Date   

Re: Braille, how many use it?

Gene
 

Perhaps 300 pages a month isn't that much but it should have been plenty enough that, if my speed was going to go above between 180 and 200 words per minute in ten years, it would have.  Sighted children don't start reading enormous amounts of print.  And for all I know, I may have actually read more like 400 or 500 pages a month.  I read a science fiction magazine each month, a lot of articles and short stories, from Playboy, and now and then, a book consisting of anywhere from one to two or perhaps three volumes.  Whatever the figure was, reading between 300 and four hundred pages a month over at least ten years should have caused my Braille speed to increase to more than 200 words per minute if it was going to.  It didn't.  I believe that there are variations in Braille reading speed because of differences in people's brains.  There are differences in how fast sighted people read print but the average print reading speed is, from what I've heard, about 300 words per minute.  I'd be surprised if the average Braille reading speed, among those who have read Braille since being children, is more than somewhere between 160 and 180 as a rough guess.  
 
I have a blind friend who reads at, my guess would b e, about 250 words per minute but I don't think I've known more than one person who reads at nearly that speed. 
 
Gene 

----- Original Message -----
From: Steve Nutt
Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2017 2:57 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Braille, how many use it?

Hi,

Not only that, Gene's 300 pages per month is actually not that much.  I used
to read a Braille book a day when I was on summer holidays.  So it's
application.

I can also read Braille extremely fast and I believe that anyone especially
if they start learning early, can read fast with a little application.

All the best

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Moty
Azrad
Sent: 03 October 2017 18:38
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Braille, how many use it?

Hi,

I must say that Braille is very very important for me and for everyone who
reads Braille books or other material.
Don't forget blind users that have hearing lost and they must use Braille.
When I read another language, like English that is not my mother tongue - I
enjoy and understand what I read with Braille and I can see the spelling of
each word because this point, is very important for me.
So, I say thanks for NVDA developments that continue to improve support for
the Braille users.

Thanks

moti azrad

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Damien
Sykes-Lindley
Sent: Tuesday, October 3, 2017 16:15
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Braille, how many use it?

Hi,
Braille displays are super expensive. So expensive, in fact, that I'm
surprised they're still on the market!
As for me, very naughty me, especially being total, I haven't touched
Braille in ten years. Consequently, I've forgotten most of it! I'm a speech
user all the way.
Cheers.
Damien.
-----Original Message-----
From: Steve Nutt
Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2017 2:04 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Braille, how many use it?

Hi,

I wouldn't be without Braille personally.  You can only tell so much with
speech, unless you turn on formatting and all that jazz.

All the best

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian's
Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: 03 October 2017 12:42
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Braille, how many use it?

Tis is just a question. I see a lot of work going on on the development
front to make these displays and the entering of the code more intuitive and
better.
I just wondered how many folk here can afford to use a Braille display on
their machines? Since the promised Orbit seems to be having issues getting
out  of the factory, most of the other choices out there need a second
mortgage to buy them!

Just musing that was all.
Brian

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Re: NVDA Country Subgroups

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

I think what would be nice is for anyone who is multilingual on such lists when they come across a bug they do an issue in English or at least ask on an English list if its just a bug in their language.
Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Bernd Dorer" <bdorer+nvda@mailbox.org>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2017 7:25 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA Country Subgroups


Hi Adriani,

there is allready a German nvda mailinglist on ml4free.de

hth Bernd
Am 01.10.2017 um 21:18 schrieb adriani.botez via Groups.Io:
Dear all,

What do you think about the idea of creating subgroups of this NVDA
group for each country which has many active users? As of now there
are lots of mail lists and platforms worldwide where NVDA users and
developers discuss. At a point when there will be an NVDA Add-on store
for everyone, does it not make sense to try to bring users and
developers worldwide more next to each other? Even though those
subgroups would not solve the language problem, they would somehow
make people more aware about the international importance of NVDA. I
came to this idea because we have a network in germany but not
everyone speaks englisch to be able to read anything in the main
group. But I am sure that here are also people who speak other
languages and would like to talk to NVDA users from those countries.
And in fact, you would have a big platform for discussion instead of
hundreeds of mail lists and such.


Best
Adriani


Re: Braille, how many use it?

Sarah k Alawami
 

I've seen the orbit actually. No curser routing, and updates can only be done on windows, which is fine if you use windows. Since I use a mac about 24-6 and if I'm somewhere where a windows machine won't be had, I'm in trouble. I spoke to the developers about this but they think I'm off my rocker.

Oh and the reader is very loud, they said that's the way it is, deal or don't buy. Money talks, I'm not buying.

On Oct 3, 2017, at 12:35 PM, Roger Stewart <paganus2@gmail.com> wrote:

I'd gladly use a braille display if I could afford one. If the Orbit display had come out as advertised, I might have one of those but that just isn't happening. There's no one here who will pay for anything like this as I'm 70 years old and not a client of any rehab agency or anything like that. Maybe the Chinese will come up with a functioning and affordable display someday.

Roger











On 10/3/2017 8:14 AM, Damien Sykes-Lindley wrote:
Hi,
Braille displays are super expensive. So expensive, in fact, that I'm surprised they're still on the market!
As for me, very naughty me, especially being total, I haven't touched Braille in ten years. Consequently, I've forgotten most of it! I'm a speech user all the way.
Cheers.
Damien.
-----Original Message----- From: Steve Nutt
Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2017 2:04 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Braille, how many use it?

Hi,

I wouldn't be without Braille personally. You can only tell so much with
speech, unless you turn on formatting and all that jazz.

All the best

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian's
Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: 03 October 2017 12:42
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Braille, how many use it?

Tis is just a question. I see a lot of work going on on the development
front to make these displays and the entering of the code more intuitive and
better.
I just wondered how many folk here can afford to use a Braille display on
their machines? Since the promised Orbit seems to be having issues getting
out of the factory, most of the other choices out there need a second
mortgage to buy them!

Just musing that was all.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
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.



Re: Braille, how many use it?

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

I think it should be there for children. its stupid not to have it.
No wonder so few can read it.
It is after all apart form w reasonably predictable dot wise in grade 1.
I guess the French never use W.
Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Sarah k Alawami" <marrie12@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2017 5:59 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Braille, how many use it?


There are actually bills here in my state to stop braille from being taught in the school districts. I'm not in agreement with that as I use braille. I's like my pen and pencil. It also helps me not exactly take tests as I'm a slow reader but I can get by at 120 wpm when giving a speech as I don't need to talk fast anyway.

On Oct 3, 2017, at 9:26 AM, Karim Lakhani <karim.lakhani@shaw.ca> wrote:

Schools in Edmonton stopped teaching cursive writing in grade 3.
So the future generation coming up are going to be so relyant
on technology just like us.




EMAIL:karim.lakhani@shaw.ca
$$$$
SKYPE: goldenace4
$$$$
Your reputation is in the hands of others. That's what a
reputation is. You can't control that. The only thing you
can control is your character.
- Wayne Walter Dyer (1940-)



-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf
Of Nevzat Adil
Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2017 7:30 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Braille, how many use it?

Braille is as important to a blind person as print is to someone
who can see. I do not see any sighted person saying they should
give up print because of technology. I am glad NVDA developers
are working on making it braille friendly. The fact that braille
displays are too expensive should not discourage learning braille
as prices are bound to come down and many get those devices the
government or private programs, anyway.

On 10/3/17, Robert Mendoza <lowvisiontek@gmail.com> wrote:
Lucky of those who has a braille display, cause here it is very
expensive and you need to buy it online or rather to pre-order
to the
selected store. So I simply used the ordinary keyboard.

Robert Mendoza

On 10/3/2017 5:41 AM, Adriani Botez wrote:
In Germany they are also bein paid by ministery of labor or by
the
health insurance company. And very often is being individually
judged
if the person gets the device paid or not. It depends on the
time
period since last payment or on how well tested is the
technical
features of the device.


-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] Im
Auftrag von
Mallard
Gesendet: Dienstag, 3. Oktober 2017 14:35
An: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Betreff: Re: [nvda] Braille, how many use it?

I agree. Luckily, the National Health Service here in Italy
gives us
braille displays, either totally paid by the National Health
Service
itself, or partly - depending on the cost of the device.


I used an Optacon before the advent of braille displays, and
still
do, but on paper and ereaders; no longer on a pc screen, due
to
uncomfortable position of my workstation.


I couldn't live without braille! I switched to NVDA only once
braille
support was introduced.

Ciao,

Ollie





Il 03/10/2017 13:41, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
ha scritto:
Tis is just a question. I see a lot of work going on on the
development front to make these displays and the entering of
the
code more intuitive and better.
I just wondered how many folk here can afford to use a
Braille
display on their machines? Since the promised Orbit seems to
be
having issues getting out of the factory, most of the other
choices
out there need a second mortgage to buy them!

Just musing that was all.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
















Re: Braille, how many use it?

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

What no handwriting, what will the doctors of the future use to be incomprehensible then?
Even I can still sign my name which is just as well as my bank needs me to do it when I want money.
Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Karim Lakhani" <karim.lakhani@shaw.ca>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2017 5:26 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Braille, how many use it?


Schools in Edmonton stopped teaching cursive writing in grade 3.
So the future generation coming up are going to be so relyant
on technology just like us.




EMAIL:karim.lakhani@shaw.ca
$$$$
SKYPE: goldenace4
$$$$
Your reputation is in the hands of others. That's what a
reputation is. You can't control that. The only thing you
can control is your character.
- Wayne Walter Dyer (1940-)



-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf
Of Nevzat Adil
Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2017 7:30 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Braille, how many use it?

Braille is as important to a blind person as print is to someone
who can see. I do not see any sighted person saying they should
give up print because of technology. I am glad NVDA developers
are working on making it braille friendly. The fact that braille
displays are too expensive should not discourage learning braille
as prices are bound to come down and many get those devices the
government or private programs, anyway.

On 10/3/17, Robert Mendoza <lowvisiontek@gmail.com> wrote:
Lucky of those who has a braille display, cause here it is very
expensive and you need to buy it online or rather to pre-order
to the
selected store. So I simply used the ordinary keyboard.

Robert Mendoza

On 10/3/2017 5:41 AM, Adriani Botez wrote:
In Germany they are also bein paid by ministery of labor or by
the
health insurance company. And very often is being individually
judged
if the person gets the device paid or not. It depends on the
time
period since last payment or on how well tested is the
technical
features of the device.


-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] Im
Auftrag von
Mallard
Gesendet: Dienstag, 3. Oktober 2017 14:35
An: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Betreff: Re: [nvda] Braille, how many use it?

I agree. Luckily, the National Health Service here in Italy
gives us
braille displays, either totally paid by the National Health
Service
itself, or partly - depending on the cost of the device.


I used an Optacon before the advent of braille displays, and
still
do, but on paper and ereaders; no longer on a pc screen, due
to
uncomfortable position of my workstation.


I couldn't live without braille! I switched to NVDA only once
braille
support was introduced.

Ciao,

Ollie





Il 03/10/2017 13:41, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
ha scritto:
Tis is just a question. I see a lot of work going on on the
development front to make these displays and the entering of
the
code more intuitive and better.
I just wondered how many folk here can afford to use a
Braille
display on their machines? Since the promised Orbit seems to
be
having issues getting out of the factory, most of the other
choices
out there need a second mortgage to buy them!

Just musing that was all.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.












Re: Braille, how many use it?

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

I heartily agree with you, though listening fast I find quite stressful.
In away we are replacing the broadband medium of sight with two narrow band solutions. That will always be so unless we can get a kind of usb port on our skulls!

I know a lot of good Braille readers read two handed and the art of reading anything is to read ahead, something not even every sighted person can do well. Being the manager of a local talking Newspaper, I have learned to kind of fly by the seat of my pants without a script, but we do get volunteers who are very well sighted who, when presented with properly written articles get themselves into a mess as they catch themselves up when reading.
The upshot of all of this is that as I said to a friend who like climbing mountains and playing sport, you cannot be good at everything, and I'm no good at Braille at speed.
What often annoys me is that many companies out there still assume all blindies read it, and even our drug containers have it on them, and its possibly the worst rounded and flattened Braille you have ever found. then some pharmacist sticks a able on it.

Oh well, I'll get my divining rods out next week grin
Note we will all get a warning form the mods for drifting off topic. sorry.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
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Please address personal email to:-
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene" <gsasner@ripco.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2017 5:24 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Braille, how many use it?


It is a good idea for people who are blinded as adults to learn enough Braille, grade one, to be specific, to label things and organize things. Children should learn Braille just as sighted children learn print. But I am unconvinced that the argument that Braille is just like print in terms of everyone who is blind learning it. That is not a proper analogy.

For one thing, and I haven't seen any research on this but, despite what Braille proponents say, I remain unconvinced that Braille is nearly as good a medium as speech for many blind people in terms of ongoing general use. I was always annoyingly slow at reading Braille. Even in my early adult years, I learned Braille as a child, and in my early adult years, I would read about 300 Braille pages a month, I never got faster than about between 180 and 200 words a minute. Considering that I can listen to speech at between 350 and 400 words a minute with good comprehension, the contrast in efficiency is obvious. And why didn't my speed increase over time, reading as much Braille as I did for about ten years? Why do so many blind people I hear read Braille read only about as fast as they speak, resulting in pauses and stumbling over words as they read?

Some people can read Braille very quickly. My observations and experience cause me to be skeptical that most blind people read faster than about 180 or 200 words per minute. I'm talking about people who learn to read Braille as children at the age sighted children learn to read print.

And reading Braille was always more work and more tiring and fatiguing for me than listening to speech, a lot more so. Yet I have been innundated with the you should read Braille and with the implied message that if I don't, I am somehow using an inferior medium. If that's true, then let's get substantive information, real studies of some sort showing that I am wrong in my observations.

I said earlier that blind children should learn Braille and they should. They should use it in school, at least in grammar school so they learn proper spelling, punctuation, and learn to distinguish between words that sound similar or alike and mean different things and are spelled differently. How many times have I seen blind people write wander instead of wonder? Just one example.

And obviously, Braille is of vital importance in technical fields. But the general assumption that Braille is better for blind people as an unqualified generalization for daily and general use, has not been demonstrated to be correct in my observations and experience.

We are blind and, like it or not, being blind means that the analogical equivalent to something sighted people do, Braille to print, is not necessarily better or as good as a specifically blind oriented solution for many uses.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Damien Sykes-Lindley
Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2017 9:06 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Braille, how many use it?


Hi,
I don't see anyone saying that we should give up braille for technology.
That seemed to happen naturally in my case because I had no need to read it,
so I never did. Only recently when trying to play a game I realised just how
screwed my braille skills actually are.
In fact, I totally agree that braille would be better in some areas of work,
programming and large calculations being two such areas. On the other hand,
try asking for a disability/assistive technology grant over here and see if
you can break the record for the longest fight and largest number of
letdowns... I've just about given up hope on both the government and the
RNIB. Bleh.
Cheers.
Damien.
-----Original Message-----
From: Nevzat Adil
Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2017 2:29 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Braille, how many use it?

Braille is as important to a blind person as print is to someone who
can see. I do not see any sighted person saying they should give up
print because of technology. I am glad NVDA developers are working on
making it braille friendly. The fact that braille displays are too
expensive should not discourage learning braille as prices are bound
to come down and many get those devices the government or private
programs, anyway.

On 10/3/17, Robert Mendoza <lowvisiontek@gmail.com> wrote:
Lucky of those who has a braille display, cause here it is very
expensive and you need to buy it online or rather to pre-order to the
selected store. So I simply used the ordinary keyboard.

Robert Mendoza

On 10/3/2017 5:41 AM, Adriani Botez wrote:
In Germany they are also bein paid by ministery of labor or by the health
insurance company. And very often is being individually judged if the
person
gets the device paid or not. It depends on the time period since last
payment or on how well tested is the technical features of the device.


-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] Im Auftrag von
Mallard
Gesendet: Dienstag, 3. Oktober 2017 14:35
An: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Betreff: Re: [nvda] Braille, how many use it?

I agree. Luckily, the National Health Service here in Italy gives us
braille
displays, either totally paid by the National Health Service itself, or
partly - depending on the cost of the device.


I used an Optacon before the advent of braille displays, and still do,
but
on paper and ereaders; no longer on a pc screen, due to uncomfortable
position of my workstation.


I couldn't live without braille! I switched to NVDA only once braille
support was introduced.

Ciao,

Ollie





Il 03/10/2017 13:41, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io ha scritto:
Tis is just a question. I see a lot of work going on on the
development front to make these displays and the entering of the code
more intuitive and better.
I just wondered how many folk here can afford to use a Braille display
on their machines? Since the promised Orbit seems to be having issues
getting out of the factory, most of the other choices out there need
a second mortgage to buy them!

Just musing that was all.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.












Re: Braille, how many use it?

Steve Nutt
 

Hi,

Trouble is, in my view anyway, you can't have cheap and reliable, the two
just don't go together. And what about support?

All the best

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian's
Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: 03 October 2017 20:49
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Braille, how many use it?

That was what made me make the post. Nobody in the UK can get them, its been
soon for about three years now.
RNIB could not get a straight answer, though some prototypes are in the
hands of some people apparently reliability of these is less than good, but
then they are prototypes and the software is still dumb by comparison to a
big expensive one.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
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in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Adriani Botez" <adriani.botez@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2017 2:43 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Braille, how many use it?


How about orbit reader? It is the cheapest braille display. Did they manage
to start shipping?


-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] Im Auftrag von Antony
Stone
Gesendet: Dienstag, 3. Oktober 2017 15:28
An: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Betreff: Re: [nvda] Braille, how many use it?

Braille displays are indeed very expensive to buy new, but they remain
manufactured and available because the majority of purchases are by
employers or government education departments who are required to provide
funding for disabled people under many countries' anti-discrimination laws.

That said, I have had good success buying second-hand displays on eBay,
because no employer or education funder will consider supplying a
second-hand device, but they can still be passed on in a good working
condition after someone leaves their job or comes to the end of their
training.

I do wish lower-cost new Braille displays were available, but so long as the
majority of the customers are organisations which can afford them and don't
question the price, they will continue to pay current prices for them in
just the same way as they pay for Jaws licences, instead of funding the
development of NVDA and then getting as many copies as they like for free
afterwards.


Antony.

On Tuesday 03 October 2017 at 15:14:41, Damien Sykes-Lindley wrote:

Hi,
Braille displays are super expensive. So expensive, in fact, that I'm
surprised they're still on the market!
As for me, very naughty me, especially being total, I haven't touched
Braille in ten years. Consequently, I've forgotten most of it! I'm a
speech user all the way.
Cheers.
Damien.
-----Original Message-----
From: Steve Nutt
Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2017 2:04 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Braille, how many use it?

Hi,

I wouldn't be without Braille personally. You can only tell so much
with speech, unless you turn on formatting and all that jazz.

All the best

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: 03 October 2017 12:42
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Braille, how many use it?

Tis is just a question. I see a lot of work going on on the
development front to make these displays and the entering of the code
more intuitive and better.
I just wondered how many folk here can afford to use a Braille display
on their machines? Since the promised Orbit seems to be having issues
getting out of the factory, most of the other choices out there need
a second mortgage to buy them!

Just musing that was all.
Brian
--
"Life is just a lot better if you feel you're having 10 [small] wins a day
rather than a [big] win every 10 years or so."

- Chris Hadfield, former skiing (and ski racing) instructor

Please reply to the list;
please *don't* CC
me.


Re: Braille, how many use it?

Steve Nutt
 

Hi,

Notice that the people who say Braille is dying are the ones who can't read fast. This is getting better all the time <Smile>.

All the best

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Shaun Everiss
Sent: 03 October 2017 20:45
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Braille, how many use it?

I agree, manual braille is a dog to type at any real speed.

I never read that fast and my hands got sore from reading, the computer is much better.

Braille is outdated now.

I wouldn't want us to stop learning it but we need to upgrade braille completely because its not been fully modernised.




On 4/10/2017 7:23 a.m., erik burggraaf wrote:
Hi Gene,

As a child, my experience was similar to yours. I found braille slow
and uncomfortable. I was a one handed braille reader which slowed me
down further.

As an adult, I'm very greatful for my braille skills such as they are,
and refreshable braille I find much more comfortable than paper braille.

The evidence to support the use of braille as a direct visual medium
for the blind has been dresearched, ocumented, and pretty well
quantified. We can always do more to understand the brain, but
numerous studies measuring cortexes of blind people in verious
situations overwelmingly shows that the visual cortex of people who
are blind of all ages and regardless of whether they began sighted or
blind reacts to braille in the same way that that of a sighted person
does to print.

The scholarly articles on this abound, but they don't make for great
reading unless you're a nuroscientist. Start with this overview.
https://faculty.washington.edu/chudler/brail.html

It's a science article for kids, but it's professionally written,
won't insult your inteligence, and makes for more interesting reading
than articles from medical and scientific journals. A lot of the
scholarly writings came up for me in a search of "braille visual
cortex". Of course, most of the older ones are at the top, probably
because they are sited more often. Even the abstracts are a snore,
but they are all pretty clear that braille has a direct impact on
nural vision centres.

Enjoy,

Erik



On October 3, 2017 12:25:17 PM "Gene" <gsasner@ripco.com> wrote:

It is a good idea for people who are blinded as adults to learn enough
Braille, grade one, to be specific, to label things and organize
things. Children should learn Braille just as sighted children learn
print. But I am unconvinced that the argument that Braille is just
like print in terms of everyone who is blind learning it. That is not
a proper analogy.

For one thing, and I haven't seen any research on this but, despite
what Braille proponents say, I remain unconvinced that Braille is
nearly as good a medium as speech for many blind people in terms of
ongoing general use. I was always annoyingly slow at reading
Braille. Even in my early adult years, I learned Braille as a child,
and in my early adult years, I would read about 300 Braille pages a
month, I never got faster than about between 180 and 200 words a
minute. Considering that I can listen to speech at between 350 and
400 words a minute with good comprehension, the contrast in efficiency
is obvious. And why didn't my speed increase over time, reading as
much Braille as I did for about ten years? Why do so many blind
people I hear read Braille read only about as fast as they speak,
resulting in pauses and stumbling over words as they read?

Some people can read Braille very quickly. My observations and
experience cause me to be skeptical that most blind people read faster
than about 180 or 200 words per minute. I'm talking about people who
learn to read Braille as children at the age sighted children learn to
read print.

And reading Braille was always more work and more tiring and fatiguing
for me than listening to speech, a lot more so. Yet I have been
innundated with the you should read Braille and with the implied
message that if I don't, I am somehow using an inferior medium. If
that's true, then let's get substantive information, real studies of
some sort showing that I am wrong in my observations.

I said earlier that blind children should learn Braille and they
should. They should use it in school, at least in grammar school so
they learn proper spelling, punctuation, and learn to distinguish
between words that sound similar or alike and mean different things
and are spelled differently. How many times have I seen blind people
write wander instead of wonder? Just one example.

And obviously, Braille is of vital importance in technical fields.
But the general assumption that Braille is better for blind people as
an unqualified generalization for daily and general use, has not been
demonstrated to be correct in my observations and experience.

We are blind and, like it or not, being blind means that the
analogical equivalent to something sighted people do, Braille to
print, is not necessarily better or as good as a specifically blind
oriented solution for many uses.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Damien Sykes-Lindley
Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2017 9:06 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Braille, how many use it?


Hi,
I don't see anyone saying that we should give up braille for technology.
That seemed to happen naturally in my case because I had no need to
read it,
so I never did. Only recently when trying to play a game I realised
just how
screwed my braille skills actually are.
In fact, I totally agree that braille would be better in some areas of
work,
programming and large calculations being two such areas. On the other
hand,
try asking for a disability/assistive technology grant over here and
see if
you can break the record for the longest fight and largest number of
letdowns... I've just about given up hope on both the government and the
RNIB. Bleh.
Cheers.
Damien.
-----Original Message-----
From: Nevzat Adil
Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2017 2:29 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Braille, how many use it?

Braille is as important to a blind person as print is to someone who
can see. I do not see any sighted person saying they should give up
print because of technology. I am glad NVDA developers are working on
making it braille friendly. The fact that braille displays are too
expensive should not discourage learning braille as prices are bound
to come down and many get those devices the government or private
programs, anyway.

On 10/3/17, Robert Mendoza <lowvisiontek@gmail.com> wrote:
Lucky of those who has a braille display, cause here it is very
expensive and you need to buy it online or rather to pre-order to the
selected store. So I simply used the ordinary keyboard.

Robert Mendoza

On 10/3/2017 5:41 AM, Adriani Botez wrote:
In Germany they are also bein paid by ministery of labor or by the
health
insurance company. And very often is being individually judged if the
person
gets the device paid or not. It depends on the time period since last
payment or on how well tested is the technical features of the device.


-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] Im Auftrag von
Mallard
Gesendet: Dienstag, 3. Oktober 2017 14:35
An: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Betreff: Re: [nvda] Braille, how many use it?

I agree. Luckily, the National Health Service here in Italy gives us
braille
displays, either totally paid by the National Health Service itself, or
partly - depending on the cost of the device.


I used an Optacon before the advent of braille displays, and still do,
but
on paper and ereaders; no longer on a pc screen, due to uncomfortable
position of my workstation.


I couldn't live without braille! I switched to NVDA only once braille
support was introduced.

Ciao,

Ollie





Il 03/10/2017 13:41, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io ha
scritto:
Tis is just a question. I see a lot of work going on on the
development front to make these displays and the entering of the code
more intuitive and better.
I just wondered how many folk here can afford to use a Braille display
on their machines? Since the promised Orbit seems to be having issues
getting out of the factory, most of the other choices out there need
a second mortgage to buy them!

Just musing that was all.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
















Re: Braille, how many use it?

Steve Nutt
 

Hi Brian,

Actually speed of speech amuses me. I don't listen fast, but some blind
people think they are clever if they can read at a great rate, but if you
observe them closely, they tend to miss a lot and have to go back and
re-listen. I have heard this so much especially on phones, it just makes me
laugh.

All the best

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian's
Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: 03 October 2017 20:38
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Braille, how many use it?

The Lbraille maybe? Much of my problem with displays is that I find them a
bit too gentle for my older fingers to feel and as many do not have line
lengths representative of a real print document it can be an ask to actually
understand the formatting. I use speech but I cannot listen at the rate some
do it at. I do wish when you get a demo on a podcast that they would slow
the speech down so we do not feel like its the end of one of those radio
commercials with terms and conditions garbled at huge speeds!
I also note this thread has taken of, but all I was really tiring to do was
to find out whether the work going on reflected the general need out there
or in fact reflected the need of the few with loud voices., and I don't mean
to make people annoyed by this comment. To me getting some other software
like Libra Office would be a better use of developer time than Braille, but
as I say, everyone will have an angle on priorities I guess.
Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Adriani Botez" <adriani.botez@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2017 1:19 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Braille, how many use it?


I used to have a braille disply during my studies and that was really nice
because I had to work with LateX for mathematical content. But also because
sometimes I just wanted to lean back and lern for exams without seating in
front of a machine. But now for my work I am much faster with a screen
reader and in fact I have discovered that I can learn much more in a short
time than I could with a braille display. It is because I use the speech
rate at a quite high level. But I would really be interested in a good
developed multi line braille disply, say like 16 lines or so. That could
display much more braile at once and could show up document structures or
even grafics. So I follow the developments in this sector hoping that there
will be a realistic solution for that anytime.


-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] Im Auftrag von Brian's
Mail list account via Groups.Io
Gesendet: Dienstag, 3. Oktober 2017 13:42
An: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Betreff: [nvda] Braille, how many use it?

Tis is just a question. I see a lot of work going on on the development
front to make these displays and the entering of the code more intuitive and
better.
I just wondered how many folk here can afford to use a Braille display on
their machines? Since the promised Orbit seems to be having issues getting
out of the factory, most of the other choices out there need a second
mortgage to buy them!

Just musing that was all.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
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Re: Braille, how many use it?

Steve Nutt
 

Hi,

It's noisy and has no cursor routing keys, so I wouldn't personally entertain it.

All the best

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Shaun Everiss
Sent: 03 October 2017 20:34
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Braille, how many use it?

No and now there has been a user that is selling it because they said it was not for them.

I was going to buy this but it seems to use a simple os, and I am unsure what to do about that.

I was thinking like something like the l braille though to be honest what I'd like would be a braille keyboard and or querty keyboard and a braille screen you could put on to any computer that could have a ssd in it.

You can get up to 1tb drives with 256-500 being all a standard user would need.

Ofcause thats probably going to sort of cost as much as a good computer but even though that may be expensive.

The future is in mainstream oses or as extra hardware for those.

Using a pc after using my limited keynote in dos and other braille systems it opened my eyes to what I was missing software wise.

The issue I see with a lot of blind accessible special hardware is you can only run software that is accessible.

And while thats fine for the average user if like me you are not and I bet a lot of us are not, we want to fiddle about with our systems, destroy them, screw ourselves over and be free.

Blindy spaciffic devices don't allow us to be free.

Because we are helpless and they need to hold our blind hands.

Thats fine to a point, but you will eventually exhaust the limited featureset and once thats done you may wander is that all.

Its true you can do some gaming, email, and other things but you can't just load a general windows program or whatever on a standard old style device.

At the time I did training with my now dead keynote 18, you got told the basics, the general wordprocessing app, the dos reader, and the extra programs to use for braille translation and wordperfect and that was it.

Fortunately there was dos, I was able to fiddle but I do believe some devices are more restricted than that.

Unless you had an eurika that was which was in unix and could program it and or the bns or something it was still restricted.

If we hope to move forward as a people then we need to make devices that are mainstreamed or at least be able to connect to mainstream tech like a laptop for extra functions.




On 4/10/2017 2:43 a.m., Adriani Botez wrote:
How about orbit reader? It is the cheapest braille display. Did they
manage to start shipping?


-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] Im Auftrag von
Antony Stone
Gesendet: Dienstag, 3. Oktober 2017 15:28
An: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Betreff: Re: [nvda] Braille, how many use it?

Braille displays are indeed very expensive to buy new, but they remain
manufactured and available because the majority of purchases are by
employers or government education departments who are required to
provide funding for disabled people under many countries' anti-discrimination laws.

That said, I have had good success buying second-hand displays on
eBay, because no employer or education funder will consider supplying
a second-hand device, but they can still be passed on in a good
working condition after someone leaves their job or comes to the end
of their training.

I do wish lower-cost new Braille displays were available, but so long
as the majority of the customers are organisations which can afford
them and don't question the price, they will continue to pay current
prices for them in just the same way as they pay for Jaws licences,
instead of funding the development of NVDA and then getting as many
copies as they like for free afterwards.


Antony.

On Tuesday 03 October 2017 at 15:14:41, Damien Sykes-Lindley wrote:

Hi,
Braille displays are super expensive. So expensive, in fact, that I'm
surprised they're still on the market!
As for me, very naughty me, especially being total, I haven't touched
Braille in ten years. Consequently, I've forgotten most of it! I'm a
speech user all the way.
Cheers.
Damien.
-----Original Message-----
From: Steve Nutt
Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2017 2:04 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Braille, how many use it?

Hi,

I wouldn't be without Braille personally. You can only tell so much
with speech, unless you turn on formatting and all that jazz.

All the best

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: 03 October 2017 12:42
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Braille, how many use it?

Tis is just a question. I see a lot of work going on on the
development front to make these displays and the entering of the code
more intuitive and better.
I just wondered how many folk here can afford to use a Braille
display on their machines? Since the promised Orbit seems to be
having issues getting out of the factory, most of the other choices
out there need a second mortgage to buy them!

Just musing that was all.
Brian
--
"Life is just a lot better if you feel you're having 10 [small] wins a
day rather than a [big] win every 10 years or so."

- Chris Hadfield, former skiing (and ski racing) instructor

Please reply to the list;
please
*don't* CC me.








Re: Braille, how many use it?

Steve Nutt
 

Hi,

Actually it must be relevant, because I saw all the misspellings in this message. I bet you didn't with speech <Smile>.

All the best

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Shaun Everiss
Sent: 03 October 2017 20:22
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Braille, how many use it?

Well I have a boss I do work for in psycology and he worries about braille.

The fact is, well there are 3 facts.

THe major one ofcause well 2 is.

1. while we can print braille on paper bulky as it is easy enough, we still need the old style analog pins and the like to drive the dots and such.

Eventually something needs to be done.

The other fact is sad but true.

Braille is so yesteryear.

You don't need braille at all, in fact the blind never need braille as long as they have speech and power for devices.

If your deff or loose power for things for a long period its another matter.

Braille books are bulky in paper form.

I do read braille and have been using it since school as well as reading the odd book from time to time.

But braille isn't much use to me anymore.

If we got things working in a modernised environment, fine.

But we need to do it quickly else braille will go the way of the 386 computer, windows xp, win98, and a lot of the manual equipment of yesteryear.

Its not relivent in todays world allready.

If it became as good as say well updated to todays standards for output and input then maybe its got a chance.




On 4/10/2017 2:14 a.m., Damien Sykes-Lindley wrote:
Hi,
Braille displays are super expensive. So expensive, in fact, that I'm
surprised they're still on the market!
As for me, very naughty me, especially being total, I haven't touched
Braille in ten years. Consequently, I've forgotten most of it! I'm a
speech user all the way.
Cheers.
Damien.
-----Original Message----- From: Steve Nutt
Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2017 2:04 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Braille, how many use it?

Hi,

I wouldn't be without Braille personally. You can only tell so much with
speech, unless you turn on formatting and all that jazz.

All the best

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
Brian's
Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: 03 October 2017 12:42
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Braille, how many use it?

Tis is just a question. I see a lot of work going on on the development
front to make these displays and the entering of the code more
intuitive and
better.
I just wondered how many folk here can afford to use a Braille display on
their machines? Since the promised Orbit seems to be having issues
getting
out of the factory, most of the other choices out there need a second
mortgage to buy them!

Just musing that was all.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
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Re: Rumola

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

I really cannot work out why web sites still use these, even sighted people struggle and often the audio version suggests it as a 'challenge' which logging in and signing up should not be. Add to that that often when you are allowed in you find the spammers have penetrated it anyway making the whole thing slightly stupid.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Damien Sykes-Lindley" <damien@dcpendleton.plus.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2017 5:04 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Rumola


Hi,
A lot of CAPTCHA solving software does seem to have disappeared. I used to use one called WebVisum, but that also seems to have disintegrated into nothingness.
The only one now, which I use with varying levels of success, is CAPTCHABeGone. Even then, sometimes I have to submit a CAPTCHA 2 or 3 times (on a good day) to get a result.
Cheers.
Damien.
-----Original Message-----
From: Nevzat Adil
Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2017 4:59 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Rumola

Hi everyone,
Do any of you use Rumola, the addon to Firefox that automatically
reads the captia?
I noticed today that mine no longer works.
I went to rumola.com and tried to sign into my account and see if I
can reactivate but that did not work, either.
It has not been updated since 2014 according to their website.
It was a nice little helpful software when encountering captias.
I would appreciate any comments.
Nevzat





Re: Braille, how many use it?

Steve Nutt
 

It’s not bad, I believe it’s based around BRLTTY isn’t it?

 

All the best

 

Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Sarah k Alawami
Sent: 03 October 2017 19:06
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Braille, how many use it?

 

I don't have a braille display to set up, but how is NVDA with braille coming along anyway? I heard it was quite good.



On Oct 3, 2017, at 10:37 AM, Moty Azrad <motiaz@...> wrote:

 

Hi,

I must say that Braille is very very important for me and for everyone who
reads Braille books or other material.
Don't forget blind users that have hearing lost and they must use Braille.
When I read another language, like English that is not my mother tongue - I
enjoy and understand what I read with Braille and I can see the spelling of
each word because this point, is very important for me.
So, I say thanks for NVDA developments that continue to improve support for
the Braille users.

Thanks

moti azrad

-----Original Message-----
From: 
nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Damien
Sykes-Lindley
Sent: Tuesday, October 3, 2017 16:15
To: 
nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Braille, how many use it?

Hi,
Braille displays are super expensive. So expensive, in fact, that I'm
surprised they're still on the market!
As for me, very naughty me, especially being total, I haven't touched
Braille in ten years. Consequently, I've forgotten most of it! I'm a speech
user all the way.
Cheers.
Damien.
-----Original Message-----
From: Steve Nutt
Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2017 2:04 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Braille, how many use it?

Hi,

I wouldn't be without Braille personally.  You can only tell so much with
speech, unless you turn on formatting and all that jazz.

All the best

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian's
Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: 03 October 2017 12:42
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Braille, how many use it?

Tis is just a question. I see a lot of work going on on the development
front to make these displays and the entering of the code more intuitive and
better.
I just wondered how many folk here can afford to use a Braille display on
their machines? Since the promised Orbit seems to be having issues getting
out  of the factory, most of the other choices out there need a second
mortgage to buy them!

Just musing that was all.
Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.















 


Re: Braille, how many use it?

Steve Nutt
 

Hi,

Not only that, Gene's 300 pages per month is actually not that much. I used
to read a Braille book a day when I was on summer holidays. So it's
application.

I can also read Braille extremely fast and I believe that anyone especially
if they start learning early, can read fast with a little application.

All the best

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Moty
Azrad
Sent: 03 October 2017 18:38
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Braille, how many use it?

Hi,

I must say that Braille is very very important for me and for everyone who
reads Braille books or other material.
Don't forget blind users that have hearing lost and they must use Braille.
When I read another language, like English that is not my mother tongue - I
enjoy and understand what I read with Braille and I can see the spelling of
each word because this point, is very important for me.
So, I say thanks for NVDA developments that continue to improve support for
the Braille users.

Thanks

moti azrad

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Damien
Sykes-Lindley
Sent: Tuesday, October 3, 2017 16:15
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Braille, how many use it?

Hi,
Braille displays are super expensive. So expensive, in fact, that I'm
surprised they're still on the market!
As for me, very naughty me, especially being total, I haven't touched
Braille in ten years. Consequently, I've forgotten most of it! I'm a speech
user all the way.
Cheers.
Damien.
-----Original Message-----
From: Steve Nutt
Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2017 2:04 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Braille, how many use it?

Hi,

I wouldn't be without Braille personally. You can only tell so much with
speech, unless you turn on formatting and all that jazz.

All the best

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian's
Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: 03 October 2017 12:42
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Braille, how many use it?

Tis is just a question. I see a lot of work going on on the development
front to make these displays and the entering of the code more intuitive and
better.
I just wondered how many folk here can afford to use a Braille display on
their machines? Since the promised Orbit seems to be having issues getting
out of the factory, most of the other choices out there need a second
mortgage to buy them!

Just musing that was all.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.


Re: bug in browsemode

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

Is this the new 64 bit version of Firefox by any chance?
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Martin Thomas Swaton" <list@mtsonline.at>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2017 4:38 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] bug in browsemode


Hi once more


no I found out that there not even have to be special characters in the
non-linked-textblock and nvda still does ignore/skip some blocks.


currently I had a conversation that looked like that:


link name1

textline1

Just now
link name2

haha
Just nowSent from Web
link name1

textline2


where textline 1 and 2 are read by pressing "n" and the "haha" block is
simply ignored allthough it is placed between two link lines.

I think this is not as expected.

cheers
Martin

Am 03.10.2017 um 00:19 schrieb Martin Thomas Swaton:



Am 03.10.2017 um 00:04 schrieb Quentin Christensen:
Just to clarify, is it treating the smiley emoticon as a graphc (and
therefore the text before is one nonlinked text element, then the
graphic element, then another nonlinked text element)?
no, it really is just text.
but I am not sure how consistent this behaves.

had the same with "hm..."
but only further down in the thread, when it got up in the thread it
was recognized as text (non linked)

so there might be a second trigger, that I could not figure out until now.

so fact is, if there are some special characters (not grafical items,
just text) it may be handled as something else than "not linked text".


cheers
Martin


On Tue, Oct 3, 2017 at 7:14 AM, Gene <gsasner@ripco.com
<mailto:gsasner@ripco.com>> wrote:

Also, n should not do two separate things, as you are asking.
How does n know what you want? You often intentionally want to
use n to skip to the next block of nonlink text if you don't want
to hear the block you have used the command to skip to. You can
make a case that, if you have already started speak all, that n
should skip to the next nonlink text and resume reading. But
having n skip to the next nonlink text and then, when pressed
again, read that entire block, is a very bad idea. N does one
thing and should do one thing, skip to the next nonlink text.
Whether continuous reading occurs after you skip may be offered
as the behavior when speak all has been executed before using n.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
*From:* Martin Thomas Swaton <mailto:list@mtsonline.at>
*Sent:* Monday, October 02, 2017 2:27 PM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*Subject:* [nvda] bug in browsemode

Hi,


I guess I discovered a bug in the behaviour of nvda in the
browsemode.

using the shortcut "n" to jump to the next unlinked text on a
website
does not work correctly when there are special characters in a
text line.


steps to reproduce:

e.g. go to m.facebook website -> messages -> friend-name

to open a thread.


in this thread you can jump to the text you and your friend wrote


if you type "*smile*"

or similar on a line

this line will be ignored by "n" and you will jump directly to
the next
"normal" textline.


This should absolutely not be the case, as you miss normal text
because
of this bug.


a second problem with "n" is, that not the whole text block is
read on
this keypress - but the next "n" press jumps to the next block of
text
and does not read the rest of the current block

because of this second block you always only hear the first line
of a
textblock when using "n"

so you cannot read a text with this shortcut, you only get the dirst
line of every block and then have to use other reading shortcuts
to read
on, which does not make any sense.


hope this two bugs can be confirmed and hopefully be fixed


cheers

Martin








--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

Official NVDA Training modules and expert certification now
available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

www.nvaccess.org <http://www.nvaccess.org/>
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
Twitter: @NVAccess


Re: Braille, how many use it?

 

I do agree with you brian.

Having used a computer for ages now I'd struggle to carry the things round.

Even if you were not carefull, hit it on a chair, hit it on a door, oops there goes half a slider or knob paint, oops.

The only good thing was when the keys broke if you had a paperclip you could make a better durable one but thats about it.

On 4/10/2017 8:43 a.m., Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io wrote:
Of course the old Perkins machine were very good at making six strong fingers!

Grin.

Off course we used to have a printer and a lot of deaf people in the office as a result!
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Mendoza" <lowvisiontek@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2017 5:19 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Braille, how many use it?


Lucky of those who has a braille display, cause here it is very expensive and you need to buy it online or rather to pre-order to the selected store. So I simply used the ordinary keyboard.

Robert Mendoza

On 10/3/2017 5:41 AM, Adriani Botez wrote:
In Germany they are also bein paid by ministery of labor or by the health
insurance company. And very often is being individually judged if the person
gets the device paid or not. It depends on the time period since last
payment or on how well tested is the technical features of the device.


-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] Im Auftrag von Mallard
Gesendet: Dienstag, 3. Oktober 2017 14:35
An: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Betreff: Re: [nvda] Braille, how many use it?

I agree. Luckily, the National Health Service here in Italy gives us braille
displays, either totally paid by the National Health Service itself, or
partly - depending on the cost of the device.


I used an Optacon before the advent of braille displays, and still do, but
on paper and ereaders; no longer on a pc screen, due to uncomfortable
position of my workstation.


I couldn't live without braille! I switched to NVDA only once braille
support was introduced.

Ciao,

Ollie





Il 03/10/2017 13:41, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io ha scritto:
Tis is just a question. I see a lot of work going on on the
development front to make these displays and the entering of the code
more intuitive and better.
I just wondered how many folk here can afford to use a Braille display
on their machines? Since the promised Orbit seems to be having issues
getting out of the factory, most of the other choices out there need
a second mortgage to buy them!

Just musing that was all.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
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briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.











.


Re: Braille, how many use it?

 

I agree.

Speech is not the best but as long as braille continues to be as it now, speech will be the new literacy of the blind, braille is dead and will continue to be so till we do something about its output and imput period.

On 4/10/2017 8:40 a.m., Mohammadreza Rashad wrote:
Braille is the literacy of blind people. I know of blind
weblog/website owners that have terrible spelling errors in their
writings, just because they have learnt words by listening, not by
Braille.


Re: Braille, how many use it?

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

I have to say this as many of my blind friends would strangle me if I did not. People with Diabetes cannot read braille as their touch is often compromised. A friend has recently got a new phone with no actual button on the screen and its almost impossible to use, he says.
Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Adriani Botez" <adriani.botez@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2017 3:23 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Braille, how many use it?


It makes sense anyhow to learn braille and to maintain the ability to read it. We should stay independent. Think about what would happen if there is a massive earth quake in your area and you don't get internet or even electricity for weeks. You still need an alternative way to communicate with others, at least with other blind or visually impaired people by sending a telegram or a letter in braille.

At the same time, I wish to see kind of improvements on this alphabeth. I mean, are there any experiments including optimization of letter size or so? Maybe another type of braille which can be printed on thiner paper or kind of smaller points to win more place on a page? That would be actually amazing. I mean at least people who already learned braille could certainly adapt to smaller letters. There are abreviations though, but they are different from language to language which is quite annoying in my view, especially for new braillers.

Best
Adriani




-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] Im Auftrag von Damien Sykes-Lindley
Gesendet: Dienstag, 3. Oktober 2017 16:06
An: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Betreff: Re: [nvda] Braille, how many use it?

Hi,
I don't see anyone saying that we should give up braille for technology.
That seemed to happen naturally in my case because I had no need to read it, so I never did. Only recently when trying to play a game I realised just how screwed my braille skills actually are.
In fact, I totally agree that braille would be better in some areas of work, programming and large calculations being two such areas. On the other hand, try asking for a disability/assistive technology grant over here and see if you can break the record for the longest fight and largest number of letdowns... I've just about given up hope on both the government and the RNIB. Bleh.
Cheers.
Damien.
-----Original Message-----
From: Nevzat Adil
Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2017 2:29 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Braille, how many use it?

Braille is as important to a blind person as print is to someone who can see. I do not see any sighted person saying they should give up print because of technology. I am glad NVDA developers are working on making it braille friendly. The fact that braille displays are too expensive should not discourage learning braille as prices are bound to come down and many get those devices the government or private programs, anyway.

On 10/3/17, Robert Mendoza <lowvisiontek@gmail.com> wrote:
Lucky of those who has a braille display, cause here it is very
expensive and you need to buy it online or rather to pre-order to the
selected store. So I simply used the ordinary keyboard.

Robert Mendoza

On 10/3/2017 5:41 AM, Adriani Botez wrote:
In Germany they are also bein paid by ministery of labor or by the
health insurance company. And very often is being individually judged
if the person gets the device paid or not. It depends on the time
period since last payment or on how well tested is the technical
features of the device.


-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] Im Auftrag von
Mallard
Gesendet: Dienstag, 3. Oktober 2017 14:35
An: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Betreff: Re: [nvda] Braille, how many use it?

I agree. Luckily, the National Health Service here in Italy gives us
braille displays, either totally paid by the National Health Service
itself, or partly - depending on the cost of the device.


I used an Optacon before the advent of braille displays, and still
do, but on paper and ereaders; no longer on a pc screen, due to
uncomfortable position of my workstation.


I couldn't live without braille! I switched to NVDA only once braille
support was introduced.

Ciao,

Ollie





Il 03/10/2017 13:41, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io ha scritto:
Tis is just a question. I see a lot of work going on on the
development front to make these displays and the entering of the
code more intuitive and better.
I just wondered how many folk here can afford to use a Braille
display on their machines? Since the promised Orbit seems to be
having issues getting out of the factory, most of the other choices
out there need a second mortgage to buy them!

Just musing that was all.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.












Re: Braille, how many use it?

 

I agree.

What is worse here is that the disabled have to work.

In reality its submitting something to the government saying you are looking for work and are active when actually you are not.

Not because you can't but because there isn't any work to be had and all those agencies well forget it, is all I will say.

Its like when I get dvds here.

While I can watch some of them myself or with sighted assistance I need to crack the dvd, in order to get an audio described mp3 of the file to watch and or store myself or whatever.

If I am unlucky I can't so I manage to watch it once then I shelve it because its a chore to do.

For a sightling to watch it its easy.

I need to run my extraction program to see if I can hack it, then if I can hack it, thats 30 minutes pulling everything I want maybe more and 10 minutes sorting it and then if its not in little bits then I can listen to it and decide if I will keep it on a drive for later.

This isn't me doing that to rental videos either, I need to pirate my own dvds to watch them.

Something about access stinks.

I do think the publishers could do something about this, I mean they have the raw files description tracks, etc I'd pay for a service.

But its lets get rid of the pirates access be damned.

At least that is what I was like in 1995.

I am still like it now but all those new laws mean I need to be carefull.

I havn't brought a movie or watched a dvd myseklf in years now.

On 4/10/2017 8:40 a.m., Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io wrote:
Here you have to be in paid work before you get evaluated, but you cannot often get work without it so its that old catch 22 situation, and then they wonder why so many blind people do not have jobs.
I'm retired actually being 67 this year. I guess if I read Braille well then I'd want one but I learned late in life and its a lot harder to become proficient and I manly use it for labels these days.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
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----- Original Message ----- From: "Adriani Botez" <adriani.botez@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2017 1:41 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Braille, how many use it?


In Germany they are also bein paid by ministery of labor or by the health
insurance company. And very often is being individually judged if the person
gets the device paid or not. It depends on the time period since last
payment or on how well tested is the technical features of the device.


-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] Im Auftrag von Mallard
Gesendet: Dienstag, 3. Oktober 2017 14:35
An: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Betreff: Re: [nvda] Braille, how many use it?

I agree. Luckily, the National Health Service here in Italy gives us braille
displays, either totally paid by the National Health Service itself, or
partly - depending on the cost of the device.


I used an Optacon before the advent of braille displays, and still do, but
on paper and ereaders; no longer on a pc screen, due to uncomfortable
position of my workstation.


I couldn't live without braille! I switched to NVDA only once braille
support was introduced.

Ciao,

Ollie





Il 03/10/2017 13:41, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io ha scritto:
Tis is just a question. I see a lot of work going on on the
development front to make these displays and the entering of the code
more intuitive and better.
I just wondered how many folk here can afford to use a Braille display
on their machines? Since the promised Orbit seems to be having issues
getting out of the factory, most of the other choices out there need
a second mortgage to buy them!

Just musing that was all.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.












.


Re: NVDA Country Subgroups

Vlad Dragomir
 

Hi Florian,

Thank you for the message. I'm both french and romanian, I do have two passports. *smile*

More accurately, I should say I'm european, but I do speak the language if that's what you wanted to know. However, I lost contact with those I used to know in Bucharest, where I was born. Only keep in touch with family nowadays.

Best regards from Lyon,

Vlad.