Date   

Re: Old Braille Displays

 

I have used a PB40 and a Navigator for years with NVDA. Not quite as polished as JAWS support, but quite good, especially when you do object nav.


The trick is to choose brltty as your driver and configure brltty. Now that brltty is part of Windows 10 it's even easier. But basically you want to look at

    c:\program files (x86)

\brltty\etc\brltty.conf


which is its configuration file. It's a linuxthing. kind of like .ini files in old versions of Windows, these conf files.


The last two lines should read

braille-device serial:com1

braille-driver ts


of course you'd change your port if it's not com1.


Brltty has no parallel port support at all. My husband who is sighted actually wrote a parallel port driver for the PowerBraille, because he worked for TSI at the time. But they never released it and when Freedom bought the PowerBraille it became their property so unfortunately it's not possible for him to share the code. That has saddened him over the years, but breaking the law isn't something we do.


The items in a conf file that follow pound (number) signs are comments. The automatic configuration (pick "configure brltty" from the start menu is rather poorly written and does make mistakes. In particular it doesn't know if the file already has configurations for other devices.


You'll have to piece together how to do all this with the Nvda documentation on brltty and the brltty docs itself which are very Linux-centric. But I can help and it does let Nvda support anything that Brltty can support, which is most of those old displays. There are two-letter codes for each display in the brltty docs.

And one good thing is that any usb to serial adapter that works with Windows is good enough for brltty. It's not picky.


Re: Getting NVDA to Talk without sound caard

Gene New Zealand <hurrikennyandopo@...>
 

Hi


Do you have a old usb sound card laying around? They use generic drivers of windows. I got mine off ebay for not much only a couple of kiwi dollars. Then after you boot the pc plus it it in and then your speakers or headset into it. You then should hear sounds but you might also have to tell nvda to use that one as well under the synth settings.


Gene nz



On 10/10/2017 10:20 AM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:
Agreed. I remember when I made such a mistake almost 20 years ago. Lesson learned.

Take care and be blessed all.

On Oct 9, 2017, at 12:33 PM, Shaun Everiss <sm.everiss@...> wrote:

I would simply reformat the system and next time don't kill everything




On 10/10/2017 8:27 a.m., Howard Traxler wrote:
I have an older computer running windows XP.  Being totally stupid, I deleted the audio drivers and lots of other stuff that might have been necessary to run things.  It seems that it boots ok but now I'd like to get it to talk or even to run its alva braille display.  I think I have JAWS 9 on it--which, of course, won't talk or display.  But now, I've created a portable copy of NVDA, thinking that maybe I can somehow make the machine talk enough to get its drivers back and make it talk normally again.

Any ideas about this situation?  Thank you anybody.

Howard







--
Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related material at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net Regardless of where you are in New Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you can use a copy of the NVDA screen reader on one of their computers. To find out which locations (or location) is near to you please visit http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries (Aotearoa People's Network Kaharoa). To find an NVDA certified expert near you, please visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified individuals from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA expert exam.


Re: Getting NVDA to Talk without sound caard

Gene
 

That's a lot of work without trying other options first.  We don't know what has been removed but if you have a USB sound card or headphones, connecting them may give you sound.  You can buy cheap sound cards for ten U.S. dollars or perhaps less so you can try the experiment for little expense if you don't currently have a sound card.  Or you might be able to borrow a sound card or USB headphones.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, October 09, 2017 2:33 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Getting NVDA to Talk without sound caard

I would simply reformat the system and next time don't kill everything




On 10/10/2017 8:27 a.m., Howard Traxler wrote:
> I have an older computer running windows XP.  Being totally stupid, I
> deleted the audio drivers and lots of other stuff that might have been
> necessary to run things.  It seems that it boots ok but now I'd like
> to get it to talk or even to run its alva braille display.  I think I
> have JAWS 9 on it--which, of course, won't talk or display.  But now,
> I've created a portable copy of NVDA, thinking that maybe I can
> somehow make the machine talk enough to get its drivers back and make
> it talk normally again.
>
> Any ideas about this situation?  Thank you anybody.
>
> Howard
>
>
>
>




Re: Getting NVDA to Talk without sound caard

Sarah k Alawami
 

Agreed. I remember when I made such a mistake almost 20 years ago. Lesson learned.

Take care and be blessed all.

On Oct 9, 2017, at 12:33 PM, Shaun Everiss <sm.everiss@...> wrote:

I would simply reformat the system and next time don't kill everything




On 10/10/2017 8:27 a.m., Howard Traxler wrote:
I have an older computer running windows XP.  Being totally stupid, I deleted the audio drivers and lots of other stuff that might have been necessary to run things.  It seems that it boots ok but now I'd like to get it to talk or even to run its alva braille display.  I think I have JAWS 9 on it--which, of course, won't talk or display.  But now, I've created a portable copy of NVDA, thinking that maybe I can somehow make the machine talk enough to get its drivers back and make it talk normally again.

Any ideas about this situation?  Thank you anybody.

Howard







Re: Windows 10 is Very, Very Broken

Kenny Peyattt jr.
 

Hi Noah Have you got a iso on a flash drive to boot from and reformat?
Kenny Peyatt jr.

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Sarah k Alawami
Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2017 7:24 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Windows 10 is Very, Very Broken

You might have to reformat. Are you backed up?

Take care.

On Oct 4, 2017, at 2:26 PM, Noah Carver via Groups.Io <ntclists=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:

Hello List,

So, my Windows 10 is really pitching a fit! This all started when I had to forse shut down my win10 machine using the power butten, because of a total system hang. Then, I turned the machine back on. But NVDA did not come back to life. I tried turning on Narrator, and it wouldn't talk.
So I asked my dad to come and look at my screen. According to him, even when I pressed keys on the keyboard, the log in box wouldn't appear.
I've tried ctrl alt del, I’ve tried rebooting, nothing works. Any help would be greatly appreciated. I have a radio show in two days, and I have no backup machine.

Cheers,

Noah Carver



Re: failure when installing Microsoft Speech Platform Voices

Gene New Zealand <hurrikennyandopo@...>
 

Hi


Did you also install a tts voice you might of done the ones for voice recognition

Any how i have put the whole package in my drop box for you to download. It is only the runtime thingy and all the tts voices. I also sent some basic instructions of what to do.


Gene nz

?


On 10/10/2017 7:41 AM, Vicki wrote:
A few days ago I asked about installing Microsoft Speech Platform voices.
 
The synthesizer shows up in my list of options, but when I select it, I get an error message telling me  that it cannot be loaded.
 
Any suggestions?
 
Thanks.
 
Vicki
 

--
Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related material at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net Regardless of where you are in New Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you can use a copy of the NVDA screen reader on one of their computers. To find out which locations (or location) is near to you please visit http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries (Aotearoa People's Network Kaharoa). To find an NVDA certified expert near you, please visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified individuals from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA expert exam.


Re: failure when installing Microsoft Speech Platform Voices

Gene New Zealand <hurrikennyandopo@...>
 

hi Vicki


I have the complete package of those voices plus the thing to make it run i think it is called runtime.


Any how only one that is different is the thing you need to install first. all the rest are tts voices and are for all different languages. You will need to look for the voice you want to install.


It is about a 300 meg file and is version 11.


I will put it into my drop box account  and you can get the complete package and will leave it there for about 24 hours. You will need a program to unzip it like 7 zip etc.


the link to the drop box account is https://www.dropbox.com/s/oe67sgzjka0g922/Speech%20Platform%2011%20engine%20and%20voices.zip?dl=0


The file is called speech platform runtime this will need to be installed first then the tts voices.

After yu have installed some tts voices then after that go to the synth settings section in nvda then choose the speech platform synth package.

After that you need to go into the voice settings part of nvda to pick your voice.

Hope this makes it alot easier for you.

Gene nz

On 10/10/2017 7:41 AM, Vicki wrote:
A few days ago I asked about installing Microsoft Speech Platform voices.
 
The synthesizer shows up in my list of options, but when I select it, I get an error message telling me  that it cannot be loaded.
 
Any suggestions?
 
Thanks.
 
Vicki
 

--
Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related material at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net Regardless of where you are in New Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you can use a copy of the NVDA screen reader on one of their computers. To find out which locations (or location) is near to you please visit http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries (Aotearoa People's Network Kaharoa). To find an NVDA certified expert near you, please visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified individuals from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA expert exam.


Re: windows 10 and quentin c's game room

lauracornwell
 

OK thanks for letting us know I am glad that I could help. If you are on
skype my user name is crazy2857

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Rebecca
Ilniski
Sent: Monday, October 9, 2017 2:32 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [NVdA] windows 10 and quentin c's game room

Thanks so much! I got it and now have it installed and it works well.



Rebecca Ilniski and guide dog Zeb

Email: rilniski@gmail.com <mailto:rilniski@gmail.com>

Twitter: applegirl1994


Re: Getting NVDA to Talk without sound caard

 

I would simply reformat the system and next time don't kill everything

On 10/10/2017 8:27 a.m., Howard Traxler wrote:
I have an older computer running windows XP.  Being totally stupid, I deleted the audio drivers and lots of other stuff that might have been necessary to run things.  It seems that it boots ok but now I'd like to get it to talk or even to run its alva braille display.  I think I have JAWS 9 on it--which, of course, won't talk or display.  But now, I've created a portable copy of NVDA, thinking that maybe I can somehow make the machine talk enough to get its drivers back and make it talk normally again.

Any ideas about this situation?  Thank you anybody.

Howard



Re: windows 10 and quentin c's game room

Rebecca Ilniski
 

Thanks so much!  I got it and now have it installed and it works well.

 

Rebecca Ilniski  and guide dog  Zeb

Email: rilniski@...

Twitter: applegirl1994

 


Getting NVDA to Talk without sound caard

Howard Traxler <howard@...>
 

I have an older computer running windows XP. Being totally stupid, I deleted the audio drivers and lots of other stuff that might have been necessary to run things. It seems that it boots ok but now I'd like to get it to talk or even to run its alva braille display. I think I have JAWS 9 on it--which, of course, won't talk or display. But now, I've created a portable copy of NVDA, thinking that maybe I can somehow make the machine talk enough to get its drivers back and make it talk normally again.

Any ideas about this situation? Thank you anybody.

Howard


Re: Windows 10 fall creator update

 

well yeah, also we don't use fall like you do in the us its autumn here when fall happens so fall isn't used.

On 10/10/2017 6:55 a.m., Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io wrote:
Of course in the southern Hemisphere they will have to rename it Spring update presumably? :-)
Brian

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----- Original Message ----- From: "Don H" <lmddh50@adams.net>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Monday, October 09, 2017 6:18 PM
Subject: [nvda] Windows 10 fall creator update


I have read that Windows 10 Fall Creator edition now runs on ARM64 architecture.  Will this open up more devices that can also run NVDA?
Thanks





.


Re: windows 10 and quentin c’s game room

lauracornwell
 

Know it would not
.

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: Monday, October 9, 2017 12:56 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [NVdA] windows 10 and quentin c’s game room

Would this not find it again when you try to install it though?
Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "lauracornwell" <lauracornwell1@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Monday, October 09, 2017 2:22 PM
Subject: Re: [NVdA] windows 10 and quentin c’s game room


OK hears how to fix this trouble once and for all.
You need to go into your windows defender settings and add your down
loads folder to your exclude list and that should fix the trouble . I hope
that this helps.
- ----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian's
Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: Monday, October 9, 2017 5:26 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] windows 10 and quentin c’s game room

Don't know this one. I guess one might judge how good their security and
audience response is by your own experience. If they cannot be bothered to
respond to legitimate concerns, should you even trust that they have not
been hacked. I certainly would not trust such sites, no matter how well
respected the author was.Its the system admins of the site that should be
looking into this as I'd suggest lots of people will use defender/msse
since avast seems to want to take over the universe and make everything non
blind accessible.
Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: " Rebecca Ilniski " <rilniski@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, October 08, 2017 8:54 PM
Subject: [nvda] windows 10 and quentin c’s game room


Hi everyone. I’m using the latest NVDA and windows 10. I want to install
quentin c’sgame room. When I go to download it, my windows defender finds a
trojan win 32 in the file. Anyideawhat I should do because I really would
like to play. I did contact the website team but haven’t heard anything yet.
If you have this software did you have this problem and if so what did you
do?

Rebecca and Zeb
email: rilniski@gmail.com
Twitter: applegirl1994

On Oct 8, 2017, at 3:49 PM, Adriani Botez <adriani.botez@gmail.com> wrote:

I work with nvda in sap and it works great. Gor some purposes I an using
jaws though, together with the screen reader extension which can be
downloaded from the Sap market place and which is free.


Von meinem iPhone gesendet

Am 08.10.2017 um 21:38 schrieb Arno Schuh <arno.schuh@in-trier.de>:

Cobra is available since about 2009. Not from the 90s. It merged from
Blindows (Frank Audiodata) and Virgo (from Baum Retec).
And if you use SAP applications at work you need somebody who can write
the needed scripts to use the SAP applications of your employer.
Who does such things with NVDA? If possible at all to use NVDA with SAP.

Am Sonntag, 8. Oktober 2017 20:08 schrieb Adriani Botez
<adriani.botez@gmail.com>:

I have tried to work with Cobra, but it requires huge power. And I
think in Germany there is a really small group of people who use it,
especially people who began working with it in the 90s or so. Ther
are very rare updates on it, if so at all.

I have a Laptop with Intel Kabilake quadcore 3 GHZ, 16 GB Ram and one
Terabyte SSD hard disk and Cobra still causes big crashes on my
laptop when doing complex tasks. It happens when running jaws as well
but that may occure due to old pieces of code which have not
completely been removed from the source code yet. It is much better
though. NVDA does its job quite good without causing any crashes.

But for every day tasks, NVDA and Jaws are prety the same and crashes
are not occurring at all, or at least not caused by the
screenreaders.


Best
Adriani

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] Im Auftrag von
Travis Siegel
Gesendet: Sonntag, 8. Oktober 2017 05:13
An: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Betreff: Re: [nvda] A question for users of multiple screenreaders.

I installed cobra, but I just couldn't get it to do anything useful.
It acted like a microsoft product, in that it took over everything,
(and I mean everything), I couldn't get out of it to do anything
else, even when I didn't want to use cobra, I had one heck of a time
getting it to go away so I could start NVDA. Plus, it's keystrokes
are all completely different, and I couldn't manage to get the hang
of it. It looks decent enough, other than the whole taking over your
machine and not allowing you to use anything else thing anyway, but
for me the experience wasn't a very good one, so I finally managed to
get it uninstalled, and I don't plan to try it again. Cobra is made
by a german company. I don't rmemeber what it cost (if I ever knew),
but the demo did not strike me as being the kind of thing I needed,
so I didn't bother to follow up with anything regarding cobra. Your
mileage may vary of course, andyou're of course encouraged to try it
out for yourself, don't just rely on my experiences.


On 10/7/2017 4:27 PM, John Isige wrote:
Quite right! I didn't mention many other screenreaders because, I
suspect for many on the list, jaws is the other screenreader they're
likely to install, at least, that's my recollection of people who've
advocated for multiple screenreaders. Plus Narrator is built right
into Windows, so you always have it whether you want it or not, so to
speak. You don't have to do anything particularly special about it,
it's nothing you have to go and find and install.

I'm also not sure how fully-featured Narrator is, though I understand
they're really working on improving it. I did see an older article
the other day where somebody claimed to be using it as their primary
screenreader, they were quite taken with the idea that it was the
only one that worked with Microsoft Edge. But I keep hearing
conflicting opinions, some say Microsoft intends for Narrator to be
a full-fledged screenreader at some point, others say that's not
what they're trying to do at all. But anyway, it wasn't my intent to
slight Narrator, or any other screenreader for that matter. By all
means, if you've got experiences with something that does something
NVDA can't, in terms of accessibility to a particular program or
something, I'd love to hear it. The other day for instance, I saw
reference to a screenreader called Cobra. I've never even heard of
it before and have no idea if it's still being used, but if you use
Cobra and it gave you access to an antivirus program NVDA doesn't,
for example, I would love to hear about it.













Re: WebAim Screen Reader User Survey #7: Getting The Word Out About NVDA

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

Hi yes I agree.
That box you mention I think was based on the same chipset as most of the others in the 80s were, even the very cheap ones.
The cost went up when they had to make it actually work like a screenreader. My old Spectrum one simply read stuff supplied to it in s
It also had a variable let keys=1 which then allowed it to speak the keywords and normal latters, but it could not manage to actually speak as it needed things to be spelled in phonemes not plain english and really in the Spectrum if you loaded a machine code routine to deal with all of that you had little left for much else which was probably why in games it rread prompts in some adventures and things like I'll get you Jetman in games.
grin.

Brian$

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----- Original Message -----
From: "clive may" <magnolia.p@pobroadband.co.uk>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Monday, October 09, 2017 7:21 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] WebAim Screen Reader User Survey #7: Getting The Word Out About NVDA


Hi


My first speech synth was called a Namel Type'N'Talk. The instruction
manual was a set of photocopied A4 sheets. It had to be set up by
selecting a whole row of DIP switches and wired up by the user to use a
RS232 serial port.


There were 2 controls - an on/off switch and a volume control. Turning
it on produced the announcement "Ready Master!"


I had it connected to a QL computer. It was used by printing data to
the port using the in-built basic system. It was very crude with a poor
voice but it enabled me to use the computer. It was bought around
1987. I still remember it fondly.


NVDA has been my main speech program on Windows machines ever since I
discovered it around 2008. It has come a very long way since those
early days. In my opinion, it is surely in the front rank of screen
readers today.



.


On 09/10/17 10:57, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io wrote:
Yes those early speech synths, much like the old Sharp hardware used in Talking time and their early talking video machine were a bit like somebody trying to talk with their mouth full.
Note I still have a working talking time here today.
Brian

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----- Original Message ----- From: "Travis Siegel" <tsiegel@softcon.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, October 08, 2017 8:14 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] WebAim Screen Reader User Survey #7: Getting The Word Out About NVDA


There was a screen reader for the comodore 64 as well, I used to use it on my brother's machine to play the infocom games. It sounded very robotic, had no controls to change the spech, (or if it did, I never found them), and it talked real slow, but for 60 bucks, it was a good piece of hardware.


On 10/8/2017 12:47 PM, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io wrote:
What floppy discs?
In those days were only a little while ago. I still have a floppy drive on some xp machines, but since you want to know the history.
The old ZX Spectrum in 1983 had a thing called the Currah uspeach. It cost just over 20 quid, and was pretty dumb and the speech was, um basic shall we say, phoneme based and artificial.

Later on when I did away with old fashioned home computers with dodgy keyboards, I got a pc, It had a little hardware box but remarkably the cost had gone through the roof to several hundred pounds, funny that, Juno I think it was called and attached via an rs 232 cable to Hal screenreader.


Enough of this stuff....
Brian

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----- Original Message ----- From: "The Wolf" <hank.smith966@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Saturday, October 07, 2017 7:20 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] WebAim Screen Reader User Survey #7: Getting The Word Out About NVDA


what synth did it use?


On 10/7/2017 12:42 AM, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io wrote:
Remember them, I still have some.
Brian

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----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin Cussick via Groups.Io" <the.big.white.shepherd=googlemail.com@groups.io>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, October 06, 2017 9:27 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] WebAim Screen Reader User Survey #7: Getting The Word Out About NVDA


I used window's bridge ran on windows95 but I didn't use the pc much so can not really say if it was fantastic or not didn't really get back in until window's2000 anyway it did egsist but as said not really a combatant user at that time so can't say much about it. it came on some floppy disks remember them? anyway thanks for reading.

On 06/10/2017 00:08, Randy Barnett wrote:
I have been using Jaws since 95 and i have never even heard of windows bridge. If it was so good why is that? theirs only 2 windows screen reading programs today Jaws and NVDA. I don't count obscure programs no one has ever heard of...
Well, Narrator but that is not a full featured program yet.

On 10/5/2017 3:44 PM, Travis Siegel wrote:

The only statement in this thread I have to take exception to is the statement that jaws was providing access before anyone else. This statement is completely false.

The very first screen reader ever for windows was windowbridge. Windowbridge had a lot of firsts when it comes to screen reader functionality, including some things that still don't exist in any screen reader available today, such as mouse navigation via locking vertical or horizontal movement so you could find things on the screen easier.

It also was the first screen reader to use the caps lock key as a modifier, (something each and every screen reader has copied since), and it had a lot of other firsts. Just because a program is the most popular doesn't make it either the best, or the most advanced, or even the one with the most features. Jaws is popular yes, but a lot of that popularity is due to the fact that state agencies and other government organizations use it and their clients use it, it isn't the mostpopular because it outstrips every other screen reader in the market with it's feature set, capabilities and it's usability. Folks really should keep that in mind when deiscussing screen readers. There's a reason there are multiple (and always have been) multiple screen readers. Everyone knows, there is no such thing as one size fits all when it comes to screen readers, no program can be everything to everyone, and the screen reader market is no exception. Each screen reader has it's pros and it's cons, and what eacyh user uses should be up to that user, only that usually isn't the case. When I worked for a rather large computer company as a programmer and a tech support person, I did not get to choose what screen reader I wanted to use, I was told that I was going to use jaws, and that I was going to like it, because that's the only option I had. As it turns out, the copy of jaws I got was an illegal install that wasn't registered to me, and I had to spend my own money to purchase a program I didn't want, just so I wouldn't be liable if some sort of audit came through. Of course, said audit never did come through, but the point is, you never know what can/will happen, and if you aren't prepared, you could get in a lot of trouble, even for things you didn't do. Had I had my choice of screen reader, it would have been window-eyes, but I wasn't asked, and I wasn't even consulted about the question. Shortly afterwords, my case was closed by the visual services department, and I never got a single piece of help from them, even though it's their job to provide assistance with this very thing.

This message has strayed way off topic, and even into topics I didn't intend to bring up, but it all goes together, so there it is, make of it what you like.

The point though, is that whatever the screen reader is, it really should be up to the user to choose what they want to use. If they don't know, then showing them the options and allowing them to choose would be nice, but often times, that isn't what ahppens, and because of that, there is a false impression created that the program of choice (or the device of choice for that matter) is the best/first/what have you, when it could very just as easily be the bottom of the barrel, but nobody knows, because there is no option given.


On 10/4/2017 8:50 AM, erik burggraaf wrote:

Hi Randy,

On October 3, 2017 11:54:34 PM "Randy Barnett" <randy@soundtique.net> wrote:

Jaws has gone down in price over the years.


I'll give you this. Looking at the freedom scientific website, I can see that the home edition stands at $900, and the professional stands at $1100. These prices are about 2 or 3 hundred dollars cheeper than when I last had ocasion to keep track some four years ago. I guess that's about a 20% nock off. If it doesn't seem like much, that's because 9 c's is far out of reach of the home user. IE, government is still the primary target market for this product and I believe all my former arguments to retain validity.
FS has been fairly competative on hardware pricing I will give them that. I don't like most of their hardware, but I know many people who do and the price points make it attractive to both those who use it and those who pay. Of course, people who use fs hardware naturally tend to gravitate to fs software and vice versa. This is certainly not always the case, but I see it often.

Even more if you figure in
inflation. It has not gone up at all. Nor is it likely too.

No, I don't buy the inflation bit either, not considering the take home of the top brass at VFO. The pricing includes all overhead including reasonable inflation, so no. Plus, we're still debunking the research and development argument. Each release of jaws does not require the scratch construction of a new speech synthesizer, video display chain driver, and accessibility api among other core functions. Programmers are talented people who diserve to be paid accordingly, but the scale of the research required to maintain jaws now is nowhere near on the scale it would have been in the late 90's when there were no such things as accessibility standards.

Also, Gene touched on it and others may have too. They're not just selling jaws. They're selling training at a premium. I've seen quotes for scripting ranging from $150 per work hour, to $150 per code line. I'm working on a human rights employment case right now and just to get an audit of what needs to be fixed in this one company from an accessibility consultant is going to cost $15000. Just to find out what's wrong. Now, VFO owns one of the supposed leading consulting firms in this area, which means they can test with only jaws, and tout scripting at a premium. Also, you notice, they don't tell you how much it costs for remote access anymore? The ominous, "call for pricing". Let's not waste any clean-x on VFO's proffit margin shall we.

I am not a


big fan of VFO and criticize it often but they are like any other
specialized software. Have you ever price CAD, Audio design, CNC
mapping and other similar software? they far exceed the cost of Jaws.

Nop, Gene tried this one too, and I didn't have the time to address it but lets just say... No. If I buy jaws, it's money spent playing catch up. There is no doubt the benefits of hiring blind employees. It's the law, and I need to comply. There are lots of perripheral benefits, but no direct cost recovery. I mearly pay to supplement what I already have. IE, I have a great employee and an inaccessible workplace and jaws glues the two together. But I might be able to find another great employee who doesn't need jaws, and unless I'm planning to start a sideline in some area of accessibility work, I'm not seeing a direct return on my jaws or ansilary services like scripting.

The argument holds less water in the case of retirees who go blind later in life or other home based use cases. How many regular people have autocad in their house in case they want to doodle?

If I'm an engineer, I buy autocad. It is crutial to my job. It accellerates my workflow and directly earnes me money. If I had a professional recording studio, I'd pay top dollar for protools. Thousands or 10's of thousands of dollars for a licence is nothing, because knowledge and use of these tools generates direct return on investment in the millians or greater. Jaws does not offer anything close to that, so there's no comparison to be made at all.

Do I want cheaper Jaws? Of course who wants to pay more for anything!
Dont forget Jaws was providing access long before anyone else and it was
very good access at that. It has taken over 20years for someone to
provide a no cost alternative for the PC.
On 10/3/2017 7:58 PM, Gene wrote:
It should be pointed out that System Access isn't at all
equivalent > to
JAWS or Window-eyes. It cost less because it was much less
capable > and
didn't have to work with nearly as many programs. And it was
often
purchased, not as a standalone product, but with the SAM
Network. I
don't know if I have the name just right. But it could be
purchased
either alone or as an integrated product and I wouldn't be
surprised
if a lot or most purchasers purchased the whole package, which
may
have further led to lowering costs. Agencies wouldn't have
purchased
it in general because their thrust was employment and System
Access
wasn't intended as an employment product.
It was intended to give Internet Access, access to certain
e-mail
programs and to simple word processing. It cost about half as
much as
JAWS and Window-eyes and it was perhaps one-third as powerful.
Around 2000, whoever owned JAWS at that time attempted to
address the
affordability problem by making a product, Connect Outloud. I
believe
you could buy it and it also came, bundled for free with
Openbook.
What I heard when it was discontinued after perhaps two or
three > years
was that there wasn't enough demand to justify continuing it.
It provided Internet access, access to Winamp, Outlook Express,
Wordpad, and it may have provided access to one or two other >
programs.
I'm not sure why it wasn't popular at the time, given the
number of
home users who didn't need a powerful screen-reader and the
price of
JAWS and Window-eyes and, as I recall, it was before System
Access.
But those who insist on viewing whoever owns JAWS throughout
its
history as predators, perhaps they should consider this
information.
As far as whether HJAWs developers do enough work to justify
the > price
currently, I don't know.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
*From:* Lino Morales <mailto:linomorales001@gmail.com>
*Sent:* Tuesday, October 03, 2017 6:08 PM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] WebAim Screen Reader User Survey #7:
Getting > The
Word Out About NVDA

Great post Eric. I wasn't around in the 70's or didn't know
jack > horse
maneur about AT. Viva la NVDA!


On 10/2/2017 5:50 PM, erik burggraaf wrote:

Lots of for proffit companies made free or low cost screen
readers.
Serotek for one. Apple for another. I'd say both companies
were
successful to one degree or another. So, why didn't we see
governments lining up to pay for system access? Well, to a
lesser
extent some did, but if screen readers cost less, then the
funding
becomes less and the portfoleos of nondisabled people
making big
money from accessibility legislation shrink. We certainly
don't
want
that. But even at that, system access and the system access
network
lasted for a very long time, largely on consumer driven
support.

NVDA didn't succeed because it was not for proffit. It
succeded
because of the dedication of the people who started it, and
the
following those founders were able to inspire. It's
sustainable
because of the people who work on it. The fact that it is non
for
proffit gives it certain advantages such as the fact that it
can't >> be
subsumed by a for proffit. Lots of free windows screen readers
entered and left the market in the past 10 years. NVDA is the
only
one to thrive, much less survive, and it's because of the
talendt,
and the management.

Then again, the fact that NVDA itself is non for proffit
hasn't
prevented the organization from accepting grants and
sponsorships
from for proffit companies, and whatever I may think of those
companies individually, the output from those grants
contributed to
the general effectiveness of NVDA, which lead to more adoption
which
lead to donation revinue, which lead to more improvements
until we
have the body of work which now is viable enough to stand up
to a
commercial product in the vast majority of situations.

So, we'll have to agree to disagree on this. I've heard all
the
arguments for nearly as long as you have. I'll allow there
was a
time when they may have made sense to one degree or another.
Certainly the first opticon and kurzweil reading machine
costed
enormously more in terms of research and development than say
the
knfb reader mobile app. In fact, vast commercial uses for
scanning,
ocr, text to speech, dictation, and other technologies
developed for
disability communities are prevailant and highly intergrated
into
modern society. Accessibility legislation is between 25 and 50
years
old. Commercial standards for developing things to be
accessible are
well established and supported by legislation. Time and talent
still
cost money, but we stand on the shoulders of giants. It's not
what
it was in the late 70's and early 80's. Completely different
situation.

Best,

Erik

On October 2, 2017 5:25:39 PM "Gene" <gsasner@ripco.com>
wrote:

That is not correct and I've seen that argument many times.
JAWS is
expensive because it is a specialized product with a tiny
market.
If Windows had the number of users JAWS has, it would be
exorbitantly expensive as well. It's mass production with
enormous
customer bases that makes most manufactured products we use
inexpensive. You can argue about whether institutions could
cause
the price of JAWS to be lower by negotiating, I don't know
if the
owners of JAWS charge more than they need to to make a
product. But
anyone on this list who purchases or has purchased a
sophisticated
computer program that sells to a very small audience will
confirm
that such products are very expensive. Institutions may be
bureaucratic but they aren't fools. Entrepreneurs are
creative
and
inventive. If it were possible to have a screen-reader
with the
power and sophistication of JAWS for significantly less,
someone
would have entered the market at a cheaper price. They've had
more
than two decades to do so in the case of Windows
screen-readers.
Where are they, or even one?
The only way a powerful screen-reader has been developed
that is
within the reach of a lot of blind people is to completely
work
outside of the for profit model. NVDA is free because it is
not a
for profit product and relies on people working for about
minimum
wage, grants, and volunteers to develop and create add ons.
Which
proves my point. Someone else did fill the need for a
screen-reader
for people who can't afford a for profit screen--reader
but it
was
outside of the for profit model. Entrepreneurs are
creative and
motivated enough that, as I said, if a for profit
screen-reader
could be developed for a significantly cheaper price, it
would
have
been long ago.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
*From:* erik burggraaf <mailto:erik@erik-burggraaf.com>
*Sent:* Monday, October 02, 2017 4:03 PM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] WebAim Screen Reader User Survey #7:
Getting
The Word Out About NVDA

Accessibility laws change the game. The market for jaws is
different from the market of most other products. The
primary >>> target
market doesn't actually use the product. The reason
commercial
screen readers are sustainable is that governments in
developed
countrys have legislated that the government must accept the
financial cost of communication aids for people with print
disabilities as a means of leveling the playing field.
That is
why
the cost of the tecchnologies has always been out of reach
for
most
blind consumers, and very little to do with the development
cost >>> and
comparitive small size of the market as most commercial
access
technologists claim.

So, there's no evidence to suggest that vfo or any company is
planning to jack up prices even higher than they already
are, but
there are legislative hooks that might allow them to if
they >>> wanted.

I really think though that they are battoning down and
preparing to
ride out the end times with what they have. The
consolidation has
pretty much taken place. A few straglers haven't bought in or
bowed
out, but they have unique markets of their own.

The government funding that constitutes the primary
support for
products like jaws is on the severe decline as the use cases
for >>> the
products over cheeper less specialized alternatives growes
less and
less by the day. If the size of the market dictated the
price as
they always claimed, then considering the dwindling share of
the
market controlled by commercial AT, it makes sense that the
price
would go up, especially in the case of VFO's new exclusivity
agreements in geographic regions that were either not
controlled or
controlled by companies that are no more. The odd thing is,
with
NVDA distributed free as a noncommercial product, I doubt it
falls
under the commercial exclusivity agreements anyhow.

Best,

Erik

On October 2, 2017 4:24:22 PM "Gene" <gsasner@ripco.com>
wrote:

Why would the owners of JAWS commit suicide or strongly
encourage
purchasers not to use their product by doing something
ridiculous,
as you suggest? They won't. I don't know if they will try
different prices as time goes on to get the most profit
from the
most or optimum number of sales, but that is different from
behaving irrationally. Is this part of the JAWS is greedy
and
can
charge anything it wants argument? It doesn't matter in the
context of this argument, that I've heard for two decades
with no
meaningful proof given, whether JAWS is greedy or not. What
matters is that JAWS doesn't exist in a vacuum. It may
charge
what
the market will bear but it still operates in a market. If
institutions are willing to pay a price, JAWS may decide to
charge
it. But that doesn't mean that institutions are irrational.
They
aren't going to accept a thousand percent price rise of a
product
just because JAWS owners decide to try to charge it.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
*From:* Sky Mundell <mailto:skyt@shaw.ca>
*Sent:* Monday, October 02, 2017 3:00 PM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] WebAim Screen Reader User Survey #7:
Getting
The Word Out About NVDA

I totally agree with you Erick. The education institutions
that
deliver equipment to students in Vancouver and around BC and
here
in Victoria haven’t really embraced NVDA but I can see them
embracing NVDA sooner rather than later. Remember, FS
always saw
its main competition, Window-Eyes as a threat. Since the
main
competition is now gone, , eventually VFO could raise the
price of
JAWS a lot higher, say, to $10000 or so, and that would
force
educational institutions to go with NVDA.

*From:*nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] *On
Behalf
Of *erik burggraaf
*Sent:* Monday, October 02, 2017 10:12 AM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] WebAim Screen Reader User Survey #7:
Getting
The Word Out About NVDA

The sample size is very small in these surveys, but they
definitely show the paradigm shift and I won't be surprised
at all
to see mobile, mac voiceover, and nvda useage up, and jaws
useage
down. Window-eyes use should fall right off the charts
since the
product is discontinued. This will help slow the skid of
jaws, but
I think at least as many window-eyes switchers made it to
NVDA as
to jaws, despite the fact that jaws 18 was a free upgrade
for
Many
window-eyes users.

Since the new paradigm puts the blind more or less on an
equal
playing field, and social, legal and economic trends all
support
moving in that direction it shouldn't be too surprising that
blind
users want it more and more. I have thought for years that
2021 is
about the final stopping point for old paradigm designs,
particularly the personal computer, but I can see a lot of
tradition going by the board by then. This is all good for
us, and
it's nice to have something concreet to demonstrate the
trend we
can all see happening around us.

Have fun,

Erik

On October 2, 2017 12:57:37 AM "Sarah k Alawami"
<marrie12@gmail.com <mailto:marrie12@gmail.com>> wrote:

Wow, interesting. I'm not surprised. I wonder what we'll see
this year now that a lot of us are switching to nvda and or
android and or voiceover.

Take care



On Oct 1, 2017, at 9:34 PM, Gene New Zealand
<hurrikennyandopo@outlook.co.nz
<mailto:hurrikennyandopo@outlook.co.nz>> wrote:

hi Bhavya

I have been following the surveys after they survey has
finished.

I have also been noticing that the number of jaws users have
been dropping along with a few of the commercial screen
users
and magnifiers etc.

Also the use of mobile units starting to rise as in the
use of
android and apple devices that can go portable.

For me mostly home use is nvda 100 percent of the time
and if
mobile a android device.

Gene nz

On 10/1/2017 2:20 AM, Bhavya shah wrote:

Dear all,

Since almost a decade, WebAim, a non-profit web
accessibility

consultancy organisation, has been conducting an annual
(sometimes

biennial) survey, which, as its name implies, attempts to
gather

statistics about the usage share of different screen
readers,

technology (particularly Internet) accessibility trends,
etc. so as to

aid analysts, researchers, accessibility consultants,
sighted

developers, and mainstream companies to get a quantified
picture of

the state of the AT industry.

While this survey features participation from varied
geographies,

NVDA’s user base, at least in my personal view, has
always been

understated. While 8% respondents of the first December
2008 WebAim

survey reported to be NVDA users, this figure has only
increased to

14% of respondents in its 2015 counterpart claiming to use
NVDA as

their primary screen reader and 41% using it commonly, a
usage share

substantially lower than NVDA’s commercial and more
expensive screen

reading alternatives.

I think it would be a great way of playing our tiny part in
getting

the word out about NVDA’s viability and competency if
all NVDA

community members, users, testers and other related parties,

particularly from second and third world developing regions
which

often remain silent for such surveys but where free and
open source

NVDA makes a prominent impact, take this survey and
contribute to

letting the world know about the size and standing of the
NVDA user

base.

The URL of said survey is
https://webaim.org/projects/screenreadersurvey7/

.

It took me about ten minutes to fill this survey and the
form was

extremely accessible. Not only from an NVDA angle, but
filling such

surveys always brings out useful and reflective data,
which, in turn,

betters AT as a whole. Therefore, I urge everyone to take
some time

out for this survey so that we can make the data truly
reflective of

the actualities.

Thanks.

P.S. I am in no way affiliated to WebAim nor is my
intention to merely

promote this survey.

--
Image NVDA certified expert

Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness
related material at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net
<http://www.accessibilitycentral.net/>; Regardless of
where you
are in New Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you
can use a copy of the NVDA screen reader on one of their
computers. To find out which locations (or location) is
near to
you please visit
http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries
(Aotearoa People's Network Kaharoa). To find an NVDA
certified
expert near you, please visit the following link
https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The certification page
contains the official list of NVDA certified individuals
from
around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the
NVDA
expert exam.
--
Sincereley: Randy Barnett
Owner of Soundtique.
707-502-5575
1897 SE Dr.
Grants Pass, Or. 97526

<https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&;utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient&utm_term=icon> Virus-free. www.avast.com <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&;utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient&utm_term=link>

<#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>















Re: Windows 10 fall creator update

Antony Stone
 

Either that, or they get the benefit of 6 months' beta testing from the
northern hemisphere users before it arrives down under?

Antony.

On Monday 09 October 2017 at 19:55:17, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
wrote:

Of course in the southern Hemisphere they will have to rename it Spring
update presumably? :-)
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Don H" <lmddh50@adams.net>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Monday, October 09, 2017 6:18 PM
Subject: [nvda] Windows 10 fall creator update

I have read that Windows 10 Fall Creator edition now runs on ARM64
architecture. Will this open up more devices that can also run NVDA?

Thanks
--
If you were ploughing a field, which would you rather use - two strong oxen or
1024 chickens?

- Seymour Cray, pioneer of supercomputing

Please reply to the list;
please *don't* CC me.


failure when installing Microsoft Speech Platform Voices

Vicki <vwherry4@...>
 

A few days ago I asked about installing Microsoft Speech Platform voices.
 
The synthesizer shows up in my list of options, but when I select it, I get an error message telling me  that it cannot be loaded.
 
Any suggestions?
 
Thanks.
 
Vicki
 


Re: WebAim Screen Reader User Survey #7: Getting The Word Out About NVDA

clive may <magnolia.p@...>
 

Hi


My first speech synth was called a Namel Type'N'Talk.  The instruction manual was a set of photocopied A4 sheets.  It had to be set up by selecting a whole row of DIP switches and wired up by the user to use a RS232 serial port.


There were 2 controls - an on/off switch and a volume control. Turning it on produced the announcement "Ready Master!"


I had it connected to a QL computer.  It was used by printing data to the port using the in-built basic system.  It was very crude with a poor voice but it enabled  me to use the computer. It was bought around 1987.  I still  remember it fondly.


NVDA has been my main speech program on Windows machines ever since I discovered it around 2008.  It has come a very long way since those early days.  In my opinion, it is surely in the front rank of screen readers today.



.

On 09/10/17 10:57, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io wrote:
Yes those early speech synths, much like the old Sharp hardware used in Talking time and their early talking video machine were a bit like somebody trying to talk with their mouth full.
Note I still have a working talking time here today.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
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----- Original Message ----- From: "Travis Siegel" <tsiegel@softcon.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, October 08, 2017 8:14 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] WebAim Screen Reader User Survey #7: Getting The Word Out About NVDA


There was a screen reader for the comodore 64 as well, I used to use it on my brother's machine to play the infocom games. It sounded very robotic, had no controls to change the spech, (or if it did, I never found them), and it talked real slow, but for 60 bucks, it was a good piece of hardware.


On 10/8/2017 12:47 PM, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io wrote:
What floppy discs?
In those days were only a little while ago. I still have a floppy drive on some xp machines, but since you want to know the history.
The old ZX Spectrum in 1983 had a thing called the Currah uspeach. It cost just over 20 quid, and was pretty dumb and the speech was, um basic shall we say, phoneme based and artificial.

Later on when I did away with old fashioned home computers with dodgy keyboards, I got a pc, It had a little hardware box but remarkably the cost had gone through the roof to several hundred pounds, funny that, Juno I think it was called and attached via an rs 232 cable to Hal screenreader.


Enough of this stuff....
Brian

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----- Original Message ----- From: "The Wolf" <hank.smith966@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Saturday, October 07, 2017 7:20 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] WebAim Screen Reader User Survey #7: Getting The Word Out About NVDA


what synth did it use?


On 10/7/2017 12:42 AM, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io wrote:
Remember them, I still have some.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
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----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin Cussick via Groups.Io" <the.big.white.shepherd=googlemail.com@groups.io>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, October 06, 2017 9:27 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] WebAim Screen Reader User Survey #7: Getting The Word Out About NVDA


I used window's bridge ran on windows95 but I didn't use the pc much so can not really say if it was fantastic or not didn't really get back in until window's2000 anyway it did egsist but as said not really a combatant user at that time so can't say much about it. it came on some floppy disks remember them? anyway thanks for reading.

On 06/10/2017 00:08, Randy Barnett wrote:
I have been using Jaws since 95 and i have never even heard of windows bridge. If it was so good why is that? theirs only 2 windows screen reading programs today Jaws and NVDA. I don't count obscure programs no one has ever heard of...
Well, Narrator but that is not a full featured program yet.

On 10/5/2017 3:44 PM, Travis Siegel wrote:

The only statement in this thread I have to take exception to is the statement that jaws was providing access before anyone else. This statement is completely false.

The very first screen reader ever for windows was windowbridge. Windowbridge had a lot of firsts when it comes to screen reader functionality, including some things that still don't exist in any screen reader available today, such as mouse navigation via locking vertical or horizontal movement so you could find things on the screen easier.

It also was the first screen reader to use the caps lock key as a modifier, (something each and every screen reader has copied since), and it had a lot of other firsts. Just because a program is the most popular doesn't make it either the best, or the most advanced, or even the one with the most features. Jaws is popular yes, but a lot of that popularity is due to the fact that state agencies and other government organizations use it and their clients use it, it isn't the mostpopular because it outstrips every other screen reader in the market with it's feature set, capabilities and it's usability. Folks really should keep that in mind when deiscussing screen readers. There's a reason there are multiple (and always have been) multiple screen readers. Everyone knows, there is no such thing as one size fits all when it comes to screen readers, no program can be everything to everyone, and the screen reader market is no exception. Each screen reader has it's pros and it's cons, and what eacyh user uses should be up to that user, only that usually isn't the case. When I worked for a rather large computer company as a programmer and a tech support person, I did not get to choose what screen reader I wanted to use, I was told that I was going to use jaws, and that I was going to like it, because that's the only option I had. As it turns out, the copy of jaws I got was an illegal install that wasn't registered to me, and I had to spend my own money to purchase a program I didn't want, just so I wouldn't be liable if some sort of audit came through. Of course, said audit never did come through, but the point is, you never know what can/will happen, and if you aren't prepared, you could get in a lot of trouble, even for things you didn't do. Had I had my choice of screen reader, it would have been window-eyes, but I wasn't asked, and I wasn't even consulted about the question. Shortly afterwords, my case was closed by the visual services department, and I never got a single piece of help from them, even though it's their job to provide assistance with this very thing.

This message has strayed way off topic, and even into topics I didn't intend to bring up, but it all goes together, so there it is, make of it what you like.

The point though, is that whatever the screen reader is, it really should be up to the user to choose what they want to use. If they don't know, then showing them the options and allowing them to choose would be nice, but often times, that isn't what ahppens, and because of that, there is a false impression created that the program of choice (or the device of choice for that matter) is the best/first/what have you, when it could very just as easily be the bottom of the barrel, but nobody knows, because there is no option given.


On 10/4/2017 8:50 AM, erik burggraaf wrote:

Hi Randy,

On October 3, 2017 11:54:34 PM "Randy Barnett" <randy@soundtique.net> wrote:

Jaws has gone down in price over the years.


I'll give you this. Looking at the freedom scientific website, I can see that the home edition stands at $900, and the professional stands at $1100. These prices are about 2 or 3 hundred dollars cheeper than when I last had ocasion to keep track some four years ago. I guess that's about a 20% nock off. If it doesn't seem like much, that's because 9 c's is far out of reach of the home user. IE, government is still the primary target market for this product and I believe all my former arguments to retain validity.
FS has been fairly competative on hardware pricing I will give them that. I don't like most of their hardware, but I know many people who do and the price points make it attractive to both those who use it and those who pay. Of course, people who use fs hardware naturally tend to gravitate to fs software and vice versa. This is certainly not always the case, but I see it often.

Even more if you figure in
inflation. It has not gone up at all. Nor is it likely too.

No, I don't buy the inflation bit either, not considering the take home of the top brass at VFO. The pricing includes all overhead including reasonable inflation, so no. Plus, we're still debunking the research and development argument. Each release of jaws does not require the scratch construction of a new speech synthesizer, video display chain driver, and accessibility api among other core functions. Programmers are talented people who diserve to be paid accordingly, but the scale of the research required to maintain jaws now is nowhere near on the scale it would have been in the late 90's when there were no such things as accessibility standards.

Also, Gene touched on it and others may have too. They're not just selling jaws. They're selling training at a premium. I've seen quotes for scripting ranging from $150 per work hour, to $150 per code line. I'm working on a human rights employment case right now and just to get an audit of what needs to be fixed in this one company from an accessibility consultant is going to cost $15000. Just to find out what's wrong. Now, VFO owns one of the supposed leading consulting firms in this area, which means they can test with only jaws, and tout scripting at a premium. Also, you notice, they don't tell you how much it costs for remote access anymore? The ominous, "call for pricing". Let's not waste any clean-x on VFO's proffit margin shall we.

I am not a


big fan of VFO and criticize it often but they are like any other
specialized software. Have you ever price CAD, Audio design, CNC
mapping and other similar software? they far exceed the cost of Jaws.

Nop, Gene tried this one too, and I didn't have the time to address it but lets just say... No. If I buy jaws, it's money spent playing catch up. There is no doubt the benefits of hiring blind employees. It's the law, and I need to comply. There are lots of perripheral benefits, but no direct cost recovery. I mearly pay to supplement what I already have. IE, I have a great employee and an inaccessible workplace and jaws glues the two together. But I might be able to find another great employee who doesn't need jaws, and unless I'm planning to start a sideline in some area of accessibility work, I'm not seeing a direct return on my jaws or ansilary services like scripting.

The argument holds less water in the case of retirees who go blind later in life or other home based use cases. How many regular people have autocad in their house in case they want to doodle?

If I'm an engineer, I buy autocad. It is crutial to my job. It accellerates my workflow and directly earnes me money. If I had a professional recording studio, I'd pay top dollar for protools. Thousands or 10's of thousands of dollars for a licence is nothing, because knowledge and use of these tools generates direct return on investment in the millians or greater. Jaws does not offer anything close to that, so there's no comparison to be made at all.

Do I want cheaper Jaws? Of course who wants to pay more for anything!
Dont forget Jaws was providing access long before anyone else and it was
very good access at that. It has taken over 20years for someone to
provide a no cost alternative for the PC.
On 10/3/2017 7:58 PM, Gene wrote:
It should be pointed out that System Access isn't at all
equivalent > to
JAWS or Window-eyes. It cost less because it was much less
capable > and
didn't have to work with nearly as many programs. And it was
often
purchased, not as a standalone product, but with the SAM
Network. I
don't know if I have the name just right. But it could be
purchased
either alone or as an integrated product and I wouldn't be
surprised
if a lot or most purchasers purchased the whole package, which
may
have further led to lowering costs. Agencies wouldn't have
purchased
it in general because their thrust was employment and System
Access
wasn't intended as an employment product.
It was intended to give Internet Access, access to certain
e-mail
programs and to simple word processing. It cost about half as
much as
JAWS and Window-eyes and it was perhaps one-third as powerful.
Around 2000, whoever owned JAWS at that time attempted to
address the
affordability problem by making a product, Connect Outloud. I
believe
you could buy it and it also came, bundled for free with
Openbook.
What I heard when it was discontinued after perhaps two or
three > years
was that there wasn't enough demand to justify continuing it.
It provided Internet access, access to Winamp, Outlook Express,
Wordpad, and it may have provided access to one or two other >
programs.
I'm not sure why it wasn't popular at the time, given the
number of
home users who didn't need a powerful screen-reader and the
price of
JAWS and Window-eyes and, as I recall, it was before System
Access.
But those who insist on viewing whoever owns JAWS throughout
its
history as predators, perhaps they should consider this
information.
As far as whether HJAWs developers do enough work to justify
the > price
currently, I don't know.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
*From:* Lino Morales <mailto:linomorales001@gmail.com>
*Sent:* Tuesday, October 03, 2017 6:08 PM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] WebAim Screen Reader User Survey #7:
Getting > The
Word Out About NVDA

Great post Eric. I wasn't around in the 70's or didn't know
jack > horse
maneur about AT. Viva la NVDA!


On 10/2/2017 5:50 PM, erik burggraaf wrote:

Lots of for proffit companies made free or low cost screen
readers.
Serotek for one. Apple for another. I'd say both companies
were
successful to one degree or another. So, why didn't we see
governments lining up to pay for system access? Well, to a
lesser
extent some did, but if screen readers cost less, then the
funding
becomes less and the portfoleos of nondisabled people
making big
money from accessibility legislation shrink. We certainly
don't
want
that. But even at that, system access and the system access
network
lasted for a very long time, largely on consumer driven
support.

NVDA didn't succeed because it was not for proffit. It
succeded
because of the dedication of the people who started it, and
the
following those founders were able to inspire. It's
sustainable
because of the people who work on it. The fact that it is non
for
proffit gives it certain advantages such as the fact that it
can't >> be
subsumed by a for proffit. Lots of free windows screen readers
entered and left the market in the past 10 years. NVDA is the
only
one to thrive, much less survive, and it's because of the
talendt,
and the management.

Then again, the fact that NVDA itself is non for proffit
hasn't
prevented the organization from accepting grants and
sponsorships
from for proffit companies, and whatever I may think of those
companies individually, the output from those grants
contributed to
the general effectiveness of NVDA, which lead to more adoption
which
lead to donation revinue, which lead to more improvements
until we
have the body of work which now is viable enough to stand up
to a
commercial product in the vast majority of situations.

So, we'll have to agree to disagree on this. I've heard all
the
arguments for nearly as long as you have. I'll allow there
was a
time when they may have made sense to one degree or another.
Certainly the first opticon and kurzweil reading machine
costed
enormously more in terms of research and development than say
the
knfb reader mobile app. In fact, vast commercial uses for
scanning,
ocr, text to speech, dictation, and other technologies
developed for
disability communities are prevailant and highly intergrated
into
modern society. Accessibility legislation is between 25 and 50
years
old. Commercial standards for developing things to be
accessible are
well established and supported by legislation. Time and talent
still
cost money, but we stand on the shoulders of giants. It's not
what
it was in the late 70's and early 80's. Completely different
situation.

Best,

Erik

On October 2, 2017 5:25:39 PM "Gene" <gsasner@ripco.com>
wrote:

That is not correct and I've seen that argument many times.
JAWS is
expensive because it is a specialized product with a tiny
market.
If Windows had the number of users JAWS has, it would be
exorbitantly expensive as well. It's mass production with
enormous
customer bases that makes most manufactured products we use
inexpensive. You can argue about whether institutions could
cause
the price of JAWS to be lower by negotiating, I don't know
if the
owners of JAWS charge more than they need to to make a
product. But
anyone on this list who purchases or has purchased a
sophisticated
computer program that sells to a very small audience will
confirm
that such products are very expensive. Institutions may be
bureaucratic but they aren't fools. Entrepreneurs are
creative
and
inventive. If it were possible to have a screen-reader
with the
power and sophistication of JAWS for significantly less,
someone
would have entered the market at a cheaper price. They've had
more
than two decades to do so in the case of Windows
screen-readers.
Where are they, or even one?
The only way a powerful screen-reader has been developed
that is
within the reach of a lot of blind people is to completely
work
outside of the for profit model. NVDA is free because it is
not a
for profit product and relies on people working for about
minimum
wage, grants, and volunteers to develop and create add ons.
Which
proves my point. Someone else did fill the need for a
screen-reader
for people who can't afford a for profit screen--reader
but it
was
outside of the for profit model. Entrepreneurs are
creative and
motivated enough that, as I said, if a for profit
screen-reader
could be developed for a significantly cheaper price, it
would
have
been long ago.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
*From:* erik burggraaf <mailto:erik@erik-burggraaf.com>
*Sent:* Monday, October 02, 2017 4:03 PM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] WebAim Screen Reader User Survey #7:
Getting
The Word Out About NVDA

Accessibility laws change the game. The market for jaws is
different from the market of most other products. The
primary >>> target
market doesn't actually use the product. The reason
commercial
screen readers are sustainable is that governments in
developed
countrys have legislated that the government must accept the
financial cost of communication aids for people with print
disabilities as a means of leveling the playing field.
That is
why
the cost of the tecchnologies has always been out of reach
for
most
blind consumers, and very little to do with the development
cost >>> and
comparitive small size of the market as most commercial
access
technologists claim.

So, there's no evidence to suggest that vfo or any company is
planning to jack up prices even higher than they already
are, but
there are legislative hooks that might allow them to if
they >>> wanted.

I really think though that they are battoning down and
preparing to
ride out the end times with what they have. The
consolidation has
pretty much taken place. A few straglers haven't bought in or
bowed
out, but they have unique markets of their own.

The government funding that constitutes the primary
support for
products like jaws is on the severe decline as the use cases
for >>> the
products over cheeper less specialized alternatives growes
less and
less by the day. If the size of the market dictated the
price as
they always claimed, then considering the dwindling share of
the
market controlled by commercial AT, it makes sense that the
price
would go up, especially in the case of VFO's new exclusivity
agreements in geographic regions that were either not
controlled or
controlled by companies that are no more. The odd thing is,
with
NVDA distributed free as a noncommercial product, I doubt it
falls
under the commercial exclusivity agreements anyhow.

Best,

Erik

On October 2, 2017 4:24:22 PM "Gene" <gsasner@ripco.com>
wrote:

Why would the owners of JAWS commit suicide or strongly
encourage
purchasers not to use their product by doing something
ridiculous,
as you suggest? They won't. I don't know if they will try
different prices as time goes on to get the most profit
from the
most or optimum number of sales, but that is different from
behaving irrationally. Is this part of the JAWS is greedy
and
can
charge anything it wants argument? It doesn't matter in the
context of this argument, that I've heard for two decades
with no
meaningful proof given, whether JAWS is greedy or not. What
matters is that JAWS doesn't exist in a vacuum. It may
charge
what
the market will bear but it still operates in a market. If
institutions are willing to pay a price, JAWS may decide to
charge
it. But that doesn't mean that institutions are irrational.
They
aren't going to accept a thousand percent price rise of a
product
just because JAWS owners decide to try to charge it.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
*From:* Sky Mundell <mailto:skyt@shaw.ca>
*Sent:* Monday, October 02, 2017 3:00 PM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] WebAim Screen Reader User Survey #7:
Getting
The Word Out About NVDA

I totally agree with you Erick. The education institutions
that
deliver equipment to students in Vancouver and around BC and
here
in Victoria haven’t really embraced NVDA but I can see them
embracing NVDA sooner rather than later. Remember, FS
always saw
its main competition, Window-Eyes as a threat. Since the
main
competition is now gone, , eventually VFO could raise the
price of
JAWS a lot higher, say, to $10000 or so, and that would
force
educational institutions to go with NVDA.

*From:*nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] *On
Behalf
Of *erik burggraaf
*Sent:* Monday, October 02, 2017 10:12 AM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] WebAim Screen Reader User Survey #7:
Getting
The Word Out About NVDA

The sample size is very small in these surveys, but they
definitely show the paradigm shift and I won't be surprised
at all
to see mobile, mac voiceover, and nvda useage up, and jaws
useage
down. Window-eyes use should fall right off the charts
since the
product is discontinued. This will help slow the skid of
jaws, but
I think at least as many window-eyes switchers made it to
NVDA as
to jaws, despite the fact that jaws 18 was a free upgrade
for
Many
window-eyes users.

Since the new paradigm puts the blind more or less on an
equal
playing field, and social, legal and economic trends all
support
moving in that direction it shouldn't be too surprising that
blind
users want it more and more. I have thought for years that
2021 is
about the final stopping point for old paradigm designs,
particularly the personal computer, but I can see a lot of
tradition going by the board by then. This is all good for
us, and
it's nice to have something concreet to demonstrate the
trend we
can all see happening around us.

Have fun,

Erik

On October 2, 2017 12:57:37 AM "Sarah k Alawami"
<marrie12@gmail.com <mailto:marrie12@gmail.com>> wrote:

Wow, interesting. I'm not surprised. I wonder what we'll see
this year now that a lot of us are switching to nvda and or
android and or voiceover.

Take care



On Oct 1, 2017, at 9:34 PM, Gene New Zealand
<hurrikennyandopo@outlook.co.nz
<mailto:hurrikennyandopo@outlook.co.nz>> wrote:

hi Bhavya

I have been following the surveys after they survey has
finished.

I have also been noticing that the number of jaws users have
been dropping along with a few of the commercial screen
users
and magnifiers etc.

Also the use of mobile units starting to rise as in the
use of
android and apple devices that can go portable.

For me mostly home use is nvda 100 percent of the time
and if
mobile a android device.

Gene nz

On 10/1/2017 2:20 AM, Bhavya shah wrote:

Dear all,

Since almost a decade, WebAim, a non-profit web
accessibility

consultancy organisation, has been conducting an annual
(sometimes

biennial) survey, which, as its name implies, attempts to
gather

statistics about the usage share of different screen
readers,

technology (particularly Internet) accessibility trends,
etc. so as to

aid analysts, researchers, accessibility consultants,
sighted

developers, and mainstream companies to get a quantified
picture of

the state of the AT industry.

While this survey features participation from varied
geographies,

NVDA’s user base, at least in my personal view, has
always been

understated. While 8% respondents of the first December
2008 WebAim

survey reported to be NVDA users, this figure has only
increased to

14% of respondents in its 2015 counterpart claiming to use
NVDA as

their primary screen reader and 41% using it commonly, a
usage share

substantially lower than NVDA’s commercial and more
expensive screen

reading alternatives.

I think it would be a great way of playing our tiny part in
getting

the word out about NVDA’s viability and competency if
all NVDA

community members, users, testers and other related parties,

particularly from second and third world developing regions
which

often remain silent for such surveys but where free and
open source

NVDA makes a prominent impact, take this survey and
contribute to

letting the world know about the size and standing of the
NVDA user

base.

The URL of said survey is
https://webaim.org/projects/screenreadersurvey7/

.

It took me about ten minutes to fill this survey and the
form was

extremely accessible. Not only from an NVDA angle, but
filling such

surveys always brings out useful and reflective data,
which, in turn,

betters AT as a whole. Therefore, I urge everyone to take
some time

out for this survey so that we can make the data truly
reflective of

the actualities.

Thanks.

P.S. I am in no way affiliated to WebAim nor is my
intention to merely

promote this survey.

--
Image NVDA certified expert

Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness
related material at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net
<http://www.accessibilitycentral.net/>; Regardless of
where you
are in New Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you
can use a copy of the NVDA screen reader on one of their
computers. To find out which locations (or location) is
near to
you please visit
http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries
(Aotearoa People's Network Kaharoa). To find an NVDA
certified
expert near you, please visit the following link
https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The certification page
contains the official list of NVDA certified individuals
from
around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the
NVDA
expert exam.
--
Sincereley: Randy Barnett
Owner of Soundtique.
707-502-5575
1897 SE Dr.
Grants Pass, Or. 97526

<https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&;utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient&utm_term=icon> Virus-free. www.avast.com <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&;utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient&utm_term=link>

<#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>














Another bit of info on Firefox 57.

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1394207

Comment # 25 on Bug 1394207 from :Gijs (not here until monday)at 2017-10-09 01:49:53 PDT
(In reply to carl from comment #24)
(In reply to carl from comment #23)
This bug is only fixed in 57. It's expected that you're seeing this in 56, but
it's too late to fix this within 56 because it's already released, and this
issue is not severe enough to warrant a specific dot-release. If it's very
annoying given your usage pattern, you could consider switching to 57 beta.
Otherwise, this will be fixed when 57 reaches the release channel in a few
weeks' time.


Product/Component: Firefox :: General

Tracking Flags:
. status-firefox-esr52:unaffected
. status-firefox55:unaffected
. tracking-firefox56:-
. status-firefox56:wontfix
. status-firefox57:fixed

You are receiving this mail because:
. You reported the bug.

Quite right I did,
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.


Re: windows 10 and quentin c’s game room

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

Would this not find it again when you try to install it though?
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.

----- Original Message -----
From: "lauracornwell" <lauracornwell1@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Monday, October 09, 2017 2:22 PM
Subject: Re: [NVdA] windows 10 and quentin c’s game room


OK hears how to fix this trouble once and for all.
You need to go into your windows defender settings and add your down loads folder to your exclude list and that should fix the trouble . I hope that this helps.
- ----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: Monday, October 9, 2017 5:26 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] windows 10 and quentin c’s game room

Don't know this one. I guess one might judge how good their security and audience response is by your own experience. If they cannot be bothered to respond to legitimate concerns, should you even trust that they have not been hacked. I certainly would not trust such sites, no matter how well respected the author was.Its the system admins of the site that should be looking into this as I'd suggest lots of people will use defender/msse since avast seems to want to take over the universe and make everything non blind accessible.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: " Rebecca Ilniski " <rilniski@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, October 08, 2017 8:54 PM
Subject: [nvda] windows 10 and quentin c’s game room


Hi everyone. I’m using the latest NVDA and windows 10. I want to install
quentin c’sgame room. When I go to download it, my windows defender finds a
trojan win 32 in the file. Anyideawhat I should do because I really would
like to play. I did contact the website team but haven’t heard anything yet.
If you have this software did you have this problem and if so what did you
do?

Rebecca and Zeb
email: rilniski@gmail.com
Twitter: applegirl1994

On Oct 8, 2017, at 3:49 PM, Adriani Botez <adriani.botez@gmail.com> wrote:

I work with nvda in sap and it works great. Gor some purposes I an using
jaws though, together with the screen reader extension which can be
downloaded from the Sap market place and which is free.


Von meinem iPhone gesendet

Am 08.10.2017 um 21:38 schrieb Arno Schuh <arno.schuh@in-trier.de>:

Cobra is available since about 2009. Not from the 90s. It merged from
Blindows (Frank Audiodata) and Virgo (from Baum Retec).
And if you use SAP applications at work you need somebody who can write
the needed scripts to use the SAP applications of your employer.
Who does such things with NVDA? If possible at all to use NVDA with SAP.

Am Sonntag, 8. Oktober 2017 20:08 schrieb Adriani Botez
<adriani.botez@gmail.com>:

I have tried to work with Cobra, but it requires huge power. And I
think in Germany there is a really small group of people who use it,
especially people who began working with it in the 90s or so. Ther
are very rare updates on it, if so at all.

I have a Laptop with Intel Kabilake quadcore 3 GHZ, 16 GB Ram and one
Terabyte SSD hard disk and Cobra still causes big crashes on my
laptop when doing complex tasks. It happens when running jaws as well
but that may occure due to old pieces of code which have not
completely been removed from the source code yet. It is much better
though. NVDA does its job quite good without causing any crashes.

But for every day tasks, NVDA and Jaws are prety the same and crashes
are not occurring at all, or at least not caused by the
screenreaders.


Best
Adriani

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] Im Auftrag von
Travis Siegel
Gesendet: Sonntag, 8. Oktober 2017 05:13
An: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Betreff: Re: [nvda] A question for users of multiple screenreaders.

I installed cobra, but I just couldn't get it to do anything useful.
It acted like a microsoft product, in that it took over everything,
(and I mean everything), I couldn't get out of it to do anything
else, even when I didn't want to use cobra, I had one heck of a time
getting it to go away so I could start NVDA. Plus, it's keystrokes
are all completely different, and I couldn't manage to get the hang
of it. It looks decent enough, other than the whole taking over your
machine and not allowing you to use anything else thing anyway, but
for me the experience wasn't a very good one, so I finally managed to
get it uninstalled, and I don't plan to try it again. Cobra is made
by a german company. I don't rmemeber what it cost (if I ever knew),
but the demo did not strike me as being the kind of thing I needed,
so I didn't bother to follow up with anything regarding cobra. Your
mileage may vary of course, andyou're of course encouraged to try it
out for yourself, don't just rely on my experiences.


On 10/7/2017 4:27 PM, John Isige wrote:
Quite right! I didn't mention many other screenreaders because, I
suspect for many on the list, jaws is the other screenreader they're
likely to install, at least, that's my recollection of people who've
advocated for multiple screenreaders. Plus Narrator is built right
into Windows, so you always have it whether you want it or not, so to
speak. You don't have to do anything particularly special about it,
it's nothing you have to go and find and install.

I'm also not sure how fully-featured Narrator is, though I understand
they're really working on improving it. I did see an older article
the other day where somebody claimed to be using it as their primary
screenreader, they were quite taken with the idea that it was the
only one that worked with Microsoft Edge. But I keep hearing
conflicting opinions, some say Microsoft intends for Narrator to be
a full-fledged screenreader at some point, others say that's not
what they're trying to do at all. But anyway, it wasn't my intent to
slight Narrator, or any other screenreader for that matter. By all
means, if you've got experiences with something that does something
NVDA can't, in terms of accessibility to a particular program or
something, I'd love to hear it. The other day for instance, I saw
reference to a screenreader called Cobra. I've never even heard of
it before and have no idea if it's still being used, but if you use
Cobra and it gave you access to an antivirus program NVDA doesn't,
for example, I would love to hear about it.













Re: Windows 10 fall creator update

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

Of course in the southern Hemisphere they will have to rename it Spring update presumably? :-)
Brian

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Please address personal email to:-
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Don H" <lmddh50@adams.net>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Monday, October 09, 2017 6:18 PM
Subject: [nvda] Windows 10 fall creator update


I have read that Windows 10 Fall Creator edition now runs on ARM64 architecture. Will this open up more devices that can also run NVDA?
Thanks