Date   

Braille, How Many Use It?

Lawrence Stoler
 

Hi,


I agree, Brian.


  While I don't think the technology we're used to using i.e. the
Internet will go down tomorrow, it's important we have access to and
know how to use as many different things as possible including braille.


Blind people should know how to use grade II braille.  Many of us have
taken it for granted for a long time and it would be a shame to see it
disappear just because in the minds of some, not as many read or write
braille as was the case years ago.


Technology is great.  It has helped us in many ways but just because
braille isn't read by as many as was the case a long time ago doesn't
mean it's out of date and therefore shouldn't exist.


Larry


Re: NVDA Country Subgroups

Adriani Botez
 

Hello Vlad and Florian,

I am also Romanian but live in Germany since 11 years. I come from Suceava.


Von meinem iPhone gesendet

Am 03.10.2017 um 21:53 schrieb Vlad Dragomir <vladdragomir1983@gmail.com>:

Hi Florian,

Thank you for the message. I'm both french and romanian, I do have two passports. *smile*

More accurately, I should say I'm european, but I do speak the language if that's what you wanted to know. However, I lost contact with those I used to know in Bucharest, where I was born. Only keep in touch with family nowadays.

Best regards from Lyon,

Vlad.



Re: Braille, how many use it?

Gene
 

If all of our technology goes down, youl'll have a lot more to worry about than reading.  You'll be worried about surviving, where to find food and water and how to avoid being attacked if you do have some.
Gene

----- Original Message -----
From: brian
Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2017 5:09 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Braille, how many use it?

    This argument that we don't need braille is like the argument that
we don't need ham radio or even broadcast radio anymore because of
technology.  Well what if there was a major hak or a disaster that took
out the power grid.  Think about the recient heracanes and radio was
still viable when all other technology was not available.  This could
also be the case for braille.  If all of our high technology goes down
for what ever reason and you don't braille what will you do then/  I
think that every blind person who is able should know grade 2 braille no
exceptions unless you do have a medical condition that prevents you from
being able to read braille.

Brian Sackrider


On 10/3/2017 3:36 PM, Shaun Everiss wrote:
> I agree, braille could be used better, its still a good medium as a
> way for the blind to read like the sighted.
>
> But take it out of school if that now, and the fact is you don't need
> to use it generally.
>
> I'd like to see it on menus or places where you would read it more
> naturally rather than taking out my device and looking different.
>
> We also need to learn how to get devices where you can type quieter.
>
> At some university classes and school I had to type in another room
> because of it being to loud.
>
> And even when I was allowed, the fact is the noise is like a dot
> matrix I know its my right to be able to use it but at convenience of
> others.
>
> I am entitled because I am blind but later on I do wander at what they
> had to put up with.
>
> But you never think about that when you are a kid.
>
>
>
>
> On 4/10/2017 3:06 a.m., Damien Sykes-Lindley wrote:
>> Hi,
>> I don't see anyone saying that we should give up braille for
>> technology. That seemed to happen naturally in my case because I had
>> no need to read it, so I never did. Only recently when trying to play
>> a game I realised just how screwed my braille skills actually are.
>> In fact, I totally agree that braille would be better in some areas
>> of work, programming and large calculations being two such areas. On
>> the other hand, try asking for a disability/assistive technology
>> grant over here and see if you can break the record for the longest
>> fight and largest number of letdowns... I've just about given up hope
>> on both the government and the RNIB. Bleh.
>> Cheers.
>> Damien.
>> -----Original Message----- From: Nevzat Adil
>> Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2017 2:29 PM
>> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
>> Subject: Re: [nvda] Braille, how many use it?
>>
>> Braille is as important to a blind person as print is to someone who
>> can see. I do not see any sighted person saying they should give up
>> print because of technology. I am glad NVDA developers are working on
>> making it braille friendly. The fact that braille displays are too
>> expensive should not discourage learning braille as prices are bound
>> to come down and many get those devices the government or private
>> programs, anyway.
>>
>> On 10/3/17, Robert Mendoza <lowvisiontek@...> wrote:
>>> Lucky of those who has a braille display, cause here it is very
>>> expensive and you need to buy it online or rather to pre-order to the
>>> selected store. So I simply used the ordinary keyboard.
>>>
>>> Robert Mendoza
>>>
>>> On 10/3/2017 5:41 AM, Adriani Botez wrote:
>>>> In Germany they are also bein paid by ministery of labor or by the
>>>> health
>>>> insurance company. And very often is being individually judged if the
>>>> person
>>>> gets the device paid or not. It depends on the time period since last
>>>> payment or on how well tested is the technical features of the device.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
>>>> Von: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] Im Auftrag von
>>>> Mallard
>>>> Gesendet: Dienstag, 3. Oktober 2017 14:35
>>>> An: nvda@nvda.groups.io
>>>> Betreff: Re: [nvda] Braille, how many use it?
>>>>
>>>> I agree. Luckily, the National Health Service here in Italy gives us
>>>> braille
>>>> displays, either totally paid by the National Health Service
>>>> itself, or
>>>> partly - depending on the cost of the device.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I used an Optacon before the advent of braille displays, and still do,
>>>> but
>>>> on paper and ereaders; no longer on a pc screen, due to uncomfortable
>>>> position of my workstation.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I couldn't live without braille! I switched to NVDA only once braille
>>>> support was introduced.
>>>>
>>>> Ciao,
>>>>
>>>> Ollie
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Il 03/10/2017 13:41, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io ha
>>>> scritto:
>>>>> Tis is just a question. I see a lot of work going on on the
>>>>> development front to make these displays and the entering of the code
>>>>> more intuitive and better.
>>>>> I just wondered how many folk here can afford to use a Braille
>>>>> display
>>>>> on their machines? Since the promised Orbit seems to be having issues
>>>>> getting out  of the factory, most of the other choices out there need
>>>>> a second mortgage to buy them!
>>>>>
>>>>> Just musing that was all.
>>>>> Brian
>>>>>
>>>>> bglists@...
>>>>> Sent via blueyonder.
>>>>> Please address personal email to:-
>>>>> briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
>>>>> in the display name field.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>




Re: Braille, how many use it?

brian <sackriderbrian45@...>
 

This argument that we don't need braille is like the argument that we don't need ham radio or even broadcast radio anymore because of technology.  Well what if there was a major hak or a disaster that took out the power grid.  Think about the recient heracanes and radio was still viable when all other technology was not available.  This could also be the case for braille.  If all of our high technology goes down for what ever reason and you don't braille what will you do then/  I think that every blind person who is able should know grade 2 braille no exceptions unless you do have a medical condition that prevents you from being able to read braille.

Brian Sackrider

On 10/3/2017 3:36 PM, Shaun Everiss wrote:
I agree, braille could be used better, its still a good medium as a way for the blind to read like the sighted.

But take it out of school if that now, and the fact is you don't need to use it generally.

I'd like to see it on menus or places where you would read it more naturally rather than taking out my device and looking different.

We also need to learn how to get devices where you can type quieter.

At some university classes and school I had to type in another room because of it being to loud.

And even when I was allowed, the fact is the noise is like a dot matrix I know its my right to be able to use it but at convenience of others.

I am entitled because I am blind but later on I do wander at what they had to put up with.

But you never think about that when you are a kid.




On 4/10/2017 3:06 a.m., Damien Sykes-Lindley wrote:
Hi,
I don't see anyone saying that we should give up braille for technology. That seemed to happen naturally in my case because I had no need to read it, so I never did. Only recently when trying to play a game I realised just how screwed my braille skills actually are.
In fact, I totally agree that braille would be better in some areas of work, programming and large calculations being two such areas. On the other hand, try asking for a disability/assistive technology grant over here and see if you can break the record for the longest fight and largest number of letdowns... I've just about given up hope on both the government and the RNIB. Bleh.
Cheers.
Damien.
-----Original Message----- From: Nevzat Adil
Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2017 2:29 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Braille, how many use it?

Braille is as important to a blind person as print is to someone who
can see. I do not see any sighted person saying they should give up
print because of technology. I am glad NVDA developers are working on
making it braille friendly. The fact that braille displays are too
expensive should not discourage learning braille as prices are bound
to come down and many get those devices the government or private
programs, anyway.

On 10/3/17, Robert Mendoza <lowvisiontek@gmail.com> wrote:
Lucky of those who has a braille display, cause here it is very
expensive and you need to buy it online or rather to pre-order to the
selected store. So I simply used the ordinary keyboard.

Robert Mendoza

On 10/3/2017 5:41 AM, Adriani Botez wrote:
In Germany they are also bein paid by ministery of labor or by the health
insurance company. And very often is being individually judged if the
person
gets the device paid or not. It depends on the time period since last
payment or on how well tested is the technical features of the device.


-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] Im Auftrag von
Mallard
Gesendet: Dienstag, 3. Oktober 2017 14:35
An: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Betreff: Re: [nvda] Braille, how many use it?

I agree. Luckily, the National Health Service here in Italy gives us
braille
displays, either totally paid by the National Health Service itself, or
partly - depending on the cost of the device.


I used an Optacon before the advent of braille displays, and still do,
but
on paper and ereaders; no longer on a pc screen, due to uncomfortable
position of my workstation.


I couldn't live without braille! I switched to NVDA only once braille
support was introduced.

Ciao,

Ollie





Il 03/10/2017 13:41, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io ha scritto:
Tis is just a question. I see a lot of work going on on the
development front to make these displays and the entering of the code
more intuitive and better.
I just wondered how many folk here can afford to use a Braille display
on their machines? Since the promised Orbit seems to be having issues
getting out  of the factory, most of the other choices out there need
a second mortgage to buy them!

Just musing that was all.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.


















Re: windows 10 ocr?

Quentin Christensen
 

Hi there,

The menu item simply lets you choose the language the OCR uses.  To use OCR itself, move the focus to an image with text (say a graphic on a web page, or open a PDF file), and press NVDA+r.  Once recognised, you can use the regular navigation and say all commands to read through the results.

I actually wrote up the latest edition of In-Process yesterday including a walkthrough of using it, but I've been a bit slow to publish it!

Note that if you have the OCR add-on installed, you should disable it before using the built-in OCR.  If you are not using Windows 10, you will still need to use the add-on.

Kind regards

Quentin.

On Wed, Oct 4, 2017 at 4:29 AM, mattias <mjonsson1986@...> wrote:

I see a menu value in NVDA settings menu

Windows 10 ocr

? how to use?

 

Skickades från E-post för Windows 10

 




--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

Official NVDA Training modules and expert certification now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 


Re: NVDA Country Subgroups

 

Hi,

In theory, it could, provided that we agree on a common language (or as some would say, “linguo-franca). But I strongly believe that the free will of the community is also important, hence my argument that each community should have a final say.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Lino Morales
Sent: Tuesday, October 3, 2017 2:36 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA Country Subgroups

 

Well unlike Joseph I'm not opposed to this. It would eliminate the language burier on this list. Be open mind Joseph.

 

On 10/1/2017 9:52 PM, Gene New Zealand wrote:

Hi

 

is this not this type of page for other countries for people to join?

 

the link is https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda-community/wiki/Connect

Gene nz

 

 

On 10/2/2017 8:18 AM, adriani.botez via Groups.Io wrote:

Dear all,

What do you think about the idea of creating subgroups of this NVDA group for each country which has many active users? As of now there are lots of mail lists and platforms worldwide where NVDA users and developers discuss. At a point when there will be an NVDA Add-on store for everyone, does it not make sense to try to bring users and developers worldwide more next to each other? Even though those subgroups would not solve the language problem, they would somehow make people more aware about the international importance of NVDA. I came to this idea because we have a network in germany but not everyone speaks englisch to be able to read anything in the main group. But I am sure that here are also people who speak other languages and would like to talk to NVDA users from those countries.
And in fact, you would have a big platform for discussion instead of hundreeds of mail lists and such.


Best
Adriani

 

--

Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related material at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net Regardless of where you are in New Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you can use a copy of the NVDA screen reader on one of their computers. To find out which locations (or location) is near to you please visit http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries (Aotearoa People's Network Kaharoa). To find an NVDA certified expert near you, please visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified individuals from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA expert exam.

 


Re: Rumola

Randy Barnett <randy@...>
 

There are dozens of companies solving these in the thousands for spammers. the pricing of a few cents per thousand tells you there not catering to consumers...
Witch as you said makes these nothing more than a barrier to people especially  blind people.On 10/3/2017 12:59 PM, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io wrote:

I really cannot work out why web sites still  use these, even sighted people struggle and often the audio version suggests it as a 'challenge' which logging in and signing up should not be. Add to that that often when you are allowed in you find the spammers have penetrated it anyway making the whole thing slightly stupid.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Damien Sykes-Lindley" <damien@dcpendleton.plus.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2017 5:04 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Rumola


Hi,
A lot of CAPTCHA solving software does seem to have disappeared. I used to use one called WebVisum, but that also seems to have disintegrated into nothingness.
The only one now, which I use with varying levels of success, is CAPTCHABeGone. Even then, sometimes I have to submit a CAPTCHA 2 or 3 times (on a good day) to get a result.
Cheers.
Damien.
-----Original Message----- From: Nevzat Adil
Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2017 4:59 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Rumola

Hi everyone,
Do any of you use Rumola, the addon to Firefox that automatically
reads the captia?
I noticed today that mine no longer works.
I went to rumola.com and tried to sign into my account and see if I
can reactivate but that did not work, either.
It has not been updated since 2014 according to their website.
It was a nice little helpful software when encountering captias.
I would appreciate any comments.
Nevzat






--
Sincerely: Randy Barnett
Owner of Soundtique.
707-502-5575
1897 SE Dr.
Grants Pass, Or. 97526


Re: NVDA Country Subgroups

Lino Morales
 

Well unlike Joseph I'm not opposed to this. It would eliminate the language burier on this list. Be open mind Joseph.


On 10/1/2017 9:52 PM, Gene New Zealand wrote:

Hi


is this not this type of page for other countries for people to join?


the link is https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda-community/wiki/Connect

Gene nz



On 10/2/2017 8:18 AM, adriani.botez via Groups.Io wrote:
Dear all,

What do you think about the idea of creating subgroups of this NVDA group for each country which has many active users? As of now there are lots of mail lists and platforms worldwide where NVDA users and developers discuss. At a point when there will be an NVDA Add-on store for everyone, does it not make sense to try to bring users and developers worldwide more next to each other? Even though those subgroups would not solve the language problem, they would somehow make people more aware about the international importance of NVDA. I came to this idea because we have a network in germany but not everyone speaks englisch to be able to read anything in the main group. But I am sure that here are also people who speak other languages and would like to talk to NVDA users from those countries.
And in fact, you would have a big platform for discussion instead of hundreeds of mail lists and such.


Best
Adriani

--
Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related material at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net Regardless of where you are in New Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you can use a copy of the NVDA screen reader on one of their computers. To find out which locations (or location) is near to you please visit http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries (Aotearoa People's Network Kaharoa). To find an NVDA certified expert near you, please visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified individuals from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA expert exam.


Re: Braille, how many use it?

Pascal Lambert
 

Blind children who do not learn Braille, have difficulties in spelling and sentence formation because most of their learning is through hearing. And good luck solving mathematic polynomial expressions and equations through hearing!
Blessings
Pascal

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: Tuesday, October 3, 2017 4:13 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Braille, how many use it?

I think it should be there for children. its stupid not to have it.
No wonder so few can read it.
It is after all apart form w reasonably predictable dot wise in grade 1.
I guess the French never use W.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sarah k Alawami" <marrie12@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2017 5:59 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Braille, how many use it?


There are actually bills here in my state to stop braille from being taught
in the school districts. I'm not in agreement with that as I use braille.
I's like my pen and pencil. It also helps me not exactly take tests as I'm a
slow reader but I can get by at 120 wpm when giving a speech as I don't need
to talk fast anyway.

On Oct 3, 2017, at 9:26 AM, Karim Lakhani <karim.lakhani@shaw.ca> wrote:

Schools in Edmonton stopped teaching cursive writing in grade 3.
So the future generation coming up are going to be so relyant
on technology just like us.




EMAIL:karim.lakhani@shaw.ca
$$$$
SKYPE: goldenace4
$$$$
Your reputation is in the hands of others. That's what a
reputation is. You can't control that. The only thing you
can control is your character.
- Wayne Walter Dyer (1940-)



-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf
Of Nevzat Adil
Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2017 7:30 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Braille, how many use it?

Braille is as important to a blind person as print is to someone
who can see. I do not see any sighted person saying they should
give up print because of technology. I am glad NVDA developers
are working on making it braille friendly. The fact that braille
displays are too expensive should not discourage learning braille
as prices are bound to come down and many get those devices the
government or private programs, anyway.

On 10/3/17, Robert Mendoza <lowvisiontek@gmail.com> wrote:
Lucky of those who has a braille display, cause here it is very
expensive and you need to buy it online or rather to pre-order
to the
selected store. So I simply used the ordinary keyboard.

Robert Mendoza

On 10/3/2017 5:41 AM, Adriani Botez wrote:
In Germany they are also bein paid by ministery of labor or by
the
health insurance company. And very often is being individually
judged
if the person gets the device paid or not. It depends on the
time
period since last payment or on how well tested is the
technical
features of the device.


-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] Im
Auftrag von
Mallard
Gesendet: Dienstag, 3. Oktober 2017 14:35
An: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Betreff: Re: [nvda] Braille, how many use it?

I agree. Luckily, the National Health Service here in Italy
gives us
braille displays, either totally paid by the National Health
Service
itself, or partly - depending on the cost of the device.


I used an Optacon before the advent of braille displays, and
still
do, but on paper and ereaders; no longer on a pc screen, due
to
uncomfortable position of my workstation.


I couldn't live without braille! I switched to NVDA only once
braille
support was introduced.

Ciao,

Ollie





Il 03/10/2017 13:41, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
ha scritto:
Tis is just a question. I see a lot of work going on on the
development front to make these displays and the entering of
the
code more intuitive and better.
I just wondered how many folk here can afford to use a
Braille
display on their machines? Since the promised Orbit seems to
be
having issues getting out of the factory, most of the other
choices
out there need a second mortgage to buy them!

Just musing that was all.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
















Re: Update issues on snapshots again

Sarah k Alawami
 

Hmm. I don't have a windows 7 machine to test on but it worked  today on my windows 10 machine. Downloaded the update today..



On Oct 3, 2017, at 1:30 PM, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io <bglists@...> wrote:

Yes I know, but the fact is the problem started only recently, indeed at the fix for the firefox not accessible after an nvda reboot was sorted. the fix that broke support for xp and vista as part of it called a routine not built into those two operating systems. But part of this was to make fresh copies of files hard to unhook and link them in and then delete the artificially locked old files on next system reboot. this however is failing on my windows 7 machines at the first hurdle ie rename the files or folders as after renaming them to a temp name they still seem to be linked and in the same folder as the newer files. this then makes deletion ion and renaming faille intermittently for no apparent reason at the update. the only way I've found around this, even running the temp copy from the c: drive is to be sure that the  temp or installed version has not been run in a windows session then  do the update from a manually downloaded file from the web site. This will always work.
Sadly the new next snap today has further issues as the golden cursor add on is calling a routine that seems to be missing in the current download, either by design or accident. I did wonder if the removal of the service creation and run code taken out today might be to blame for this. I agree there is no point using and creating a bit of code no longer used by the systems you support, but maybe some add ons do?
I could of cores be totally wrong.
My main issue on nvda development now that Jamie has gone is that a lot of people seem to be  doing work on bits of nvda and it all seems to be unpoliced until the snap is updated and then it kind of is hard to tell who's bit caused the problem. Reminds me of that old joke.  If I get there first Ill make a chalk mark on the oak tree if you do rub it out.
Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Shaun Everiss" <sm.everiss@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2017 8:17 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Update issues on snapshots again


I have had this happen with msse and other antivirus, the issue is that so many things are in the background that you don't know when a bit of software decides to do a function.

I get this often with external hard drives.

On my personal win10 devices I just disable autoplay entirely because I can't get to the visual controls and I don't need it.

On the family and networked stations users use it and I need it up.

With the flash sticks I just roodly pull them.

I may damage a stick but so what.

Ofcause thats fine with the small sticks but bigger ones and my hdds I really don't want to just pull.

In most cases I wait for them to eventually stop being used.

But that can take to half an hour at times sometimes accessing them then exiting the file explorer window will solve it.

For files, usually its stuff that can't be deleted, in most cases I just restart the ystem and then you can do it.

Technically there are utilities which can delete things before windows shell starts which seems to be a big issue.

Before windows starts all files have no links to them and can be easily killed, obviously for security and such a user just can't g et access to this, it needs to be done just after the kernal loads but before the shell does.





On 4/10/2017 12:28 a.m., Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io wrote:
Its getting even more complicated now as the same is happening on the portable installs. It seems to me that files in nvda are being held as un renamable even when a different copy of nvda is running, thus when the temp copy of the installer on next or master attempts to rename the old files before deleting them after replacement it simply cannot do so unless its straight after a system restart.

Is this something peculiar to windows 7, is there anything you can think of that might be doing this or what? As it seems to affect this and the other machine in different locations then it looks to me like something is keeping files as in use when they are not.
I'm at a loss to know wheere to proceed with this as onther software that updates behaves as it always used to and if it were a windows issue it would show up elsewhere one would have thought.


I have now restored working by doing resets and running a third copy to run the instalations of both master and next to make the appropriate versions carefully making sure not to have had that version I'm installing or copying over in that windows session. this unfortunately really means manual download of the installed branch, Master so one can control the session.
Is there any way to tell which files windows treats as in use?
I did notice a change about when this started by Mick of changing file names to stop the old copies from being used in the new version so that Firefox would not become unusable when nvda updates if it happened to be running at that time. It was around this time things started to misbehave.


Before that could it have been handled differently so that the problem was not noticed?
Brian

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----- Original Message ----- From: "Quentin Christensen" <quentin@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2017 10:08 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Update issues on snapshots again


May be too late to get the original log back, but per
https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/wiki/LogFilesAndCrashDumps if you look in
%temp%, you should find any recent logs which still exist and there may be
something in there.


On Tue, Oct 3, 2017 at 7:09 PM, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io <
bglists@...> wrote:

Further to this, the same problems have occurred today updating to the one
with the slight documentation changes, so the problem still exists.
I had to restart windows to get the installer to run. It is, as I say not
allowing things to be deleted. Any ideas on what to try in nvda?
Its obibviously a recent issue.

I could completely reinstall but that would be impractical at the moment
due to work.

Besides if its affecting me then when the new version comes out there is
going to be a lot of problems.
Brian

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----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian's Mail list account via
Groups.Io" <bglists@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2017 8:17 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Update issues on snapshots again


Yes this reboot is fine but its hard to replicate the exact conditions you
had the first time certainly not just by reinstalling old version and
updating again seems not to create the issue. it is obviously something
going on which still leaves some files locked. Could the log somehow tell
us which the files are which are causing it. That might suggest the issue
to be fixed. IE could there be circumstances in nvda with another program
running that means the system cannot unhook the files it needs to change?
That was muy feeling when I saw the log but without knowing the files its
a bit like a game of battleships!
Brian

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----- Original Message ----- From: "Quentin Christensen" <
quentin@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Monday, October 02, 2017 10:51 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Update issues on snapshots again


I just installed 14463 on Windows 7, 64-bit, then ran that copy and
upgraded to 14473 and it seems to be working fine for me.

How is yours after a reboot?

Quentin.

On Mon, Oct 2, 2017 at 7:45 PM, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io <
bglists@...> wrote:

Anyone running master having update issues today?

Windows 7 64 just did an update as flagged and it deleted the main files
then fell over with file in use errors leaving it completely brokeen,
Luckily I do have a bckup portable but that won't install either. I
seem to
feel that something that told NVDA to stop using some old files seems to
have failed.
I will need to reboot the computer and then do a clean install I
suspect.
Info nobody running master as an installed copy is having this issue
then
one has to say its an anomaly here, but I cannot see why it would happen
when the last few updates have gone fine.
Brian

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-- 
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

Official NVDA Training modules and expert certification now available:
http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

www.nvaccess.org
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
Twitter: @NVAccess












-- 
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

Official NVDA Training modules and expert certification now available:
http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

www.nvaccess.org
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
Twitter: @NVAccess




.







Re: Braille, how many use it?

Sarah k Alawami
 

I know 5 people who read about 3-400 words per minute, not out loud but to themselves. They practiced reading with all of their fingers, that i cannot do for a lot of reasons. If I had a braille display I'm sure it would help a bit but oh well.

On Oct 3, 2017, at 1:26 PM, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:

Perhaps 300 pages a month isn't that much but it should have been plenty enough that, if my speed was going to go above between 180 and 200 words per minute in ten years, it would have.  Sighted children don't start reading enormous amounts of print.  And for all I know, I may have actually read more like 400 or 500 pages a month.  I read a science fiction magazine each month, a lot of articles and short stories, from Playboy, and now and then, a book consisting of anywhere from one to two or perhaps three volumes.  Whatever the figure was, reading between 300 and four hundred pages a month over at least ten years should have caused my Braille speed to increase to more than 200 words per minute if it was going to.  It didn't.  I believe that there are variations in Braille reading speed because of differences in people's brains.  There are differences in how fast sighted people read print but the average print reading speed is, from what I've heard, about 300 words per minute.  I'd be surprised if the average Braille reading speed, among those who have read Braille since being children, is more than somewhere between 160 and 180 as a rough guess.  
 
I have a blind friend who reads at, my guess would b e, about 250 words per minute but I don't think I've known more than one person who reads at nearly that speed. 
 
Gene 
----- Original Message -----
From: Steve Nutt
Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2017 2:57 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Braille, how many use it?

Hi,

Not only that, Gene's 300 pages per month is actually not that much.  I used
to read a Braille book a day when I was on summer holidays.  So it's
application.

I can also read Braille extremely fast and I believe that anyone especially
if they start learning early, can read fast with a little application.

All the best

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Moty
Azrad
Sent: 03 October 2017 18:38
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Braille, how many use it?

Hi,

I must say that Braille is very very important for me and for everyone who
reads Braille books or other material.
Don't forget blind users that have hearing lost and they must use Braille.
When I read another language, like English that is not my mother tongue - I
enjoy and understand what I read with Braille and I can see the spelling of
each word because this point, is very important for me.
So, I say thanks for NVDA developments that continue to improve support for
the Braille users.

Thanks

moti azrad

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Damien
Sykes-Lindley
Sent: Tuesday, October 3, 2017 16:15
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Braille, how many use it?

Hi,
Braille displays are super expensive. So expensive, in fact, that I'm
surprised they're still on the market!
As for me, very naughty me, especially being total, I haven't touched
Braille in ten years. Consequently, I've forgotten most of it! I'm a speech
user all the way.
Cheers.
Damien.
-----Original Message-----
From: Steve Nutt
Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2017 2:04 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Braille, how many use it?

Hi,

I wouldn't be without Braille personally.  You can only tell so much with
speech, unless you turn on formatting and all that jazz.

All the best

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian's
Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: 03 October 2017 12:42
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Braille, how many use it?

Tis is just a question. I see a lot of work going on on the development
front to make these displays and the entering of the code more intuitive and
better.
I just wondered how many folk here can afford to use a Braille display on
their machines? Since the promised Orbit seems to be having issues getting
out  of the factory, most of the other choices out there need a second
mortgage to buy them!

Just musing that was all.
Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
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Re: Braille, how many use it?

Pascal Lambert
 

I haven’t timed myself for a long time, but I am sure I read in excess of 300 words a minutes. I read using both hands mainly the index fingers, middle fingers, and ring fingers which allow rapid scanning with the right hand finishing the line and the left starting the next line.

Blessings

Pascal   

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Tuesday, October 3, 2017 4:27 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Braille, how many use it?

 

Perhaps 300 pages a month isn't that much but it should have been plenty enough that, if my speed was going to go above between 180 and 200 words per minute in ten years, it would have.  Sighted children don't start reading enormous amounts of print.  And for all I know, I may have actually read more like 400 or 500 pages a month.  I read a science fiction magazine each month, a lot of articles and short stories, from Playboy, and now and then, a book consisting of anywhere from one to two or perhaps three volumes.  Whatever the figure was, reading between 300 and four hundred pages a month over at least ten years should have caused my Braille speed to increase to more than 200 words per minute if it was going to.  It didn't.  I believe that there are variations in Braille reading speed because of differences in people's brains.  There are differences in how fast sighted people read print but the average print reading speed is, from what I've heard, about 300 words per minute.  I'd be surprised if the average Braille reading speed, among those who have read Braille since being children, is more than somewhere between 160 and 180 as a rough guess.  

 

I have a blind friend who reads at, my guess would b e, about 250 words per minute but I don't think I've known more than one person who reads at nearly that speed. 

 

Gene 

----- Original Message -----

From: Steve Nutt

Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2017 2:57 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Braille, how many use it?

 

Hi,

Not only that, Gene's 300 pages per month is actually not that much.  I used
to read a Braille book a day when I was on summer holidays.  So it's
application.

I can also read Braille extremely fast and I believe that anyone especially
if they start learning early, can read fast with a little application.

All the best

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Moty
Azrad
Sent: 03 October 2017 18:38
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Braille, how many use it?

Hi,

I must say that Braille is very very important for me and for everyone who
reads Braille books or other material.
Don't forget blind users that have hearing lost and they must use Braille.
When I read another language, like English that is not my mother tongue - I
enjoy and understand what I read with Braille and I can see the spelling of
each word because this point, is very important for me.
So, I say thanks for NVDA developments that continue to improve support for
the Braille users.

Thanks

moti azrad

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Damien
Sykes-Lindley
Sent: Tuesday, October 3, 2017 16:15
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Braille, how many use it?

Hi,
Braille displays are super expensive. So expensive, in fact, that I'm
surprised they're still on the market!
As for me, very naughty me, especially being total, I haven't touched
Braille in ten years. Consequently, I've forgotten most of it! I'm a speech
user all the way.
Cheers.
Damien.
-----Original Message-----
From: Steve Nutt
Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2017 2:04 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Braille, how many use it?

Hi,

I wouldn't be without Braille personally.  You can only tell so much with
speech, unless you turn on formatting and all that jazz.

All the best

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian's
Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: 03 October 2017 12:42
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Braille, how many use it?

Tis is just a question. I see a lot of work going on on the development
front to make these displays and the entering of the code more intuitive and
better.
I just wondered how many folk here can afford to use a Braille display on
their machines? Since the promised Orbit seems to be having issues getting
out  of the factory, most of the other choices out there need a second
mortgage to buy them!

Just musing that was all.
Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
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Re: Braille, how many use it?

Pascal Lambert
 

Very few people use Braille in the USA because for a long time it has been discouraged and many schools for the blind pushed large print and audio over Braille. Today blind sudents are mainstreamed and thus get very little instruction in the use of Braille through their itinerant teacher. As a result, many of them are not competent Braille readers. I use both and by far prefer Braille for many tasks and many readings that require paying close studying. I have the costly Braille Sense U2 and enjoy using it a lot over my laptop. I do most of the serfing on the laptop as the Braille Sense u2 is much slower and many pages do not load due to its old browser. We need to push Braille literacy as Braille is more efficient for many tasks. I learned Braille in France where it is very much emphasized. Most French Braille users read an average of 300 to 400 words a minute and use both hands to read.
Blessings
Pascal

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of brian
Sent: Tuesday, October 3, 2017 4:37 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Braille, how many use it?

I do prefer braille to speack and if braille displays were afordable I would try one and if there was a full page display that would be great. I know that lots of blind people preferaudio to braille but for thoseof us who do prefer braille we are all to often forced to get only audio instead of our prefered format braille. We are being denied braille.

Brian Sackrider


On 10/3/2017 9:14 AM, Damien Sykes-Lindley wrote:
Hi,
Braille displays are super expensive. So expensive, in fact, that I'm
surprised they're still on the market!
As for me, very naughty me, especially being total, I haven't touched
Braille in ten years. Consequently, I've forgotten most of it! I'm a
speech user all the way.
Cheers.
Damien.
-----Original Message----- From: Steve Nutt
Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2017 2:04 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Braille, how many use it?

Hi,

I wouldn't be without Braille personally. You can only tell so much
with speech, unless you turn on formatting and all that jazz.

All the best

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: 03 October 2017 12:42
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Braille, how many use it?

Tis is just a question. I see a lot of work going on on the
development front to make these displays and the entering of the code
more intuitive and better.
I just wondered how many folk here can afford to use a Braille display
on their machines? Since the promised Orbit seems to be having issues
getting out of the factory, most of the other choices out there need
a second mortgage to buy them!

Just musing that was all.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.












Re: Braille, how many use it?

Antony Stone
 

Does anyone here know what is special or unusual about the Orbit technology,
so that it's (at least in theory) possible for them to manufacture and sell
for such a low price compared to traditional displays?

I know that the vast majority, if not all, of other Braille displays are based
on piezo-electric actuators to raise and lower the pins (which partly explains
the price, and also explains the physical size of the displays, and why multi-
line displays can't reasonably be made), but I'm wondering whether anyone here
knows what different technology the Orbit is based on so that it can be made so
much cheaper?


Antony.

On Tuesday 03 October 2017 at 21:48:30, Brian wrote:

That was what made me make the post. Nobody in the UK can get them, its
been soon for about three years now.
RNIB could not get a straight answer, though some prototypes are in the
hands of some people apparently reliability of these is less than good, but
then they are prototypes and the software is still dumb by comparison to a
big expensive one.
Brian
----- Original Message -----
From: "Adriani Botez" <adriani.botez@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2017 2:43 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Braille, how many use it?

How about orbit reader? It is the cheapest braille display. Did they manage
to start shipping?

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: nvda@nvda.groups.io Im Auftrag von Antony Stone
Gesendet: Dienstag, 3. Oktober 2017 15:28
An: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Betreff: Re: [nvda] Braille, how many use it?

Braille displays are indeed very expensive to buy new, but they remain
manufactured and available because the majority of purchases are by
employers or government education departments who are required to provide
funding for disabled people under many countries' anti-discrimination laws.

That said, I have had good success buying second-hand displays on eBay,
because no employer or education funder will consider supplying a
second-hand device, but they can still be passed on in a good working
condition after someone leaves their job or comes to the end of their
training.

I do wish lower-cost new Braille displays were available, but so long as
the majority of the customers are organisations which can afford them and
don't question the price, they will continue to pay current prices for
them in just the same way as they pay for Jaws licences, instead of
funding the development of NVDA and then getting as many copies as they
like for free afterwards.


Antony.

On Tuesday 03 October 2017 at 15:14:41, Damien Sykes-Lindley wrote:
Hi,
Braille displays are super expensive. So expensive, in fact, that I'm
surprised they're still on the market!
As for me, very naughty me, especially being total, I haven't touched
Braille in ten years. Consequently, I've forgotten most of it! I'm a
speech user all the way.
Cheers.
Damien.
-----Original Message-----
From: Steve Nutt
Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2017 2:04 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Braille, how many use it?

Hi,

I wouldn't be without Braille personally. You can only tell so much
with speech, unless you turn on formatting and all that jazz.

All the best

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: 03 October 2017 12:42
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Braille, how many use it?

Tis is just a question. I see a lot of work going on on the
development front to make these displays and the entering of the code
more intuitive and better.
I just wondered how many folk here can afford to use a Braille display
on their machines? Since the promised Orbit seems to be having issues
getting out of the factory, most of the other choices out there need
a second mortgage to buy them!

Just musing that was all.
Brian
--
"Life is just a lot better if you feel you're having 10 [small] wins a day
rather than a [big] win every 10 years or so."

- Chris Hadfield, former skiing (and ski racing) instructor

Please reply to the
list; please *don't* CC me.
--
Under UK law, no VAT is charged on biscuits and cakes - they are "zero rated".
Chocolate covered biscuits, however, are classed as "luxury items" and are
subject to VAT. McVitie's classed its Jaffa Cakes as cakes, but in 1991 this
was challenged by Her Majesty's Customs and Excise in court.

The question which had to be answered was what criteria should be used to
class something as a cake or a biscuit. McVitie's defended the classification
of Jaffa Cakes as a cake by arguing that cakes go hard when stale, whereas
biscuits go soft. It was demonstrated that Jaffa Cakes become hard when stale
and McVitie's won the case.

Please reply to the list;
please *don't* CC me.


Re: Read to end of document not working in NVDA

chris miles
 

On 03/10/2017 01:18, Dan Thompson wrote:

HI All,

I use to be able to press one of the nvda keys along with down arrow and text would be read from the cursor’s location to the end of the document.  This stopped a few upgrades ago.  I thought it would come back but has not yet.  I explored the menus but can’t find a setting except unchecking “simple review mode” to try.  So I did uncheck the box and nothing really changed.  Does any have any idea how to get the read to end back?

 

Thanks very much in advance.

subscribe to "Hotspot With God" daily devotion by sending a blank message with "subscribe devotion" in the subject line to

dmt031073@...

TRUTH FOR TODAY:

Romans 8:28, "And we know that God causes everything to work together for the good of those who  love God and are called according to his purpose for them." (NLT)

Psalm 119:60, "I will hasten and not delay to obey your commands." (NIV)

 

Hi,


To read to the end of a document:-

Press NVDA key and a

To stop reading:

Press control.


Re: Braille, how many use it?

Daniel Wolak
 

Hi,
As a braille user myself, I have to agree. In fact, I've just read this
entire thread on a brailliant bi-40 :) I've been using mine every day
pretty much for about four years, and it's still working great. A bit
pricy, but I can't see it breaking down any time soon. Just my thoughts.
Cheers,

Daniel

On 10/3/2017 9:06 PM, Steve Nutt wrote:
Hi,

Trouble is, in my view anyway, you can't have cheap and reliable, the two
just don't go together. And what about support?

All the best

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian's
Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: 03 October 2017 20:49
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Braille, how many use it?

That was what made me make the post. Nobody in the UK can get them, its been
soon for about three years now.
RNIB could not get a straight answer, though some prototypes are in the
hands of some people apparently reliability of these is less than good, but
then they are prototypes and the software is still dumb by comparison to a
big expensive one.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Adriani Botez" <adriani.botez@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2017 2:43 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Braille, how many use it?


How about orbit reader? It is the cheapest braille display. Did they manage
to start shipping?


-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] Im Auftrag von Antony
Stone
Gesendet: Dienstag, 3. Oktober 2017 15:28
An: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Betreff: Re: [nvda] Braille, how many use it?

Braille displays are indeed very expensive to buy new, but they remain
manufactured and available because the majority of purchases are by
employers or government education departments who are required to provide
funding for disabled people under many countries' anti-discrimination laws.

That said, I have had good success buying second-hand displays on eBay,
because no employer or education funder will consider supplying a
second-hand device, but they can still be passed on in a good working
condition after someone leaves their job or comes to the end of their
training.

I do wish lower-cost new Braille displays were available, but so long as the
majority of the customers are organisations which can afford them and don't
question the price, they will continue to pay current prices for them in
just the same way as they pay for Jaws licences, instead of funding the
development of NVDA and then getting as many copies as they like for free
afterwards.


Antony.

On Tuesday 03 October 2017 at 15:14:41, Damien Sykes-Lindley wrote:

Hi,
Braille displays are super expensive. So expensive, in fact, that I'm
surprised they're still on the market!
As for me, very naughty me, especially being total, I haven't touched
Braille in ten years. Consequently, I've forgotten most of it! I'm a
speech user all the way.
Cheers.
Damien.
-----Original Message-----
From: Steve Nutt
Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2017 2:04 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Braille, how many use it?

Hi,

I wouldn't be without Braille personally. You can only tell so much
with speech, unless you turn on formatting and all that jazz.

All the best

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: 03 October 2017 12:42
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Braille, how many use it?

Tis is just a question. I see a lot of work going on on the
development front to make these displays and the entering of the code
more intuitive and better.
I just wondered how many folk here can afford to use a Braille display
on their machines? Since the promised Orbit seems to be having issues
getting out of the factory, most of the other choices out there need
a second mortgage to buy them!

Just musing that was all.
Brian
--
"Life is just a lot better if you feel you're having 10 [small] wins a day
rather than a [big] win every 10 years or so."

- Chris Hadfield, former skiing (and ski racing) instructor

Please reply to the list;
please *don't* CC
me.















Re: Braille, how many use it?

Devin Prater
 

There is the vOICe, seeingwithsound.com, but it takes months to learn even the basics of sight, and I don't know how it would be for reading.

On Tue, Oct 3, 2017 at 3:35 PM brian <sackriderbrian45@...> wrote:
     I do prefer braille to speack and if braille displays were
afordable I would try one and if there was a full page display that
would be great.  I know that lots of blind people preferaudio to braille
but for thoseof us who do prefer braille we are all to often forced to
get only audio instead of our prefered format braille.  We are being
denied braille.

Brian Sackrider


On 10/3/2017 9:14 AM, Damien Sykes-Lindley wrote:
> Hi,
> Braille displays are super expensive. So expensive, in fact, that I'm
> surprised they're still on the market!
> As for me, very naughty me, especially being total, I haven't touched
> Braille in ten years. Consequently, I've forgotten most of it! I'm a
> speech user all the way.
> Cheers.
> Damien.
> -----Original Message----- From: Steve Nutt
> Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2017 2:04 PM
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
> Subject: Re: [nvda] Braille, how many use it?
>
> Hi,
>
> I wouldn't be without Braille personally.  You can only tell so much with
> speech, unless you turn on formatting and all that jazz.
>
> All the best
>
> Steve
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
> Brian's
> Mail list account via Groups.Io
> Sent: 03 October 2017 12:42
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
> Subject: [nvda] Braille, how many use it?
>
> Tis is just a question. I see a lot of work going on on the development
> front to make these displays and the entering of the code more
> intuitive and
> better.
> I just wondered how many folk here can afford to use a Braille display on
> their machines? Since the promised Orbit seems to be having issues
> getting
> out  of the factory, most of the other choices out there need a second
> mortgage to buy them!
>
> Just musing that was all.
> Brian
>
> bglists@...
> Sent via blueyonder.
> Please address personal email to:-
> briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
> in the display name field.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>




--

sent from Inbox by Gmail.
Devin Prater

r.d.t.prater@...


Re: Braille, how many use it?

brian <sackriderbrian45@...>
 

I do prefer braille to speack and if braille displays were afordable I would try one and if there was a full page display that would be great.  I know that lots of blind people preferaudio to braille but for thoseof us who do prefer braille we are all to often forced to get only audio instead of our prefered format braille.  We are being denied braille.

Brian Sackrider

On 10/3/2017 9:14 AM, Damien Sykes-Lindley wrote:
Hi,
Braille displays are super expensive. So expensive, in fact, that I'm surprised they're still on the market!
As for me, very naughty me, especially being total, I haven't touched Braille in ten years. Consequently, I've forgotten most of it! I'm a speech user all the way.
Cheers.
Damien.
-----Original Message----- From: Steve Nutt
Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2017 2:04 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Braille, how many use it?

Hi,

I wouldn't be without Braille personally.  You can only tell so much with
speech, unless you turn on formatting and all that jazz.

All the best

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian's
Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: 03 October 2017 12:42
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Braille, how many use it?

Tis is just a question. I see a lot of work going on on the development
front to make these displays and the entering of the code more intuitive and
better.
I just wondered how many folk here can afford to use a Braille display on
their machines? Since the promised Orbit seems to be having issues getting
out  of the factory, most of the other choices out there need a second
mortgage to buy them!

Just musing that was all.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
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Re: Braille, how many use it?

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

Yes several here talk about making it smaller, but many older people have problems now and as most computer Braille is now8 dot I could not really cope with it when I tried it.
As I said, we need a broad band replacement for sight.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Shaun Everiss" <sm.everiss@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2017 8:22 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Braille, how many use it?


Well I have a boss I do work for in psycology and he worries about braille.

The fact is, well there are 3 facts.

THe major one ofcause well 2 is.

1. while we can print braille on paper bulky as it is easy enough, we still need the old style analog pins and the like to drive the dots and such.

Eventually something needs to be done.

The other fact is sad but true.

Braille is so yesteryear.

You don't need braille at all, in fact the blind never need braille as long as they have speech and power for devices.

If your deff or loose power for things for a long period its another matter.

Braille books are bulky in paper form.

I do read braille and have been using it since school as well as reading the odd book from time to time.

But braille isn't much use to me anymore.

If we got things working in a modernised environment, fine.

But we need to do it quickly else braille will go the way of the 386 computer, windows xp, win98, and a lot of the manual equipment of yesteryear.

Its not relivent in todays world allready.

If it became as good as say well updated to todays standards for output and input then maybe its got a chance.




On 4/10/2017 2:14 a.m., Damien Sykes-Lindley wrote:
Hi,
Braille displays are super expensive. So expensive, in fact, that I'm surprised they're still on the market!
As for me, very naughty me, especially being total, I haven't touched Braille in ten years. Consequently, I've forgotten most of it! I'm a speech user all the way.
Cheers.
Damien.
-----Original Message----- From: Steve Nutt
Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2017 2:04 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Braille, how many use it?

Hi,

I wouldn't be without Braille personally. You can only tell so much with
speech, unless you turn on formatting and all that jazz.

All the best

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian's
Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: 03 October 2017 12:42
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Braille, how many use it?

Tis is just a question. I see a lot of work going on on the development
front to make these displays and the entering of the code more intuitive and
better.
I just wondered how many folk here can afford to use a Braille display on
their machines? Since the promised Orbit seems to be having issues getting
out of the factory, most of the other choices out there need a second
mortgage to buy them!

Just musing that was all.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.













Re: Update issues on snapshots again

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

Yes I know, but the fact is the problem started only recently, indeed at the fix for the firefox not accessible after an nvda reboot was sorted. the fix that broke support for xp and vista as part of it called a routine not built into those two operating systems. But part of this was to make fresh copies of files hard to unhook and link them in and then delete the artificially locked old files on next system reboot. this however is failing on my windows 7 machines at the first hurdle ie rename the files or folders as after renaming them to a temp name they still seem to be linked and in the same folder as the newer files. this then makes deletion ion and renaming faille intermittently for no apparent reason at the update. the only way I've found around this, even running the temp copy from the c: drive is to be sure that the temp or installed version has not been run in a windows session then do the update from a manually downloaded file from the web site. This will always work.
Sadly the new next snap today has further issues as the golden cursor add on is calling a routine that seems to be missing in the current download, either by design or accident. I did wonder if the removal of the service creation and run code taken out today might be to blame for this. I agree there is no point using and creating a bit of code no longer used by the systems you support, but maybe some add ons do?
I could of cores be totally wrong.
My main issue on nvda development now that Jamie has gone is that a lot of people seem to be doing work on bits of nvda and it all seems to be unpoliced until the snap is updated and then it kind of is hard to tell who's bit caused the problem. Reminds me of that old joke. If I get there first Ill make a chalk mark on the oak tree if you do rub it out.
Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Shaun Everiss" <sm.everiss@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2017 8:17 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Update issues on snapshots again


I have had this happen with msse and other antivirus, the issue is that so many things are in the background that you don't know when a bit of software decides to do a function.

I get this often with external hard drives.

On my personal win10 devices I just disable autoplay entirely because I can't get to the visual controls and I don't need it.

On the family and networked stations users use it and I need it up.

With the flash sticks I just roodly pull them.

I may damage a stick but so what.

Ofcause thats fine with the small sticks but bigger ones and my hdds I really don't want to just pull.

In most cases I wait for them to eventually stop being used.

But that can take to half an hour at times sometimes accessing them then exiting the file explorer window will solve it.

For files, usually its stuff that can't be deleted, in most cases I just restart the ystem and then you can do it.

Technically there are utilities which can delete things before windows shell starts which seems to be a big issue.

Before windows starts all files have no links to them and can be easily killed, obviously for security and such a user just can't g et access to this, it needs to be done just after the kernal loads but before the shell does.





On 4/10/2017 12:28 a.m., Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io wrote:
Its getting even more complicated now as the same is happening on the portable installs. It seems to me that files in nvda are being held as un renamable even when a different copy of nvda is running, thus when the temp copy of the installer on next or master attempts to rename the old files before deleting them after replacement it simply cannot do so unless its straight after a system restart.

Is this something peculiar to windows 7, is there anything you can think of that might be doing this or what? As it seems to affect this and the other machine in different locations then it looks to me like something is keeping files as in use when they are not.
I'm at a loss to know wheere to proceed with this as onther software that updates behaves as it always used to and if it were a windows issue it would show up elsewhere one would have thought.


I have now restored working by doing resets and running a third copy to run the instalations of both master and next to make the appropriate versions carefully making sure not to have had that version I'm installing or copying over in that windows session. this unfortunately really means manual download of the installed branch, Master so one can control the session.
Is there any way to tell which files windows treats as in use?
I did notice a change about when this started by Mick of changing file names to stop the old copies from being used in the new version so that Firefox would not become unusable when nvda updates if it happened to be running at that time. It was around this time things started to misbehave.


Before that could it have been handled differently so that the problem was not noticed?
Brian

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----- Original Message ----- From: "Quentin Christensen" <quentin@nvaccess.org>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2017 10:08 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Update issues on snapshots again


May be too late to get the original log back, but per
https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/wiki/LogFilesAndCrashDumps if you look in
%temp%, you should find any recent logs which still exist and there may be
something in there.


On Tue, Oct 3, 2017 at 7:09 PM, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io <
bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io> wrote:

Further to this, the same problems have occurred today updating to the one
with the slight documentation changes, so the problem still exists.
I had to restart windows to get the installer to run. It is, as I say not
allowing things to be deleted. Any ideas on what to try in nvda?
Its obibviously a recent issue.

I could completely reinstall but that would be impractical at the moment
due to work.

Besides if its affecting me then when the new version comes out there is
going to be a lot of problems.
Brian

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----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian's Mail list account via
Groups.Io" <bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2017 8:17 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Update issues on snapshots again


Yes this reboot is fine but its hard to replicate the exact conditions you
had the first time certainly not just by reinstalling old version and
updating again seems not to create the issue. it is obviously something
going on which still leaves some files locked. Could the log somehow tell
us which the files are which are causing it. That might suggest the issue
to be fixed. IE could there be circumstances in nvda with another program
running that means the system cannot unhook the files it needs to change?
That was muy feeling when I saw the log but without knowing the files its
a bit like a game of battleships!
Brian

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----- Original Message ----- From: "Quentin Christensen" <
quentin@nvaccess.org>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Monday, October 02, 2017 10:51 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Update issues on snapshots again


I just installed 14463 on Windows 7, 64-bit, then ran that copy and
upgraded to 14473 and it seems to be working fine for me.

How is yours after a reboot?

Quentin.

On Mon, Oct 2, 2017 at 7:45 PM, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io <
bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io> wrote:

Anyone running master having update issues today?

Windows 7 64 just did an update as flagged and it deleted the main files
then fell over with file in use errors leaving it completely brokeen,
Luckily I do have a bckup portable but that won't install either. I
seem to
feel that something that told NVDA to stop using some old files seems to
have failed.
I will need to reboot the computer and then do a clean install I
suspect.
Info nobody running master as an installed copy is having this issue
then
one has to say its an anomaly here, but I cannot see why it would happen
when the last few updates have gone fine.
Brian

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--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

Official NVDA Training modules and expert certification now available:
http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

www.nvaccess.org
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
Twitter: @NVAccess






--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

Official NVDA Training modules and expert certification now available:
http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

www.nvaccess.org
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
Twitter: @NVAccess


.