Date   

Re: Windows 10 is Very, Very Broken

 

Sorry for the late reply. Unfortunately, I do have school, and as such I am not able to check my email for mailing lists. Now that I am home and can work on this, I actually can write.
My plan is to run a Windows 10 ISO from my flash drive, and repair my system using that. I have some instructions on doing this. Unfortunately, I am unable to access safe mode, and can do nothing with my Windows partition of this machine.
So that’s where things stand as of now.

NoahOn Oct 5, 2017, at 19:18, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:


Now that we have more information, you have a much better chance of getting help.  Are you receiving mail as a digest?  You said you needed help fast so I wonder why you didn't respond for a day or more after your first message.  I would suggest not using digest delivery if you want informnation in a timely manner, if you are using digest delivery now. 
 
I don't know what caused the hang, but the problem you are discussing doesn't appear to be a hardware problem. 
 
Windows used to have a way of having it use the last good configuration.  If Windows 10 still has that option, that might be the best thing to try first.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----

Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2017 6:10 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Windows 10 is Very, Very Broken

OK, so here’s some more in-depth explanation. When does does boot. Boots all the way up until the lock screen. The lock screen appears, showing a lovely photo that Microsoft auto generate. But then I press control to bring up the password entry field, nothing happens. It’s basically locked on the lock screen. That’s my problem. I don’t believe that this is a hardware issue, as windows boot fine. I’m more inclined to believe it has something to do with windows it’s self.

> On Oct 5, 2017, at 15:04, Shaun Everiss <sm.everiss@...> wrote:
>
> Well a system hang could be many things.
>
> The fact that it just did without warning suggests hardware.
>
> But if a small fan failed you wouldn't know.
>
> If a drive failed you may or may not hear it.
>
> Chances are though that all you need do is hit enter to get things back.
>
> One thing that the user should try.
>
> if you use delete or whatever key that goes to the cmos does it do it.
>
> If it does, if you use a live cd with linux or something does it load.
>
> If the latter then I'll accept the windows issue.
>
> Does the pc even turn on.
>
> I had a server box I was working with, that had been hanging for ages, I turned it on to transfer all data to new hardware and it didn't power, I tried again, and it still didn't power.
>
> Later on the shop confirmed the raid boards and more importantly the boards that were the keys to all the data on the drives were on fire.
>
> We had to pay recovery to get the data.
>
> However to be honest there is a good chance your data is still in tact.
>
> Since windows manages drivers if it hangs you see something and it would restart.
>
> I had a display card do this, run the system suddenly it hangs.
>
> I did a restart, windows detected the display had hung the system, the error was intercepted by the driver software and sent to the right places, I was ordered to update the driver in fact was told how or rathr that there was a firmware bug and asked to patch it.
>
> Chances are most stuff like that well who knows.
>
> A sudden hang without any warning suggests that you have one of the following 3 failiers.
>
> 1.  psu or main power pack that can  happen.
>
> Less commen is a bad cord though you would notice internal cords failing or something before that.
>
> The processer failed.
>
> That would actually smell if it did, the main fan needs to jam on a pc and you would hear that happening before it did.
>
> The performance would go nuts same with a pc being full of dust.
>
> I had a pc fail on me for that reason it had been racing with fans up to the max all day long and I had wandered about it I did clear it out but not before some stuff died in it and I had to replace it.
>
> If a small fan failed well yeah I admit if that or your sync failed you wouldn't know about that till you actually noticed dammage.
>
> A video card or other card failed, yeah they actually do fail.
>
> You have bad ram, could happen like that ram does fail.
>
> Your board could fail, this is less likely.
>
> Your firmware has an issue.
>
> This is not a problem if you can get it updated or reflashed and stuff.
>
> Its unlikely you could have a virus or malware or any major software issue unless something is covered up that is.
>
> Software could generated a critical stop so could drivers do of 0x000 which basically means something it did went beyond the capabilities of the processer like an overflow or something dumb, but there are so many checks thats almost nonexistant now.
>
> If you didn't see smoke that doesn't mean the supply didn't just die.
>
> I once had the main system fail, and hang then die, the only thing I heard was a small pop like when I get a fax.
>
> If I was not in the same room as it I wouldn't have noticed.
>
>
>
>
>> On 6/10/2017 7:04 a.m., Gene wrote:
>> Consider what happened.  With no previous report of problems, the system completely hung.  It didn't reboot.  We don't know what, if any errors were on screen.  All this is pure speculation as to causes, corrupted files, the registry, whatever people want to speculate about.  Why would a properly functioning system suddently completely hang and then not reboot?  Until we find out what, if any error messages are on screen and if Windows even tries to boot, this is all speculation. I suspect a hardware problem.  Others suspect other causes.  I consider it premature to advise any course of action without more information.
>>
>> Gene
>> -----
>>
>> From: Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
>> Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2017 11:36 AM
>> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
>> Subject: Re: [nvda] Windows 10 is Very, Very Broken
>>
>>
>> The opposite can also be true, Most software messes with the registry, it
>> can cock it up on install, or on uninstall if it does not remember to
>> reregister any dll files it has changed or altered the classification of in
>> either case. Been there, done that got the T Shirt during xp days.
>> Its normally the dll files associated with the vearious access APIs that get
>> clobbered as the original developer probably never tested if screenreaders
>> wworked before passing the code for distribution. Brian
>>
>> bglists@...
>> Sent via blueyonder.
>> Please address personal email to:-
>> briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
>> in the display name field.
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Mallard" <mallard@...>
>> To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>> Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2017 2:17 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nvda] Windows 10 is Very, Very Broken
>>
>>
>> Hello Noah,
>>
>>
>> I wenth through a very similar ordeal during the summer.
>>
>> Sighted people could use the pc, but I couldn't. My husband tried fixing
>> Windows in all possible ways, with all possible tools. Nothing doing. We
>> couldn't even restore the pc.
>>
>> We were two seconds away from formatting, when all of a sudden he
>> mentioned a couple of programmes that I said I didn't want to be
>> reinstalled. He removed one, and nothing happened. But when he removed
>> the other one (a Bible app I needed for a translation I was doing for
>> our church group), all got back to normal.
>>
>>
>> Make sure you haven't installed any software recently, which might have
>> interfered with NVDA, before you do anything dramatic like reformatting.
>>
>>
>> This is probably not your case, but better be safe than sorry, so I
>> shared it. It might help someone.
>>
>> Ciao,
>>
>> Ollie
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Il 04/10/2017 23:26, Noah Carver via Groups.Io ha scritto:
>>> Hello List,
>>>
>>> So, my Windows 10 is really pitching a fit! This all started when I had to
>>> forse shut down my win10 machine using the power butten, because of a
>>> total system hang. Then, I turned the machine back on. But NVDA did not
>>> come back to life. I tried turning on Narrator, and it wouldn't talk.
>>> So I asked my dad to come and look at my screen. According to him, even
>>> when I pressed keys on the keyboard, the log in box wouldn't appear.
>>> I've tried ctrl alt del, I’ve tried rebooting, nothing works. Any help
>>> would be greatly appreciated. I have a radio show in two days, and I have
>>> no backup machine.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> Noah Carver
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>






Re: WebAim Screen Reader User Survey #7: Getting The Word Out About NVDA

Sarah k Alawami
 

I've heard of window bridge through some other computer tech heads last time in 2006. I actually brought up nvda to my services as they were training their clients in jaws and only jaws. They said that nvda was not good enough and never going to be good enough. That made me a bit upset as I knew the real reason they were not using nvda. They wee not going to be able to claim any government funding because nvda is free to use. I have since left services and am just learnings nvda on my own.

Take care

On Oct 5, 2017, at 4:08 PM, Randy Barnett <randy@...> wrote:

I have been using Jaws since 95 and i have never even heard of windows bridge. If it was so good why is that? theirs only 2 windows screen reading programs today Jaws and NVDA. I don't count obscure programs no one has ever heard of...
Well, Narrator but that is not a full featured program yet.

On 10/5/2017 3:44 PM, Travis Siegel wrote:

The only statement in this thread I have to take exception to is the statement that jaws was providing access before anyone else.  This statement is completely false.

The very first screen reader ever for windows was windowbridge.  Windowbridge had a lot of firsts when it comes to screen reader functionality, including some things that still don't exist in any screen reader available today, such as mouse navigation via locking vertical or horizontal movement so you could find things on the screen easier.

It also was the first screen reader to use the caps lock key as a modifier, (something each and every screen reader has copied since), and it had a lot of other firsts.  Just because a program is the most popular doesn't make it either the best, or the most advanced, or even the one with the most features.  Jaws is popular yes, but a lot of that popularity is due to the fact that state agencies and other government organizations use it and their clients use it, it isn't the mostpopular because it outstrips every other screen reader in the market with it's feature set, capabilities and it's usability.  Folks really should keep that in mind when deiscussing screen readers.  There's a reason there are multiple (and always have been) multiple screen readers.  Everyone knows, there is no such thing as one size fits all when it comes to screen readers, no program can be everything to everyone, and the screen reader market is no exception.  Each screen reader has it's pros and it's cons, and what eacyh user uses should be up to that user, only that usually isn't the case.  When I worked for a rather large computer company as a programmer and a tech support person, I did not get to choose what screen reader I wanted to use, I was told that I was going to use jaws, and that I was going to like it, because that's the only option I had.  As it turns out, the copy of jaws I got was an illegal install that wasn't registered to me, and I had to spend my own money to purchase a program I didn't want, just so I wouldn't be liable if some sort of audit came through.  Of course, said audit never did come through, but the point is, you never know what can/will happen, and if you aren't prepared, you could get in a lot of trouble, even for things you didn't do.  Had I had my choice of screen reader, it would have been window-eyes, but I wasn't asked, and I wasn't even consulted about the question.  Shortly afterwords, my case was closed by the visual services department, and I never got a single piece of help from them, even though it's their job to provide assistance with this very thing. 

This message has strayed way off topic, and even into topics I didn't intend to bring up, but it all goes together, so there it is, make of it what you like.

The point though, is that whatever the screen reader is, it really should be up to the user to choose what they want to use.  If they don't know, then showing them the options and allowing them to choose would be nice, but often times, that isn't what ahppens, and because of that, there is a false impression created that the program of choice (or the device of choice for that matter) is the best/first/what have you, when it could very just as easily be the bottom of the barrel, but nobody knows, because there is no option given.


On 10/4/2017 8:50 AM, erik burggraaf wrote:

Hi Randy,

On October 3, 2017 11:54:34 PM "Randy Barnett" <randy@...> wrote:

Jaws has gone down in price over the years.


I'll give you this.  Looking at the freedom scientific website, I can see that the home edition stands at $900, and the professional stands at $1100.  These prices are about 2 or 3 hundred dollars cheeper than when I last had ocasion to keep track some four years ago.  I guess that's about a 20% nock off.  If it doesn't seem like much, that's because 9 c's is far out of reach of the home user.  IE, government is still the primary target market for this product and I believe all my former arguments to retain validity. 
FS has been fairly competative on hardware pricing I will give them that.  I don't like most of their hardware, but I know many people who do and the price points make it attractive to both those who use it and those who pay.  Of course, people who use fs hardware naturally tend to gravitate to fs software and vice versa.  This is certainly not always the case, but I see it often. 

Even more if you figure in
inflation. It has not gone up at all. Nor is it likely too.

No, I don't buy the inflation bit either, not considering the take home of the top brass at VFO.  The pricing includes all overhead including reasonable inflation, so no.  Plus, we're still debunking the research and development argument.  Each release of jaws does not require the scratch construction of a new speech synthesizer, video display chain driver, and accessibility api among other core functions.  Programmers are talented people who diserve to be paid accordingly, but the scale of the research required to maintain jaws now is nowhere near on the scale it would have been in the late 90's when there were no such things as accessibility standards.

Also, Gene touched on it and others may have too.  They're not just selling jaws.  They're selling training at a premium.  I've seen quotes for scripting ranging from $150 per work hour, to $150 per code line.  I'm working on a human rights employment case right now and just to get an audit of what needs to be fixed in this one company from an accessibility consultant is going to cost $15000.  Just to find out what's wrong.  Now, VFO owns one of the supposed leading consulting firms in this area, which means they can test with only jaws, and tout scripting at a premium.  Also, you notice, they don't tell you how much it costs for remote access anymore?  The ominous, "call for pricing".  Let's not waste any clean-x on VFO's proffit margin shall we.

I am not a


big fan of VFO and criticize it often but they are like any other
specialized software. Have you ever price CAD, Audio design, CNC
mapping  and other similar software? they far exceed the cost of Jaws.

Nop, Gene tried this one too, and I didn't have the time to address it but lets just say... No.  If I buy jaws,  it's money spent playing catch up.  There is no doubt the benefits of hiring blind employees.  It's the law, and I need to comply.  There are lots of perripheral benefits, but no direct cost recovery.  I mearly pay to supplement what I already have.  IE, I have a great employee and an inaccessible workplace and jaws glues the two together.  But I might be able to find another great employee who doesn't need jaws, and unless I'm planning to start a sideline in some area of accessibility work, I'm not seeing  a direct return on my jaws or ansilary services like scripting.

The argument holds less water in the case of retirees who go blind later in life or other home based use cases.  How many regular people have autocad in their house in case they want to doodle?

If I'm an engineer, I buy autocad.  It is crutial to my job.  It accellerates my workflow and directly earnes me money.  If I had a professional recording studio, I'd pay top dollar for protools.  Thousands or 10's of thousands of dollars for a licence is nothing, because knowledge and use of these tools generates direct return on investment in the millians or greater.  Jaws does not offer anything close to that, so there's no comparison to be made at all.

Do I want cheaper Jaws? Of course who wants to pay more for anything!
Dont forget Jaws was providing access long before anyone else and it was
very good access at that. It has taken over 20years for someone to
provide a no cost alternative for the PC.
On 10/3/2017 7:58 PM, Gene wrote:
> It should be pointed out that System Access isn't at all equivalent to
> JAWS or Window-eyes. It cost less because it was much less capable and
> didn't have to work with nearly as many programs.  And it was often
> purchased, not as a standalone product, but with the SAM Network.  I
> don't know if I have the name just right.  But it could be purchased
> either alone or as an integrated product and I wouldn't be surprised
> if a lot or most purchasers purchased the whole package, which may
> have further led to lowering costs.  Agencies wouldn't have purchased
> it in general because their thrust was employment and System Access
> wasn't intended as an employment product.
> It was intended to give Internet Access, access to certain e-mail
> programs and to simple word processing.  It cost about half as much as
> JAWS and Window-eyes and it was perhaps one-third as powerful.
> Around 2000, whoever owned JAWS at that time attempted to address the
> affordability problem by making a product, Connect Outloud.  I believe
> you could buy it and it also came, bundled for free with Openbook. 
> What I heard when it was discontinued after perhaps two or three years
> was that there wasn't enough demand to justify continuing it.
> It provided Internet access, access to Winamp, Outlook Express,
> Wordpad, and it may have provided access to one or two other programs.
> I'm not sure why it wasn't popular at the time, given the number of
> home users who didn't need a powerful screen-reader and the price of
> JAWS and Window-eyes and, as I recall, it was before System Access.
> But those who insist on viewing whoever owns JAWS throughout its
> history as predators, perhaps they should consider this information.
> As far as whether HJAWs developers do enough work to justify the price
> currently, I don't know.
> Gene
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Lino Morales <mailto:linomorales001@...>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 03, 2017 6:08 PM
> *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> *Subject:* Re: [nvda] WebAim Screen Reader User Survey #7: Getting The
> Word Out About NVDA
>
> Great post Eric. I wasn't around in the 70's or didn't know jack horse
> maneur about AT. Viva la NVDA!
>
>
> On 10/2/2017 5:50 PM, erik burggraaf wrote:
>>
>> Lots of for proffit companies made free or low cost screen readers.
>> Serotek for one.  Apple for another.  I'd say both companies were
>> successful to one degree or another.  So, why didn't we see
>> governments lining up to pay for system access?  Well, to a lesser
>> extent some did, but if screen readers cost less, then the funding
>> becomes less and the portfoleos of nondisabled people making big
>> money from accessibility legislation shrink.  We certainly don't want
>> that.  But even at that, system access and the system access network
>> lasted for a very long time, largely on consumer driven support.
>>
>> NVDA didn't succeed because it was not for proffit.  It succeded
>> because of the dedication of the people who started it, and the
>> following those founders were able to inspire. It's sustainable
>> because of the people who work on it. The fact that it is non for
>> proffit gives it certain advantages such as the fact that it can't be
>> subsumed by a for proffit.  Lots of free windows screen readers
>> entered and left the market in the past 10 years.  NVDA is the only
>> one to thrive, much less survive, and it's because of the talendt,
>> and the management.
>>
>> Then again, the fact that NVDA itself is non for proffit hasn't
>> prevented the organization from accepting grants and sponsorships
>> from for proffit companies, and whatever I may think of those
>> companies individually, the output from those grants contributed to
>> the general effectiveness of NVDA, which lead to more adoption which
>> lead to donation revinue, which lead to more improvements until we
>> have the body of work which now is viable enough to stand up to a
>> commercial product in the vast majority of situations.
>>
>> So, we'll have to agree to disagree on this.  I've heard all the
>> arguments for nearly as long as you have.  I'll allow there was a
>> time when they may have made sense to one degree or another. 
>> Certainly the first opticon and kurzweil reading machine costed
>> enormously more in terms of research and development than say the
>> knfb reader mobile app.  In fact, vast commercial uses for scanning,
>> ocr, text to speech, dictation, and other technologies developed for
>> disability communities are prevailant and highly intergrated into
>> modern society.  Accessibility legislation is between 25 and 50 years
>> old.  Commercial standards for developing things to be accessible are
>> well established and supported by legislation.  Time and talent still
>> cost money, but we stand on the shoulders of giants.  It's not what
>> it was in the late 70's and early 80's.  Completely different situation.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Erik
>>
>> On October 2, 2017 5:25:39 PM "Gene" <gsasner@...> wrote:
>>
>>> That is not correct and I've seen that argument many times.  JAWS is
>>> expensive because it is a specialized product with a tiny market. 
>>> If Windows had the number of users JAWS has, it would be 
>>> exorbitantly expensive as well.  It's mass production with enormous
>>> customer bases that makes most manufactured products we use
>>> inexpensive. You can argue about whether institutions could cause
>>> the price of JAWS to be lower by negotiating, I don't know if the
>>> owners of JAWS charge more than they need to to make a product.  But
>>> anyone on this list who purchases or has purchased a sophisticated
>>> computer program that sells to a very small audience will confirm
>>> that such products are very expensive. Institutions may be
>>> bureaucratic but they aren't fools.  Entrepreneurs are creative and
>>> inventive.  If it were possible to have a screen-reader with the
>>> power and sophistication of JAWS for significantly less, someone
>>> would have entered the market at a cheaper price.  They've had more
>>> than two decades to do so in the case of Windows screen-readers. 
>>> Where are they, or even one?
>>> The only way a powerful screen-reader has been developed that is
>>> within the reach of a lot of blind people is to completely work
>>> outside of the for profit model.  NVDA is free because it is not a
>>> for profit product and relies on people working for about minimum
>>> wage, grants, and volunteers to develop and create add ons.  Which
>>> proves my point.  Someone else did fill the need for a screen-reader
>>> for people who can't afford a for profit screen--reader but it was
>>> outside of the for profit model.  Entrepreneurs are creative and
>>> motivated enough that, as I said, if a for profit screen-reader
>>> could be developed  for a significantly cheaper price, it would have
>>> been long ago.
>>> Gene
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> *From:* erik burggraaf <mailto:erik@...>
>>> *Sent:* Monday, October 02, 2017 4:03 PM
>>> *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>>> *Subject:* Re: [nvda] WebAim Screen Reader User Survey #7: Getting
>>> The Word Out About NVDA
>>>
>>> Accessibility laws change the game.  The market for jaws is
>>> different from the market of most other products. The primary target
>>> market doesn't actually use the product.  The reason commercial
>>> screen readers are sustainable is that governments in developed
>>> countrys have legislated that the government must accept the
>>> financial cost of communication aids for people with print
>>> disabilities as a means of leveling the playing field.  That is why
>>> the cost of the tecchnologies has always been out of reach for most
>>> blind consumers, and very little to do with the development cost and
>>> comparitive small size of the market as most commercial access
>>> technologists claim.
>>>
>>> So, there's no evidence to suggest that vfo or any company is
>>> planning to jack up prices even higher than they already are, but
>>> there are legislative hooks that might allow them to if they wanted.
>>>
>>> I really think though that they are battoning down and preparing to
>>> ride out the end times with what they have.  The consolidation has
>>> pretty much taken place.  A few straglers haven't bought in or bowed
>>> out, but they have unique markets of their own.
>>>
>>> The government funding that constitutes the primary support for
>>> products like jaws is on the severe decline as the use cases for the
>>> products over cheeper less specialized alternatives growes less and
>>> less by the day.  If the size of the market dictated the price as
>>> they always claimed, then considering the dwindling share of the
>>> market controlled by commercial AT, it makes sense that the price
>>> would go up, especially in the case of VFO's new exclusivity
>>> agreements in geographic regions that were either not controlled or
>>> controlled by companies that are no more.  The odd thing is, with
>>> NVDA distributed free as a noncommercial product, I doubt it falls
>>> under the commercial exclusivity agreements anyhow.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Erik
>>>
>>> On October 2, 2017 4:24:22 PM "Gene" <gsasner@...> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Why would the owners of JAWS commit suicide or strongly encourage
>>>> purchasers not to use their product by doing something ridiculous,
>>>> as you suggest? They won't.  I don't know if they will try
>>>> different prices as time goes on to get the most profit from the
>>>> most or optimum number of sales, but that is different from
>>>> behaving irrationally.  Is this part of the JAWS is greedy and can
>>>> charge anything it wants argument?  It doesn't matter in the
>>>> context of this argument, that I've heard for two decades with no
>>>> meaningful proof given, whether JAWS is greedy or not.  What
>>>> matters is that JAWS doesn't exist in a vacuum.  It may charge what
>>>> the market will bear but it still operates in a market.  If
>>>> institutions are willing to pay a price, JAWS may decide to charge
>>>> it.  But that doesn't mean that institutions are irrational. They
>>>> aren't going to accept a thousand percent price rise of a product
>>>> just because JAWS owners decide to try to charge it.
>>>> Gene
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> *From:* Sky Mundell <mailto:skyt@...>
>>>> *Sent:* Monday, October 02, 2017 3:00 PM
>>>> *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>>>> *Subject:* Re: [nvda] WebAim Screen Reader User Survey #7: Getting
>>>> The Word Out About NVDA
>>>>
>>>> I totally agree with you Erick. The education institutions that
>>>> deliver equipment to students in Vancouver and around BC and here
>>>> in Victoria haven’t really embraced NVDA but I can see them
>>>> embracing NVDA sooner rather than later. Remember, FS always saw
>>>> its main competition, Window-Eyes as a threat. Since the main
>>>> competition is now gone, , eventually VFO could raise the price of
>>>> JAWS a lot higher, say, to $10000 or so, and that would force
>>>> educational institutions to go with NVDA.
>>>>
>>>> *From:*nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] *On Behalf
>>>> Of *erik burggraaf
>>>> *Sent:* Monday, October 02, 2017 10:12 AM
>>>> *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io
>>>> *Subject:* Re: [nvda] WebAim Screen Reader User Survey #7: Getting
>>>> The Word Out About NVDA
>>>>
>>>> The sample size is very small in these surveys,  but they
>>>> definitely show the paradigm shift and I won't be surprised at all
>>>> to see mobile, mac voiceover, and nvda useage up, and jaws useage
>>>> down.  Window-eyes use should fall right off the charts since the
>>>> product is discontinued.  This will help slow the skid of jaws, but
>>>> I think at least as many window-eyes switchers made it to NVDA as
>>>> to jaws, despite the fact that jaws 18 was a free upgrade for Many
>>>> window-eyes users.
>>>>
>>>> Since the new paradigm puts the blind more or less on an equal
>>>> playing field, and social, legal and economic trends all support
>>>> moving in that direction it shouldn't be too surprising that blind
>>>> users want it more and more.  I have thought for years that 2021 is
>>>> about the final stopping point for old paradigm designs,
>>>> particularly the personal computer, but I can see a lot of
>>>> tradition going by the board by then.  This is all good for us, and
>>>> it's nice to have something concreet to demonstrate the trend we
>>>> can all see happening around us.
>>>>
>>>> Have fun,
>>>>
>>>> Erik
>>>>
>>>> On October 2, 2017 12:57:37 AM "Sarah k Alawami"
>>>> <marrie12@... <mailto:marrie12@...>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>     Wow, interesting. I'm not surprised. I wonder what we'll see
>>>>     this year now that a lot of us are switching to nvda and or
>>>>     android and or voiceover.
>>>>
>>>>     Take care
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>     On Oct 1, 2017, at 9:34 PM, Gene New Zealand
>>>>     <hurrikennyandopo@...
>>>>     <mailto:hurrikennyandopo@...>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>     hi Bhavya
>>>>
>>>>     I have been following the surveys after they  survey  has finished.
>>>>
>>>>     I have also been noticing that the number of jaws users have
>>>>     been dropping along with a few of the commercial screen users
>>>>     and magnifiers etc.
>>>>
>>>>     Also the use of mobile units starting to rise as in the use of
>>>>     android and apple devices that can go portable.
>>>>
>>>>     For me mostly home use is nvda 100 percent of the time and if
>>>>     mobile a android device.
>>>>
>>>>     Gene nz
>>>>
>>>>     On 10/1/2017 2:20 AM, Bhavya shah wrote:
>>>>
>>>>         Dear all,
>>>>
>>>>         Since almost a decade, WebAim, a non-profit web accessibility
>>>>
>>>>         consultancy organisation, has been conducting an annual
>>>>         (sometimes
>>>>
>>>>         biennial) survey, which, as its name implies, attempts to
>>>>         gather
>>>>
>>>>         statistics about the usage share of different screen readers,
>>>>
>>>>         technology (particularly Internet) accessibility trends,
>>>>         etc. so as to
>>>>
>>>>         aid analysts, researchers, accessibility consultants, sighted
>>>>
>>>>         developers, and mainstream companies to get a quantified
>>>>         picture of
>>>>
>>>>         the state of the AT industry.
>>>>
>>>>         While this survey features participation from varied
>>>>         geographies,
>>>>
>>>>         NVDA’s user base, at least in my personal view, has always been
>>>>
>>>>         understated. While 8% respondents of the first December
>>>>         2008 WebAim
>>>>
>>>>         survey reported to be NVDA users, this figure has only
>>>>         increased to
>>>>
>>>>         14% of respondents in its 2015 counterpart claiming to use
>>>>         NVDA as
>>>>
>>>>         their primary screen reader and 41% using it commonly, a
>>>>         usage share
>>>>
>>>>         substantially lower than NVDA’s commercial and more
>>>>         expensive screen
>>>>
>>>>         reading alternatives.
>>>>
>>>>         I think it would be a great way of playing our tiny part in
>>>>         getting
>>>>
>>>>         the word out about NVDA’s viability and competency  if all NVDA
>>>>
>>>>         community members, users, testers and other related parties,
>>>>
>>>>         particularly from second and third world developing regions
>>>>         which
>>>>
>>>>         often remain silent for such surveys but where free and
>>>>         open source
>>>>
>>>>         NVDA makes a prominent impact, take this survey and
>>>>         contribute to
>>>>
>>>>         letting the world know about the size and standing of the
>>>>         NVDA user
>>>>
>>>>         base.
>>>>
>>>>         The URL of said survey is
>>>>         https://webaim.org/projects/screenreadersurvey7/
>>>>
>>>>         .
>>>>
>>>>         It took me about ten minutes to fill this survey and the
>>>>         form was
>>>>
>>>>         extremely accessible. Not only from an NVDA angle, but
>>>>         filling such
>>>>
>>>>         surveys always brings out useful and reflective data,
>>>>         which, in turn,
>>>>
>>>>         betters AT as a whole. Therefore, I urge everyone to take
>>>>         some time
>>>>
>>>>         out for this survey so that we can make the data truly
>>>>         reflective of
>>>>
>>>>         the actualities.
>>>>
>>>>         Thanks.
>>>>
>>>>         P.S. I am in no way affiliated to WebAim nor is my
>>>>         intention to merely
>>>>
>>>>         promote this survey.
>>>>
>>>>     --
>>>>     Image NVDA certified expert
>>>>
>>>>     Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness
>>>>     related material at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net
>>>>     <http://www.accessibilitycentral.net/> Regardless of where you
>>>>     are in New Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you
>>>>     can use a copy of the NVDA screen reader on one of their
>>>>     computers. To find out which locations (or location) is near to
>>>>     you please visit
>>>>     http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries
>>>>     (Aotearoa People's Network Kaharoa). To find an NVDA certified
>>>>     expert near you, please visit the following link
>>>>     https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The certification page
>>>>     contains the official list of NVDA certified individuals from
>>>>     around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA
>>>>     expert exam.
>>>>
>
>

--
Sincereley: Randy Barnett
Owner of Soundtique.
707-502-5575
1897 SE Dr.
Grants Pass, Or. 97526



Virus-free. www.avast.com




Resource Monitor 17.10 released #addonrelease

 

Hi everyone,

 

I’m delighted to announce the immediate release or Resource Monitor 17.10 stable version. In addition to recognizing Windows 10 build 16299 as Fall Creators Update, this is the last stable release to support Windows XP. More info can be found at:

https://github.com/josephsl/resourcemonitor/releases/tag/17.10

 

Cheers,

Joseph


Re: WebAim Screen Reader User Survey #7: Getting The Word Out About NVDA

Travis Siegel <tsiegel@...>
 

Thank you, you just proved my point.  Remember I said just because a program is the most popular doesn't make it first/best/any number of other things?


On 10/5/2017 7:08 PM, Randy Barnett wrote:
I have been using Jaws since 95 and i have never even heard of windows bridge. If it was so good why is that? theirs only 2 windows screen reading programs today Jaws and NVDA. I don't count obscure programs no one has ever heard of...
Well, Narrator but that is not a full featured program yet.

On 10/5/2017 3:44 PM, Travis Siegel wrote:

The only statement in this thread I have to take exception to is the statement that jaws was providing access before anyone else.  This statement is completely false.

The very first screen reader ever for windows was windowbridge.  Windowbridge had a lot of firsts when it comes to screen reader functionality, including some things that still don't exist in any screen reader available today, such as mouse navigation via locking vertical or horizontal movement so you could find things on the screen easier.

It also was the first screen reader to use the caps lock key as a modifier, (something each and every screen reader has copied since), and it had a lot of other firsts.  Just because a program is the most popular doesn't make it either the best, or the most advanced, or even the one with the most features.  Jaws is popular yes, but a lot of that popularity is due to the fact that state agencies and other government organizations use it and their clients use it, it isn't the mostpopular because it outstrips every other screen reader in the market with it's feature set, capabilities and it's usability.  Folks really should keep that in mind when deiscussing screen readers.  There's a reason there are multiple (and always have been) multiple screen readers.  Everyone knows, there is no such thing as one size fits all when it comes to screen readers, no program can be everything to everyone, and the screen reader market is no exception.  Each screen reader has it's pros and it's cons, and what eacyh user uses should be up to that user, only that usually isn't the case.  When I worked for a rather large computer company as a programmer and a tech support person, I did not get to choose what screen reader I wanted to use, I was told that I was going to use jaws, and that I was going to like it, because that's the only option I had.  As it turns out, the copy of jaws I got was an illegal install that wasn't registered to me, and I had to spend my own money to purchase a program I didn't want, just so I wouldn't be liable if some sort of audit came through.  Of course, said audit never did come through, but the point is, you never know what can/will happen, and if you aren't prepared, you could get in a lot of trouble, even for things you didn't do.  Had I had my choice of screen reader, it would have been window-eyes, but I wasn't asked, and I wasn't even consulted about the question.  Shortly afterwords, my case was closed by the visual services department, and I never got a single piece of help from them, even though it's their job to provide assistance with this very thing. 

This message has strayed way off topic, and even into topics I didn't intend to bring up, but it all goes together, so there it is, make of it what you like.

The point though, is that whatever the screen reader is, it really should be up to the user to choose what they want to use.  If they don't know, then showing them the options and allowing them to choose would be nice, but often times, that isn't what ahppens, and because of that, there is a false impression created that the program of choice (or the device of choice for that matter) is the best/first/what have you, when it could very just as easily be the bottom of the barrel, but nobody knows, because there is no option given.


On 10/4/2017 8:50 AM, erik burggraaf wrote:

Hi Randy,

On October 3, 2017 11:54:34 PM "Randy Barnett" <randy@...> wrote:

Jaws has gone down in price over the years.


I'll give you this.  Looking at the freedom scientific website, I can see that the home edition stands at $900, and the professional stands at $1100.  These prices are about 2 or 3 hundred dollars cheeper than when I last had ocasion to keep track some four years ago.  I guess that's about a 20% nock off.  If it doesn't seem like much, that's because 9 c's is far out of reach of the home user.  IE, government is still the primary target market for this product and I believe all my former arguments to retain validity. 
FS has been fairly competative on hardware pricing I will give them that.  I don't like most of their hardware, but I know many people who do and the price points make it attractive to both those who use it and those who pay.  Of course, people who use fs hardware naturally tend to gravitate to fs software and vice versa.  This is certainly not always the case, but I see it often. 

Even more if you figure in
inflation. It has not gone up at all. Nor is it likely too.

No, I don't buy the inflation bit either, not considering the take home of the top brass at VFO.  The pricing includes all overhead including reasonable inflation, so no.  Plus, we're still debunking the research and development argument.  Each release of jaws does not require the scratch construction of a new speech synthesizer, video display chain driver, and accessibility api among other core functions.  Programmers are talented people who diserve to be paid accordingly, but the scale of the research required to maintain jaws now is nowhere near on the scale it would have been in the late 90's when there were no such things as accessibility standards.

Also, Gene touched on it and others may have too.  They're not just selling jaws.  They're selling training at a premium.  I've seen quotes for scripting ranging from $150 per work hour, to $150 per code line.  I'm working on a human rights employment case right now and just to get an audit of what needs to be fixed in this one company from an accessibility consultant is going to cost $15000.  Just to find out what's wrong.  Now, VFO owns one of the supposed leading consulting firms in this area, which means they can test with only jaws, and tout scripting at a premium.  Also, you notice, they don't tell you how much it costs for remote access anymore?  The ominous, "call for pricing".  Let's not waste any clean-x on VFO's proffit margin shall we.

I am not a


big fan of VFO and criticize it often but they are like any other
specialized software. Have you ever price CAD, Audio design, CNC
mapping  and other similar software? they far exceed the cost of Jaws.

Nop, Gene tried this one too, and I didn't have the time to address it but lets just say... No.  If I buy jaws,  it's money spent playing catch up.  There is no doubt the benefits of hiring blind employees.  It's the law, and I need to comply.  There are lots of perripheral benefits, but no direct cost recovery.  I mearly pay to supplement what I already have.  IE, I have a great employee and an inaccessible workplace and jaws glues the two together.  But I might be able to find another great employee who doesn't need jaws, and unless I'm planning to start a sideline in some area of accessibility work, I'm not seeing  a direct return on my jaws or ansilary services like scripting.

The argument holds less water in the case of retirees who go blind later in life or other home based use cases.  How many regular people have autocad in their house in case they want to doodle?

If I'm an engineer, I buy autocad.  It is crutial to my job.  It accellerates my workflow and directly earnes me money.  If I had a professional recording studio, I'd pay top dollar for protools.  Thousands or 10's of thousands of dollars for a licence is nothing, because knowledge and use of these tools generates direct return on investment in the millians or greater.  Jaws does not offer anything close to that, so there's no comparison to be made at all.

Do I want cheaper Jaws? Of course who wants to pay more for anything!
Dont forget Jaws was providing access long before anyone else and it was
very good access at that. It has taken over 20years for someone to
provide a no cost alternative for the PC.
On 10/3/2017 7:58 PM, Gene wrote:
> It should be pointed out that System Access isn't at all equivalent to
> JAWS or Window-eyes. It cost less because it was much less capable and
> didn't have to work with nearly as many programs.  And it was often
> purchased, not as a standalone product, but with the SAM Network.  I
> don't know if I have the name just right.  But it could be purchased
> either alone or as an integrated product and I wouldn't be surprised
> if a lot or most purchasers purchased the whole package, which may
> have further led to lowering costs.  Agencies wouldn't have purchased
> it in general because their thrust was employment and System Access
> wasn't intended as an employment product.
> It was intended to give Internet Access, access to certain e-mail
> programs and to simple word processing.  It cost about half as much as
> JAWS and Window-eyes and it was perhaps one-third as powerful.
> Around 2000, whoever owned JAWS at that time attempted to address the
> affordability problem by making a product, Connect Outloud.  I believe
> you could buy it and it also came, bundled for free with Openbook. 
> What I heard when it was discontinued after perhaps two or three years
> was that there wasn't enough demand to justify continuing it.
> It provided Internet access, access to Winamp, Outlook Express,
> Wordpad, and it may have provided access to one or two other programs.
> I'm not sure why it wasn't popular at the time, given the number of
> home users who didn't need a powerful screen-reader and the price of
> JAWS and Window-eyes and, as I recall, it was before System Access.
> But those who insist on viewing whoever owns JAWS throughout its
> history as predators, perhaps they should consider this information.
> As far as whether HJAWs developers do enough work to justify the price
> currently, I don't know.
> Gene
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Lino Morales <mailto:linomorales001@...>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 03, 2017 6:08 PM
> *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> *Subject:* Re: [nvda] WebAim Screen Reader User Survey #7: Getting The
> Word Out About NVDA
>
> Great post Eric. I wasn't around in the 70's or didn't know jack horse
> maneur about AT. Viva la NVDA!
>
>
> On 10/2/2017 5:50 PM, erik burggraaf wrote:
>>
>> Lots of for proffit companies made free or low cost screen readers.
>> Serotek for one.  Apple for another.  I'd say both companies were
>> successful to one degree or another.  So, why didn't we see
>> governments lining up to pay for system access?  Well, to a lesser
>> extent some did, but if screen readers cost less, then the funding
>> becomes less and the portfoleos of nondisabled people making big
>> money from accessibility legislation shrink.  We certainly don't want
>> that.  But even at that, system access and the system access network
>> lasted for a very long time, largely on consumer driven support.
>>
>> NVDA didn't succeed because it was not for proffit.  It succeded
>> because of the dedication of the people who started it, and the
>> following those founders were able to inspire. It's sustainable
>> because of the people who work on it. The fact that it is non for
>> proffit gives it certain advantages such as the fact that it can't be
>> subsumed by a for proffit.  Lots of free windows screen readers
>> entered and left the market in the past 10 years.  NVDA is the only
>> one to thrive, much less survive, and it's because of the talendt,
>> and the management.
>>
>> Then again, the fact that NVDA itself is non for proffit hasn't
>> prevented the organization from accepting grants and sponsorships
>> from for proffit companies, and whatever I may think of those
>> companies individually, the output from those grants contributed to
>> the general effectiveness of NVDA, which lead to more adoption which
>> lead to donation revinue, which lead to more improvements until we
>> have the body of work which now is viable enough to stand up to a
>> commercial product in the vast majority of situations.
>>
>> So, we'll have to agree to disagree on this.  I've heard all the
>> arguments for nearly as long as you have.  I'll allow there was a
>> time when they may have made sense to one degree or another. 
>> Certainly the first opticon and kurzweil reading machine costed
>> enormously more in terms of research and development than say the
>> knfb reader mobile app.  In fact, vast commercial uses for scanning,
>> ocr, text to speech, dictation, and other technologies developed for
>> disability communities are prevailant and highly intergrated into
>> modern society.  Accessibility legislation is between 25 and 50 years
>> old.  Commercial standards for developing things to be accessible are
>> well established and supported by legislation.  Time and talent still
>> cost money, but we stand on the shoulders of giants.  It's not what
>> it was in the late 70's and early 80's.  Completely different situation.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Erik
>>
>> On October 2, 2017 5:25:39 PM "Gene" <gsasner@...> wrote:
>>
>>> That is not correct and I've seen that argument many times.  JAWS is
>>> expensive because it is a specialized product with a tiny market. 
>>> If Windows had the number of users JAWS has, it would be 
>>> exorbitantly expensive as well.  It's mass production with enormous
>>> customer bases that makes most manufactured products we use
>>> inexpensive. You can argue about whether institutions could cause
>>> the price of JAWS to be lower by negotiating, I don't know if the
>>> owners of JAWS charge more than they need to to make a product.  But
>>> anyone on this list who purchases or has purchased a sophisticated
>>> computer program that sells to a very small audience will confirm
>>> that such products are very expensive. Institutions may be
>>> bureaucratic but they aren't fools.  Entrepreneurs are creative and
>>> inventive.  If it were possible to have a screen-reader with the
>>> power and sophistication of JAWS for significantly less, someone
>>> would have entered the market at a cheaper price.  They've had more
>>> than two decades to do so in the case of Windows screen-readers. 
>>> Where are they, or even one?
>>> The only way a powerful screen-reader has been developed that is
>>> within the reach of a lot of blind people is to completely work
>>> outside of the for profit model.  NVDA is free because it is not a
>>> for profit product and relies on people working for about minimum
>>> wage, grants, and volunteers to develop and create add ons.  Which
>>> proves my point.  Someone else did fill the need for a screen-reader
>>> for people who can't afford a for profit screen--reader but it was
>>> outside of the for profit model.  Entrepreneurs are creative and
>>> motivated enough that, as I said, if a for profit screen-reader
>>> could be developed  for a significantly cheaper price, it would have
>>> been long ago.
>>> Gene
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> *From:* erik burggraaf <mailto:erik@...>
>>> *Sent:* Monday, October 02, 2017 4:03 PM
>>> *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>>> *Subject:* Re: [nvda] WebAim Screen Reader User Survey #7: Getting
>>> The Word Out About NVDA
>>>
>>> Accessibility laws change the game.  The market for jaws is
>>> different from the market of most other products. The primary target
>>> market doesn't actually use the product.  The reason commercial
>>> screen readers are sustainable is that governments in developed
>>> countrys have legislated that the government must accept the
>>> financial cost of communication aids for people with print
>>> disabilities as a means of leveling the playing field.  That is why
>>> the cost of the tecchnologies has always been out of reach for most
>>> blind consumers, and very little to do with the development cost and
>>> comparitive small size of the market as most commercial access
>>> technologists claim.
>>>
>>> So, there's no evidence to suggest that vfo or any company is
>>> planning to jack up prices even higher than they already are, but
>>> there are legislative hooks that might allow them to if they wanted.
>>>
>>> I really think though that they are battoning down and preparing to
>>> ride out the end times with what they have.  The consolidation has
>>> pretty much taken place.  A few straglers haven't bought in or bowed
>>> out, but they have unique markets of their own.
>>>
>>> The government funding that constitutes the primary support for
>>> products like jaws is on the severe decline as the use cases for the
>>> products over cheeper less specialized alternatives growes less and
>>> less by the day.  If the size of the market dictated the price as
>>> they always claimed, then considering the dwindling share of the
>>> market controlled by commercial AT, it makes sense that the price
>>> would go up, especially in the case of VFO's new exclusivity
>>> agreements in geographic regions that were either not controlled or
>>> controlled by companies that are no more.  The odd thing is, with
>>> NVDA distributed free as a noncommercial product, I doubt it falls
>>> under the commercial exclusivity agreements anyhow.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Erik
>>>
>>> On October 2, 2017 4:24:22 PM "Gene" <gsasner@...> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Why would the owners of JAWS commit suicide or strongly encourage
>>>> purchasers not to use their product by doing something ridiculous,
>>>> as you suggest? They won't.  I don't know if they will try
>>>> different prices as time goes on to get the most profit from the
>>>> most or optimum number of sales, but that is different from
>>>> behaving irrationally.  Is this part of the JAWS is greedy and can
>>>> charge anything it wants argument?  It doesn't matter in the
>>>> context of this argument, that I've heard for two decades with no
>>>> meaningful proof given, whether JAWS is greedy or not.  What
>>>> matters is that JAWS doesn't exist in a vacuum.  It may charge what
>>>> the market will bear but it still operates in a market.  If
>>>> institutions are willing to pay a price, JAWS may decide to charge
>>>> it.  But that doesn't mean that institutions are irrational. They
>>>> aren't going to accept a thousand percent price rise of a product
>>>> just because JAWS owners decide to try to charge it.
>>>> Gene
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> *From:* Sky Mundell <mailto:skyt@...>
>>>> *Sent:* Monday, October 02, 2017 3:00 PM
>>>> *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>>>> *Subject:* Re: [nvda] WebAim Screen Reader User Survey #7: Getting
>>>> The Word Out About NVDA
>>>>
>>>> I totally agree with you Erick. The education institutions that
>>>> deliver equipment to students in Vancouver and around BC and here
>>>> in Victoria haven’t really embraced NVDA but I can see them
>>>> embracing NVDA sooner rather than later. Remember, FS always saw
>>>> its main competition, Window-Eyes as a threat. Since the main
>>>> competition is now gone, , eventually VFO could raise the price of
>>>> JAWS a lot higher, say, to $10000 or so, and that would force
>>>> educational institutions to go with NVDA.
>>>>
>>>> *From:*nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] *On Behalf
>>>> Of *erik burggraaf
>>>> *Sent:* Monday, October 02, 2017 10:12 AM
>>>> *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io
>>>> *Subject:* Re: [nvda] WebAim Screen Reader User Survey #7: Getting
>>>> The Word Out About NVDA
>>>>
>>>> The sample size is very small in these surveys,  but they
>>>> definitely show the paradigm shift and I won't be surprised at all
>>>> to see mobile, mac voiceover, and nvda useage up, and jaws useage
>>>> down.  Window-eyes use should fall right off the charts since the
>>>> product is discontinued.  This will help slow the skid of jaws, but
>>>> I think at least as many window-eyes switchers made it to NVDA as
>>>> to jaws, despite the fact that jaws 18 was a free upgrade for Many
>>>> window-eyes users.
>>>>
>>>> Since the new paradigm puts the blind more or less on an equal
>>>> playing field, and social, legal and economic trends all support
>>>> moving in that direction it shouldn't be too surprising that blind
>>>> users want it more and more.  I have thought for years that 2021 is
>>>> about the final stopping point for old paradigm designs,
>>>> particularly the personal computer, but I can see a lot of
>>>> tradition going by the board by then.  This is all good for us, and
>>>> it's nice to have something concreet to demonstrate the trend we
>>>> can all see happening around us.
>>>>
>>>> Have fun,
>>>>
>>>> Erik
>>>>
>>>> On October 2, 2017 12:57:37 AM "Sarah k Alawami"
>>>> <marrie12@... <mailto:marrie12@...>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>     Wow, interesting. I'm not surprised. I wonder what we'll see
>>>>     this year now that a lot of us are switching to nvda and or
>>>>     android and or voiceover.
>>>>
>>>>     Take care
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>     On Oct 1, 2017, at 9:34 PM, Gene New Zealand
>>>>     <hurrikennyandopo@...
>>>>     <mailto:hurrikennyandopo@...>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>     hi Bhavya
>>>>
>>>>     I have been following the surveys after they  survey  has finished.
>>>>
>>>>     I have also been noticing that the number of jaws users have
>>>>     been dropping along with a few of the commercial screen users
>>>>     and magnifiers etc.
>>>>
>>>>     Also the use of mobile units starting to rise as in the use of
>>>>     android and apple devices that can go portable.
>>>>
>>>>     For me mostly home use is nvda 100 percent of the time and if
>>>>     mobile a android device.
>>>>
>>>>     Gene nz
>>>>
>>>>     On 10/1/2017 2:20 AM, Bhavya shah wrote:
>>>>
>>>>         Dear all,
>>>>
>>>>         Since almost a decade, WebAim, a non-profit web accessibility
>>>>
>>>>         consultancy organisation, has been conducting an annual
>>>>         (sometimes
>>>>
>>>>         biennial) survey, which, as its name implies, attempts to
>>>>         gather
>>>>
>>>>         statistics about the usage share of different screen readers,
>>>>
>>>>         technology (particularly Internet) accessibility trends,
>>>>         etc. so as to
>>>>
>>>>         aid analysts, researchers, accessibility consultants, sighted
>>>>
>>>>         developers, and mainstream companies to get a quantified
>>>>         picture of
>>>>
>>>>         the state of the AT industry.
>>>>
>>>>         While this survey features participation from varied
>>>>         geographies,
>>>>
>>>>         NVDA’s user base, at least in my personal view, has always been
>>>>
>>>>         understated. While 8% respondents of the first December
>>>>         2008 WebAim
>>>>
>>>>         survey reported to be NVDA users, this figure has only
>>>>         increased to
>>>>
>>>>         14% of respondents in its 2015 counterpart claiming to use
>>>>         NVDA as
>>>>
>>>>         their primary screen reader and 41% using it commonly, a
>>>>         usage share
>>>>
>>>>         substantially lower than NVDA’s commercial and more
>>>>         expensive screen
>>>>
>>>>         reading alternatives.
>>>>
>>>>         I think it would be a great way of playing our tiny part in
>>>>         getting
>>>>
>>>>         the word out about NVDA’s viability and competency  if all NVDA
>>>>
>>>>         community members, users, testers and other related parties,
>>>>
>>>>         particularly from second and third world developing regions
>>>>         which
>>>>
>>>>         often remain silent for such surveys but where free and
>>>>         open source
>>>>
>>>>         NVDA makes a prominent impact, take this survey and
>>>>         contribute to
>>>>
>>>>         letting the world know about the size and standing of the
>>>>         NVDA user
>>>>
>>>>         base.
>>>>
>>>>         The URL of said survey is
>>>>         https://webaim.org/projects/screenreadersurvey7/
>>>>
>>>>         .
>>>>
>>>>         It took me about ten minutes to fill this survey and the
>>>>         form was
>>>>
>>>>         extremely accessible. Not only from an NVDA angle, but
>>>>         filling such
>>>>
>>>>         surveys always brings out useful and reflective data,
>>>>         which, in turn,
>>>>
>>>>         betters AT as a whole. Therefore, I urge everyone to take
>>>>         some time
>>>>
>>>>         out for this survey so that we can make the data truly
>>>>         reflective of
>>>>
>>>>         the actualities.
>>>>
>>>>         Thanks.
>>>>
>>>>         P.S. I am in no way affiliated to WebAim nor is my
>>>>         intention to merely
>>>>
>>>>         promote this survey.
>>>>
>>>>     --
>>>>     Image NVDA certified expert
>>>>
>>>>     Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness
>>>>     related material at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net
>>>>     <http://www.accessibilitycentral.net/> Regardless of where you
>>>>     are in New Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you
>>>>     can use a copy of the NVDA screen reader on one of their
>>>>     computers. To find out which locations (or location) is near to
>>>>     you please visit
>>>>     http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries
>>>>     (Aotearoa People's Network Kaharoa). To find an NVDA certified
>>>>     expert near you, please visit the following link
>>>>     https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The certification page
>>>>     contains the official list of NVDA certified individuals from
>>>>     around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA
>>>>     expert exam.
>>>>
>
>

--
Sincereley: Randy Barnett
Owner of Soundtique.
707-502-5575
1897 SE Dr.
Grants Pass, Or. 97526



Virus-free. www.avast.com




Re: Windows 10 is Very, Very Broken

Gene
 

Now that we have more information, you have a much better chance of getting help.  Are you receiving mail as a digest?  You said you needed help fast so I wonder why you didn't respond for a day or more after your first message.  I would suggest not using digest delivery if you want informnation in a timely manner, if you are using digest delivery now. 
 
I don't know what caused the hang, but the problem you are discussing doesn't appear to be a hardware problem. 
 
Windows used to have a way of having it use the last good configuration.  If Windows 10 still has that option, that might be the best thing to try first.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2017 6:10 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Windows 10 is Very, Very Broken

OK, so here’s some more in-depth explanation. When does does boot. Boots all the way up until the lock screen. The lock screen appears, showing a lovely photo that Microsoft auto generate. But then I press control to bring up the password entry field, nothing happens. It’s basically locked on the lock screen. That’s my problem. I don’t believe that this is a hardware issue, as windows boot fine. I’m more inclined to believe it has something to do with windows it’s self.

> On Oct 5, 2017, at 15:04, Shaun Everiss <sm.everiss@...> wrote:
>
> Well a system hang could be many things.
>
> The fact that it just did without warning suggests hardware.
>
> But if a small fan failed you wouldn't know.
>
> If a drive failed you may or may not hear it.
>
> Chances are though that all you need do is hit enter to get things back.
>
> One thing that the user should try.
>
> if you use delete or whatever key that goes to the cmos does it do it.
>
> If it does, if you use a live cd with linux or something does it load.
>
> If the latter then I'll accept the windows issue.
>
> Does the pc even turn on.
>
> I had a server box I was working with, that had been hanging for ages, I turned it on to transfer all data to new hardware and it didn't power, I tried again, and it still didn't power.
>
> Later on the shop confirmed the raid boards and more importantly the boards that were the keys to all the data on the drives were on fire.
>
> We had to pay recovery to get the data.
>
> However to be honest there is a good chance your data is still in tact.
>
> Since windows manages drivers if it hangs you see something and it would restart.
>
> I had a display card do this, run the system suddenly it hangs.
>
> I did a restart, windows detected the display had hung the system, the error was intercepted by the driver software and sent to the right places, I was ordered to update the driver in fact was told how or rathr that there was a firmware bug and asked to patch it.
>
> Chances are most stuff like that well who knows.
>
> A sudden hang without any warning suggests that you have one of the following 3 failiers.
>
> 1.  psu or main power pack that can  happen.
>
> Less commen is a bad cord though you would notice internal cords failing or something before that.
>
> The processer failed.
>
> That would actually smell if it did, the main fan needs to jam on a pc and you would hear that happening before it did.
>
> The performance would go nuts same with a pc being full of dust.
>
> I had a pc fail on me for that reason it had been racing with fans up to the max all day long and I had wandered about it I did clear it out but not before some stuff died in it and I had to replace it.
>
> If a small fan failed well yeah I admit if that or your sync failed you wouldn't know about that till you actually noticed dammage.
>
> A video card or other card failed, yeah they actually do fail.
>
> You have bad ram, could happen like that ram does fail.
>
> Your board could fail, this is less likely.
>
> Your firmware has an issue.
>
> This is not a problem if you can get it updated or reflashed and stuff.
>
> Its unlikely you could have a virus or malware or any major software issue unless something is covered up that is.
>
> Software could generated a critical stop so could drivers do of 0x000 which basically means something it did went beyond the capabilities of the processer like an overflow or something dumb, but there are so many checks thats almost nonexistant now.
>
> If you didn't see smoke that doesn't mean the supply didn't just die.
>
> I once had the main system fail, and hang then die, the only thing I heard was a small pop like when I get a fax.
>
> If I was not in the same room as it I wouldn't have noticed.
>
>
>
>
>> On 6/10/2017 7:04 a.m., Gene wrote:
>> Consider what happened.  With no previous report of problems, the system completely hung.  It didn't reboot.  We don't know what, if any errors were on screen.  All this is pure speculation as to causes, corrupted files, the registry, whatever people want to speculate about.  Why would a properly functioning system suddently completely hang and then not reboot?  Until we find out what, if any error messages are on screen and if Windows even tries to boot, this is all speculation. I suspect a hardware problem.  Others suspect other causes.  I consider it premature to advise any course of action without more information.
>>
>> Gene
>> -----
>>
>> From: Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
>> Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2017 11:36 AM
>> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
>> Subject: Re: [nvda] Windows 10 is Very, Very Broken
>>
>>
>> The opposite can also be true, Most software messes with the registry, it
>> can cock it up on install, or on uninstall if it does not remember to
>> reregister any dll files it has changed or altered the classification of in
>> either case. Been there, done that got the T Shirt during xp days.
>> Its normally the dll files associated with the vearious access APIs that get
>> clobbered as the original developer probably never tested if screenreaders
>> wworked before passing the code for distribution. Brian
>>
>> bglists@...
>> Sent via blueyonder.
>> Please address personal email to:-
>> briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
>> in the display name field.
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Mallard" <mallard@...>
>> To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>> Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2017 2:17 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nvda] Windows 10 is Very, Very Broken
>>
>>
>> Hello Noah,
>>
>>
>> I wenth through a very similar ordeal during the summer.
>>
>> Sighted people could use the pc, but I couldn't. My husband tried fixing
>> Windows in all possible ways, with all possible tools. Nothing doing. We
>> couldn't even restore the pc.
>>
>> We were two seconds away from formatting, when all of a sudden he
>> mentioned a couple of programmes that I said I didn't want to be
>> reinstalled. He removed one, and nothing happened. But when he removed
>> the other one (a Bible app I needed for a translation I was doing for
>> our church group), all got back to normal.
>>
>>
>> Make sure you haven't installed any software recently, which might have
>> interfered with NVDA, before you do anything dramatic like reformatting.
>>
>>
>> This is probably not your case, but better be safe than sorry, so I
>> shared it. It might help someone.
>>
>> Ciao,
>>
>> Ollie
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Il 04/10/2017 23:26, Noah Carver via Groups.Io ha scritto:
>>> Hello List,
>>>
>>> So, my Windows 10 is really pitching a fit! This all started when I had to
>>> forse shut down my win10 machine using the power butten, because of a
>>> total system hang. Then, I turned the machine back on. But NVDA did not
>>> come back to life. I tried turning on Narrator, and it wouldn't talk.
>>> So I asked my dad to come and look at my screen. According to him, even
>>> when I pressed keys on the keyboard, the log in box wouldn't appear.
>>> I've tried ctrl alt del, I’ve tried rebooting, nothing works. Any help
>>> would be greatly appreciated. I have a radio show in two days, and I have
>>> no backup machine.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> Noah Carver
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>





Re: Braille, how many use it?

Adriani Botez
 

Well it was still a prototype. Noone can expect a prototype to be perfect. But the fact that they have created a full functional braille display at low cost show that it is possible. And yes, it is not the Ferari of braille displays. But it is the volkswagen which does the same thing in the end. And it is payable.





Von meinem iPhone gesendet

Am 05.10.2017 um 19:30 schrieb Sarah k Alawami <marrie12@gmail.com>:

I've felt the braille on the orbit reader. It feels just like a book, firmer in fact. But the refresh is really really slow. About 2-3 seconds to switch lines etc etc. And typing is a pain. The keyboard is very very loud. I have an interview you will have to skim I believe at patreon.com/tffppodcast you can listen there.

Take care all.

On Oct 5, 2017, at 1:49 AM, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io <bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io> wrote:

I'd imagine that if they said how it worked then everyone else would do it the same way. Not totally convinced on these displays, but the firmer dots did attract me as I am a bit of a scrubber as many who learnt later in life often can be.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Antony Stone" <antony.stone@nvda.open.source.it>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2017 9:32 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Braille, how many use it?


All that says about the difference from traditional displays is that "The dots
do not give when the user presses them. The dots on some braille displays
using the traditional technology yield to pressure. The technology used in the
Orbit Reader 20 does not exhibit this characteristic. Once the dot is raised,
it stays raised no matter how hard the user examines it."

and

"The second difference from full-featured devices is that the unit refreshes
differently from previously existing technology. The refresh rate is slower,
and the user can just hear the slight tap as each pin rises from left to
right."

So, I can make some guesses about how the dots work in this device, but it
would still be nice to know for sure.

Antony.

On Wednesday 04 October 2017 at 22:17:40, Adriani Botez wrote:

Dear Antony,

here you can read all about it:
http://www.aph.org/research/orbit-reader-20-details/


Best
Adriani

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: nvda@nvda.groups.io Im Auftrag von Antony Stone
Gesendet: Dienstag, 3. Oktober 2017 22:55
An: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Betreff: Re: [nvda] Braille, how many use it?

Does anyone here know what is special or unusual about the Orbit
technology, so that it's (at least in theory) possible for them to
manufacture and sell for such a low price compared to traditional
displays?

I know that the vast majority, if not all, of other Braille displays are
based on piezo-electric actuators to raise and lower the pins (which partly
explains the price, and also explains the physical size of the displays,
and why multi- line displays can't reasonably be made), but I'm wondering
whether anyone here knows what different technology the Orbit is based on
so that it can be made so much cheaper?


Antony.
--
Some mistakes are too much fun to make only once.

Please reply to the list;
please *don't* CC me.








Re: Windows 10 is Very, Very Broken

 

OK, so here’s some more in-depth explanation. When does does boot. Boots all the way up until the lock screen. The lock screen appears, showing a lovely photo that Microsoft auto generate. But then I press control to bring up the password entry field, nothing happens. It’s basically locked on the lock screen. That’s my problem. I don’t believe that this is a hardware issue, as windows boot fine. I’m more inclined to believe it has something to do with windows it’s self.

On Oct 5, 2017, at 15:04, Shaun Everiss <sm.everiss@gmail.com> wrote:

Well a system hang could be many things.

The fact that it just did without warning suggests hardware.

But if a small fan failed you wouldn't know.

If a drive failed you may or may not hear it.

Chances are though that all you need do is hit enter to get things back.

One thing that the user should try.

if you use delete or whatever key that goes to the cmos does it do it.

If it does, if you use a live cd with linux or something does it load.

If the latter then I'll accept the windows issue.

Does the pc even turn on.

I had a server box I was working with, that had been hanging for ages, I turned it on to transfer all data to new hardware and it didn't power, I tried again, and it still didn't power.

Later on the shop confirmed the raid boards and more importantly the boards that were the keys to all the data on the drives were on fire.

We had to pay recovery to get the data.

However to be honest there is a good chance your data is still in tact.

Since windows manages drivers if it hangs you see something and it would restart.

I had a display card do this, run the system suddenly it hangs.

I did a restart, windows detected the display had hung the system, the error was intercepted by the driver software and sent to the right places, I was ordered to update the driver in fact was told how or rathr that there was a firmware bug and asked to patch it.

Chances are most stuff like that well who knows.

A sudden hang without any warning suggests that you have one of the following 3 failiers.

1. psu or main power pack that can happen.

Less commen is a bad cord though you would notice internal cords failing or something before that.

The processer failed.

That would actually smell if it did, the main fan needs to jam on a pc and you would hear that happening before it did.

The performance would go nuts same with a pc being full of dust.

I had a pc fail on me for that reason it had been racing with fans up to the max all day long and I had wandered about it I did clear it out but not before some stuff died in it and I had to replace it.

If a small fan failed well yeah I admit if that or your sync failed you wouldn't know about that till you actually noticed dammage.

A video card or other card failed, yeah they actually do fail.

You have bad ram, could happen like that ram does fail.

Your board could fail, this is less likely.

Your firmware has an issue.

This is not a problem if you can get it updated or reflashed and stuff.

Its unlikely you could have a virus or malware or any major software issue unless something is covered up that is.

Software could generated a critical stop so could drivers do of 0x000 which basically means something it did went beyond the capabilities of the processer like an overflow or something dumb, but there are so many checks thats almost nonexistant now.

If you didn't see smoke that doesn't mean the supply didn't just die.

I once had the main system fail, and hang then die, the only thing I heard was a small pop like when I get a fax.

If I was not in the same room as it I wouldn't have noticed.




On 6/10/2017 7:04 a.m., Gene wrote:
Consider what happened. With no previous report of problems, the system completely hung. It didn't reboot. We don't know what, if any errors were on screen. All this is pure speculation as to causes, corrupted files, the registry, whatever people want to speculate about. Why would a properly functioning system suddently completely hang and then not reboot? Until we find out what, if any error messages are on screen and if Windows even tries to boot, this is all speculation. I suspect a hardware problem. Others suspect other causes. I consider it premature to advise any course of action without more information.

Gene
-----

From: Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2017 11:36 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Windows 10 is Very, Very Broken


The opposite can also be true, Most software messes with the registry, it
can cock it up on install, or on uninstall if it does not remember to
reregister any dll files it has changed or altered the classification of in
either case. Been there, done that got the T Shirt during xp days.
Its normally the dll files associated with the vearious access APIs that get
clobbered as the original developer probably never tested if screenreaders
wworked before passing the code for distribution. Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mallard" <mallard@kimabe.eu>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2017 2:17 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Windows 10 is Very, Very Broken


Hello Noah,


I wenth through a very similar ordeal during the summer.

Sighted people could use the pc, but I couldn't. My husband tried fixing
Windows in all possible ways, with all possible tools. Nothing doing. We
couldn't even restore the pc.

We were two seconds away from formatting, when all of a sudden he
mentioned a couple of programmes that I said I didn't want to be
reinstalled. He removed one, and nothing happened. But when he removed
the other one (a Bible app I needed for a translation I was doing for
our church group), all got back to normal.


Make sure you haven't installed any software recently, which might have
interfered with NVDA, before you do anything dramatic like reformatting.


This is probably not your case, but better be safe than sorry, so I
shared it. It might help someone.

Ciao,

Ollie





Il 04/10/2017 23:26, Noah Carver via Groups.Io ha scritto:
Hello List,

So, my Windows 10 is really pitching a fit! This all started when I had to
forse shut down my win10 machine using the power butten, because of a
total system hang. Then, I turned the machine back on. But NVDA did not
come back to life. I tried turning on Narrator, and it wouldn't talk.
So I asked my dad to come and look at my screen. According to him, even
when I pressed keys on the keyboard, the log in box wouldn't appear.
I've tried ctrl alt del, I’ve tried rebooting, nothing works. Any help
would be greatly appreciated. I have a radio show in two days, and I have
no backup machine.

Cheers,

Noah Carver










Re: WebAim Screen Reader User Survey #7: Getting The Word Out About NVDA

Randy Barnett <randy@...>
 

I have been using Jaws since 95 and i have never even heard of windows bridge. If it was so good why is that? theirs only 2 windows screen reading programs today Jaws and NVDA. I don't count obscure programs no one has ever heard of...
Well, Narrator but that is not a full featured program yet.

On 10/5/2017 3:44 PM, Travis Siegel wrote:

The only statement in this thread I have to take exception to is the statement that jaws was providing access before anyone else.  This statement is completely false.

The very first screen reader ever for windows was windowbridge.  Windowbridge had a lot of firsts when it comes to screen reader functionality, including some things that still don't exist in any screen reader available today, such as mouse navigation via locking vertical or horizontal movement so you could find things on the screen easier.

It also was the first screen reader to use the caps lock key as a modifier, (something each and every screen reader has copied since), and it had a lot of other firsts.  Just because a program is the most popular doesn't make it either the best, or the most advanced, or even the one with the most features.  Jaws is popular yes, but a lot of that popularity is due to the fact that state agencies and other government organizations use it and their clients use it, it isn't the mostpopular because it outstrips every other screen reader in the market with it's feature set, capabilities and it's usability.  Folks really should keep that in mind when deiscussing screen readers.  There's a reason there are multiple (and always have been) multiple screen readers.  Everyone knows, there is no such thing as one size fits all when it comes to screen readers, no program can be everything to everyone, and the screen reader market is no exception.  Each screen reader has it's pros and it's cons, and what eacyh user uses should be up to that user, only that usually isn't the case.  When I worked for a rather large computer company as a programmer and a tech support person, I did not get to choose what screen reader I wanted to use, I was told that I was going to use jaws, and that I was going to like it, because that's the only option I had.  As it turns out, the copy of jaws I got was an illegal install that wasn't registered to me, and I had to spend my own money to purchase a program I didn't want, just so I wouldn't be liable if some sort of audit came through.  Of course, said audit never did come through, but the point is, you never know what can/will happen, and if you aren't prepared, you could get in a lot of trouble, even for things you didn't do.  Had I had my choice of screen reader, it would have been window-eyes, but I wasn't asked, and I wasn't even consulted about the question.  Shortly afterwords, my case was closed by the visual services department, and I never got a single piece of help from them, even though it's their job to provide assistance with this very thing. 

This message has strayed way off topic, and even into topics I didn't intend to bring up, but it all goes together, so there it is, make of it what you like.

The point though, is that whatever the screen reader is, it really should be up to the user to choose what they want to use.  If they don't know, then showing them the options and allowing them to choose would be nice, but often times, that isn't what ahppens, and because of that, there is a false impression created that the program of choice (or the device of choice for that matter) is the best/first/what have you, when it could very just as easily be the bottom of the barrel, but nobody knows, because there is no option given.


On 10/4/2017 8:50 AM, erik burggraaf wrote:

Hi Randy,

On October 3, 2017 11:54:34 PM "Randy Barnett" <randy@...> wrote:

Jaws has gone down in price over the years.


I'll give you this.  Looking at the freedom scientific website, I can see that the home edition stands at $900, and the professional stands at $1100.  These prices are about 2 or 3 hundred dollars cheeper than when I last had ocasion to keep track some four years ago.  I guess that's about a 20% nock off.  If it doesn't seem like much, that's because 9 c's is far out of reach of the home user.  IE, government is still the primary target market for this product and I believe all my former arguments to retain validity. 
FS has been fairly competative on hardware pricing I will give them that.  I don't like most of their hardware, but I know many people who do and the price points make it attractive to both those who use it and those who pay.  Of course, people who use fs hardware naturally tend to gravitate to fs software and vice versa.  This is certainly not always the case, but I see it often. 

Even more if you figure in
inflation. It has not gone up at all. Nor is it likely too.

No, I don't buy the inflation bit either, not considering the take home of the top brass at VFO.  The pricing includes all overhead including reasonable inflation, so no.  Plus, we're still debunking the research and development argument.  Each release of jaws does not require the scratch construction of a new speech synthesizer, video display chain driver, and accessibility api among other core functions.  Programmers are talented people who diserve to be paid accordingly, but the scale of the research required to maintain jaws now is nowhere near on the scale it would have been in the late 90's when there were no such things as accessibility standards.

Also, Gene touched on it and others may have too.  They're not just selling jaws.  They're selling training at a premium.  I've seen quotes for scripting ranging from $150 per work hour, to $150 per code line.  I'm working on a human rights employment case right now and just to get an audit of what needs to be fixed in this one company from an accessibility consultant is going to cost $15000.  Just to find out what's wrong.  Now, VFO owns one of the supposed leading consulting firms in this area, which means they can test with only jaws, and tout scripting at a premium.  Also, you notice, they don't tell you how much it costs for remote access anymore?  The ominous, "call for pricing".  Let's not waste any clean-x on VFO's proffit margin shall we.

I am not a


big fan of VFO and criticize it often but they are like any other
specialized software. Have you ever price CAD, Audio design, CNC
mapping  and other similar software? they far exceed the cost of Jaws.

Nop, Gene tried this one too, and I didn't have the time to address it but lets just say... No.  If I buy jaws,  it's money spent playing catch up.  There is no doubt the benefits of hiring blind employees.  It's the law, and I need to comply.  There are lots of perripheral benefits, but no direct cost recovery.  I mearly pay to supplement what I already have.  IE, I have a great employee and an inaccessible workplace and jaws glues the two together.  But I might be able to find another great employee who doesn't need jaws, and unless I'm planning to start a sideline in some area of accessibility work, I'm not seeing  a direct return on my jaws or ansilary services like scripting.

The argument holds less water in the case of retirees who go blind later in life or other home based use cases.  How many regular people have autocad in their house in case they want to doodle?

If I'm an engineer, I buy autocad.  It is crutial to my job.  It accellerates my workflow and directly earnes me money.  If I had a professional recording studio, I'd pay top dollar for protools.  Thousands or 10's of thousands of dollars for a licence is nothing, because knowledge and use of these tools generates direct return on investment in the millians or greater.  Jaws does not offer anything close to that, so there's no comparison to be made at all.

Do I want cheaper Jaws? Of course who wants to pay more for anything!
Dont forget Jaws was providing access long before anyone else and it was
very good access at that. It has taken over 20years for someone to
provide a no cost alternative for the PC.
On 10/3/2017 7:58 PM, Gene wrote:
> It should be pointed out that System Access isn't at all equivalent to
> JAWS or Window-eyes. It cost less because it was much less capable and
> didn't have to work with nearly as many programs.  And it was often
> purchased, not as a standalone product, but with the SAM Network.  I
> don't know if I have the name just right.  But it could be purchased
> either alone or as an integrated product and I wouldn't be surprised
> if a lot or most purchasers purchased the whole package, which may
> have further led to lowering costs.  Agencies wouldn't have purchased
> it in general because their thrust was employment and System Access
> wasn't intended as an employment product.
> It was intended to give Internet Access, access to certain e-mail
> programs and to simple word processing.  It cost about half as much as
> JAWS and Window-eyes and it was perhaps one-third as powerful.
> Around 2000, whoever owned JAWS at that time attempted to address the
> affordability problem by making a product, Connect Outloud.  I believe
> you could buy it and it also came, bundled for free with Openbook. 
> What I heard when it was discontinued after perhaps two or three years
> was that there wasn't enough demand to justify continuing it.
> It provided Internet access, access to Winamp, Outlook Express,
> Wordpad, and it may have provided access to one or two other programs.
> I'm not sure why it wasn't popular at the time, given the number of
> home users who didn't need a powerful screen-reader and the price of
> JAWS and Window-eyes and, as I recall, it was before System Access.
> But those who insist on viewing whoever owns JAWS throughout its
> history as predators, perhaps they should consider this information.
> As far as whether HJAWs developers do enough work to justify the price
> currently, I don't know.
> Gene
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Lino Morales <mailto:linomorales001@...>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 03, 2017 6:08 PM
> *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> *Subject:* Re: [nvda] WebAim Screen Reader User Survey #7: Getting The
> Word Out About NVDA
>
> Great post Eric. I wasn't around in the 70's or didn't know jack horse
> maneur about AT. Viva la NVDA!
>
>
> On 10/2/2017 5:50 PM, erik burggraaf wrote:
>>
>> Lots of for proffit companies made free or low cost screen readers.
>> Serotek for one.  Apple for another.  I'd say both companies were
>> successful to one degree or another.  So, why didn't we see
>> governments lining up to pay for system access?  Well, to a lesser
>> extent some did, but if screen readers cost less, then the funding
>> becomes less and the portfoleos of nondisabled people making big
>> money from accessibility legislation shrink.  We certainly don't want
>> that.  But even at that, system access and the system access network
>> lasted for a very long time, largely on consumer driven support.
>>
>> NVDA didn't succeed because it was not for proffit.  It succeded
>> because of the dedication of the people who started it, and the
>> following those founders were able to inspire. It's sustainable
>> because of the people who work on it. The fact that it is non for
>> proffit gives it certain advantages such as the fact that it can't be
>> subsumed by a for proffit.  Lots of free windows screen readers
>> entered and left the market in the past 10 years.  NVDA is the only
>> one to thrive, much less survive, and it's because of the talendt,
>> and the management.
>>
>> Then again, the fact that NVDA itself is non for proffit hasn't
>> prevented the organization from accepting grants and sponsorships
>> from for proffit companies, and whatever I may think of those
>> companies individually, the output from those grants contributed to
>> the general effectiveness of NVDA, which lead to more adoption which
>> lead to donation revinue, which lead to more improvements until we
>> have the body of work which now is viable enough to stand up to a
>> commercial product in the vast majority of situations.
>>
>> So, we'll have to agree to disagree on this.  I've heard all the
>> arguments for nearly as long as you have.  I'll allow there was a
>> time when they may have made sense to one degree or another. 
>> Certainly the first opticon and kurzweil reading machine costed
>> enormously more in terms of research and development than say the
>> knfb reader mobile app.  In fact, vast commercial uses for scanning,
>> ocr, text to speech, dictation, and other technologies developed for
>> disability communities are prevailant and highly intergrated into
>> modern society.  Accessibility legislation is between 25 and 50 years
>> old.  Commercial standards for developing things to be accessible are
>> well established and supported by legislation.  Time and talent still
>> cost money, but we stand on the shoulders of giants.  It's not what
>> it was in the late 70's and early 80's.  Completely different situation.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Erik
>>
>> On October 2, 2017 5:25:39 PM "Gene" <gsasner@...> wrote:
>>
>>> That is not correct and I've seen that argument many times.  JAWS is
>>> expensive because it is a specialized product with a tiny market. 
>>> If Windows had the number of users JAWS has, it would be 
>>> exorbitantly expensive as well.  It's mass production with enormous
>>> customer bases that makes most manufactured products we use
>>> inexpensive. You can argue about whether institutions could cause
>>> the price of JAWS to be lower by negotiating, I don't know if the
>>> owners of JAWS charge more than they need to to make a product.  But
>>> anyone on this list who purchases or has purchased a sophisticated
>>> computer program that sells to a very small audience will confirm
>>> that such products are very expensive. Institutions may be
>>> bureaucratic but they aren't fools.  Entrepreneurs are creative and
>>> inventive.  If it were possible to have a screen-reader with the
>>> power and sophistication of JAWS for significantly less, someone
>>> would have entered the market at a cheaper price.  They've had more
>>> than two decades to do so in the case of Windows screen-readers. 
>>> Where are they, or even one?
>>> The only way a powerful screen-reader has been developed that is
>>> within the reach of a lot of blind people is to completely work
>>> outside of the for profit model.  NVDA is free because it is not a
>>> for profit product and relies on people working for about minimum
>>> wage, grants, and volunteers to develop and create add ons.  Which
>>> proves my point.  Someone else did fill the need for a screen-reader
>>> for people who can't afford a for profit screen--reader but it was
>>> outside of the for profit model.  Entrepreneurs are creative and
>>> motivated enough that, as I said, if a for profit screen-reader
>>> could be developed  for a significantly cheaper price, it would have
>>> been long ago.
>>> Gene
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> *From:* erik burggraaf <mailto:erik@...>
>>> *Sent:* Monday, October 02, 2017 4:03 PM
>>> *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>>> *Subject:* Re: [nvda] WebAim Screen Reader User Survey #7: Getting
>>> The Word Out About NVDA
>>>
>>> Accessibility laws change the game.  The market for jaws is
>>> different from the market of most other products. The primary target
>>> market doesn't actually use the product.  The reason commercial
>>> screen readers are sustainable is that governments in developed
>>> countrys have legislated that the government must accept the
>>> financial cost of communication aids for people with print
>>> disabilities as a means of leveling the playing field.  That is why
>>> the cost of the tecchnologies has always been out of reach for most
>>> blind consumers, and very little to do with the development cost and
>>> comparitive small size of the market as most commercial access
>>> technologists claim.
>>>
>>> So, there's no evidence to suggest that vfo or any company is
>>> planning to jack up prices even higher than they already are, but
>>> there are legislative hooks that might allow them to if they wanted.
>>>
>>> I really think though that they are battoning down and preparing to
>>> ride out the end times with what they have.  The consolidation has
>>> pretty much taken place.  A few straglers haven't bought in or bowed
>>> out, but they have unique markets of their own.
>>>
>>> The government funding that constitutes the primary support for
>>> products like jaws is on the severe decline as the use cases for the
>>> products over cheeper less specialized alternatives growes less and
>>> less by the day.  If the size of the market dictated the price as
>>> they always claimed, then considering the dwindling share of the
>>> market controlled by commercial AT, it makes sense that the price
>>> would go up, especially in the case of VFO's new exclusivity
>>> agreements in geographic regions that were either not controlled or
>>> controlled by companies that are no more.  The odd thing is, with
>>> NVDA distributed free as a noncommercial product, I doubt it falls
>>> under the commercial exclusivity agreements anyhow.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Erik
>>>
>>> On October 2, 2017 4:24:22 PM "Gene" <gsasner@...> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Why would the owners of JAWS commit suicide or strongly encourage
>>>> purchasers not to use their product by doing something ridiculous,
>>>> as you suggest? They won't.  I don't know if they will try
>>>> different prices as time goes on to get the most profit from the
>>>> most or optimum number of sales, but that is different from
>>>> behaving irrationally.  Is this part of the JAWS is greedy and can
>>>> charge anything it wants argument?  It doesn't matter in the
>>>> context of this argument, that I've heard for two decades with no
>>>> meaningful proof given, whether JAWS is greedy or not.  What
>>>> matters is that JAWS doesn't exist in a vacuum.  It may charge what
>>>> the market will bear but it still operates in a market.  If
>>>> institutions are willing to pay a price, JAWS may decide to charge
>>>> it.  But that doesn't mean that institutions are irrational. They
>>>> aren't going to accept a thousand percent price rise of a product
>>>> just because JAWS owners decide to try to charge it.
>>>> Gene
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> *From:* Sky Mundell <mailto:skyt@...>
>>>> *Sent:* Monday, October 02, 2017 3:00 PM
>>>> *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>>>> *Subject:* Re: [nvda] WebAim Screen Reader User Survey #7: Getting
>>>> The Word Out About NVDA
>>>>
>>>> I totally agree with you Erick. The education institutions that
>>>> deliver equipment to students in Vancouver and around BC and here
>>>> in Victoria haven’t really embraced NVDA but I can see them
>>>> embracing NVDA sooner rather than later. Remember, FS always saw
>>>> its main competition, Window-Eyes as a threat. Since the main
>>>> competition is now gone, , eventually VFO could raise the price of
>>>> JAWS a lot higher, say, to $10000 or so, and that would force
>>>> educational institutions to go with NVDA.
>>>>
>>>> *From:*nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] *On Behalf
>>>> Of *erik burggraaf
>>>> *Sent:* Monday, October 02, 2017 10:12 AM
>>>> *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io
>>>> *Subject:* Re: [nvda] WebAim Screen Reader User Survey #7: Getting
>>>> The Word Out About NVDA
>>>>
>>>> The sample size is very small in these surveys,  but they
>>>> definitely show the paradigm shift and I won't be surprised at all
>>>> to see mobile, mac voiceover, and nvda useage up, and jaws useage
>>>> down.  Window-eyes use should fall right off the charts since the
>>>> product is discontinued.  This will help slow the skid of jaws, but
>>>> I think at least as many window-eyes switchers made it to NVDA as
>>>> to jaws, despite the fact that jaws 18 was a free upgrade for Many
>>>> window-eyes users.
>>>>
>>>> Since the new paradigm puts the blind more or less on an equal
>>>> playing field, and social, legal and economic trends all support
>>>> moving in that direction it shouldn't be too surprising that blind
>>>> users want it more and more.  I have thought for years that 2021 is
>>>> about the final stopping point for old paradigm designs,
>>>> particularly the personal computer, but I can see a lot of
>>>> tradition going by the board by then.  This is all good for us, and
>>>> it's nice to have something concreet to demonstrate the trend we
>>>> can all see happening around us.
>>>>
>>>> Have fun,
>>>>
>>>> Erik
>>>>
>>>> On October 2, 2017 12:57:37 AM "Sarah k Alawami"
>>>> <marrie12@... <mailto:marrie12@...>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>     Wow, interesting. I'm not surprised. I wonder what we'll see
>>>>     this year now that a lot of us are switching to nvda and or
>>>>     android and or voiceover.
>>>>
>>>>     Take care
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>     On Oct 1, 2017, at 9:34 PM, Gene New Zealand
>>>>     <hurrikennyandopo@...
>>>>     <mailto:hurrikennyandopo@...>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>     hi Bhavya
>>>>
>>>>     I have been following the surveys after they  survey  has finished.
>>>>
>>>>     I have also been noticing that the number of jaws users have
>>>>     been dropping along with a few of the commercial screen users
>>>>     and magnifiers etc.
>>>>
>>>>     Also the use of mobile units starting to rise as in the use of
>>>>     android and apple devices that can go portable.
>>>>
>>>>     For me mostly home use is nvda 100 percent of the time and if
>>>>     mobile a android device.
>>>>
>>>>     Gene nz
>>>>
>>>>     On 10/1/2017 2:20 AM, Bhavya shah wrote:
>>>>
>>>>         Dear all,
>>>>
>>>>         Since almost a decade, WebAim, a non-profit web accessibility
>>>>
>>>>         consultancy organisation, has been conducting an annual
>>>>         (sometimes
>>>>
>>>>         biennial) survey, which, as its name implies, attempts to
>>>>         gather
>>>>
>>>>         statistics about the usage share of different screen readers,
>>>>
>>>>         technology (particularly Internet) accessibility trends,
>>>>         etc. so as to
>>>>
>>>>         aid analysts, researchers, accessibility consultants, sighted
>>>>
>>>>         developers, and mainstream companies to get a quantified
>>>>         picture of
>>>>
>>>>         the state of the AT industry.
>>>>
>>>>         While this survey features participation from varied
>>>>         geographies,
>>>>
>>>>         NVDA’s user base, at least in my personal view, has always been
>>>>
>>>>         understated. While 8% respondents of the first December
>>>>         2008 WebAim
>>>>
>>>>         survey reported to be NVDA users, this figure has only
>>>>         increased to
>>>>
>>>>         14% of respondents in its 2015 counterpart claiming to use
>>>>         NVDA as
>>>>
>>>>         their primary screen reader and 41% using it commonly, a
>>>>         usage share
>>>>
>>>>         substantially lower than NVDA’s commercial and more
>>>>         expensive screen
>>>>
>>>>         reading alternatives.
>>>>
>>>>         I think it would be a great way of playing our tiny part in
>>>>         getting
>>>>
>>>>         the word out about NVDA’s viability and competency  if all NVDA
>>>>
>>>>         community members, users, testers and other related parties,
>>>>
>>>>         particularly from second and third world developing regions
>>>>         which
>>>>
>>>>         often remain silent for such surveys but where free and
>>>>         open source
>>>>
>>>>         NVDA makes a prominent impact, take this survey and
>>>>         contribute to
>>>>
>>>>         letting the world know about the size and standing of the
>>>>         NVDA user
>>>>
>>>>         base.
>>>>
>>>>         The URL of said survey is
>>>>         https://webaim.org/projects/screenreadersurvey7/
>>>>
>>>>         .
>>>>
>>>>         It took me about ten minutes to fill this survey and the
>>>>         form was
>>>>
>>>>         extremely accessible. Not only from an NVDA angle, but
>>>>         filling such
>>>>
>>>>         surveys always brings out useful and reflective data,
>>>>         which, in turn,
>>>>
>>>>         betters AT as a whole. Therefore, I urge everyone to take
>>>>         some time
>>>>
>>>>         out for this survey so that we can make the data truly
>>>>         reflective of
>>>>
>>>>         the actualities.
>>>>
>>>>         Thanks.
>>>>
>>>>         P.S. I am in no way affiliated to WebAim nor is my
>>>>         intention to merely
>>>>
>>>>         promote this survey.
>>>>
>>>>     --
>>>>     Image NVDA certified expert
>>>>
>>>>     Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness
>>>>     related material at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net
>>>>     <http://www.accessibilitycentral.net/> Regardless of where you
>>>>     are in New Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you
>>>>     can use a copy of the NVDA screen reader on one of their
>>>>     computers. To find out which locations (or location) is near to
>>>>     you please visit
>>>>     http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries
>>>>     (Aotearoa People's Network Kaharoa). To find an NVDA certified
>>>>     expert near you, please visit the following link
>>>>     https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The certification page
>>>>     contains the official list of NVDA certified individuals from
>>>>     around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA
>>>>     expert exam.
>>>>
>
>

--
Sincereley: Randy Barnett
Owner of Soundtique.
707-502-5575
1897 SE Dr.
Grants Pass, Or. 97526



Virus-free. www.avast.com



Server / Client NVDA setup

adriani.botez@...
 

Dear all,

I would like to start a discussion on the following:
I worked out some problems and I hope we cann find solutions which have already been proved or which could be realized with respect to optimized working setup of NVDA in different server / client environments. I am a new comer to this topic so I hope I can get here some helful suggestions.

1. I have one server and one client and I want to conduct an action on the client from the server machine (NVDA is bein installed only on server)
2. One server, one client; I want to conduct an action on the server machine from the client (NVDA either only on server or only on client)
3. Assume the same environment but NVDA is bein installed on both server and client
4. One server, one client; connect to the server remotely from the client and conduct an action on the client with NVDA being installed either only on client or only on server as if I did it directly from the server machine
5. Connect to the server remotely (without any clients) when NVDA is being installed only on my own computer.
6. Best practice when having more than one server and more than one client.


Thanks in advance for your ideas / suggestions.

Best wishes
Adriani


Re: WebAim Screen Reader User Survey #7: Getting The Word Out About NVDA

Travis Siegel <tsiegel@...>
 

The only statement in this thread I have to take exception to is the statement that jaws was providing access before anyone else.  This statement is completely false.

The very first screen reader ever for windows was windowbridge.  Windowbridge had a lot of firsts when it comes to screen reader functionality, including some things that still don't exist in any screen reader available today, such as mouse navigation via locking vertical or horizontal movement so you could find things on the screen easier.

It also was the first screen reader to use the caps lock key as a modifier, (something each and every screen reader has copied since), and it had a lot of other firsts.  Just because a program is the most popular doesn't make it either the best, or the most advanced, or even the one with the most features.  Jaws is popular yes, but a lot of that popularity is due to the fact that state agencies and other government organizations use it and their clients use it, it isn't the mostpopular because it outstrips every other screen reader in the market with it's feature set, capabilities and it's usability.  Folks really should keep that in mind when deiscussing screen readers.  There's a reason there are multiple (and always have been) multiple screen readers.  Everyone knows, there is no such thing as one size fits all when it comes to screen readers, no program can be everything to everyone, and the screen reader market is no exception.  Each screen reader has it's pros and it's cons, and what eacyh user uses should be up to that user, only that usually isn't the case.  When I worked for a rather large computer company as a programmer and a tech support person, I did not get to choose what screen reader I wanted to use, I was told that I was going to use jaws, and that I was going to like it, because that's the only option I had.  As it turns out, the copy of jaws I got was an illegal install that wasn't registered to me, and I had to spend my own money to purchase a program I didn't want, just so I wouldn't be liable if some sort of audit came through.  Of course, said audit never did come through, but the point is, you never know what can/will happen, and if you aren't prepared, you could get in a lot of trouble, even for things you didn't do.  Had I had my choice of screen reader, it would have been window-eyes, but I wasn't asked, and I wasn't even consulted about the question.  Shortly afterwords, my case was closed by the visual services department, and I never got a single piece of help from them, even though it's their job to provide assistance with this very thing. 

This message has strayed way off topic, and even into topics I didn't intend to bring up, but it all goes together, so there it is, make of it what you like.

The point though, is that whatever the screen reader is, it really should be up to the user to choose what they want to use.  If they don't know, then showing them the options and allowing them to choose would be nice, but often times, that isn't what ahppens, and because of that, there is a false impression created that the program of choice (or the device of choice for that matter) is the best/first/what have you, when it could very just as easily be the bottom of the barrel, but nobody knows, because there is no option given.


On 10/4/2017 8:50 AM, erik burggraaf wrote:

Hi Randy,

On October 3, 2017 11:54:34 PM "Randy Barnett" <randy@...> wrote:

Jaws has gone down in price over the years.


I'll give you this.  Looking at the freedom scientific website, I can see that the home edition stands at $900, and the professional stands at $1100.  These prices are about 2 or 3 hundred dollars cheeper than when I last had ocasion to keep track some four years ago.  I guess that's about a 20% nock off.  If it doesn't seem like much, that's because 9 c's is far out of reach of the home user.  IE, government is still the primary target market for this product and I believe all my former arguments to retain validity. 
FS has been fairly competative on hardware pricing I will give them that.  I don't like most of their hardware, but I know many people who do and the price points make it attractive to both those who use it and those who pay.  Of course, people who use fs hardware naturally tend to gravitate to fs software and vice versa.  This is certainly not always the case, but I see it often. 

Even more if you figure in
inflation. It has not gone up at all. Nor is it likely too.

No, I don't buy the inflation bit either, not considering the take home of the top brass at VFO.  The pricing includes all overhead including reasonable inflation, so no.  Plus, we're still debunking the research and development argument.  Each release of jaws does not require the scratch construction of a new speech synthesizer, video display chain driver, and accessibility api among other core functions.  Programmers are talented people who diserve to be paid accordingly, but the scale of the research required to maintain jaws now is nowhere near on the scale it would have been in the late 90's when there were no such things as accessibility standards.

Also, Gene touched on it and others may have too.  They're not just selling jaws.  They're selling training at a premium.  I've seen quotes for scripting ranging from $150 per work hour, to $150 per code line.  I'm working on a human rights employment case right now and just to get an audit of what needs to be fixed in this one company from an accessibility consultant is going to cost $15000.  Just to find out what's wrong.  Now, VFO owns one of the supposed leading consulting firms in this area, which means they can test with only jaws, and tout scripting at a premium.  Also, you notice, they don't tell you how much it costs for remote access anymore?  The ominous, "call for pricing".  Let's not waste any clean-x on VFO's proffit margin shall we.

I am not a


big fan of VFO and criticize it often but they are like any other
specialized software. Have you ever price CAD, Audio design, CNC
mapping  and other similar software? they far exceed the cost of Jaws.

Nop, Gene tried this one too, and I didn't have the time to address it but lets just say... No.  If I buy jaws,  it's money spent playing catch up.  There is no doubt the benefits of hiring blind employees.  It's the law, and I need to comply.  There are lots of perripheral benefits, but no direct cost recovery.  I mearly pay to supplement what I already have.  IE, I have a great employee and an inaccessible workplace and jaws glues the two together.  But I might be able to find another great employee who doesn't need jaws, and unless I'm planning to start a sideline in some area of accessibility work, I'm not seeing  a direct return on my jaws or ansilary services like scripting.

The argument holds less water in the case of retirees who go blind later in life or other home based use cases.  How many regular people have autocad in their house in case they want to doodle?

If I'm an engineer, I buy autocad.  It is crutial to my job.  It accellerates my workflow and directly earnes me money.  If I had a professional recording studio, I'd pay top dollar for protools.  Thousands or 10's of thousands of dollars for a licence is nothing, because knowledge and use of these tools generates direct return on investment in the millians or greater.  Jaws does not offer anything close to that, so there's no comparison to be made at all.

Do I want cheaper Jaws? Of course who wants to pay more for anything!
Dont forget Jaws was providing access long before anyone else and it was
very good access at that. It has taken over 20years for someone to
provide a no cost alternative for the PC.
On 10/3/2017 7:58 PM, Gene wrote:
> It should be pointed out that System Access isn't at all equivalent to
> JAWS or Window-eyes. It cost less because it was much less capable and
> didn't have to work with nearly as many programs.  And it was often
> purchased, not as a standalone product, but with the SAM Network.  I
> don't know if I have the name just right.  But it could be purchased
> either alone or as an integrated product and I wouldn't be surprised
> if a lot or most purchasers purchased the whole package, which may
> have further led to lowering costs.  Agencies wouldn't have purchased
> it in general because their thrust was employment and System Access
> wasn't intended as an employment product.
> It was intended to give Internet Access, access to certain e-mail
> programs and to simple word processing.  It cost about half as much as
> JAWS and Window-eyes and it was perhaps one-third as powerful.
> Around 2000, whoever owned JAWS at that time attempted to address the
> affordability problem by making a product, Connect Outloud.  I believe
> you could buy it and it also came, bundled for free with Openbook. 
> What I heard when it was discontinued after perhaps two or three years
> was that there wasn't enough demand to justify continuing it.
> It provided Internet access, access to Winamp, Outlook Express,
> Wordpad, and it may have provided access to one or two other programs.
> I'm not sure why it wasn't popular at the time, given the number of
> home users who didn't need a powerful screen-reader and the price of
> JAWS and Window-eyes and, as I recall, it was before System Access.
> But those who insist on viewing whoever owns JAWS throughout its
> history as predators, perhaps they should consider this information.
> As far as whether HJAWs developers do enough work to justify the price
> currently, I don't know.
> Gene
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Lino Morales <mailto:linomorales001@...>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 03, 2017 6:08 PM
> *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> *Subject:* Re: [nvda] WebAim Screen Reader User Survey #7: Getting The
> Word Out About NVDA
>
> Great post Eric. I wasn't around in the 70's or didn't know jack horse
> maneur about AT. Viva la NVDA!
>
>
> On 10/2/2017 5:50 PM, erik burggraaf wrote:
>>
>> Lots of for proffit companies made free or low cost screen readers.
>> Serotek for one.  Apple for another.  I'd say both companies were
>> successful to one degree or another.  So, why didn't we see
>> governments lining up to pay for system access?  Well, to a lesser
>> extent some did, but if screen readers cost less, then the funding
>> becomes less and the portfoleos of nondisabled people making big
>> money from accessibility legislation shrink.  We certainly don't want
>> that.  But even at that, system access and the system access network
>> lasted for a very long time, largely on consumer driven support.
>>
>> NVDA didn't succeed because it was not for proffit.  It succeded
>> because of the dedication of the people who started it, and the
>> following those founders were able to inspire. It's sustainable
>> because of the people who work on it. The fact that it is non for
>> proffit gives it certain advantages such as the fact that it can't be
>> subsumed by a for proffit.  Lots of free windows screen readers
>> entered and left the market in the past 10 years.  NVDA is the only
>> one to thrive, much less survive, and it's because of the talendt,
>> and the management.
>>
>> Then again, the fact that NVDA itself is non for proffit hasn't
>> prevented the organization from accepting grants and sponsorships
>> from for proffit companies, and whatever I may think of those
>> companies individually, the output from those grants contributed to
>> the general effectiveness of NVDA, which lead to more adoption which
>> lead to donation revinue, which lead to more improvements until we
>> have the body of work which now is viable enough to stand up to a
>> commercial product in the vast majority of situations.
>>
>> So, we'll have to agree to disagree on this.  I've heard all the
>> arguments for nearly as long as you have.  I'll allow there was a
>> time when they may have made sense to one degree or another. 
>> Certainly the first opticon and kurzweil reading machine costed
>> enormously more in terms of research and development than say the
>> knfb reader mobile app.  In fact, vast commercial uses for scanning,
>> ocr, text to speech, dictation, and other technologies developed for
>> disability communities are prevailant and highly intergrated into
>> modern society.  Accessibility legislation is between 25 and 50 years
>> old.  Commercial standards for developing things to be accessible are
>> well established and supported by legislation.  Time and talent still
>> cost money, but we stand on the shoulders of giants.  It's not what
>> it was in the late 70's and early 80's.  Completely different situation.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Erik
>>
>> On October 2, 2017 5:25:39 PM "Gene" <gsasner@...> wrote:
>>
>>> That is not correct and I've seen that argument many times.  JAWS is
>>> expensive because it is a specialized product with a tiny market. 
>>> If Windows had the number of users JAWS has, it would be 
>>> exorbitantly expensive as well.  It's mass production with enormous
>>> customer bases that makes most manufactured products we use
>>> inexpensive. You can argue about whether institutions could cause
>>> the price of JAWS to be lower by negotiating, I don't know if the
>>> owners of JAWS charge more than they need to to make a product.  But
>>> anyone on this list who purchases or has purchased a sophisticated
>>> computer program that sells to a very small audience will confirm
>>> that such products are very expensive. Institutions may be
>>> bureaucratic but they aren't fools.  Entrepreneurs are creative and
>>> inventive.  If it were possible to have a screen-reader with the
>>> power and sophistication of JAWS for significantly less, someone
>>> would have entered the market at a cheaper price.  They've had more
>>> than two decades to do so in the case of Windows screen-readers. 
>>> Where are they, or even one?
>>> The only way a powerful screen-reader has been developed that is
>>> within the reach of a lot of blind people is to completely work
>>> outside of the for profit model.  NVDA is free because it is not a
>>> for profit product and relies on people working for about minimum
>>> wage, grants, and volunteers to develop and create add ons.  Which
>>> proves my point.  Someone else did fill the need for a screen-reader
>>> for people who can't afford a for profit screen--reader but it was
>>> outside of the for profit model.  Entrepreneurs are creative and
>>> motivated enough that, as I said, if a for profit screen-reader
>>> could be developed  for a significantly cheaper price, it would have
>>> been long ago.
>>> Gene
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> *From:* erik burggraaf <mailto:erik@...>
>>> *Sent:* Monday, October 02, 2017 4:03 PM
>>> *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>>> *Subject:* Re: [nvda] WebAim Screen Reader User Survey #7: Getting
>>> The Word Out About NVDA
>>>
>>> Accessibility laws change the game.  The market for jaws is
>>> different from the market of most other products. The primary target
>>> market doesn't actually use the product.  The reason commercial
>>> screen readers are sustainable is that governments in developed
>>> countrys have legislated that the government must accept the
>>> financial cost of communication aids for people with print
>>> disabilities as a means of leveling the playing field.  That is why
>>> the cost of the tecchnologies has always been out of reach for most
>>> blind consumers, and very little to do with the development cost and
>>> comparitive small size of the market as most commercial access
>>> technologists claim.
>>>
>>> So, there's no evidence to suggest that vfo or any company is
>>> planning to jack up prices even higher than they already are, but
>>> there are legislative hooks that might allow them to if they wanted.
>>>
>>> I really think though that they are battoning down and preparing to
>>> ride out the end times with what they have.  The consolidation has
>>> pretty much taken place.  A few straglers haven't bought in or bowed
>>> out, but they have unique markets of their own.
>>>
>>> The government funding that constitutes the primary support for
>>> products like jaws is on the severe decline as the use cases for the
>>> products over cheeper less specialized alternatives growes less and
>>> less by the day.  If the size of the market dictated the price as
>>> they always claimed, then considering the dwindling share of the
>>> market controlled by commercial AT, it makes sense that the price
>>> would go up, especially in the case of VFO's new exclusivity
>>> agreements in geographic regions that were either not controlled or
>>> controlled by companies that are no more.  The odd thing is, with
>>> NVDA distributed free as a noncommercial product, I doubt it falls
>>> under the commercial exclusivity agreements anyhow.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Erik
>>>
>>> On October 2, 2017 4:24:22 PM "Gene" <gsasner@...> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Why would the owners of JAWS commit suicide or strongly encourage
>>>> purchasers not to use their product by doing something ridiculous,
>>>> as you suggest? They won't.  I don't know if they will try
>>>> different prices as time goes on to get the most profit from the
>>>> most or optimum number of sales, but that is different from
>>>> behaving irrationally.  Is this part of the JAWS is greedy and can
>>>> charge anything it wants argument?  It doesn't matter in the
>>>> context of this argument, that I've heard for two decades with no
>>>> meaningful proof given, whether JAWS is greedy or not.  What
>>>> matters is that JAWS doesn't exist in a vacuum.  It may charge what
>>>> the market will bear but it still operates in a market.  If
>>>> institutions are willing to pay a price, JAWS may decide to charge
>>>> it.  But that doesn't mean that institutions are irrational. They
>>>> aren't going to accept a thousand percent price rise of a product
>>>> just because JAWS owners decide to try to charge it.
>>>> Gene
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> *From:* Sky Mundell <mailto:skyt@...>
>>>> *Sent:* Monday, October 02, 2017 3:00 PM
>>>> *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>>>> *Subject:* Re: [nvda] WebAim Screen Reader User Survey #7: Getting
>>>> The Word Out About NVDA
>>>>
>>>> I totally agree with you Erick. The education institutions that
>>>> deliver equipment to students in Vancouver and around BC and here
>>>> in Victoria haven’t really embraced NVDA but I can see them
>>>> embracing NVDA sooner rather than later. Remember, FS always saw
>>>> its main competition, Window-Eyes as a threat. Since the main
>>>> competition is now gone, , eventually VFO could raise the price of
>>>> JAWS a lot higher, say, to $10000 or so, and that would force
>>>> educational institutions to go with NVDA.
>>>>
>>>> *From:*nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] *On Behalf
>>>> Of *erik burggraaf
>>>> *Sent:* Monday, October 02, 2017 10:12 AM
>>>> *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io
>>>> *Subject:* Re: [nvda] WebAim Screen Reader User Survey #7: Getting
>>>> The Word Out About NVDA
>>>>
>>>> The sample size is very small in these surveys,  but they
>>>> definitely show the paradigm shift and I won't be surprised at all
>>>> to see mobile, mac voiceover, and nvda useage up, and jaws useage
>>>> down.  Window-eyes use should fall right off the charts since the
>>>> product is discontinued.  This will help slow the skid of jaws, but
>>>> I think at least as many window-eyes switchers made it to NVDA as
>>>> to jaws, despite the fact that jaws 18 was a free upgrade for Many
>>>> window-eyes users.
>>>>
>>>> Since the new paradigm puts the blind more or less on an equal
>>>> playing field, and social, legal and economic trends all support
>>>> moving in that direction it shouldn't be too surprising that blind
>>>> users want it more and more.  I have thought for years that 2021 is
>>>> about the final stopping point for old paradigm designs,
>>>> particularly the personal computer, but I can see a lot of
>>>> tradition going by the board by then.  This is all good for us, and
>>>> it's nice to have something concreet to demonstrate the trend we
>>>> can all see happening around us.
>>>>
>>>> Have fun,
>>>>
>>>> Erik
>>>>
>>>> On October 2, 2017 12:57:37 AM "Sarah k Alawami"
>>>> <marrie12@... <mailto:marrie12@...>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>     Wow, interesting. I'm not surprised. I wonder what we'll see
>>>>     this year now that a lot of us are switching to nvda and or
>>>>     android and or voiceover.
>>>>
>>>>     Take care
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>     On Oct 1, 2017, at 9:34 PM, Gene New Zealand
>>>>     <hurrikennyandopo@...
>>>>     <mailto:hurrikennyandopo@...>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>     hi Bhavya
>>>>
>>>>     I have been following the surveys after they  survey  has finished.
>>>>
>>>>     I have also been noticing that the number of jaws users have
>>>>     been dropping along with a few of the commercial screen users
>>>>     and magnifiers etc.
>>>>
>>>>     Also the use of mobile units starting to rise as in the use of
>>>>     android and apple devices that can go portable.
>>>>
>>>>     For me mostly home use is nvda 100 percent of the time and if
>>>>     mobile a android device.
>>>>
>>>>     Gene nz
>>>>
>>>>     On 10/1/2017 2:20 AM, Bhavya shah wrote:
>>>>
>>>>         Dear all,
>>>>
>>>>         Since almost a decade, WebAim, a non-profit web accessibility
>>>>
>>>>         consultancy organisation, has been conducting an annual
>>>>         (sometimes
>>>>
>>>>         biennial) survey, which, as its name implies, attempts to
>>>>         gather
>>>>
>>>>         statistics about the usage share of different screen readers,
>>>>
>>>>         technology (particularly Internet) accessibility trends,
>>>>         etc. so as to
>>>>
>>>>         aid analysts, researchers, accessibility consultants, sighted
>>>>
>>>>         developers, and mainstream companies to get a quantified
>>>>         picture of
>>>>
>>>>         the state of the AT industry.
>>>>
>>>>         While this survey features participation from varied
>>>>         geographies,
>>>>
>>>>         NVDA’s user base, at least in my personal view, has always been
>>>>
>>>>         understated. While 8% respondents of the first December
>>>>         2008 WebAim
>>>>
>>>>         survey reported to be NVDA users, this figure has only
>>>>         increased to
>>>>
>>>>         14% of respondents in its 2015 counterpart claiming to use
>>>>         NVDA as
>>>>
>>>>         their primary screen reader and 41% using it commonly, a
>>>>         usage share
>>>>
>>>>         substantially lower than NVDA’s commercial and more
>>>>         expensive screen
>>>>
>>>>         reading alternatives.
>>>>
>>>>         I think it would be a great way of playing our tiny part in
>>>>         getting
>>>>
>>>>         the word out about NVDA’s viability and competency  if all NVDA
>>>>
>>>>         community members, users, testers and other related parties,
>>>>
>>>>         particularly from second and third world developing regions
>>>>         which
>>>>
>>>>         often remain silent for such surveys but where free and
>>>>         open source
>>>>
>>>>         NVDA makes a prominent impact, take this survey and
>>>>         contribute to
>>>>
>>>>         letting the world know about the size and standing of the
>>>>         NVDA user
>>>>
>>>>         base.
>>>>
>>>>         The URL of said survey is
>>>>         https://webaim.org/projects/screenreadersurvey7/
>>>>
>>>>         .
>>>>
>>>>         It took me about ten minutes to fill this survey and the
>>>>         form was
>>>>
>>>>         extremely accessible. Not only from an NVDA angle, but
>>>>         filling such
>>>>
>>>>         surveys always brings out useful and reflective data,
>>>>         which, in turn,
>>>>
>>>>         betters AT as a whole. Therefore, I urge everyone to take
>>>>         some time
>>>>
>>>>         out for this survey so that we can make the data truly
>>>>         reflective of
>>>>
>>>>         the actualities.
>>>>
>>>>         Thanks.
>>>>
>>>>         P.S. I am in no way affiliated to WebAim nor is my
>>>>         intention to merely
>>>>
>>>>         promote this survey.
>>>>
>>>>     --
>>>>     Image NVDA certified expert
>>>>
>>>>     Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness
>>>>     related material at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net
>>>>     <http://www.accessibilitycentral.net/> Regardless of where you
>>>>     are in New Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you
>>>>     can use a copy of the NVDA screen reader on one of their
>>>>     computers. To find out which locations (or location) is near to
>>>>     you please visit
>>>>     http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries
>>>>     (Aotearoa People's Network Kaharoa). To find an NVDA certified
>>>>     expert near you, please visit the following link
>>>>     https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The certification page
>>>>     contains the official list of NVDA certified individuals from
>>>>     around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA
>>>>     expert exam.
>>>>
>
>

--
Sincereley: Randy Barnett
Owner of Soundtique.
707-502-5575
1897 SE Dr.
Grants Pass, Or. 97526



Virus-free. www.avast.com


Re: In-Process 5th October

Quentin Christensen
 

Ah there you go, I was just going to say a meme is a popular image, which people put text to, usually a line at the top and the bottom.  Here's a couple of meme's I just looked up.  Often people use the same images, but put their own text to them (there are apps and websites that will set this up for you - I haven't used any to know how accessible they are or recommend any):
- One popular meme image is a little kid pumping his fist, so text will often read something like "Boss said we can leave early?" above the image and "Long weekend!" below it.
- Another one has a still from Eddie Murphy in I'm not sure what movie, but he's tapping the side of his head (to indicate he's been thinking), and above it might say "Can't get fired", and underneath says "If you don't turn up to work".
- One has Austin Powers (the spy who shagged me), with "I see you are eating spaghetti with a white shirt" above and "I too like to live dangerously" below it.

Ok, I better stop looking up memes (for the community!) and do some work now I guess!

Quentin.

On Fri, Oct 6, 2017 at 7:24 AM, Antony Stone <antony.stone@...> wrote:
A meme is the "memory" (or some might say cultural) equivalent of a gene.

In other words, something which people know, and which gets passed on from
person to person.  Compare with a gene, which is part of what people *are*,
and gets passed on from person to person.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meme


Antony.

On Thursday 05 October 2017 at 20:09:59, The Wolf wrote:

> can some one tell me what the heck a meme is?

--
Python is executable pseudocode.
Perl is executable line noise.

                                                   Please reply to the list;
                                                         please *don't* CC me.






--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

Official NVDA Training modules and expert certification now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 


Re: Issues with Windows 10 upgrades

Gene New Zealand <hurrikennyandopo@...>
 

Hi


the monitor should not be causing it i am guessing unless it has a driver for the audio but do not think so and if it did maybe a windows default one.


Gene nz



On 10/6/2017 9:24 AM, Mallard wrote:
Hello Brian,


Thanks for your suggestions.


At the moment, luckily, it only affects attempts to update the machine, but before i discovered the culprit (laparola.net Bible app), it simply interfered with both NVDA and Narator, but not in all programmes. I couldn't use browsers, Thunderbird, and menus at random in some software. I could read documents, and use, for instance, file managers like Total commander.

No Adobe Digital editions, or other stuff like that. Once the programme was removed, NVDA and Narrator were resurrected, and I was able to resume my normal work.


But no updates... The system tells me there are updates; it downloads them, prepares for installation, and then goes bananas, and asks me to retry.


Now that you mention audio and video drivers, it occurs to me that I changed monitor. It was definitely before this occurred. Could it be that?

I must try and put back the one I had before. We changed it, because the other one was playing up. I generally keep it off, but my husband is sighted and, when eh needs to use my machine, he needs the monitor. I must give it a try. I have nothing to lose, so why not?


Thanks again. Ciao,

Ollie





Il 05/10/2017 18:32, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io ha scritto:
Does device manager complain about any hardware issues or misconfigured bits of hardware? I have seen this error associated with codecs and hardware drivers, particularly in video and audio hardware, but I strongly suspect the error is more like.
Help something is stopping me from doing what I'm trying to do and so I'll give up!

Might be worth running something like ccleaner over it but I'm not confident its going to be that simple. What does a look at the updates record look like, do you see a litany of failed updates?
If so then, there is probably some kind of  registry corruption.
Most of the times many see this error is when they have not used K-Lite pack or other codecs and attempt to play certain video files on the machine.
From what you describe though I think its more subtle.
Not having a working windows 10 machine at present I'm not sure what else to suggest. Does this affect the working of the current system or just when you want to update the machine?
Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Mallard" <mallard@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2017 2:23 PM
Subject: [nvda] Issues with Windows 10 upgrades


Hello all,

My machine (a desktop from HP, which was bought refurbished, and has 12GB of ram at the moment) doesn't seem to want to upgrade to Creator.
It has been attempiting to do the updates, but every time it says there's an error, and can't complete the procedure.

It gives me the following error:

Error: 0x8007001f

I searched for the code on teh web, and so did my husband, but we didn't come up with anything viable.

Has anyone, by any chance, experienced somehting like this, and how did you solve it, if you did at all?

Thanks, ciao,
Ollie













--
Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related material at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net Regardless of where you are in New Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you can use a copy of the NVDA screen reader on one of their computers. To find out which locations (or location) is near to you please visit http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries (Aotearoa People's Network Kaharoa). To find an NVDA certified expert near you, please visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified individuals from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA expert exam.


Re: Issues with Windows 10 upgrades

Gene New Zealand <hurrikennyandopo@...>
 

Hi


As long as i entered in the right error code and did not leave any thing else i done a quick search and came up with this page at http://www.errorlive.com/error-code-0x8007001f

Hopefully i copied the whole error code but it if it is this one looks like you need to update your audio driver or try some of the steps there.


Usually at times it is usually to do with a usb device.


Gene nz



On 10/6/2017 9:14 AM, Mallard wrote:
Well, I think we tried all possible troubleshooting tools and fixes available. Every time we were back to square one. A sort of "catch 22" situation. We were advised to restoer, but restore wouldn't work. we were advised to use a cd, but that told us there was an error (always the same error code!).

I'll try with the newer version as soon as it appears, but I'm afraid I'll have to stay on this 1607 thingy, unless I want to format the machine...


Ciao, thanks!

Ollie





Il 05/10/2017 19:16, Randy Barnett ha scritto:
I have and it is a serious pain. Try the windows update troubleshooting tool. Just google it and then install it from MS.
If that dowsnt fix it there are some more advanced workarounds but Sometimes it is easier to just reinstall windows with the latest version.
On 10/5/2017 6:23 AM, Mallard wrote:
Hello all,

My machine (a desktop from HP, which was bought refurbished, and has 12GB of ram at the moment) doesn't seem to want to upgrade to Creator.
It has been attempiting to do the updates, but every time it says there's an error, and can't complete the procedure.

It gives me the following error:

Error: 0x8007001f

I searched for the code on teh web, and so did my husband, but we didn't come up with anything viable.

Has anyone, by any chance, experienced somehting like this, and how did you solve it, if you did at all?

Thanks, ciao,
Ollie









--
Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related material at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net Regardless of where you are in New Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you can use a copy of the NVDA screen reader on one of their computers. To find out which locations (or location) is near to you please visit http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries (Aotearoa People's Network Kaharoa). To find an NVDA certified expert near you, please visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified individuals from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA expert exam.


Re: Braille, how many use it?

Travis Siegel <tsiegel@...>
 

The cost of braille displays is (mostly) what the market will bear.  I know they claim it's the technology used to raise and lower the pins, but I can buy those pizo membrane things for $1.50 each from parallax.com, and I'm sure if a braille display manufacturer bought them in high volume, they would be less than a dollar a piece.  Sure, you need six or eight of them per cell, but that's still not 100 dollars a cell like they claim.  Now, keep in mind, I've never built a braille display, and I don't know what else goes into them, but the pizo electric cells themselves aren't all that expensive anymore.  We won't get decent portable braille production until someone builds a new brailler.  With all the available technology these days, there's absolutely no reason for a brailler to be anywhere near as bulky as they are today.  Even the supposedly redesigned braillers aren't much smaller than the perkins braillers, and that's just silly.  Ideally, someone would make a brailler that can double as a display, but until that happens, we're stuck with what exists.

On 10/3/2017 4:54 PM, Antony Stone wrote:
Does anyone here know what is special or unusual about the Orbit technology,
so that it's (at least in theory) possible for them to manufacture and sell
for such a low price compared to traditional displays?

I know that the vast majority, if not all, of other Braille displays are based
on piezo-electric actuators to raise and lower the pins (which partly explains
the price, and also explains the physical size of the displays, and why multi-
line displays can't reasonably be made), but I'm wondering whether anyone here
knows what different technology the Orbit is based on so that it can be made so
much cheaper?


Antony.

On Tuesday 03 October 2017 at 21:48:30, Brian wrote:

That was what made me make the post. Nobody in the UK can get them, its
been soon for about three years now.
RNIB could not get a straight answer, though some prototypes are in the
hands of some people apparently reliability of these is less than good, but
then they are prototypes and the software is still dumb by comparison to a
big expensive one.
Brian
----- Original Message -----
From: "Adriani Botez" <adriani.botez@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2017 2:43 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Braille, how many use it?

How about orbit reader? It is the cheapest braille display. Did they manage
to start shipping?

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: nvda@nvda.groups.io Im Auftrag von Antony Stone
Gesendet: Dienstag, 3. Oktober 2017 15:28
An: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Betreff: Re: [nvda] Braille, how many use it?

Braille displays are indeed very expensive to buy new, but they remain
manufactured and available because the majority of purchases are by
employers or government education departments who are required to provide
funding for disabled people under many countries' anti-discrimination laws.

That said, I have had good success buying second-hand displays on eBay,
because no employer or education funder will consider supplying a
second-hand device, but they can still be passed on in a good working
condition after someone leaves their job or comes to the end of their
training.

I do wish lower-cost new Braille displays were available, but so long as
the majority of the customers are organisations which can afford them and
don't question the price, they will continue to pay current prices for
them in just the same way as they pay for Jaws licences, instead of
funding the development of NVDA and then getting as many copies as they
like for free afterwards.


Antony.

On Tuesday 03 October 2017 at 15:14:41, Damien Sykes-Lindley wrote:
Hi,
Braille displays are super expensive. So expensive, in fact, that I'm
surprised they're still on the market!
As for me, very naughty me, especially being total, I haven't touched
Braille in ten years. Consequently, I've forgotten most of it! I'm a
speech user all the way.
Cheers.
Damien.
-----Original Message-----
From: Steve Nutt
Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2017 2:04 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Braille, how many use it?

Hi,

I wouldn't be without Braille personally. You can only tell so much
with speech, unless you turn on formatting and all that jazz.

All the best

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: 03 October 2017 12:42
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Braille, how many use it?

Tis is just a question. I see a lot of work going on on the
development front to make these displays and the entering of the code
more intuitive and better.
I just wondered how many folk here can afford to use a Braille display
on their machines? Since the promised Orbit seems to be having issues
getting out of the factory, most of the other choices out there need
a second mortgage to buy them!

Just musing that was all.
Brian
--
"Life is just a lot better if you feel you're having 10 [small] wins a day
rather than a [big] win every 10 years or so."

- Chris Hadfield, former skiing (and ski racing) instructor

Please reply to the
list; please *don't* CC me.


Re: In-Process 5th October

Antony Stone
 

A meme is the "memory" (or some might say cultural) equivalent of a gene.

In other words, something which people know, and which gets passed on from
person to person. Compare with a gene, which is part of what people *are*,
and gets passed on from person to person.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meme


Antony.

On Thursday 05 October 2017 at 20:09:59, The Wolf wrote:

can some one tell me what the heck a meme is?
--
Python is executable pseudocode.
Perl is executable line noise.

Please reply to the list;
please *don't* CC me.


Re: Issues with Windows 10 upgrades

Mallard
 

Hello Brian,


Thanks for your suggestions.


At the moment, luckily, it only affects attempts to update the machine, but before i discovered the culprit (laparola.net Bible app), it simply interfered with both NVDA and Narator, but not in all programmes. I couldn't use browsers, Thunderbird, and menus at random in some software. I could read documents, and use, for instance, file managers like Total commander.

No Adobe Digital editions, or other stuff like that. Once the programme was removed, NVDA and Narrator were resurrected, and I was able to resume my normal work.


But no updates... The system tells me there are updates; it downloads them, prepares for installation, and then goes bananas, and asks me to retry.


Now that you mention audio and video drivers, it occurs to me that I changed monitor. It was definitely before this occurred. Could it be that?

I must try and put back the one I had before. We changed it, because the other one was playing up. I generally keep it off, but my husband is sighted and, when eh needs to use my machine, he needs the monitor. I must give it a try. I have nothing to lose, so why not?


Thanks again. Ciao,

Ollie

Il 05/10/2017 18:32, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io ha scritto:
Does device manager complain about any hardware issues or misconfigured bits of hardware? I have seen this error associated with codecs and hardware drivers, particularly in video and audio hardware, but I strongly suspect the error is more like.
Help something is stopping me from doing what I'm trying to do and so I'll give up!

Might be worth running something like ccleaner over it but I'm not confident its going to be that simple. What does a look at the updates record look like, do you see a litany of failed updates?
If so then, there is probably some kind of  registry corruption.
Most of the times many see this error is when they have not used K-Lite pack or other codecs and attempt to play certain video files on the machine.
From what you describe though I think its more subtle.
Not having a working windows 10 machine at present I'm not sure what else to suggest. Does this affect the working of the current system or just when you want to update the machine?
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Mallard" <mallard@kimabe.eu>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2017 2:23 PM
Subject: [nvda] Issues with Windows 10 upgrades


Hello all,

My machine (a desktop from HP, which was bought refurbished, and has 12GB of ram at the moment) doesn't seem to want to upgrade to Creator.
It has been attempiting to do the updates, but every time it says there's an error, and can't complete the procedure.

It gives me the following error:

Error: 0x8007001f

I searched for the code on teh web, and so did my husband, but we didn't come up with anything viable.

Has anyone, by any chance, experienced somehting like this, and how did you solve it, if you did at all?

Thanks, ciao,
Ollie





Re: Issues with Windows 10 upgrades

Mallard
 

Well, I think we tried all possible troubleshooting tools and fixes available. Every time we were back to square one. A sort of "catch 22" situation. We were advised to restoer, but restore wouldn't work. we were advised to use a cd, but that told us there was an error (always the same error code!).

I'll try with the newer version as soon as it appears, but I'm afraid I'll have to stay on this 1607 thingy, unless I want to format the machine...


Ciao, thanks!

Ollie

Il 05/10/2017 19:16, Randy Barnett ha scritto:
I have and it is a serious pain. Try the windows update troubleshooting tool. Just google it and then install it from MS.
If that dowsnt fix it there are some more advanced workarounds but Sometimes it is easier to just reinstall windows with the latest version.
On 10/5/2017 6:23 AM, Mallard wrote:
Hello all,

My machine (a desktop from HP, which was bought refurbished, and has 12GB of ram at the moment) doesn't seem to want to upgrade to Creator.
It has been attempiting to do the updates, but every time it says there's an error, and can't complete the procedure.

It gives me the following error:

Error: 0x8007001f

I searched for the code on teh web, and so did my husband, but we didn't come up with anything viable.

Has anyone, by any chance, experienced somehting like this, and how did you solve it, if you did at all?

Thanks, ciao,
Ollie



Re: How To Search

Gene New Zealand <hurrikennyandopo@...>
 

hi


use the following


nvda key + ctrl key + the letter F then enter in what you are looking for.


to find the next occurrence of it use the nvda key + f3 key.


gene nz





On 10/6/2017 1:58 AM, Howard Traxler wrote:
Thanks Antony,
Right now, firefox comes up to read the NVDA user guide.  Using the firefox find command, control f, gives me the search dialog, I put in the word ("search" in this case) and tab to the find next button and press the spacebar or enter.  Nothing happens.  Does NVDA have its own find function that I'm missing?

Thanks.
Howard
----- Original Message ----- From: "Antony Stone" <antony.stone@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2017 7:37 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] How To Search


Which application are you trying to search in?

Antony.

On Thursday 05 October 2017 at 14:02:39, Howard Traxler wrote:

Is there a trick way to search for a word or phrase in a page or document?
I thought it might be just control f but it seems not?

Thanks.

Howard

-- 
The Magic Words are Squeamish Ossifrage.

                                                  Please reply to the list;
                                                        please *don't* CC me.








--
Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related material at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net Regardless of where you are in New Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you can use a copy of the NVDA screen reader on one of their computers. To find out which locations (or location) is near to you please visit http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries (Aotearoa People's Network Kaharoa). To find an NVDA certified expert near you, please visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified individuals from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA expert exam.


Re: Sound Indicators

Gene New Zealand <hurrikennyandopo@...>
 

Hi


Use the nvda key + letter U. it will toggle between it be spoken and sounds.


if you want the reporting of back ground bars you need to go into object presentation and just under it is a setting to turn it on where it it says progress bars out put.



gene nz



On 10/6/2017 2:34 AM, Howard Traxler wrote:
Before I updated my NVDA, I got a series of ascending tones while getting mail, downloading, and other operations.  The update took it away.  Can't seem to find a place in the menus where I can get it back.  Any ideas?  Thanks.
Howard

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Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related material at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net Regardless of where you are in New Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you can use a copy of the NVDA screen reader on one of their computers. To find out which locations (or location) is near to you please visit http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries (Aotearoa People's Network Kaharoa). To find an NVDA certified expert near you, please visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified individuals from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA expert exam.


Re: Windows 10 is Very, Very Broken

 

Well a system hang could be many things.

The fact that it just did without warning suggests hardware.

But if a small fan failed you wouldn't know.

If a drive failed you may or may not hear it.

Chances are though that all you need do is hit enter to get things back.

One thing that the user should try.

if you use delete or whatever key that goes to the cmos does it do it.

If it does, if you use a live cd with linux or something does it load.

If the latter then I'll accept the windows issue.

Does the pc even turn on.

I had a server box I was working with, that had been hanging for ages, I turned it on to transfer all data to new hardware and it didn't power, I tried again, and it still didn't power.

Later on the shop confirmed the raid boards and more importantly the boards that were the keys to all the data on the drives were on fire.

We had to pay recovery to get the data.

However to be honest there is a good chance your data is still in tact.

Since windows manages drivers if it hangs you see something and it would restart.

I had a display card do this, run the system suddenly it hangs.

I did a restart, windows detected the display had hung the system, the error was intercepted by the driver software and sent to the right places, I was ordered to update the driver in fact was told how or rathr that there was a firmware bug and asked to patch it.

Chances are most stuff like that well who knows.

A sudden hang without any warning suggests that you have one of the following 3 failiers.

1.  psu or main power pack that can  happen.

Less commen is a bad cord though you would notice internal cords failing or something before that.

The processer failed.

That would actually smell if it did, the main fan needs to jam on a pc and you would hear that happening before it did.

The performance would go nuts same with a pc being full of dust.

I had a pc fail on me for that reason it had been racing with fans up to the max all day long and I had wandered about it I did clear it out but not before some stuff died in it and I had to replace it.

If a small fan failed well yeah I admit if that or your sync failed you wouldn't know about that till you actually noticed dammage.

A video card or other card failed, yeah they actually do fail.

You have bad ram, could happen like that ram does fail.

Your board could fail, this is less likely.

Your firmware has an issue.

This is not a problem if you can get it updated or reflashed and stuff.

Its unlikely you could have a virus or malware or any major software issue unless something is covered up that is.

Software could generated a critical stop so could drivers do of 0x000 which basically means something it did went beyond the capabilities of the processer like an overflow or something dumb, but there are so many checks thats almost nonexistant now.

If you didn't see smoke that doesn't mean the supply didn't just die.

I once had the main system fail, and hang then die, the only thing I heard was a small pop like when I get a fax.

If I was not in the same room as it I wouldn't have noticed.

On 6/10/2017 7:04 a.m., Gene wrote:
Consider what happened. With no previous report of problems, the system completely hung. It didn't reboot. We don't know what, if any errors were on screen. All this is pure speculation as to causes, corrupted files, the registry, whatever people want to speculate about. Why would a properly functioning system suddently completely hang and then not reboot? Until we find out what, if any error messages are on screen and if Windows even tries to boot, this is all speculation. I suspect a hardware problem. Others suspect other causes. I consider it premature to advise any course of action without more information.

Gene
-----

From: Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2017 11:36 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Windows 10 is Very, Very Broken


The opposite can also be true, Most software messes with the registry, it
can cock it up on install, or on uninstall if it does not remember to
reregister any dll files it has changed or altered the classification of in
either case. Been there, done that got the T Shirt during xp days.
Its normally the dll files associated with the vearious access APIs that get
clobbered as the original developer probably never tested if screenreaders
wworked before passing the code for distribution. Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mallard" <mallard@kimabe.eu>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2017 2:17 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Windows 10 is Very, Very Broken


Hello Noah,


I wenth through a very similar ordeal during the summer.

Sighted people could use the pc, but I couldn't. My husband tried fixing
Windows in all possible ways, with all possible tools. Nothing doing. We
couldn't even restore the pc.

We were two seconds away from formatting, when all of a sudden he
mentioned a couple of programmes that I said I didn't want to be
reinstalled. He removed one, and nothing happened. But when he removed
the other one (a Bible app I needed for a translation I was doing for
our church group), all got back to normal.


Make sure you haven't installed any software recently, which might have
interfered with NVDA, before you do anything dramatic like reformatting.


This is probably not your case, but better be safe than sorry, so I
shared it. It might help someone.

Ciao,

Ollie





Il 04/10/2017 23:26, Noah Carver via Groups.Io ha scritto:
Hello List,

So, my Windows 10 is really pitching a fit! This all started when I had to
forse shut down my win10 machine using the power butten, because of a
total system hang. Then, I turned the machine back on. But NVDA did not
come back to life. I tried turning on Narrator, and it wouldn't talk.
So I asked my dad to come and look at my screen. According to him, even
when I pressed keys on the keyboard, the log in box wouldn't appear.
I've tried ctrl alt del, I’ve tried rebooting, nothing works. Any help
would be greatly appreciated. I have a radio show in two days, and I have
no backup machine.

Cheers,

Noah Carver