Date   

Re: The DOM Debate

Adriani Botez
 

And to stay at the comparison with table navigation, the position here can be reported as pixels from top left of the screen instead of row and column number in tables.
Best
Adriani
Von meinem iPhone gesendet

Am 03.12.2017 um 21:03 schrieb Adriani Botez <adriani.botez@...>:

The good thing about golden cursor is also the fact that it plays a sound when you reach the borders of the screen, comparable to table navigation when using ctrl + alt + arrow key. In golden cursor you use windows + nvda + arrow keys. You can then easily assess how far objects are from top, bottom, left or right edge.

Best
Adriani


Von meinem iPhone gesendet

Am 03.12.2017 um 20:48 schrieb Gene New Zealand <hurrikennyandopo@...>:

Hi

In short with golden cursor it lets you move the mouse around with  the arrow keys plus 2 others. Plus part of it also is when turned on it will tell you the pixel cordinates etc so you know where things are on the screen. This can be turned on and off.

It also lets you say in one of my scanner programs there were buttons  or parts i could not get to so for a example there might of been ones for scanning, ocring etc i could locate them then add like a hot point give it a name within that program i could do a few of them and then say the next time i went in where ever those buttons etc were marked i could bring up a list of those coordinates that were marked then press the enter key on it and the mouse would route straight to that position. I could do that to any of the ones marked in that program but also was not only limited to that program.

I think also you could restrict it to windows etc as well but never used that side of it.

With nvda you can move the mouse around physically and hear what is spoken below it but with golden cursor it takes it even further.

I now have the knfb reader software on the computers so the old scanner program is not used now as the knfb reader is accessible.

by the way i am not sure if it got changed but 2 of the directions for shortcuts were put around the wrong way. I would have to go back in to see if it was changed.

Gene nz

 
On 12/4/2017 2:35 AM, Christopher-Mark Gilland wrote:
You know... I heard about Golden Cursor, but never totally understood the concept of what it did exactly, even after reading it's description.
---
Christopher Gilland
Co-founder of Genuine Safe Haven Ministries
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, December 03, 2017 3:35 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

And I forgot to mention the addon golden cursor. It is incredibly good at presenting you the screen as it is. And it makes the learning process very enjoyable. However, these things can certainly be improved, as it is the case for almost everything. Nothing is 100% perfect.

Best
Adriani


Von meinem iPhone gesendet

Am 03.12.2017 um 09:26 schrieb Adriani Botez <adriani.botez@...>:

apart from the addon audiothemes 3d when needed, I am using for example the ultrabook Dell xps13. I aggree, it might a bit more expensive than acer or so. But the thing is that on this laptop the screen is also a touch sensitive surface. That means I can explore a website by moving the finger on the screen while working as usual with keyboard and mouse.


Best
Adriani

Von meinem iPhone gesendet

Am 03.12.2017 um 07:22 schrieb Christopher-Mark Gilland <clgilland07@...>:

Again:
 
I couldn't agree with you more! Thanks for your contribution to this thread.
---
Christopher Gilland
Co-founder of Genuine Safe Haven Ministries
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 8:28 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

Well, let‘s advance it a bit. As far as I understand the key discussion points, it is all focused on how sighted people present information to us (the link at the bottom on the right) and our ability to find it by the screen reader. But we need to present information to sighted people aswel. And here is the point. What if you have a sighted customer who searches something on a website and needs your help? You say, the link is called Contact. And the customer says, hm I cannot find it. Then you have to approximately know where it is located on the page.
 Another example is power point. If you exercise in learning structures, then you will be able to ilustrate things in a simple way. It is not easy to get into it, I aggree. But it is not the best solution to find a way to always avoid this. Because structuring is a very important skill.


Best
Adriani


Von meinem iPhone gesendet

Am 02.12.2017 um 21:19 schrieb Gene <gsasner@...>:

Your response to my message yesterday appeared to say that because of exceptions, what I was saying wasn't an adequate approach.  That may not have been what you meant.  But there is no way to account for all exceptions.  The best that can be done is to have a general understanding of how web pages are laid out so that, when someone says, as in your example, the link is on the right, that the blind person will know, if it matters in this particular case, that that means he will find the link in the bloc at the bottom of the page, as he sees it.  Also, the NVDA feature that allows you to see the screen as originally organized uses the phrase, when supported.  I don't know what that means or how many pages that means aren't shown as organized when this feature is on.  I hope we hear from a knowledgeable person in the area we are discussing. 
 
If I misunderstand your position, please clarify it.  Your example of two contact links yesterday appeared to blame reorganization for the problem.  I think the problem is caused by bad training.  If you know the structure of web pages and there are two contact links, the second one you get to using the find command will be in the bloc at the bottom of the web page in general and that is the one the person would use. Of course, there may be exceptions, but you can't accommodate all exceptions to make everything completely predictable in determining how a page is displayed..
 
You could use the show as on screen settting but that wouldn't necessarily make things easier or faster in any meaningful way.  Suppose the contact link is then shown to the blind person on the right side of the screen.  Then the blind person would, as I understand how this would work regarding find, use the first result, not the second.  But how is that easier?  It's just not repeating the search one time, a trivial use of time.  Beyond a certain point the user is responsible for dealing with various situations but if the user doesn't get proper training, the user can't assume the responsibility required because he doesn't even know what the problem is or what can be done.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 1:44 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

When ever did I say that I was disagreeing with you? The only thing that I disagreed about is your statement which I very likely have apparently misunderstood that all/most websites are laid out with the exact format you described. I'm not sure where the disconnect is occuring.
---
Christopher Gilland
Co-founder of Genuine Safe Haven Ministries
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Gene
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 1:57 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

If that is what you were trying to say, then why are you disagreeing with me?  Having a page be shown as a sighted person sees it isn't the important factor when working with sighted people.  it's knowing how a page is organized so that when  a sighted person says, the link is on the right, the blind person will know that on the right means the bloc of links he/she sees at the bottom of the page.  This link can be found with the find command just as easily either way and other navigation on the page may be easier.  Calling this the dom debate isn't accurate either because it implies that the dom is responsible for reorganization.  The dom doesn't require reorganization.  Reorganization is done by screen-readers by design, because it makes navigation easier in most contexts.  But the dom doesn't prefer one organization over another.  The dom is just a way of making screen-readers aware of where information is on the screen.  How it is organized is up to the screen-reader designer.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 12:39 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

Thank you! This precisely 100% what I was attempting to say initially.
---
Christopher Gilland
Co-founder of Genuine Safe Haven Ministries
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 12:41 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

For many many users it is important to know somehow the structure how information is being presented because they comunicate and work together  with sighted people. Yes, it is very important to find content for one self as fast as possible. But we should not forget to learn structures and so on.

Best
Adriani


Von meinem iPhone gesendet

Am 02.12.2017 um 18:07 schrieb JM Casey <crystallogic@...>:

Hi.

Not sure I really have anything constructive to contribute to this debate. I just wanted to say that whatever screen-reader I was using, I always use the find command, and always have. No tutorials needed. What could be simpler? There are pages I want to read through, and pages where I just want to get stuff done. This is often the fastest and most efficient way, and I feel like this would naturally occur to most users. It sounds like you are saying it doesn’t, and that surprises me – but I’ve not ever received much training for anything, as I always preferred to try things and find out for myself.

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: December 2, 2017 6:07 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

Nothing is perfect.  Search is a very underused and very effective feature that screen-readers offer and it is at times more effective than using other methods.  I didn't say to always use find and I didn't say to always explore web pages and I didn't say to repeatedly explore the same page when looking for the same thing.  Using find is not exploring the web page in the sense that you spend a lot of time looking in detail at the page.  At times, this is necessary.  It often isn't, and here are examples. 

If you are looking for an add to cart button, you can use the b command to move through buttons.  Depending on page layout, this may be faster than using search or it may be slower.  Why do you have to explore a page again every time?  You may have to explore a page, you may not.  Doing what I suggested, searching for a word like contact and repeating the search isn't exploring the page.  You are looking for a specific thing.  Also, there are many patterns that a lot of web pages follow.  if you want to listen to a radio station and you are on the site, if you search for the word "listen" from the top of the page, you are very likely to find a link with the word "listen" in it, such as "listen live."  What if a site has a link that says, clic, to listen or some such variation.  That's why I strongly advocate against using the links list on unfamiliar sites.  If a link has a word that is common for such links such as listen, it will often be the first word.  It won't always.  Search will find such a link.  The links list, if you move by first letter navigation, won't find it where you expect and you may waste time and effort looking through a page when one search for the word "listen" might well have found it. 

Contact is another example.  Almost every site that provides a way for you to contact someone, such as a letters editor, etc. will have the word contact as part of the link.  As in my previous example, contact will often be the first word.  Not always. 

The inadequate training  a lot of people get teaches movement by heading and how to use the skip blocs of links command.  But it doesn't anywhere nearly teach or emphasize using the find command and thus cheats blind people and makes it much more difficult for them to use sites where headings or other quick navigation techniques don't yield good results.  And there are times, such as I've discussed, when using other techniques isn't the best first approach because they often work but not always. 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 2:47 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

Agreed but many people tend to fall back on their memory of a page as even
if they did explore it at the start, to do so every time is a bit slow.
Of course some pages like Google web mail has some shortcuts, but to me I
find such things still sluggish to use.

Amazon seem to often have interesting variations on a theme where certain
buttons can be a link instead, presumably due to their attempts to get you
to buy other stuff when you selected a particular one. For the sighted this
looks obvious, but would you  actually  really want to explore the page
every time considering how busy their site is with rotating suggestions and
the like? I agree search is a good thing to use but I've been fooled more
than once by there being several buying choices all with add to basket
buttons for example.
 Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene" <gsasner@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 8:19 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate


And I wonder how much actual training material such as tutorials explains
this or does so to any extent.  Unless things have changed, and I havedn't
seen much discussion in quite some time, even small changes in a web site
causes mass confusion because so many people aren't taught to explore pages.
Just changing the download link to a download button caused a lot of
confusion when Send Space made that change.  I hardly noticed it when it
happened because I used the screen-reader search feature to find the word
"download."  I found the control just as easily and quickly either way.
Actually, the button is faster and easier because now I just type b once
from the top of the page to find it.  But to those who learn by rote, even
minute changes may lead to an inability to do something on a site.

Gene
----- Original Message -----
Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Ron Canazzi
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 12:35 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate


Hi Gene,

\

I have had bad experiences with TVI people.  One of them when asked if she
knew the basics of teaching JAWS said: "No, but I and my client will learn
it together."  That speaks volumes.






On 12/1/2017 11:07 AM, Gene wrote:

  Certainly, for those who want to use programs that are not completely
accessible, and that includes most somewhat demanding and more demanding
users, those are important things to learn.  But in this case, I think my
analysis points to a much deeper problem, the poor Internet instruction a
lot of blind people evidently get.  I wonder how much traning material
explains things such as I describe.  I don't know but I'm skeptical that it
is explained in a lot of material because of the kinds of problems and
questions people raise about using the Internet.

  Gene
  ----- Original Message -----

  From: Ron Canazzi
  Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 9:42 AM
  To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
  Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate


  Hi Gene,




  Long story short of your analysis: learn to use your screen reader's quick
navigation keys and other features.  This allows the reorganization and the
advantages of DOM to coexist.






  On 12/1/2017 6:44 AM, Gene wrote:

    If you know how web pages are actually organized, the contacts problem
and other such possible problems can be eliminated very easily.  We, blind
people,  see a lot of links moving down from the top of the page.  A sighted
person sees these running down the left side of the page in a column. Then
we see the main content below the links. A sighted person sees the content
toward the middle of the page, moving from left to right on the page.  Then
a blind user sees a lot of links in a block at the bottom of the page.  A
sighted person sees these links running down the right side of the page in
another column, in the same way as the links on the left side are seen.

    So a blind person sees a bloc of links at the top, main content below
the links then another block of links at the bottom.  A sighted person sees
links running down the left side, main content to the right of those links,
and on the right another block of links running down the page in a column.

    So, if you are using a screen-reader with the ridiculous word wrap
feature, turn it off if it isn't off.  then do a screen-reader search for
the word contact from the top of the page.  Repeat the search to see how
many contact links there are.  The one a sighted person describes as being
on the right is the one the blind person will see as the second one, if
there are only two and no more and there shouldn't be any more.  If there is
only one, there is, of course, no problem.  When you get to the last one, if
you repeat the search again, you will get an error message.  If you dismiss
the error message, you will still be on the link.  You won't lose your
place.

    You don't have to give up all the advantages of reorganization and
usually it is much better to leave reorganization on.

    Gene
    ----- Original Message -----

    From: Christopher-Mark Gilland
    Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 3:08 AM
    To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
    Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate


    Adriani,

    You make some extremely valid points which should be carefully
considered, yes. Thanks for your contribution to the thread, and fair enough
statements.
    ---
    Christopher Gilland
    Co-founder of Genuine Safe Haven Ministries

    http://www.gshministry.org
    (980) 500-9575
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Adriani Botez
      To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
      Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 3:58 AM
      Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate


      Hello,


      I an not using screen layout like in your second example due to
following reasons:
      - By navigating with down arrow link by link I can decide by myself
how fast things are being red since I can decide not to hear the whole link
label, but only let‘s say the first half of the word. I don‘t have to wait
until the last link on the tab is being announced
      - If I want to navigate link by link in screen layout, then I have to
press the ctrl key and the right arrow key (applies only for link bars like
you have described or for forms with many elements on one line). The problem
is that pressing ctrl + right arrow NVDA reads word by word and not link by
link or button by button. So I am navigating much slower through the content
      - When navigating by ctrl + right arrow through a link bar with 5
links to focus the last one, I don‘t know when the bar ends unless I have
listened to NVDA reading the whole bar before
      - There is the NVDA addon audiotheme 3d which gives me a screen
presentation by playing a short sound in my headfones exactly at the
position where the object is located on the screen.


      Best
      Adriani



      Von meinem iPhone gesendet

      Am 01.12.2017 um 09:20 schrieb Christopher-Mark Gilland
<clgilland07@...>:


        For those who may have a bit of a hearing impairment, let me make it
very clear. In my subject, I'm saying DOM, D O M, not balm, b A L M.
Although some may call DOM the balm. LOL! And here therefore lies the reason
for my post this morning. - I fully realize that this is somewhat a
subjective topic, and that everyone will have his or her own opinions on the
matter. It is therefore my hope, that you, the reader, have an open and
civil mind, and observe this question from all angles before making your
response statement on list. I do not want to see this grow to a heated war
debate. Anyone who would like to publish this on their website, or wherever
is welcome to do so as long as you give credit back to me.

        First off, what is DOM?

        DOM, Document Object Model, without getting too technical, is one
way in which assistive technology such as screen readers obtain information
from one's computer screen. When we load a website in our browser of choice,
for example, some screen readers use the DOM functionality to draw a
representation of the content on the screen.

        So, what does this mean to us non-techies?

        Put simply, though I am not particularly sure of the exact workflow
which occurs behind the scene, what I can tell you is this. Often times,
more than not, this approach requires the assistive technology sitting in
between the user and the web browser to redraw, as some would say, the
entire HTML content in completion. The reason that the word "redraw" is used
is because essentially, this is exactly what is happening.

        Once a website is loaded, a certain amount of memory is allocated
aside where the website in question may be rendered. There are a few
advantages to this, however there are also some huge setbacks.

        Beauty and the Beast

        One of the advantages which probably appears to be fairly obvious
from an outsider's perspective is that this will allow assistive technology
to use certain methods to gather the web content and then present the
material in an easy, robust, and sensably accessible manor. As the writer of
this post, let me assure all of you... I definitely see the side of this
argument.

        Here's a practical example of DOM.

        Let's assume, for just a moment, that you have loaded a website in
the browser of your preference, be it Firefox, Internet Explorer, Chrome,
etc.

        On this particular page, there are links which visually appear as
horizontal tabs extending across the top of the page. These tabs include the
following:

          a.. Home
          b.. About Us
          c.. Blog
          d.. Shop
          e.. Support
          f.. Contact Us

        To fully understand how this works, I encourage you to read the
following part of this e-mail by using your down arrow key, and reading line
by line individually. Here is what you will see. Remember before I go any
further with this, all of these links visually appear as one strip of
horizontal tabs running across the top of the web page.

        Link Home
        Link About Us
        Link Blog
        Link Shop
        Link Support
        Link Contact Us

        Here's another example.

        You have a short form on a website. This form asks for your first
name, your last name, and your e-mail address. Here's how DOM most likely
would reinterpret this. Again, please read this line by line.

        Please fill out the following form so we may keep in touch.

        First name
        Edit
        Last name
        Edit
        E-mail
        Edit
        Submit button
        Clear form button.

        First example without DOM

        Read this line by line, and make sure this window with my message is
maximized before doing so.

        Link home, Link About Us, Link Blog, Link Shopt, Link Support, Link
Contact Us.

        Second example without DOM

        Please fill out the following form so we may keep in touch.

        First name Edit
        Last name Edit
        E-mail Edit, Submit: button, Clear form: Button.

        The difference

        As you can see in the above four illustrations, the first two
examples were rendered in such that each link/form control was on its own
line. This is why I asked you to read line by line, as doing a say-all, you
never would have most likely caught this. So, in other words, let's make
this really easy in plain english.

        Refer back to my very first example where we had the tabs which are
being represented as hyperlinks. As you recall, I said that they all went
horizontally from left to right across the top of the page.

        The problem is, DOM renders each element, for lack of better word,
as its own separate item. For this reason, each element is on its own
dedicated line of text. This is why each link is seeming to appear on its
own line by itself. The truth is, these links in all actuality are not on
multiple lines. They are actually expanding across the entire marginal width
of the screen. Are you starting to see where this could be a potential
problem?

        The second example is slightly less annoying, however the point
still stands in existance.

        We have a form. If you've ever seen how a form generally looks on a
print sheet of paper, you'll note that most form field labels such as first
name, last name, etc. go down the left side of the sheet of paper. Then,
horizontally aligned beside these field labels is the data value.

        For example, I might have a form printed out which I sign for a
Hippa release at my doctor's office. The first field may say, "Name". Out to
the immediate right of this will be either a line, or a box. It just depends
on how the form is designed, but the over all point is, there will be a
second column to the immediate right of where it said, "First name". This is
where I would write, "Christopher (Middle name) Gilland. Obviously, some of
you may know my middle name, but for privacy sake, I'm not including it
here.

        Given how the above physical print paper illustration is formatted,
as most forms online or not would be, does it really make sense to have the
form field, then the data directly below? No. It doesn't.

        Look at my above second example without DOM. Notice that the edit
box for all three fields is now actually rendering exactly as it would be
visually on the screen. The boxes are to the immediate right of the fields,
on the same line. Doesn't that just naturally feel better in your mind, and
make more sense? It definitely should to most people.

        Finally, we have both the submit, and the clear vbuttons.

        Does it make sense to you that they'd both be virtically stacked one
on top of the other? It certainly doesn't to me! In fact, to me, I'd even go
so far as to say it seems absolutely gross! Maybe I am more a visual
learner, but even if I wasn't, this doesn't logically compute. However, this
is exactly how DOM is rendering it... One button, and one element per line.

        Helping the sighted to guide you

        So why is this such a vbig deal? Call me a perfectionist, but let's
assume for just a moment that you're on the phone with a customer service
representative. They tell you to click the contact us tab located in the
upper right corner of the page. This would be a very poor website design,
and to any web debvs on here, please for the love of god, take this in
consideration! I can't tell you though how many times I've seen this. A web
designer will put a contact link at the top of the page which has a form to
e-mail them. Further down the page, they have another contact link within
the actual main body's content. The difference however is, in this second
link, though named identically the same thing, "Contact Us", this second
link doesn't direct the visiter to a contact form, but instead gives a phone
number, fax number, and possibly a postal address. Totally unacceptable in
my view! All this should be consolidated on the one contact page at the top
of the screen. This however still proves my point, and like I said, I've
seen this more times than I could count, and would gbe rich if I had a
dollar for every time I have. OK, so, you now arrow through the page, or do
an NVDA find to locate the Contact link. Heck, you might even do NVDA+F7 to
bring up your links list. And believe me, though I'm directing this more as
an NVDA thing, NVDA isn't the only screen reader which can use the DOM
method. JAWS, for example, is incredibly! and I do mean, incredibly!
notorious for this. Now, think about this a minute with this really
convoluted scanareo regarding the contact link. - How are you going to know
which contact link to press enter on to open the contact form, if you're in
DOM navigation? Exactly! - You won't. It would be hit and miss.

        Now, let's take this same situation without DOM mode.

        In this environment, for lack of better word, you would observe both
via audible speech, as well as via braille output if you have a display,
that the first "Contact us" link is on the far right edge of the screen.
You'd know this as you'd see the other links like Home, About us, Blog, etc.
on the same line but to the immediate left before it. Does this make sense
what I'm saying?

        The bottom line

        Regardless if you choose to use DOM or not is not something anyone
should decide for an individual. If you are coming from a screen reader like
JAWS as I have, you definitely may find turning off DOM navigation to be
extremely awquard at best. I'd even go as far as to say that it may drive
you absolutely crazy at first, and make your web browsing experience seem
dreadful. I would however seriously encourage people to at least give it a
try for a few days without DOM navigation. Inevitably, if you're not used to
it, it's going to take some getting used to, however if you're anything like
me, I feel that eventually, you will really start to see the benefits of not
using DOM. DOM is great in my opinion, don't get me wrong, but if you want,
or need in a mission critical environment to have an exact representation of
the content, then fact is fact, you're not going to get it with DOM mode,
end of the story, it's just not gonna happen, period. You might as well just
accept it. The other thing to also realize is, you are taking up unnecessary
memory/processor power to render things differently as an offline model.
Granted, OK, it may not be much, but that's not the point. It's still taking
up what to some would be considered as unnecessary resources.

        What are your thoughts?

        Do you use DOM? If not, I'd be interested in your reasons why not.

        Chris.


--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"

--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"



--
Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related material at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net Regardless of where you are in New Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you can use a copy of the NVDA screen reader on one of their computers. To find out which locations (or location) is near to you please visit http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries (Aotearoa People's Network Kaharoa). To find an NVDA certified expert near you, please visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified individuals from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA expert exam.


Re: The DOM Debate

Adriani Botez
 

The good thing about golden cursor is also the fact that it plays a sound when you reach the borders of the screen, comparable to table navigation when using ctrl + alt + arrow key. In golden cursor you use windows + nvda + arrow keys. You can then easily assess how far objects are from top, bottom, left or right edge.

Best
Adriani


Von meinem iPhone gesendet

Am 03.12.2017 um 20:48 schrieb Gene New Zealand <hurrikennyandopo@...>:

Hi

In short with golden cursor it lets you move the mouse around with  the arrow keys plus 2 others. Plus part of it also is when turned on it will tell you the pixel cordinates etc so you know where things are on the screen. This can be turned on and off.

It also lets you say in one of my scanner programs there were buttons  or parts i could not get to so for a example there might of been ones for scanning, ocring etc i could locate them then add like a hot point give it a name within that program i could do a few of them and then say the next time i went in where ever those buttons etc were marked i could bring up a list of those coordinates that were marked then press the enter key on it and the mouse would route straight to that position. I could do that to any of the ones marked in that program but also was not only limited to that program.

I think also you could restrict it to windows etc as well but never used that side of it.

With nvda you can move the mouse around physically and hear what is spoken below it but with golden cursor it takes it even further.

I now have the knfb reader software on the computers so the old scanner program is not used now as the knfb reader is accessible.

by the way i am not sure if it got changed but 2 of the directions for shortcuts were put around the wrong way. I would have to go back in to see if it was changed.

Gene nz

 
On 12/4/2017 2:35 AM, Christopher-Mark Gilland wrote:
You know... I heard about Golden Cursor, but never totally understood the concept of what it did exactly, even after reading it's description.
---
Christopher Gilland
Co-founder of Genuine Safe Haven Ministries
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, December 03, 2017 3:35 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

And I forgot to mention the addon golden cursor. It is incredibly good at presenting you the screen as it is. And it makes the learning process very enjoyable. However, these things can certainly be improved, as it is the case for almost everything. Nothing is 100% perfect.

Best
Adriani


Von meinem iPhone gesendet

Am 03.12.2017 um 09:26 schrieb Adriani Botez <adriani.botez@...>:

apart from the addon audiothemes 3d when needed, I am using for example the ultrabook Dell xps13. I aggree, it might a bit more expensive than acer or so. But the thing is that on this laptop the screen is also a touch sensitive surface. That means I can explore a website by moving the finger on the screen while working as usual with keyboard and mouse.


Best
Adriani

Von meinem iPhone gesendet

Am 03.12.2017 um 07:22 schrieb Christopher-Mark Gilland <clgilland07@...>:

Again:
 
I couldn't agree with you more! Thanks for your contribution to this thread.
---
Christopher Gilland
Co-founder of Genuine Safe Haven Ministries
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 8:28 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

Well, let‘s advance it a bit. As far as I understand the key discussion points, it is all focused on how sighted people present information to us (the link at the bottom on the right) and our ability to find it by the screen reader. But we need to present information to sighted people aswel. And here is the point. What if you have a sighted customer who searches something on a website and needs your help? You say, the link is called Contact. And the customer says, hm I cannot find it. Then you have to approximately know where it is located on the page.
 Another example is power point. If you exercise in learning structures, then you will be able to ilustrate things in a simple way. It is not easy to get into it, I aggree. But it is not the best solution to find a way to always avoid this. Because structuring is a very important skill.


Best
Adriani


Von meinem iPhone gesendet

Am 02.12.2017 um 21:19 schrieb Gene <gsasner@...>:

Your response to my message yesterday appeared to say that because of exceptions, what I was saying wasn't an adequate approach.  That may not have been what you meant.  But there is no way to account for all exceptions.  The best that can be done is to have a general understanding of how web pages are laid out so that, when someone says, as in your example, the link is on the right, that the blind person will know, if it matters in this particular case, that that means he will find the link in the bloc at the bottom of the page, as he sees it.  Also, the NVDA feature that allows you to see the screen as originally organized uses the phrase, when supported.  I don't know what that means or how many pages that means aren't shown as organized when this feature is on.  I hope we hear from a knowledgeable person in the area we are discussing. 
 
If I misunderstand your position, please clarify it.  Your example of two contact links yesterday appeared to blame reorganization for the problem.  I think the problem is caused by bad training.  If you know the structure of web pages and there are two contact links, the second one you get to using the find command will be in the bloc at the bottom of the web page in general and that is the one the person would use. Of course, there may be exceptions, but you can't accommodate all exceptions to make everything completely predictable in determining how a page is displayed..
 
You could use the show as on screen settting but that wouldn't necessarily make things easier or faster in any meaningful way.  Suppose the contact link is then shown to the blind person on the right side of the screen.  Then the blind person would, as I understand how this would work regarding find, use the first result, not the second.  But how is that easier?  It's just not repeating the search one time, a trivial use of time.  Beyond a certain point the user is responsible for dealing with various situations but if the user doesn't get proper training, the user can't assume the responsibility required because he doesn't even know what the problem is or what can be done.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 1:44 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

When ever did I say that I was disagreeing with you? The only thing that I disagreed about is your statement which I very likely have apparently misunderstood that all/most websites are laid out with the exact format you described. I'm not sure where the disconnect is occuring.
---
Christopher Gilland
Co-founder of Genuine Safe Haven Ministries
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Gene
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 1:57 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

If that is what you were trying to say, then why are you disagreeing with me?  Having a page be shown as a sighted person sees it isn't the important factor when working with sighted people.  it's knowing how a page is organized so that when  a sighted person says, the link is on the right, the blind person will know that on the right means the bloc of links he/she sees at the bottom of the page.  This link can be found with the find command just as easily either way and other navigation on the page may be easier.  Calling this the dom debate isn't accurate either because it implies that the dom is responsible for reorganization.  The dom doesn't require reorganization.  Reorganization is done by screen-readers by design, because it makes navigation easier in most contexts.  But the dom doesn't prefer one organization over another.  The dom is just a way of making screen-readers aware of where information is on the screen.  How it is organized is up to the screen-reader designer.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 12:39 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

Thank you! This precisely 100% what I was attempting to say initially.
---
Christopher Gilland
Co-founder of Genuine Safe Haven Ministries
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 12:41 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

For many many users it is important to know somehow the structure how information is being presented because they comunicate and work together  with sighted people. Yes, it is very important to find content for one self as fast as possible. But we should not forget to learn structures and so on.

Best
Adriani


Von meinem iPhone gesendet

Am 02.12.2017 um 18:07 schrieb JM Casey <crystallogic@...>:

Hi.

Not sure I really have anything constructive to contribute to this debate. I just wanted to say that whatever screen-reader I was using, I always use the find command, and always have. No tutorials needed. What could be simpler? There are pages I want to read through, and pages where I just want to get stuff done. This is often the fastest and most efficient way, and I feel like this would naturally occur to most users. It sounds like you are saying it doesn’t, and that surprises me – but I’ve not ever received much training for anything, as I always preferred to try things and find out for myself.

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: December 2, 2017 6:07 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

Nothing is perfect.  Search is a very underused and very effective feature that screen-readers offer and it is at times more effective than using other methods.  I didn't say to always use find and I didn't say to always explore web pages and I didn't say to repeatedly explore the same page when looking for the same thing.  Using find is not exploring the web page in the sense that you spend a lot of time looking in detail at the page.  At times, this is necessary.  It often isn't, and here are examples. 

If you are looking for an add to cart button, you can use the b command to move through buttons.  Depending on page layout, this may be faster than using search or it may be slower.  Why do you have to explore a page again every time?  You may have to explore a page, you may not.  Doing what I suggested, searching for a word like contact and repeating the search isn't exploring the page.  You are looking for a specific thing.  Also, there are many patterns that a lot of web pages follow.  if you want to listen to a radio station and you are on the site, if you search for the word "listen" from the top of the page, you are very likely to find a link with the word "listen" in it, such as "listen live."  What if a site has a link that says, clic, to listen or some such variation.  That's why I strongly advocate against using the links list on unfamiliar sites.  If a link has a word that is common for such links such as listen, it will often be the first word.  It won't always.  Search will find such a link.  The links list, if you move by first letter navigation, won't find it where you expect and you may waste time and effort looking through a page when one search for the word "listen" might well have found it. 

Contact is another example.  Almost every site that provides a way for you to contact someone, such as a letters editor, etc. will have the word contact as part of the link.  As in my previous example, contact will often be the first word.  Not always. 

The inadequate training  a lot of people get teaches movement by heading and how to use the skip blocs of links command.  But it doesn't anywhere nearly teach or emphasize using the find command and thus cheats blind people and makes it much more difficult for them to use sites where headings or other quick navigation techniques don't yield good results.  And there are times, such as I've discussed, when using other techniques isn't the best first approach because they often work but not always. 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 2:47 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

Agreed but many people tend to fall back on their memory of a page as even
if they did explore it at the start, to do so every time is a bit slow.
Of course some pages like Google web mail has some shortcuts, but to me I
find such things still sluggish to use.

Amazon seem to often have interesting variations on a theme where certain
buttons can be a link instead, presumably due to their attempts to get you
to buy other stuff when you selected a particular one. For the sighted this
looks obvious, but would you  actually  really want to explore the page
every time considering how busy their site is with rotating suggestions and
the like? I agree search is a good thing to use but I've been fooled more
than once by there being several buying choices all with add to basket
buttons for example.
 Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene" <gsasner@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 8:19 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate


And I wonder how much actual training material such as tutorials explains
this or does so to any extent.  Unless things have changed, and I havedn't
seen much discussion in quite some time, even small changes in a web site
causes mass confusion because so many people aren't taught to explore pages.
Just changing the download link to a download button caused a lot of
confusion when Send Space made that change.  I hardly noticed it when it
happened because I used the screen-reader search feature to find the word
"download."  I found the control just as easily and quickly either way.
Actually, the button is faster and easier because now I just type b once
from the top of the page to find it.  But to those who learn by rote, even
minute changes may lead to an inability to do something on a site.

Gene
----- Original Message -----
Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Ron Canazzi
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 12:35 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate


Hi Gene,

\

I have had bad experiences with TVI people.  One of them when asked if she
knew the basics of teaching JAWS said: "No, but I and my client will learn
it together."  That speaks volumes.






On 12/1/2017 11:07 AM, Gene wrote:

  Certainly, for those who want to use programs that are not completely
accessible, and that includes most somewhat demanding and more demanding
users, those are important things to learn.  But in this case, I think my
analysis points to a much deeper problem, the poor Internet instruction a
lot of blind people evidently get.  I wonder how much traning material
explains things such as I describe.  I don't know but I'm skeptical that it
is explained in a lot of material because of the kinds of problems and
questions people raise about using the Internet.

  Gene
  ----- Original Message -----

  From: Ron Canazzi
  Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 9:42 AM
  To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
  Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate


  Hi Gene,




  Long story short of your analysis: learn to use your screen reader's quick
navigation keys and other features.  This allows the reorganization and the
advantages of DOM to coexist.






  On 12/1/2017 6:44 AM, Gene wrote:

    If you know how web pages are actually organized, the contacts problem
and other such possible problems can be eliminated very easily.  We, blind
people,  see a lot of links moving down from the top of the page.  A sighted
person sees these running down the left side of the page in a column. Then
we see the main content below the links. A sighted person sees the content
toward the middle of the page, moving from left to right on the page.  Then
a blind user sees a lot of links in a block at the bottom of the page.  A
sighted person sees these links running down the right side of the page in
another column, in the same way as the links on the left side are seen.

    So a blind person sees a bloc of links at the top, main content below
the links then another block of links at the bottom.  A sighted person sees
links running down the left side, main content to the right of those links,
and on the right another block of links running down the page in a column.

    So, if you are using a screen-reader with the ridiculous word wrap
feature, turn it off if it isn't off.  then do a screen-reader search for
the word contact from the top of the page.  Repeat the search to see how
many contact links there are.  The one a sighted person describes as being
on the right is the one the blind person will see as the second one, if
there are only two and no more and there shouldn't be any more.  If there is
only one, there is, of course, no problem.  When you get to the last one, if
you repeat the search again, you will get an error message.  If you dismiss
the error message, you will still be on the link.  You won't lose your
place.

    You don't have to give up all the advantages of reorganization and
usually it is much better to leave reorganization on.

    Gene
    ----- Original Message -----

    From: Christopher-Mark Gilland
    Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 3:08 AM
    To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
    Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate


    Adriani,

    You make some extremely valid points which should be carefully
considered, yes. Thanks for your contribution to the thread, and fair enough
statements.
    ---
    Christopher Gilland
    Co-founder of Genuine Safe Haven Ministries

    http://www.gshministry.org
    (980) 500-9575
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Adriani Botez
      To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
      Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 3:58 AM
      Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate


      Hello,


      I an not using screen layout like in your second example due to
following reasons:
      - By navigating with down arrow link by link I can decide by myself
how fast things are being red since I can decide not to hear the whole link
label, but only let‘s say the first half of the word. I don‘t have to wait
until the last link on the tab is being announced
      - If I want to navigate link by link in screen layout, then I have to
press the ctrl key and the right arrow key (applies only for link bars like
you have described or for forms with many elements on one line). The problem
is that pressing ctrl + right arrow NVDA reads word by word and not link by
link or button by button. So I am navigating much slower through the content
      - When navigating by ctrl + right arrow through a link bar with 5
links to focus the last one, I don‘t know when the bar ends unless I have
listened to NVDA reading the whole bar before
      - There is the NVDA addon audiotheme 3d which gives me a screen
presentation by playing a short sound in my headfones exactly at the
position where the object is located on the screen.


      Best
      Adriani



      Von meinem iPhone gesendet

      Am 01.12.2017 um 09:20 schrieb Christopher-Mark Gilland
<clgilland07@...>:


        For those who may have a bit of a hearing impairment, let me make it
very clear. In my subject, I'm saying DOM, D O M, not balm, b A L M.
Although some may call DOM the balm. LOL! And here therefore lies the reason
for my post this morning. - I fully realize that this is somewhat a
subjective topic, and that everyone will have his or her own opinions on the
matter. It is therefore my hope, that you, the reader, have an open and
civil mind, and observe this question from all angles before making your
response statement on list. I do not want to see this grow to a heated war
debate. Anyone who would like to publish this on their website, or wherever
is welcome to do so as long as you give credit back to me.

        First off, what is DOM?

        DOM, Document Object Model, without getting too technical, is one
way in which assistive technology such as screen readers obtain information
from one's computer screen. When we load a website in our browser of choice,
for example, some screen readers use the DOM functionality to draw a
representation of the content on the screen.

        So, what does this mean to us non-techies?

        Put simply, though I am not particularly sure of the exact workflow
which occurs behind the scene, what I can tell you is this. Often times,
more than not, this approach requires the assistive technology sitting in
between the user and the web browser to redraw, as some would say, the
entire HTML content in completion. The reason that the word "redraw" is used
is because essentially, this is exactly what is happening.

        Once a website is loaded, a certain amount of memory is allocated
aside where the website in question may be rendered. There are a few
advantages to this, however there are also some huge setbacks.

        Beauty and the Beast

        One of the advantages which probably appears to be fairly obvious
from an outsider's perspective is that this will allow assistive technology
to use certain methods to gather the web content and then present the
material in an easy, robust, and sensably accessible manor. As the writer of
this post, let me assure all of you... I definitely see the side of this
argument.

        Here's a practical example of DOM.

        Let's assume, for just a moment, that you have loaded a website in
the browser of your preference, be it Firefox, Internet Explorer, Chrome,
etc.

        On this particular page, there are links which visually appear as
horizontal tabs extending across the top of the page. These tabs include the
following:

          a.. Home
          b.. About Us
          c.. Blog
          d.. Shop
          e.. Support
          f.. Contact Us

        To fully understand how this works, I encourage you to read the
following part of this e-mail by using your down arrow key, and reading line
by line individually. Here is what you will see. Remember before I go any
further with this, all of these links visually appear as one strip of
horizontal tabs running across the top of the web page.

        Link Home
        Link About Us
        Link Blog
        Link Shop
        Link Support
        Link Contact Us

        Here's another example.

        You have a short form on a website. This form asks for your first
name, your last name, and your e-mail address. Here's how DOM most likely
would reinterpret this. Again, please read this line by line.

        Please fill out the following form so we may keep in touch.

        First name
        Edit
        Last name
        Edit
        E-mail
        Edit
        Submit button
        Clear form button.

        First example without DOM

        Read this line by line, and make sure this window with my message is
maximized before doing so.

        Link home, Link About Us, Link Blog, Link Shopt, Link Support, Link
Contact Us.

        Second example without DOM

        Please fill out the following form so we may keep in touch.

        First name Edit
        Last name Edit
        E-mail Edit, Submit: button, Clear form: Button.

        The difference

        As you can see in the above four illustrations, the first two
examples were rendered in such that each link/form control was on its own
line. This is why I asked you to read line by line, as doing a say-all, you
never would have most likely caught this. So, in other words, let's make
this really easy in plain english.

        Refer back to my very first example where we had the tabs which are
being represented as hyperlinks. As you recall, I said that they all went
horizontally from left to right across the top of the page.

        The problem is, DOM renders each element, for lack of better word,
as its own separate item. For this reason, each element is on its own
dedicated line of text. This is why each link is seeming to appear on its
own line by itself. The truth is, these links in all actuality are not on
multiple lines. They are actually expanding across the entire marginal width
of the screen. Are you starting to see where this could be a potential
problem?

        The second example is slightly less annoying, however the point
still stands in existance.

        We have a form. If you've ever seen how a form generally looks on a
print sheet of paper, you'll note that most form field labels such as first
name, last name, etc. go down the left side of the sheet of paper. Then,
horizontally aligned beside these field labels is the data value.

        For example, I might have a form printed out which I sign for a
Hippa release at my doctor's office. The first field may say, "Name". Out to
the immediate right of this will be either a line, or a box. It just depends
on how the form is designed, but the over all point is, there will be a
second column to the immediate right of where it said, "First name". This is
where I would write, "Christopher (Middle name) Gilland. Obviously, some of
you may know my middle name, but for privacy sake, I'm not including it
here.

        Given how the above physical print paper illustration is formatted,
as most forms online or not would be, does it really make sense to have the
form field, then the data directly below? No. It doesn't.

        Look at my above second example without DOM. Notice that the edit
box for all three fields is now actually rendering exactly as it would be
visually on the screen. The boxes are to the immediate right of the fields,
on the same line. Doesn't that just naturally feel better in your mind, and
make more sense? It definitely should to most people.

        Finally, we have both the submit, and the clear vbuttons.

        Does it make sense to you that they'd both be virtically stacked one
on top of the other? It certainly doesn't to me! In fact, to me, I'd even go
so far as to say it seems absolutely gross! Maybe I am more a visual
learner, but even if I wasn't, this doesn't logically compute. However, this
is exactly how DOM is rendering it... One button, and one element per line.

        Helping the sighted to guide you

        So why is this such a vbig deal? Call me a perfectionist, but let's
assume for just a moment that you're on the phone with a customer service
representative. They tell you to click the contact us tab located in the
upper right corner of the page. This would be a very poor website design,
and to any web debvs on here, please for the love of god, take this in
consideration! I can't tell you though how many times I've seen this. A web
designer will put a contact link at the top of the page which has a form to
e-mail them. Further down the page, they have another contact link within
the actual main body's content. The difference however is, in this second
link, though named identically the same thing, "Contact Us", this second
link doesn't direct the visiter to a contact form, but instead gives a phone
number, fax number, and possibly a postal address. Totally unacceptable in
my view! All this should be consolidated on the one contact page at the top
of the screen. This however still proves my point, and like I said, I've
seen this more times than I could count, and would gbe rich if I had a
dollar for every time I have. OK, so, you now arrow through the page, or do
an NVDA find to locate the Contact link. Heck, you might even do NVDA+F7 to
bring up your links list. And believe me, though I'm directing this more as
an NVDA thing, NVDA isn't the only screen reader which can use the DOM
method. JAWS, for example, is incredibly! and I do mean, incredibly!
notorious for this. Now, think about this a minute with this really
convoluted scanareo regarding the contact link. - How are you going to know
which contact link to press enter on to open the contact form, if you're in
DOM navigation? Exactly! - You won't. It would be hit and miss.

        Now, let's take this same situation without DOM mode.

        In this environment, for lack of better word, you would observe both
via audible speech, as well as via braille output if you have a display,
that the first "Contact us" link is on the far right edge of the screen.
You'd know this as you'd see the other links like Home, About us, Blog, etc.
on the same line but to the immediate left before it. Does this make sense
what I'm saying?

        The bottom line

        Regardless if you choose to use DOM or not is not something anyone
should decide for an individual. If you are coming from a screen reader like
JAWS as I have, you definitely may find turning off DOM navigation to be
extremely awquard at best. I'd even go as far as to say that it may drive
you absolutely crazy at first, and make your web browsing experience seem
dreadful. I would however seriously encourage people to at least give it a
try for a few days without DOM navigation. Inevitably, if you're not used to
it, it's going to take some getting used to, however if you're anything like
me, I feel that eventually, you will really start to see the benefits of not
using DOM. DOM is great in my opinion, don't get me wrong, but if you want,
or need in a mission critical environment to have an exact representation of
the content, then fact is fact, you're not going to get it with DOM mode,
end of the story, it's just not gonna happen, period. You might as well just
accept it. The other thing to also realize is, you are taking up unnecessary
memory/processor power to render things differently as an offline model.
Granted, OK, it may not be much, but that's not the point. It's still taking
up what to some would be considered as unnecessary resources.

        What are your thoughts?

        Do you use DOM? If not, I'd be interested in your reasons why not.

        Chris.


--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"

--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"



--
Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related material at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net Regardless of where you are in New Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you can use a copy of the NVDA screen reader on one of their computers. To find out which locations (or location) is near to you please visit http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries (Aotearoa People's Network Kaharoa). To find an NVDA certified expert near you, please visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified individuals from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA expert exam.


Re: The DOM Debate

Gene New Zealand <hurrikennyandopo@...>
 

Hi

In short with golden cursor it lets you move the mouse around with  the arrow keys plus 2 others. Plus part of it also is when turned on it will tell you the pixel cordinates etc so you know where things are on the screen. This can be turned on and off.

It also lets you say in one of my scanner programs there were buttons  or parts i could not get to so for a example there might of been ones for scanning, ocring etc i could locate them then add like a hot point give it a name within that program i could do a few of them and then say the next time i went in where ever those buttons etc were marked i could bring up a list of those coordinates that were marked then press the enter key on it and the mouse would route straight to that position. I could do that to any of the ones marked in that program but also was not only limited to that program.

I think also you could restrict it to windows etc as well but never used that side of it.

With nvda you can move the mouse around physically and hear what is spoken below it but with golden cursor it takes it even further.

I now have the knfb reader software on the computers so the old scanner program is not used now as the knfb reader is accessible.

by the way i am not sure if it got changed but 2 of the directions for shortcuts were put around the wrong way. I would have to go back in to see if it was changed.

Gene nz

 

On 12/4/2017 2:35 AM, Christopher-Mark Gilland wrote:
You know... I heard about Golden Cursor, but never totally understood the concept of what it did exactly, even after reading it's description.
---
Christopher Gilland
Co-founder of Genuine Safe Haven Ministries
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, December 03, 2017 3:35 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

And I forgot to mention the addon golden cursor. It is incredibly good at presenting you the screen as it is. And it makes the learning process very enjoyable. However, these things can certainly be improved, as it is the case for almost everything. Nothing is 100% perfect.

Best
Adriani


Von meinem iPhone gesendet

Am 03.12.2017 um 09:26 schrieb Adriani Botez <adriani.botez@...>:

apart from the addon audiothemes 3d when needed, I am using for example the ultrabook Dell xps13. I aggree, it might a bit more expensive than acer or so. But the thing is that on this laptop the screen is also a touch sensitive surface. That means I can explore a website by moving the finger on the screen while working as usual with keyboard and mouse.


Best
Adriani

Von meinem iPhone gesendet

Am 03.12.2017 um 07:22 schrieb Christopher-Mark Gilland <clgilland07@...>:

Again:
 
I couldn't agree with you more! Thanks for your contribution to this thread.
---
Christopher Gilland
Co-founder of Genuine Safe Haven Ministries
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 8:28 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

Well, let‘s advance it a bit. As far as I understand the key discussion points, it is all focused on how sighted people present information to us (the link at the bottom on the right) and our ability to find it by the screen reader. But we need to present information to sighted people aswel. And here is the point. What if you have a sighted customer who searches something on a website and needs your help? You say, the link is called Contact. And the customer says, hm I cannot find it. Then you have to approximately know where it is located on the page.
 Another example is power point. If you exercise in learning structures, then you will be able to ilustrate things in a simple way. It is not easy to get into it, I aggree. But it is not the best solution to find a way to always avoid this. Because structuring is a very important skill.


Best
Adriani


Von meinem iPhone gesendet

Am 02.12.2017 um 21:19 schrieb Gene <gsasner@...>:

Your response to my message yesterday appeared to say that because of exceptions, what I was saying wasn't an adequate approach.  That may not have been what you meant.  But there is no way to account for all exceptions.  The best that can be done is to have a general understanding of how web pages are laid out so that, when someone says, as in your example, the link is on the right, that the blind person will know, if it matters in this particular case, that that means he will find the link in the bloc at the bottom of the page, as he sees it.  Also, the NVDA feature that allows you to see the screen as originally organized uses the phrase, when supported.  I don't know what that means or how many pages that means aren't shown as organized when this feature is on.  I hope we hear from a knowledgeable person in the area we are discussing. 
 
If I misunderstand your position, please clarify it.  Your example of two contact links yesterday appeared to blame reorganization for the problem.  I think the problem is caused by bad training.  If you know the structure of web pages and there are two contact links, the second one you get to using the find command will be in the bloc at the bottom of the web page in general and that is the one the person would use. Of course, there may be exceptions, but you can't accommodate all exceptions to make everything completely predictable in determining how a page is displayed..
 
You could use the show as on screen settting but that wouldn't necessarily make things easier or faster in any meaningful way.  Suppose the contact link is then shown to the blind person on the right side of the screen.  Then the blind person would, as I understand how this would work regarding find, use the first result, not the second.  But how is that easier?  It's just not repeating the search one time, a trivial use of time.  Beyond a certain point the user is responsible for dealing with various situations but if the user doesn't get proper training, the user can't assume the responsibility required because he doesn't even know what the problem is or what can be done.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 1:44 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

When ever did I say that I was disagreeing with you? The only thing that I disagreed about is your statement which I very likely have apparently misunderstood that all/most websites are laid out with the exact format you described. I'm not sure where the disconnect is occuring.
---
Christopher Gilland
Co-founder of Genuine Safe Haven Ministries
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Gene
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 1:57 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

If that is what you were trying to say, then why are you disagreeing with me?  Having a page be shown as a sighted person sees it isn't the important factor when working with sighted people.  it's knowing how a page is organized so that when  a sighted person says, the link is on the right, the blind person will know that on the right means the bloc of links he/she sees at the bottom of the page.  This link can be found with the find command just as easily either way and other navigation on the page may be easier.  Calling this the dom debate isn't accurate either because it implies that the dom is responsible for reorganization.  The dom doesn't require reorganization.  Reorganization is done by screen-readers by design, because it makes navigation easier in most contexts.  But the dom doesn't prefer one organization over another.  The dom is just a way of making screen-readers aware of where information is on the screen.  How it is organized is up to the screen-reader designer.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 12:39 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

Thank you! This precisely 100% what I was attempting to say initially.
---
Christopher Gilland
Co-founder of Genuine Safe Haven Ministries
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 12:41 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

For many many users it is important to know somehow the structure how information is being presented because they comunicate and work together  with sighted people. Yes, it is very important to find content for one self as fast as possible. But we should not forget to learn structures and so on.

Best
Adriani


Von meinem iPhone gesendet

Am 02.12.2017 um 18:07 schrieb JM Casey <crystallogic@...>:

Hi.

Not sure I really have anything constructive to contribute to this debate. I just wanted to say that whatever screen-reader I was using, I always use the find command, and always have. No tutorials needed. What could be simpler? There are pages I want to read through, and pages where I just want to get stuff done. This is often the fastest and most efficient way, and I feel like this would naturally occur to most users. It sounds like you are saying it doesn’t, and that surprises me – but I’ve not ever received much training for anything, as I always preferred to try things and find out for myself.

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: December 2, 2017 6:07 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

Nothing is perfect.  Search is a very underused and very effective feature that screen-readers offer and it is at times more effective than using other methods.  I didn't say to always use find and I didn't say to always explore web pages and I didn't say to repeatedly explore the same page when looking for the same thing.  Using find is not exploring the web page in the sense that you spend a lot of time looking in detail at the page.  At times, this is necessary.  It often isn't, and here are examples. 

If you are looking for an add to cart button, you can use the b command to move through buttons.  Depending on page layout, this may be faster than using search or it may be slower.  Why do you have to explore a page again every time?  You may have to explore a page, you may not.  Doing what I suggested, searching for a word like contact and repeating the search isn't exploring the page.  You are looking for a specific thing.  Also, there are many patterns that a lot of web pages follow.  if you want to listen to a radio station and you are on the site, if you search for the word "listen" from the top of the page, you are very likely to find a link with the word "listen" in it, such as "listen live."  What if a site has a link that says, clic, to listen or some such variation.  That's why I strongly advocate against using the links list on unfamiliar sites.  If a link has a word that is common for such links such as listen, it will often be the first word.  It won't always.  Search will find such a link.  The links list, if you move by first letter navigation, won't find it where you expect and you may waste time and effort looking through a page when one search for the word "listen" might well have found it. 

Contact is another example.  Almost every site that provides a way for you to contact someone, such as a letters editor, etc. will have the word contact as part of the link.  As in my previous example, contact will often be the first word.  Not always. 

The inadequate training  a lot of people get teaches movement by heading and how to use the skip blocs of links command.  But it doesn't anywhere nearly teach or emphasize using the find command and thus cheats blind people and makes it much more difficult for them to use sites where headings or other quick navigation techniques don't yield good results.  And there are times, such as I've discussed, when using other techniques isn't the best first approach because they often work but not always. 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 2:47 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

Agreed but many people tend to fall back on their memory of a page as even
if they did explore it at the start, to do so every time is a bit slow.
Of course some pages like Google web mail has some shortcuts, but to me I
find such things still sluggish to use.

Amazon seem to often have interesting variations on a theme where certain
buttons can be a link instead, presumably due to their attempts to get you
to buy other stuff when you selected a particular one. For the sighted this
looks obvious, but would you  actually  really want to explore the page
every time considering how busy their site is with rotating suggestions and
the like? I agree search is a good thing to use but I've been fooled more
than once by there being several buying choices all with add to basket
buttons for example.
 Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene" <gsasner@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 8:19 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate


And I wonder how much actual training material such as tutorials explains
this or does so to any extent.  Unless things have changed, and I havedn't
seen much discussion in quite some time, even small changes in a web site
causes mass confusion because so many people aren't taught to explore pages.
Just changing the download link to a download button caused a lot of
confusion when Send Space made that change.  I hardly noticed it when it
happened because I used the screen-reader search feature to find the word
"download."  I found the control just as easily and quickly either way.
Actually, the button is faster and easier because now I just type b once
from the top of the page to find it.  But to those who learn by rote, even
minute changes may lead to an inability to do something on a site.

Gene
----- Original Message -----
Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Ron Canazzi
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 12:35 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate


Hi Gene,

\

I have had bad experiences with TVI people.  One of them when asked if she
knew the basics of teaching JAWS said: "No, but I and my client will learn
it together."  That speaks volumes.






On 12/1/2017 11:07 AM, Gene wrote:

  Certainly, for those who want to use programs that are not completely
accessible, and that includes most somewhat demanding and more demanding
users, those are important things to learn.  But in this case, I think my
analysis points to a much deeper problem, the poor Internet instruction a
lot of blind people evidently get.  I wonder how much traning material
explains things such as I describe.  I don't know but I'm skeptical that it
is explained in a lot of material because of the kinds of problems and
questions people raise about using the Internet.

  Gene
  ----- Original Message -----

  From: Ron Canazzi
  Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 9:42 AM
  To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
  Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate


  Hi Gene,




  Long story short of your analysis: learn to use your screen reader's quick
navigation keys and other features.  This allows the reorganization and the
advantages of DOM to coexist.






  On 12/1/2017 6:44 AM, Gene wrote:

    If you know how web pages are actually organized, the contacts problem
and other such possible problems can be eliminated very easily.  We, blind
people,  see a lot of links moving down from the top of the page.  A sighted
person sees these running down the left side of the page in a column. Then
we see the main content below the links. A sighted person sees the content
toward the middle of the page, moving from left to right on the page.  Then
a blind user sees a lot of links in a block at the bottom of the page.  A
sighted person sees these links running down the right side of the page in
another column, in the same way as the links on the left side are seen.

    So a blind person sees a bloc of links at the top, main content below
the links then another block of links at the bottom.  A sighted person sees
links running down the left side, main content to the right of those links,
and on the right another block of links running down the page in a column.

    So, if you are using a screen-reader with the ridiculous word wrap
feature, turn it off if it isn't off.  then do a screen-reader search for
the word contact from the top of the page.  Repeat the search to see how
many contact links there are.  The one a sighted person describes as being
on the right is the one the blind person will see as the second one, if
there are only two and no more and there shouldn't be any more.  If there is
only one, there is, of course, no problem.  When you get to the last one, if
you repeat the search again, you will get an error message.  If you dismiss
the error message, you will still be on the link.  You won't lose your
place.

    You don't have to give up all the advantages of reorganization and
usually it is much better to leave reorganization on.

    Gene
    ----- Original Message -----

    From: Christopher-Mark Gilland
    Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 3:08 AM
    To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
    Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate


    Adriani,

    You make some extremely valid points which should be carefully
considered, yes. Thanks for your contribution to the thread, and fair enough
statements.
    ---
    Christopher Gilland
    Co-founder of Genuine Safe Haven Ministries

    http://www.gshministry.org
    (980) 500-9575
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Adriani Botez
      To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
      Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 3:58 AM
      Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate


      Hello,


      I an not using screen layout like in your second example due to
following reasons:
      - By navigating with down arrow link by link I can decide by myself
how fast things are being red since I can decide not to hear the whole link
label, but only let‘s say the first half of the word. I don‘t have to wait
until the last link on the tab is being announced
      - If I want to navigate link by link in screen layout, then I have to
press the ctrl key and the right arrow key (applies only for link bars like
you have described or for forms with many elements on one line). The problem
is that pressing ctrl + right arrow NVDA reads word by word and not link by
link or button by button. So I am navigating much slower through the content
      - When navigating by ctrl + right arrow through a link bar with 5
links to focus the last one, I don‘t know when the bar ends unless I have
listened to NVDA reading the whole bar before
      - There is the NVDA addon audiotheme 3d which gives me a screen
presentation by playing a short sound in my headfones exactly at the
position where the object is located on the screen.


      Best
      Adriani



      Von meinem iPhone gesendet

      Am 01.12.2017 um 09:20 schrieb Christopher-Mark Gilland
<clgilland07@...>:


        For those who may have a bit of a hearing impairment, let me make it
very clear. In my subject, I'm saying DOM, D O M, not balm, b A L M.
Although some may call DOM the balm. LOL! And here therefore lies the reason
for my post this morning. - I fully realize that this is somewhat a
subjective topic, and that everyone will have his or her own opinions on the
matter. It is therefore my hope, that you, the reader, have an open and
civil mind, and observe this question from all angles before making your
response statement on list. I do not want to see this grow to a heated war
debate. Anyone who would like to publish this on their website, or wherever
is welcome to do so as long as you give credit back to me.

        First off, what is DOM?

        DOM, Document Object Model, without getting too technical, is one
way in which assistive technology such as screen readers obtain information
from one's computer screen. When we load a website in our browser of choice,
for example, some screen readers use the DOM functionality to draw a
representation of the content on the screen.

        So, what does this mean to us non-techies?

        Put simply, though I am not particularly sure of the exact workflow
which occurs behind the scene, what I can tell you is this. Often times,
more than not, this approach requires the assistive technology sitting in
between the user and the web browser to redraw, as some would say, the
entire HTML content in completion. The reason that the word "redraw" is used
is because essentially, this is exactly what is happening.

        Once a website is loaded, a certain amount of memory is allocated
aside where the website in question may be rendered. There are a few
advantages to this, however there are also some huge setbacks.

        Beauty and the Beast

        One of the advantages which probably appears to be fairly obvious
from an outsider's perspective is that this will allow assistive technology
to use certain methods to gather the web content and then present the
material in an easy, robust, and sensably accessible manor. As the writer of
this post, let me assure all of you... I definitely see the side of this
argument.

        Here's a practical example of DOM.

        Let's assume, for just a moment, that you have loaded a website in
the browser of your preference, be it Firefox, Internet Explorer, Chrome,
etc.

        On this particular page, there are links which visually appear as
horizontal tabs extending across the top of the page. These tabs include the
following:

          a.. Home
          b.. About Us
          c.. Blog
          d.. Shop
          e.. Support
          f.. Contact Us

        To fully understand how this works, I encourage you to read the
following part of this e-mail by using your down arrow key, and reading line
by line individually. Here is what you will see. Remember before I go any
further with this, all of these links visually appear as one strip of
horizontal tabs running across the top of the web page.

        Link Home
        Link About Us
        Link Blog
        Link Shop
        Link Support
        Link Contact Us

        Here's another example.

        You have a short form on a website. This form asks for your first
name, your last name, and your e-mail address. Here's how DOM most likely
would reinterpret this. Again, please read this line by line.

        Please fill out the following form so we may keep in touch.

        First name
        Edit
        Last name
        Edit
        E-mail
        Edit
        Submit button
        Clear form button.

        First example without DOM

        Read this line by line, and make sure this window with my message is
maximized before doing so.

        Link home, Link About Us, Link Blog, Link Shopt, Link Support, Link
Contact Us.

        Second example without DOM

        Please fill out the following form so we may keep in touch.

        First name Edit
        Last name Edit
        E-mail Edit, Submit: button, Clear form: Button.

        The difference

        As you can see in the above four illustrations, the first two
examples were rendered in such that each link/form control was on its own
line. This is why I asked you to read line by line, as doing a say-all, you
never would have most likely caught this. So, in other words, let's make
this really easy in plain english.

        Refer back to my very first example where we had the tabs which are
being represented as hyperlinks. As you recall, I said that they all went
horizontally from left to right across the top of the page.

        The problem is, DOM renders each element, for lack of better word,
as its own separate item. For this reason, each element is on its own
dedicated line of text. This is why each link is seeming to appear on its
own line by itself. The truth is, these links in all actuality are not on
multiple lines. They are actually expanding across the entire marginal width
of the screen. Are you starting to see where this could be a potential
problem?

        The second example is slightly less annoying, however the point
still stands in existance.

        We have a form. If you've ever seen how a form generally looks on a
print sheet of paper, you'll note that most form field labels such as first
name, last name, etc. go down the left side of the sheet of paper. Then,
horizontally aligned beside these field labels is the data value.

        For example, I might have a form printed out which I sign for a
Hippa release at my doctor's office. The first field may say, "Name". Out to
the immediate right of this will be either a line, or a box. It just depends
on how the form is designed, but the over all point is, there will be a
second column to the immediate right of where it said, "First name". This is
where I would write, "Christopher (Middle name) Gilland. Obviously, some of
you may know my middle name, but for privacy sake, I'm not including it
here.

        Given how the above physical print paper illustration is formatted,
as most forms online or not would be, does it really make sense to have the
form field, then the data directly below? No. It doesn't.

        Look at my above second example without DOM. Notice that the edit
box for all three fields is now actually rendering exactly as it would be
visually on the screen. The boxes are to the immediate right of the fields,
on the same line. Doesn't that just naturally feel better in your mind, and
make more sense? It definitely should to most people.

        Finally, we have both the submit, and the clear vbuttons.

        Does it make sense to you that they'd both be virtically stacked one
on top of the other? It certainly doesn't to me! In fact, to me, I'd even go
so far as to say it seems absolutely gross! Maybe I am more a visual
learner, but even if I wasn't, this doesn't logically compute. However, this
is exactly how DOM is rendering it... One button, and one element per line.

        Helping the sighted to guide you

        So why is this such a vbig deal? Call me a perfectionist, but let's
assume for just a moment that you're on the phone with a customer service
representative. They tell you to click the contact us tab located in the
upper right corner of the page. This would be a very poor website design,
and to any web debvs on here, please for the love of god, take this in
consideration! I can't tell you though how many times I've seen this. A web
designer will put a contact link at the top of the page which has a form to
e-mail them. Further down the page, they have another contact link within
the actual main body's content. The difference however is, in this second
link, though named identically the same thing, "Contact Us", this second
link doesn't direct the visiter to a contact form, but instead gives a phone
number, fax number, and possibly a postal address. Totally unacceptable in
my view! All this should be consolidated on the one contact page at the top
of the screen. This however still proves my point, and like I said, I've
seen this more times than I could count, and would gbe rich if I had a
dollar for every time I have. OK, so, you now arrow through the page, or do
an NVDA find to locate the Contact link. Heck, you might even do NVDA+F7 to
bring up your links list. And believe me, though I'm directing this more as
an NVDA thing, NVDA isn't the only screen reader which can use the DOM
method. JAWS, for example, is incredibly! and I do mean, incredibly!
notorious for this. Now, think about this a minute with this really
convoluted scanareo regarding the contact link. - How are you going to know
which contact link to press enter on to open the contact form, if you're in
DOM navigation? Exactly! - You won't. It would be hit and miss.

        Now, let's take this same situation without DOM mode.

        In this environment, for lack of better word, you would observe both
via audible speech, as well as via braille output if you have a display,
that the first "Contact us" link is on the far right edge of the screen.
You'd know this as you'd see the other links like Home, About us, Blog, etc.
on the same line but to the immediate left before it. Does this make sense
what I'm saying?

        The bottom line

        Regardless if you choose to use DOM or not is not something anyone
should decide for an individual. If you are coming from a screen reader like
JAWS as I have, you definitely may find turning off DOM navigation to be
extremely awquard at best. I'd even go as far as to say that it may drive
you absolutely crazy at first, and make your web browsing experience seem
dreadful. I would however seriously encourage people to at least give it a
try for a few days without DOM navigation. Inevitably, if you're not used to
it, it's going to take some getting used to, however if you're anything like
me, I feel that eventually, you will really start to see the benefits of not
using DOM. DOM is great in my opinion, don't get me wrong, but if you want,
or need in a mission critical environment to have an exact representation of
the content, then fact is fact, you're not going to get it with DOM mode,
end of the story, it's just not gonna happen, period. You might as well just
accept it. The other thing to also realize is, you are taking up unnecessary
memory/processor power to render things differently as an offline model.
Granted, OK, it may not be much, but that's not the point. It's still taking
up what to some would be considered as unnecessary resources.

        What are your thoughts?

        Do you use DOM? If not, I'd be interested in your reasons why not.

        Chris.


--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"

--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"



--
Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related material at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net Regardless of where you are in New Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you can use a copy of the NVDA screen reader on one of their computers. To find out which locations (or location) is near to you please visit http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries (Aotearoa People's Network Kaharoa). To find an NVDA certified expert near you, please visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified individuals from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA expert exam.


Re: setting up your win ten computer

Arlene
 

Thank you. I’ll go look at it!

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene New Zealand
Sent: December-03-17 12:33 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] setting up your win ten computer

 

Hi

 

I just located one for windows 10 on what to do. It can be found on the following page and is step by step at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net/nvda%20tutorials%20for%20windows%2010.html

The heading you are looking for is To sign in to User Account automatically

 

I hav3e all of my computer just go into windows  with out having to sign in.

 

I am sure the same written directions should work on 7 and 8.

 

Hope it helps

 

Gene nz

 

 

On 12/3/2017 6:41 PM, Arlene wrote:

Okay, I’ll go take a look. Cause I heard a friend saying you can’t escape it. That was what I thought. I’ll find the instructions.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene New Zealand
Sent: December-02-17 8:37 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] setting up your win ten computer

 

Hi

 

Is it already setup? and you had to make a account? if so it can be removed after windows has been setup. Just remember what you put in as the details. Have a look on the nvda audio tutorials page down the bottom of it it shows you how to do it i think there might also be written instructions. Even though they were for windows 7 and 8 it does the same on windows 10.

 

 

If you are doing a new install you have to do it as a local account it is hard to do with narrator it may or may not see it but even if you do setup up a account it can be removed as mentioned.

 

http://www.accessibilitycentral.net/nvda%20audio%20tutorials.html

the heading is called how to remove the windows 8 log on screen it looks as though it is only audio unless there is one for 7 just under it some where. But am sure it works on 10 etc.

 

Gene nz

 

 

On 12/3/2017 4:46 PM, Arlene wrote:

Hi list: When you set up your win ten computer, can you bypass adding a password to start the windows login?  I know with 7 you can. If you can avoid the password for win ten. How does one do it? Do you just say you want it? Then when you get into your computer. Can you delete it? or are you stuck with it?  I hope I’m making scense. Thanks and have a good day. 

 

--

Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related material at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net Regardless of where you are in New Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you can use a copy of the NVDA screen reader on one of their computers. To find out which locations (or location) is near to you please visit http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries (Aotearoa People's Network Kaharoa). To find an NVDA certified expert near you, please visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified individuals from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA expert exam.

 

--

Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related material at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net Regardless of where you are in New Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you can use a copy of the NVDA screen reader on one of their computers. To find out which locations (or location) is near to you please visit http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries (Aotearoa People's Network Kaharoa). To find an NVDA certified expert near you, please visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified individuals from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA expert exam.


Re: setting up your win ten computer

Arlene
 

Hello: When you hit next and not type a password. Will it let you by pass it?

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Hareth
Sent: December-02-17 11:15 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] setting up your win ten computer

when it asks you to type a password for your windows user account just don't type any, leave it blank, and hit the next button.

On 12/3/17, Arlene <nedster66@gmail.com> wrote:
Okay, I'll go take a look. Cause I heard a friend saying you can't
escape it. That was what I thought. I'll find the instructions.



From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
Gene New Zealand
Sent: December-02-17 8:37 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] setting up your win ten computer



Hi



Is it already setup? and you had to make a account? if so it can be
removed after windows has been setup. Just remember what you put in as the details.
Have a look on the nvda audio tutorials page down the bottom of it it
shows you how to do it i think there might also be written
instructions. Even though they were for windows 7 and 8 it does the same on windows 10.





If you are doing a new install you have to do it as a local account it
is hard to do with narrator it may or may not see it but even if you
do setup up a account it can be removed as mentioned.



http://www.accessibilitycentral.net/nvda%20audio%20tutorials.html

the heading is called how to remove the windows 8 log on screen it
looks as though it is only audio unless there is one for 7 just under it some where.
But am sure it works on 10 etc.



Gene nz





On 12/3/2017 4:46 PM, Arlene wrote:

Hi list: When you set up your win ten computer, can you bypass adding
a password to start the windows login? I know with 7 you can. If you
can avoid the password for win ten. How does one do it? Do you just
say you want it? Then when you get into your computer. Can you delete
it? or are you stuck with it? I hope I'm making scense. Thanks and
have a good day.



--
Image NVDA
certified expert

Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related
material at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net Regardless of where
you are in New Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you can
use a copy of the NVDA screen reader on one of their computers. To
find out which locations (or
location) is near to you please visit
http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries
(Aotearoa People's Network Kaharoa). To find an NVDA certified expert
near you, please visit the following link
https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The certification page contains
the official list of NVDA certified individuals from around the world,
who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA expert exam.




Re: OT: selecting a new laptop is more difficult than before

Gene
 

I don't follow these things in any systematic way and I'm not a tech, but I'm skeptical that suddenly, programs will be so demanding that all these four or five year old machines will be obsolete.  Things just don't change that fast, and what functions could a browser possibly perform that is going to make them require that much power, or a word processor, etc.  there may be prohgrams as time goes by that require enormous amounts of power for home use, things change and things may use more power to an extent if it is available.  But for years, we've had 64 bit Windows.  Most programs are still 32 bit.  they don't have to be 64 bit and program designers don't arbitrarily spend time designing new and more powerful versions of programs just because processors are more powerful.  I don't spend lots of extra money because, maybe, in a few years, I'll have to buy something new based on nothing but speculation when I've never seen such patterns in the past.  Why should such patterns suddenly change in the next few years? 
 
Gene

From: Rui Fontes
Sent: Sunday, December 03, 2017 10:44 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] OT: selecting a new laptop is more difficult than before

Hello!


Às 10:52 de 03/12/2017, Tyler Wood escreveu:
Saying all this, I might be paranoid. I might be delusional. I’m sure moors law will quickly find its breaking point with the cilicone of these processors. It’s just something you want to consider when buying a new machine – yes, that celleron processor with 2 gb of ram may look nice now for $200. A year or two later and you’ll be wishing you saved up the money or spent the money to get even the i5 with 256 gb of storage and 8 gb ram.

Or why not change computer every each two or three years, instead of spending a lot of moneyeach every 5 or 6 years?

I have used a ASUS Transformer Book T100 by two and hal years, and now I am using a chinese similar PC with a better processor, a Intel(R) Core(TM) m3-7Y30 CPU @ 1.00GHz, with Turbo to 2.6GHz, and 4Gb of RAM instead of 2Gb from ASUS...

Probably, I will replace it in 2019... But, between both machines, I spent only US$700...
For 4 or 5 years, I think it is good value for the money... 

Rui


Re: OT: selecting a new laptop is more difficult than before

Rui Fontes
 

Hello!


Às 10:52 de 03/12/2017, Tyler Wood escreveu:
Saying all this, I might be paranoid. I might be delusional. I’m sure moors law will quickly find its breaking point with the cilicone of these processors. It’s just something you want to consider when buying a new machine – yes, that celleron processor with 2 gb of ram may look nice now for $200. A year or two later and you’ll be wishing you saved up the money or spent the money to get even the i5 with 256 gb of storage and 8 gb ram.

Or why not change computer every each two or three years, instead of spending a lot of moneyeach every 5 or 6 years?

I have used a ASUS Transformer Book T100 by two and hal years, and now I am using a chinese similar PC with a better processor, a Intel(R) Core(TM) m3-7Y30 CPU @ 1.00GHz, with Turbo to 2.6GHz, and 4Gb of RAM instead of 2Gb from ASUS...

Probably, I will replace it in 2019... But, between both machines, I spent only US$700...
For 4 or 5 years, I think it is good value for the money... 

Rui


Re: OT: selecting a new laptop is more difficult than before

Gene
 

Bootup time can be reduced to an almost nonexistent issue if people would use the tools Microsoft has made available since xp, reliably to almost eliminate the need to reboot, those features being sleep or hibernate.  I reboot my machines off and on to clear the memory and not have performance degredation caused by going too long between boots.  People may want to experiment to see how long their machines may go without rebooting.  I can use my machines for about five or seven days, maybe longer, before I start to have problems.  Others may need to reboot much more often.  I don't do anythingt such as registry defrags, even if they would speed bootup up, because I so seldom boot up.  Why should I when I can put a machine in sleep, and resume from sleep in two or three seconds?  Hibernate takes longer to resume from but it's much faster than booting up.  Windows 10 has fast boot and, if you use it, I don't know if there is any reason to use hibernate or sleep in a Windows 10 machine, but with all the emphasis on boot times for so many years, why have so few people used these Microsoft provided solutions that have been available and worked well for over a decade?
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, December 03, 2017 5:42 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] OT: selecting a new laptop is more difficult than before

Yes I was told this as well. I think its just that the memory can wear out.
Not a lot seems to be known about this, but it can happen. One of the
Martian Rovers has started to exhibit this issue, and a service call to that
particular installation is not going to be possible!
 It seems mostly its flash ram ie ram that is non volatile, the refreshed
memory takes current and has a refresh cycle that keeps the 1s and 0s as
they were. I guess flash settings can just leak away over time.


I do on average every 6 months or so do a registry defrag and clean, as this
seems to still impact boot up time. The other parts seem not to care.
 Mine is a Samsung 250 meg one.
 Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
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----- Original Message -----
From: "The Gamages" <james.gamage@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, December 03, 2017 10:35 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] OT: selecting a new laptop is more difficult than before


Hello,
Regarding SSDs, as I understand it, there is a slight issue with these in
that some memory can become un writable, it can still be read, but nothing
further can be writtten into it.
I realise that this can take a long time to happen and, if the drive is a
large capacity, it may never be an issue.
I am only raising this point because I don’t fully understand the
consequences of this.
I was told by a computer engineer that it is not a good idea to de fragment
a solid state drive for this reason, it can make some memory un writable if
it is done regularly and is not really necessary  on this sort of drive.

Comments please, even if you shoot me down in flames,[smile]..

Best Regards, Jim.

From: Tyler Wood
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 6:43 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] OT: selecting a new laptop is more difficult than before

Keep in mind AMD has just released their ryzen mobile processors, so that
should be interesting. Similar to Intel, it will be Ryzen 3 = intel i3,
ryzen 5 = intel i5, ryzen 7 = intel i7.

In these modern days, hard drives truly limit the speed of a computer. If
you can afford it, even if it takes a little longer to save up, go for
something with a solid state drive. You’ll never go back again. Even a cheap
windows tablet with a 64 gb ssd is going to beat the socks off of that huge
i5 with a 1 tb spinning hard drives in booting up, general snappyness around
windows. Web browsing not so much but even so the solid state drive is what
makes or breaks a computer and is why you can get by with a core i3 or equal
from AMD.

Sean has a good point about soundcards these days, too. And even with
headphones on it can still be painful with speech – so try and play with
them in the store using narrator.





From: Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: December 1, 2017 4:29 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] OT: selecting a new laptop is more difficult than before



Is there a n equivelance chart somewhere for what Intel and AMD systems are

roughly the same as each other?

Brian



bglists@...

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----- Original Message -----

From: "Don H" <lmddh50@...>

To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>

Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2017 6:23 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] OT: selecting a new laptop is more difficult than before





>I think it is important to get at least a Intel I3 processor or its AMD

>equal.  If you can't afford a higher Intel processor you will find fast AMD

>processors cheaper and just as good as Intel.

>

> On 11/30/2017 12:16 PM, Governor staten wrote:

>> One thing is for sure. You need at least 6 or 8 gb of ram. Netbooks no

>> longer cut it, at all. You could possibly find some refurbished computers

>> on Amazon.

>>

>>

>> I have an Asus netbook with 4 gb of ram (not expansible), 500 gb hard

>> drive, 2.16 ghz dual-core Intel Celeron processor. Graphics and audio are

>> built-in. I need to get a new computer, as well. I'm interested in this

>> discussion for that reason.

>>

>>

>>

>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

>>

>>

>> On 11/30/2017 11:26 AM, Deborah Armstrong wrote:

>>> ** This was also cross-posted to Cavi-discuss ***

>>> As a screen reader user, I'm finding selecting a new laptop is more

>>> difficult than ever before. I'm very curious to see what others think,

>>> so please post your thoughts.

>>> It used to be that I didn't feel I needed a super fast computer, because

>>> I wasn't editing video. And nowadays if you look at reviews of laptops,

>>> you'll see that people who edit photos, use CAD systems, create art or

>>> engage in heavy gaming need fast machines. But for those who just surf

>>> the web, read email and do some light word processing, reviewers

>>> maintain that a slower and cheaper laptop will work just fine. In fact,

>>> reviews of chromebooks are often mixed in with reviews of inexpensive

>>> Windows laptops for just that reason.

>>> In 2012 my Acer netbook (An AO-756) was the fastest ultraportable I

>>> could buy for under $500. Its processor, a 1.4GHZ Intel Celeron 877 was

>>> a dual core from the Sandy Bridge family -- the slowest one in that

>>> family, but it wasn't a much slower Atom. It had a reasonable fast 500GB

>>> hard drive. I added 8GB of RAM making it even more useful at running

>>> multiple tasks efficiently. I could use Word, Excel and Outlook without

>>> latency and of course I did a lot of web surfing. Compared to the

>>> computers at work, it was a bit slower, but like the reviewers said, it

>>> didn't matter, since I didn't do computation-heavy tasks at home.

>>> What's changed today might best be covered in this post:

>>> https://www.marcozehe.de/2017/09/29/rethinking-web-accessibility-on-windows/

>>> which discusses how screen readers access the web. Today, if I have to

>>> work with a dynamic website, my little ACER is unbearably slow, despite

>>> my having carefully maintained it so it doesn't run unnecessary

>>> background tasks, and so that Windows is regularly fully refreshed.

>>> I am convinced the problem is not so much that the PC is slow, but that

>>> the screen reader has become a palace built on a shack's foundation. It

>>> needs everything it can squeeze out of the processor to handle the new,

>>> dynamic web. Seems both NVDA and JAWS fail miserably on slower

>>> processors.

>>> But if a task does not depend on a screen reader, the machine is still

>>> fairly fast. For example, when I OCR something in Kurzweil 1000, the

>>> laptop is just as fast as my much more powerful desktop computers at

>>> work. And running something like Handbrake is indeed slower on my laptop

>>> but not so slow it cannot be used. A video that takes an hour to convert

>>> on my desktop at work might take fifteen extra minutes on the laptop.

>>> Handbrake is often used as an informal benchmarking tool.

>>> But where instant responsiveness counts, my Netbook falls short. I

>>> expect to hear something when I press a key. Often, today, I don't --

>>> seems like I am always waiting for the screen reader to pull itself

>>> together and find the focus, or cope with a dynamic partial page

>>> refresh, or the next column in the spreadsheet, or read my next email in

>>> Thunderbird.

>>> The Acer actually got fractionally faster when I upgraded to Windows 10,

>>> but even so, I mostly wait after pressing a key to hear something read

>>> back to me.

>>> My work computers which run Core i7 Pentiums respond immediately, even

>>> though they are saddled with far more background tasks required by my

>>> job.

>>> So if I were to trust reviews, this claim that for the kinds of things I

>>> do at home on the laptop I don't need a very powerful machine, I'd buy

>>> something with an Atom processor, a 128GB SSD and 2GB of RAM. Clearly

>>> that would result in a machine that's even slower than my existing

>>> laptop. Plus, it would have a quarter of the storage!

>>> I guess the dilemma I'm struggling with here is how to avoid spending a

>>> fortune and still get an ultraportable that has no latency when I use a

>>> screen reader.

>>> What do others think?

>>> --Debee

>>

>

>

>

>















Re: The DOM Debate

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

Conceptually though Golden Cursor is quite hard to figure out. I figured out that it can sometimes help but as others have said if you asked me to explain it completely, its not easy. Anyone care to make a stab at it? It probably needs a new thread or subject line. It might mean we can all learn more of what it can do.
Focus highlight is also useful if you need to try to get sighted help for anything as quite often they just say, I cannot tell where you are on the screen.
Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Adriani Botez" <adriani.botez@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, December 03, 2017 8:35 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate


And I forgot to mention the addon golden cursor. It is incredibly good at presenting you the screen as it is. And it makes the learning process very enjoyable. However, these things can certainly be improved, as it is the case for almost everything. Nothing is 100% perfect.

Best
Adriani


Von meinem iPhone gesendet

Am 03.12.2017 um 09:26 schrieb Adriani Botez <adriani.botez@gmail.com>:

apart from the addon audiothemes 3d when needed, I am using for example the ultrabook Dell xps13. I aggree, it might a bit more expensive than acer or so. But the thing is that on this laptop the screen is also a touch sensitive surface. That means I can explore a website by moving the finger on the screen while working as usual with keyboard and mouse.


Best
Adriani

Von meinem iPhone gesendet

Am 03.12.2017 um 07:22 schrieb Christopher-Mark Gilland <clgilland07@gmail.com>:

Again:

I couldn't agree with you more! Thanks for your contribution to this thread.
---
Christopher Gilland
Co-founder of Genuine Safe Haven Ministries

http://www.gshministry.org
(980) 500-9575
----- Original Message -----
From: Adriani Botez
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 8:28 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

Well, let‘s advance it a bit. As far as I understand the key discussion points, it is all focused on how sighted people present information to us (the link at the bottom on the right) and our ability to find it by the screen reader. But we need to present information to sighted people aswel. And here is the point. What if you have a sighted customer who searches something on a website and needs your help? You say, the link is called Contact. And the customer says, hm I cannot find it. Then you have to approximately know where it is located on the page.
Another example is power point. If you exercise in learning structures, then you will be able to ilustrate things in a simple way. It is not easy to get into it, I aggree. But it is not the best solution to find a way to always avoid this. Because structuring is a very important skill.


Best
Adriani


Von meinem iPhone gesendet

Am 02.12.2017 um 21:19 schrieb Gene <gsasner@ripco.com>:

Your response to my message yesterday appeared to say that because of exceptions, what I was saying wasn't an adequate approach. That may not have been what you meant. But there is no way to account for all exceptions. The best that can be done is to have a general understanding of how web pages are laid out so that, when someone says, as in your example, the link is on the right, that the blind person will know, if it matters in this particular case, that that means he will find the link in the bloc at the bottom of the page, as he sees it. Also, the NVDA feature that allows you to see the screen as originally organized uses the phrase, when supported. I don't know what that means or how many pages that means aren't shown as organized when this feature is on. I hope we hear from a knowledgeable person in the area we are discussing.

If I misunderstand your position, please clarify it. Your example of two contact links yesterday appeared to blame reorganization for the problem. I think the problem is caused by bad training. If you know the structure of web pages and there are two contact links, the second one you get to using the find command will be in the bloc at the bottom of the web page in general and that is the one the person would use. Of course, there may be exceptions, but you can't accommodate all exceptions to make everything completely predictable in determining how a page is displayed..

You could use the show as on screen settting but that wouldn't necessarily make things easier or faster in any meaningful way. Suppose the contact link is then shown to the blind person on the right side of the screen. Then the blind person would, as I understand how this would work regarding find, use the first result, not the second. But how is that easier? It's just not repeating the search one time, a trivial use of time. Beyond a certain point the user is responsible for dealing with various situations but if the user doesn't get proper training, the user can't assume the responsibility required because he doesn't even know what the problem is or what can be done.

Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Christopher-Mark Gilland
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 1:44 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

When ever did I say that I was disagreeing with you? The only thing that I disagreed about is your statement which I very likely have apparently misunderstood that all/most websites are laid out with the exact format you described. I'm not sure where the disconnect is occuring.
---
Christopher Gilland
Co-founder of Genuine Safe Haven Ministries

http://www.gshministry.org
(980) 500-9575
----- Original Message -----
From: Gene
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 1:57 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

If that is what you were trying to say, then why are you disagreeing with me? Having a page be shown as a sighted person sees it isn't the important factor when working with sighted people. it's knowing how a page is organized so that when a sighted person says, the link is on the right, the blind person will know that on the right means the bloc of links he/she sees at the bottom of the page. This link can be found with the find command just as easily either way and other navigation on the page may be easier. Calling this the dom debate isn't accurate either because it implies that the dom is responsible for reorganization. The dom doesn't require reorganization. Reorganization is done by screen-readers by design, because it makes navigation easier in most contexts. But the dom doesn't prefer one organization over another. The dom is just a way of making screen-readers aware of where information is on the screen. How it is organized is up to the screen-reader designer.

Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Christopher-Mark Gilland
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 12:39 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

Thank you! This precisely 100% what I was attempting to say initially.
---
Christopher Gilland
Co-founder of Genuine Safe Haven Ministries

http://www.gshministry.org
(980) 500-9575
----- Original Message -----
From: Adriani Botez
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 12:41 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

For many many users it is important to know somehow the structure how information is being presented because they comunicate and work together with sighted people. Yes, it is very important to find content for one self as fast as possible. But we should not forget to learn structures and so on.

Best
Adriani


Von meinem iPhone gesendet

Am 02.12.2017 um 18:07 schrieb JM Casey <crystallogic@ca.inter.net>:

Hi.
Not sure I really have anything constructive to contribute to this debate. I just wanted to say that whatever screen-reader I was using, I always use the find command, and always have. No tutorials needed. What could be simpler? There are pages I want to read through, and pages where I just want to get stuff done. This is often the fastest and most efficient way, and I feel like this would naturally occur to most users. It sounds like you are saying it doesn’t, and that surprises me – but I’ve not ever received much training for anything, as I always preferred to try things and find out for myself.
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: December 2, 2017 6:07 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate
Nothing is perfect. Search is a very underused and very effective feature that screen-readers offer and it is at times more effective than using other methods. I didn't say to always use find and I didn't say to always explore web pages and I didn't say to repeatedly explore the same page when looking for the same thing. Using find is not exploring the web page in the sense that you spend a lot of time looking in detail at the page. At times, this is necessary. It often isn't, and here are examples.
If you are looking for an add to cart button, you can use the b command to move through buttons. Depending on page layout, this may be faster than using search or it may be slower. Why do you have to explore a page again every time? You may have to explore a page, you may not. Doing what I suggested, searching for a word like contact and repeating the search isn't exploring the page. You are looking for a specific thing. Also, there are many patterns that a lot of web pages follow. if you want to listen to a radio station and you are on the site, if you search for the word "listen" from the top of the page, you are very likely to find a link with the word "listen" in it, such as "listen live." What if a site has a link that says, clic, to listen or some such variation. That's why I strongly advocate against using the links list on unfamiliar sites. If a link has a word that is common for such links such as listen, it will often be the first word. It won't always. Search will find such a link. The links list, if you move by first letter navigation, won't find it where you expect and you may waste time and effort looking through a page when one search for the word "listen" might well have found it.
Contact is another example. Almost every site that provides a way for you to contact someone, such as a letters editor, etc. will have the word contact as part of the link. As in my previous example, contact will often be the first word. Not always.
The inadequate training a lot of people get teaches movement by heading and how to use the skip blocs of links command. But it doesn't anywhere nearly teach or emphasize using the find command and thus cheats blind people and makes it much more difficult for them to use sites where headings or other quick navigation techniques don't yield good results. And there are times, such as I've discussed, when using other techniques isn't the best first approach because they often work but not always.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 2:47 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate
Agreed but many people tend to fall back on their memory of a page as even
if they did explore it at the start, to do so every time is a bit slow.
Of course some pages like Google web mail has some shortcuts, but to me I
find such things still sluggish to use.

Amazon seem to often have interesting variations on a theme where certain
buttons can be a link instead, presumably due to their attempts to get you
to buy other stuff when you selected a particular one. For the sighted this
looks obvious, but would you actually really want to explore the page
every time considering how busy their site is with rotating suggestions and
the like? I agree search is a good thing to use but I've been fooled more
than once by there being several buying choices all with add to basket
buttons for example.
Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene" <gsasner@ripco.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 8:19 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate


And I wonder how much actual training material such as tutorials explains
this or does so to any extent. Unless things have changed, and I havedn't
seen much discussion in quite some time, even small changes in a web site
causes mass confusion because so many people aren't taught to explore pages.
Just changing the download link to a download button caused a lot of
confusion when Send Space made that change. I hardly noticed it when it
happened because I used the screen-reader search feature to find the word
"download." I found the control just as easily and quickly either way.
Actually, the button is faster and easier because now I just type b once
from the top of the page to find it. But to those who learn by rote, even
minute changes may lead to an inability to do something on a site.

Gene
----- Original Message -----
Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Ron Canazzi
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 12:35 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate


Hi Gene,

\

I have had bad experiences with TVI people. One of them when asked if she
knew the basics of teaching JAWS said: "No, but I and my client will learn
it together." That speaks volumes.






On 12/1/2017 11:07 AM, Gene wrote:

Certainly, for those who want to use programs that are not completely
accessible, and that includes most somewhat demanding and more demanding
users, those are important things to learn. But in this case, I think my
analysis points to a much deeper problem, the poor Internet instruction a
lot of blind people evidently get. I wonder how much traning material
explains things such as I describe. I don't know but I'm skeptical that it
is explained in a lot of material because of the kinds of problems and
questions people raise about using the Internet.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Ron Canazzi
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 9:42 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate


Hi Gene,




Long story short of your analysis: learn to use your screen reader's quick
navigation keys and other features. This allows the reorganization and the
advantages of DOM to coexist.






On 12/1/2017 6:44 AM, Gene wrote:

If you know how web pages are actually organized, the contacts problem
and other such possible problems can be eliminated very easily. We, blind
people, see a lot of links moving down from the top of the page. A sighted
person sees these running down the left side of the page in a column. Then
we see the main content below the links. A sighted person sees the content
toward the middle of the page, moving from left to right on the page. Then
a blind user sees a lot of links in a block at the bottom of the page. A
sighted person sees these links running down the right side of the page in
another column, in the same way as the links on the left side are seen.

So a blind person sees a bloc of links at the top, main content below
the links then another block of links at the bottom. A sighted person sees
links running down the left side, main content to the right of those links,
and on the right another block of links running down the page in a column.

So, if you are using a screen-reader with the ridiculous word wrap
feature, turn it off if it isn't off. then do a screen-reader search for
the word contact from the top of the page. Repeat the search to see how
many contact links there are. The one a sighted person describes as being
on the right is the one the blind person will see as the second one, if
there are only two and no more and there shouldn't be any more. If there is
only one, there is, of course, no problem. When you get to the last one, if
you repeat the search again, you will get an error message. If you dismiss
the error message, you will still be on the link. You won't lose your
place.

You don't have to give up all the advantages of reorganization and
usually it is much better to leave reorganization on.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Christopher-Mark Gilland
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 3:08 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate


Adriani,

You make some extremely valid points which should be carefully
considered, yes. Thanks for your contribution to the thread, and fair enough
statements.
---
Christopher Gilland
Co-founder of Genuine Safe Haven Ministries

http://www.gshministry.org
(980) 500-9575
----- Original Message -----
From: Adriani Botez
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 3:58 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate


Hello,


I an not using screen layout like in your second example due to
following reasons:
- By navigating with down arrow link by link I can decide by myself
how fast things are being red since I can decide not to hear the whole link
label, but only let‘s say the first half of the word. I don‘t have to wait
until the last link on the tab is being announced
- If I want to navigate link by link in screen layout, then I have to
press the ctrl key and the right arrow key (applies only for link bars like
you have described or for forms with many elements on one line). The problem
is that pressing ctrl + right arrow NVDA reads word by word and not link by
link or button by button. So I am navigating much slower through the content
- When navigating by ctrl + right arrow through a link bar with 5
links to focus the last one, I don‘t know when the bar ends unless I have
listened to NVDA reading the whole bar before
- There is the NVDA addon audiotheme 3d which gives me a screen
presentation by playing a short sound in my headfones exactly at the
position where the object is located on the screen.


Best
Adriani



Von meinem iPhone gesendet

Am 01.12.2017 um 09:20 schrieb Christopher-Mark Gilland
<clgilland07@gmail.com>:


For those who may have a bit of a hearing impairment, let me make it
very clear. In my subject, I'm saying DOM, D O M, not balm, b A L M.
Although some may call DOM the balm. LOL! And here therefore lies the reason
for my post this morning. - I fully realize that this is somewhat a
subjective topic, and that everyone will have his or her own opinions on the
matter. It is therefore my hope, that you, the reader, have an open and
civil mind, and observe this question from all angles before making your
response statement on list. I do not want to see this grow to a heated war
debate. Anyone who would like to publish this on their website, or wherever
is welcome to do so as long as you give credit back to me.

First off, what is DOM?

DOM, Document Object Model, without getting too technical, is one
way in which assistive technology such as screen readers obtain information
from one's computer screen. When we load a website in our browser of choice,
for example, some screen readers use the DOM functionality to draw a
representation of the content on the screen.

So, what does this mean to us non-techies?

Put simply, though I am not particularly sure of the exact workflow
which occurs behind the scene, what I can tell you is this. Often times,
more than not, this approach requires the assistive technology sitting in
between the user and the web browser to redraw, as some would say, the
entire HTML content in completion. The reason that the word "redraw" is used
is because essentially, this is exactly what is happening.

Once a website is loaded, a certain amount of memory is allocated
aside where the website in question may be rendered. There are a few
advantages to this, however there are also some huge setbacks.

Beauty and the Beast

One of the advantages which probably appears to be fairly obvious
from an outsider's perspective is that this will allow assistive technology
to use certain methods to gather the web content and then present the
material in an easy, robust, and sensably accessible manor. As the writer of
this post, let me assure all of you... I definitely see the side of this
argument.

Here's a practical example of DOM.

Let's assume, for just a moment, that you have loaded a website in
the browser of your preference, be it Firefox, Internet Explorer, Chrome,
etc.

On this particular page, there are links which visually appear as
horizontal tabs extending across the top of the page. These tabs include the
following:

a.. Home
b.. About Us
c.. Blog
d.. Shop
e.. Support
f.. Contact Us

To fully understand how this works, I encourage you to read the
following part of this e-mail by using your down arrow key, and reading line
by line individually. Here is what you will see. Remember before I go any
further with this, all of these links visually appear as one strip of
horizontal tabs running across the top of the web page.

Link Home
Link About Us
Link Blog
Link Shop
Link Support
Link Contact Us

Here's another example.

You have a short form on a website. This form asks for your first
name, your last name, and your e-mail address. Here's how DOM most likely
would reinterpret this. Again, please read this line by line.

Please fill out the following form so we may keep in touch.

First name
Edit
Last name
Edit
E-mail
Edit
Submit button
Clear form button.

First example without DOM

Read this line by line, and make sure this window with my message is
maximized before doing so.

Link home, Link About Us, Link Blog, Link Shopt, Link Support, Link
Contact Us.

Second example without DOM

Please fill out the following form so we may keep in touch.

First name Edit
Last name Edit
E-mail Edit, Submit: button, Clear form: Button.

The difference

As you can see in the above four illustrations, the first two
examples were rendered in such that each link/form control was on its own
line. This is why I asked you to read line by line, as doing a say-all, you
never would have most likely caught this. So, in other words, let's make
this really easy in plain english.

Refer back to my very first example where we had the tabs which are
being represented as hyperlinks. As you recall, I said that they all went
horizontally from left to right across the top of the page.

The problem is, DOM renders each element, for lack of better word,
as its own separate item. For this reason, each element is on its own
dedicated line of text. This is why each link is seeming to appear on its
own line by itself. The truth is, these links in all actuality are not on
multiple lines. They are actually expanding across the entire marginal width
of the screen. Are you starting to see where this could be a potential
problem?

The second example is slightly less annoying, however the point
still stands in existance.

We have a form. If you've ever seen how a form generally looks on a
print sheet of paper, you'll note that most form field labels such as first
name, last name, etc. go down the left side of the sheet of paper. Then,
horizontally aligned beside these field labels is the data value.

For example, I might have a form printed out which I sign for a
Hippa release at my doctor's office. The first field may say, "Name". Out to
the immediate right of this will be either a line, or a box. It just depends
on how the form is designed, but the over all point is, there will be a
second column to the immediate right of where it said, "First name". This is
where I would write, "Christopher (Middle name) Gilland. Obviously, some of
you may know my middle name, but for privacy sake, I'm not including it
here.

Given how the above physical print paper illustration is formatted,
as most forms online or not would be, does it really make sense to have the
form field, then the data directly below? No. It doesn't.

Look at my above second example without DOM. Notice that the edit
box for all three fields is now actually rendering exactly as it would be
visually on the screen. The boxes are to the immediate right of the fields,
on the same line. Doesn't that just naturally feel better in your mind, and
make more sense? It definitely should to most people.

Finally, we have both the submit, and the clear vbuttons.

Does it make sense to you that they'd both be virtically stacked one
on top of the other? It certainly doesn't to me! In fact, to me, I'd even go
so far as to say it seems absolutely gross! Maybe I am more a visual
learner, but even if I wasn't, this doesn't logically compute. However, this
is exactly how DOM is rendering it... One button, and one element per line.

Helping the sighted to guide you

So why is this such a vbig deal? Call me a perfectionist, but let's
assume for just a moment that you're on the phone with a customer service
representative. They tell you to click the contact us tab located in the
upper right corner of the page. This would be a very poor website design,
and to any web debvs on here, please for the love of god, take this in
consideration! I can't tell you though how many times I've seen this. A web
designer will put a contact link at the top of the page which has a form to
e-mail them. Further down the page, they have another contact link within
the actual main body's content. The difference however is, in this second
link, though named identically the same thing, "Contact Us", this second
link doesn't direct the visiter to a contact form, but instead gives a phone
number, fax number, and possibly a postal address. Totally unacceptable in
my view! All this should be consolidated on the one contact page at the top
of the screen. This however still proves my point, and like I said, I've
seen this more times than I could count, and would gbe rich if I had a
dollar for every time I have. OK, so, you now arrow through the page, or do
an NVDA find to locate the Contact link. Heck, you might even do NVDA+F7 to
bring up your links list. And believe me, though I'm directing this more as
an NVDA thing, NVDA isn't the only screen reader which can use the DOM
method. JAWS, for example, is incredibly! and I do mean, incredibly!
notorious for this. Now, think about this a minute with this really
convoluted scanareo regarding the contact link. - How are you going to know
which contact link to press enter on to open the contact form, if you're in
DOM navigation? Exactly! - You won't. It would be hit and miss.

Now, let's take this same situation without DOM mode.

In this environment, for lack of better word, you would observe both
via audible speech, as well as via braille output if you have a display,
that the first "Contact us" link is on the far right edge of the screen.
You'd know this as you'd see the other links like Home, About us, Blog, etc.
on the same line but to the immediate left before it. Does this make sense
what I'm saying?

The bottom line

Regardless if you choose to use DOM or not is not something anyone
should decide for an individual. If you are coming from a screen reader like
JAWS as I have, you definitely may find turning off DOM navigation to be
extremely awquard at best. I'd even go as far as to say that it may drive
you absolutely crazy at first, and make your web browsing experience seem
dreadful. I would however seriously encourage people to at least give it a
try for a few days without DOM navigation. Inevitably, if you're not used to
it, it's going to take some getting used to, however if you're anything like
me, I feel that eventually, you will really start to see the benefits of not
using DOM. DOM is great in my opinion, don't get me wrong, but if you want,
or need in a mission critical environment to have an exact representation of
the content, then fact is fact, you're not going to get it with DOM mode,
end of the story, it's just not gonna happen, period. You might as well just
accept it. The other thing to also realize is, you are taking up unnecessary
memory/processor power to render things differently as an offline model.
Granted, OK, it may not be much, but that's not the point. It's still taking
up what to some would be considered as unnecessary resources.

What are your thoughts?

Do you use DOM? If not, I'd be interested in your reasons why not.

Chris.


--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"

--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"



Re: Table nav with the control, alt, and arrows is gone

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

But funny things do happen to all of us. I suspect some of the more obscure issues can never be solved as the interactions are just too complicated

One that I know many have had that even go back to XP days is the sudden disappearance of some menus being spoken.
It normally starts with context menus and the nvda type menus for example. The only cure seems to be a complete windows reboot.
I have my suspicions that some pieces of software at some point leak away from their allotted bit of memory and corrupt something vital. I'm pretty certain that the old 32 bit Goldwave can do this under some conditions, but its by no means the only culprit, Liive mail is another. Its very odd that when such oddities occur, you have either run or are running one of those suspected bits of software. There are others, but I'm sure we all have some suspects.

This is just an example of course and under normal use things tend to work, but Murphy's law applies to computers as much as it does to most other things in my experience.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.

----- Original Message -----
From: "erik burggraaf" <erik@erik-burggraaf.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, December 03, 2017 3:04 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Table nav with the control, alt, and arrows is gone


Thanks all table nav is back this morning, I woke up and tried it, and it
works. No explanation whatsoever.

This computer I am working on is a very low-end system. I got it to use as
a Cloud Server, and for that, it works just fine. Unfortunately, strange
things happen when I try to repurpose it for other things. I think there's
just not enough under the hood for even the most basic multitasking.

Best,

Erik


On December 2, 2017 5:37:53 PM "Gene" <gsasner@ripco.com> wrote:

You won't lose anything if you use the commands I explained in another message.

Gene


From: Andre
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 4:09 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Table nav with the control, alt, and arrows is gone


Have you tried restoring the factory defaults? Of course, you'd lose all
your previous configurations but, it could get you back to what you want.
Perhaps there's a way to save your current configuration for later
restoration.


-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of erik
burggraaf
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 2:56 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Table nav with the control, alt, and arrows is gone

Hi all, What did I do? I was looking at a table intensive website when
suddenly pressing control alt and the arrows stopped working. I restarted
and went to another site, and still no joy.

I must have hit a toggle that turned the feature off, but I've been touring
through the preferences and can't find it. Of course, I have my
preferences set to save automatically, on exit, so restarting really
semented the change now that I stop and think about it.

Any help appreciated.

Erik







Re: Table nav with the control, alt, and arrows is gone

erik burggraaf <erik@...>
 

Thanks all table nav is back this morning, I woke up and tried it, and it works. No explanation whatsoever.

This computer I am working on is a very low-end system. I got it to use as a Cloud Server, and for that, it works just fine. Unfortunately, strange things happen when I try to repurpose it for other things. I think there's just not enough under the hood for even the most basic multitasking.

Best,

Erik

On December 2, 2017 5:37:53 PM "Gene" <gsasner@...> wrote:

You won't lose anything if you use the commands I explained in another message.
 
Gene

From: Andre
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 4:09 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Table nav with the control, alt, and arrows is gone

Have you tried restoring the factory defaults? Of course, you'd lose all
your previous configurations but, it could get you back to what you want.
Perhaps there's a way to save your current configuration for later
restoration.


-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of erik
burggraaf
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 2:56 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Table nav with the control, alt, and arrows is gone

Hi all,  What did I do?  I was looking at a table intensive website when
suddenly pressing control alt and the arrows stopped working.  I restarted
and went to another site, and still no joy.

I must have hit a toggle that turned the feature off, but I've been touring
through the preferences and can't find it.  Of course, I have my
preferences set to save automatically, on exit, so restarting really
semented the change now that I stop and think about it.

Any help appreciated.

Erik








Re: OT: selecting a new laptop is more difficult than before

Gene
 

At some point, perhaps as early as Windows 7, Windows won't even let you defragment SSD drives, as I recall. 
 
On another subject related to SSD drives, I consider sweeping statements such as, these days, everyone should have SSD drives to be far too prescriptive and overgeneral.  If you do things where speed matters, copying lots of large files, converting lots of large files, doing a lot of recording of long works and exporting the recording to a compressed format such as MP3, and other uses I haven't though of while at the moment, then it would make sense.  but if you mainly do things like word processing, web browsing, and other typical uses, I don't consider it important.  there are some people who just want everything to be very fast, they don't want programs to take one or two seconds to open, they want a program to open almost instantly.  If they want to spend the money for emotional satisfaction and indulgence, fine, but not everyone wants or needs hotrods, whetgher in computers, cars, or anywhere else. 
 
There may be another time when having an SSD drive might be important, others may wish to comment.  If you have a laptop, and are going to use it under conditions where it will be jostled and jolted somewhat severely or severely while in use, such as driving over rather rough or very rough roads, then I would think an SSD would be a good idea or  important. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----

Sent: Sunday, December 03, 2017 4:42 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] OT: selecting a new laptop is more difficult than before

I would be very interested if you could post some links to the information
about SSDs becoming unwriteable.

Regarding defragmenting an SSD - there is absolutely no point.

The whole purpose of defragmenting a traditional spinning hard disk was to get
all the parts of a single file together, instead of being spread (fragmented)
across the drive, which happens when small files are deleted and then larger
ones are written into the gaps afterwards.  Having the entire file together in
one place is much more efficient for reading it later than having it spread
around the disk (because it takes time for the mechanical heads to go and find
all the different parts).

With an SSD, accessing one part is just as efficient as any other - nothing
needs to move to get to the next part, so fragmented files are no less efficient
to read than complete ones.


Antony.

On Sunday 03 December 2017 at 11:35:19, The Gamages wrote:

> Hello,
> Regarding SSDs, as I understand it, there is a slight issue with these in
> that some memory can become un writable, it can still be read, but nothing
> further can be writtten into it.
> I realise that this can take a long time to happen and, if the drive is a
> large capacity, it may never be an issue.
> I am only raising this point because I don’t fully understand the
> consequences of this.
> I was told by a computer engineer that it is not a good idea to de fragment
> a solid state drive for this reason, it can make some memory un writable if
> it is done regularly and is not really necessary  on this sort of drive.
>
> Comments please, even if you shoot me down in flames,[smile]..
>
> Best Regards, Jim.
>
> From: Tyler Wood
> Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 6:43 PM
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
> Subject: Re: [nvda] OT: selecting a new laptop is more difficult than
> before
>
> Keep in mind AMD has just released their ryzen mobile processors, so that
> should be interesting. Similar to Intel, it will be Ryzen 3 = intel i3,
> ryzen 5 = intel i5, ryzen 7 = intel i7.
>
> In these modern days, hard drives truly limit the speed of a computer. If
> you can afford it, even if it takes a little longer to save up, go for
> something with a solid state drive. You’ll never go back again. Even a
> cheap windows tablet with a 64 gb ssd is going to beat the socks off of
> that huge i5 with a 1 tb spinning hard drives in booting up, general
> snappyness around windows. Web browsing not so much but even so the solid
> state drive is what makes or breaks a computer and is why you can get by
> with a core i3 or equal from AMD.
>
> Sean has a good point about soundcards these days, too. And even with
> headphones on it can still be painful with speech – so try and play with
> them in the store using narrator.

--
"In fact I wanted to be John Cleese and it took me some time to realise that
the job was already taken."

 - Douglas Adams

                                                   Please reply to the list;
                                                         please *don't* CC me.




Re: The DOM Debate

Christopher-Mark Gilland <clgilland07@...>
 


You know... I heard about Golden Cursor, but never totally understood the concept of what it did exactly, even after reading it's description.
---
Christopher Gilland
Co-founder of Genuine Safe Haven Ministries
 

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, December 03, 2017 3:35 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

And I forgot to mention the addon golden cursor. It is incredibly good at presenting you the screen as it is. And it makes the learning process very enjoyable. However, these things can certainly be improved, as it is the case for almost everything. Nothing is 100% perfect.

Best
Adriani


Von meinem iPhone gesendet

Am 03.12.2017 um 09:26 schrieb Adriani Botez <adriani.botez@...>:

apart from the addon audiothemes 3d when needed, I am using for example the ultrabook Dell xps13. I aggree, it might a bit more expensive than acer or so. But the thing is that on this laptop the screen is also a touch sensitive surface. That means I can explore a website by moving the finger on the screen while working as usual with keyboard and mouse.


Best
Adriani

Von meinem iPhone gesendet

Am 03.12.2017 um 07:22 schrieb Christopher-Mark Gilland <clgilland07@...>:

Again:
 
I couldn't agree with you more! Thanks for your contribution to this thread.
---
Christopher Gilland
Co-founder of Genuine Safe Haven Ministries
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 8:28 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

Well, let‘s advance it a bit. As far as I understand the key discussion points, it is all focused on how sighted people present information to us (the link at the bottom on the right) and our ability to find it by the screen reader. But we need to present information to sighted people aswel. And here is the point. What if you have a sighted customer who searches something on a website and needs your help? You say, the link is called Contact. And the customer says, hm I cannot find it. Then you have to approximately know where it is located on the page.
 Another example is power point. If you exercise in learning structures, then you will be able to ilustrate things in a simple way. It is not easy to get into it, I aggree. But it is not the best solution to find a way to always avoid this. Because structuring is a very important skill.


Best
Adriani


Von meinem iPhone gesendet

Am 02.12.2017 um 21:19 schrieb Gene <gsasner@...>:

Your response to my message yesterday appeared to say that because of exceptions, what I was saying wasn't an adequate approach.  That may not have been what you meant.  But there is no way to account for all exceptions.  The best that can be done is to have a general understanding of how web pages are laid out so that, when someone says, as in your example, the link is on the right, that the blind person will know, if it matters in this particular case, that that means he will find the link in the bloc at the bottom of the page, as he sees it.  Also, the NVDA feature that allows you to see the screen as originally organized uses the phrase, when supported.  I don't know what that means or how many pages that means aren't shown as organized when this feature is on.  I hope we hear from a knowledgeable person in the area we are discussing. 
 
If I misunderstand your position, please clarify it.  Your example of two contact links yesterday appeared to blame reorganization for the problem.  I think the problem is caused by bad training.  If you know the structure of web pages and there are two contact links, the second one you get to using the find command will be in the bloc at the bottom of the web page in general and that is the one the person would use. Of course, there may be exceptions, but you can't accommodate all exceptions to make everything completely predictable in determining how a page is displayed..
 
You could use the show as on screen settting but that wouldn't necessarily make things easier or faster in any meaningful way.  Suppose the contact link is then shown to the blind person on the right side of the screen.  Then the blind person would, as I understand how this would work regarding find, use the first result, not the second.  But how is that easier?  It's just not repeating the search one time, a trivial use of time.  Beyond a certain point the user is responsible for dealing with various situations but if the user doesn't get proper training, the user can't assume the responsibility required because he doesn't even know what the problem is or what can be done.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 1:44 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

When ever did I say that I was disagreeing with you? The only thing that I disagreed about is your statement which I very likely have apparently misunderstood that all/most websites are laid out with the exact format you described. I'm not sure where the disconnect is occuring.
---
Christopher Gilland
Co-founder of Genuine Safe Haven Ministries
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Gene
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 1:57 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

If that is what you were trying to say, then why are you disagreeing with me?  Having a page be shown as a sighted person sees it isn't the important factor when working with sighted people.  it's knowing how a page is organized so that when  a sighted person says, the link is on the right, the blind person will know that on the right means the bloc of links he/she sees at the bottom of the page.  This link can be found with the find command just as easily either way and other navigation on the page may be easier.  Calling this the dom debate isn't accurate either because it implies that the dom is responsible for reorganization.  The dom doesn't require reorganization.  Reorganization is done by screen-readers by design, because it makes navigation easier in most contexts.  But the dom doesn't prefer one organization over another.  The dom is just a way of making screen-readers aware of where information is on the screen.  How it is organized is up to the screen-reader designer.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 12:39 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

Thank you! This precisely 100% what I was attempting to say initially.
---
Christopher Gilland
Co-founder of Genuine Safe Haven Ministries
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 12:41 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

For many many users it is important to know somehow the structure how information is being presented because they comunicate and work together  with sighted people. Yes, it is very important to find content for one self as fast as possible. But we should not forget to learn structures and so on.

Best
Adriani


Von meinem iPhone gesendet

Am 02.12.2017 um 18:07 schrieb JM Casey <crystallogic@...>:

Hi.

Not sure I really have anything constructive to contribute to this debate. I just wanted to say that whatever screen-reader I was using, I always use the find command, and always have. No tutorials needed. What could be simpler? There are pages I want to read through, and pages where I just want to get stuff done. This is often the fastest and most efficient way, and I feel like this would naturally occur to most users. It sounds like you are saying it doesn’t, and that surprises me – but I’ve not ever received much training for anything, as I always preferred to try things and find out for myself.

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: December 2, 2017 6:07 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

Nothing is perfect.  Search is a very underused and very effective feature that screen-readers offer and it is at times more effective than using other methods.  I didn't say to always use find and I didn't say to always explore web pages and I didn't say to repeatedly explore the same page when looking for the same thing.  Using find is not exploring the web page in the sense that you spend a lot of time looking in detail at the page.  At times, this is necessary.  It often isn't, and here are examples. 

If you are looking for an add to cart button, you can use the b command to move through buttons.  Depending on page layout, this may be faster than using search or it may be slower.  Why do you have to explore a page again every time?  You may have to explore a page, you may not.  Doing what I suggested, searching for a word like contact and repeating the search isn't exploring the page.  You are looking for a specific thing.  Also, there are many patterns that a lot of web pages follow.  if you want to listen to a radio station and you are on the site, if you search for the word "listen" from the top of the page, you are very likely to find a link with the word "listen" in it, such as "listen live."  What if a site has a link that says, clic, to listen or some such variation.  That's why I strongly advocate against using the links list on unfamiliar sites.  If a link has a word that is common for such links such as listen, it will often be the first word.  It won't always.  Search will find such a link.  The links list, if you move by first letter navigation, won't find it where you expect and you may waste time and effort looking through a page when one search for the word "listen" might well have found it. 

Contact is another example.  Almost every site that provides a way for you to contact someone, such as a letters editor, etc. will have the word contact as part of the link.  As in my previous example, contact will often be the first word.  Not always. 

The inadequate training  a lot of people get teaches movement by heading and how to use the skip blocs of links command.  But it doesn't anywhere nearly teach or emphasize using the find command and thus cheats blind people and makes it much more difficult for them to use sites where headings or other quick navigation techniques don't yield good results.  And there are times, such as I've discussed, when using other techniques isn't the best first approach because they often work but not always. 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 2:47 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

Agreed but many people tend to fall back on their memory of a page as even
if they did explore it at the start, to do so every time is a bit slow.
Of course some pages like Google web mail has some shortcuts, but to me I
find such things still sluggish to use.

Amazon seem to often have interesting variations on a theme where certain
buttons can be a link instead, presumably due to their attempts to get you
to buy other stuff when you selected a particular one. For the sighted this
looks obvious, but would you  actually  really want to explore the page
every time considering how busy their site is with rotating suggestions and
the like? I agree search is a good thing to use but I've been fooled more
than once by there being several buying choices all with add to basket
buttons for example.
 Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene" <gsasner@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 8:19 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate


And I wonder how much actual training material such as tutorials explains
this or does so to any extent.  Unless things have changed, and I havedn't
seen much discussion in quite some time, even small changes in a web site
causes mass confusion because so many people aren't taught to explore pages.
Just changing the download link to a download button caused a lot of
confusion when Send Space made that change.  I hardly noticed it when it
happened because I used the screen-reader search feature to find the word
"download."  I found the control just as easily and quickly either way.
Actually, the button is faster and easier because now I just type b once
from the top of the page to find it.  But to those who learn by rote, even
minute changes may lead to an inability to do something on a site.

Gene
----- Original Message -----
Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Ron Canazzi
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 12:35 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate


Hi Gene,

\

I have had bad experiences with TVI people.  One of them when asked if she
knew the basics of teaching JAWS said: "No, but I and my client will learn
it together."  That speaks volumes.






On 12/1/2017 11:07 AM, Gene wrote:

  Certainly, for those who want to use programs that are not completely
accessible, and that includes most somewhat demanding and more demanding
users, those are important things to learn.  But in this case, I think my
analysis points to a much deeper problem, the poor Internet instruction a
lot of blind people evidently get.  I wonder how much traning material
explains things such as I describe.  I don't know but I'm skeptical that it
is explained in a lot of material because of the kinds of problems and
questions people raise about using the Internet.

  Gene
  ----- Original Message -----

  From: Ron Canazzi
  Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 9:42 AM
  To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
  Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate


  Hi Gene,




  Long story short of your analysis: learn to use your screen reader's quick
navigation keys and other features.  This allows the reorganization and the
advantages of DOM to coexist.






  On 12/1/2017 6:44 AM, Gene wrote:

    If you know how web pages are actually organized, the contacts problem
and other such possible problems can be eliminated very easily.  We, blind
people,  see a lot of links moving down from the top of the page.  A sighted
person sees these running down the left side of the page in a column. Then
we see the main content below the links. A sighted person sees the content
toward the middle of the page, moving from left to right on the page.  Then
a blind user sees a lot of links in a block at the bottom of the page.  A
sighted person sees these links running down the right side of the page in
another column, in the same way as the links on the left side are seen.

    So a blind person sees a bloc of links at the top, main content below
the links then another block of links at the bottom.  A sighted person sees
links running down the left side, main content to the right of those links,
and on the right another block of links running down the page in a column.

    So, if you are using a screen-reader with the ridiculous word wrap
feature, turn it off if it isn't off.  then do a screen-reader search for
the word contact from the top of the page.  Repeat the search to see how
many contact links there are.  The one a sighted person describes as being
on the right is the one the blind person will see as the second one, if
there are only two and no more and there shouldn't be any more.  If there is
only one, there is, of course, no problem.  When you get to the last one, if
you repeat the search again, you will get an error message.  If you dismiss
the error message, you will still be on the link.  You won't lose your
place.

    You don't have to give up all the advantages of reorganization and
usually it is much better to leave reorganization on.

    Gene
    ----- Original Message -----

    From: Christopher-Mark Gilland
    Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 3:08 AM
    To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
    Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate


    Adriani,

    You make some extremely valid points which should be carefully
considered, yes. Thanks for your contribution to the thread, and fair enough
statements.
    ---
    Christopher Gilland
    Co-founder of Genuine Safe Haven Ministries

    http://www.gshministry.org
    (980) 500-9575
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Adriani Botez
      To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
      Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 3:58 AM
      Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate


      Hello,


      I an not using screen layout like in your second example due to
following reasons:
      - By navigating with down arrow link by link I can decide by myself
how fast things are being red since I can decide not to hear the whole link
label, but only let‘s say the first half of the word. I don‘t have to wait
until the last link on the tab is being announced
      - If I want to navigate link by link in screen layout, then I have to
press the ctrl key and the right arrow key (applies only for link bars like
you have described or for forms with many elements on one line). The problem
is that pressing ctrl + right arrow NVDA reads word by word and not link by
link or button by button. So I am navigating much slower through the content
      - When navigating by ctrl + right arrow through a link bar with 5
links to focus the last one, I don‘t know when the bar ends unless I have
listened to NVDA reading the whole bar before
      - There is the NVDA addon audiotheme 3d which gives me a screen
presentation by playing a short sound in my headfones exactly at the
position where the object is located on the screen.


      Best
      Adriani



      Von meinem iPhone gesendet

      Am 01.12.2017 um 09:20 schrieb Christopher-Mark Gilland
<clgilland07@...>:


        For those who may have a bit of a hearing impairment, let me make it
very clear. In my subject, I'm saying DOM, D O M, not balm, b A L M.
Although some may call DOM the balm. LOL! And here therefore lies the reason
for my post this morning. - I fully realize that this is somewhat a
subjective topic, and that everyone will have his or her own opinions on the
matter. It is therefore my hope, that you, the reader, have an open and
civil mind, and observe this question from all angles before making your
response statement on list. I do not want to see this grow to a heated war
debate. Anyone who would like to publish this on their website, or wherever
is welcome to do so as long as you give credit back to me.

        First off, what is DOM?

        DOM, Document Object Model, without getting too technical, is one
way in which assistive technology such as screen readers obtain information
from one's computer screen. When we load a website in our browser of choice,
for example, some screen readers use the DOM functionality to draw a
representation of the content on the screen.

        So, what does this mean to us non-techies?

        Put simply, though I am not particularly sure of the exact workflow
which occurs behind the scene, what I can tell you is this. Often times,
more than not, this approach requires the assistive technology sitting in
between the user and the web browser to redraw, as some would say, the
entire HTML content in completion. The reason that the word "redraw" is used
is because essentially, this is exactly what is happening.

        Once a website is loaded, a certain amount of memory is allocated
aside where the website in question may be rendered. There are a few
advantages to this, however there are also some huge setbacks.

        Beauty and the Beast

        One of the advantages which probably appears to be fairly obvious
from an outsider's perspective is that this will allow assistive technology
to use certain methods to gather the web content and then present the
material in an easy, robust, and sensably accessible manor. As the writer of
this post, let me assure all of you... I definitely see the side of this
argument.

        Here's a practical example of DOM.

        Let's assume, for just a moment, that you have loaded a website in
the browser of your preference, be it Firefox, Internet Explorer, Chrome,
etc.

        On this particular page, there are links which visually appear as
horizontal tabs extending across the top of the page. These tabs include the
following:

          a.. Home
          b.. About Us
          c.. Blog
          d.. Shop
          e.. Support
          f.. Contact Us

        To fully understand how this works, I encourage you to read the
following part of this e-mail by using your down arrow key, and reading line
by line individually. Here is what you will see. Remember before I go any
further with this, all of these links visually appear as one strip of
horizontal tabs running across the top of the web page.

        Link Home
        Link About Us
        Link Blog
        Link Shop
        Link Support
        Link Contact Us

        Here's another example.

        You have a short form on a website. This form asks for your first
name, your last name, and your e-mail address. Here's how DOM most likely
would reinterpret this. Again, please read this line by line.

        Please fill out the following form so we may keep in touch.

        First name
        Edit
        Last name
        Edit
        E-mail
        Edit
        Submit button
        Clear form button.

        First example without DOM

        Read this line by line, and make sure this window with my message is
maximized before doing so.

        Link home, Link About Us, Link Blog, Link Shopt, Link Support, Link
Contact Us.

        Second example without DOM

        Please fill out the following form so we may keep in touch.

        First name Edit
        Last name Edit
        E-mail Edit, Submit: button, Clear form: Button.

        The difference

        As you can see in the above four illustrations, the first two
examples were rendered in such that each link/form control was on its own
line. This is why I asked you to read line by line, as doing a say-all, you
never would have most likely caught this. So, in other words, let's make
this really easy in plain english.

        Refer back to my very first example where we had the tabs which are
being represented as hyperlinks. As you recall, I said that they all went
horizontally from left to right across the top of the page.

        The problem is, DOM renders each element, for lack of better word,
as its own separate item. For this reason, each element is on its own
dedicated line of text. This is why each link is seeming to appear on its
own line by itself. The truth is, these links in all actuality are not on
multiple lines. They are actually expanding across the entire marginal width
of the screen. Are you starting to see where this could be a potential
problem?

        The second example is slightly less annoying, however the point
still stands in existance.

        We have a form. If you've ever seen how a form generally looks on a
print sheet of paper, you'll note that most form field labels such as first
name, last name, etc. go down the left side of the sheet of paper. Then,
horizontally aligned beside these field labels is the data value.

        For example, I might have a form printed out which I sign for a
Hippa release at my doctor's office. The first field may say, "Name". Out to
the immediate right of this will be either a line, or a box. It just depends
on how the form is designed, but the over all point is, there will be a
second column to the immediate right of where it said, "First name". This is
where I would write, "Christopher (Middle name) Gilland. Obviously, some of
you may know my middle name, but for privacy sake, I'm not including it
here.

        Given how the above physical print paper illustration is formatted,
as most forms online or not would be, does it really make sense to have the
form field, then the data directly below? No. It doesn't.

        Look at my above second example without DOM. Notice that the edit
box for all three fields is now actually rendering exactly as it would be
visually on the screen. The boxes are to the immediate right of the fields,
on the same line. Doesn't that just naturally feel better in your mind, and
make more sense? It definitely should to most people.

        Finally, we have both the submit, and the clear vbuttons.

        Does it make sense to you that they'd both be virtically stacked one
on top of the other? It certainly doesn't to me! In fact, to me, I'd even go
so far as to say it seems absolutely gross! Maybe I am more a visual
learner, but even if I wasn't, this doesn't logically compute. However, this
is exactly how DOM is rendering it... One button, and one element per line.

        Helping the sighted to guide you

        So why is this such a vbig deal? Call me a perfectionist, but let's
assume for just a moment that you're on the phone with a customer service
representative. They tell you to click the contact us tab located in the
upper right corner of the page. This would be a very poor website design,
and to any web debvs on here, please for the love of god, take this in
consideration! I can't tell you though how many times I've seen this. A web
designer will put a contact link at the top of the page which has a form to
e-mail them. Further down the page, they have another contact link within
the actual main body's content. The difference however is, in this second
link, though named identically the same thing, "Contact Us", this second
link doesn't direct the visiter to a contact form, but instead gives a phone
number, fax number, and possibly a postal address. Totally unacceptable in
my view! All this should be consolidated on the one contact page at the top
of the screen. This however still proves my point, and like I said, I've
seen this more times than I could count, and would gbe rich if I had a
dollar for every time I have. OK, so, you now arrow through the page, or do
an NVDA find to locate the Contact link. Heck, you might even do NVDA+F7 to
bring up your links list. And believe me, though I'm directing this more as
an NVDA thing, NVDA isn't the only screen reader which can use the DOM
method. JAWS, for example, is incredibly! and I do mean, incredibly!
notorious for this. Now, think about this a minute with this really
convoluted scanareo regarding the contact link. - How are you going to know
which contact link to press enter on to open the contact form, if you're in
DOM navigation? Exactly! - You won't. It would be hit and miss.

        Now, let's take this same situation without DOM mode.

        In this environment, for lack of better word, you would observe both
via audible speech, as well as via braille output if you have a display,
that the first "Contact us" link is on the far right edge of the screen.
You'd know this as you'd see the other links like Home, About us, Blog, etc.
on the same line but to the immediate left before it. Does this make sense
what I'm saying?

        The bottom line

        Regardless if you choose to use DOM or not is not something anyone
should decide for an individual. If you are coming from a screen reader like
JAWS as I have, you definitely may find turning off DOM navigation to be
extremely awquard at best. I'd even go as far as to say that it may drive
you absolutely crazy at first, and make your web browsing experience seem
dreadful. I would however seriously encourage people to at least give it a
try for a few days without DOM navigation. Inevitably, if you're not used to
it, it's going to take some getting used to, however if you're anything like
me, I feel that eventually, you will really start to see the benefits of not
using DOM. DOM is great in my opinion, don't get me wrong, but if you want,
or need in a mission critical environment to have an exact representation of
the content, then fact is fact, you're not going to get it with DOM mode,
end of the story, it's just not gonna happen, period. You might as well just
accept it. The other thing to also realize is, you are taking up unnecessary
memory/processor power to render things differently as an offline model.
Granted, OK, it may not be much, but that's not the point. It's still taking
up what to some would be considered as unnecessary resources.

        What are your thoughts?

        Do you use DOM? If not, I'd be interested in your reasons why not.

        Chris.


--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"

--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"



Re: OT: selecting a new laptop is more difficult than before

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

Of course it could be something that goes wrong elsewhere, say on the motherboards. Its got so many variables I wonder if anyone has actually disected the real reasons for failures.
Anyway, this is getting far off topic now compared to the speed needed to run nvda with real world apps on windows 10 on a new laptop, which was the original point here.
Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Monte Single" <mrsingle@sasktel.net>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, December 03, 2017 10:35 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] OT: selecting a new laptop is more difficult than before


I have had desktops with a m d processors for 15 years. None of these machines had a processor problem; they just got old.
I think the talk of a m d processors being a problem is a myth.
I could be wrong.
Show me.
-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: December-03-17 4:16 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] OT: selecting a new laptop is more difficult than before

Do you find that reliability is worse on AMD? I have had a couple of these just die on me in desktop machines in the last year, it has to be said both were second user and one cannot know what abuse has gone before of course.
Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Shaun Everiss" <sm.everiss@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, December 03, 2017 4:53 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] OT: selecting a new laptop is more difficult than before


Well what I like about amd chips is that they usually have an intergrated
radion card in them.




On 3/12/2017 5:34 p.m., tim wrote:
You AMD equal to Intel is wy off, because I7 is 7 gen, I5 is 6 gen and I3
is 8 gen. Anything below this is slow and very out dated. Now only the I7
supports hyperthreding and the I5 only has quad turboboost and the I3 is
only dual core.
So I5 or better is good with Intel.
now AMD just go by the processor speed.
Now if your building a box like I am now. You try to get that CPU as high
as you can in a already built box to lower the cost. If your just getting
something like a Dell it don’t really matter your going for price.
Now I’m just wanting everything except drives and ram. I can get those
cheaper then a Dell box has and better.
On Dec 2, 2017, at 1:33 AM, Sarah k Alawami <marrie12@gmail.com> wrote:

I have a machien wiht 32 gigs of ram and an I think i5 4ghz processer
and 6 gig graphics card. It rocks and nvda runs just swimingly on it.

Take care

On Nov 30, 2017, at 10:16 AM, Governor staten <govsta@gmail.com
<mailto:govsta@gmail.com>> wrote:

One thing is for sure. You need at least 6 or 8 gb of ram. Netbooks no
longer cut it, at all. You could possibly find some refurbished
computers on Amazon.



I have an Asus netbook with 4 gb of ram (not expansible), 500 gb hard
drive, 2.16 ghz dual-core Intel Celeron processor. Graphics and audio
are built-in. I need to get a new computer, as well. I'm interested in
this discussion for that reason.







On 11/30/2017 11:26 AM, Deborah Armstrong wrote:
** This was also cross-posted to Cavi-discuss ***
As a screen reader user, I'm finding selecting a new laptop is more
difficult than ever before. I'm very curious to see what others think,
so please post your thoughts.
It used to be that I didn't feel I needed a super fast computer,
because I wasn't editing video. And nowadays if you look at reviews of
laptops, you'll see that people who edit photos, use CAD systems,
create art or engage in heavy gaming need fast machines. But for those
who just surf the web, read email and do some light word processing,
reviewers maintain that a slower and cheaper laptop will work just
fine. In fact, reviews of chromebooks are often mixed in with reviews
of inexpensive Windows laptops for just that reason.
In 2012 my Acer netbook (An AO-756) was the fastest ultraportable I
could buy for under $500. Its processor, a 1.4GHZ Intel Celeron 877
was a dual core from the Sandy Bridge family -- the slowest one in
that family, but it wasn't a much slower Atom. It had a reasonable
fast 500GB hard drive. I added 8GB of RAM making it even more useful
at running multiple tasks efficiently. I could use Word, Excel and
Outlook without latency and of course I did a lot of web surfing.
Compared to the computers at work, it was a bit slower, but like the
reviewers said, it didn't matter, since I didn't do computation-heavy
tasks at home.
What's changed today might best be covered in this post:

https://www.marcozehe.de/2017/09/29/rethinking-web-accessibility-on-windows/
<>
which discusses how screen readers access the web. Today, if I have
to work with a dynamic website, my little ACER is unbearably slow,
despite my having carefully maintained it so it doesn't run
unnecessary background tasks, and so that Windows is regularly fully
refreshed.
I am convinced the problem is not so much that the PC is slow, but
that the screen reader has become a palace built on a shack's
foundation. It needs everything it can squeeze out of the processor to
handle the new, dynamic web. Seems both NVDA and JAWS fail miserably
on slower processors.
But if a task does not depend on a screen reader, the machine is
still fairly fast. For example, when I OCR something in Kurzweil
1000, the laptop is just as fast as my much more powerful desktop
computers at work. And running something like Handbrake is indeed
slower on my laptop but not so slow it cannot be used. A video that
takes an hour to convert on my desktop at work might take fifteen
extra minutes on the laptop. Handbrake is often used as an informal
benchmarking tool.
But where instant responsiveness counts, my Netbook falls short. I
expect to hear something when I press a key. Often, today, I don't --
seems like I am always waiting for the screen reader to pull itself
together and find the focus, or cope with a dynamic partial page
refresh, or the next column in the spreadsheet, or read my next email
in Thunderbird.
The Acer actually got fractionally faster when I upgraded to Windows
10, but even so, I mostly wait after pressing a key to hear something
read back to me.
My work computers which run Core i7 Pentiums respond immediately,
even though they are saddled with far more background tasks required
by my job.
So if I were to trust reviews, this claim that for the kinds of
things I do at home on the laptop I don't need a very powerful
machine, I'd buy something with an Atom processor, a 128GB SSD and 2GB
of RAM. Clearly that would result in a machine that's even slower than
my existing laptop. Plus, it would have a quarter of the storage!
I guess the dilemma I'm struggling with here is how to avoid
spending a fortune and still get an ultraportable that has no latency
when I use a screen reader.
What do others think?
--Debee



Re: OT: selecting a new laptop is more difficult than before

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

Yes I was told this as well. I think its just that the memory can wear out. Not a lot seems to be known about this, but it can happen. One of the Martian Rovers has started to exhibit this issue, and a service call to that particular installation is not going to be possible!
It seems mostly its flash ram ie ram that is non volatile, the refreshed memory takes current and has a refresh cycle that keeps the 1s and 0s as they were. I guess flash settings can just leak away over time.


I do on average every 6 months or so do a registry defrag and clean, as this seems to still impact boot up time. The other parts seem not to care.
Mine is a Samsung 250 meg one.
Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "The Gamages" <james.gamage@btinternet.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, December 03, 2017 10:35 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] OT: selecting a new laptop is more difficult than before


Hello,
Regarding SSDs, as I understand it, there is a slight issue with these in
that some memory can become un writable, it can still be read, but nothing
further can be writtten into it.
I realise that this can take a long time to happen and, if the drive is a
large capacity, it may never be an issue.
I am only raising this point because I don’t fully understand the
consequences of this.
I was told by a computer engineer that it is not a good idea to de fragment
a solid state drive for this reason, it can make some memory un writable if
it is done regularly and is not really necessary on this sort of drive.

Comments please, even if you shoot me down in flames,[smile]..

Best Regards, Jim.

From: Tyler Wood
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 6:43 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] OT: selecting a new laptop is more difficult than before

Keep in mind AMD has just released their ryzen mobile processors, so that
should be interesting. Similar to Intel, it will be Ryzen 3 = intel i3,
ryzen 5 = intel i5, ryzen 7 = intel i7.

In these modern days, hard drives truly limit the speed of a computer. If
you can afford it, even if it takes a little longer to save up, go for
something with a solid state drive. You’ll never go back again. Even a cheap
windows tablet with a 64 gb ssd is going to beat the socks off of that huge
i5 with a 1 tb spinning hard drives in booting up, general snappyness around
windows. Web browsing not so much but even so the solid state drive is what
makes or breaks a computer and is why you can get by with a core i3 or equal
from AMD.

Sean has a good point about soundcards these days, too. And even with
headphones on it can still be painful with speech – so try and play with
them in the store using narrator.





From: Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: December 1, 2017 4:29 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] OT: selecting a new laptop is more difficult than before



Is there a n equivelance chart somewhere for what Intel and AMD systems are

roughly the same as each other?

Brian



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----- Original Message -----

From: "Don H" <lmddh50@adams.net>

To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>

Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2017 6:23 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] OT: selecting a new laptop is more difficult than before





I think it is important to get at least a Intel I3 processor or its AMD
equal. If you can't afford a higher Intel processor you will find fast AMD
processors cheaper and just as good as Intel.
On 11/30/2017 12:16 PM, Governor staten wrote:
One thing is for sure. You need at least 6 or 8 gb of ram. Netbooks no
longer cut it, at all. You could possibly find some refurbished computers
on Amazon.
I have an Asus netbook with 4 gb of ram (not expansible), 500 gb hard
drive, 2.16 ghz dual-core Intel Celeron processor. Graphics and audio are
built-in. I need to get a new computer, as well. I'm interested in this
discussion for that reason.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
On 11/30/2017 11:26 AM, Deborah Armstrong wrote:
** This was also cross-posted to Cavi-discuss ***
As a screen reader user, I'm finding selecting a new laptop is more
difficult than ever before. I'm very curious to see what others think,
so please post your thoughts.
It used to be that I didn't feel I needed a super fast computer, because
I wasn't editing video. And nowadays if you look at reviews of laptops,
you'll see that people who edit photos, use CAD systems, create art or
engage in heavy gaming need fast machines. But for those who just surf
the web, read email and do some light word processing, reviewers
maintain that a slower and cheaper laptop will work just fine. In fact,
reviews of chromebooks are often mixed in with reviews of inexpensive
Windows laptops for just that reason.
In 2012 my Acer netbook (An AO-756) was the fastest ultraportable I
could buy for under $500. Its processor, a 1.4GHZ Intel Celeron 877 was
a dual core from the Sandy Bridge family -- the slowest one in that
family, but it wasn't a much slower Atom. It had a reasonable fast 500GB
hard drive. I added 8GB of RAM making it even more useful at running
multiple tasks efficiently. I could use Word, Excel and Outlook without
latency and of course I did a lot of web surfing. Compared to the
computers at work, it was a bit slower, but like the reviewers said, it
didn't matter, since I didn't do computation-heavy tasks at home.
What's changed today might best be covered in this post:
https://www.marcozehe.de/2017/09/29/rethinking-web-accessibility-on-windows/
which discusses how screen readers access the web. Today, if I have to
work with a dynamic website, my little ACER is unbearably slow, despite
my having carefully maintained it so it doesn't run unnecessary
background tasks, and so that Windows is regularly fully refreshed.
I am convinced the problem is not so much that the PC is slow, but that
the screen reader has become a palace built on a shack's foundation. It
needs everything it can squeeze out of the processor to handle the new,
dynamic web. Seems both NVDA and JAWS fail miserably on slower
processors.
But if a task does not depend on a screen reader, the machine is still
fairly fast. For example, when I OCR something in Kurzweil 1000, the
laptop is just as fast as my much more powerful desktop computers at
work. And running something like Handbrake is indeed slower on my laptop
but not so slow it cannot be used. A video that takes an hour to convert
on my desktop at work might take fifteen extra minutes on the laptop.
Handbrake is often used as an informal benchmarking tool.
But where instant responsiveness counts, my Netbook falls short. I
expect to hear something when I press a key. Often, today, I don't --
seems like I am always waiting for the screen reader to pull itself
together and find the focus, or cope with a dynamic partial page
refresh, or the next column in the spreadsheet, or read my next email in
Thunderbird.
The Acer actually got fractionally faster when I upgraded to Windows 10,
but even so, I mostly wait after pressing a key to hear something read
back to me.
My work computers which run Core i7 Pentiums respond immediately, even
though they are saddled with far more background tasks required by my
job.
So if I were to trust reviews, this claim that for the kinds of things I
do at home on the laptop I don't need a very powerful machine, I'd buy
something with an Atom processor, a 128GB SSD and 2GB of RAM. Clearly
that would result in a machine that's even slower than my existing
laptop. Plus, it would have a quarter of the storage!
I guess the dilemma I'm struggling with here is how to avoid spending a
fortune and still get an ultraportable that has no latency when I use a
screen reader.
What do others think?
--Debee


Re: OT: selecting a new laptop is more difficult than before

David Griffith
 

Ditto – I have been  using a Desktop with AMD for the last 5 years.

David Griffith

 

My Blind Access and Guide dog Blog
http://dgriffithblog.wordpress.com/
My Blind hammer Blog
https://www.westhamtillidie.com/authors/blind-hammer/posts

 

From: Monte Single
Sent: 03 December 2017 10:35
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] OT: selecting a new laptop is more difficult than before

 

I have had desktops with  a m d processors for 15 years.  None of these  machines had a processor problem; they just got old.

I think the talk of a m d processors being a problem is a myth.

I could be wrong.

Show me.

-----Original Message-----

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io

Sent: December-03-17 4:16 AM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] OT: selecting a new laptop is more difficult than before

 

Do you find that reliability is worse on AMD? I have had a couple of these just die on me in desktop machines in the last year, it has to be said both were second user and one cannot know what abuse has gone before of course.

Brian

 

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----- Original Message -----

From: "Shaun Everiss" <sm.everiss@...>

To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>

Sent: Sunday, December 03, 2017 4:53 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] OT: selecting a new laptop is more difficult than before

 

 

> Well what I like about amd chips is that they usually have an intergrated

> radion card in them.

> On 3/12/2017 5:34 p.m., tim wrote:

>> You AMD equal to Intel is wy off, because I7 is 7 gen, I5 is 6 gen and I3

>> is 8 gen. Anything below this is slow and very out dated. Now only the I7

>> supports hyperthreding and the I5 only has quad turboboost and the I3 is

>> only dual core.

>> So I5 or better is good with Intel.

>> now AMD just go by the processor speed.

>> Now if your building a box like I am now. You try to get that CPU as high

>> as you can in a already built box to lower the cost. If your just getting

>> something like a Dell it don’t really matter your going for price.

>> Now I’m just wanting everything except drives and ram. I can get those

>> cheaper then a Dell box has and better.

>>> On Dec 2, 2017, at 1:33 AM, Sarah k Alawami <marrie12@...> wrote:

>>> 

>>> I have a machien wiht 32 gigs of ram and an I think i5 4ghz processer

>>> and 6 gig graphics card. It rocks and nvda runs just swimingly on it.

>>> 

>>> Take care

>>> 

>>>> On Nov 30, 2017, at 10:16 AM, Governor staten <govsta@...

>>>> <mailto:govsta@...>> wrote:

>>>> 

>>>> One thing is for sure. You need at least 6 or 8 gb of ram. Netbooks no

>>>> longer cut it, at all. You could possibly find some refurbished

>>>> computers on Amazon.

>>>> 

>>>> 

>>>> 

>>>> I have an Asus netbook with 4 gb of ram (not expansible), 500 gb hard

>>>> drive, 2.16 ghz dual-core Intel Celeron processor. Graphics and audio

>>>> are built-in. I need to get a new computer, as well. I'm interested in

>>>> this discussion for that reason.

>>>> 

>>>> 

>>>> 

>>>> 

>>>> 

>>>> 

>>>> 

>>>> On 11/30/2017 11:26 AM, Deborah Armstrong wrote:

>>>>> ** This was also cross-posted to Cavi-discuss ***

>>>>>   As a screen reader user, I'm finding selecting a new laptop is more

>>>>> difficult than ever before. I'm very curious to see what others think,

>>>>> so please post your thoughts.

>>>>>   It used to be that I didn't feel I needed a super fast computer,

>>>>> because I wasn't editing video. And nowadays if you look at reviews of

>>>>> laptops, you'll see that people who edit photos, use CAD systems,

>>>>> create art or engage in heavy gaming need fast machines. But for those

>>>>> who just surf the web, read email and do some light word processing,

>>>>> reviewers maintain that a slower and cheaper laptop will work just

>>>>> fine. In fact, reviews of chromebooks are often mixed in with reviews

>>>>> of inexpensive Windows laptops for just that reason.

>>>>>   In 2012 my Acer netbook (An AO-756) was the fastest ultraportable I

>>>>> could buy for under $500. Its processor, a 1.4GHZ Intel Celeron 877

>>>>> was a dual core from the Sandy Bridge family -- the slowest one in

>>>>> that family, but it wasn't a much slower Atom.    It had a reasonable

>>>>> fast 500GB hard drive. I added 8GB of RAM making it even more useful

>>>>> at running multiple tasks efficiently. I could use Word, Excel and

>>>>> Outlook without latency and of course I did a lot of web surfing.

>>>>> Compared to the computers at work, it was a bit slower, but like the

>>>>> reviewers said, it didn't matter, since I didn't do computation-heavy

>>>>> tasks at home.

>>>>>   What's changed today might best be covered in this post:

>>>>>

>>>>> https://www.marcozehe.de/2017/09/29/rethinking-web-accessibility-on-windows/

>>>>> <>

>>>>>   which discusses how screen readers access the web. Today, if I have

>>>>> to work with a dynamic website, my little ACER is unbearably slow,

>>>>> despite my having carefully maintained it so it doesn't run

>>>>> unnecessary background tasks, and so that Windows is regularly fully

>>>>> refreshed.

>>>>>   I am convinced the problem is not so much that the PC is slow, but

>>>>> that the screen reader has become a palace built on a shack's

>>>>> foundation. It needs everything it can squeeze out of the processor to

>>>>> handle the new, dynamic web. Seems both NVDA and JAWS fail miserably

>>>>> on slower processors.

>>>>>   But if a task does not depend on a screen reader, the machine is

>>>>> still fairly fast.  For example, when I OCR something in Kurzweil

>>>>> 1000, the laptop is just as fast as my much more powerful desktop

>>>>> computers at work. And running something like Handbrake is indeed

>>>>> slower on my laptop but not so slow it cannot be used. A video that

>>>>> takes an hour to convert on my desktop at work might take fifteen

>>>>> extra minutes on the laptop. Handbrake is often used as an informal

>>>>> benchmarking tool.

>>>>>   But where instant responsiveness counts, my Netbook falls short. I

>>>>> expect to hear something when I press a key. Often, today, I don't --

>>>>> seems like I am always waiting for the screen reader to pull itself

>>>>> together and find the focus, or cope with a dynamic partial page

>>>>> refresh, or the next column in the spreadsheet, or read my next email

>>>>> in Thunderbird.

>>>>>   The Acer actually got fractionally faster when I upgraded to Windows

>>>>> 10, but even so, I mostly wait after pressing a key to hear something

>>>>> read back to me.

>>>>>   My work computers which run Core i7 Pentiums respond immediately,

>>>>> even though they are saddled with far more background tasks required

>>>>> by my job.

>>>>>   So if I were to trust reviews, this claim that for the kinds of

>>>>> things I do at home on the laptop I don't need a very powerful

>>>>> machine, I'd buy something with an Atom processor, a 128GB SSD and 2GB

>>>>> of RAM. Clearly that would result in a machine that's even slower than

>>>>> my existing laptop. Plus, it would have a quarter of the storage!

>>>>>   I guess the dilemma I'm struggling with here is how to avoid

>>>>> spending a fortune and still get an ultraportable that has no latency

>>>>> when I use a screen reader.

>>>>>   What do others think?

>>>>>   --Debee

>>> 

>> 

>

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


Re: Installing eclipse

Jaffar Sidek <jaffar.sidek10@...>
 

As long as you do not install Java 9 but Java 8 update 51, you are ok.  32 bit Java is still present with this latest Java 8 update.  Cheers!.  ,

On 3/12/2017 6:08 PM, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io wrote:
is there not an issue over the 32 Access bridge not being available any more though, or was I asleep during the last debate on here about this?
Brian

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----- Original Message ----- From: "Jaffar Sidek" <jaffar.sidek10@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, December 03, 2017 1:26 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Installing eclipse


HI. Do not download the .exe version as the installer is not at all accessible. Download the .zip version, then if you already have the latest Java installed, unzip it to your main drive, drive C in most cases. Also, remember to switch access bridge on. To do that, go to Ease Of Access center, navigate to the link that says "Use your computer without a display" or something to that effect, then go to the access bridge check box and check it. That should do the trick. Cheers!


On 3/12/2017 8:12 AM, Tony Malykh wrote:
Hello everyone,


I've heard that Eclipse is a popular IDE among VI people, so I've decided to give it a try. However, it's installer doesn't seem to be accessible to me. How do you guys install it?


So I successfully installed JDK 9 64-bit (since eclipse installer asked for it).


I downloaded an official Eclipse oxygen 64-bit installer from here:

http://www.eclipse.org/downloads/

And when I start it, it shows me a window with unlabelled buttons, editboxes, etc.


Am I doing anything wrong? Any suggestions will be appreciated.


Thank you

Tony







Re: OT: selecting a new laptop is more difficult than before

Tyler Wood
 

Hi,

I think this mostly applied to ssd’s that were out 6 or more years ago. I have had this one running steady – and I have not done anything like delete the page file, change temporary file location etc to a spinning hard drive. It still has 97^ life left, according to hw monitor and hw info. It’s coming up on 5 years old in March. They have nifty logic boards in them and everything – though as they say, your mileage may vary. This one has also been very close to full most of its life – it’s a 120 gb Intel ssd. I think the 520 series from 2013.

 

From: Antony Stone
Sent: December 3, 2017 4:42 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] OT: selecting a new laptop is more difficult than before

 

I would be very interested if you could post some links to the information

about SSDs becoming unwriteable.

 

Regarding defragmenting an SSD - there is absolutely no point.

 

The whole purpose of defragmenting a traditional spinning hard disk was to get

all the parts of a single file together, instead of being spread (fragmented)

across the drive, which happens when small files are deleted and then larger

ones are written into the gaps afterwards.  Having the entire file together in

one place is much more efficient for reading it later than having it spread

around the disk (because it takes time for the mechanical heads to go and find

all the different parts).

 

With an SSD, accessing one part is just as efficient as any other - nothing

needs to move to get to the next part, so fragmented files are no less efficient

to read than complete ones.

 

 

Antony.

 

On Sunday 03 December 2017 at 11:35:19, The Gamages wrote:

 

> Hello,

> Regarding SSDs, as I understand it, there is a slight issue with these in

> that some memory can become un writable, it can still be read, but nothing

> further can be writtten into it.

> I realise that this can take a long time to happen and, if the drive is a

> large capacity, it may never be an issue.

> I am only raising this point because I don’t fully understand the

> consequences of this.

> I was told by a computer engineer that it is not a good idea to de fragment

> a solid state drive for this reason, it can make some memory un writable if

> it is done regularly and is not really necessary  on this sort of drive.

>

> Comments please, even if you shoot me down in flames,[smile]..

>

> Best Regards, Jim.

>

> From: Tyler Wood

> Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 6:43 PM

> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

> Subject: Re: [nvda] OT: selecting a new laptop is more difficult than

> before

>

> Keep in mind AMD has just released their ryzen mobile processors, so that

> should be interesting. Similar to Intel, it will be Ryzen 3 = intel i3,

> ryzen 5 = intel i5, ryzen 7 = intel i7.

>

> In these modern days, hard drives truly limit the speed of a computer. If

> you can afford it, even if it takes a little longer to save up, go for

> something with a solid state drive. You’ll never go back again. Even a

> cheap windows tablet with a 64 gb ssd is going to beat the socks off of

> that huge i5 with a 1 tb spinning hard drives in booting up, general

> snappyness around windows. Web browsing not so much but even so the solid

> state drive is what makes or breaks a computer and is why you can get by

> with a core i3 or equal from AMD.

>

> Sean has a good point about soundcards these days, too. And even with

> headphones on it can still be painful with speech – so try and play with

> them in the store using narrator.

 

--

"In fact I wanted to be John Cleese and it took me some time to realise that

the job was already taken."

 

- Douglas Adams

 

                                                   Please reply to the list;

                                                         please *don't* CC me.

 

 

 


Re: OT: selecting a new laptop is more difficult than before

Tyler Wood
 

Sorry, longer post than I intended.

AMD has had a history of being behind Intel on instructions per clock (IPC) ever since the Pentium 4 gave way to the introduction of the core solo and core duo etc. This means that, in theory, a 4 GHZ AMD was on par with a 3.2 ghz Intel core i7. This last year, though, with the introduction of ryzen, things are shaping up to be quite snappy and ryzen is keeping up with if not beating the latest 8th gen processors from Intel on the desktop front at least. I’m running an AMD fx8350 in this thing for the last 4 years. Rock solid reliability. I’m switching to intel not by choice but because the dell xps 8930 that I’m getting did not come with an AMD equal. I like the compact design and for the price I got it at I can’t go wrong.

Also for the person saying AMD comes in with integrated cards, yes they do but so does Intel and, at least right now, Intel is really starting to ramp on the graphics front, too. Nothing is going to beat a dedicated Nvidia graphics card or AMD, but if you don’t play mainstream games this really isn’t an issue and you’re only wasting money on things that could otherwise come in handy like a bigger solid state drive. If going for long term usability, a large ssd is essential – the way the world is changing and growing a 256 today could turn into a 512 gb next year before you know it. Similarly, processors are never new. Sure, they upgrade, and when you do get the newest you’re saving a lot of money over the years on your electric bill if we’re talking desktop processors. These little mini desktops pack a lot of punch for those doing light productivity tasks or whatnot and even quite a bit of audio converting and the like. My transformer book t100 that, 3 years ago, was everything I wanted in a small tablet is just barely sufficient these days. Chrome itself snaps up processor like it’s going out of style for me – it could be my add ons, though - and when you add the complexities that are surely coming in the future why hamper yourself with hardware that’s going to be old in 6 months? I used to laugh about it. Now I understand. I got an i7 not because I do super huge video converting, but in 4 years who knows what multithreaded applications will be like? Maybe NVDA, jaws, narrator, firefox, google chrome, windows explorer, skype, windows defender, and even windows updates will use 4 threads at a time rather than limiting themselves to 2. Maybe we’ll see laptop processors with 8 cores and 16 threads by 2022 or 2023. Software is really going to be pushing the boundaries now that AMD has finally given Intel a reason to step out of the mould they’ve set for the last decade.

 

Saying all this, I might be paranoid. I might be delusional. I’m sure moors law will quickly find its breaking point with the cilicone of these processors. It’s just something you want to consider when buying a new machine – yes, that celleron processor with 2 gb of ram may look nice now for $200. A year or two later and you’ll be wishing you saved up the money or spent the money to get even the i5 with 256 gb of storage and 8 gb ram.

 

Just my thoughts though.

 

From: Monte Single
Sent: December 3, 2017 4:35 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] OT: selecting a new laptop is more difficult than before

 

I have had desktops with  a m d processors for 15 years.  None of these  machines had a processor problem; they just got old.

I think the talk of a m d processors being a problem is a myth.

I could be wrong.

Show me.

-----Original Message-----

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io

Sent: December-03-17 4:16 AM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] OT: selecting a new laptop is more difficult than before

 

Do you find that reliability is worse on AMD? I have had a couple of these just die on me in desktop machines in the last year, it has to be said both were second user and one cannot know what abuse has gone before of course.

Brian

 

bglists@...

Sent via blueyonder.

Please address personal email to:-

briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'

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----- Original Message -----

From: "Shaun Everiss" <sm.everiss@...>

To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>

Sent: Sunday, December 03, 2017 4:53 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] OT: selecting a new laptop is more difficult than before

 

 

> Well what I like about amd chips is that they usually have an intergrated

> radion card in them.

> On 3/12/2017 5:34 p.m., tim wrote:

>> You AMD equal to Intel is wy off, because I7 is 7 gen, I5 is 6 gen and I3

>> is 8 gen. Anything below this is slow and very out dated. Now only the I7

>> supports hyperthreding and the I5 only has quad turboboost and the I3 is

>> only dual core.

>> So I5 or better is good with Intel.

>> now AMD just go by the processor speed.

>> Now if your building a box like I am now. You try to get that CPU as high

>> as you can in a already built box to lower the cost. If your just getting

>> something like a Dell it don’t really matter your going for price.

>> Now I’m just wanting everything except drives and ram. I can get those

>> cheaper then a Dell box has and better.

>>> On Dec 2, 2017, at 1:33 AM, Sarah k Alawami <marrie12@...> wrote:

>>> 

>>> I have a machien wiht 32 gigs of ram and an I think i5 4ghz processer

>>> and 6 gig graphics card. It rocks and nvda runs just swimingly on it.

>>> 

>>> Take care

>>> 

>>>> On Nov 30, 2017, at 10:16 AM, Governor staten <govsta@...

>>>> <mailto:govsta@...>> wrote:

>>>> 

>>>> One thing is for sure. You need at least 6 or 8 gb of ram. Netbooks no

>>>> longer cut it, at all. You could possibly find some refurbished

>>>> computers on Amazon.

>>>> 

>>>> 

>>>> 

>>>> I have an Asus netbook with 4 gb of ram (not expansible), 500 gb hard

>>>> drive, 2.16 ghz dual-core Intel Celeron processor. Graphics and audio

>>>> are built-in. I need to get a new computer, as well. I'm interested in

>>>> this discussion for that reason.

>>>> 

>>>> 

>>>> 

>>>> 

>>>> 

>>>> 

>>>> 

>>>> On 11/30/2017 11:26 AM, Deborah Armstrong wrote:

>>>>> ** This was also cross-posted to Cavi-discuss ***

>>>>>   As a screen reader user, I'm finding selecting a new laptop is more

>>>>> difficult than ever before. I'm very curious to see what others think,

>>>>> so please post your thoughts.

>>>>>   It used to be that I didn't feel I needed a super fast computer,

>>>>> because I wasn't editing video. And nowadays if you look at reviews of

>>>>> laptops, you'll see that people who edit photos, use CAD systems,

>>>>> create art or engage in heavy gaming need fast machines. But for those

>>>>> who just surf the web, read email and do some light word processing,

>>>>> reviewers maintain that a slower and cheaper laptop will work just

>>>>> fine. In fact, reviews of chromebooks are often mixed in with reviews

>>>>> of inexpensive Windows laptops for just that reason.

>>>>>   In 2012 my Acer netbook (An AO-756) was the fastest ultraportable I

>>>>> could buy for under $500. Its processor, a 1.4GHZ Intel Celeron 877

>>>>> was a dual core from the Sandy Bridge family -- the slowest one in

>>>>> that family, but it wasn't a much slower Atom.    It had a reasonable

>>>>> fast 500GB hard drive. I added 8GB of RAM making it even more useful

>>>>> at running multiple tasks efficiently. I could use Word, Excel and

>>>>> Outlook without latency and of course I did a lot of web surfing.

>>>>> Compared to the computers at work, it was a bit slower, but like the

>>>>> reviewers said, it didn't matter, since I didn't do computation-heavy

>>>>> tasks at home.

>>>>>   What's changed today might best be covered in this post:

>>>>>

>>>>> https://www.marcozehe.de/2017/09/29/rethinking-web-accessibility-on-windows/

>>>>> <>

>>>>>   which discusses how screen readers access the web. Today, if I have

>>>>> to work with a dynamic website, my little ACER is unbearably slow,

>>>>> despite my having carefully maintained it so it doesn't run

>>>>> unnecessary background tasks, and so that Windows is regularly fully

>>>>> refreshed.

>>>>>   I am convinced the problem is not so much that the PC is slow, but

>>>>> that the screen reader has become a palace built on a shack's

>>>>> foundation. It needs everything it can squeeze out of the processor to

>>>>> handle the new, dynamic web. Seems both NVDA and JAWS fail miserably

>>>>> on slower processors.

>>>>>   But if a task does not depend on a screen reader, the machine is

>>>>> still fairly fast.  For example, when I OCR something in Kurzweil

>>>>> 1000, the laptop is just as fast as my much more powerful desktop

>>>>> computers at work. And running something like Handbrake is indeed

>>>>> slower on my laptop but not so slow it cannot be used. A video that

>>>>> takes an hour to convert on my desktop at work might take fifteen

>>>>> extra minutes on the laptop. Handbrake is often used as an informal

>>>>> benchmarking tool.

>>>>>   But where instant responsiveness counts, my Netbook falls short. I

>>>>> expect to hear something when I press a key. Often, today, I don't --

>>>>> seems like I am always waiting for the screen reader to pull itself

>>>>> together and find the focus, or cope with a dynamic partial page

>>>>> refresh, or the next column in the spreadsheet, or read my next email

>>>>> in Thunderbird.

>>>>>   The Acer actually got fractionally faster when I upgraded to Windows

>>>>> 10, but even so, I mostly wait after pressing a key to hear something

>>>>> read back to me.

>>>>>   My work computers which run Core i7 Pentiums respond immediately,

>>>>> even though they are saddled with far more background tasks required

>>>>> by my job.

>>>>>   So if I were to trust reviews, this claim that for the kinds of

>>>>> things I do at home on the laptop I don't need a very powerful

>>>>> machine, I'd buy something with an Atom processor, a 128GB SSD and 2GB

>>>>> of RAM. Clearly that would result in a machine that's even slower than

>>>>> my existing laptop. Plus, it would have a quarter of the storage!

>>>>>   I guess the dilemma I'm struggling with here is how to avoid

>>>>> spending a fortune and still get an ultraportable that has no latency

>>>>> when I use a screen reader.

>>>>>   What do others think?

>>>>>   --Debee

>>> 

>> 

>

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


Re: OT: selecting a new laptop is more difficult than before

Antony Stone
 

I would be very interested if you could post some links to the information
about SSDs becoming unwriteable.

Regarding defragmenting an SSD - there is absolutely no point.

The whole purpose of defragmenting a traditional spinning hard disk was to get
all the parts of a single file together, instead of being spread (fragmented)
across the drive, which happens when small files are deleted and then larger
ones are written into the gaps afterwards. Having the entire file together in
one place is much more efficient for reading it later than having it spread
around the disk (because it takes time for the mechanical heads to go and find
all the different parts).

With an SSD, accessing one part is just as efficient as any other - nothing
needs to move to get to the next part, so fragmented files are no less efficient
to read than complete ones.


Antony.

On Sunday 03 December 2017 at 11:35:19, The Gamages wrote:

Hello,
Regarding SSDs, as I understand it, there is a slight issue with these in
that some memory can become un writable, it can still be read, but nothing
further can be writtten into it.
I realise that this can take a long time to happen and, if the drive is a
large capacity, it may never be an issue.
I am only raising this point because I don’t fully understand the
consequences of this.
I was told by a computer engineer that it is not a good idea to de fragment
a solid state drive for this reason, it can make some memory un writable if
it is done regularly and is not really necessary on this sort of drive.

Comments please, even if you shoot me down in flames,[smile]..

Best Regards, Jim.

From: Tyler Wood
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 6:43 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] OT: selecting a new laptop is more difficult than
before

Keep in mind AMD has just released their ryzen mobile processors, so that
should be interesting. Similar to Intel, it will be Ryzen 3 = intel i3,
ryzen 5 = intel i5, ryzen 7 = intel i7.

In these modern days, hard drives truly limit the speed of a computer. If
you can afford it, even if it takes a little longer to save up, go for
something with a solid state drive. You’ll never go back again. Even a
cheap windows tablet with a 64 gb ssd is going to beat the socks off of
that huge i5 with a 1 tb spinning hard drives in booting up, general
snappyness around windows. Web browsing not so much but even so the solid
state drive is what makes or breaks a computer and is why you can get by
with a core i3 or equal from AMD.

Sean has a good point about soundcards these days, too. And even with
headphones on it can still be painful with speech – so try and play with
them in the store using narrator.
--
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the job was already taken."

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