machine. However, the problem is that I could not go to the Permission section under the Privacy and Security panel to disable the Prevent accessibility services. I am currently using nvda version 2017.3 into my Windows 10. I appreciate your response. Thanks.

Robert Mendoza

On 10/26/2017 3:39 PM, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io wrote:
That last point about the error of no page loaded has been with FF for over 1 year to my knowledge. I'm always hitting try again even on a fast machine, I think the problem is some internal code is too hasty at giving up trying to get the page. It also manifests itself on places like File Hippo update checker where the list of updates is completely missed off the page unless you refresh it.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Gene New Zealand" <hurrikennyandopo@outlook.co.nz>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2017 5:19 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Mandatory advisory: when Firefox 57 lands, do NOT check "prevent accessibility services" checkbox


Hi gene


I downloaded the 57 beta a little while ago and found the setting he was talking about. Mine was already unchecked. I downloaded the beta of 57 and i am just looking around now.


The menus are been spoken. The quick navigation keys seem to be working etc.


There is a little lag some times when you go to the menus and or left or right arrow. I was just having a look in the options section it looks like only 4 tabs now


I have read a couple of articles so far from our stuff website and gone back and forth between pages.


as mentioned there is a little lag at times seems no worser than 56 actually at a few times seemed quicker.


Now and again you have to refresh the page as like the page does not load and using the f5 key lets it load.


Gene nz


On 10/26/2017 4:43 PM, Gene wrote:
How do you disable it if you can't work with menus and all the other structures you discussed?  Can you use the command alt t then o to get into the options dialog and can it be worked with? Are you saying that we need to check this check box in the options dialog?

Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Joseph Lee<mailto:joseph.lee22590@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2017 10:34 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: [nvda] Mandatory advisory: when Firefox 57 lands, do NOT check "prevent accessibility services" checkbox

Hi all,
Well, the tests ended so fast…

The following is a community-based advisory that is mandatory for you all to listen up and follow:

If Firefox 57 is set to prevent accessibility services, you won’t be able to use Firefox at all. The following NVDA features will fail:


 *   Browse mode and focus mode
 *   Web browser features such as elements list and first letter navigation commands
 *   Object navigation and review modes
 *   OCR functionality

ADVISORY: when Firefox 57 lands, DO NOT check “prevent accessibility services” checkbox in Firefox options. By default, this checkbox is unchecked.

Technical: NVDA uses mixture of code injection and accessibility API routines to access Firefox. However, when accessibility services are turned off, Firefox enters a mode where the UI and browse mode functionality will not work with screen readers. This means no announcements regarding menu bar, no toolbar navigation feedback, no feedback when you type into address bar, no browse mode and so on. The only way to restore it so far is disabling the checkbox described above until NVDA finds a way to interact with Firefox Quantum.

Cheers,
Joseph


--
[Image NVDA          certified expert]
Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related material at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net Regardless of where you are in New Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you can use a copy of the NVDA screen reader on one of their computers. To find out which locations (or location) is near to you please visit http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries (Aotearoa People's Network Kaharoa). To find an NVDA certified expert near you, please visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified individuals from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA expert exam.



Re: Mandatory advisory: when Firefox 57 lands, do NOT check "prevent accessibility services" checkbox

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

Surely then this will still be the case for the sighted as well, so what is the point in changing it?
I do not want to lose Firefox, IE is rubbish as its not being updated.
As long as somebody keeps Firefox 55 up to date then I have a very good feeling that a lot of people out there will want to keep it.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jaffar Sidek" <jaffar.sidek10@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2017 5:48 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Mandatory advisory: when Firefox 57 lands, do NOT check "prevent accessibility services" checkbox


There will be a problem when browsing through very dense web pages with
lots of links and info. I just tried facebook.com, talksport.com,
bbcNews.com, these pages are so sluggish that it would be better to use
internet explorer instead. Cheers!



On 26/10/2017 12:19 PM, Gene New Zealand wrote:

Hi gene


I downloaded the 57 beta a little while ago and found the setting he
was talking about. Mine was already unchecked. I downloaded the beta
of 57 and i am just looking around now.


The menus are been spoken. The quick navigation keys seem to be
working etc.


There is a little lag some times when you go to the menus and or left
or right arrow. I was just having a look in the options section it
looks like only 4 tabs now


I have read a couple of articles so far from our stuff website and
gone back and forth between pages.


as mentioned there is a little lag at times seems no worser than 56
actually at a few times seemed quicker.


Now and again you have to refresh the page as like the page does not
load and using the f5 key lets it load.


Gene nz



On 10/26/2017 4:43 PM, Gene wrote:
How do you disable it if you can't work with menus and all the other
structures you discussed? Can you use the command alt t then o to
get into the options dialog and can it be worked with? Are you
saying that we need to check this check box in the options dialog?
Gene
----- Original Message -----
*From:* Joseph Lee <mailto:joseph.lee22590@gmail.com>
*Sent:* Wednesday, October 25, 2017 10:34 PM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*Subject:* [nvda] Mandatory advisory: when Firefox 57 lands, do NOT
check "prevent accessibility services" checkbox

Hi all,

Well, the tests ended so fast…

The following is a community-based advisory that is mandatory for you
all to listen up and follow:

If Firefox 57 is set to prevent accessibility services, you won’t be
able to use Firefox at all. The following NVDA features will fail:

* Browse mode and focus mode
* Web browser features such as elements list and first letter
navigation commands
* Object navigation and review modes
* OCR functionality

ADVISORY: when Firefox 57 lands, DO NOT check “prevent accessibility
services” checkbox in Firefox options. By default, this checkbox is
unchecked.

Technical: NVDA uses mixture of code injection and accessibility API
routines to access Firefox. However, when accessibility services are
turned off, Firefox enters a mode where the UI and browse mode
functionality will not work with screen readers. This means no
announcements regarding menu bar, no toolbar navigation feedback, no
feedback when you type into address bar, no browse mode and so on.
The only way to restore it so far is disabling the checkbox described
above until NVDA finds a way to interact with Firefox Quantum.

Cheers,

Joseph
--
Image NVDA certified expert
Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related
material at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net Regardless of where
you are in New Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you can
use a copy of the NVDA screen reader on one of their computers. To
find out which locations (or location) is near to you please visit
http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries
(Aotearoa People's Network Kaharoa). To find an NVDA certified expert
near you, please visit the following link
https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The certification page contains
the official list of NVDA certified individuals from around the world,
who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA expert exam.