Date   

Re: The mouse tracking function

Adriani Botez
 

Hello,

 

regarding the issue where the mouse is set on paragraphs but NVDA read only a line, we have some users in Germany who reported this issue as well. NVDA reads a smaller part of a line, the higher the zoom factor is. But I think this is related to the browser and the way how the browser change formatting when increasing the zoom factor. I don’t think it is related to NVDA.

 

The second thing about delay when pressing a key command could be related to sound card settings. In some cases, when the battery is not charging, sound cards change to standby. This is the case after 3 or 4 seconds of silence. The sound is being activated again when pressing any key because the screen reader sends a signal to the sound card.

 

I think however that it is related to power settings. Tel him he should start an audio file and turn the volume to zero in the audio program (i.e. Winamp). Is the delay still occurring?

 

 

 

Best

Adriani

 

 

 

Von: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] Im Auftrag von Florian Iona?cu
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 24. Januar 2018 16:45
An: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Betreff: Re: [nvda] The mouse tracking function

 

Hello, I've received some info from the user:
This happen in web browser, especially in Google Chrome, in web apps such as Moodle or in certain Wordpress themes. Due to this problem, he can't upload files.
He uses Windows 10 Fall Creators Update 64-bit version, , NVDA 2017.4 and the latest version of Chrome.
The content is partially read. For example, if a link is on two rows in a table, NVDA reads the first row only when he moves the mouse to it, though he has set NVDA to read paragraphs.
Regarding the lag, this happens mainly when the laptop's battery isn't charging. For example, if I press a key command, it is read with a delay. This applies to any synthesizer he uses.

 

La 24.01.2018 14:10, Quentin Christensen a scris:

Hi Florian,

 

If you could get extra info that would be fantastic please.  What would really help is:

- Does this happen in a particular program (which one?) or is it constant regardless of what is running?

- What Windows version, NVDA version and version of affected program (if relevant) is he using?

- Lags / slow, I can understand.  Can he give more clarification on "the tracking function is buggy"?  If it's just that it's slow, but it's reading all the right things, that's good to know, but if it's reading the wrong things or not reading information it should, that would be really helpful, particularly with example websites / programs / steps to reproduce.

- Anything else that can help us reproduce exactly what he is experiencing.

 

If it is really slow, a log file may help.

 

Kind regards

 

Quentin.

 

On Wed, Jan 24, 2018 at 10:16 PM, Florian Ionașcu <florianionascu@...> wrote:

Hello. A member of the NVDA Romanian Community says that the mouse
tracking function is buggy, that it lags and he can't do his work at his
university. He is even willing to donate to help you speed up / solve
this bug. Please tell me any other info I should ask him. I don't use
the mouse so I can't give you more info.
Cheers,
Florian





 

--

Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

 

Official NVDA Training modules and expert certification now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

 

Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 

 


Re: Nuance Sounds Error (My Resested PC)

Shasa
 

Happy Days,
friends solved the problem. Some versions of VC ++ have been installed. Some of them were not in my computer.
I downloaded and installed all versions of VC ++ from Blindhelp.net. Problem solved.

Note: friends who are experiencing the same problem, install their computers according to the bit (64/86). Set up the files for both bits.

https://s01.solidfilesusercontent.com/ytywnmfjywqwyja3nze2nmu3zgu1zjg5zgmynjk1ntnkmzriy2m3mzoxzwvpbvc6rghmwgnxwuhyagxizgvnzkvey3czqlb5dgxn/m3rn2qpmywnkx/blindhelp.net-vc%2b%2bredist.zip

I guess it's not right to share other files. I do not have much knowledge other than software. I mean by law.


23/01/2018 21:34  Shasa writed:

A yes you will forgive. What I mean is to install Windows from scratch.
So there is no backup. I did a zero installation on the machine. The system settings and programs were deleted.
I think I have installed the components NVDA needs.

If there are friends who can understand from the logs, can they tell the directions I need to follow?
23/01/2018 17:19 tarihinde Gene yazdı:
When you say reset, what does that mean?  Did you do a system restore, or use the feature that places a clean copy of Windows on the machine and you told the feature to keep all your programs?  Or are you using the word reset to mean something else?
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Shasa
Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2018 7:58 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Nuance Sounds Error (My Resested PC)

I use the voices of Tiflotecnia.

There was no problem before the computer reset.
23/01/2018 15:13 tarihinde Rui Fontes yazdı:
> Hello!
>
> Which Vocalizer Expressive you use?
> From Code Factory or from Tiflotecnia?
>
> Regards,
>
> Rui Fontes
> Tiflotecnia, Lda.
>
>
> Às 09:39 de 23/01/2018, Shasa escreveu:
>> Hello Friends,
>> I have not been able to use Nuance's voices since I reset my
>> computer. I'm pasting NVDA's logs below.
>> All versions of Microsoft C ++ until 2015 are installed on my
>> computer. NetFramework is also installed.
>> The log indicates that a DLL is not found.
>>
>> My system information;
>> Windows 10 version: 1709,
>> OS Build: 16299.192.
>>
>> Error in log:
>> ERROR - globalPluginHandler.initialize (23:50:18.966):
>> Error initializing global plugin <class
>> 'globalPlugins.vocalizer_expressive_globalPlugin.GlobalPlugin'>
>> Traceback (most recent call last):
>>    File "globalPluginHandler.pyo", line 32, in initialize
>>    File
>> "C:\Users\emre\AppData\Roaming\nvda\addons\vocalizer_expressive_driver\globalPlugins\vocalizer_expressive_globalPlugin\__init__.py",
>> line 192, in __init__
>>    File
>> "C:\Users\emre\AppData\Roaming\nvda\addons\vocalizer_expressive_driver\globalPlugins\vocalizer_expressive_globalPlugin\utils.py",
>> line 19, in __enter__
>>    File
>> "C:\Users\emre\AppData\Roaming\nvda\addons\vocalizer_expressive_driver\synthDrivers\vocalizer_expressive2\_vocalizer.py",
>> line 171, in initialize
>>    File
>> "C:\Users\emre\AppData\Roaming\nvda\addons\vocalizer_expressive_driver\synthDrivers\vocalizer_expressive2\_vocalizer.py",
>> line 131, in preInitialize
>>    File
>> "C:\Users\emre\AppData\Roaming\nvda\addons\vocalizer_expressive_driver\synthDrivers\vocalizer_expressive2\_veTypes.py",
>> line 298, in loadVeDll
>>    File "ctypes\__init__.pyo", line 444, in LoadLibrary
>>    File "ctypes\__init__.pyo", line 366, in __init__
>>    File "pythonMonkeyPatches.pyo", line 25, in _dlopen
>> WindowsError: [Error 126] The specified module could not be found
>>
>>
>> ERROR - synthDriverHandler.getSynthList (12:26:38.926):
>> Traceback (most recent call last):
>>    File "synthDriverHandler.pyo", line 54, in getSynthList
>>    File
>> "C:\Users\emre\AppData\Roaming\nvda\addons\vocalizer_expressive_driver\synthDrivers\vocalizer_expressive2\__init__.py",
>> line 60, in check
>>    File
>> "C:\Users\emre\AppData\Roaming\nvda\addons\vocalizer_expressive_driver\synthDrivers\vocalizer_expressive2\_vocalizer.py",
>> line 252, in postTerminate
>> AttributeError: 'NoneType' object has no attribute
>> 'vplatform_ReleaseInterfaces'
>> INFO - synthDriverHandler.setSynth (12:26:39.608):
>> Loaded synthDriver eloquence
>> ERROR - synthDriverHandler.getSynthList (12:27:03.750):
>> Traceback (most recent call last):
>>    File "synthDriverHandler.pyo", line 54, in getSynthList
>>    File
>> "C:\Users\emre\AppData\Roaming\nvda\addons\vocalizer_expressive_driver\synthDrivers\vocalizer_expressive2\__init__.py",
>> line 60, in check
>>    File
>> "C:\Users\emre\AppData\Roaming\nvda\addons\vocalizer_expressive_driver\synthDrivers\vocalizer_expressive2\_vocalizer.py",
>> line 252, in postTerminate
>> AttributeError: 'NoneType' object has no attribute
>> 'vplatform_ReleaseInterfaces'.
>>
>> Your help will make me happy. Happy Days.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>






Re: Blog post on Firefox 58.

Gene
 

People are an important part of the problem.  But the security environment is less in the control of people than it used to be.  Just yesterday, I saw an article discussing how much more common it is for reputable web sites to have hacked advertising on them and how difficult it is to detect hacked advertising for the users and the advertising companies that provide adds.  Saying the user is the problem for security is not accurate.  If people were the problem, then if someone really knew what they were doing, they could avoid all infections without using any antimalware programs.  That isn't true.  Maybe this so-called paranoia you object to so strenuously is in recognition of the possibility that malware will become increasingly sophisticated over time.  I don't know that but I wouldn't be at all surprised.  With so much money to be made, why shouldn't it? 
 
Maybe what you are objecting to is actually a reason to use Firefox.
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2018 10:00 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Blog post on Firefox 58.

They are being over paranoid. and why should it not have its own sounds,
cannot be that hard to achieve and you could turn them on and off. I can see
I'll be looking for a better browser if they continue down this over the top
security path. people are the problem for security, and unless Mozilla are
intending to replace people as well they are on a fools errand!
 Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Shaun Everiss" <sm.everiss@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2018 9:37 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Blog post on Firefox 58.


> Well navigational sounds will never become part of firefox, I asked the
> short answer is that due to the new web extentions framework, while a lot
> of improvements are made, there are a lot of things that have been killed
> for security reasons.
>
> One of these is registry access which the addon uses.
>
> It uses windows sounds.
>
> So for that to even work it would have to have its own sounds and have
> those as part of the addon and each event would need adding manually.
>
> It would be good if firefox had things like a download completed sound, or
> other sounds or simply had a way to access windows sound registry info or
> things, ofcause there is security issues accessing registry info I guess
> but if that was part of the permitions I don't see a problem.
>
> One thing I was and am still sore about is the fact the new addons ie
> noscript due to what firefox did can not have the menu bar they had and
> options all of them are buttons which seem to be out of my reach.
>
>
>
>
> On 24/01/2018 6:43 a.m., J.G wrote:
>> Hello,
>>
>> I posted a comment on this blog about sounds in future Firefox (see it)
>> and MR Zehe replied me, that he has not known Navigational sounds addon
>> until now and there is currently no plan to embed sounds into Firefox. So
>> if we want this feature, we must contact developers and politely request
>> this feature.
>>
>> regards, Jožef
>>
>
>
>
>




Re: A few thoughts: Web Aim survey, quantity versus quality, feeling burnt out and tutorials

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

Yeah well I'm surveyed and consultation out. it seems these days there are such consultations done all over the place about everything from babies nappies to screenreaders and I've yet to see any of them bear any fruit in the way things are done because I feel that everything these days is driven by vested interests and cost.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mário Navarro" <mario.gnv@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2018 3:50 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] A few thoughts: Web Aim survey, quantity versus quality, feeling burnt out and tutorials



absolutely right.

thank you good friend.


long life to Joseph Lee.

cheers.



Às 17:25 de 23/12/2017, Joseph Lee escreveu:

Dear NVDA community,

As I read messages on recent discussions, I realized just how much
enthusiasm and concern people have over NVDA and its future. At the
same time, it became clear to me that I and other developers and
community elders need a day off and just listen to you all, as
listening allows us to think about what others are saying and plan
things accordingly.

But first, a humble opinion about surveys and other points:

First, when calls for the seventh Web AIM survey went out, I told
people to not just do it to “increase” market share. I specifically
told screen reader companies to not coerce users to do it, but let
people take it out of their own willingness. This advice was to avoid
a fiasco that happened with Web AIM 6 where AI Squared (now part of
VFO) staff told Window-Eyes users to fill out the survey in mass
numbers, which became a small controversy within the screen reading
world, and to me, making Web AIM results no longer credible.

As some folks pointed out, Web AIM numbers depend on how many people
fill it out and where they come from (and this is true of any surveys
where word of mouth drives participation). The results also depend on
demographics and other factors such as choices given, how the
questions are worded, and overall objective. If one or more data
points seems to be dominant, they can be either skewed or outliers,
with the more extreme cases being termed “outliers” and they affect
how the results are explicated (interpreted). Even skewed data, such
as what I can perceive from some surveys including recent Web AIM
iterations can affect statistical calculations to a point where it
raises genuine questions about bias, credibility, and others (after
all, success of statistics, particularly inferential statistics,
depends on a representative sample or a close equivalent that allows
researchers to approximate the real world, which is prone to errors if
not done correctly such as misinterpretation, bad outliers, only some
groups participating, not looking at things more deeply and what not).

One important thing to note is that Web AIM is a representative
survey, thus the result in front of me could reflect reality. However,
due to recent controversy, possible type I and II errors
(false-positive and false-negative, respectively) and because of
outliers and skewed data and participation, it does not truly reflect
actual data, which is a point some folks here are trying to say and I
concur with. My explication of Web AIM 7 is that, in some parts of the
world, JAWS for Windows is more popular. However, given the fact that
not all geographical regions are represented, I’d counter by saying
that this is not a true representative sample that includes every
continent, and if it did, the story would be different and will
reflect reality a bit better (not a lot because there are other ways
of skewing data such as filling it out on behalf of an organization,
robotic fillers and so on). Coupled with the fact that Web AIM went
through a major controversy recently that damaged its credibility
somewhat, I would dare not trust Web AIM results again.

This leads to my second point: quantity versus quality. If NV Access
went straight for quantity alone, they could have implemented all
possible feature requests in hopes of boosting market share. The
reality in front of us says otherwise: not all feature requests are
here. Numerous factors contribute to this problem:

* Lack of leading developers: in 2017, a long-time NVDA developer
started working for another organization, and NV Access has been
looking for his replacement ever since. Even if the replacement is
found, it’ll take several months for him or her to become used to
this community, learn about accessibility and how to interact with
members, and earn our trust (it took Reef Turner a year to fully
earn our trust). Folks can counter this by saying that there are
countless contributors out there, but ultimately what gets into
NVDA depends on pull requests and review time from NV Access.
* Attitudes about open-source software from organizations: as some
folks pointed out, there are prevailing attitudes about
open-source in organizations that makes it a bit harder for NVDA
to land on their computers, which allows developers to assess true
needs of organizations through user feedback. Without valuable
feedback from organizations (a quality one at that), we won’t see
huger progress in NVDA development.
* Outside attitudes about the NVDA community: from the inside, NVDA
community is seen as a tight nit of enthusiasts who strives to
make NVDA better every day. On the outside, however, we have a
mixed bag of reputations, from admiration to honorable mentions to
disdain. Every organization have these mixed reputations,
especially more so for a community powered by technology such as
Linux kernel developers, web browser vendors and web standards
organizations, and even screen reader community. Not only we need
to show that we are united inside, we need to showcase unity
outside of this community.
* Inside matters just as outside: public relations outside of NVDA
community is important, but unity within an organization is just
as important as public organizational face (I’ll address
developer’s point of view below). What makes NVDA stand out is our
unity despite coming from different circumstances and backgrounds.

Most of these point to quality, not quantity alone. In summary,
quantity is important, but quality is just as important as how many
people download NVDA 2017.4 between Christmas and New Year.

Lastly, in regards to organization internals, I’d like to address
something I really wanted to say for the past few weeks: sometimes, I
felt burnt out. My initial response to your enthusiasm over my audio
tutorials was that I’ll ask for justifications for producing an
updated version, seeing that there are countless free videos and
tutorials out there. This was partly because I truly felt burnt out
with academics, speech and debate competitions and what not
(especially after a debate regarding a potential feature held not long
ago), at one point telling myself that I’ll retire from the NVDA
community sooner than later and feeling as though I carried important
burdens on my shoulders. But you didn’t see that justification post;
instead, I posted links to where you can download the 2018 version of
my audio tutorial series. In effect, I’ve given up my Christmas
holidays for this community, knowing that I needed a time to listen to
you all and do something about it. All this was possible because of a
simple act of listening and thinking about what the community means to
me and what my work means to everyone. I’m committed to finishing
Welcome to NVDA 2018 series before NVDA 2018.1 ships, with several
addenda coming after that, all because of support from this community
and outsiders. And I promise again: The Welcome to NVDA 2018 series
was, and will remain, free for all. All I ask of you in return is
donate to a cause that makes equal access to technology possible,
especially during this holiday season and beyond.

I’m sure for many of you, my musings above are a bit hard to digest.
Now you know why I don’t trust Web AIM survey results, quality is just
as important as quantity, and read a confession from a community
leader on his inner feelings. But there are two more things you need
to know, something all of us needs to think about:

Community leaders won’t stay with you forever. In early 2017, I sensed
that a long-time NVDA developer would leave this community for
something better. Only I and others didn’t know until summer that it
would be Jamie moving onto Mozilla Foundation.

I also felt, back in early 2017, that my active time with the NVDA
community is slowly drawing to a close. I don’t know when it’ll
happen, but I’ve been laying foundations for the next generation of
developers and enthusiasts to take the lead. This is one of the
reasons for setting up the devlearning subgroup, because I felt it is
time for me and other leaders to teach NVDA internals and other
concepts to the next group of community leaders and developers so they
can bring NVDA to the next level and do more amazing things than I and
others did (in my case, for the past five years).

Lastly, I sense a time when this community will face a sharp divide to
a point where people will start questioning the merits of this
community. I only told a select few earlier because it wasn’t right
for me to disclose it early and for them to prepare a plan. The screen
shade debate is, in fact, a sort of a preview of what is to come. One
of the fundamental questions you will face at that time will be
whether you still have your first love for NVDA, and whether you still
have your original reasons for joining this community. The survival of
this community at that time will depend on your ability to unite to
face a difficult situation, even if that means facing possible splits.
One thing you should NOT do at that time: ignoring new users and
outside critics, because they are influential opinion leaders and are
key stakeholders in NVDA’s future. One thing you SHOULD do though:
listen to others and think critically.

Hope this makes sense.

Merry (early) Christmas,

Joseph

--
A acção pode nem sempre ser felicidade, mas não há felicidade sem acção...


Re: Blog post on Firefox 58.

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

Well no response to my email which I thought to be polite.
brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.

----- Original Message -----
From: "J.G" <jozko.gregorc@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2018 2:43 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Blog post on Firefox 58.


Sarah and others,

thank you for your very constructive and polite comments.

Please read my comment first on Marco's blog and his reply and then write a comments. I did not mension begin/end navigation sound although these sounds would be also helpful, but I wrote about sounds which indicate, that download is completed, that RSS was detected, that popup has been blocked etc.

So please, please be more constructive and polite.

Here is a link to the my comment on Marco's blog.

https://www.marcozehe.de/2018/01/16/nvda-firefox-58-team-regaining-strength/#comment-4012

Next comment is Marco's reply.

Thanks.

Kind regards, Jožef


Re: Blog post on Firefox 58.

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

They are being over paranoid. and why should it not have its own sounds, cannot be that hard to achieve and you could turn them on and off. I can see I'll be looking for a better browser if they continue down this over the top security path. people are the problem for security, and unless Mozilla are intending to replace people as well they are on a fools errand!
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Shaun Everiss" <sm.everiss@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2018 9:37 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Blog post on Firefox 58.


Well navigational sounds will never become part of firefox, I asked the short answer is that due to the new web extentions framework, while a lot of improvements are made, there are a lot of things that have been killed for security reasons.

One of these is registry access which the addon uses.

It uses windows sounds.

So for that to even work it would have to have its own sounds and have those as part of the addon and each event would need adding manually.

It would be good if firefox had things like a download completed sound, or other sounds or simply had a way to access windows sound registry info or things, ofcause there is security issues accessing registry info I guess but if that was part of the permitions I don't see a problem.

One thing I was and am still sore about is the fact the new addons ie noscript due to what firefox did can not have the menu bar they had and options all of them are buttons which seem to be out of my reach.




On 24/01/2018 6:43 a.m., J.G wrote:
Hello,

I posted a comment on this blog about sounds in future Firefox (see it) and MR Zehe replied me, that he has not known Navigational sounds addon until now and there is currently no plan to embed sounds into Firefox. So if we want this feature, we must contact developers and politely request this feature.

regards, Jožef


Re: A few thoughts: Web Aim survey, quantity versus quality, feeling burnt out and tutorials

Mário Navarro
 


absolutely right.

thank you good friend.


long life to Joseph Lee.

cheers.



Às 17:25 de 23/12/2017, Joseph Lee escreveu:

Dear NVDA community,

 

As I read messages on recent discussions, I realized just how much enthusiasm and concern people have over NVDA and its future. At the same time, it became clear to me that I and other developers and community elders need a day off and just listen to you all, as listening allows us to think about what others are saying and plan things accordingly.

 

But first, a humble opinion about surveys and other points:

 

First, when calls for the seventh Web AIM survey went out, I told people to not just do it to “increase” market share. I specifically told screen reader companies to not coerce users to do it, but let people take it out of their own willingness. This advice was to avoid a fiasco that happened with Web AIM 6 where AI Squared (now part of VFO) staff told Window-Eyes users to fill out the survey in mass numbers, which became a small controversy within the screen reading world, and to me, making Web AIM results no longer credible.

 

As some folks pointed out, Web AIM numbers depend on how many people fill it out and where they come from (and this is true of any surveys where word of mouth drives participation). The results also depend on demographics and other factors such as choices given, how the questions are worded, and overall objective. If one or more data points seems to be dominant, they can be either skewed or outliers, with the more extreme cases being termed “outliers” and they affect how the results are explicated (interpreted). Even skewed data, such as what I can perceive from some surveys including recent Web AIM iterations can affect statistical calculations to a point where it raises genuine questions about bias, credibility, and others (after all, success of statistics, particularly inferential statistics, depends on a representative sample or a close equivalent that allows researchers to approximate the real world, which is prone to errors if not done correctly such as misinterpretation, bad outliers, only some groups participating, not looking at things more deeply and what not).

 

One important thing to note is that Web AIM is a representative survey, thus the result in front of me could reflect reality. However, due to recent controversy, possible type I and II errors (false-positive and false-negative, respectively) and because of outliers and skewed data and participation, it does not truly reflect actual data, which is a point some folks here are trying to say and I concur with. My explication of Web AIM 7 is that, in some parts of the world, JAWS for Windows is more popular. However, given the fact that not all geographical regions are represented, I’d counter by saying that this is not a true representative sample that includes every continent, and if it did, the story would be different and will reflect reality a bit better (not a lot because there are other ways of skewing data such as filling it out on behalf of an organization, robotic fillers and so on). Coupled with the fact that Web AIM went through a major controversy recently that damaged its credibility somewhat, I would dare not trust Web AIM results again.

 

This leads to my second point: quantity versus quality. If NV Access went straight for quantity alone, they could have implemented all possible feature requests in hopes of boosting market share. The reality in front of us says otherwise: not all feature requests are here. Numerous factors contribute to this problem:

 

  • Lack of leading developers: in 2017, a long-time NVDA developer started working for another organization, and NV Access has been looking for his replacement ever since. Even if the replacement is found, it’ll take several months for him or her to become used to this community, learn about accessibility and how to interact with members, and earn our trust (it took Reef Turner a year to fully earn our trust). Folks can counter this by saying that there are countless contributors out there, but ultimately what gets into NVDA depends on pull requests and review time from NV Access.
  • Attitudes about open-source software from organizations: as some folks pointed out, there are prevailing attitudes about open-source in organizations that makes it a bit harder for NVDA to land on their computers, which allows developers to assess true needs of organizations through user feedback. Without valuable feedback from organizations (a quality one at that), we won’t see huger progress in NVDA development.
  • Outside attitudes about the NVDA community: from the inside, NVDA community is seen as a tight nit of enthusiasts who strives to make NVDA better every day. On the outside, however, we have a mixed bag of reputations, from admiration to honorable mentions to disdain. Every organization have these mixed reputations, especially more so for a community powered by technology such as Linux kernel developers, web browser vendors and web standards organizations, and even screen reader community. Not only we need to show that we are united inside, we need to showcase unity outside of this community.
  • Inside matters just as outside: public relations outside of NVDA community is important, but unity within an organization is just as important as public organizational face (I’ll address developer’s point of view below). What makes NVDA stand out is our unity despite coming from different circumstances and backgrounds.

 

Most of these point to quality, not quantity alone. In summary, quantity is important, but quality is just as important as how many people download NVDA 2017.4 between Christmas and New Year.

 

Lastly, in regards to organization internals, I’d like to address something I really wanted to say for the past few weeks: sometimes, I felt burnt out. My initial response to your enthusiasm over my audio tutorials was that I’ll ask for justifications for producing an updated version, seeing that there are countless free videos and tutorials out there. This was partly because I truly felt burnt out with academics, speech and debate competitions and what not (especially after a debate regarding a potential feature held not long ago), at one point telling myself that I’ll retire from the NVDA community sooner than later and feeling as though I carried important burdens on my shoulders. But you didn’t see that justification post; instead, I posted links to where you can download the 2018 version of my audio tutorial series. In effect, I’ve given up my Christmas holidays for this community, knowing that I needed a time to listen to you all and do something about it. All this was possible because of a simple act of listening and thinking about what the community means to me and what my work means to everyone. I’m committed to finishing Welcome to NVDA 2018 series before NVDA 2018.1 ships, with several addenda coming after that, all because of support from this community and outsiders. And I promise again: The Welcome to NVDA 2018 series was, and will remain, free for all. All I ask of you in return is donate to a cause that makes equal access to technology possible, especially during this holiday season and beyond.

 

I’m sure for many of you, my musings above are a bit hard to digest. Now you know why I don’t trust Web AIM survey results, quality is just as important as quantity, and read a confession from a community leader on his inner feelings. But there are two more things you need to know, something all of us needs to think about:

 

Community leaders won’t stay with you forever. In early 2017, I sensed that a long-time NVDA developer would leave this community for something better. Only I and others didn’t know until summer that it would be Jamie moving onto Mozilla Foundation.

 

I also felt, back in early 2017, that my active time with the NVDA community is slowly drawing to a close. I don’t know when it’ll happen, but I’ve been laying foundations for the next generation of developers and enthusiasts to take the lead. This is one of the reasons for setting up the devlearning subgroup, because I felt it is time for me and other leaders to teach NVDA internals and other concepts to the next group of community leaders and developers so they can bring NVDA to the next level and do more amazing things than I and others did (in my case, for the past five years).

 

Lastly, I sense a time when this community will face a sharp divide to a point where people will start questioning the merits of this community. I only told a select few earlier because it wasn’t right for me to disclose it early and for them to prepare a plan. The screen shade debate is, in fact, a sort of a preview of what is to come. One of the fundamental questions you will face at that time will be whether you still have your first love for NVDA, and whether you still have your original reasons for joining this community. The survival of this community at that time will depend on your ability to unite to face a difficult situation, even if that means facing possible splits. One thing you should NOT do at that time: ignoring new users and outside critics, because they are influential opinion leaders and are key stakeholders in NVDA’s future. One thing you SHOULD do though: listen to others and think critically.

 

Hope this makes sense.

Merry (early) Christmas,

Joseph


-- 
A acção pode nem sempre ser felicidade, mas não há felicidade sem acção...


Re: The mouse tracking function

 

Hello, I've received some info from the user:
This happen in web browser, especially in Google Chrome, in web apps such as Moodle or in certain Wordpress themes. Due to this problem, he can't upload files.
He uses Windows 10 Fall Creators Update 64-bit version, , NVDA 2017.4 and the latest version of Chrome.
The content is partially read. For example, if a link is on two rows in a table, NVDA reads the first row only when he moves the mouse to it, though he has set NVDA to read paragraphs.
Regarding the lag, this happens mainly when the laptop's battery isn't charging. For example, if I press a key command, it is read with a delay. This applies to any synthesizer he uses.


La 24.01.2018 14:10, Quentin Christensen a scris:

Hi Florian,

If you could get extra info that would be fantastic please.  What would really help is:
- Does this happen in a particular program (which one?) or is it constant regardless of what is running?
- What Windows version, NVDA version and version of affected program (if relevant) is he using?
- Lags / slow, I can understand.  Can he give more clarification on "the tracking function is buggy"?  If it's just that it's slow, but it's reading all the right things, that's good to know, but if it's reading the wrong things or not reading information it should, that would be really helpful, particularly with example websites / programs / steps to reproduce.
- Anything else that can help us reproduce exactly what he is experiencing.

If it is really slow, a log file may help.

Kind regards

Quentin.

On Wed, Jan 24, 2018 at 10:16 PM, Florian Ionașcu <florianionascu@...> wrote:
Hello. A member of the NVDA Romanian Community says that the mouse
tracking function is buggy, that it lags and he can't do his work at his
university. He is even willing to donate to help you speed up / solve
this bug. Please tell me any other info I should ask him. I don't use
the mouse so I can't give you more info.
Cheers,
Florian







--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

Official NVDA Training modules and expert certification now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 



Re: Real Speak Tom and Windows 10

Clare Page <clare.page@...>
 

Hi!
Yes, RealSpeak became Vocalizer some years ago, but many of the voices still exist after the change of name, including Tom.
If the voice being used is still called RealSpeak, perhaps it is too old for Windows 10. But if you're actually using Vocalizer, the add-ons for that can be stored anywhere on your computer, they don't have to go to a special place to be used.
I hope this helps!
Bye for now!
From Clare

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of John Isige
Sent: mardi 23 janvier 2018 23:51
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Real Speak Tom and Windows 10

Isn't RealSpeak super old? I'm pretty sure it's the same voice as Vocalizer Tom.


On 1/23/2018 14:30, Lisa P Geibel wrote:
Hi,

My husband and I are both totally blind and just had a nightmare of
installing a fresh copy of Windows 10 so that we could get the latest
build. Before this we were happily using Real Speak Tom with the
latest build of NVDA as this is the best voice for me, with a slight
hearing impairment. We can't seem to get this voice installed where it
needs to go so that it can be used. I'd heard there were some voices
that could not be used anymore with the latest Windows build. Please
tell me this is not one of them and if it can still be used, please,
would someone help me in doing this? Please? Thanks. We're currently
using Microsoft Mark as it's better for me than David, but I still
have some trouble with it and would appreciate any help from anyone
that could.


On 1/19/2018 7:21 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:
Hi,
Fragmentation will happen as long as new information is written in
places that'll cause problems for fast reading later. Also, while
something is running, the operating system will still need to access
things on disk if asked by the program.
As for swapping configurations: in theory, yes as long as the
versions are compatible enough to not cause visible side effects. For
example, if one swaps configurations between stable and next
branches, that could raise problems in that some things required by
next snapshots might not be present.
As for the add-on being the culprit: could be. One thing to try
though: what if Roger runs his portable copy with all add-ons
disabled? If that improves performance, then it could be an add-on,
if not, we should try something else.
Implicating file systems: Roger did say this is an internal drive,
hence I put more weight on possible fragmentation and data movement
issues.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
Didier Colle
Sent: Friday, January 19, 2018 3:40 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Portable version degrading

Dear Joseph, roger, all,


@Joseph: not sure to understand what point you try to make. Is your
suggestion there is indeed a filesystem problem as the root cause?


trying to recapitulate a few things:

* "it can make it appear that the add on is defective or has a bug
while it really doesn't."

@Roger: for any further meaningful diagnosis, I believe a more
concrete symptom description is needed? (how does such "would be" bug
manifestate itself? Is it always the same "would be" bug or do many
"would be" bugs appear randomly? when do such "would be" bugs appear
(during loading, during execution of the add-on)?)

* "there's no file system errors"

I guess that means there are no issues with the
physical/electronic/magnetic integrity of the storage medium itself
(or that the filesystem has set them aside such that they are not
used anymore). In case corrupted/broken blocks on the storage medium
would be the root cause, something should be found in the logs as
loading the relevant python modules should throw an exception (if
these exceptions are not logged, it should be possible to do so).
Therefore, I dismiss storage medium/filesystem corruption as root
cause of the above mentioned "would be" bugs (assuming bugs have to
be interpreted as broken functionality).


* "I also notice a few functions of nvda either don't work at all or
nvda gets very sluggish in responsiveness"
@Roger: again, for any meaningfull diagnosis, provide a more concrete
symptiom description. What functions are you exactly speaking about?
What does "not work at all" exactly mean: do you mean sluggishness
with extremely long / infinite response times? Or do you get errors? or ...
Is the sluggishness general or does it happen in those specific
functions? What do you mean by sluggishness: response in only a second?
A few seconds? A minute or more? When does sluggishness happen: at
time of loading add-on/modules or continuously or ...?
* "... nor any fragmenting.". Statement from Joseph: "In case of
Roger's
issue: a possible contributing factor is constant add-on updates. He
uses an add-on that is updated on a regular basis, .. ...,
potentially fragmenting bits of files ..."
The two statements appear to me as contradictory. Fragmentation may
be a root cause of sluggishness, but only when access to storage
medium is needed and not during general execution which typically
takes place from RAM rather then from disc. Therefore, fragmentation
issues appear very unlikely to me.

* "while the installed version is always stable as a rock." and "I
use the portable copy to test a couple add ons"
@Roger: how much do you use one and the other? How much usage does it
take before the portable copy gets degraded?
The two statements suggest there is a problem with the portable copies.
However, there seems to be nobody else experiencing the same problem.
Thus, I would translate this into the following question that you
would need to test/investigage further: is there a conflict between
the portable copies and your specific system setup, or is the issue
caused by the add-ons under test?
To test the former possibility, why not using a fresh portable copy
replicating the setup of your installed version instead of that
installed version for a while?
To test the latter that would probably require moving the add-on
testing to the installed version: I guess you are using the portable
version for this purpose, exactly to avoid messing up the installed
version. Would you have the possibility to do the testing in for
example a virtual machine, such that you can test on an installed
instead of a portable copy version, while not messing up your main system with this testing?
Joseph, anyone else: is there a (possibly more cumbersome) way to
perform testing on an installed version while keeping at all times a
possibility to revert back to a stable/clean situation? (e.g., having
a .bat script that swaps configuration file and add-on directories
between stable and testing versions and that can easily be executed
in between exiting nvda and restarting it?) In case none of the above
options is tried, my suggestions would be then to regularly take
snapshot copies of your portable copy such that when degradation
takes place a diff between stable and degraded version can be taken
and investigated.

In summary, I believe:
1) a much more concrete/detailed/... symptom description is needed
before any meaningful statements regarding diagnosis is possible;
2) with the info I have, filesystem/storage medium
problems/corruptions are very unlikely.
3) further testing/investigation is needed in order to
support/dismiss certain hypotheses.

Kind regards,

Didier

On 19/01/2018 18:19, Joseph Lee wrote:
Hi,
It'll depend on what type of drive it is. If it's a traditional hard
drive, it'll degrade as data moves around, creating the need for
defragmentation.
This is especially the case when data is repeatedly written and the
file system is asked to find new locations to hold the constantly
changing data.
In case of solid-state drives, it'll degrade if the same region is
written repeatedly, as flash memory has limited endurance when it
comes to data reads and writes.
In case of Roger's issue: a possible contributing factor is constant
add-on updates. He uses an add-on that is updated on a regular
basis, putting strain on part of the drive where the add-on bits are
stored. Thus, some drive sectors are repeatedly bombarded with new
information, and one way operating systems will do in this case is
move the new data somewhere else on the drive, potentially
fragmenting bits of files (I'll explain in a moment). Thus one
solution is to not test all add-on updates, but that's a bit risky
as Roger is one of the key testers for this add-on I'm talking
about.
Regarding fragmentation and what not: the following is a bit geeky
but I believe you should know about how some parts of a file system
(an in extension, operating systems) works, because I believe it'll
help folks better understand what might be going on:
Storage devices encountered in the wild are typically organized into
many parts, typically into blocks of fixed-length units called
"sectors". A sector is smallest unit of information that the storage
device can present to the outside world, as in how much data can be
held on a storage device.
For example, when you store a small document on a hard disk drive
(HDD) and
when you wish to open it in Notepad, Windows will ask a module
that's in charge of organizing and interpreting data on a drive
(called a file
system)
to locate the sector where the document (or magnets or flash cells
that constitute the document data) is stored and bring it out to
you. To you, all you see is the path to the document, but the file
system will ask the drive controller (a small computer inside hard
disks and other storage
devices) to
fetch data in a particular sector or region. Depending on what kind
of storage medium you're dealing with, reading from disks may
involve waiting for a platter with desired sector to come to the
attention of a read/write head (a thin magnetic sensor used to
detect or make changes to magnetic
fields) or peering inside windows and extracting electrons trapped
within.
This last sentence is a vivid description of how hard disks and
solid-state drives really work behind the scenes, respectively.
But storage devices are not just meant for reading things for your
enjoyment. Without means of storing new things, it becomes useless.
Depending on the medium you've got, when you save something to a
storage device, the file system in charge of the device will ask the
drive controller to either find a spot on a disk filled with magnets
and change some magnets, or apply heat pressure to dislodge all
cells on a block, erase the block, add new things, and fill the
empty block with modified data (including old bits). You can imagine
how tedious this can get, but as far as your work is concerned, it
is safe and sound.
Now imagine you wish to read and write repeatedly on a storage
device. The file system will repeatedly ask the drive hardware to
fetch data from specific regions, and will look for new locations to
store changes.
On a
hard drive, because there are limited number of heads and it'll take
a while for desired magnetic region to come to attention of one,
read speed is slow, hence increased latency (latency refers to how
long you have to wait for something to happen). When it comes to
saving things to HDD's, all the drive needs to do is tell the
read/write head to change some magnets wherever it wishes, hence
data overriding is possible and easy. But operating systems (rather,
file systems) are smarter than that, as we'll see below.
In case of solid-state drives, reading data is simple as looking up
the address (or sector) where the electrons comprising the data you
want is saved (akin to walking down a street grid), so no need to
wait for a sensor to wait for something to happen. This is the
reason why solid-state drives appear to respond fast when reading
something. On the other hand, writing or injecting electrons is very
slow because the drive needs to erase the entire block before
writing new data. In other words, just changing a letter in a
document and saving it to an SSD involves a lot of work, hence SSD's
are slower when it comes to writing new things, but because of the
underlying technology in use, it is way faster than hard disks.
As hinted above, file systems are smarter than drive controllers to
some extent. If data is written to a drive, the drive controller
will process whatever it comes along its path. But file systems
won't let drive controllers get away with that: file systems such as
NTFS (New Technology File System) will schedule data writes so it'll
have minimal impact on the lifespan of a storage device. For hard
disks, it'll try its best to tell the drive to store file data in
consecutive locations in one big batch, but that doesn't always
work. For SSD's, the file system will ask the drive to storage new
information in different cells so all regions can be used equally
(at least for storing new information; this is called ware
leveling). One way to speed things up is asking the drive to
reorganize data so file fragments can be found in consecutive
sectors or trim deleted regions so fresh information can be written
to more blocks (for HDD's and SSD's, respectively), and this
operation itself is tedious and produce bad results if not done
correctly and carefully.

I do understand the above explanation is a bit geeky, but I believe
you need to know some things about how things work. It is also a
personal exercise to refresh my memory on certain computer science
topics (I majored in it not long ago, and my interests were mostly
hardware and operating systems, hence I was sort of naturally drawn
to screen reader internals and how it interacts with system
software).
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
Roger Stewart
Sent: Friday, January 19, 2018 7:58 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Portable version degrading

The problem with this discussion is my portable version is on an
internal hard drive. So why is this degrading?

Nothing else on this drive has any trouble and I've checked, and
there's no file system errors nor any fragmenting.


Roger












On 1/19/2018 8:28 AM, Antony Stone wrote:
USB drives do need to be unmounted before removing them, otherwise
there
is
the risk of file system corruption. Precisely the same is true for
external
hard drives, floppy disks, or any other writeable medium you can
temporarily
attach to a computer.

I've never seen a USB thumb drive fall apart, and I think they're
considerably
more robust than floppy disks, which is basically what they
replaced. You
can
also drop them on the floor with a good deal more confidence of
them
working
afterwards than if you drop an external hard disk.

Yes, they're vulnerable to static electricity; that's why most of
them
have
plastic caps to put over the contacts or a slider to retract the
contacts
into
the body.

My experience is that if they're treated reasonably they work very
well.
If
they're mistreated they'll give as many problems as any other
mistreated storage medium.


Antony.

On Friday 19 January 2018 at 15:17:36, tonea.ctr.morrow@faa.gov wrote:

A few years back, I had a job for three years where people brought
me
their
files on USB thumb drives. These things are horrible in terms of
long-life. The really do have to be unmounted prior to removing
from the computer or they get corrupted. They physically fall
apart easily.
And,
the hardware inside seems to be more vulnerable to static
electricity
data
loss than other portable drives, certainly more vulnerable than
most computers.



I would think that would be the problem.



Tonea



-----Original Message-----

I've noticed over the past couple years that my portable install
of nvda will sometimes degrade or get a bit corrupted over time
all by itself while the installed version is always stable as a
rock. Does anyone know why this is and is there any way to prevent
this from happening?
I use
the portable copy to test a couple add ons and if the portable
version corrupts, it can make it appear that the add on is
defective or has a bug while it really doesn't. Deleting the
portable copy and making a new one will clear it up. I also
notice a few functions of nvda either don't
work
at all or nvda gets very sluggish in responsiveness and this all
gets
back
to normal after a complete flush and remake of the portable
version. As
I
say, this never has happened at all with my installed copy on the
same computer.





Roger











Re: The mouse tracking function

Adriani Botez
 

Dear Florian,

maybe the Cursor Speed is set on a low value in Windows Settings. When he moves the mouse, is the movement of the Cursor slow? Or is the mouse Cursor fast but  the speech is slow?

Best
Adriani


Re: The mouse tracking function

Quentin Christensen
 

Hi Florian,

If you could get extra info that would be fantastic please.  What would really help is:
- Does this happen in a particular program (which one?) or is it constant regardless of what is running?
- What Windows version, NVDA version and version of affected program (if relevant) is he using?
- Lags / slow, I can understand.  Can he give more clarification on "the tracking function is buggy"?  If it's just that it's slow, but it's reading all the right things, that's good to know, but if it's reading the wrong things or not reading information it should, that would be really helpful, particularly with example websites / programs / steps to reproduce.
- Anything else that can help us reproduce exactly what he is experiencing.

If it is really slow, a log file may help.

Kind regards

Quentin.

On Wed, Jan 24, 2018 at 10:16 PM, Florian Ionașcu <florianionascu@...> wrote:
Hello. A member of the NVDA Romanian Community says that the mouse
tracking function is buggy, that it lags and he can't do his work at his
university. He is even willing to donate to help you speed up / solve
this bug. Please tell me any other info I should ask him. I don't use
the mouse so I can't give you more info.
Cheers,
Florian







--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

Official NVDA Training modules and expert certification now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 


The mouse tracking function

 

Hello. A member of the NVDA Romanian Community says that the mouse
tracking function is buggy, that it lags and he can't do his work at his
university. He is even willing to donate to help you speed up / solve
this bug. Please tell me any other info I should ask him. I don't use
the mouse so I can't give you more info.
Cheers,
Florian


Re: sea monkey?

Rosemarie Chavarria
 

I tried seamonkey but couldn't get the email part to work.

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2018 4:40 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] sea monkey?

It used to but the email bit could be a little quirky as I recall. Not sure if its using the quantum yet for firefox mode though you could try waterfox I guess.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "The Wolf" <hank.smith966@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Monday, January 22, 2018 11:29 PM
Subject: [nvda] sea monkey?


Hello does any one know if nvda works with sea monkey?

sorry for the typo

Hank





Re: Blog post on Firefox 58.

J.G
 

Sarah and others,

thank you for your very constructive and polite comments.

Please read my comment first on Marco's blog and his reply and then write a comments. I did not mension begin/end navigation sound although these sounds would be also helpful, but I wrote about sounds which indicate, that download is completed, that RSS was detected, that popup has been blocked etc.

So please, please be more constructive and polite.

Here is a link to the my comment on Marco's blog.

https://www.marcozehe.de/2018/01/16/nvda-firefox-58-team-regaining-strength/#comment-4012

Next comment is Marco's reply.

Thanks.

Kind regards, Jožef


Strange crash

 

Hi All,


So, this has been going on for a while, but especially happens when using BGT games. Somehow, NVDA goes wacky. I can't invoke any NVDA keystrokes, and the speech does not interrupt properly. Link to log is below.


https://www.dropbox.com/s/v8eu37gwni2s9zw/nvdacrash.log?dl=1


Re: Real Speak Tom and Windows 10

John Isige
 

Isn't RealSpeak super old? I'm pretty sure it's the same voice as
Vocalizer Tom.

On 1/23/2018 14:30, Lisa P Geibel wrote:
Hi,

My husband and I are both totally blind and just had a nightmare of
installing a fresh copy of Windows 10 so that we could get the latest
build. Before this we were happily using Real Speak Tom with the
latest build of NVDA as this is the best voice for me, with a slight
hearing impairment. We can't seem to get this voice installed where it
needs to go so that it can be used. I'd heard there were some voices
that could not be used anymore with the latest Windows build. Please
tell me this is not one of them and if it can still be used, please,
would someone help me in doing this? Please? Thanks. We're currently
using Microsoft Mark as it's better for me than David, but I still
have some trouble with it and would appreciate any help from anyone
that could.


On 1/19/2018 7:21 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:
Hi,
Fragmentation will happen as long as new information is written in
places that'll cause problems for fast reading later. Also, while
something is running, the operating system will still need to access
things on disk if asked by the program.
As for swapping configurations: in theory, yes as long as the
versions are compatible enough to not cause visible side effects. For
example, if one swaps configurations between stable and next
branches, that could raise problems in that some things required by
next snapshots might not be present.
As for the add-on being the culprit: could be. One thing to try
though: what if Roger runs his portable copy with all add-ons
disabled? If that improves performance, then it could be an add-on,
if not, we should try something else.
Implicating file systems: Roger did say this is an internal drive,
hence I put more weight on possible fragmentation and data movement
issues.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
Didier Colle
Sent: Friday, January 19, 2018 3:40 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Portable version degrading

Dear Joseph, roger, all,


@Joseph: not sure to understand what point you try to make. Is your
suggestion there is indeed a filesystem problem as the root cause?


trying to recapitulate a few things:

* "it can make it appear that the add on is defective or has a bug while
it really doesn't."

@Roger: for any further meaningful diagnosis, I believe a more concrete
symptom description is needed? (how does such "would be" bug manifestate
itself? Is it always the same "would be" bug or do many "would be" bugs
appear randomly? when do such "would be" bugs appear (during loading,
during execution of the add-on)?)

* "there's no file system errors"

I guess that means there are no issues with the
physical/electronic/magnetic integrity of the storage medium itself (or
that the filesystem has set them aside such that they are not used
anymore). In case corrupted/broken blocks on the storage medium would be
the root cause, something should be found in the logs as loading the
relevant python modules should throw an exception (if these exceptions
are not logged, it should be possible to do so). Therefore, I dismiss
storage medium/filesystem corruption as root cause of the above
mentioned "would be" bugs (assuming bugs have to be interpreted as
broken functionality).


* "I also notice a few functions of nvda either don't work at all or
nvda gets very sluggish in responsiveness"
@Roger: again, for any meaningfull diagnosis, provide a more concrete
symptiom description. What functions are you exactly speaking about?
What does "not work at all" exactly mean: do you mean sluggishness with
extremely long / infinite response times? Or do you get errors? or ...
Is the sluggishness general or does it happen in those specific
functions? What do you mean by sluggishness: response in only a second?
A few seconds? A minute or more? When does sluggishness happen: at time
of loading add-on/modules or continuously or ...?
* "... nor any fragmenting.". Statement from Joseph: "In case of Roger's
issue: a possible contributing factor is constant add-on updates. He
uses an add-on that is updated on a regular basis, .. ..., potentially
fragmenting bits of files ..."
The two statements appear to me as contradictory. Fragmentation may be a
root cause of sluggishness, but only when access to storage medium is
needed and not during general execution which typically takes place from
RAM rather then from disc. Therefore, fragmentation issues appear very
unlikely to me.

* "while the installed version is always stable as a rock." and "I use
the portable copy to test a couple add ons"
@Roger: how much do you use one and the other? How much usage does it
take before the portable copy gets degraded?
The two statements suggest there is a problem with the portable copies.
However, there seems to be nobody else experiencing the same problem.
Thus, I would translate this into the following question that you would
need to test/investigage further: is there a conflict between the
portable copies and your specific system setup, or is the issue caused
by the add-ons under test?
To test the former possibility, why not using a fresh portable copy
replicating the setup of your installed version instead of that
installed version for a while?
To test the latter that would probably require moving the add-on testing
to the installed version: I guess you are using the portable version for
this purpose, exactly to avoid messing up the installed version. Would
you have the possibility to do the testing in for example a virtual
machine, such that you can test on an installed instead of a portable
copy version, while not messing up your main system with this testing?
Joseph, anyone else: is there a (possibly more cumbersome) way to
perform testing on an installed version while keeping at all times a
possibility to revert back to a stable/clean situation? (e.g., having a
.bat script that swaps configuration file and add-on directories between
stable and testing versions and that can easily be executed in between
exiting nvda and restarting it?)
In case none of the above options is tried, my suggestions would be then
to regularly take snapshot copies of your portable copy such that when
degradation takes place a diff between stable and degraded version can
be taken and investigated.

In summary, I believe:
1) a much more concrete/detailed/... symptom description is needed
before any meaningful statements regarding diagnosis is possible;
2) with the info I have, filesystem/storage medium problems/corruptions
are very unlikely.
3) further testing/investigation is needed in order to support/dismiss
certain hypotheses.

Kind regards,

Didier

On 19/01/2018 18:19, Joseph Lee wrote:
Hi,
It'll depend on what type of drive it is. If it's a traditional hard
drive,
it'll degrade as data moves around, creating the need for
defragmentation.
This is especially the case when data is repeatedly written and the
file
system is asked to find new locations to hold the constantly
changing data.
In case of solid-state drives, it'll degrade if the same region is
written
repeatedly, as flash memory has limited endurance when it comes to data
reads and writes.
In case of Roger's issue: a possible contributing factor is constant
add-on
updates. He uses an add-on that is updated on a regular basis, putting
strain on part of the drive where the add-on bits are stored. Thus,
some
drive sectors are repeatedly bombarded with new information, and one
way
operating systems will do in this case is move the new data
somewhere else
on the drive, potentially fragmenting bits of files (I'll explain in a
moment). Thus one solution is to not test all add-on updates, but
that's a
bit risky as Roger is one of the key testers for this add-on I'm
talking
about.
Regarding fragmentation and what not: the following is a bit geeky
but I
believe you should know about how some parts of a file system (an in
extension, operating systems) works, because I believe it'll help folks
better understand what might be going on:
Storage devices encountered in the wild are typically organized into
many
parts, typically into blocks of fixed-length units called "sectors". A
sector is smallest unit of information that the storage device can
present
to the outside world, as in how much data can be held on a storage
device.
For example, when you store a small document on a hard disk drive
(HDD) and
when you wish to open it in Notepad, Windows will ask a module
that's in
charge of organizing and interpreting data on a drive (called a file
system)
to locate the sector where the document (or magnets or flash cells that
constitute the document data) is stored and bring it out to you. To
you, all
you see is the path to the document, but the file system will ask
the drive
controller (a small computer inside hard disks and other storage
devices) to
fetch data in a particular sector or region. Depending on what kind of
storage medium you're dealing with, reading from disks may involve
waiting
for a platter with desired sector to come to the attention of a
read/write
head (a thin magnetic sensor used to detect or make changes to magnetic
fields) or peering inside windows and extracting electrons trapped
within.
This last sentence is a vivid description of how hard disks and
solid-state
drives really work behind the scenes, respectively.
But storage devices are not just meant for reading things for your
enjoyment. Without means of storing new things, it becomes useless.
Depending on the medium you've got, when you save something to a
storage
device, the file system in charge of the device will ask the drive
controller to either find a spot on a disk filled with magnets and
change
some magnets, or apply heat pressure to dislodge all cells on a
block, erase
the block, add new things, and fill the empty block with modified data
(including old bits). You can imagine how tedious this can get, but
as far
as your work is concerned, it is safe and sound.
Now imagine you wish to read and write repeatedly on a storage
device. The
file system will repeatedly ask the drive hardware to fetch data from
specific regions, and will look for new locations to store changes.
On a
hard drive, because there are limited number of heads and it'll take
a while
for desired magnetic region to come to attention of one, read speed
is slow,
hence increased latency (latency refers to how long you have to wait
for
something to happen). When it comes to saving things to HDD's, all
the drive
needs to do is tell the read/write head to change some magnets
wherever it
wishes, hence data overriding is possible and easy. But operating
systems
(rather, file systems) are smarter than that, as we'll see below.
In case of solid-state drives, reading data is simple as looking up the
address (or sector) where the electrons comprising the data you want is
saved (akin to walking down a street grid), so no need to wait for a
sensor
to wait for something to happen. This is the reason why solid-state
drives
appear to respond fast when reading something. On the other hand,
writing or
injecting electrons is very slow because the drive needs to erase
the entire
block before writing new data. In other words, just changing a
letter in a
document and saving it to an SSD involves a lot of work, hence SSD's
are
slower when it comes to writing new things, but because of the
underlying
technology in use, it is way faster than hard disks.
As hinted above, file systems are smarter than drive controllers to
some
extent. If data is written to a drive, the drive controller will
process
whatever it comes along its path. But file systems won't let drive
controllers get away with that: file systems such as NTFS (New
Technology
File System) will schedule data writes so it'll have minimal impact
on the
lifespan of a storage device. For hard disks, it'll try its best to
tell the
drive to store file data in consecutive locations in one big batch,
but that
doesn't always work. For SSD's, the file system will ask the drive to
storage new information in different cells so all regions can be used
equally (at least for storing new information; this is called ware
leveling). One way to speed things up is asking the drive to
reorganize data
so file fragments can be found in consecutive sectors or trim deleted
regions so fresh information can be written to more blocks (for
HDD's and
SSD's, respectively), and this operation itself is tedious and
produce bad
results if not done correctly and carefully.

I do understand the above explanation is a bit geeky, but I believe
you need
to know some things about how things work. It is also a personal
exercise to
refresh my memory on certain computer science topics (I majored in
it not
long ago, and my interests were mostly hardware and operating
systems, hence
I was sort of naturally drawn to screen reader internals and how it
interacts with system software).
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
Roger
Stewart
Sent: Friday, January 19, 2018 7:58 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Portable version degrading

The problem with this discussion is my portable version is on an
internal
hard drive.  So why is this degrading?

Nothing else on this drive has any trouble and I've checked, and
there's no
file system errors nor any fragmenting.


Roger












On 1/19/2018 8:28 AM, Antony Stone wrote:
USB drives do need to be unmounted before removing them, otherwise
there
is
the risk of file system corruption. Precisely the same is true for
external
hard drives, floppy disks, or any other writeable medium you can
temporarily
attach to a computer.

I've never seen a USB thumb drive fall apart, and I think they're
considerably
more robust than floppy disks, which is basically what they
replaced.  You
can
also drop them on the floor with a good deal more confidence of them
working
afterwards than if you drop an external hard disk.

Yes, they're vulnerable to static electricity; that's why most of them
have
plastic caps to put over the contacts or a slider to retract the
contacts
into
the body.

My experience is that if they're treated reasonably they work very
well.
If
they're mistreated they'll give as many problems as any other
mistreated
storage medium.


Antony.

On Friday 19 January 2018 at 15:17:36, tonea.ctr.morrow@faa.gov wrote:

A few years back, I had a job for three years where people brought me
their
files on USB thumb drives. These things are horrible in terms of
long-life. The really do have to be unmounted prior to removing
from the
computer or they get corrupted. They physically fall apart easily.
And,
the hardware inside seems to be more vulnerable to static electricity
data
loss than other portable drives, certainly more vulnerable than most
computers.



I would think that would be the problem.



Tonea



-----Original Message-----

I've noticed over the past couple years that my portable install
of nvda
will sometimes degrade or get a bit corrupted over time all by itself
while the installed version is always stable as a rock. Does
anyone know
why this is and is there any way to prevent this from happening? 
I use
the portable copy to test a couple add ons and if the portable
version
corrupts, it can make it appear that the add on is defective or
has a bug
while it really doesn't.  Deleting the portable copy and making a
new one
will clear it up.  I also notice a few functions of nvda either don't
work
at all or nvda gets very sluggish in responsiveness and this all gets
back
to normal after a complete flush and remake of the portable
version.  As
I
say, this never has happened at all with my installed copy on the
same
computer.





Roger










Re: Blog post on Firefox 58.

 

Well navigational sounds will never become part of firefox, I asked the short answer is that due to the new web extentions framework, while a lot of improvements are made, there are a lot of things that have been killed for security reasons.

One of these is registry access which the addon uses.

It uses windows sounds.

So for that to even work it would have to have its own sounds and have those as part of the addon and each event would need adding manually.

It would be good if firefox had things like a download completed sound, or other sounds or simply had a way to access windows sound registry info or things, ofcause there is security issues accessing registry info I guess but if that was part of the permitions I don't see a problem.

One thing I was and am still sore about is the fact the new addons ie noscript due to what firefox did can not have the menu bar they had and options all of them are buttons which seem to be out of my reach.

On 24/01/2018 6:43 a.m., J.G wrote:
Hello,

I posted a comment on this blog about sounds in future Firefox (see it) and MR Zehe replied me, that he has not known Navigational sounds addon until now and there is currently no plan to embed sounds into Firefox. So if we want this feature, we must contact developers and politely request this feature.

regards, Jožef


Re: New custom NVDA Add-on. Who ask to?

Daniele Casarola
 

Thanks Didier for your suggestions.

I think you are focusing the main points.

Me too, I'm not 100% sure about which is the best solution to manage this issue. I can only try to guess, because until you don't try, you never know indeed.

Reading individual letters while pressing the delete button, is not convenient. Yes you are right, basically because a speed point of view.

I can identify two ways for audio feedback when I delete a word: stroke by stroke or word by word.

1. Delete stroke by stroke. Which is the default I'm using now. As I said, it works like an "undo" or "ctrl+z", for the group of letters you type. In practice what I hear when I press the delete button, should be part of a word, red in the opposite direction. For example if I type "telefono" in 3 strokes "te, le, fono". Deleting I hear "fono, le, te".
It is comfortable? I don't know. I should try. Maybe is confusing, maybe not. Maybe with a bit of exercise is ok. I don't know.

2. Delete word by word. This gives to me the opportunity to introduce a nice Plover feature.
Plover's core is basically the dictionary. A dictionary is a text file where each line corresponds to an entry, with this simple syntax:
"Steno Machine Strokes": "output on the screen",
An example:
"Cp": "Codice Penale",
So if I press the keys "C" and "p" together on the keyboard, on the screen I read the words "Codice Penale".
N.B. In this case if I press the delete button, both the word are deleted, "Codice" and "Penale", because they has been created with one stroke.

Instead of a text output, I can assign to Steno Strokes also a QWERTY Keyboard combination of keys, like in this example:
"Cp": "{#Ctrl_L(Backspace)}",
In this case, pressing on the steno keyboard "C" and "p", it is the same as if I press on the QWERTY keyboard "CTRL+Backspace".

Basically I can simulate each combination of a standard QWERTY keyboard, using my steno machine.

I tell you more. If I check the option “Handle keys from other applications”, I also can hear the audio feedback when I simulate CTRL+Backspace with the steno keyboard. So I hear the whole word that I delete.

As you can imagine, there are some problems with this set, otherwise we would not be here.

Mainly I've found three issues:

1. The first depends of punctuation. Plover automatically add the space between words. I don't have to press any spacebar. The space is automatically added after the word or punctuation. If I press CTRL+Backspace, an empti space is left with the previous word. So I can continue to type with any problem, the new word I will type after pressing CTRL+Backspace will not be attached to the previous one.
But in case I delete a punctuation like a comma, or a period, or a question mark, using CTRL+Backspace, the cursor stops attached to the previous word, so the word I will type will be attached to the previous one. You can try on a Wordpad application.

2. The second is basically the same as the previous one. It regards specifically Microsoft Word. I don't know why, anybody knows why, probably also the Microsoft Team knows why, but if you press CTRL+Backspace in Microsoft Word (the last versions), sometime the empty space is left with the previous word, sometime it isn't.
Looking on the web it seems a problem other people had, but I didn't found the solution. I mean it not only depends of punctuation, like in a normal case, but also between words with no punctuation.
Unfortunatly I cannot bypass Microsoft Word. It is the application all companies use. There are some macro inside we use to produce the final document.

3. This problem appears only if “Handle keys from other applications” option is checked. If I uncheck I solve the problem, but of course NVDA doesn't read in case of a CTRL+Backspace simulation,.
Before to type what a speaker says, I have to insert his qualification and name and surname. This is an example in case a witness called "Mario Rossi" speaks (in italian witness is "testimone"):

TESTIMONE ROSSI M. - Bla bla bla

I have a specific stroke to type fast the speaker's name/qualification. This is the syntax on the Plover dictionary:
"I/Tshr": "TESTIMONE ROSSI M. -",

So if I type in the first stroke the letter "I", and in the second the four keys "Tshr", the output on the screen is "TESTIMONE ROSSI M. -"

I've noticed that using this kind of entries, basically when the output is a long serie of characters instead of one or few syllables, in this case the output can be modified. It happens randomly. Without a specific logic I can understand. For example the output can be:

TESTIMONEEE ROSSI M. -
or
TESTIMONE ROSSI_M. -
or
TESTIMONE ROSSIII M... -

It is not a big mistake. But I cannot deliver an official document in this way. Sometimes the spellchecker tool is not able to find them. So “Handle keys from other applications” checked, modifys a little bit the output of my machine.

That's all.
In my opinion, maybe it is better to investigate about the second solution. It means to delete "word by word", using a "CTRL+Backspace" simulation, as also Sandra suggested. I think is more comfortable for audio feedback, instead of hear "syllable by syllable" which could be a bit confusing. About speed, I don't think there is a big waste of time, in some cases it could be also faster.
The wall is the three issues listed above.

Thanks again for reading.

Daniele.


Re: Two cautionary tales, beware and a laugh.

 

Hmmm yeah I found on both my win7 home old box 32 bit and my 7 pro 64 bit box and all my win10 home 64 bit pro and home units so weird.

you may have  to when you star the setup tab to the pain where nvda says pain hit space on that and tab again.

Sadly ccleaner seems to be loosing some access in some of its checkboxes to, not badly but still.

Some opperations especially in slower systems while they seem to complete seem to have it waiting a while to bring up the interface, in fact windows says its not responding then it does, sometimes it just doesn't and flakes out.

But its still a good program especially on faster systems.

On 24/01/2018 1:26 a.m., Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io wrote:
I never found any extra checkbox on the 7 home machine, but did on the pro 7 machine, which is most peculiar.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Shaun Everiss" <sm.everiss@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Monday, January 22, 2018 6:37 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Two cautionary tales, beware and a laugh.


Yeah, you need to tab twice to a checkbox and uncheck it and just make sure to do it the first time round else you will have to exit and relaunch the installer.

ccleaner is part of avast now so we are stuck with it now.

You just have to be awake, the first tab will mention something about security, tab again and there is the checkbox, overshoot and the installer will look like normal and you have to exit and come back in.

I usually update first thing in the morning but if you are half a sleep you will probably miss it.

Sadly a friend used a lot of free cleaners, cleanmaster, puron, ccleaner, and his admin decided that all the free software he loaded including ccleaner was malware filled.

And told him to use norton which his work uses.

Trouble is the interface is rather to complex.

For whatever reason some of my friends used norton at home and still use it.

Especially with the cpu slowdowns and patches, norton is just not something I'd use.




On 23/01/2018 1:00 a.m., Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io wrote:
Firstly the latest version of Ccleaner is becoming a pest. it seems to be able to unilaterally decide to install avast anti virus without telling anyone until its too late. Unchecky did not spot it and yesterday, I twice had to take a machine back a day to get rid of it as I'm sure you are all aware how unfriendly the uninstaller is to screenreaders. Its left bits all over the machine, including in some folders labelled Cisco for some reason.
I fell that I need to warn folk about this unacceptable behaviour of ccleaner. It claims, apparently to be easy to remove but not for us.

Secondly the laugh.
Microsoft Security Essentials is something we use in Windows 7, but a person I know was having issues with it crashing, so he sent me a dictated email about it via his Iphone. This wonderful software has renamed this Microsoft program as
Microsoft Security Squirrels.


OK fine, so I had this wonderful picture of the innards of my machine with all These squirrels inside burying viruses all over the place.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.







NVDA and Minerva Internet security

Adriani Botez
 

Dear all,

does anybody have experience with Minerva Internet Security? We have some
users who are reporting that after activating Minerva, no screen reader cann
be used anymore in that browser. I gues that it moves the application into
kind of sandbox but I don't know that software at all. The screenreaders can
not recognize any information at all.

Do you have any suggestions if this problem could be solved somehow?


Best
Adriani