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Re: NVDA 2017.4rc3 released #nvdasr

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

Some combo boxes have always needed the control key held but of course you have no idea which it will be till you test it.
If this no longer works on Chrome it needs to be reported.
Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Nikos Demetriou via Groups.Io" <nikosdemetriou=googlemail.com@groups.io>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 7:02 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA 2017.4rc3 released #NVDAsr


Hi.
I personally find problems with combo boxes on chrome.
The best way to focus on the combo box with chrome is to go to the button
or link next to it and press shift+tab to focus it. Or if you go to the
previous element you just press tab to get focus to it.
But for some combo boxes which activate the item as soon as you arrow to it
it is difficult to use.
An example is the forum on www.audiogames.net website.
The combobox to choose forum category is difficult with chrome. With
firefox as far as I know it works well.
Nikos

On 1 December 2017 at 08:56, zahra <nasrinkhaksar3@gmail.com> wrote:

hi bhavya.
i have problems with some combo boxes using firefox.
i also have problem with one website that has submenu and cant open it.
how should i open items which are submenu using firefox?
God bless you!

On 12/1/17, Howard Traxler <howard@traxlerenterprises.com> wrote:
Thanks Antony, now I'll know. I assume that the real thing will say
final
release or something like that.

Howard
----- Original Message -----
From: "Antony Stone" <antony.stone@nvda.open.source.it>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2017 12:59 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA 2017.4rc3 released #NVDAsr


If you mean "what does rc3 stand for?" the answer is "release candidate
number
3" - in other words, it's a version which is a candidate for the final
release
version, provided no problems are found with it. There were obviously
two
previous versions (rc1 and rc2) which did have problems, so they got
fixed
and
another candidate released.

Antony

On Thursday 30 November 2017 at 19:48:00, Howard Traxler wrote:

And what is rc3? never saw this before.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io"
<bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2017 8:56 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA 2017.4rc3 released #NVDAsr

And there was one time when the release itself needed an update to
version xxxx.x.x as well.

Brian

----- Original Message -----
From: "Rui Fontes" <rui.fontes@tiflotecnia.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2017 12:07 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA 2017.4rc3 released #NVDAsr

It is not the first time...

If I am not mistaken, once it have gone untill RC4...

Rui

Às 01:53 de 30/11/2017, Shaun Everiss escreveu:
Also I think this is the first time we have ever gone to rc3 its not
often.

How close are we from release, I guess once there are no more bugs.

On 30/11/2017 1:47 p.m., Quentin Christensen wrote:
Hi everyone,

They say the best things come in threes and now NVDA 2017.4rc3 is
available for testing! Coincidence? Probably, but in any case, this
release fixes performance issues in applications such as MIRC which
draw
a lot of text to the screen. For the full details of what is new,
and
to download the new build, head to:
https://www.nvaccess.org/post/nvda-2017-4rc3-released/

Kind regards

Quentin.
#NVDAsr
--
Atheism is a non-prophet-making organisation.

Please reply to the
list;
please *don't*
CC
me.







--
we have not sent you but as a mercy to the entire creation.
holy quran, chapter 21, verse 107.
in the very authentic narration from prophet Mohammad is:
indeed, imam husayn is the beacon of guidance and the ark of salvation.
best website for studying islamic book in different languages
www.al-islam.org




Re: NVDA 2017.4rc3 released #nvdasr

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

The rc will go. I'm not sure it will auto update, you might need to click a link. it depends wwether you get the one with the complex name as I have from the snapshot page, or the one mentioned on the announcement email I believe.
Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Howard Traxler" <howard@traxlerenterprises.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 3:12 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA 2017.4rc3 released #NVDAsr


Thanks Antony, now I'll know. I assume that the real thing will say final release or something like that.

Howard
----- Original Message -----
From: "Antony Stone" <antony.stone@nvda.open.source.it>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2017 12:59 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA 2017.4rc3 released #NVDAsr


If you mean "what does rc3 stand for?" the answer is "release candidate number
3" - in other words, it's a version which is a candidate for the final release
version, provided no problems are found with it. There were obviously two
previous versions (rc1 and rc2) which did have problems, so they got fixed and
another candidate released.

Antony

On Thursday 30 November 2017 at 19:48:00, Howard Traxler wrote:

And what is rc3? never saw this before.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io"
<bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2017 8:56 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA 2017.4rc3 released #NVDAsr

And there was one time when the release itself needed an update to
version xxxx.x.x as well.

Brian

----- Original Message -----
From: "Rui Fontes" <rui.fontes@tiflotecnia.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2017 12:07 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA 2017.4rc3 released #NVDAsr

It is not the first time...

If I am not mistaken, once it have gone untill RC4...

Rui

Às 01:53 de 30/11/2017, Shaun Everiss escreveu:
Also I think this is the first time we have ever gone to rc3 its not
often.

How close are we from release, I guess once there are no more bugs.

On 30/11/2017 1:47 p.m., Quentin Christensen wrote:
Hi everyone,

They say the best things come in threes and now NVDA 2017.4rc3 is
available for testing! Coincidence? Probably, but in any case, this
release fixes performance issues in applications such as MIRC which draw
a lot of text to the screen. For the full details of what is new, and
to download the new build, head to:
https://www.nvaccess.org/post/nvda-2017-4rc3-released/

Kind regards

Quentin.
#NVDAsr
--
Atheism is a non-prophet-making organisation.

Please reply to the list;
please *don't* CC me.





Re: Which version should I install?

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

I'd go for the 2017.3 at present. I've been using this with Windows 7 for ages. More to the point really it depends to some extent on what software you use a lot of course. If Window Eyes works still on some software, do not uninstall it merely just let it stay but not active till you need it.
Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Grant Metcalf" <the.gems@att.net>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 1:52 AM
Subject: [nvda] Which version should I install?


Greetings to all,
I am moving over to
NVDA from WindowEyes and could use advice on which version to install.
I am using a 32 bit PC running Windows 7. I have no plans to advance to a later version of Windows. I have a HIMS Braille Edge display connected to my Windows 7 PC as well as the HIMS Polaris notetaker which also could serve as a possible display.
What other information might be helpful in choosing the best version of NVDA?

Thanks for your help!

Grant Metcalf (also known as) Grandpa DOS
Email: the.gems@att.net
Phone: (650) 589-6890
California USA


Re: Will NVDA work if I Enable virtualization-based protection of code integrity

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

Is this what I might call paranoia node? :-)
I've never heard of it, is it just in Windows 10?
Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Pranav Lal" <pranav.lal@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 1:12 AM
Subject: [nvda] Will NVDA work if I Enable virtualization-based protection of code integrity


Hi all,

Will NVDA work if I Enable virtualization-based protection of code integrity
by following the steps at the following link?
https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/device-security/enable-virtualizati
on-based-protection-of-code-integrity
Pranav



Re: NVDA 2017.4rc3 released #nvdasr

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

I think it was probably Chrome or maybe the latest dodgy versions of Firefox. I certainly could not get the effect on Amazon with Firefox 52 ESR, so if anyone else out there is using Chrome which I uninstalled a month back when it kept updating, then do let the devs know if you are using it with the latest RC. Its really important. It could be just certain combinations of versions that give the problem.
Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Bhavya shah" <bhavya.shah125@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 12:25 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA 2017.4rc3 released #NVDAsr


Hi Brian,
Did someone already report issues with combo boxes on the web now? I
am particularly busy at the moment, so I cannot perform any amount of
comprehensive testing to determine the extent of this bug and to
verify whether or not it is a regression, but what I have been very
noticeably observing with NVDA 2017.4 RCs is that certain combo boxes
just cannot be opened. What I mean by this is that when I press Enter
on such a combo box, NVDA announces that it has expanded, but when I
arrow around, I continue traversing the document in browse mode and
the combo box is reported to have collapsed simultaneously. Alt+down
arrow or object navigation also fails in helping me reach the items of
such a combo box.
Unfortunately, I cannot recall which browser I was using while facing
this issue on more than one website.
Thanks.

On 12/1/17, Quentin Christensen <quentin@nvaccess.org> wrote:
NVDA has several groups of pre-release versions, all publicly available
here: https://www.nvaccess.org/files/nvda/snapshots/

"Next" builds are "alpha" quality - new code gets added to these, which may
or may not work and may or may not ever make it to a stable version.

"Master" are "Beta" quality - once something has been in Next for a couple
of weeks and hasn't caused any issues, and it is felt it should be
considered for the next stable release of NVDA, then it goes into Master.

"Release Candidate" or "RC" builds and the final versions before the next
stable release. Essentially, once we release an RC build, if we don't find
any major issues with it, then the stable version will be released a week
or so later, which will be identical to that RC build, except for dropping
the "rc" part from the version number. If we do find an issue, then we'll
fix it one way or another and release a new RC build to ensure that
everything is working.

That snapshots page is always available and updated daily as new builds are
compiled (new Next builds might come out one or even several times a day,
Master usually every few days, and RC builds only just before a new stable
release is due - every three months). So essentially they are all public
betas, it's just that we publicise the RC builds more, to get more people
to try them to hopefully pick up any big issues before the final version.

Regards

Quentin.

On Fri, Dec 1, 2017 at 7:47 AM, Kevin Huber <kevin.huber1@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi:

So what is the difference between a release candidate and a public betqa?
Kevin Huber

On 11/30/17, Howard Traxler <howard@traxlerenterprises.com> wrote:
And what is rc3? never saw this before.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io"
<bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2017 8:56 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA 2017.4rc3 released #NVDAsr


And there was one time when the release itself needed an update to
version

xxxx.x.x as well.

Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Rui Fontes" <rui.fontes@tiflotecnia.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2017 12:07 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA 2017.4rc3 released #NVDAsr


It is not the first time...

If I am not mistaken, once it have gone untill RC4...


Rui



Às 01:53 de 30/11/2017, Shaun Everiss escreveu:
Also I think this is the first time we have ever gone to rc3 its not
often.

How close are we from release, I guess once there are no more bugs.




On 30/11/2017 1:47 p.m., Quentin Christensen wrote:
Hi everyone,

They say the best things come in threes and now NVDA 2017.4rc3 is
available
for testing! Coincidence? Probably, but in any case, this release
fixes
performance issues in applications such as MIRC which draw a lot of
text to
the screen. For the full details of what is new, and to download
the
new
build, head to: https://www.nvaccess.org/post/
nvda-2017-4rc3-released/

Kind regards

Quentin.
#NVDAsr



.








--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

Official NVDA Training modules and expert certification now available:
http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

www.nvaccess.org
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
Twitter: @NVAccess

--
Best Regards
Bhavya Shah

Blogger at Hiking Across Horizons: https://bhavyashah125.wordpress.com/

Contacting Me
E-mail Address: bhavya.shah125@gmail.com
Follow me on Twitter @BhavyaShah125 or www.twitter.com/BhavyaShah125
Mobile Number: +91 7506221750


Re: NVDA 2017.4rc3 released #nvdasr

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

The release candidate has everything set as in the final release the Beta may have stuff like error sounds enable and other diagnostics active in it.

Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Kevin Huber" <kevin.huber1@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2017 8:47 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA 2017.4rc3 released #NVDAsr


Hi:

So what is the difference between a release candidate and a public betqa?
Kevin Huber

On 11/30/17, Howard Traxler <howard@traxlerenterprises.com> wrote:
And what is rc3? never saw this before.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io"
<bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2017 8:56 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA 2017.4rc3 released #NVDAsr


And there was one time when the release itself needed an update to version

xxxx.x.x as well.

Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rui Fontes" <rui.fontes@tiflotecnia.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2017 12:07 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA 2017.4rc3 released #NVDAsr


It is not the first time...

If I am not mistaken, once it have gone untill RC4...


Rui



Às 01:53 de 30/11/2017, Shaun Everiss escreveu:
Also I think this is the first time we have ever gone to rc3 its not
often.

How close are we from release, I guess once there are no more bugs.




On 30/11/2017 1:47 p.m., Quentin Christensen wrote:
Hi everyone,

They say the best things come in threes and now NVDA 2017.4rc3 is
available
for testing! Coincidence? Probably, but in any case, this release
fixes
performance issues in applications such as MIRC which draw a lot of
text to
the screen. For the full details of what is new, and to download the
new
build, head to: https://www.nvaccess.org/post/nvda-2017-4rc3-released/

Kind regards

Quentin.
#NVDAsr



.






Re: OT: selecting a new laptop is more difficult than before

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

Yes I intend only to try laptops where I can hear the screenreader running as a portable app in store.
A friend of mine, sighted has a dell and asked me to sort somthing out for him. I had to plug in an external sound box to get it not to chop off the end of every bit of speech. It also lagged terrible on the internal card. its almost as if its back to just cludging any old junk in for the sound on a laptop.
Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Nikos Demetriou via Groups.Io" <nikosdemetriou=googlemail.com@groups.io>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2017 9:21 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] OT: selecting a new laptop is more difficult than before


Hi.
We discussed this before but since we are talking about laptops I wanted to
express my consirns again.

I don't know what happens with the soundcards on laptops these days, or if
it is just driver issues but for a lot of models nvda doesnt work well with
them.
And I am talking about espeak which is light weight. I don't want to
imagine what is going to happen with hi-q tts.

On several laptops, I heard nvda not being able to incorborate.
For example the beginning or ending of sentences might be cut, or when
doing things quickly such as typing, you hear some clicks between the
letters as you type.
The problem could be fixed, if we disable audio enhunsments. The problem is
that some manufacturers disable this option so we get stuck.
Another possible fix is to disable the manufacturer audio driver and
install the generic audio driver from microsoft, but this way we are
loozing some of the quality of the sound the laptop can provide such as the
bass or some loudness of the audio.

I am very disapointed with the laptops these days because a laptop might
have the best specs, but we don't really know if it has got a nice
soundcard with good audio drivers unless if we buy it and play with it but
it might be too late to change it if we find a problem.
Good luck finding a new laptop.
I hope you find a good one.
Lenovo laptops seam to have the most sound issues with nvda but i have seen
hp and toshiba laptops to act a bit strange as well sometimes.

I don't know about del. One of my friends recently got one and she is happy
so far.
Nikos

On 30 November 2017 at 20:33, Rui Fontes <rui.fontes@tiflotecnia.com> wrote:

Hello!


1 - Don't choose anything else than SSD devices. They are much more fast
than any other!


2 - For processor, it depends a lot when you want to replace it and how
much you want to spend...


If you want to spend only a few hundresd dollars, maximum 400 USD, you and
replace it in 2a 3 years, you are well with a processor like Intel(R)
Core(TM) m3-7Y30 CPU, like my hybrid laptop have along with 4Gb of RAM.
# of Cores
2
# of Threads
4
Processor Base Frequency
1.00 GHz
Max Turbo Frequency
2.60 GHz
Cache
4 MB SmartCache

3 - If you don't want to change laptop so soon, you must choose a better
processor, like I3 or I5, at least 8Gb of RAM and nothing else than a SSD
device!

Regards,

Rui



Às 17:22 de 30/11/2017, Tyler Wood escreveu:

This summarizes exactly how I feel today.

I shouldn’t need a crazy fast machine. However, when I’m on a machine with
a mechanical hard drive or slower processor, I can tell the difference the
second I start using it. It still functions, but my general assumptions get
in the way. I get impatient. Come on, move already!

This is why I went overboard in my new desktop, which should arrive in
December. Dell xps 8930 with a core i7 processor. I may not need it, but
with the advancements in computer technology and how screen readers are,
instead of becoming lighter on processor usage, are seemingly more
dependant on them, I figure I should get as much power as I can while I
can. My thoughts are a core i3 processor, 8 gb of ram and a decent solid
state drive should get you where you want to go. The problem is when you
want more than a 128 gb drive. You have to pay for the i5 or i7 processor,
thus making the machine even more expensive. Also, in 5 years, that i3 may
be ancient history. It seems things are taking off at breakneck speed
rather than slowing down as far as advancing goes. Soon all applications
are going to be multithreaded if they’re not already and you want as many
threads as you can squeeze out of it in the future. Dual core with
hyperthreading just isn’t going to cut it in even 4 years – and if it does,
it’s going to be on the edge of it. Maybe this is just my paranoia talking,
but you never know.





*From: *Deborah Armstrong <debee@jfcl.com>
*Sent: *November 30, 2017 10:26 AM
*To: *nvda@nvda.groups.io
*Subject: *[nvda] OT: selecting a new laptop is more difficult than before



** This was also cross-posted to Cavi-discuss ***



As a screen reader user, I'm finding selecting a new laptop is more
difficult than ever before. I'm very curious to see what others think, so
please post your thoughts.



It used to be that I didn't feel I needed a super fast computer, because I
wasn't editing video. And nowadays if you look at reviews of laptops,
you'll see that people who edit photos, use CAD systems, create art or
engage in heavy gaming need fast machines. But for those who just surf the
web, read email and do some light word processing, reviewers maintain that
a slower and cheaper laptop will work just fine. In fact, reviews of
chromebooks are often mixed in with reviews of inexpensive Windows laptops
for just that reason.



In 2012 my Acer netbook (An AO-756) was the fastest ultraportable I could
buy for under $500. Its processor, a 1.4GHZ Intel Celeron 877 was a dual
core from the Sandy Bridge family -- the slowest one in that family, but it
wasn't a much slower Atom. It had a reasonable fast 500GB hard drive. I
added 8GB of RAM making it even more useful at running multiple tasks
efficiently. I could use Word, Excel and Outlook without latency and of
course I did a lot of web surfing. Compared to the computers at work, it
was a bit slower, but like the reviewers said, it didn't matter, since I
didn't do computation-heavy tasks at home.



What's changed today might best be covered in this post:

https://www.marcozehe.de/2017/09/29/rethinking-web-
accessibility-on-windows/



which discusses how screen readers access the web. Today, if I have to
work with a dynamic website, my little ACER is unbearably slow, despite my
having carefully maintained it so it doesn't run unnecessary background
tasks, and so that Windows is regularly fully refreshed.



I am convinced the problem is not so much that the PC is slow, but that
the screen reader has become a palace built on a shack's foundation. It
needs everything it can squeeze out of the processor to handle the new,
dynamic web. Seems both NVDA and JAWS fail miserably on slower processors.



But if a task does not depend on a screen reader, the machine is still
fairly fast. For example, when I OCR something in Kurzweil 1000, the
laptop is just as fast as my much more powerful desktop computers at work.
And running something like Handbrake is indeed slower on my laptop but not
so slow it cannot be used. A video that takes an hour to convert on my
desktop at work might take fifteen extra minutes on the laptop. Handbrake
is often used as an informal benchmarking tool.



But where instant responsiveness counts, my Netbook falls short. I expect
to hear something when I press a key. Often, today, I don't -- seems like I
am always waiting for the screen reader to pull itself together and find
the focus, or cope with a dynamic partial page refresh, or the next column
in the spreadsheet, or read my next email in Thunderbird.



The Acer actually got fractionally faster when I upgraded to Windows 10,
but even so, I mostly wait after pressing a key to hear something read back
to me.



My work computers which run Core i7 Pentiums respond immediately, even
though they are saddled with far more background tasks required by my job.



So if I were to trust reviews, this claim that for the kinds of things I
do at home on the laptop I don't need a very powerful machine, I'd buy
something with an Atom processor, a 128GB SSD and 2GB of RAM. Clearly that
would result in a machine that's even slower than my existing laptop. Plus,
it would have a quarter of the storage!



I guess the dilemma I'm struggling with here is how to avoid spending a
fortune and still get an ultraportable that has no latency when I use a
screen reader.



What do others think?



--Debee







Re: OT: selecting a new laptop is more difficult than before

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

Yes I agree, its a shame but almost any access tech immediately, means at least one more core and an ssd I foound on desktop tests. Also don't modern laptops seem to get hot these days?
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Rui Fontes" <rui.fontes@tiflotecnia.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2017 6:33 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] OT: selecting a new laptop is more difficult than before


Hello!


1 - Don't choose anything else than SSD devices. They are much more fast
than any other!


2 - For processor, it depends a lot when you want to replace it and how
much you want to spend...


If you want to spend only a few hundresd dollars, maximum 400 USD, you
and replace it in 2a 3 years, you are well with a processor like
Intel(R) Core(TM) m3-7Y30 CPU, like my hybrid laptop have along with 4Gb
of RAM.

# of Cores
2
# of Threads
4
Processor Base Frequency
1.00 GHz
Max Turbo Frequency
2.60 GHz
Cache
4 MB SmartCache

3 - If you don't want to change laptop so soon, you must choose a better
processor, like I3 or I5, at least 8Gb of RAM and nothing else than a
SSD device!

Regards,

Rui


Às 17:22 de 30/11/2017, Tyler Wood escreveu:

This summarizes exactly how I feel today.

I shouldn’t need a crazy fast machine. However, when I’m on a machine
with a mechanical hard drive or slower processor, I can tell the
difference the second I start using it. It still functions, but my
general assumptions get in the way. I get impatient. Come on, move
already!

This is why I went overboard in my new desktop, which should arrive in
December. Dell xps 8930 with a core i7 processor. I may not need it,
but with the advancements in computer technology and how screen
readers are, instead of becoming lighter on processor usage, are
seemingly more dependant on them, I figure I should get as much power
as I can while I can. My thoughts are a core i3 processor, 8 gb of ram
and a decent solid state drive should get you where you want to go.
The problem is when you want more than a 128 gb drive. You have to pay
for the i5 or i7 processor, thus making the machine even more
expensive. Also, in 5 years, that i3 may be ancient history. It seems
things are taking off at breakneck speed rather than slowing down as
far as advancing goes. Soon all applications are going to be
multithreaded if they’re not already and you want as many threads as
you can squeeze out of it in the future. Dual core with hyperthreading
just isn’t going to cut it in even 4 years – and if it does, it’s
going to be on the edge of it. Maybe this is just my paranoia talking,
but you never know.

*From: *Deborah Armstrong <mailto:debee@jfcl.com>
*Sent: *November 30, 2017 10:26 AM
*To: *nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*Subject: *[nvda] OT: selecting a new laptop is more difficult than before

** This was also cross-posted to Cavi-discuss ***

As a screen reader user, I'm finding selecting a new laptop is more
difficult than ever before. I'm very curious to see what others think,
so please post your thoughts.

It used to be that I didn't feel I needed a super fast computer,
because I wasn't editing video. And nowadays if you look at reviews of
laptops, you'll see that people who edit photos, use CAD systems,
create art or engage in heavy gaming need fast machines. But for those
who just surf the web, read email and do some light word processing,
reviewers maintain that a slower and cheaper laptop will work just
fine. In fact, reviews of chromebooks are often mixed in with reviews
of inexpensive Windows laptops for just that reason.

In 2012 my Acer netbook (An AO-756) was the fastest ultraportable I
could buy for under $500. Its processor, a 1.4GHZ Intel Celeron 877
was a dual core from the Sandy Bridge family -- the slowest one in
that family, but it wasn't a much slower Atom. It had a reasonable
fast 500GB hard drive. I added 8GB of RAM making it even more useful
at running multiple tasks efficiently. I could use Word, Excel and
Outlook without latency and of course I did a lot of web surfing.
Compared to the computers at work, it was a bit slower, but like the
reviewers said, it didn't matter, since I didn't do computation-heavy
tasks at home.

What's changed today might best be covered in this post:

https://www.marcozehe.de/2017/09/29/rethinking-web-accessibility-on-windows/

which discusses how screen readers access the web. Today, if I have to
work with a dynamic website, my little ACER is unbearably slow,
despite my having carefully maintained it so it doesn't run
unnecessary background tasks, and so that Windows is regularly fully
refreshed.

I am convinced the problem is not so much that the PC is slow, but
that the screen reader has become a palace built on a shack's
foundation. It needs everything it can squeeze out of the processor to
handle the new, dynamic web. Seems both NVDA and JAWS fail miserably
on slower processors.

But if a task does not depend on a screen reader, the machine is still
fairly fast. For example, when I OCR something in Kurzweil 1000, the
laptop is just as fast as my much more powerful desktop computers at
work. And running something like Handbrake is indeed slower on my
laptop but not so slow it cannot be used. A video that takes an hour
to convert on my desktop at work might take fifteen extra minutes on
the laptop. Handbrake is often used as an informal benchmarking tool.

But where instant responsiveness counts, my Netbook falls short. I
expect to hear something when I press a key. Often, today, I don't --
seems like I am always waiting for the screen reader to pull itself
together and find the focus, or cope with a dynamic partial page
refresh, or the next column in the spreadsheet, or read my next email
in Thunderbird.

The Acer actually got fractionally faster when I upgraded to Windows
10, but even so, I mostly wait after pressing a key to hear something
read back to me.

My work computers which run Core i7 Pentiums respond immediately, even
though they are saddled with far more background tasks required by my job.

So if I were to trust reviews, this claim that for the kinds of things
I do at home on the laptop I don't need a very powerful machine, I'd
buy something with an Atom processor, a 128GB SSD and 2GB of RAM.
Clearly that would result in a machine that's even slower than my
existing laptop. Plus, it would have a quarter of the storage!

I guess the dilemma I'm struggling with here is how to avoid spending
a fortune and still get an ultraportable that has no latency when I
use a screen reader.

What do others think?

--Debee


Re: OT: selecting a new laptop is more difficult than before

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

Well I do notice huge differences between SSD and normal hard drives. this desktop has an SSD for the os and programs but I also have a traditional hard drive for backups and other data, and its amazing how you start to notice the delays if you are moving stuff to and from the physicl drive.
At our Talking Newspaper studio that machiine, a little older than mine hads a normal drive and only 4 gig of memory and glitches and hiccups are always going on, even though the processor is the same. Sad really that one has to say it, but its becoming minimum standards to have i5, 8 gig and ssd for anything you want to do any serious work on.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Governor staten" <govsta@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2017 6:16 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] OT: selecting a new laptop is more difficult than before


One thing is for sure. You need at least 6 or 8 gb of ram. Netbooks no
longer cut it, at all. You could possibly find some refurbished
computers on Amazon.


I have an Asus netbook with 4 gb of ram (not expansible), 500 gb hard
drive, 2.16 ghz dual-core Intel Celeron processor. Graphics and audio
are built-in. I need to get a new computer, as well. I'm interested in
this discussion for that reason.



------------------------------------------------------------------------


On 11/30/2017 11:26 AM, Deborah Armstrong wrote:
** This was also cross-posted to Cavi-discuss ***
As a screen reader user, I'm finding selecting a new laptop is more
difficult than ever before. I'm very curious to see what others think,
so please post your thoughts.
It used to be that I didn't feel I needed a super fast computer,
because I wasn't editing video. And nowadays if you look at reviews of
laptops, you'll see that people who edit photos, use CAD systems,
create art or engage in heavy gaming need fast machines. But for those
who just surf the web, read email and do some light word processing,
reviewers maintain that a slower and cheaper laptop will work just
fine. In fact, reviews of chromebooks are often mixed in with reviews
of inexpensive Windows laptops for just that reason.
In 2012 my Acer netbook (An AO-756) was the fastest ultraportable I
could buy for under $500. Its processor, a 1.4GHZ Intel Celeron 877
was a dual core from the Sandy Bridge family -- the slowest one in
that family, but it wasn't a much slower Atom. It had a reasonable
fast 500GB hard drive. I added 8GB of RAM making it even more useful
at running multiple tasks efficiently. I could use Word, Excel and
Outlook without latency and of course I did a lot of web surfing.
Compared to the computers at work, it was a bit slower, but like the
reviewers said, it didn't matter, since I didn't do computation-heavy
tasks at home.
What's changed today might best be covered in this post:
https://www.marcozehe.de/2017/09/29/rethinking-web-accessibility-on-windows/
which discusses how screen readers access the web. Today, if I have to
work with a dynamic website, my little ACER is unbearably slow,
despite my having carefully maintained it so it doesn't run
unnecessary background tasks, and so that Windows is regularly fully
refreshed.
I am convinced the problem is not so much that the PC is slow, but
that the screen reader has become a palace built on a shack's
foundation. It needs everything it can squeeze out of the processor to
handle the new, dynamic web. Seems both NVDA and JAWS fail miserably
on slower processors.
But if a task does not depend on a screen reader, the machine is still
fairly fast. For example, when I OCR something in Kurzweil 1000, the
laptop is just as fast as my much more powerful desktop computers at
work. And running something like Handbrake is indeed slower on my
laptop but not so slow it cannot be used. A video that takes an hour
to convert on my desktop at work might take fifteen extra minutes on
the laptop. Handbrake is often used as an informal benchmarking tool.
But where instant responsiveness counts, my Netbook falls short. I
expect to hear something when I press a key. Often, today, I don't --
seems like I am always waiting for the screen reader to pull itself
together and find the focus, or cope with a dynamic partial page
refresh, or the next column in the spreadsheet, or read my next email
in Thunderbird.
The Acer actually got fractionally faster when I upgraded to Windows
10, but even so, I mostly wait after pressing a key to hear something
read back to me.
My work computers which run Core i7 Pentiums respond immediately, even
though they are saddled with far more background tasks required by my job.
So if I were to trust reviews, this claim that for the kinds of things
I do at home on the laptop I don't need a very powerful machine, I'd
buy something with an Atom processor, a 128GB SSD and 2GB of RAM.
Clearly that would result in a machine that's even slower than my
existing laptop. Plus, it would have a quarter of the storage!
I guess the dilemma I'm struggling with here is how to avoid spending
a fortune and still get an ultraportable that has no latency when I
use a screen reader.
What do others think?
--Debee


Re: OT: selecting a new laptop is more difficult than before

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

Is there a n equivelance chart somewhere for what Intel and AMD systems are roughly the same as each other?
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Don H" <lmddh50@adams.net>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2017 6:23 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] OT: selecting a new laptop is more difficult than before


I think it is important to get at least a Intel I3 processor or its AMD equal. If you can't afford a higher Intel processor you will find fast AMD processors cheaper and just as good as Intel.

On 11/30/2017 12:16 PM, Governor staten wrote:
One thing is for sure. You need at least 6 or 8 gb of ram. Netbooks no longer cut it, at all. You could possibly find some refurbished computers on Amazon.


I have an Asus netbook with 4 gb of ram (not expansible), 500 gb hard drive, 2.16 ghz dual-core Intel Celeron processor. Graphics and audio are built-in. I need to get a new computer, as well. I'm interested in this discussion for that reason.



------------------------------------------------------------------------


On 11/30/2017 11:26 AM, Deborah Armstrong wrote:
** This was also cross-posted to Cavi-discuss ***
As a screen reader user, I'm finding selecting a new laptop is more difficult than ever before. I'm very curious to see what others think, so please post your thoughts.
It used to be that I didn't feel I needed a super fast computer, because I wasn't editing video. And nowadays if you look at reviews of laptops, you'll see that people who edit photos, use CAD systems, create art or engage in heavy gaming need fast machines. But for those who just surf the web, read email and do some light word processing, reviewers maintain that a slower and cheaper laptop will work just fine. In fact, reviews of chromebooks are often mixed in with reviews of inexpensive Windows laptops for just that reason.
In 2012 my Acer netbook (An AO-756) was the fastest ultraportable I could buy for under $500. Its processor, a 1.4GHZ Intel Celeron 877 was a dual core from the Sandy Bridge family -- the slowest one in that family, but it wasn't a much slower Atom. It had a reasonable fast 500GB hard drive. I added 8GB of RAM making it even more useful at running multiple tasks efficiently. I could use Word, Excel and Outlook without latency and of course I did a lot of web surfing. Compared to the computers at work, it was a bit slower, but like the reviewers said, it didn't matter, since I didn't do computation-heavy tasks at home.
What's changed today might best be covered in this post:
https://www.marcozehe.de/2017/09/29/rethinking-web-accessibility-on-windows/
which discusses how screen readers access the web. Today, if I have to work with a dynamic website, my little ACER is unbearably slow, despite my having carefully maintained it so it doesn't run unnecessary background tasks, and so that Windows is regularly fully refreshed.
I am convinced the problem is not so much that the PC is slow, but that the screen reader has become a palace built on a shack's foundation. It needs everything it can squeeze out of the processor to handle the new, dynamic web. Seems both NVDA and JAWS fail miserably on slower processors.
But if a task does not depend on a screen reader, the machine is still fairly fast. For example, when I OCR something in Kurzweil 1000, the laptop is just as fast as my much more powerful desktop computers at work. And running something like Handbrake is indeed slower on my laptop but not so slow it cannot be used. A video that takes an hour to convert on my desktop at work might take fifteen extra minutes on the laptop. Handbrake is often used as an informal benchmarking tool.
But where instant responsiveness counts, my Netbook falls short. I expect to hear something when I press a key. Often, today, I don't --
seems like I am always waiting for the screen reader to pull itself together and find the focus, or cope with a dynamic partial page refresh, or the next column in the spreadsheet, or read my next email in Thunderbird.
The Acer actually got fractionally faster when I upgraded to Windows 10, but even so, I mostly wait after pressing a key to hear something read back to me.
My work computers which run Core i7 Pentiums respond immediately, even though they are saddled with far more background tasks required by my job.
So if I were to trust reviews, this claim that for the kinds of things I do at home on the laptop I don't need a very powerful machine, I'd buy something with an Atom processor, a 128GB SSD and 2GB of RAM. Clearly that would result in a machine that's even slower than my existing laptop. Plus, it would have a quarter of the storage!
I guess the dilemma I'm struggling with here is how to avoid spending a fortune and still get an ultraportable that has no latency when I use a screen reader.
What do others think?
--Debee


Re: After unistall Office 2016 with Microsoft Removal Tool nvda don't work fine

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

I still think you should have done the re register dlls first, and had a restore point set in case it did not work. It has been my experience that, normally the re register solves it, but every machines history is different.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Alessandro Albano via Groups.Io" <sharkboy_torino=yahoo.it@groups.io>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2017 5:44 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] After unistall Office 2016 with Microsoft Removal Tool nvda don't work fine


Hi all,
this mornig, I have reinstalled Office 2016 and all now work fine.
This bug is very dangerous for all!
Thanks all for the replay!


Re: The DOM Debate

Christopher-Mark Gilland <clgilland07@...>
 


Adriani,
 
You make some extremely valid points which should be carefully considered, yes. Thanks for your contribution to the thread, and fair enough statements.
---
Christopher Gilland
Co-founder of Genuine Safe Haven Ministries
 

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 3:58 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

Hello,

I an not using screen layout like in your second example due to following reasons:
- By navigating with down arrow link by link I can decide by myself how fast things are being red since I can decide not to hear the whole link label, but only let‘s say the first half of the word. I don‘t have to wait until the last link on the tab is being announced
- If I want to navigate link by link in screen layout, then I have to press the ctrl key and the right arrow key (applies only for link bars like you have described or for forms with many elements on one line). The problem is that pressing ctrl + right arrow NVDA reads word by word and not link by link or button by button. So I am navigating much slower through the content
- When navigating by ctrl + right arrow through a link bar with 5 links to focus the last one, I don‘t know when the bar ends unless I have listened to NVDA reading the whole bar before
- There is the NVDA addon audiotheme 3d which gives me a screen presentation by playing a short sound in my headfones exactly at the position where the object is located on the screen.

Best
Adriani


Von meinem iPhone gesendet

Am 01.12.2017 um 09:20 schrieb Christopher-Mark Gilland <clgilland07@...>:

For those who may have a bit of a hearing impairment, let me make it very clear. In my subject, I'm saying DOM, D O M, not balm, b A L M. Although some may call DOM the balm. LOL! And here therefore lies the reason for my post this morning. - I fully realize that this is somewhat a subjective topic, and that everyone will have his or her own opinions on the matter. It is therefore my hope, that you, the reader, have an open and civil mind, and observe this question from all angles before making your response statement on list. I do not want to see this grow to a heated war debate. Anyone who would like to publish this on their website, or wherever is welcome to do so as long as you give credit back to me.
 

First off, what is DOM?

 
DOM, Document Object Model, without getting too technical, is one way in which assistive technology such as screen readers obtain information from one's computer screen. When we load a website in our browser of choice, for example, some screen readers use the DOM functionality to draw a representation of the content on the screen.
 

So, what does this mean to us non-techies?

 
Put simply, though I am not particularly sure of the exact workflow which occurs behind the scene, what I can tell you is this. Often times, more than not, this approach requires the assistive technology sitting in between the user and the web browser to redraw, as some would say, the entire HTML content in completion. The reason that the word "redraw" is used is because essentially, this is exactly what is happening.
 
Once a website is loaded, a certain amount of memory is allocated aside where the website in question may be rendered. There are a few advantages to this, however there are also some huge setbacks.
 

Beauty and the Beast

 
One of the advantages which probably appears to be fairly obvious from an outsider's perspective is that this will allow assistive technology to use certain methods to gather the web content and then present the material in an easy, robust, and sensably accessible manor. As the writer of this post, let me assure all of you... I definitely see the side of this argument.
 

Here's a practical example of DOM.

 
Let's assume, for just a moment, that you have loaded a website in the browser of your preference, be it Firefox, Internet Explorer, Chrome, etc.
 
On this particular page, there are links which visually appear as horizontal tabs extending across the top of the page. These tabs include the following:
 
  • Home
  • About Us
  • Blog
  • Shop
  • Support
  • Contact Us
 
To fully understand how this works, I encourage you to read the following part of this e-mail by using your down arrow key, and reading line by line individually. Here is what you will see. Remember before I go any further with this, all of these links visually appear as one strip of horizontal tabs running across the top of the web page.
 
Link Home
Link About Us
Link Blog
Link Shop
Link Support
Link Contact Us
 

Here's another example.

 
You have a short form on a website. This form asks for your first name, your last name, and your e-mail address. Here's how DOM most likely would reinterpret this. Again, please read this line by line.
 
Please fill out the following form so we may keep in touch.
 
First name
Edit
Last name
Edit
E-mail
Edit
Submit button
Clear form button.
 

First example without DOM

 
Read this line by line, and make sure this window with my message is maximized before doing so.
 
Link home, Link About Us, Link Blog, Link Shopt, Link Support, Link Contact Us.
 

Second example without DOM

 
Please fill out the following form so we may keep in touch.
 
First name Edit
Last name Edit
E-mail Edit, Submit: button, Clear form: Button.
 

The difference

 
As you can see in the above four illustrations, the first two examples were rendered in such that each link/form control was on its own line. This is why I asked you to read line by line, as doing a say-all, you never would have most likely caught this. So, in other words, let's make this really easy in plain english.
 
Refer back to my very first example where we had the tabs which are being represented as hyperlinks. As you recall, I said that they all went horizontally from left to right across the top of the page.
 
The problem is, DOM renders each element, for lack of better word, as its own separate item. For this reason, each element is on its own dedicated line of text. This is why each link is seeming to appear on its own line by itself. The truth is, these links in all actuality are not on multiple lines. They are actually expanding across the entire marginal width of the screen. Are you starting to see where this could be a potential problem?
 
The second example is slightly less annoying, however the point still stands in existance.
 
We have a form. If you've ever seen how a form generally looks on a print sheet of paper, you'll note that most form field labels such as first name, last name, etc. go down the left side of the sheet of paper. Then, horizontally aligned beside these field labels is the data value.
 
For example, I might have a form printed out which I sign for a Hippa release at my doctor's office. The first field may say, "Name". Out to the immediate right of this will be either a line, or a box. It just depends on how the form is designed, but the over all point is, there will be a second column to the immediate right of where it said, "First name". This is where I would write, "Christopher (Middle name) Gilland. Obviously, some of you may know my middle name, but for privacy sake, I'm not including it here.
 
Given how the above physical print paper illustration is formatted, as most forms online or not would be, does it really make sense to have the form field, then the data directly below? No. It doesn't.
 
Look at my above second example without DOM. Notice that the edit box for all three fields is now actually rendering exactly as it would be visually on the screen. The boxes are to the immediate right of the fields, on the same line. Doesn't that just naturally feel better in your mind, and make more sense? It definitely should to most people.
 
Finally, we have both the submit, and the clear vbuttons.
 
Does it make sense to you that they'd both be virtically stacked one on top of the other? It certainly doesn't to me! In fact, to me, I'd even go so far as to say it seems absolutely gross! Maybe I am more a visual  learner, but even if I wasn't, this doesn't logically compute. However, this is exactly how DOM is rendering it... One button, and one element per line.
 

Helping the sighted to guide you

 
So why is this such a vbig deal? Call me a perfectionist, but let's assume for just a moment that you're on the phone with a customer service representative. They tell you to click the contact us tab located in the upper right corner of the page. This would be a very poor website design, and to any web debvs on here, please for the love of god, take this in consideration! I can't tell you though how many times I've seen this. A web designer will put a contact link at the top of the page which has a form to e-mail them. Further down the page, they have another contact link within the actual main body's content. The difference however is, in this second link, though named identically the same thing, "Contact Us", this second link doesn't direct the visiter to a contact form, but instead gives a phone number, fax number, and possibly a postal address. Totally unacceptable in my view! All this should be consolidated on the one contact page at the top of the screen. This however still proves my point, and like I said, I've seen this more times than I could count, and would gbe rich if I had a dollar for every time I have. OK, so, you now arrow through the page, or do an NVDA find to locate the Contact link. Heck, you might even do NVDA+F7 to bring up your links list. And believe me, though I'm directing this more as an NVDA thing, NVDA isn't the only screen reader which can use the DOM method. JAWS, for example, is incredibly! and I do mean, incredibly! notorious for this. Now, think about this a minute with this really convoluted scanareo regarding the contact link. - How are you going to know which contact link to press enter on to open the contact form, if you're in DOM navigation? Exactly! - You won't. It would be hit and miss.
 
Now, let's take this same situation without DOM mode.
 
In this environment, for lack of better word, you would observe both via audible speech, as well as via braille output if you have a display, that the first "Contact us" link is on the far right edge of the screen. You'd know this as you'd see the other links like Home, About us, Blog, etc. on the same line but to the immediate left before it. Does this make sense what I'm saying?
 

The bottom line

 
Regardless if you choose to use DOM or not is not something anyone should decide for an individual. If you are coming from a screen reader like JAWS as I have, you definitely may find turning off DOM navigation to be extremely awquard at best. I'd even go as far as to say that it may drive you absolutely crazy at first, and make your web browsing experience seem dreadful. I would however seriously encourage people to at least give it a try for a few days without DOM navigation. Inevitably, if you're not used to it, it's going to take some getting used to, however if you're anything like me, I feel that eventually, you will really start to see the benefits of not using DOM. DOM is great in my opinion, don't get me wrong, but if you want, or need in a mission critical environment to have an exact representation of the content, then fact is fact, you're not going to get it with DOM mode, end of the story, it's just not gonna happen, period. You might as well just accept it. The other thing to also realize is, you are taking up unnecessary memory/processor power to render things differently as an offline model. Granted, OK, it may not be much, but that's not the point. It's still taking up what to some would be considered as unnecessary resources.
 

What are your thoughts?

 
Do you use DOM? If not, I'd be interested in your reasons why not.
 
Chris.


Re: The DOM Debate

Adriani Botez
 

Hello,

I an not using screen layout like in your second example due to following reasons:
- By navigating with down arrow link by link I can decide by myself how fast things are being red since I can decide not to hear the whole link label, but only let‘s say the first half of the word. I don‘t have to wait until the last link on the tab is being announced
- If I want to navigate link by link in screen layout, then I have to press the ctrl key and the right arrow key (applies only for link bars like you have described or for forms with many elements on one line). The problem is that pressing ctrl + right arrow NVDA reads word by word and not link by link or button by button. So I am navigating much slower through the content
- When navigating by ctrl + right arrow through a link bar with 5 links to focus the last one, I don‘t know when the bar ends unless I have listened to NVDA reading the whole bar before
- There is the NVDA addon audiotheme 3d which gives me a screen presentation by playing a short sound in my headfones exactly at the position where the object is located on the screen.

Best
Adriani


Von meinem iPhone gesendet

Am 01.12.2017 um 09:20 schrieb Christopher-Mark Gilland <clgilland07@...>:

For those who may have a bit of a hearing impairment, let me make it very clear. In my subject, I'm saying DOM, D O M, not balm, b A L M. Although some may call DOM the balm. LOL! And here therefore lies the reason for my post this morning. - I fully realize that this is somewhat a subjective topic, and that everyone will have his or her own opinions on the matter. It is therefore my hope, that you, the reader, have an open and civil mind, and observe this question from all angles before making your response statement on list. I do not want to see this grow to a heated war debate. Anyone who would like to publish this on their website, or wherever is welcome to do so as long as you give credit back to me.
 

First off, what is DOM?

 
DOM, Document Object Model, without getting too technical, is one way in which assistive technology such as screen readers obtain information from one's computer screen. When we load a website in our browser of choice, for example, some screen readers use the DOM functionality to draw a representation of the content on the screen.
 

So, what does this mean to us non-techies?

 
Put simply, though I am not particularly sure of the exact workflow which occurs behind the scene, what I can tell you is this. Often times, more than not, this approach requires the assistive technology sitting in between the user and the web browser to redraw, as some would say, the entire HTML content in completion. The reason that the word "redraw" is used is because essentially, this is exactly what is happening.
 
Once a website is loaded, a certain amount of memory is allocated aside where the website in question may be rendered. There are a few advantages to this, however there are also some huge setbacks.
 

Beauty and the Beast

 
One of the advantages which probably appears to be fairly obvious from an outsider's perspective is that this will allow assistive technology to use certain methods to gather the web content and then present the material in an easy, robust, and sensably accessible manor. As the writer of this post, let me assure all of you... I definitely see the side of this argument.
 

Here's a practical example of DOM.

 
Let's assume, for just a moment, that you have loaded a website in the browser of your preference, be it Firefox, Internet Explorer, Chrome, etc.
 
On this particular page, there are links which visually appear as horizontal tabs extending across the top of the page. These tabs include the following:
 
  • Home
  • About Us
  • Blog
  • Shop
  • Support
  • Contact Us
 
To fully understand how this works, I encourage you to read the following part of this e-mail by using your down arrow key, and reading line by line individually. Here is what you will see. Remember before I go any further with this, all of these links visually appear as one strip of horizontal tabs running across the top of the web page.
 
Link Home
Link About Us
Link Blog
Link Shop
Link Support
Link Contact Us
 

Here's another example.

 
You have a short form on a website. This form asks for your first name, your last name, and your e-mail address. Here's how DOM most likely would reinterpret this. Again, please read this line by line.
 
Please fill out the following form so we may keep in touch.
 
First name
Edit
Last name
Edit
E-mail
Edit
Submit button
Clear form button.
 

First example without DOM

 
Read this line by line, and make sure this window with my message is maximized before doing so.
 
Link home, Link About Us, Link Blog, Link Shopt, Link Support, Link Contact Us.
 

Second example without DOM

 
Please fill out the following form so we may keep in touch.
 
First name Edit
Last name Edit
E-mail Edit, Submit: button, Clear form: Button.
 

The difference

 
As you can see in the above four illustrations, the first two examples were rendered in such that each link/form control was on its own line. This is why I asked you to read line by line, as doing a say-all, you never would have most likely caught this. So, in other words, let's make this really easy in plain english.
 
Refer back to my very first example where we had the tabs which are being represented as hyperlinks. As you recall, I said that they all went horizontally from left to right across the top of the page.
 
The problem is, DOM renders each element, for lack of better word, as its own separate item. For this reason, each element is on its own dedicated line of text. This is why each link is seeming to appear on its own line by itself. The truth is, these links in all actuality are not on multiple lines. They are actually expanding across the entire marginal width of the screen. Are you starting to see where this could be a potential problem?
 
The second example is slightly less annoying, however the point still stands in existance.
 
We have a form. If you've ever seen how a form generally looks on a print sheet of paper, you'll note that most form field labels such as first name, last name, etc. go down the left side of the sheet of paper. Then, horizontally aligned beside these field labels is the data value.
 
For example, I might have a form printed out which I sign for a Hippa release at my doctor's office. The first field may say, "Name". Out to the immediate right of this will be either a line, or a box. It just depends on how the form is designed, but the over all point is, there will be a second column to the immediate right of where it said, "First name". This is where I would write, "Christopher (Middle name) Gilland. Obviously, some of you may know my middle name, but for privacy sake, I'm not including it here.
 
Given how the above physical print paper illustration is formatted, as most forms online or not would be, does it really make sense to have the form field, then the data directly below? No. It doesn't.
 
Look at my above second example without DOM. Notice that the edit box for all three fields is now actually rendering exactly as it would be visually on the screen. The boxes are to the immediate right of the fields, on the same line. Doesn't that just naturally feel better in your mind, and make more sense? It definitely should to most people.
 
Finally, we have both the submit, and the clear vbuttons.
 
Does it make sense to you that they'd both be virtically stacked one on top of the other? It certainly doesn't to me! In fact, to me, I'd even go so far as to say it seems absolutely gross! Maybe I am more a visual  learner, but even if I wasn't, this doesn't logically compute. However, this is exactly how DOM is rendering it... One button, and one element per line.
 

Helping the sighted to guide you

 
So why is this such a vbig deal? Call me a perfectionist, but let's assume for just a moment that you're on the phone with a customer service representative. They tell you to click the contact us tab located in the upper right corner of the page. This would be a very poor website design, and to any web debvs on here, please for the love of god, take this in consideration! I can't tell you though how many times I've seen this. A web designer will put a contact link at the top of the page which has a form to e-mail them. Further down the page, they have another contact link within the actual main body's content. The difference however is, in this second link, though named identically the same thing, "Contact Us", this second link doesn't direct the visiter to a contact form, but instead gives a phone number, fax number, and possibly a postal address. Totally unacceptable in my view! All this should be consolidated on the one contact page at the top of the screen. This however still proves my point, and like I said, I've seen this more times than I could count, and would gbe rich if I had a dollar for every time I have. OK, so, you now arrow through the page, or do an NVDA find to locate the Contact link. Heck, you might even do NVDA+F7 to bring up your links list. And believe me, though I'm directing this more as an NVDA thing, NVDA isn't the only screen reader which can use the DOM method. JAWS, for example, is incredibly! and I do mean, incredibly! notorious for this. Now, think about this a minute with this really convoluted scanareo regarding the contact link. - How are you going to know which contact link to press enter on to open the contact form, if you're in DOM navigation? Exactly! - You won't. It would be hit and miss.
 
Now, let's take this same situation without DOM mode.
 
In this environment, for lack of better word, you would observe both via audible speech, as well as via braille output if you have a display, that the first "Contact us" link is on the far right edge of the screen. You'd know this as you'd see the other links like Home, About us, Blog, etc. on the same line but to the immediate left before it. Does this make sense what I'm saying?
 

The bottom line

 
Regardless if you choose to use DOM or not is not something anyone should decide for an individual. If you are coming from a screen reader like JAWS as I have, you definitely may find turning off DOM navigation to be extremely awquard at best. I'd even go as far as to say that it may drive you absolutely crazy at first, and make your web browsing experience seem dreadful. I would however seriously encourage people to at least give it a try for a few days without DOM navigation. Inevitably, if you're not used to it, it's going to take some getting used to, however if you're anything like me, I feel that eventually, you will really start to see the benefits of not using DOM. DOM is great in my opinion, don't get me wrong, but if you want, or need in a mission critical environment to have an exact representation of the content, then fact is fact, you're not going to get it with DOM mode, end of the story, it's just not gonna happen, period. You might as well just accept it. The other thing to also realize is, you are taking up unnecessary memory/processor power to render things differently as an offline model. Granted, OK, it may not be much, but that's not the point. It's still taking up what to some would be considered as unnecessary resources.
 

What are your thoughts?

 
Do you use DOM? If not, I'd be interested in your reasons why not.
 
Chris.


Re: Now that I've got Firefox ESR, there's a problem with links not activating

 

hi gene.
thanks extremely for explaning about advantages of portable firefox versions.
does the website keep the download link for all old version of firefox
like its owner mozilla?
i mean does it have all versions of firefox since the first portable version?
or it only keeps the latest versions and removed old ones?
God bless you for helping you as always.

On 11/22/17, JM Casey <crystallogic@ca.inter.net> wrote:
Hi Brian.

The links are all still there, and screen-reader working perfectly. They
will activate in a new tab or window if I use the context menu options on
the links. Pressing enter does not a thing, though. However, I know that the
screen-reader (nvda, and jaws too in fact) are aware of the links. I
hesitated to post this at all because I'm quite sure it's not really a
screen-reader issue.



-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian's
Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: November 22, 2017 6:00 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Now that I've got Firefox ESR, there's a problem with
links not activating

And are you saying this affects nvda and other screenreaders?


After all if a link works and then does not work that would suggest that the
page you are reading is not actually in focus for the reader or has
something transparent over it. I assume toggling the focus and browse mode
still work and that single letter nav ie k will still work? If you cursor
along a line do you hear the word link at any point and will it then
operate?

Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "JM Casey" <crystallogic@ca.inter.net>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2017 11:08 PM
Subject: [nvda] Now that I've got Firefox ESR, there's a problem with links
not activating


Hello everyone. Really sorry about this as it's not strictly speaking an
nVDA question, but I know Firefox has been a hot topic round these parts for
quite some time, so it doesn't seem entirely inappropriate. As I said in a
previous message, I was using FF 57 and it was working -- ok. But as other
users pointed out, it was kind of slow and weird. And as much as I'm growing
to really like nVDA, it did annoy me that I could not use it with JAWS at
all. So, I went and got Firefox ESR, as many on this list have also done,
and installed it. But now I have a weird issue, and it's one I seem to
remember coming up against with firefox before, but I can't recall for the
life of me what I had to do to correct it.

Basically, links will not activate as they normally do. I go to a site with
ctrl-l, and can maybe click on one link as I normally would, with the enter
key. Goodreads.com is an example of a site I visit frequently which now does
this. I can search for a book title and get a list of results, but then
clicking on that item appears to do absolutely nothing. The mobile facebook
site is doing the same thing, as have other sites, so I know it isn't
site-specific, but something on my end. The links *will* activate if I
select "open in new tab" from the context menu, but I don't want to have to
do this every time, obviously. My only thought is that something got changed
when I installed ESR over 57, a setting or something. This certainly wasn't
happening before yesterday. Does anyone have any ideas?

Thanks.












--
we have not sent you but as a mercy to the entire creation.
holy quran, chapter 21, verse 107.
in the very authentic narration from prophet Mohammad is:
indeed, imam husayn is the beacon of guidance and the ark of salvation.
best website for studying islamic book in different languages
www.al-islam.org


Re: OT: selecting a new laptop is more difficult than before

 

Sadly its become clear a couple things.

Laptop speakers have gotten smaller and smaller.

To the point where without some sort of effect software which can be sadly installed over the drivers and not uninstalled even without drivers, to make the sound better.

This can really mangle speech because its a bit to short for effects to work right.

Speech is not designed for effects at the best of times.

Now you play music on those cards or something and they are coool.

Try to play the things without sound you will find the speakers really bad, its what I found my aunt's hp doing.

I mostly work in a quiet environment else I'd need effects to.

On the plus side if you disable effects windows spacial audio should bring sound up to what it should sort of be without much issues as long as you are on those speakers.

The issues don't have any effect on headphones or in some cases external speakers.

Most sound cards are realtech so the latest generic drivers do work in a more stable fashion.

However fact is the sound cards control panels really suck.

Maybe in gaming laptops you could get away with it.

In the old days laptops had full speakers not little pinholes.

So you didn't need all the effects, sadly with most of the hd cards including off the shelf usb ones they all suck to some degree.

Now some are really bad with everything but if you run music or a game through them they rock speech, well it depends.

Creative cards are choppy but not to bad unless you have effects on.

Hp are not to bad with effects at default values.

Creative if you can program them just right can sound really good if you do it just right.

But not everything is that good, del's wavemix and toshiba's srs premium are the most suckfull thing I have used.

Dts effects at default are quite good for what they are though.

You do get slite fade in of speech but it actually makes speech improve a bit  double that with spacial audio and drop the volume a little even better.

On 1/12/2017 10:21 a.m., Nikos Demetriou via Groups.Io wrote:
Hi.
We discussed this before but since we are talking about laptops I wanted to
express my consirns again.

I don't know what happens with the soundcards on laptops these days, or if
it is just driver issues but for a lot of models nvda doesnt work well with
them.
And I am talking about espeak which is light weight. I don't want to
imagine what is going to happen with hi-q tts.

On several laptops, I heard nvda not being able to incorborate.
For example the beginning or ending of sentences might be cut, or when
doing things quickly such as typing, you hear some clicks between the
letters as you type.
The problem could be fixed, if we disable audio enhunsments. The problem is
that some manufacturers disable this option so we get stuck.
Another possible fix is to disable the manufacturer audio driver and
install the generic audio driver from microsoft, but this way we are
loozing some of the quality of the sound the laptop can provide such as the
bass or some loudness of the audio.

I am very disapointed with the laptops these days because a laptop might
have the best specs, but we don't really know if it has got a nice
soundcard with good audio drivers unless if we buy it and play with it but
it might be too late to change it if we find a problem.
Good luck finding a new laptop.
I hope you find a good one.
Lenovo laptops seam to have the most sound issues with nvda but i have seen
hp and toshiba laptops to act a bit strange as well sometimes.

I don't know about del. One of my friends recently got one and she is happy
so far.
Nikos

On 30 November 2017 at 20:33, Rui Fontes <rui.fontes@tiflotecnia.com> wrote:

Hello!


1 - Don't choose anything else than SSD devices. They are much more fast
than any other!


2 - For processor, it depends a lot when you want to replace it and how
much you want to spend...


If you want to spend only a few hundresd dollars, maximum 400 USD, you and
replace it in 2a 3 years, you are well with a processor like Intel(R)
Core(TM) m3-7Y30 CPU, like my hybrid laptop have along with 4Gb of RAM.
# of Cores
2
# of Threads
4
Processor Base Frequency
1.00 GHz
Max Turbo Frequency
2.60 GHz
Cache
4 MB SmartCache

3 - If you don't want to change laptop so soon, you must choose a better
processor, like I3 or I5, at least 8Gb of RAM and nothing else than a SSD
device!

Regards,

Rui



Às 17:22 de 30/11/2017, Tyler Wood escreveu:

This summarizes exactly how I feel today.

I shouldn’t need a crazy fast machine. However, when I’m on a machine with
a mechanical hard drive or slower processor, I can tell the difference the
second I start using it. It still functions, but my general assumptions get
in the way. I get impatient. Come on, move already!

This is why I went overboard in my new desktop, which should arrive in
December. Dell xps 8930 with a core i7 processor. I may not need it, but
with the advancements in computer technology and how screen readers are,
instead of becoming lighter on processor usage, are seemingly more
dependant on them, I figure I should get as much power as I can while I
can. My thoughts are a core i3 processor, 8 gb of ram and a decent solid
state drive should get you where you want to go. The problem is when you
want more than a 128 gb drive. You have to pay for the i5 or i7 processor,
thus making the machine even more expensive. Also, in 5 years, that i3 may
be ancient history. It seems things are taking off at breakneck speed
rather than slowing down as far as advancing goes. Soon all applications
are going to be multithreaded if they’re not already and you want as many
threads as you can squeeze out of it in the future. Dual core with
hyperthreading just isn’t going to cut it in even 4 years – and if it does,
it’s going to be on the edge of it. Maybe this is just my paranoia talking,
but you never know.





*From: *Deborah Armstrong <debee@jfcl.com>
*Sent: *November 30, 2017 10:26 AM
*To: *nvda@nvda.groups.io
*Subject: *[nvda] OT: selecting a new laptop is more difficult than before



** This was also cross-posted to Cavi-discuss ***



As a screen reader user, I'm finding selecting a new laptop is more
difficult than ever before. I'm very curious to see what others think, so
please post your thoughts.



It used to be that I didn't feel I needed a super fast computer, because I
wasn't editing video. And nowadays if you look at reviews of laptops,
you'll see that people who edit photos, use CAD systems, create art or
engage in heavy gaming need fast machines. But for those who just surf the
web, read email and do some light word processing, reviewers maintain that
a slower and cheaper laptop will work just fine. In fact, reviews of
chromebooks are often mixed in with reviews of inexpensive Windows laptops
for just that reason.



In 2012 my Acer netbook (An AO-756) was the fastest ultraportable I could
buy for under $500. Its processor, a 1.4GHZ Intel Celeron 877 was a dual
core from the Sandy Bridge family -- the slowest one in that family, but it
wasn't a much slower Atom. It had a reasonable fast 500GB hard drive. I
added 8GB of RAM making it even more useful at running multiple tasks
efficiently. I could use Word, Excel and Outlook without latency and of
course I did a lot of web surfing. Compared to the computers at work, it
was a bit slower, but like the reviewers said, it didn't matter, since I
didn't do computation-heavy tasks at home.



What's changed today might best be covered in this post:

https://www.marcozehe.de/2017/09/29/rethinking-web-
accessibility-on-windows/



which discusses how screen readers access the web. Today, if I have to
work with a dynamic website, my little ACER is unbearably slow, despite my
having carefully maintained it so it doesn't run unnecessary background
tasks, and so that Windows is regularly fully refreshed.



I am convinced the problem is not so much that the PC is slow, but that
the screen reader has become a palace built on a shack's foundation. It
needs everything it can squeeze out of the processor to handle the new,
dynamic web. Seems both NVDA and JAWS fail miserably on slower processors.



But if a task does not depend on a screen reader, the machine is still
fairly fast. For example, when I OCR something in Kurzweil 1000, the
laptop is just as fast as my much more powerful desktop computers at work.
And running something like Handbrake is indeed slower on my laptop but not
so slow it cannot be used. A video that takes an hour to convert on my
desktop at work might take fifteen extra minutes on the laptop. Handbrake
is often used as an informal benchmarking tool.



But where instant responsiveness counts, my Netbook falls short. I expect
to hear something when I press a key. Often, today, I don't -- seems like I
am always waiting for the screen reader to pull itself together and find
the focus, or cope with a dynamic partial page refresh, or the next column
in the spreadsheet, or read my next email in Thunderbird.



The Acer actually got fractionally faster when I upgraded to Windows 10,
but even so, I mostly wait after pressing a key to hear something read back
to me.



My work computers which run Core i7 Pentiums respond immediately, even
though they are saddled with far more background tasks required by my job.



So if I were to trust reviews, this claim that for the kinds of things I
do at home on the laptop I don't need a very powerful machine, I'd buy
something with an Atom processor, a 128GB SSD and 2GB of RAM. Clearly that
would result in a machine that's even slower than my existing laptop. Plus,
it would have a quarter of the storage!



I guess the dilemma I'm struggling with here is how to avoid spending a
fortune and still get an ultraportable that has no latency when I use a
screen reader.



What do others think?



--Debee







Re: Submenu expantion on website

 

hi Adriani,
i appreciate your help, i had this problem and did not know the solution.
God bless you for your helping me!

On 11/23/17, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
<bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io> wrote:
So really the problem is that they are not actually being identified
correctly for us, not that they do not work.
Confusing.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ron Canazzi" <aa2vm@roadrunner.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2017 5:43 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Submenu expantion on website


Hi Jonathon,


With these types of menus, here is what I do. Switch to edit mode with
insert + space bar. Then press enter. When I did this on the first
collapse link, it actually read search. Then I switched out of the edit
mode and down a few lines was a combo box that gave you a choice of what
type of search and an edit box to type in a search string.


Give this a try on those types of links that say collapsed and many of
them work like edit combo boxes.




On 11/22/2017 11:59 AM, Jonathan Milam wrote:

Hi All,

When I visit:

http://help.wfu.edu

and attempt to expand the submenus for Help, explore services, WFU
Community, and About Us, the menu doesn’t expand with enter or space,
or even using the number pad to left click it. I have tested with
Firefox, IE and Chrome. However, JAWS expands them without
difficulty. Are there any ideas for what the developer can try to
make these expand properly? When expanded, the body of the web page
changes and the content appears under the next heading.

Thanks,

Jonathan

--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"





--
we have not sent you but as a mercy to the entire creation.
holy quran, chapter 21, verse 107.
in the very authentic narration from prophet Mohammad is:
indeed, imam husayn is the beacon of guidance and the ark of salvation.
best website for studying islamic book in different languages
www.al-islam.org


Re: OT: selecting a new laptop is more difficult than before

 

That explains why firefox just doesn't work for my 2 core gen3 cpu with 4gb ram that well.

Saying that games are also getting into higher and higher spec and in some ways well I am frustrated by it I am sort of happy.

To long have we been able to get away with underpowered technology.

Streaming content data and the lot take more than they need to.

I just hope we have the options to not be multicore, its why I switched to waterfox over firefox for now.

ANd its why I don't leave resilio on all day long and limit the use of the system cores so its not a drain.

On 1/12/2017 6:22 a.m., Tyler Wood wrote:
This summarizes exactly how I feel today.
I shouldn’t need a crazy fast machine. However, when I’m on a machine with a mechanical hard drive or slower processor, I can tell the difference the second I start using it. It still functions, but my general assumptions get in the way. I get impatient. Come on, move already!
This is why I went overboard in my new desktop, which should arrive in December. Dell xps 8930 with a core i7 processor. I may not need it, but with the advancements in computer technology and how screen readers are, instead of becoming lighter on processor usage, are seemingly more dependant on them, I figure I should get as much power as I can while I can. My thoughts are a core i3 processor, 8 gb of ram and a decent solid state drive should get you where you want to go. The problem is when you want more than a 128 gb drive. You have to pay for the i5 or i7 processor, thus making the machine even more expensive. Also, in 5 years, that i3 may be ancient history. It seems things are taking off at breakneck speed rather than slowing down as far as advancing goes. Soon all applications are going to be multithreaded if they’re not already and you want as many threads as you can squeeze out of it in the future. Dual core with hyperthreading just isn’t going to cut it in even 4 years – and if it does, it’s going to be on the edge of it. Maybe this is just my paranoia talking, but you never know.


From: Deborah Armstrong
Sent: November 30, 2017 10:26 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] OT: selecting a new laptop is more difficult than before

** This was also cross-posted to Cavi-discuss ***
As a screen reader user, I'm finding selecting a new laptop is more difficult than ever before. I'm very curious to see what others think, so please post your thoughts.
It used to be that I didn't feel I needed a super fast computer, because I wasn't editing video. And nowadays if you look at reviews of laptops, you'll see that people who edit photos, use CAD systems, create art or engage in heavy gaming need fast machines. But for those who just surf the web, read email and do some light word processing, reviewers maintain that a slower and cheaper laptop will work just fine. In fact, reviews of chromebooks are often mixed in with reviews of inexpensive Windows laptops for just that reason.
In 2012 my Acer netbook (An AO-756) was the fastest ultraportable I could buy for under $500. Its processor, a 1.4GHZ Intel Celeron 877 was a dual core from the Sandy Bridge family -- the slowest one in that family, but it wasn't a much slower Atom.    It had a reasonable fast 500GB hard drive. I added 8GB of RAM making it even more useful at running multiple tasks efficiently. I could use Word, Excel and Outlook without latency and of course I did a lot of web surfing. Compared to the computers at work, it was a bit slower, but like the reviewers said, it didn't matter, since I didn't do computation-heavy tasks at home.
What's changed today might best be covered in this post:
    https://www.marcozehe.de/2017/09/29/rethinking-web-accessibility-on-windows/
which discusses how screen readers access the web. Today, if I have to work with a dynamic website, my little ACER is unbearably slow, despite my having carefully maintained it so it doesn't run unnecessary background tasks, and so that Windows is regularly fully refreshed.
I am convinced the problem is not so much that the PC is slow, but that the screen reader has become a palace built on a shack's foundation. It needs everything it can squeeze out of the processor to handle the new, dynamic web. Seems both NVDA and JAWS fail miserably on slower processors.
But if a task does not depend on a screen reader, the machine is still fairly fast.  For example, when I OCR something in Kurzweil 1000, the laptop is just as fast as my much more powerful desktop computers at work. And running something like Handbrake is indeed slower on my laptop but not so slow it cannot be used. A video that takes an hour to convert on my desktop at work might take fifteen extra minutes on the laptop. Handbrake is often used as an informal benchmarking tool.
But where instant responsiveness counts, my Netbook falls short. I expect to hear something when I press a key. Often, today, I don't -- seems like I am always waiting for the screen reader to pull itself together and find the focus, or cope with a dynamic partial page refresh, or the next column in the spreadsheet, or read my next email in Thunderbird.
The Acer actually got fractionally faster when I upgraded to Windows 10, but even so, I mostly wait after pressing a key to hear something read back to me.
My work computers which run Core i7 Pentiums respond immediately, even though they are saddled with far more background tasks required by my job.
So if I were to trust reviews, this claim that for the kinds of things I do at home on the laptop I don't need a very powerful machine, I'd buy something with an Atom processor, a 128GB SSD and 2GB of RAM. Clearly that would result in a machine that's even slower than my existing laptop. Plus, it would have a quarter of the storage!
I guess the dilemma I'm struggling with here is how to avoid spending a fortune and still get an ultraportable that has no latency when I use a screen reader.
What do others think?
--Debee



Re: installing 2017-4 RC3

 

You know it often feels like that these days.

Rappid release is good when it works.

However its not when it doesn't.

After updating my aunt's new hp, the system would not start off of my usb adapter kept saying the fans were not working.

If started connected to my wrig the thing would ding just after startup with hardware detected and then an error beep but that was it.

During troubleshooting a sightling told me the display didn't work and there was a problem with that.

I was able to install that, but on checking with support found an update, further checking showed me that there were a lot more than I was lead to believe it works now though.

On 1/12/2017 6:17 a.m., Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io wrote:
Yes others have said this, but then it suddenly appears. I've seen these discussions on the github issues.
I suspect that with all these fast and furious windows updates, things are not being checked by Microsoft very well.
What next, the Win 10 trainspotters update, perhaps? :-)
Brian

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----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris" <chrismedley@btinternet.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2017 3:10 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] installing 2017-4 RC3


Its strange or maybe not so but it opens the ease of access section of the settings app but they does not seem to be any reference to nvda in there at all as far as i can see


From: Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: 30 November 2017 14:55
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] installing 2017-4 RC3

Well I seemed to recall this was the case for an earlier reporter and was
just trying to find some common denominator. Could it be somehow related,
but who knows. Otherwise as nothing has changed could the mismatch of not
selected in the temp copy mean that it gets configured when setting it up to
use the same shortcut and copies the settings incorrectly somewhere?
Brian

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----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris" <chrismedley@btinternet.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2017 11:45 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] installing 2017-4 RC3


This happened to me when i installed rc2
And i use caps lock as the nvda key along with insert
But i don’t see the significance of this though


From: Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: 30 November 2017 10:23
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] installing 2017-4 RC3

As a matter of interest do you use caps lock as the nvda key?
Brian

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----- Original Message ----- From: "Don H" <lmddh50@adams.net>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2017 1:00 AM
Subject: [nvda] installing 2017-4 RC3


Used the check for updates under the help of the NVDA UI.  Installed RC 3
over RC2.  For some reason during the update the Windows 10 settings
screen opened and was showing the settings for Narrator.  Never seen this
happen before.  Doesn't seem to have caused any issues with the update
just strange that it happened.
















The DOM Debate

Christopher-Mark Gilland <clgilland07@...>
 


For those who may have a bit of a hearing impairment, let me make it very clear. In my subject, I'm saying DOM, D O M, not balm, b A L M. Although some may call DOM the balm. LOL! And here therefore lies the reason for my post this morning. - I fully realize that this is somewhat a subjective topic, and that everyone will have his or her own opinions on the matter. It is therefore my hope, that you, the reader, have an open and civil mind, and observe this question from all angles before making your response statement on list. I do not want to see this grow to a heated war debate. Anyone who would like to publish this on their website, or wherever is welcome to do so as long as you give credit back to me.
 

First off, what is DOM?

 
DOM, Document Object Model, without getting too technical, is one way in which assistive technology such as screen readers obtain information from one's computer screen. When we load a website in our browser of choice, for example, some screen readers use the DOM functionality to draw a representation of the content on the screen.
 

So, what does this mean to us non-techies?

 
Put simply, though I am not particularly sure of the exact workflow which occurs behind the scene, what I can tell you is this. Often times, more than not, this approach requires the assistive technology sitting in between the user and the web browser to redraw, as some would say, the entire HTML content in completion. The reason that the word "redraw" is used is because essentially, this is exactly what is happening.
 
Once a website is loaded, a certain amount of memory is allocated aside where the website in question may be rendered. There are a few advantages to this, however there are also some huge setbacks.
 

Beauty and the Beast

 
One of the advantages which probably appears to be fairly obvious from an outsider's perspective is that this will allow assistive technology to use certain methods to gather the web content and then present the material in an easy, robust, and sensably accessible manor. As the writer of this post, let me assure all of you... I definitely see the side of this argument.
 

Here's a practical example of DOM.

 
Let's assume, for just a moment, that you have loaded a website in the browser of your preference, be it Firefox, Internet Explorer, Chrome, etc.
 
On this particular page, there are links which visually appear as horizontal tabs extending across the top of the page. These tabs include the following:
 
  • Home
  • About Us
  • Blog
  • Shop
  • Support
  • Contact Us
 
To fully understand how this works, I encourage you to read the following part of this e-mail by using your down arrow key, and reading line by line individually. Here is what you will see. Remember before I go any further with this, all of these links visually appear as one strip of horizontal tabs running across the top of the web page.
 
Link Home
Link About Us
Link Blog
Link Shop
Link Support
Link Contact Us
 

Here's another example.

 
You have a short form on a website. This form asks for your first name, your last name, and your e-mail address. Here's how DOM most likely would reinterpret this. Again, please read this line by line.
 
Please fill out the following form so we may keep in touch.
 
First name
Edit
Last name
Edit
E-mail
Edit
Submit button
Clear form button.
 

First example without DOM

 
Read this line by line, and make sure this window with my message is maximized before doing so.
 
Link home, Link About Us, Link Blog, Link Shopt, Link Support, Link Contact Us.
 

Second example without DOM

 
Please fill out the following form so we may keep in touch.
 
First name Edit
Last name Edit
E-mail Edit, Submit: button, Clear form: Button.
 

The difference

 
As you can see in the above four illustrations, the first two examples were rendered in such that each link/form control was on its own line. This is why I asked you to read line by line, as doing a say-all, you never would have most likely caught this. So, in other words, let's make this really easy in plain english.
 
Refer back to my very first example where we had the tabs which are being represented as hyperlinks. As you recall, I said that they all went horizontally from left to right across the top of the page.
 
The problem is, DOM renders each element, for lack of better word, as its own separate item. For this reason, each element is on its own dedicated line of text. This is why each link is seeming to appear on its own line by itself. The truth is, these links in all actuality are not on multiple lines. They are actually expanding across the entire marginal width of the screen. Are you starting to see where this could be a potential problem?
 
The second example is slightly less annoying, however the point still stands in existance.
 
We have a form. If you've ever seen how a form generally looks on a print sheet of paper, you'll note that most form field labels such as first name, last name, etc. go down the left side of the sheet of paper. Then, horizontally aligned beside these field labels is the data value.
 
For example, I might have a form printed out which I sign for a Hippa release at my doctor's office. The first field may say, "Name". Out to the immediate right of this will be either a line, or a box. It just depends on how the form is designed, but the over all point is, there will be a second column to the immediate right of where it said, "First name". This is where I would write, "Christopher (Middle name) Gilland. Obviously, some of you may know my middle name, but for privacy sake, I'm not including it here.
 
Given how the above physical print paper illustration is formatted, as most forms online or not would be, does it really make sense to have the form field, then the data directly below? No. It doesn't.
 
Look at my above second example without DOM. Notice that the edit box for all three fields is now actually rendering exactly as it would be visually on the screen. The boxes are to the immediate right of the fields, on the same line. Doesn't that just naturally feel better in your mind, and make more sense? It definitely should to most people.
 
Finally, we have both the submit, and the clear vbuttons.
 
Does it make sense to you that they'd both be virtically stacked one on top of the other? It certainly doesn't to me! In fact, to me, I'd even go so far as to say it seems absolutely gross! Maybe I am more a visual  learner, but even if I wasn't, this doesn't logically compute. However, this is exactly how DOM is rendering it... One button, and one element per line.
 

Helping the sighted to guide you

 
So why is this such a vbig deal? Call me a perfectionist, but let's assume for just a moment that you're on the phone with a customer service representative. They tell you to click the contact us tab located in the upper right corner of the page. This would be a very poor website design, and to any web debvs on here, please for the love of god, take this in consideration! I can't tell you though how many times I've seen this. A web designer will put a contact link at the top of the page which has a form to e-mail them. Further down the page, they have another contact link within the actual main body's content. The difference however is, in this second link, though named identically the same thing, "Contact Us", this second link doesn't direct the visiter to a contact form, but instead gives a phone number, fax number, and possibly a postal address. Totally unacceptable in my view! All this should be consolidated on the one contact page at the top of the screen. This however still proves my point, and like I said, I've seen this more times than I could count, and would gbe rich if I had a dollar for every time I have. OK, so, you now arrow through the page, or do an NVDA find to locate the Contact link. Heck, you might even do NVDA+F7 to bring up your links list. And believe me, though I'm directing this more as an NVDA thing, NVDA isn't the only screen reader which can use the DOM method. JAWS, for example, is incredibly! and I do mean, incredibly! notorious for this. Now, think about this a minute with this really convoluted scanareo regarding the contact link. - How are you going to know which contact link to press enter on to open the contact form, if you're in DOM navigation? Exactly! - You won't. It would be hit and miss.
 
Now, let's take this same situation without DOM mode.
 
In this environment, for lack of better word, you would observe both via audible speech, as well as via braille output if you have a display, that the first "Contact us" link is on the far right edge of the screen. You'd know this as you'd see the other links like Home, About us, Blog, etc. on the same line but to the immediate left before it. Does this make sense what I'm saying?
 

The bottom line

 
Regardless if you choose to use DOM or not is not something anyone should decide for an individual. If you are coming from a screen reader like JAWS as I have, you definitely may find turning off DOM navigation to be extremely awquard at best. I'd even go as far as to say that it may drive you absolutely crazy at first, and make your web browsing experience seem dreadful. I would however seriously encourage people to at least give it a try for a few days without DOM navigation. Inevitably, if you're not used to it, it's going to take some getting used to, however if you're anything like me, I feel that eventually, you will really start to see the benefits of not using DOM. DOM is great in my opinion, don't get me wrong, but if you want, or need in a mission critical environment to have an exact representation of the content, then fact is fact, you're not going to get it with DOM mode, end of the story, it's just not gonna happen, period. You might as well just accept it. The other thing to also realize is, you are taking up unnecessary memory/processor power to render things differently as an offline model. Granted, OK, it may not be much, but that's not the point. It's still taking up what to some would be considered as unnecessary resources.
 

What are your thoughts?

 
Do you use DOM? If not, I'd be interested in your reasons why not.
 
Chris.


Re: OT: selecting a new laptop is more difficult than before

 

Well to be honest I am finding this hard.

Now for  600 bucks here you can get an hp with 8gb ram, an i5 processer duel core and an ssd as well as internal graphics and it will just work.

Ofcause for the user that is using this she does not use office of any sort, mostly web based apps, the only things installed on her system bar drivers, are my screen reader, 7zip, ccleaner, and cdburner xp as well as libreoffice.

But it works reasonably.


About actual laptops, toshiba used to be the go to system for me.

An ssd or a hard drive, a nice cpu, etc, etc, etc.

New firefox just doesn't cut it, chrome sort of does but it has become a bit slower.

With toshiba on its last legs, I can get what I have but not much more than that.

From my research, hp seem to be able to do 2-6gb video cards dedicated and depending on your processer get a reasonably fast clip with battery charge and the like.

For me a gamer though I need and really still like large disk storage as well as maybe an ssd and dedicated graphics.

With toshiba models are limited.

Asus is another option but I have heard support is not that good for the blind to use though I have an asus board and it works well enough.

Gegabyte could be an answer but there is no hardware vertualisation, hp mostly works and I have gotten used to the system.

Ofcause they all have their drawbacks refreshrates and the like.

For me an old timer all the new models are throwing me.

Being a gamer I want to customise what I have, basically I want everything as maxed as I can get it.

Sadly I really would like to customise my recovery software I got with it, that would be windows, and the drivers but nothing else.

You can get good deals but in new zealand well lets just say no customs unless you use lenovo and with all their spyware and dells issues with speech I just don't know anymore.

No one uses standard audio and that means that with short things with speech it will suck.

On the other hand, audio like games and music will absolutely rock.

On 1/12/2017 5:26 a.m., Deborah Armstrong wrote:
** This was also cross-posted to Cavi-discuss ***

As a screen reader user, I'm finding selecting a new laptop is more difficult than ever before. I'm very curious to see what others think, so please post your thoughts.

It used to be that I didn't feel I needed a super fast computer, because I wasn't editing video. And nowadays if you look at reviews of laptops, you'll see that people who edit photos, use CAD systems, create art or engage in heavy gaming need fast machines. But for those who just surf the web, read email and do some light word processing, reviewers maintain that a slower and cheaper laptop will work just fine. In fact, reviews of chromebooks are often mixed in with reviews of inexpensive Windows laptops for just that reason.

In 2012 my Acer netbook (An AO-756) was the fastest ultraportable I could buy for under $500. Its processor, a 1.4GHZ Intel Celeron 877 was a dual core from the Sandy Bridge family -- the slowest one in that family, but it wasn't a much slower Atom. It had a reasonable fast 500GB hard drive. I added 8GB of RAM making it even more useful at running multiple tasks efficiently. I could use Word, Excel and Outlook without latency and of course I did a lot of web surfing. Compared to the computers at work, it was a bit slower, but like the reviewers said, it didn't matter, since I didn't do computation-heavy tasks at home.

What's changed today might best be covered in this post:
https://www.marcozehe.de/2017/09/29/rethinking-web-accessibility-on-windows/

which discusses how screen readers access the web. Today, if I have to work with a dynamic website, my little ACER is unbearably slow, despite my having carefully maintained it so it doesn't run unnecessary background tasks, and so that Windows is regularly fully refreshed.

I am convinced the problem is not so much that the PC is slow, but that the screen reader has become a palace built on a shack's foundation. It needs everything it can squeeze out of the processor to handle the new, dynamic web. Seems both NVDA and JAWS fail miserably on slower processors.

But if a task does not depend on a screen reader, the machine is still fairly fast. For example, when I OCR something in Kurzweil 1000, the laptop is just as fast as my much more powerful desktop computers at work. And running something like Handbrake is indeed slower on my laptop but not so slow it cannot be used. A video that takes an hour to convert on my desktop at work might take fifteen extra minutes on the laptop. Handbrake is often used as an informal benchmarking tool.

But where instant responsiveness counts, my Netbook falls short. I expect to hear something when I press a key. Often, today, I don't -- seems like I am always waiting for the screen reader to pull itself together and find the focus, or cope with a dynamic partial page refresh, or the next column in the spreadsheet, or read my next email in Thunderbird.

The Acer actually got fractionally faster when I upgraded to Windows 10, but even so, I mostly wait after pressing a key to hear something read back to me.

My work computers which run Core i7 Pentiums respond immediately, even though they are saddled with far more background tasks required by my job.

So if I were to trust reviews, this claim that for the kinds of things I do at home on the laptop I don't need a very powerful machine, I'd buy something with an Atom processor, a 128GB SSD and 2GB of RAM. Clearly that would result in a machine that's even slower than my existing laptop. Plus, it would have a quarter of the storage!

I guess the dilemma I'm struggling with here is how to avoid spending a fortune and still get an ultraportable that has no latency when I use a screen reader.

What do others think?

--Debee