Date   

Re: narrator question

John Isige
 

https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/22798/windows-10-narrator-get-started

If you're not on 10, who knows? I don't know if Microsoft keeps any of its old documentation around. Luckily, you've got NVDA, which is way better and has way better documentation.


Re: Please help a Chess program developer

anthony borg
 

Hi

Could you please send me the link from where I can download it?

Thanks in advance

Anthony

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Jacob Kruger
Sent: 01 December 2017 05:27
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Please help a Chess program developer

 

Ok, got it.

 

Those links render as buttons via NVDA, FWIW.

 

Stay well

 

Jacob Kruger
Blind Biker
Skype: BlindZA
"Resistance is futile, but, acceptance is versatile..."

On 2017/11/30 10:45, Fred Mellender wrote:

Jacob:

 

My home page is at https://sites.google.com/site/fredm/.  At the bottom are the links to the chess programs, including ChessSpeak.  Click on the "down arrow" to the far right of the window and it will download the program.

 

Regards,

 

On Wed, Nov 29, 2017 at 7:25 PM, Jacob Kruger <jacob@...> wrote:

I know a few guys who would be very keen for this to work nicely with screen readers, etc., and, while have had no involvement in NVDA add-on development, I do have some experience with python programming.

 

One issue is was unable to find any real form of a download link to try out your software on your site?

 

Stay well

 

Jacob Kruger
Blind Biker
Skype: BlindZA
"Resistance is futile, but, acceptance is versatile..."

On 2017/11/29 17:49, fredm73@... wrote:

I am the author of a free chess playing program, ChessSpeak.  I have a YouTube video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_NXo8GzIORQ) and a Users' Guide (https://drive.google.com/open?id=1IIazPm57vNei4w51fnxBpUzSRnuL58ncBn3xXhSCEik). This program allows for speech input from the player and replies with voice output. It has been used by many players over the past few years.

I wrote the program so that a sighted person could play with a regular chessboard, across the room from the computer, without using the mouse or keyboard (although it is not entirely hands free). I  did not intend this application for blind people, but have discovered there is interest in the blind community. ChessSpeak was developed without my awareness of NVDA.  One user told me he is using NVDA and that led me to this group.

How can I make ChessSpeak more friendly to blind people?  What are some very general, and then some specific guidelines?  I have read the Developers' Guide (https://www.nvaccess.org/files/nvda/documentation/developerGuide.html) and understand it in a general way, although my Python skills are not strong.

If anyone could offer me specific suggestions or help for my application I would appreciated it. If anyone wants to develop the NVDA linkage to ChessSpeak that would be wonderful.

 

 

 

--

Fred Mellender
Rochester, NY

 


Re: narrator question

anthony borg
 

Hello david

Could you please explain to me what I should use in narrator to read all?

Because I used windows key plus m, and didn’t work.

Thanks in advance

Anthony

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of David Moore
Sent: 01 December 2017 01:01
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: narrator question

 

Thank you so very much. I am very interested.

David Moore

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Fred Mellender
Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2017 4:15 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Please help a Chess program developer

 

I got some good advice from a blind user of ChessSpeak.

 

So, I am trying to make the program almost entirely mouse free, with input via keyboard shortcuts and speech, and output via speech.

 

Please pass on any other advice.

 

I should have a beta test version in a week or so, but not all the desirable interface features will be in that version.  This program is for Windows 7 and later, only. The speech input and output only works in English. This program will always be free.

 

Look at the Users' Guide, Youtube video, and my webpage for details about this program.  All of the links were included in a previous post to this group.

This program allows a person to play a game of chess against the computer.  You can download the current version from my website.

 

Regards,

 

On Thu, Nov 30, 2017 at 1:34 PM, anthony borg <anthonyborg001@...> wrote:

Hi can you please give me some more info about that chess program as I am very interesting to get it please?

Regards

Anthony

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of fredm73@...
Sent: 29 November 2017 16:49
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Please help a Chess program developer

 

I am the author of a free chess playing program, ChessSpeak.  I have a YouTube video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_NXo8GzIORQ) and a Users' Guide (https://drive.google.com/open?id=1IIazPm57vNei4w51fnxBpUzSRnuL58ncBn3xXhSCEik). This program allows for speech input from the player and replies with voice output. It has been used by many players over the past few years.

I wrote the program so that a sighted person could play with a regular chessboard, across the room from the computer, without using the mouse or keyboard (although it is not entirely hands free). I  did not intend this application for blind people, but have discovered there is interest in the blind community. ChessSpeak was developed without my awareness of NVDA.  One user told me he is using NVDA and that led me to this group.

How can I make ChessSpeak more friendly to blind people?  What are some very general, and then some specific guidelines?  I have read the Developers' Guide (https://www.nvaccess.org/files/nvda/documentation/developerGuide.html) and understand it in a general way, although my Python skills are not strong.

If anyone could offer me specific suggestions or help for my application I would appreciated it. If anyone wants to develop the NVDA linkage to ChessSpeak that would be wonderful.



 

--

Fred Mellender
Rochester, NY

 


Re: Please help a Chess program developer

anthony borg
 

Hi

Could you please send me a link of your website?

Thanks in advance

Anthony

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Fred Mellender
Sent: 30 November 2017 22:15
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Please help a Chess program developer

 

I got some good advice from a blind user of ChessSpeak.

 

So, I am trying to make the program almost entirely mouse free, with input via keyboard shortcuts and speech, and output via speech.

 

Please pass on any other advice.

 

I should have a beta test version in a week or so, but not all the desirable interface features will be in that version.  This program is for Windows 7 and later, only. The speech input and output only works in English. This program will always be free.

 

Look at the Users' Guide, Youtube video, and my webpage for details about this program.  All of the links were included in a previous post to this group.

This program allows a person to play a game of chess against the computer.  You can download the current version from my website.

 

Regards,

 

On Thu, Nov 30, 2017 at 1:34 PM, anthony borg <anthonyborg001@...> wrote:

Hi can you please give me some more info about that chess program as I am very interesting to get it please?

Regards

Anthony

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of fredm73@...
Sent: 29 November 2017 16:49
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Please help a Chess program developer

 

I am the author of a free chess playing program, ChessSpeak.  I have a YouTube video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_NXo8GzIORQ) and a Users' Guide (https://drive.google.com/open?id=1IIazPm57vNei4w51fnxBpUzSRnuL58ncBn3xXhSCEik). This program allows for speech input from the player and replies with voice output. It has been used by many players over the past few years.

I wrote the program so that a sighted person could play with a regular chessboard, across the room from the computer, without using the mouse or keyboard (although it is not entirely hands free). I  did not intend this application for blind people, but have discovered there is interest in the blind community. ChessSpeak was developed without my awareness of NVDA.  One user told me he is using NVDA and that led me to this group.

How can I make ChessSpeak more friendly to blind people?  What are some very general, and then some specific guidelines?  I have read the Developers' Guide (https://www.nvaccess.org/files/nvda/documentation/developerGuide.html) and understand it in a general way, although my Python skills are not strong.

If anyone could offer me specific suggestions or help for my application I would appreciated it. If anyone wants to develop the NVDA linkage to ChessSpeak that would be wonderful.



 

--

Fred Mellender
Rochester, NY


Re: Which version should I install?

matthew dyer
 

Hi,


NVDA 2017.3 should work for you.  2017.4 is on rc3 currently.  I  think you should be fifnd for now.  I have 2017.3 and it works for me.  HTH.


Matthew




On 11/30/2017 8:52 PM, Grant Metcalf wrote:
Greetings to all,
I am moving over to
NVDA from WindowEyes and could use advice on which version to install.
I am using a 32 bit PC running Windows 7. I have no plans to advance to a later version of Windows. I have a HIMS Braille Edge display connected to my Windows 7 PC as well as the HIMS Polaris notetaker which also could serve as a possible display.
What other information might be helpful in choosing the best version of NVDA?
 
Thanks for your help!
 
Grant Metcalf (also known as) Grandpa DOS
Phone: (650) 589-6890
California USA
 


Re: Question about Changing the Voice:

John Isige
 

You can buy both Eloquence and the Vocalizer voices for NVDA. You can get both combined as an NVDA addon, though people claim the version of Eloquence in that one has issues. I don't know, I've never tried it. You can also get them separately, both as SAPI5 products which means you can use them with any program that can use SAPI5, or as an addon for NVDA, in the case of the Vocalizer voices.


https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/wiki/ExtraVoices

Here are a couple of links for Eloquence as a stand-alone SAPI5 product, since that page doesn't mention that one.

http://codefactoryglobal.com/app-store/eloquence-for-windows/

Or if you're in the US:

http://www.atguys.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=20&products_id=216

On 12/1/2017 14:59, Lawrence Stoler wrote:
Dear NVDA List,

How do I go about changing the voice when using NVDA to a similar voice I would use if I had JAWS?

Thank you.

Lawrence Stoler



Re: The DOM Debate

Mary Otten <motten53@...>
 

Well it would sure help if they had standards for all these kinds of buttons and things, like tabs and they identify as links or submenus or whatever. And then the screen readers react differently. It makes things a whole lot more complicated. I don’t care what it looks like, as I almost never get sighted  direction like what you described. But when you run across something as badly label and don’t know how to interact with it, that is a problem. And then there are the sites that work great with one browser, letting  you do a form with ease, while the other screen reader  is horrible and doesn’t read any labels on any edit field. I don’t know why that is, but it is crazy. The cognitive load is getting greater and greater. And I’m not getting any younger. Smile

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 1, 2017, at 12:55 PM, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:

Evidently, at least Firefox is moving away from supplying screen-readers information using the DOM.  I don't think Edge uses it nearly as much as screen-readers have in the past either.  Someone who knows a lot more than I do may provide more information.  But even so, browsers will still show screen layout in the same way even if the DOM model is used much less or perhaps not at all.  The DOM model doesn't mandate that the screen be shown in a certain way.  That's formatting.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Mary Otten
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 2:42 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

Hi Jean, I agree with you for the most part, except that until fairly recently, didn’t  all the screen readers use the Dhom model? I used the Mac for several years, and they have a group model as well as dom, and dom was more efficient as far as I was concerned.  the search feature has proven much less reliable for me now that I’ve moved up to windows 10. I can search for things I know are there and get a no items found. Next time on there I get something. Frustrating. I think these pages are just too damn on needlessly complicated.

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 1, 2017, at 12:19 PM, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:

And I wonder how much actual training material such as tutorials explains this or does so to any extent.  Unless things have changed, and I havedn't seen much discussion in quite some time, even small changes in a web site causes mass confusion because so many people aren't taught to explore pages.  Just changing the download link to a download button caused a lot of confusion when Send Space made that change.  I hardly noticed it when it happened because I used the screen-reader search feature to find the word "download."  I found the control just as easily and quickly either way.  Actually, the button is faster and easier because now I just type b once from the top of the page to find it.  But to those who learn by rote, even minute changes may lead to an inability to do something on a site.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 12:35 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

Hi Gene,

\

I have had bad experiences with TVI people.  One of them when asked if she knew the basics of teaching JAWS said: "No, but I and my client will learn it together."  That speaks volumes.



On 12/1/2017 11:07 AM, Gene wrote:
Certainly, for those who want to use programs that are not completely accessible, and that includes most somewhat demanding and more demanding users, those are important things to learn.  But in this case, I think my analysis points to a much deeper problem, the poor Internet instruction a lot of blind people evidently get.  I wonder how much traning material explains things such as I describe.  I don't know but I'm skeptical that it is explained in a lot of material because of the kinds of problems and questions people raise about using the Internet.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 9:42 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

Hi Gene,


Long story short of your analysis: learn to use your screen reader's quick navigation keys and other features.  This allows the reorganization and the advantages of DOM to coexist.



On 12/1/2017 6:44 AM, Gene wrote:
If you know how web pages are actually organized, the contacts problem and other such possible problems can be eliminated very easily.  We, blind people,  see a lot of links moving down from the top of the page.  A sighted person sees these running down the left side of the page in a column. Then we see the main content below the links. A sighted person sees the content toward the middle of the page, moving from left to right on the page.  Then a blind user sees a lot of links in a block at the bottom of the page.  A sighted person sees these links running down the right side of the page in another column, in the same way as the links on the left side are seen.  
 
So a blind person sees a bloc of links at the top, main content below the links then another block of links at the bottom.  A sighted person sees links running down the left side, main content to the right of those links, and on the right another block of links running down the page in a column. 
 
So, if you are using a screen-reader with the ridiculous word wrap feature, turn it off if it isn't off.  then do a screen-reader search for the word contact from the top of the page.  Repeat the search to see how many contact links there are.  The one a sighted person describes as being on the right is the one the blind person will see as the second one, if there are only two and no more and there shouldn't be any more.  If there is only one, there is, of course, no problem.  When you get to the last one, if you repeat the search again, you will get an error message.  If you dismiss the error message, you will still be on the link.  You won't lose your place.
 
You don't have to give up all the advantages of reorganization and usually it is much better to leave reorganization on.
 
Gene  
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 3:08 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

Adriani,
 
You make some extremely valid points which should be carefully considered, yes. Thanks for your contribution to the thread, and fair enough statements.
---
Christopher Gilland
Co-founder of Genuine Safe Haven Ministries
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 3:58 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

Hello,

I an not using screen layout like in your second example due to following reasons:
- By navigating with down arrow link by link I can decide by myself how fast things are being red since I can decide not to hear the whole link label, but only let‘s say the first half of the word. I don‘t have to wait until the last link on the tab is being announced
- If I want to navigate link by link in screen layout, then I have to press the ctrl key and the right arrow key (applies only for link bars like you have described or for forms with many elements on one line). The problem is that pressing ctrl + right arrow NVDA reads word by word and not link by link or button by button. So I am navigating much slower through the content
- When navigating by ctrl + right arrow through a link bar with 5 links to focus the last one, I don‘t know when the bar ends unless I have listened to NVDA reading the whole bar before
- There is the NVDA addon audiotheme 3d which gives me a screen presentation by playing a short sound in my headfones exactly at the position where the object is located on the screen.

Best
Adriani


Von meinem iPhone gesendet

Am 01.12.2017 um 09:20 schrieb Christopher-Mark Gilland <clgilland07@...>:

For those who may have a bit of a hearing impairment, let me make it very clear. In my subject, I'm saying DOM, D O M, not balm, b A L M. Although some may call DOM the balm. LOL! And here therefore lies the reason for my post this morning. - I fully realize that this is somewhat a subjective topic, and that everyone will have his or her own opinions on the matter. It is therefore my hope, that you, the reader, have an open and civil mind, and observe this question from all angles before making your response statement on list. I do not want to see this grow to a heated war debate. Anyone who would like to publish this on their website, or wherever is welcome to do so as long as you give credit back to me.
 

First off, what is DOM?

 
DOM, Document Object Model, without getting too technical, is one way in which assistive technology such as screen readers obtain information from one's computer screen. When we load a website in our browser of choice, for example, some screen readers use the DOM functionality to draw a representation of the content on the screen.
 

So, what does this mean to us non-techies?

 
Put simply, though I am not particularly sure of the exact workflow which occurs behind the scene, what I can tell you is this. Often times, more than not, this approach requires the assistive technology sitting in between the user and the web browser to redraw, as some would say, the entire HTML content in completion. The reason that the word "redraw" is used is because essentially, this is exactly what is happening.
 
Once a website is loaded, a certain amount of memory is allocated aside where the website in question may be rendered. There are a few advantages to this, however there are also some huge setbacks.
 

Beauty and the Beast

 
One of the advantages which probably appears to be fairly obvious from an outsider's perspective is that this will allow assistive technology to use certain methods to gather the web content and then present the material in an easy, robust, and sensably accessible manor. As the writer of this post, let me assure all of you... I definitely see the side of this argument.
 

Here's a practical example of DOM.

 
Let's assume, for just a moment, that you have loaded a website in the browser of your preference, be it Firefox, Internet Explorer, Chrome, etc.
 
On this particular page, there are links which visually appear as horizontal tabs extending across the top of the page. These tabs include the following:
 
  • Home
  • About Us
  • Blog
  • Shop
  • Support
  • Contact Us
 
To fully understand how this works, I encourage you to read the following part of this e-mail by using your down arrow key, and reading line by line individually. Here is what you will see. Remember before I go any further with this, all of these links visually appear as one strip of horizontal tabs running across the top of the web page.
 
Link Home
Link About Us
Link Blog
Link Shop
Link Support
Link Contact Us
 

Here's another example.

 
You have a short form on a website. This form asks for your first name, your last name, and your e-mail address. Here's how DOM most likely would reinterpret this. Again, please read this line by line.
 
Please fill out the following form so we may keep in touch.
 
First name
Edit
Last name
Edit
E-mail
Edit
Submit button
Clear form button.
 

First example without DOM

 
Read this line by line, and make sure this window with my message is maximized before doing so.
 
Link home, Link About Us, Link Blog, Link Shopt, Link Support, Link Contact Us.
 

Second example without DOM

 
Please fill out the following form so we may keep in touch.
 
First name Edit
Last name Edit
E-mail Edit, Submit: button, Clear form: Button.
 

The difference

 
As you can see in the above four illustrations, the first two examples were rendered in such that each link/form control was on its own line. This is why I asked you to read line by line, as doing a say-all, you never would have most likely caught this. So, in other words, let's make this really easy in plain english.
 
Refer back to my very first example where we had the tabs which are being represented as hyperlinks. As you recall, I said that they all went horizontally from left to right across the top of the page.
 
The problem is, DOM renders each element, for lack of better word, as its own separate item. For this reason, each element is on its own dedicated line of text. This is why each link is seeming to appear on its own line by itself. The truth is, these links in all actuality are not on multiple lines. They are actually expanding across the entire marginal width of the screen. Are you starting to see where this could be a potential problem?
 
The second example is slightly less annoying, however the point still stands in existance.
 
We have a form. If you've ever seen how a form generally looks on a print sheet of paper, you'll note that most form field labels such as first name, last name, etc. go down the left side of the sheet of paper. Then, horizontally aligned beside these field labels is the data value.
 
For example, I might have a form printed out which I sign for a Hippa release at my doctor's office. The first field may say, "Name". Out to the immediate right of this will be either a line, or a box. It just depends on how the form is designed, but the over all point is, there will be a second column to the immediate right of where it said, "First name". This is where I would write, "Christopher (Middle name) Gilland. Obviously, some of you may know my middle name, but for privacy sake, I'm not including it here.
 
Given how the above physical print paper illustration is formatted, as most forms online or not would be, does it really make sense to have the form field, then the data directly below? No. It doesn't.
 
Look at my above second example without DOM. Notice that the edit box for all three fields is now actually rendering exactly as it would be visually on the screen. The boxes are to the immediate right of the fields, on the same line. Doesn't that just naturally feel better in your mind, and make more sense? It definitely should to most people.
 
Finally, we have both the submit, and the clear vbuttons.
 
Does it make sense to you that they'd both be virtically stacked one on top of the other? It certainly doesn't to me! In fact, to me, I'd even go so far as to say it seems absolutely gross! Maybe I am more a visual  learner, but even if I wasn't, this doesn't logically compute. However, this is exactly how DOM is rendering it... One button, and one element per line.
 

Helping the sighted to guide you

 
So why is this such a vbig deal? Call me a perfectionist, but let's assume for just a moment that you're on the phone with a customer service representative. They tell you to click the contact us tab located in the upper right corner of the page. This would be a very poor website design, and to any web debvs on here, please for the love of god, take this in consideration! I can't tell you though how many times I've seen this. A web designer will put a contact link at the top of the page which has a form to e-mail them. Further down the page, they have another contact link within the actual main body's content. The difference however is, in this second link, though named identically the same thing, "Contact Us", this second link doesn't direct the visiter to a contact form, but instead gives a phone number, fax number, and possibly a postal address. Totally unacceptable in my view! All this should be consolidated on the one contact page at the top of the screen. This however still proves my point, and like I said, I've seen this more times than I could count, and would gbe rich if I had a dollar for every time I have. OK, so, you now arrow through the page, or do an NVDA find to locate the Contact link. Heck, you might even do NVDA+F7 to bring up your links list. And believe me, though I'm directing this more as an NVDA thing, NVDA isn't the only screen reader which can use the DOM method. JAWS, for example, is incredibly! and I do mean, incredibly! notorious for this. Now, think about this a minute with this really convoluted scanareo regarding the contact link. - How are you going to know which contact link to press enter on to open the contact form, if you're in DOM navigation? Exactly! - You won't. It would be hit and miss.
 
Now, let's take this same situation without DOM mode.
 
In this environment, for lack of better word, you would observe both via audible speech, as well as via braille output if you have a display, that the first "Contact us" link is on the far right edge of the screen. You'd know this as you'd see the other links like Home, About us, Blog, etc. on the same line but to the immediate left before it. Does this make sense what I'm saying?
 

The bottom line

 
Regardless if you choose to use DOM or not is not something anyone should decide for an individual. If you are coming from a screen reader like JAWS as I have, you definitely may find turning off DOM navigation to be extremely awquard at best. I'd even go as far as to say that it may drive you absolutely crazy at first, and make your web browsing experience seem dreadful. I would however seriously encourage people to at least give it a try for a few days without DOM navigation. Inevitably, if you're not used to it, it's going to take some getting used to, however if you're anything like me, I feel that eventually, you will really start to see the benefits of not using DOM. DOM is great in my opinion, don't get me wrong, but if you want, or need in a mission critical environment to have an exact representation of the content, then fact is fact, you're not going to get it with DOM mode, end of the story, it's just not gonna happen, period. You might as well just accept it. The other thing to also realize is, you are taking up unnecessary memory/processor power to render things differently as an offline model. Granted, OK, it may not be much, but that's not the point. It's still taking up what to some would be considered as unnecessary resources.
 

What are your thoughts?

 
Do you use DOM? If not, I'd be interested in your reasons why not.
 
Chris.

-- 
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"

-- 
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


Question about Changing the Voice:

Lawrence Stoler
 

Dear NVDA List,

How do I go about changing the voice when using NVDA to a similar voice I would use if I had JAWS?

Thank you.

Lawrence Stoler


Re: The DOM Debate

Gene
 

Evidently, at least Firefox is moving away from supplying screen-readers information using the DOM.  I don't think Edge uses it nearly as much as screen-readers have in the past either.  Someone who knows a lot more than I do may provide more information.  But even so, browsers will still show screen layout in the same way even if the DOM model is used much less or perhaps not at all.  The DOM model doesn't mandate that the screen be shown in a certain way.  That's formatting.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
From: Mary Otten
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 2:42 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

Hi Jean, I agree with you for the most part, except that until fairly recently, didn’t  all the screen readers use the Dhom model? I used the Mac for several years, and they have a group model as well as dom, and dom was more efficient as far as I was concerned.  the search feature has proven much less reliable for me now that I’ve moved up to windows 10. I can search for things I know are there and get a no items found. Next time on there I get something. Frustrating. I think these pages are just too damn on needlessly complicated.

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 1, 2017, at 12:19 PM, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:

And I wonder how much actual training material such as tutorials explains this or does so to any extent.  Unless things have changed, and I havedn't seen much discussion in quite some time, even small changes in a web site causes mass confusion because so many people aren't taught to explore pages.  Just changing the download link to a download button caused a lot of confusion when Send Space made that change.  I hardly noticed it when it happened because I used the screen-reader search feature to find the word "download."  I found the control just as easily and quickly either way.  Actually, the button is faster and easier because now I just type b once from the top of the page to find it.  But to those who learn by rote, even minute changes may lead to an inability to do something on a site.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 12:35 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

Hi Gene,

\

I have had bad experiences with TVI people.  One of them when asked if she knew the basics of teaching JAWS said: "No, but I and my client will learn it together."  That speaks volumes.



On 12/1/2017 11:07 AM, Gene wrote:
Certainly, for those who want to use programs that are not completely accessible, and that includes most somewhat demanding and more demanding users, those are important things to learn.  But in this case, I think my analysis points to a much deeper problem, the poor Internet instruction a lot of blind people evidently get.  I wonder how much traning material explains things such as I describe.  I don't know but I'm skeptical that it is explained in a lot of material because of the kinds of problems and questions people raise about using the Internet.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 9:42 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

Hi Gene,


Long story short of your analysis: learn to use your screen reader's quick navigation keys and other features.  This allows the reorganization and the advantages of DOM to coexist.



On 12/1/2017 6:44 AM, Gene wrote:
If you know how web pages are actually organized, the contacts problem and other such possible problems can be eliminated very easily.  We, blind people,  see a lot of links moving down from the top of the page.  A sighted person sees these running down the left side of the page in a column. Then we see the main content below the links. A sighted person sees the content toward the middle of the page, moving from left to right on the page.  Then a blind user sees a lot of links in a block at the bottom of the page.  A sighted person sees these links running down the right side of the page in another column, in the same way as the links on the left side are seen.  
 
So a blind person sees a bloc of links at the top, main content below the links then another block of links at the bottom.  A sighted person sees links running down the left side, main content to the right of those links, and on the right another block of links running down the page in a column. 
 
So, if you are using a screen-reader with the ridiculous word wrap feature, turn it off if it isn't off.  then do a screen-reader search for the word contact from the top of the page.  Repeat the search to see how many contact links there are.  The one a sighted person describes as being on the right is the one the blind person will see as the second one, if there are only two and no more and there shouldn't be any more.  If there is only one, there is, of course, no problem.  When you get to the last one, if you repeat the search again, you will get an error message.  If you dismiss the error message, you will still be on the link.  You won't lose your place.
 
You don't have to give up all the advantages of reorganization and usually it is much better to leave reorganization on.
 
Gene  
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 3:08 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

Adriani,
 
You make some extremely valid points which should be carefully considered, yes. Thanks for your contribution to the thread, and fair enough statements.
---
Christopher Gilland
Co-founder of Genuine Safe Haven Ministries
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 3:58 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

Hello,

I an not using screen layout like in your second example due to following reasons:
- By navigating with down arrow link by link I can decide by myself how fast things are being red since I can decide not to hear the whole link label, but only let‘s say the first half of the word. I don‘t have to wait until the last link on the tab is being announced
- If I want to navigate link by link in screen layout, then I have to press the ctrl key and the right arrow key (applies only for link bars like you have described or for forms with many elements on one line). The problem is that pressing ctrl + right arrow NVDA reads word by word and not link by link or button by button. So I am navigating much slower through the content
- When navigating by ctrl + right arrow through a link bar with 5 links to focus the last one, I don‘t know when the bar ends unless I have listened to NVDA reading the whole bar before
- There is the NVDA addon audiotheme 3d which gives me a screen presentation by playing a short sound in my headfones exactly at the position where the object is located on the screen.

Best
Adriani


Von meinem iPhone gesendet

Am 01.12.2017 um 09:20 schrieb Christopher-Mark Gilland <clgilland07@...>:

For those who may have a bit of a hearing impairment, let me make it very clear. In my subject, I'm saying DOM, D O M, not balm, b A L M. Although some may call DOM the balm. LOL! And here therefore lies the reason for my post this morning. - I fully realize that this is somewhat a subjective topic, and that everyone will have his or her own opinions on the matter. It is therefore my hope, that you, the reader, have an open and civil mind, and observe this question from all angles before making your response statement on list. I do not want to see this grow to a heated war debate. Anyone who would like to publish this on their website, or wherever is welcome to do so as long as you give credit back to me.
 

First off, what is DOM?

 
DOM, Document Object Model, without getting too technical, is one way in which assistive technology such as screen readers obtain information from one's computer screen. When we load a website in our browser of choice, for example, some screen readers use the DOM functionality to draw a representation of the content on the screen.
 

So, what does this mean to us non-techies?

 
Put simply, though I am not particularly sure of the exact workflow which occurs behind the scene, what I can tell you is this. Often times, more than not, this approach requires the assistive technology sitting in between the user and the web browser to redraw, as some would say, the entire HTML content in completion. The reason that the word "redraw" is used is because essentially, this is exactly what is happening.
 
Once a website is loaded, a certain amount of memory is allocated aside where the website in question may be rendered. There are a few advantages to this, however there are also some huge setbacks.
 

Beauty and the Beast

 
One of the advantages which probably appears to be fairly obvious from an outsider's perspective is that this will allow assistive technology to use certain methods to gather the web content and then present the material in an easy, robust, and sensably accessible manor. As the writer of this post, let me assure all of you... I definitely see the side of this argument.
 

Here's a practical example of DOM.

 
Let's assume, for just a moment, that you have loaded a website in the browser of your preference, be it Firefox, Internet Explorer, Chrome, etc.
 
On this particular page, there are links which visually appear as horizontal tabs extending across the top of the page. These tabs include the following:
 
  • Home
  • About Us
  • Blog
  • Shop
  • Support
  • Contact Us
 
To fully understand how this works, I encourage you to read the following part of this e-mail by using your down arrow key, and reading line by line individually. Here is what you will see. Remember before I go any further with this, all of these links visually appear as one strip of horizontal tabs running across the top of the web page.
 
Link Home
Link About Us
Link Blog
Link Shop
Link Support
Link Contact Us
 

Here's another example.

 
You have a short form on a website. This form asks for your first name, your last name, and your e-mail address. Here's how DOM most likely would reinterpret this. Again, please read this line by line.
 
Please fill out the following form so we may keep in touch.
 
First name
Edit
Last name
Edit
E-mail
Edit
Submit button
Clear form button.
 

First example without DOM

 
Read this line by line, and make sure this window with my message is maximized before doing so.
 
Link home, Link About Us, Link Blog, Link Shopt, Link Support, Link Contact Us.
 

Second example without DOM

 
Please fill out the following form so we may keep in touch.
 
First name Edit
Last name Edit
E-mail Edit, Submit: button, Clear form: Button.
 

The difference

 
As you can see in the above four illustrations, the first two examples were rendered in such that each link/form control was on its own line. This is why I asked you to read line by line, as doing a say-all, you never would have most likely caught this. So, in other words, let's make this really easy in plain english.
 
Refer back to my very first example where we had the tabs which are being represented as hyperlinks. As you recall, I said that they all went horizontally from left to right across the top of the page.
 
The problem is, DOM renders each element, for lack of better word, as its own separate item. For this reason, each element is on its own dedicated line of text. This is why each link is seeming to appear on its own line by itself. The truth is, these links in all actuality are not on multiple lines. They are actually expanding across the entire marginal width of the screen. Are you starting to see where this could be a potential problem?
 
The second example is slightly less annoying, however the point still stands in existance.
 
We have a form. If you've ever seen how a form generally looks on a print sheet of paper, you'll note that most form field labels such as first name, last name, etc. go down the left side of the sheet of paper. Then, horizontally aligned beside these field labels is the data value.
 
For example, I might have a form printed out which I sign for a Hippa release at my doctor's office. The first field may say, "Name". Out to the immediate right of this will be either a line, or a box. It just depends on how the form is designed, but the over all point is, there will be a second column to the immediate right of where it said, "First name". This is where I would write, "Christopher (Middle name) Gilland. Obviously, some of you may know my middle name, but for privacy sake, I'm not including it here.
 
Given how the above physical print paper illustration is formatted, as most forms online or not would be, does it really make sense to have the form field, then the data directly below? No. It doesn't.
 
Look at my above second example without DOM. Notice that the edit box for all three fields is now actually rendering exactly as it would be visually on the screen. The boxes are to the immediate right of the fields, on the same line. Doesn't that just naturally feel better in your mind, and make more sense? It definitely should to most people.
 
Finally, we have both the submit, and the clear vbuttons.
 
Does it make sense to you that they'd both be virtically stacked one on top of the other? It certainly doesn't to me! In fact, to me, I'd even go so far as to say it seems absolutely gross! Maybe I am more a visual  learner, but even if I wasn't, this doesn't logically compute. However, this is exactly how DOM is rendering it... One button, and one element per line.
 

Helping the sighted to guide you

 
So why is this such a vbig deal? Call me a perfectionist, but let's assume for just a moment that you're on the phone with a customer service representative. They tell you to click the contact us tab located in the upper right corner of the page. This would be a very poor website design, and to any web debvs on here, please for the love of god, take this in consideration! I can't tell you though how many times I've seen this. A web designer will put a contact link at the top of the page which has a form to e-mail them. Further down the page, they have another contact link within the actual main body's content. The difference however is, in this second link, though named identically the same thing, "Contact Us", this second link doesn't direct the visiter to a contact form, but instead gives a phone number, fax number, and possibly a postal address. Totally unacceptable in my view! All this should be consolidated on the one contact page at the top of the screen. This however still proves my point, and like I said, I've seen this more times than I could count, and would gbe rich if I had a dollar for every time I have. OK, so, you now arrow through the page, or do an NVDA find to locate the Contact link. Heck, you might even do NVDA+F7 to bring up your links list. And believe me, though I'm directing this more as an NVDA thing, NVDA isn't the only screen reader which can use the DOM method. JAWS, for example, is incredibly! and I do mean, incredibly! notorious for this. Now, think about this a minute with this really convoluted scanareo regarding the contact link. - How are you going to know which contact link to press enter on to open the contact form, if you're in DOM navigation? Exactly! - You won't. It would be hit and miss.
 
Now, let's take this same situation without DOM mode.
 
In this environment, for lack of better word, you would observe both via audible speech, as well as via braille output if you have a display, that the first "Contact us" link is on the far right edge of the screen. You'd know this as you'd see the other links like Home, About us, Blog, etc. on the same line but to the immediate left before it. Does this make sense what I'm saying?
 

The bottom line

 
Regardless if you choose to use DOM or not is not something anyone should decide for an individual. If you are coming from a screen reader like JAWS as I have, you definitely may find turning off DOM navigation to be extremely awquard at best. I'd even go as far as to say that it may drive you absolutely crazy at first, and make your web browsing experience seem dreadful. I would however seriously encourage people to at least give it a try for a few days without DOM navigation. Inevitably, if you're not used to it, it's going to take some getting used to, however if you're anything like me, I feel that eventually, you will really start to see the benefits of not using DOM. DOM is great in my opinion, don't get me wrong, but if you want, or need in a mission critical environment to have an exact representation of the content, then fact is fact, you're not going to get it with DOM mode, end of the story, it's just not gonna happen, period. You might as well just accept it. The other thing to also realize is, you are taking up unnecessary memory/processor power to render things differently as an offline model. Granted, OK, it may not be much, but that's not the point. It's still taking up what to some would be considered as unnecessary resources.
 

What are your thoughts?

 
Do you use DOM? If not, I'd be interested in your reasons why not.
 
Chris.

-- 
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"

-- 
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


Re: The DOM Debate

Gene
 

I didn't keep the message from the person who said he/she, I'm sorry, I don't remember who sent it, said that he/she would look at more sites with screen layout on. 
 
I don't know why, but even when I turn screen layout off, I don't see most sites laid out as I described.  Or, what I should say is, I haven't seen the few sites I've looked at laid out that way.  Of course, you may experiment and from comments I've seen, screen layout is useful for things like Internet user forms where you want to see information presented in this way.  But my intent in describing site layout wasn't to imply that screen layout should be on for  a lot more sites nor that there is an advantage on most sites.  My reason was to point out how understanding how sites are generally laid out can help you find things when someone gives you spacial references and where there may be more than one link that is different that says the same or close to the same thing.  I have never seen a site where two contact links lead to two different places.  I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but I question whether it happens more than rarely or rather rarely.  But if spacial concepts matter in finding something faster, knowing the layout of a site may be useful at times such as described in the first message.  But most of the time, if someone gives me spacial directions, I use the site as I always would, using headings, skipping blocks of links and the find feature, or if necessary, just reading down some of the page. 
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
From: Gene
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 2:19 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

And I wonder how much actual training material such as tutorials explains this or does so to any extent.  Unless things have changed, and I havedn't seen much discussion in quite some time, even small changes in a web site causes mass confusion because so many people aren't taught to explore pages.  Just changing the download link to a download button caused a lot of confusion when Send Space made that change.  I hardly noticed it when it happened because I used the screen-reader search feature to find the word "download."  I found the control just as easily and quickly either way.  Actually, the button is faster and easier because now I just type b once from the top of the page to find it.  But to those who learn by rote, even minute changes may lead to an inability to do something on a site.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 12:35 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

Hi Gene,

\

I have had bad experiences with TVI people.  One of them when asked if she knew the basics of teaching JAWS said: "No, but I and my client will learn it together."  That speaks volumes.



On 12/1/2017 11:07 AM, Gene wrote:
Certainly, for those who want to use programs that are not completely accessible, and that includes most somewhat demanding and more demanding users, those are important things to learn.  But in this case, I think my analysis points to a much deeper problem, the poor Internet instruction a lot of blind people evidently get.  I wonder how much traning material explains things such as I describe.  I don't know but I'm skeptical that it is explained in a lot of material because of the kinds of problems and questions people raise about using the Internet.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 9:42 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

Hi Gene,


Long story short of your analysis: learn to use your screen reader's quick navigation keys and other features.  This allows the reorganization and the advantages of DOM to coexist.



On 12/1/2017 6:44 AM, Gene wrote:
If you know how web pages are actually organized, the contacts problem and other such possible problems can be eliminated very easily.  We, blind people,  see a lot of links moving down from the top of the page.  A sighted person sees these running down the left side of the page in a column. Then we see the main content below the links. A sighted person sees the content toward the middle of the page, moving from left to right on the page.  Then a blind user sees a lot of links in a block at the bottom of the page.  A sighted person sees these links running down the right side of the page in another column, in the same way as the links on the left side are seen.  
 
So a blind person sees a bloc of links at the top, main content below the links then another block of links at the bottom.  A sighted person sees links running down the left side, main content to the right of those links, and on the right another block of links running down the page in a column. 
 
So, if you are using a screen-reader with the ridiculous word wrap feature, turn it off if it isn't off.  then do a screen-reader search for the word contact from the top of the page.  Repeat the search to see how many contact links there are.  The one a sighted person describes as being on the right is the one the blind person will see as the second one, if there are only two and no more and there shouldn't be any more.  If there is only one, there is, of course, no problem.  When you get to the last one, if you repeat the search again, you will get an error message.  If you dismiss the error message, you will still be on the link.  You won't lose your place.
 
You don't have to give up all the advantages of reorganization and usually it is much better to leave reorganization on.
 
Gene  
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 3:08 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

Adriani,
 
You make some extremely valid points which should be carefully considered, yes. Thanks for your contribution to the thread, and fair enough statements.
---
Christopher Gilland
Co-founder of Genuine Safe Haven Ministries
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 3:58 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

Hello,

I an not using screen layout like in your second example due to following reasons:
- By navigating with down arrow link by link I can decide by myself how fast things are being red since I can decide not to hear the whole link label, but only let‘s say the first half of the word. I don‘t have to wait until the last link on the tab is being announced
- If I want to navigate link by link in screen layout, then I have to press the ctrl key and the right arrow key (applies only for link bars like you have described or for forms with many elements on one line). The problem is that pressing ctrl + right arrow NVDA reads word by word and not link by link or button by button. So I am navigating much slower through the content
- When navigating by ctrl + right arrow through a link bar with 5 links to focus the last one, I don‘t know when the bar ends unless I have listened to NVDA reading the whole bar before
- There is the NVDA addon audiotheme 3d which gives me a screen presentation by playing a short sound in my headfones exactly at the position where the object is located on the screen.

Best
Adriani


Von meinem iPhone gesendet

Am 01.12.2017 um 09:20 schrieb Christopher-Mark Gilland <clgilland07@...>:

For those who may have a bit of a hearing impairment, let me make it very clear. In my subject, I'm saying DOM, D O M, not balm, b A L M. Although some may call DOM the balm. LOL! And here therefore lies the reason for my post this morning. - I fully realize that this is somewhat a subjective topic, and that everyone will have his or her own opinions on the matter. It is therefore my hope, that you, the reader, have an open and civil mind, and observe this question from all angles before making your response statement on list. I do not want to see this grow to a heated war debate. Anyone who would like to publish this on their website, or wherever is welcome to do so as long as you give credit back to me.
 

First off, what is DOM?

 
DOM, Document Object Model, without getting too technical, is one way in which assistive technology such as screen readers obtain information from one's computer screen. When we load a website in our browser of choice, for example, some screen readers use the DOM functionality to draw a representation of the content on the screen.
 

So, what does this mean to us non-techies?

 
Put simply, though I am not particularly sure of the exact workflow which occurs behind the scene, what I can tell you is this. Often times, more than not, this approach requires the assistive technology sitting in between the user and the web browser to redraw, as some would say, the entire HTML content in completion. The reason that the word "redraw" is used is because essentially, this is exactly what is happening.
 
Once a website is loaded, a certain amount of memory is allocated aside where the website in question may be rendered. There are a few advantages to this, however there are also some huge setbacks.
 

Beauty and the Beast

 
One of the advantages which probably appears to be fairly obvious from an outsider's perspective is that this will allow assistive technology to use certain methods to gather the web content and then present the material in an easy, robust, and sensably accessible manor. As the writer of this post, let me assure all of you... I definitely see the side of this argument.
 

Here's a practical example of DOM.

 
Let's assume, for just a moment, that you have loaded a website in the browser of your preference, be it Firefox, Internet Explorer, Chrome, etc.
 
On this particular page, there are links which visually appear as horizontal tabs extending across the top of the page. These tabs include the following:
 
  • Home
  • About Us
  • Blog
  • Shop
  • Support
  • Contact Us
 
To fully understand how this works, I encourage you to read the following part of this e-mail by using your down arrow key, and reading line by line individually. Here is what you will see. Remember before I go any further with this, all of these links visually appear as one strip of horizontal tabs running across the top of the web page.
 
Link Home
Link About Us
Link Blog
Link Shop
Link Support
Link Contact Us
 

Here's another example.

 
You have a short form on a website. This form asks for your first name, your last name, and your e-mail address. Here's how DOM most likely would reinterpret this. Again, please read this line by line.
 
Please fill out the following form so we may keep in touch.
 
First name
Edit
Last name
Edit
E-mail
Edit
Submit button
Clear form button.
 

First example without DOM

 
Read this line by line, and make sure this window with my message is maximized before doing so.
 
Link home, Link About Us, Link Blog, Link Shopt, Link Support, Link Contact Us.
 

Second example without DOM

 
Please fill out the following form so we may keep in touch.
 
First name Edit
Last name Edit
E-mail Edit, Submit: button, Clear form: Button.
 

The difference

 
As you can see in the above four illustrations, the first two examples were rendered in such that each link/form control was on its own line. This is why I asked you to read line by line, as doing a say-all, you never would have most likely caught this. So, in other words, let's make this really easy in plain english.
 
Refer back to my very first example where we had the tabs which are being represented as hyperlinks. As you recall, I said that they all went horizontally from left to right across the top of the page.
 
The problem is, DOM renders each element, for lack of better word, as its own separate item. For this reason, each element is on its own dedicated line of text. This is why each link is seeming to appear on its own line by itself. The truth is, these links in all actuality are not on multiple lines. They are actually expanding across the entire marginal width of the screen. Are you starting to see where this could be a potential problem?
 
The second example is slightly less annoying, however the point still stands in existance.
 
We have a form. If you've ever seen how a form generally looks on a print sheet of paper, you'll note that most form field labels such as first name, last name, etc. go down the left side of the sheet of paper. Then, horizontally aligned beside these field labels is the data value.
 
For example, I might have a form printed out which I sign for a Hippa release at my doctor's office. The first field may say, "Name". Out to the immediate right of this will be either a line, or a box. It just depends on how the form is designed, but the over all point is, there will be a second column to the immediate right of where it said, "First name". This is where I would write, "Christopher (Middle name) Gilland. Obviously, some of you may know my middle name, but for privacy sake, I'm not including it here.
 
Given how the above physical print paper illustration is formatted, as most forms online or not would be, does it really make sense to have the form field, then the data directly below? No. It doesn't.
 
Look at my above second example without DOM. Notice that the edit box for all three fields is now actually rendering exactly as it would be visually on the screen. The boxes are to the immediate right of the fields, on the same line. Doesn't that just naturally feel better in your mind, and make more sense? It definitely should to most people.
 
Finally, we have both the submit, and the clear vbuttons.
 
Does it make sense to you that they'd both be virtically stacked one on top of the other? It certainly doesn't to me! In fact, to me, I'd even go so far as to say it seems absolutely gross! Maybe I am more a visual  learner, but even if I wasn't, this doesn't logically compute. However, this is exactly how DOM is rendering it... One button, and one element per line.
 

Helping the sighted to guide you

 
So why is this such a vbig deal? Call me a perfectionist, but let's assume for just a moment that you're on the phone with a customer service representative. They tell you to click the contact us tab located in the upper right corner of the page. This would be a very poor website design, and to any web debvs on here, please for the love of god, take this in consideration! I can't tell you though how many times I've seen this. A web designer will put a contact link at the top of the page which has a form to e-mail them. Further down the page, they have another contact link within the actual main body's content. The difference however is, in this second link, though named identically the same thing, "Contact Us", this second link doesn't direct the visiter to a contact form, but instead gives a phone number, fax number, and possibly a postal address. Totally unacceptable in my view! All this should be consolidated on the one contact page at the top of the screen. This however still proves my point, and like I said, I've seen this more times than I could count, and would gbe rich if I had a dollar for every time I have. OK, so, you now arrow through the page, or do an NVDA find to locate the Contact link. Heck, you might even do NVDA+F7 to bring up your links list. And believe me, though I'm directing this more as an NVDA thing, NVDA isn't the only screen reader which can use the DOM method. JAWS, for example, is incredibly! and I do mean, incredibly! notorious for this. Now, think about this a minute with this really convoluted scanareo regarding the contact link. - How are you going to know which contact link to press enter on to open the contact form, if you're in DOM navigation? Exactly! - You won't. It would be hit and miss.
 
Now, let's take this same situation without DOM mode.
 
In this environment, for lack of better word, you would observe both via audible speech, as well as via braille output if you have a display, that the first "Contact us" link is on the far right edge of the screen. You'd know this as you'd see the other links like Home, About us, Blog, etc. on the same line but to the immediate left before it. Does this make sense what I'm saying?
 

The bottom line

 
Regardless if you choose to use DOM or not is not something anyone should decide for an individual. If you are coming from a screen reader like JAWS as I have, you definitely may find turning off DOM navigation to be extremely awquard at best. I'd even go as far as to say that it may drive you absolutely crazy at first, and make your web browsing experience seem dreadful. I would however seriously encourage people to at least give it a try for a few days without DOM navigation. Inevitably, if you're not used to it, it's going to take some getting used to, however if you're anything like me, I feel that eventually, you will really start to see the benefits of not using DOM. DOM is great in my opinion, don't get me wrong, but if you want, or need in a mission critical environment to have an exact representation of the content, then fact is fact, you're not going to get it with DOM mode, end of the story, it's just not gonna happen, period. You might as well just accept it. The other thing to also realize is, you are taking up unnecessary memory/processor power to render things differently as an offline model. Granted, OK, it may not be much, but that's not the point. It's still taking up what to some would be considered as unnecessary resources.
 

What are your thoughts?

 
Do you use DOM? If not, I'd be interested in your reasons why not.
 
Chris.

-- 
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"

-- 
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


Re: The DOM Debate

Mary Otten <motten53@...>
 

Hi Jean, I agree with you for the most part, except that until fairly recently, didn’t  all the screen readers use the Dhom model? I used the Mac for several years, and they have a group model as well as dom, and dom was more efficient as far as I was concerned.  the search feature has proven much less reliable for me now that I’ve moved up to windows 10. I can search for things I know are there and get a no items found. Next time on there I get something. Frustrating. I think these pages are just too damn on needlessly complicated.

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 1, 2017, at 12:19 PM, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:

And I wonder how much actual training material such as tutorials explains this or does so to any extent.  Unless things have changed, and I havedn't seen much discussion in quite some time, even small changes in a web site causes mass confusion because so many people aren't taught to explore pages.  Just changing the download link to a download button caused a lot of confusion when Send Space made that change.  I hardly noticed it when it happened because I used the screen-reader search feature to find the word "download."  I found the control just as easily and quickly either way.  Actually, the button is faster and easier because now I just type b once from the top of the page to find it.  But to those who learn by rote, even minute changes may lead to an inability to do something on a site.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 12:35 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

Hi Gene,

\

I have had bad experiences with TVI people.  One of them when asked if she knew the basics of teaching JAWS said: "No, but I and my client will learn it together."  That speaks volumes.



On 12/1/2017 11:07 AM, Gene wrote:
Certainly, for those who want to use programs that are not completely accessible, and that includes most somewhat demanding and more demanding users, those are important things to learn.  But in this case, I think my analysis points to a much deeper problem, the poor Internet instruction a lot of blind people evidently get.  I wonder how much traning material explains things such as I describe.  I don't know but I'm skeptical that it is explained in a lot of material because of the kinds of problems and questions people raise about using the Internet.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 9:42 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

Hi Gene,


Long story short of your analysis: learn to use your screen reader's quick navigation keys and other features.  This allows the reorganization and the advantages of DOM to coexist.



On 12/1/2017 6:44 AM, Gene wrote:
If you know how web pages are actually organized, the contacts problem and other such possible problems can be eliminated very easily.  We, blind people,  see a lot of links moving down from the top of the page.  A sighted person sees these running down the left side of the page in a column. Then we see the main content below the links. A sighted person sees the content toward the middle of the page, moving from left to right on the page.  Then a blind user sees a lot of links in a block at the bottom of the page.  A sighted person sees these links running down the right side of the page in another column, in the same way as the links on the left side are seen.  
 
So a blind person sees a bloc of links at the top, main content below the links then another block of links at the bottom.  A sighted person sees links running down the left side, main content to the right of those links, and on the right another block of links running down the page in a column. 
 
So, if you are using a screen-reader with the ridiculous word wrap feature, turn it off if it isn't off.  then do a screen-reader search for the word contact from the top of the page.  Repeat the search to see how many contact links there are.  The one a sighted person describes as being on the right is the one the blind person will see as the second one, if there are only two and no more and there shouldn't be any more.  If there is only one, there is, of course, no problem.  When you get to the last one, if you repeat the search again, you will get an error message.  If you dismiss the error message, you will still be on the link.  You won't lose your place.
 
You don't have to give up all the advantages of reorganization and usually it is much better to leave reorganization on.
 
Gene  
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 3:08 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

Adriani,
 
You make some extremely valid points which should be carefully considered, yes. Thanks for your contribution to the thread, and fair enough statements.
---
Christopher Gilland
Co-founder of Genuine Safe Haven Ministries
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 3:58 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

Hello,

I an not using screen layout like in your second example due to following reasons:
- By navigating with down arrow link by link I can decide by myself how fast things are being red since I can decide not to hear the whole link label, but only let‘s say the first half of the word. I don‘t have to wait until the last link on the tab is being announced
- If I want to navigate link by link in screen layout, then I have to press the ctrl key and the right arrow key (applies only for link bars like you have described or for forms with many elements on one line). The problem is that pressing ctrl + right arrow NVDA reads word by word and not link by link or button by button. So I am navigating much slower through the content
- When navigating by ctrl + right arrow through a link bar with 5 links to focus the last one, I don‘t know when the bar ends unless I have listened to NVDA reading the whole bar before
- There is the NVDA addon audiotheme 3d which gives me a screen presentation by playing a short sound in my headfones exactly at the position where the object is located on the screen.

Best
Adriani


Von meinem iPhone gesendet

Am 01.12.2017 um 09:20 schrieb Christopher-Mark Gilland <clgilland07@...>:

For those who may have a bit of a hearing impairment, let me make it very clear. In my subject, I'm saying DOM, D O M, not balm, b A L M. Although some may call DOM the balm. LOL! And here therefore lies the reason for my post this morning. - I fully realize that this is somewhat a subjective topic, and that everyone will have his or her own opinions on the matter. It is therefore my hope, that you, the reader, have an open and civil mind, and observe this question from all angles before making your response statement on list. I do not want to see this grow to a heated war debate. Anyone who would like to publish this on their website, or wherever is welcome to do so as long as you give credit back to me.
 

First off, what is DOM?

 
DOM, Document Object Model, without getting too technical, is one way in which assistive technology such as screen readers obtain information from one's computer screen. When we load a website in our browser of choice, for example, some screen readers use the DOM functionality to draw a representation of the content on the screen.
 

So, what does this mean to us non-techies?

 
Put simply, though I am not particularly sure of the exact workflow which occurs behind the scene, what I can tell you is this. Often times, more than not, this approach requires the assistive technology sitting in between the user and the web browser to redraw, as some would say, the entire HTML content in completion. The reason that the word "redraw" is used is because essentially, this is exactly what is happening.
 
Once a website is loaded, a certain amount of memory is allocated aside where the website in question may be rendered. There are a few advantages to this, however there are also some huge setbacks.
 

Beauty and the Beast

 
One of the advantages which probably appears to be fairly obvious from an outsider's perspective is that this will allow assistive technology to use certain methods to gather the web content and then present the material in an easy, robust, and sensably accessible manor. As the writer of this post, let me assure all of you... I definitely see the side of this argument.
 

Here's a practical example of DOM.

 
Let's assume, for just a moment, that you have loaded a website in the browser of your preference, be it Firefox, Internet Explorer, Chrome, etc.
 
On this particular page, there are links which visually appear as horizontal tabs extending across the top of the page. These tabs include the following:
 
  • Home
  • About Us
  • Blog
  • Shop
  • Support
  • Contact Us
 
To fully understand how this works, I encourage you to read the following part of this e-mail by using your down arrow key, and reading line by line individually. Here is what you will see. Remember before I go any further with this, all of these links visually appear as one strip of horizontal tabs running across the top of the web page.
 
Link Home
Link About Us
Link Blog
Link Shop
Link Support
Link Contact Us
 

Here's another example.

 
You have a short form on a website. This form asks for your first name, your last name, and your e-mail address. Here's how DOM most likely would reinterpret this. Again, please read this line by line.
 
Please fill out the following form so we may keep in touch.
 
First name
Edit
Last name
Edit
E-mail
Edit
Submit button
Clear form button.
 

First example without DOM

 
Read this line by line, and make sure this window with my message is maximized before doing so.
 
Link home, Link About Us, Link Blog, Link Shopt, Link Support, Link Contact Us.
 

Second example without DOM

 
Please fill out the following form so we may keep in touch.
 
First name Edit
Last name Edit
E-mail Edit, Submit: button, Clear form: Button.
 

The difference

 
As you can see in the above four illustrations, the first two examples were rendered in such that each link/form control was on its own line. This is why I asked you to read line by line, as doing a say-all, you never would have most likely caught this. So, in other words, let's make this really easy in plain english.
 
Refer back to my very first example where we had the tabs which are being represented as hyperlinks. As you recall, I said that they all went horizontally from left to right across the top of the page.
 
The problem is, DOM renders each element, for lack of better word, as its own separate item. For this reason, each element is on its own dedicated line of text. This is why each link is seeming to appear on its own line by itself. The truth is, these links in all actuality are not on multiple lines. They are actually expanding across the entire marginal width of the screen. Are you starting to see where this could be a potential problem?
 
The second example is slightly less annoying, however the point still stands in existance.
 
We have a form. If you've ever seen how a form generally looks on a print sheet of paper, you'll note that most form field labels such as first name, last name, etc. go down the left side of the sheet of paper. Then, horizontally aligned beside these field labels is the data value.
 
For example, I might have a form printed out which I sign for a Hippa release at my doctor's office. The first field may say, "Name". Out to the immediate right of this will be either a line, or a box. It just depends on how the form is designed, but the over all point is, there will be a second column to the immediate right of where it said, "First name". This is where I would write, "Christopher (Middle name) Gilland. Obviously, some of you may know my middle name, but for privacy sake, I'm not including it here.
 
Given how the above physical print paper illustration is formatted, as most forms online or not would be, does it really make sense to have the form field, then the data directly below? No. It doesn't.
 
Look at my above second example without DOM. Notice that the edit box for all three fields is now actually rendering exactly as it would be visually on the screen. The boxes are to the immediate right of the fields, on the same line. Doesn't that just naturally feel better in your mind, and make more sense? It definitely should to most people.
 
Finally, we have both the submit, and the clear vbuttons.
 
Does it make sense to you that they'd both be virtically stacked one on top of the other? It certainly doesn't to me! In fact, to me, I'd even go so far as to say it seems absolutely gross! Maybe I am more a visual  learner, but even if I wasn't, this doesn't logically compute. However, this is exactly how DOM is rendering it... One button, and one element per line.
 

Helping the sighted to guide you

 
So why is this such a vbig deal? Call me a perfectionist, but let's assume for just a moment that you're on the phone with a customer service representative. They tell you to click the contact us tab located in the upper right corner of the page. This would be a very poor website design, and to any web debvs on here, please for the love of god, take this in consideration! I can't tell you though how many times I've seen this. A web designer will put a contact link at the top of the page which has a form to e-mail them. Further down the page, they have another contact link within the actual main body's content. The difference however is, in this second link, though named identically the same thing, "Contact Us", this second link doesn't direct the visiter to a contact form, but instead gives a phone number, fax number, and possibly a postal address. Totally unacceptable in my view! All this should be consolidated on the one contact page at the top of the screen. This however still proves my point, and like I said, I've seen this more times than I could count, and would gbe rich if I had a dollar for every time I have. OK, so, you now arrow through the page, or do an NVDA find to locate the Contact link. Heck, you might even do NVDA+F7 to bring up your links list. And believe me, though I'm directing this more as an NVDA thing, NVDA isn't the only screen reader which can use the DOM method. JAWS, for example, is incredibly! and I do mean, incredibly! notorious for this. Now, think about this a minute with this really convoluted scanareo regarding the contact link. - How are you going to know which contact link to press enter on to open the contact form, if you're in DOM navigation? Exactly! - You won't. It would be hit and miss.
 
Now, let's take this same situation without DOM mode.
 
In this environment, for lack of better word, you would observe both via audible speech, as well as via braille output if you have a display, that the first "Contact us" link is on the far right edge of the screen. You'd know this as you'd see the other links like Home, About us, Blog, etc. on the same line but to the immediate left before it. Does this make sense what I'm saying?
 

The bottom line

 
Regardless if you choose to use DOM or not is not something anyone should decide for an individual. If you are coming from a screen reader like JAWS as I have, you definitely may find turning off DOM navigation to be extremely awquard at best. I'd even go as far as to say that it may drive you absolutely crazy at first, and make your web browsing experience seem dreadful. I would however seriously encourage people to at least give it a try for a few days without DOM navigation. Inevitably, if you're not used to it, it's going to take some getting used to, however if you're anything like me, I feel that eventually, you will really start to see the benefits of not using DOM. DOM is great in my opinion, don't get me wrong, but if you want, or need in a mission critical environment to have an exact representation of the content, then fact is fact, you're not going to get it with DOM mode, end of the story, it's just not gonna happen, period. You might as well just accept it. The other thing to also realize is, you are taking up unnecessary memory/processor power to render things differently as an offline model. Granted, OK, it may not be much, but that's not the point. It's still taking up what to some would be considered as unnecessary resources.
 

What are your thoughts?

 
Do you use DOM? If not, I'd be interested in your reasons why not.
 
Chris.

-- 
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"

-- 
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


Re: The DOM Debate

Gene
 

And I wonder how much actual training material such as tutorials explains this or does so to any extent.  Unless things have changed, and I havedn't seen much discussion in quite some time, even small changes in a web site causes mass confusion because so many people aren't taught to explore pages.  Just changing the download link to a download button caused a lot of confusion when Send Space made that change.  I hardly noticed it when it happened because I used the screen-reader search feature to find the word "download."  I found the control just as easily and quickly either way.  Actually, the button is faster and easier because now I just type b once from the top of the page to find it.  But to those who learn by rote, even minute changes may lead to an inability to do something on a site.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 12:35 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

Hi Gene,

\

I have had bad experiences with TVI people.  One of them when asked if she knew the basics of teaching JAWS said: "No, but I and my client will learn it together."  That speaks volumes.



On 12/1/2017 11:07 AM, Gene wrote:
Certainly, for those who want to use programs that are not completely accessible, and that includes most somewhat demanding and more demanding users, those are important things to learn.  But in this case, I think my analysis points to a much deeper problem, the poor Internet instruction a lot of blind people evidently get.  I wonder how much traning material explains things such as I describe.  I don't know but I'm skeptical that it is explained in a lot of material because of the kinds of problems and questions people raise about using the Internet.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 9:42 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

Hi Gene,


Long story short of your analysis: learn to use your screen reader's quick navigation keys and other features.  This allows the reorganization and the advantages of DOM to coexist.



On 12/1/2017 6:44 AM, Gene wrote:
If you know how web pages are actually organized, the contacts problem and other such possible problems can be eliminated very easily.  We, blind people,  see a lot of links moving down from the top of the page.  A sighted person sees these running down the left side of the page in a column. Then we see the main content below the links. A sighted person sees the content toward the middle of the page, moving from left to right on the page.  Then a blind user sees a lot of links in a block at the bottom of the page.  A sighted person sees these links running down the right side of the page in another column, in the same way as the links on the left side are seen.  
 
So a blind person sees a bloc of links at the top, main content below the links then another block of links at the bottom.  A sighted person sees links running down the left side, main content to the right of those links, and on the right another block of links running down the page in a column. 
 
So, if you are using a screen-reader with the ridiculous word wrap feature, turn it off if it isn't off.  then do a screen-reader search for the word contact from the top of the page.  Repeat the search to see how many contact links there are.  The one a sighted person describes as being on the right is the one the blind person will see as the second one, if there are only two and no more and there shouldn't be any more.  If there is only one, there is, of course, no problem.  When you get to the last one, if you repeat the search again, you will get an error message.  If you dismiss the error message, you will still be on the link.  You won't lose your place.
 
You don't have to give up all the advantages of reorganization and usually it is much better to leave reorganization on.
 
Gene  
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 3:08 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

Adriani,
 
You make some extremely valid points which should be carefully considered, yes. Thanks for your contribution to the thread, and fair enough statements.
---
Christopher Gilland
Co-founder of Genuine Safe Haven Ministries
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 3:58 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

Hello,

I an not using screen layout like in your second example due to following reasons:
- By navigating with down arrow link by link I can decide by myself how fast things are being red since I can decide not to hear the whole link label, but only let‘s say the first half of the word. I don‘t have to wait until the last link on the tab is being announced
- If I want to navigate link by link in screen layout, then I have to press the ctrl key and the right arrow key (applies only for link bars like you have described or for forms with many elements on one line). The problem is that pressing ctrl + right arrow NVDA reads word by word and not link by link or button by button. So I am navigating much slower through the content
- When navigating by ctrl + right arrow through a link bar with 5 links to focus the last one, I don‘t know when the bar ends unless I have listened to NVDA reading the whole bar before
- There is the NVDA addon audiotheme 3d which gives me a screen presentation by playing a short sound in my headfones exactly at the position where the object is located on the screen.

Best
Adriani


Von meinem iPhone gesendet

Am 01.12.2017 um 09:20 schrieb Christopher-Mark Gilland <clgilland07@...>:

For those who may have a bit of a hearing impairment, let me make it very clear. In my subject, I'm saying DOM, D O M, not balm, b A L M. Although some may call DOM the balm. LOL! And here therefore lies the reason for my post this morning. - I fully realize that this is somewhat a subjective topic, and that everyone will have his or her own opinions on the matter. It is therefore my hope, that you, the reader, have an open and civil mind, and observe this question from all angles before making your response statement on list. I do not want to see this grow to a heated war debate. Anyone who would like to publish this on their website, or wherever is welcome to do so as long as you give credit back to me.
 

First off, what is DOM?

 
DOM, Document Object Model, without getting too technical, is one way in which assistive technology such as screen readers obtain information from one's computer screen. When we load a website in our browser of choice, for example, some screen readers use the DOM functionality to draw a representation of the content on the screen.
 

So, what does this mean to us non-techies?

 
Put simply, though I am not particularly sure of the exact workflow which occurs behind the scene, what I can tell you is this. Often times, more than not, this approach requires the assistive technology sitting in between the user and the web browser to redraw, as some would say, the entire HTML content in completion. The reason that the word "redraw" is used is because essentially, this is exactly what is happening.
 
Once a website is loaded, a certain amount of memory is allocated aside where the website in question may be rendered. There are a few advantages to this, however there are also some huge setbacks.
 

Beauty and the Beast

 
One of the advantages which probably appears to be fairly obvious from an outsider's perspective is that this will allow assistive technology to use certain methods to gather the web content and then present the material in an easy, robust, and sensably accessible manor. As the writer of this post, let me assure all of you... I definitely see the side of this argument.
 

Here's a practical example of DOM.

 
Let's assume, for just a moment, that you have loaded a website in the browser of your preference, be it Firefox, Internet Explorer, Chrome, etc.
 
On this particular page, there are links which visually appear as horizontal tabs extending across the top of the page. These tabs include the following:
 
  • Home
  • About Us
  • Blog
  • Shop
  • Support
  • Contact Us
 
To fully understand how this works, I encourage you to read the following part of this e-mail by using your down arrow key, and reading line by line individually. Here is what you will see. Remember before I go any further with this, all of these links visually appear as one strip of horizontal tabs running across the top of the web page.
 
Link Home
Link About Us
Link Blog
Link Shop
Link Support
Link Contact Us
 

Here's another example.

 
You have a short form on a website. This form asks for your first name, your last name, and your e-mail address. Here's how DOM most likely would reinterpret this. Again, please read this line by line.
 
Please fill out the following form so we may keep in touch.
 
First name
Edit
Last name
Edit
E-mail
Edit
Submit button
Clear form button.
 

First example without DOM

 
Read this line by line, and make sure this window with my message is maximized before doing so.
 
Link home, Link About Us, Link Blog, Link Shopt, Link Support, Link Contact Us.
 

Second example without DOM

 
Please fill out the following form so we may keep in touch.
 
First name Edit
Last name Edit
E-mail Edit, Submit: button, Clear form: Button.
 

The difference

 
As you can see in the above four illustrations, the first two examples were rendered in such that each link/form control was on its own line. This is why I asked you to read line by line, as doing a say-all, you never would have most likely caught this. So, in other words, let's make this really easy in plain english.
 
Refer back to my very first example where we had the tabs which are being represented as hyperlinks. As you recall, I said that they all went horizontally from left to right across the top of the page.
 
The problem is, DOM renders each element, for lack of better word, as its own separate item. For this reason, each element is on its own dedicated line of text. This is why each link is seeming to appear on its own line by itself. The truth is, these links in all actuality are not on multiple lines. They are actually expanding across the entire marginal width of the screen. Are you starting to see where this could be a potential problem?
 
The second example is slightly less annoying, however the point still stands in existance.
 
We have a form. If you've ever seen how a form generally looks on a print sheet of paper, you'll note that most form field labels such as first name, last name, etc. go down the left side of the sheet of paper. Then, horizontally aligned beside these field labels is the data value.
 
For example, I might have a form printed out which I sign for a Hippa release at my doctor's office. The first field may say, "Name". Out to the immediate right of this will be either a line, or a box. It just depends on how the form is designed, but the over all point is, there will be a second column to the immediate right of where it said, "First name". This is where I would write, "Christopher (Middle name) Gilland. Obviously, some of you may know my middle name, but for privacy sake, I'm not including it here.
 
Given how the above physical print paper illustration is formatted, as most forms online or not would be, does it really make sense to have the form field, then the data directly below? No. It doesn't.
 
Look at my above second example without DOM. Notice that the edit box for all three fields is now actually rendering exactly as it would be visually on the screen. The boxes are to the immediate right of the fields, on the same line. Doesn't that just naturally feel better in your mind, and make more sense? It definitely should to most people.
 
Finally, we have both the submit, and the clear vbuttons.
 
Does it make sense to you that they'd both be virtically stacked one on top of the other? It certainly doesn't to me! In fact, to me, I'd even go so far as to say it seems absolutely gross! Maybe I am more a visual  learner, but even if I wasn't, this doesn't logically compute. However, this is exactly how DOM is rendering it... One button, and one element per line.
 

Helping the sighted to guide you

 
So why is this such a vbig deal? Call me a perfectionist, but let's assume for just a moment that you're on the phone with a customer service representative. They tell you to click the contact us tab located in the upper right corner of the page. This would be a very poor website design, and to any web debvs on here, please for the love of god, take this in consideration! I can't tell you though how many times I've seen this. A web designer will put a contact link at the top of the page which has a form to e-mail them. Further down the page, they have another contact link within the actual main body's content. The difference however is, in this second link, though named identically the same thing, "Contact Us", this second link doesn't direct the visiter to a contact form, but instead gives a phone number, fax number, and possibly a postal address. Totally unacceptable in my view! All this should be consolidated on the one contact page at the top of the screen. This however still proves my point, and like I said, I've seen this more times than I could count, and would gbe rich if I had a dollar for every time I have. OK, so, you now arrow through the page, or do an NVDA find to locate the Contact link. Heck, you might even do NVDA+F7 to bring up your links list. And believe me, though I'm directing this more as an NVDA thing, NVDA isn't the only screen reader which can use the DOM method. JAWS, for example, is incredibly! and I do mean, incredibly! notorious for this. Now, think about this a minute with this really convoluted scanareo regarding the contact link. - How are you going to know which contact link to press enter on to open the contact form, if you're in DOM navigation? Exactly! - You won't. It would be hit and miss.
 
Now, let's take this same situation without DOM mode.
 
In this environment, for lack of better word, you would observe both via audible speech, as well as via braille output if you have a display, that the first "Contact us" link is on the far right edge of the screen. You'd know this as you'd see the other links like Home, About us, Blog, etc. on the same line but to the immediate left before it. Does this make sense what I'm saying?
 

The bottom line

 
Regardless if you choose to use DOM or not is not something anyone should decide for an individual. If you are coming from a screen reader like JAWS as I have, you definitely may find turning off DOM navigation to be extremely awquard at best. I'd even go as far as to say that it may drive you absolutely crazy at first, and make your web browsing experience seem dreadful. I would however seriously encourage people to at least give it a try for a few days without DOM navigation. Inevitably, if you're not used to it, it's going to take some getting used to, however if you're anything like me, I feel that eventually, you will really start to see the benefits of not using DOM. DOM is great in my opinion, don't get me wrong, but if you want, or need in a mission critical environment to have an exact representation of the content, then fact is fact, you're not going to get it with DOM mode, end of the story, it's just not gonna happen, period. You might as well just accept it. The other thing to also realize is, you are taking up unnecessary memory/processor power to render things differently as an offline model. Granted, OK, it may not be much, but that's not the point. It's still taking up what to some would be considered as unnecessary resources.
 

What are your thoughts?

 
Do you use DOM? If not, I'd be interested in your reasons why not.
 
Chris.

-- 
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"

-- 
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


Re: doing math with NVDA and Microsoft word 2016

Gene New Zealand <hurrikennyandopo@...>
 

Hi    


Check under the document formatting section in nvda and look for alignment and check it. It will then tell you if it is left aligned etc



With some things it is better to set up a profile  if you want it in one application and not in others.


Gene nz

On 12/2/2017 8:49 AM, Adriani Botez wrote:
Go to document formating in nvda prefferences. There you can activate reporting of alignments by sound or speech.

Best
Adriani


Von meinem iPhone gesendet

Am 01.12.2017 um 20:40 schrieb Jessica D <jldail13@...>:

Hi,

Do you put everything all the way to the left?

 

Will nvda read alignment?

 

If so, what’s the command for that?

 

Thanks,

Jessica

 

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Rayn Darren
Sent: Friday, December 1, 2017 2:35 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] doing math with NVDA and Microsoft word 2016

 

Align everything to the left. Keeping in mind that the + - / or * also take a space. So for example, vertically, 5+5=10 would be

 

5

+5

10

 

You can try using underline for the bottom number so it looks like you have an equals line. I hope this makes sense and my apologies, I missed your OP.

 

H T H,

Rayn

 

-----Original Message-----

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Jessica D

Sent: Friday, December 1, 2017 11:31 AM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] doing math with NVDA and Microsoft word 2016

 

Hi,

 

No,

 

I have to present some of the problems vertically.

 

 

 

Is there a good way to do this?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986>  for Windows 10

 

 

 

From: Adriani Botez <mailto:adriani.botez@...>

Sent: Friday, December 1, 2017 2:29 PM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] doing math with NVDA and Microsoft word 2016

 

 

 

Do you mean in fraction for example?

 

 

 

The best way is to check it with your braille wave. The numbers should pop up in the same braille cell.

 

 

 

Otherwise it is not simple at all.

 

 

 

Best

 

Adriani.

 

 

 

 

 

Von meinem iPhone gesendet

 

 

Am 01.12.2017 um 20:18 schrieb Jessica D <jldail13@...>:

 

        Hi,

 

        I’m trying to do some math.

 

        I’m using NVDA 2017.3, and word 2016.

 

 

 

        What’s the best way to ensure that your numbers are properly lined up?

 

 

 

        Thanks in advance,

 

        Jessica

 

 

 

 

 

        Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986>  for Windows 10

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


--
Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related material at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net Regardless of where you are in New Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you can use a copy of the NVDA screen reader on one of their computers. To find out which locations (or location) is near to you please visit http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries (Aotearoa People's Network Kaharoa). To find an NVDA certified expert near you, please visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified individuals from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA expert exam.


Re: doing math with NVDA and Microsoft word 2016

Rayn Darren
 

Hi Adriani,

 

Thanks so much! That’s a wonderful little feature that will definitely come in handy next semester!

 

Rayn

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Adriani Botez
Sent: Friday, December 1, 2017 11:49 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] doing math with NVDA and Microsoft word 2016

 

Go to document formating in nvda prefferences. There you can activate reporting of alignments by sound or speech.

 

Best

Adriani

 

Von meinem iPhone gesendet


Am 01.12.2017 um 20:40 schrieb Jessica D <jldail13@...>:

Hi,

Do you put everything all the way to the left?

 

Will nvda read alignment?

 

If so, what’s the command for that?

 

Thanks,

Jessica

 

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Rayn Darren
Sent: Friday, December 1, 2017 2:35 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] doing math with NVDA and Microsoft word 2016

 

Align everything to the left. Keeping in mind that the + - / or * also take a space. So for example, vertically, 5+5=10 would be

 

5

+5

10

 

You can try using underline for the bottom number so it looks like you have an equals line. I hope this makes sense and my apologies, I missed your OP.

 

H T H,

Rayn

 

-----Original Message-----

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Jessica D

Sent: Friday, December 1, 2017 11:31 AM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] doing math with NVDA and Microsoft word 2016

 

Hi,

 

No,

 

I have to present some of the problems vertically.

 

 

 

Is there a good way to do this?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986>  for Windows 10

 

 

 

From: Adriani Botez <mailto:adriani.botez@...>

Sent: Friday, December 1, 2017 2:29 PM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] doing math with NVDA and Microsoft word 2016

 

 

 

Do you mean in fraction for example?

 

 

 

The best way is to check it with your braille wave. The numbers should pop up in the same braille cell.

 

 

 

Otherwise it is not simple at all.

 

 

 

Best

 

Adriani.

 

 

 

 

 

Von meinem iPhone gesendet

 

 

Am 01.12.2017 um 20:18 schrieb Jessica D <jldail13@...>:

 

        Hi,

 

        I’m trying to do some math.

 

        I’m using NVDA 2017.3, and word 2016.

 

 

 

        What’s the best way to ensure that your numbers are properly lined up?

 

 

 

        Thanks in advance,

 

        Jessica

 

 

 

 

 

        Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986>  for Windows 10

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


Virus-free. www.avast.com


Re: doing math with NVDA and Microsoft word 2016

Adriani Botez
 

Go to document formating in nvda prefferences. There you can activate reporting of alignments by sound or speech.

Best
Adriani


Von meinem iPhone gesendet

Am 01.12.2017 um 20:40 schrieb Jessica D <jldail13@...>:

Hi,

Do you put everything all the way to the left?

 

Will nvda read alignment?

 

If so, what’s the command for that?

 

Thanks,

Jessica

 

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Rayn Darren
Sent: Friday, December 1, 2017 2:35 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] doing math with NVDA and Microsoft word 2016

 

Align everything to the left. Keeping in mind that the + - / or * also take a space. So for example, vertically, 5+5=10 would be

 

5

+5

10

 

You can try using underline for the bottom number so it looks like you have an equals line. I hope this makes sense and my apologies, I missed your OP.

 

H T H,

Rayn

 

-----Original Message-----

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Jessica D

Sent: Friday, December 1, 2017 11:31 AM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] doing math with NVDA and Microsoft word 2016

 

Hi,

 

No,

 

I have to present some of the problems vertically.

 

 

 

Is there a good way to do this?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986>  for Windows 10

 

 

 

From: Adriani Botez <mailto:adriani.botez@...>

Sent: Friday, December 1, 2017 2:29 PM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] doing math with NVDA and Microsoft word 2016

 

 

 

Do you mean in fraction for example?

 

 

 

The best way is to check it with your braille wave. The numbers should pop up in the same braille cell.

 

 

 

Otherwise it is not simple at all.

 

 

 

Best

 

Adriani.

 

 

 

 

 

Von meinem iPhone gesendet

 

 

Am 01.12.2017 um 20:18 schrieb Jessica D <jldail13@...>:

 

        Hi,

 

        I’m trying to do some math.

 

        I’m using NVDA 2017.3, and word 2016.

 

 

 

        What’s the best way to ensure that your numbers are properly lined up?

 

 

 

        Thanks in advance,

 

        Jessica

 

 

 

 

 

        Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986>  for Windows 10

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


Re: doing math with NVDA and Microsoft word 2016

Adriani Botez
 

There is a feature but is not very reliable.


Von meinem iPhone gesendet

Am 01.12.2017 um 20:44 schrieb Rayn Darren <rayndarren@gmail.com>:

Hi Jessica,

Yes, put everything to the left, but keep in mind that for things to visually look lined up, you'll need to put the required number of spaces or tabs in. if you put one of the problems you have to write out in your response, I'll show you specifically what I mean.

By default, Word aligns text to the left, I don't actually know if there is a command for NVDA to announce alignment as I've never used that feature.

Rayn

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Jessica D
Sent: Friday, December 1, 2017 11:40 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] doing math with NVDA and Microsoft word 2016

Hi,

Do you put everything all the way to the left?



Will nvda read alignment?



If so, what’s the command for that?



Thanks,

Jessica





Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows 10



From: Rayn Darren <mailto:rayndarren@gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, December 1, 2017 2:35 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] doing math with NVDA and Microsoft word 2016



Align everything to the left. Keeping in mind that the + - / or * also take a space. So for example, vertically, 5+5=10 would be



5

+5

10



You can try using underline for the bottom number so it looks like you have an equals line. I hope this makes sense and my apologies, I missed your OP.



H T H,

Rayn



-----Original Message-----

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Jessica D

Sent: Friday, December 1, 2017 11:31 AM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] doing math with NVDA and Microsoft word 2016



Hi,



No,



I have to present some of the problems vertically.







Is there a good way to do this?















Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows 10







From: Adriani Botez <mailto:adriani.botez@gmail.com>

Sent: Friday, December 1, 2017 2:29 PM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] doing math with NVDA and Microsoft word 2016







Do you mean in fraction for example?







The best way is to check it with your braille wave. The numbers should pop up in the same braille cell.







Otherwise it is not simple at all.







Best



Adriani.











Von meinem iPhone gesendet





Am 01.12.2017 um 20:18 schrieb Jessica D <jldail13@gmail.com>:



Hi,



I’m trying to do some math.



I’m using NVDA 2017.3, and word 2016.







What’s the best way to ensure that your numbers are properly lined up?







Thanks in advance,



Jessica











Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows 10





























Re: doing math with NVDA and Microsoft word 2016

Rayn Darren
 

Hi Jessica,

Yes, put everything to the left, but keep in mind that for things to visually look lined up, you'll need to put the required number of spaces or tabs in. if you put one of the problems you have to write out in your response, I'll show you specifically what I mean.

By default, Word aligns text to the left, I don't actually know if there is a command for NVDA to announce alignment as I've never used that feature.

Rayn

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Jessica D
Sent: Friday, December 1, 2017 11:40 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] doing math with NVDA and Microsoft word 2016

Hi,

Do you put everything all the way to the left?



Will nvda read alignment?



If so, what’s the command for that?



Thanks,

Jessica





Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows 10



From: Rayn Darren <mailto:rayndarren@gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, December 1, 2017 2:35 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] doing math with NVDA and Microsoft word 2016



Align everything to the left. Keeping in mind that the + - / or * also take a space. So for example, vertically, 5+5=10 would be



5

+5

10



You can try using underline for the bottom number so it looks like you have an equals line. I hope this makes sense and my apologies, I missed your OP.



H T H,

Rayn



-----Original Message-----

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Jessica D

Sent: Friday, December 1, 2017 11:31 AM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] doing math with NVDA and Microsoft word 2016



Hi,



No,



I have to present some of the problems vertically.







Is there a good way to do this?















Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows 10







From: Adriani Botez <mailto:adriani.botez@gmail.com>

Sent: Friday, December 1, 2017 2:29 PM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] doing math with NVDA and Microsoft word 2016







Do you mean in fraction for example?







The best way is to check it with your braille wave. The numbers should pop up in the same braille cell.







Otherwise it is not simple at all.







Best



Adriani.











Von meinem iPhone gesendet





Am 01.12.2017 um 20:18 schrieb Jessica D <jldail13@gmail.com>:



Hi,



I’m trying to do some math.



I’m using NVDA 2017.3, and word 2016.







What’s the best way to ensure that your numbers are properly lined up?







Thanks in advance,



Jessica











Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows 10


Re: doing math with NVDA and Microsoft word 2016

Adriani Botez
 

A fraction is usually displayed vertically unless you use LateX. As I said, the braille display is the best way. Put your finger on a cell and with the other hand press up and down arrow. You will know that numbers are perfectly lined up if they pop up in the same cell.


If you don‘t have a braille display, then you have to check with the right and left arrow on every line if numbers are properly under each other. But the problem is significant if there are blank lines in the expression like in linear equation systems because the cursor jumps at the beginning of the line and thus you loose your position.
.

Best
Adriani

Von meinem iPhone gesendet

Am 01.12.2017 um 20:31 schrieb Jessica D <jldail13@...>:

Hi,

No,

I have to present some of the problems vertically.

 

Is there a good way to do this?

 

 

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Adriani Botez
Sent: Friday, December 1, 2017 2:29 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] doing math with NVDA and Microsoft word 2016

 

Do you mean in fraction for example?

 

The best way is to check it with your braille wave. The numbers should pop up in the same braille cell.

 

Otherwise it is not simple at all.

 

Best

Adriani.

 

 

Von meinem iPhone gesendet


Am 01.12.2017 um 20:18 schrieb Jessica D <jldail13@...>:

Hi,

I’m trying to do some math.

I’m using NVDA 2017.3, and word 2016.

 

What’s the best way to ensure that your numbers are properly lined up?

 

Thanks in advance,

Jessica

 

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

 


Re: doing math with NVDA and Microsoft word 2016

Jessica D <jldail13@...>
 

Hi,

Do you put everything all the way to the left?

 

Will nvda read alignment?

 

If so, what’s the command for that?

 

Thanks,

Jessica

 

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Rayn Darren
Sent: Friday, December 1, 2017 2:35 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] doing math with NVDA and Microsoft word 2016

 

Align everything to the left. Keeping in mind that the + - / or * also take a space. So for example, vertically, 5+5=10 would be

 

5

+5

10

 

You can try using underline for the bottom number so it looks like you have an equals line. I hope this makes sense and my apologies, I missed your OP.

 

H T H,

Rayn

 

-----Original Message-----

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Jessica D

Sent: Friday, December 1, 2017 11:31 AM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] doing math with NVDA and Microsoft word 2016

 

Hi,

 

No,

 

I have to present some of the problems vertically.

 

 

 

Is there a good way to do this?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986>  for Windows 10

 

 

 

From: Adriani Botez <mailto:adriani.botez@...>

Sent: Friday, December 1, 2017 2:29 PM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] doing math with NVDA and Microsoft word 2016

 

 

 

Do you mean in fraction for example?

 

 

 

The best way is to check it with your braille wave. The numbers should pop up in the same braille cell.

 

 

 

Otherwise it is not simple at all.

 

 

 

Best

 

Adriani.

 

 

 

 

 

Von meinem iPhone gesendet

 

 

Am 01.12.2017 um 20:18 schrieb Jessica D <jldail13@...>:

 

        Hi,

 

        I’m trying to do some math.

 

        I’m using NVDA 2017.3, and word 2016.

 

 

 

        What’s the best way to ensure that your numbers are properly lined up?

 

 

 

        Thanks in advance,

 

        Jessica

 

 

 

 

 

        Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986>  for Windows 10

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


Re: changing the amount of graphics that are spoken

Sky Mundell
 

Absolutely right! And a graphics labeller too!

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Peter Beasley
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 11:20 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] changing the amount of graphics that are spoken

I think it would be good if NVDA were to have a graphics dictionary like winndoweyes has.
-----Original Message-----
From: Tony Ballou
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 7:14 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] changing the amount of graphics that are spoken

Hi Kevin,


Thanks, for bringing this up. That's something that I have wondered about for a while now myself but kept forgetting to ask. I haven't seen anything either in the Users guide or NVDA itself for controlling the amount of spoken graphic content. I was asked by a client about NVDA having a graphic dictionary and I told them that I didn't think one existed for Nvda. I'm Curious to know if there is a way to have NVDA not say graphic when it comes across certain content.


Tony

Tony


On 11/30/2017 4:56 PM, Kevin Huber wrote:
Hi:

Is there a way to change how much graphics are spoken, similar to the
punctuation levels?

Kevin Huber