Date   

Re: question

Gene
 

That's if you aren't using sticky keys.  If you are using sticky keys, the caps lock doesn't work that way.  You should press shift twice to lock it and have it work as though you had caps lock on.  Then if you want to turn it off, press it once.
 
I haven't checked to see what the caps lock key does if sticky keys are on and NVDA isn't using it as an NVDA key.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, August 19, 2017 6:54 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] question

Hi


You are probably aware that if the caps lock key is selected as a modifier key it has to be hit 2 times to turn caps lock on and two for off..


if it is selected as the modifier key then it would be that key and say the letter N to get into the preferences of nvda.


here unless i am writing some thing unless it is more than a letter i just use the shift key for just one letter and if i want all of them capitalized I might then put that key on to do it then turn it off.


Gene nz



On 20/08/2017 00:38, anthony borg wrote:

Hi list

Can someone help me to figure out this problem please?

On my laptop I use the sticky keys to be able to use the keyboard with one hand, but since I started to use the n v d a, I am meeting this problem. ?

Since I started to use the capslock as n v d a, now I can’t use it to write a capital letter, as usual, if any n v d a programmer can help me to solve this problem I would appreciate it very much.

Thanks in advance

Anthony



Re: question

Gene New Zealand <hurrikennyandopo@...>
 

Hi


You are probably aware that if the caps lock key is selected as a modifier key it has to be hit 2 times to turn caps lock on and two for off..


if it is selected as the modifier key then it would be that key and say the letter N to get into the preferences of nvda.


here unless i am writing some thing unless it is more than a letter i just use the shift key for just one letter and if i want all of them capitalized I might then put that key on to do it then turn it off.


Gene nz

 


On 20/08/2017 00:38, anthony borg wrote:

Hi list

Can someone help me to figure out this problem please?

On my laptop I use the sticky keys to be able to use the keyboard with one hand, but since I started to use the n v d a, I am meeting this problem. ?

Since I started to use the capslock as n v d a, now I can’t use it to write a capital letter, as usual, if any n v d a programmer can help me to solve this problem I would appreciate it very much.

Thanks in advance

Anthony



Request for comments: an outline of a complete course on NVDA internals and code contributions

 

Hi everyone,

 

Those of you on the users list may have heard about a subgroup over there that aims to teach people how to contribute code to NVDA. After going over some membership intros and looking at skill sets represented, I came up with a rough outline or a six to twelve month course on NVDA code contributions and internals. Obviously most of the course content will require working knowledge of Python, but for those who lack this, I’ve included a one unit outline on Python.

 

Outline:

 

  • Title: So you want to improve NVDA with code contributions?
  • Instructor: one or more NVDA experts and developers, along with several Python users as tutors
  • Purpose: the overall purpose of this course is to equip new developers with knowledge required to provide code contributions to NVDA project. Topics covered include a short review of Python, running NVDA from source code, source code layout and overall architecture, behind the scenes tour of features and commands, as well as things required when contributing code such as identifying, designing, coding, debugging, testing, submitting, maintaining, and explaining new features, changes and bug fixes.
  • Goals: have a working knowledge of Python so students can use it in NVDA and other projects; learn the overall purpose and architecture of NVDA; have knowledge of workings of features and commands through reading, understanding and writing source code; learn tips for becoming successful NVDA code contributors who serves the community and improves NVDA; develop critical problem solving and thinking skills required in today’s software engineering projects including that of NVDA.

 

Course outline:

 

Unit 0: Review of Python

  1. Python is a general-purpose programming language
  2. Downloading and using Python
  3. Explain variables, how to import useful modules, conditionals and loops
  4. Learn how to define functions.
  5. Design classes and objects
  6. Learn to interact with lists, dictionaries, sets, tuples and other objects of interest
  7. Use modules and objects provided by Python to solve various problems
  8. Exercise: random walk on a treadmill
  9. Expected duration: four to six months

 

Skills test and preview 0: come up with solutions to two other problems via Python, write a design for an add-on, or write about how a student would solve an NVDA issue on GitHub.

 

Unit 1: Basics and the big picture

  1. What screen readers are and are not
  2. A portrait of operations of a screen reader
  3. A brief history of NVDA
  4. Obtaining NVDA source code
  5. Compiling NVDA’s source code with dependencies
  6. Running NVDA from source for the first time
  7. Example of code contribution: command to restart NVDA with no prompts
  8. Expected duration: one month

 

Skills test and preview 1: explain in your own words how you would teach your friend to download NVDA source code.

 

Unit 2: NVDA at a glance

  1. Features overview
  2. Source code layout
  3. Overall architecture
  4. Importance of objects, events, and modules
  5. Extensibility through classes
  6. Why accessibility API’s matter
  7. Exercise: what is the code responsible for announcing speech via beeps?
  8. Example of code contribution: Popping up browse mode window for some NVDA messages
  9. Expected duration: two months

 

Skills test and preview 2: in your own words, describe ui.message function.

 

Unit 3: feature and command internals 1

  1. Global commands
  2. Focus, caret, system cursor
  3. Object navigation, properties, developer information and object hierarchy
  4. Accessibility API’s
  5. Review cursor and text infos
  6. Keyboard, mouse, and touchscreen
  7. Basics of browse mode
  8. Exercise: explain how NvDA+T command works to a new user
  9. Example of code contribution: indentation announcement by tones
  10. Expected duration: two to three months

 

Skills test and preview 3: in your own words, describe either one property of a navigator object or how a first letter navigation command works in browse mode.

 

Unit 4: Feature and command internals 2

  1. App modules, global plugins and add-ons
  2. Speech, braille, and tones
  3. Synthesizers and braille displays
  4. Math presentation layer and content recognition framework
  5. NVDA dialogs, configuration management, and managing add-ons
  6. Exercise: track down bugs in speech synthesizers
  7. Example of code contribution: Unicode braille output
  8. Expected duration: two months

 

Skills test and preview 4: in your own words, define what a speech synthesizer driver is.

 

Unit 5: Code contributions

  1. Identifying issues and suggestions
  2. Designing a problem and its solution(s)
  3. Coding a solution
  4. Debugging and testing solutions
  5. Effective use of log viewer and Python Console
  6. Submitting, maintaining, and explaining a feature, a change, or a bug fix
  7. Exercise: not all warnings from the log are fatal
  8. Example of code contribution: tab completion in Python Console
  9. Expected duration: two to three months

 

Skills test and preview 5: write a solution for a minor issue on GitHub or a small add-on that uses any concept from previous units.

 

Unit 6: Beyond code contributions

  1. Translations
  2. Documentation
  3. Keep in touch with users and others in the community
  4. Researching new ideas alone or in groups
  5. Working on collaborative projects
  6. Apply skills from NVDA to other projects
  7. Exercise: write an article explaining inner workings of a community add-on
  8. Example of code contribution: Liblouis project
  9. Expected duration: one month

 

Unit 7 (advanced): thinking outside of NVDA

  1. Windows API
  2. Python libraries
  3. Dependency checks
  4. Using Component Object Model
  5. Using advanced features of accessibility API’s
  6. Adding new math presentation layers and content recognition frameworks
  7. Troubleshooting braille input and output
  8. Engaging with the wider python and programming communities
  9. Ethical issues in code contributions
  10. Things to think about when leading or working on an international software project

 

Final skills test:

  1. From a set of problems dealing with Python, write solutions for two and provide an explanation for one of them.
  2. Write an NVDA add-on that utilizes at least two concepts described in one or more units.
  3. For a major NVDA GitHub issue, identify, design, code, debug, test, submit, maintain, and explain a solution.

 

I expect the minimum time to complete this course would be six months (excluding Python intros and advanced topics), with most people taking up to a year to master the concepts above and become comfortable while providing basic code contributions. The Python version to be employed will be a mixture of 2.7 and 3.6.

 

Comments are appreciated.

Cheers,

Joseph


Re: Doing Google Searches

Gene
 

Such generalizations are meaningless.  there is information that lists can provide more efficiently than googling something.  An example is a command people ask about in Microsoft Word that they accidently activate that causes Word to show, and the screen-reader to read all sorts of unwanted material such as to announce every paragraph marker.  It was difficult and time consuming for me to find the command through a search.  There are other things, such as when someone may use a term or ask what a program is or something else of interest that is information and not blindness specific, that may be easily found by searching for it.  Note carefully that I'm not saying people shouldn't ask.  I'm simply pointing out that what is being searched for has a good deal to do with how quickly and easily information can be found compared to asking on a list. 
 
If someone said, for example, I really like my blue tooth headphones and I didn't know what blue tooth is, I could get a good overview by doing a search for blue tooth wikipedia and then reading the introductory paragraph before the main article starts.  Wikipedia has such introductory paragraphs for all articles as a matter of policy, as far as I know.  Again, I'm not saying people shouldn't  ask what blue tooth is on the list.  I'm discussing what can easily be found and what may not be.  And this goes back to my message yesterday about how a lot of blind people are not taking good advantage of the enormous amount of information online, the first time in history that we have access to anywhere near the amount of information sighted people do.
 
People are so sensative about this issue that I seldom tell people to google something because so many people are offended.  But if you look at it logically, someone politely asking someone to Google something could be seen as a way to increase peoples' computer skills or encourage them to develop more confidence in their abilities by encouraging them to try things.  And it may encourage discussion that will help people be more confident and skilled computer users.
 
For example, in your post, you talk about how long you have to spend down arrowing to find something.  I don't know specifically enough what you are referring to.  I can say that there are ways to find information quickly on a web page.  If I want to find information, I might use the find command and search the page for a word I expect to be used in a relevant part of the page.  I might move by headings.  I might skim a bit of each paragraph.  There may be other ways I haven't thought of but discussing the question may give you ideas that will make looking for information far more efficient for you and it may make your Internet use in general more efficient and productive.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
From: brian
Sent: Saturday, August 19, 2017 4:43 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Doing Google Searches

    I agree that just telling somone to just google that is very harch.  You can't always find what you are looking forand if you do you will have take a very long time down arrowing to find what you want.  The sighted can just look at their screens and see what they want but we can't.  People who tell somone on lists to just google it are the ones who are lazy they don't want to help and thats what email lists are for.  If you can't ask for help or ask a question with out getting critisized then why even have email list att and why are people even on list in the first place?   Maybe that person has lready has googled it but they could not find what they were looking for.  This even does happen to the sighted but because we are blind we are just not soposed to ask for help that seems to be a great sin in the blind community asking for help because we are soposed to be super independent.  Some people might need more training and we are all not at the same leavel of independence as others are and neither were they either.  It's often easier and faster to post a question and ask for help on an email list than it is to  just google it.  You will also get better results because the answers that you get come from other people who have found a sultion to your problem.  I am very greatful and very thankful for all of the help that I have received from people on lists and if I can help I will do so.

Brian Sackrider


On 8/18/2017 11:02 PM, Andy wrote:
This issue comes up from time to time, mostly on blind related lists. Interestingly, when among sighted people who have a tech question from time to time, usually if one knows the answer, they just give it. why have these lists at all if one can't feel comfortable asking a question? Now, if the same person asks questions repeatedly, and asks the same question over and over again, it may be appropriate to refer him or her to a resource, or advise that they may want to seek training, but i think that telling someone to "Google it" when they occasionally ask a question is rather harsh.
 
Andy
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, August 18, 2017 4:47 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Doing Google Searches

Most of us including myself are lazy. Ok, I'll google for something but if I just can't find the answer or the pages are 10 years old (this did happen to me a few times) I will ask on a list and point to the steps I took to troubleshoot the issue, and the steps I tool to try and figure out on my own how to do what ever it is I'm trying to do with nvda, narrator, voiceover, talkback etc.

Take care
On Aug 18, 2017, at 12:28 PM, Andre Fisher <fishersmails123@...> wrote:

Hi.
A quick query. Lately, I have realized that most persons subscribed to this list, rather than going to Google or a search engine of their choice, seek to ask questions here prior to doing this type of research. I’d seriously like to know why, as I find this practice to be counterproductive. Why do I say this? Because sometimes, the responses that are given are incorrect. Why don’t persons read the NVDA User Guide, for example. It is well detailed. Could persons explain this to me?



Re: Doing Google Searches

brian <sackriderbrian45@...>
 

    I agree that just telling somone to just google that is very harch.  You can't always find what you are looking forand if you do you will have take a very long time down arrowing to find what you want.  The sighted can just look at their screens and see what they want but we can't.  People who tell somone on lists to just google it are the ones who are lazy they don't want to help and thats what email lists are for.  If you can't ask for help or ask a question with out getting critisized then why even have email list att and why are people even on list in the first place?   Maybe that person has lready has googled it but they could not find what they were looking for.  This even does happen to the sighted but because we are blind we are just not soposed to ask for help that seems to be a great sin in the blind community asking for help because we are soposed to be super independent.  Some people might need more training and we are all not at the same leavel of independence as others are and neither were they either.  It's often easier and faster to post a question and ask for help on an email list than it is to  just google it.  You will also get better results because the answers that you get come from other people who have found a sultion to your problem.  I am very greatful and very thankful for all of the help that I have received from people on lists and if I can help I will do so.

Brian Sackrider


On 8/18/2017 11:02 PM, Andy wrote:
This issue comes up from time to time, mostly on blind related lists. Interestingly, when among sighted people who have a tech question from time to time, usually if one knows the answer, they just give it. why have these lists at all if one can't feel comfortable asking a question? Now, if the same person asks questions repeatedly, and asks the same question over and over again, it may be appropriate to refer him or her to a resource, or advise that they may want to seek training, but i think that telling someone to "Google it" when they occasionally ask a question is rather harsh.
 
Andy
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, August 18, 2017 4:47 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Doing Google Searches

Most of us including myself are lazy. Ok, I'll google for something but if I just can't find the answer or the pages are 10 years old (this did happen to me a few times) I will ask on a list and point to the steps I took to troubleshoot the issue, and the steps I tool to try and figure out on my own how to do what ever it is I'm trying to do with nvda, narrator, voiceover, talkback etc.

Take care
On Aug 18, 2017, at 12:28 PM, Andre Fisher <fishersmails123@...> wrote:

Hi.
A quick query. Lately, I have realized that most persons subscribed to this list, rather than going to Google or a search engine of their choice, seek to ask questions here prior to doing this type of research. I’d seriously like to know why, as I find this practice to be counterproductive. Why do I say this? Because sometimes, the responses that are given are incorrect. Why don’t persons read the NVDA User Guide, for example. It is well detailed. Could persons explain this to me?



Re: advcash.com

Gene
 

That might be able to be done but I'm not sure how it would be done.  You can't be in browse mode, it would seem to me.  I don't know if you can do it from the keyboard in forms mode.  Perhaps some sort of new means would have to be added to the screen-reader.  This may be a similar limitation to not being able to drag and drop on Internet sites.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
From: mattias
Sent: Saturday, August 19, 2017 3:36 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] advcash.com

Yes what should i say

Are it not time for nvda to be able to handle modern websites

e.g with sliders

from the actual webpage

” Drag the slider to the right”

 

Skickades från E-post för Windows 10

 

Från: Sarah k Alawami
Skickat: den 19 augusti 2017 20:31
Till: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Ämne: Re: [nvda] advcash.com

 

Have you contacted the developers to make that point? Nvda can't and will never be able to help you there.

 

Good luck.

On Aug 19, 2017, at 5:08 AM, mattias <mjonsson1986@...> wrote:

 

Good luck to register on this site

You have to draw a slide in order to register

 

Skickades från E-post för Windows 10

 

 

 


Re: advcash.com

mattias
 

Yes what should i say

Are it not time for nvda to be able to handle modern websites

e.g with sliders

from the actual webpage

” Drag the slider to the right”

 

Skickades från E-post för Windows 10

 

Från: Sarah k Alawami
Skickat: den 19 augusti 2017 20:31
Till: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Ämne: Re: [nvda] advcash.com

 

Have you contacted the developers to make that point? Nvda can't and will never be able to help you there.

 

Good luck.

On Aug 19, 2017, at 5:08 AM, mattias <mjonsson1986@...> wrote:

 

Good luck to register on this site

You have to draw a slide in order to register

 

Skickades från E-post för Windows 10

 

 

 


giving keyboard commands from a braille display?

Aman Singer
 

Hi all,

 

                I am using a VarioUltra 20 with NVDA 2017.3RC1 on Windows 7 X64. I can’t seem to give single key commands to applications using the braille display. Just for example, if I am in Winamp 5.63 and press dots 1-4, the letter c, on the braille display, Winamp does not pause. However, when I press the letter c on the physical keyboard, Winamp pauses as expected. Note that this seems not to be a problem in, for example, list views, but other media programs like VLC also have the issue. This isn’t a huge problem, it can easily be worked around, but it would be nice to have it solved if anyone has any ideas.

 

Aman

              


Re: advcash.com

Sarah k Alawami
 

Have you contacted the developers to make that point? Nvda can't and will never be able to help you there.

Good luck.

On Aug 19, 2017, at 5:08 AM, mattias <mjonsson1986@...> wrote:

Good luck to register on this site
You have to draw a slide in order to register
 
Skickades från E-post för Windows 10
 


Re: unattended formatting solutions?

Sarah k Alawami
 

In doing a quick google search I'm not sure if this is what you are looking for but here you go. I have no clue if this will be accessible or not as I have my flash drive that origin gave me for my pc.


Good luck.

On Aug 19, 2017, at 9:12 AM, Robert Kingett <kingettr@...> wrote:

Is there an unatended? ISO image or similar out there that will format all particians and install windows 7 or similar?





Re: Doing Google Searches

Rosemarie Chavarria
 

I have a friend who has a memory problem. She got this program called CDesk and was having a hard time trying to learn it. To make a long story short, she had a sighted teacher who was trying to teach it to her and he wasn't very patient with her. He told her then rehab counselor that she wasn't even trying so the counselor closed her case and that was very unfair. I installed the trial version of CDesk and played with it a bit. After learning the basics of it, I was able to help my friend learn it. Now she's doing great with it. She said learning jaws was very difficult for her but CDesk is pretty easy to use.

 

Rosemarie

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Sarah k Alawami
Sent: Saturday, August 19, 2017 10:23 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Doing Google Searches

 

Well also don't forget. Some of us have memory issues. I do thanks to an accident. I have to read a manual, or if I can't digest what I just read I will ask and have someone walk me through what I need to do over and over and over again until I can do what ever it is.

 

One example speaking of nvda was the object navigation. I had a friend who knows my mental process go through the nvda object nav keys with me for about an hour until I got it as reading the manual for me that day was not going to work. I'm still learning nvda's object nav keys but I think I'm finally getting it by the way.

 

So for me that day googling would not have worked as I was having one of my not so good days.

 

Take care all.

On Aug 19, 2017, at 10:13 AM, Lino Morales <linomorales001@...> wrote:

 

I agree with you ANdy That's why if its not on here alreay a wiki for NVDA related issues.

 

On 8/18/2017 11:02 PM, Andy wrote:

This issue comes up from time to time, mostly on blind related lists. Interestingly, when among sighted people who have a tech question from time to time, usually if one knows the answer, they just give it. why have these lists at all if one can't feel comfortable asking a question? Now, if the same person asks questions repeatedly, and asks the same question over and over again, it may be appropriate to refer him or her to a resource, or advise that they may want to seek training, but i think that telling someone to "Google it" when they occasionally ask a question is rather harsh.

 

Andy

 

----- Original Message ----- 

Sent: Friday, August 18, 2017 4:47 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Doing Google Searches

 

Most of us including myself are lazy. Ok, I'll google for something but if I just can't find the answer or the pages are 10 years old (this did happen to me a few times) I will ask on a list and point to the steps I took to troubleshoot the issue, and the steps I tool to try and figure out on my own how to do what ever it is I'm trying to do with nvda, narrator, voiceover, talkback etc.

 

Take care

On Aug 18, 2017, at 12:28 PM, Andre Fisher <fishersmails123@...> wrote:

 

Hi.

A quick query. Lately, I have realized that most persons subscribed to this list, rather than going to Google or a search engine of their choice, seek to ask questions here prior to doing this type of research. I’d seriously like to know why, as I find this practice to be counterproductive. Why do I say this? Because sometimes, the responses that are given are incorrect. Why don’t persons read the NVDA User Guide, for example. It is well detailed. Could persons explain this to me?

 

 

 


Re: Doing Google Searches

 

On Sat, Aug 19, 2017 at 10:30 am, Sarah k Alawami wrote:
Some of us have memory issues. I do thanks to an accident.
And you've just done what you should do, identify that issue so that others can actually make reasonable accommodations for it.

I spent six years as the cognitive rehabilitation therapist in a brain injury services program.  One of the first things I tried to instill was the necessity for self-advocacy and self-identification of issues and requesting reasonable accommodations where needed.   As you well know, the world at large is highly unlikely to know any of these things just by looking at you and, as a result, may treat you badly and inappropriately if they're attributing something you do (or don't do) as though you were the random person on the street.

It's been my general observation that the majority of folks, but certainly not all, are more than willing to make accommodations if they know they need to make them.  If they don't then they will make what would be reasonable presumptions about someone else but that don't apply to you due to special circumstances.   It's impossible for any of us to function in the larger world if we don't make presumptions, constantly, because figuring everything out from scratch is grossly inefficient.
 
--
Brian  Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1703, Build 15063  (dot level on request - it changes too often to keep in signature)

     The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement.  But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth.

            Niels Bohr

 

 


Re: Doing Google Searches

Rosemarie Chavarria
 

Hi, Sarah,

 

Wow, that's awful you got kicked off of a list for suggesting that that the person listen to a podcast because you couldn't explain what that person wanted to do. It sounds like those moderators were on a power trip.

 

Rosemarie

 

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Sarah k Alawami
Sent: Friday, August 18, 2017 11:01 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Doing Google Searches

 

I actually got kicked off a list for telling someone to listen to x y and z's podcast on a subject. They wanted me to write the answer down in text. Um? Huh?  It was not this list, it was a different one I had ben  on for about 7 years. The moderators of that list basically told me off list I was being lazy. I don't think so as at the time this podcaster did a better job then I at explaining how to do the steps the person asking the question had. If all of this what I said  makes sense, that's good. Lol.

On Aug 18, 2017, at 10:00 PM, Melissa Jean <Melissa.J.Hammitt@...> wrote:

 

I'm not sure what other   people were thinking with their responses, but I know for certain that mine was not meant to be rude in anyway. I know for me, speaking from personal experience, listing what I do to find answers was supposed to be helpful in someway. I did not really see anywhere where someone said people who don't Google first shouldn't   be asking questions… Or anything along those lines. So, I don't really get this whole jump on the bandwagon and attacked people who ask the question "why don't people Google? " 

Just from observing over the years it seems that the people who jump on the people asking "why don't people google? "Are worse and the people who actually to ask why people don't do it a certain way…

Melissa

Sent from my iPhone


On Aug 18, 2017, at 11:35 PM, Arlene <nedster66@...> wrote:

Preach it Andy. I thought that’s what this list is for. If someone can’t find whatever it is using google. Then he she should be able to ask for any kind of help!

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Rosemarie Chavarria
Sent: August-18-17 9:16 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Doing Google Searches

 

Amen, Andy. I couldn't agree more. I almost left this list because I felt that a question wasn't being answered. If a person has tried searching for the answer on google or another search engine and can't find the answer, then he should be able to ask a question. After all, isn't that what this list is about--helping one another when we get stuck or have trouble finding an answer? 

 

Rosemarie 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Andy
Sent: Friday, August 18, 2017 8:02 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Doing Google Searches

 

This issue comes up from time to time, mostly on blind related lists. Interestingly, when among sighted people who have a tech question from time to time, usually if one knows the answer, they just give it. why have these lists at all if one can't feel comfortable asking a question? Now, if the same person asks questions repeatedly, and asks the same question over and over again, it may be appropriate to refer him or her to a resource, or advise that they may want to seek training, but i think that telling someone to "Google it" when they occasionally ask a question is rather harsh.

 

Andy

 

----- Original Message ----- 

Sent: Friday, August 18, 2017 4:47 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Doing Google Searches

 

Most of us including myself are lazy. Ok, I'll google for something but if I just can't find the answer or the pages are 10 years old (this did happen to me a few times) I will ask on a list and point to the steps I took to troubleshoot the issue, and the steps I tool to try and figure out on my own how to do what ever it is I'm trying to do with nvda, narrator, voiceover, talkback etc. 

 

Take care

On Aug 18, 2017, at 12:28 PM, Andre Fisher <fishersmails123@...> wrote:

 

Hi.

A quick query. Lately, I have realized that most persons subscribed to this list, rather than going to Google or a search engine of their choice, seek to ask questions here prior to doing this type of research. I’d seriously like to know why, as I find this practice to be counterproductive. Why do I say this? Because sometimes, the responses that are given are incorrect. Why don’t persons read the NVDA User Guide, for example. It is well detailed. Could persons explain this to me?

 

 


Re: Doing Google Searches

Sarah k Alawami
 

Well also don't forget. Some of us have memory issues. I do thanks to an accident. I have to read a manual, or if I can't digest what I just read I will ask and have someone walk me through what I need to do over and over and over again until I can do what ever it is.

One example speaking of nvda was the object navigation. I had a friend who knows my mental process go through the nvda object nav keys with me for about an hour until I got it as reading the manual for me that day was not going to work. I'm still learning nvda's object nav keys but I think I'm finally getting it by the way.

So for me that day googling would not have worked as I was having one of my not so good days.

Take care all.

On Aug 19, 2017, at 10:13 AM, Lino Morales <linomorales001@...> wrote:

I agree with you ANdy That's why if its not on here alreay a wiki for NVDA related issues.


On 8/18/2017 11:02 PM, Andy wrote:
This issue comes up from time to time, mostly on blind related lists. Interestingly, when among sighted people who have a tech question from time to time, usually if one knows the answer, they just give it. why have these lists at all if one can't feel comfortable asking a question? Now, if the same person asks questions repeatedly, and asks the same question over and over again, it may be appropriate to refer him or her to a resource, or advise that they may want to seek training, but i think that telling someone to "Google it" when they occasionally ask a question is rather harsh.
 
Andy
 
----- Original Message ----- 
Sent: Friday, August 18, 2017 4:47 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Doing Google Searches

Most of us including myself are lazy. Ok, I'll google for something but if I just can't find the answer or the pages are 10 years old (this did happen to me a few times) I will ask on a list and point to the steps I took to troubleshoot the issue, and the steps I tool to try and figure out on my own how to do what ever it is I'm trying to do with nvda, narrator, voiceover, talkback etc.

Take care
On Aug 18, 2017, at 12:28 PM, Andre Fisher <fishersmails123@...> wrote:

Hi.
A quick query. Lately, I have realized that most persons subscribed to this list, rather than going to Google or a search engine of their choice, seek to ask questions here prior to doing this type of research. I’d seriously like to know why, as I find this practice to be counterproductive. Why do I say this? Because sometimes, the responses that are given are incorrect. Why don’t persons read the NVDA User Guide, for example. It is well detailed. Could persons explain this to me?




Re: Doing Google Searches

Lino Morales
 

I agree with you ANdy That's why if its not on here alreay a wiki for NVDA related issues.


On 8/18/2017 11:02 PM, Andy wrote:
This issue comes up from time to time, mostly on blind related lists. Interestingly, when among sighted people who have a tech question from time to time, usually if one knows the answer, they just give it. why have these lists at all if one can't feel comfortable asking a question? Now, if the same person asks questions repeatedly, and asks the same question over and over again, it may be appropriate to refer him or her to a resource, or advise that they may want to seek training, but i think that telling someone to "Google it" when they occasionally ask a question is rather harsh.
 
Andy
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, August 18, 2017 4:47 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Doing Google Searches

Most of us including myself are lazy. Ok, I'll google for something but if I just can't find the answer or the pages are 10 years old (this did happen to me a few times) I will ask on a list and point to the steps I took to troubleshoot the issue, and the steps I tool to try and figure out on my own how to do what ever it is I'm trying to do with nvda, narrator, voiceover, talkback etc.

Take care
On Aug 18, 2017, at 12:28 PM, Andre Fisher <fishersmails123@...> wrote:

Hi.
A quick query. Lately, I have realized that most persons subscribed to this list, rather than going to Google or a search engine of their choice, seek to ask questions here prior to doing this type of research. I’d seriously like to know why, as I find this practice to be counterproductive. Why do I say this? Because sometimes, the responses that are given are incorrect. Why don’t persons read the NVDA User Guide, for example. It is well detailed. Could persons explain this to me?



unattended formatting solutions?

 

Is there an unatended? ISO image or similar out there that will format all particians and install windows 7 or similar?


Re: Doing Google Searches

Arlene
 

They should never have kicked you off the list. Some people are both deaf and blind and want the text.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Sarah k Alawami
Sent: August-18-17 11:01 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Doing Google Searches

 

I actually got kicked off a list for telling someone to listen to x y and z's podcast on a subject. They wanted me to write the answer down in text. Um? Huh?  It was not this list, it was a different one I had ben  on for about 7 years. The moderators of that list basically told me off list I was being lazy. I don't think so as at the time this podcaster did a better job then I at explaining how to do the steps the person asking the question had. If all of this what I said  makes sense, that's good. Lol.

On Aug 18, 2017, at 10:00 PM, Melissa Jean <Melissa.J.Hammitt@...> wrote:

 

I'm not sure what other   people were thinking with their responses, but I know for certain that mine was not meant to be rude in anyway. I know for me, speaking from personal experience, listing what I do to find answers was supposed to be helpful in someway. I did not really see anywhere where someone said people who don't Google first shouldn't   be asking questions… Or anything along those lines. So, I don't really get this whole jump on the bandwagon and attacked people who ask the question "why don't people Google? " 

Just from observing over the years it seems that the people who jump on the people asking "why don't people google? "Are worse and the people who actually to ask why people don't do it a certain way…

Melissa

Sent from my iPhone


On Aug 18, 2017, at 11:35 PM, Arlene <nedster66@...> wrote:

Preach it Andy. I thought that’s what this list is for. If someone can’t find whatever it is using google. Then he she should be able to ask for any kind of help!

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Rosemarie Chavarria
Sent: August-18-17 9:16 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Doing Google Searches

 

Amen, Andy. I couldn't agree more. I almost left this list because I felt that a question wasn't being answered. If a person has tried searching for the answer on google or another search engine and can't find the answer, then he should be able to ask a question. After all, isn't that what this list is about--helping one another when we get stuck or have trouble finding an answer? 

 

Rosemarie 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Andy
Sent: Friday, August 18, 2017 8:02 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Doing Google Searches

 

This issue comes up from time to time, mostly on blind related lists. Interestingly, when among sighted people who have a tech question from time to time, usually if one knows the answer, they just give it. why have these lists at all if one can't feel comfortable asking a question? Now, if the same person asks questions repeatedly, and asks the same question over and over again, it may be appropriate to refer him or her to a resource, or advise that they may want to seek training, but i think that telling someone to "Google it" when they occasionally ask a question is rather harsh.

 

Andy

 

----- Original Message ----- 

Sent: Friday, August 18, 2017 4:47 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Doing Google Searches

 

Most of us including myself are lazy. Ok, I'll google for something but if I just can't find the answer or the pages are 10 years old (this did happen to me a few times) I will ask on a list and point to the steps I took to troubleshoot the issue, and the steps I tool to try and figure out on my own how to do what ever it is I'm trying to do with nvda, narrator, voiceover, talkback etc. 

 

Take care

On Aug 18, 2017, at 12:28 PM, Andre Fisher <fishersmails123@...> wrote:

 

Hi.

A quick query. Lately, I have realized that most persons subscribed to this list, rather than going to Google or a search engine of their choice, seek to ask questions here prior to doing this type of research. I’d seriously like to know why, as I find this practice to be counterproductive. Why do I say this? Because sometimes, the responses that are given are incorrect. Why don’t persons read the NVDA User Guide, for example. It is well detailed. Could persons explain this to me?

 

 


fixing pcs

Arlene
 

I don’t bmame you one bit. People make the same mistakes over and over and over. Some things I wont do on my own. I tend to run ahead and try to create something and run a muck. Now I'll quit trying to do that. Loll!

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Shaun Everiss
Sent: August-18-17 11:15 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Doing Google Searches

<sigh>

I get this with a few users I fix their systems that want me to fix a mistake they keep making.

Even with my best intentions they always seem not to take my advice.

I'd like to say to them, simply, pick up your laptop, and throw it outside your window into a drum of petrol and set that on fire then quit bugging me for all time.

I don't do this, I simply tell them that they should reformat and that a good reformat fixes everything, and if they have any issue they should reformat and quit bothering me which is the same thing.

I then give them some software and send them on their way.

I have had to do this to a person that wishes to crack software, gets viruses and stuff and treats her technology like I would treat my bike or my running shorts at the gym.

That is beat it all till it doesn't work, then fixes things and says it works.

No pride at all.

I have happily only had to do this with about 3 people in the same place mainly because they did the same thing over and over and that got on my whick.

There are just some people that shouldn't use a pc I guess.

Sucks to be them but one can only handle the same issue day to day for so long.




On 19/08/2017 6:00 p.m., Sarah k Alawami wrote:
I actually got kicked off a list for telling someone to listen to x y and z's podcast on a subject. They wanted me to write the answer down in text. Um? Huh? It was not this list, it was a different one I had ben on for about 7 years. The moderators of that list basically told me off list I was being lazy. I don't think so as at the time this podcaster did a better job then I at explaining how to do the steps the person asking the question had. If all of this what I said makes sense, that's good. Lol.
On Aug 18, 2017, at 10:00 PM, Melissa Jean <Melissa.J.Hammitt@gmail.com> wrote:

I'm not sure what other people were thinking with their responses, but I know for certain that mine was not meant to be rude in anyway. I know for me, speaking from personal experience, listing what I do to find answers was supposed to be helpful in someway. I did not really see anywhere where someone said people who don't Google first shouldn't be asking questions… Or anything along those lines. So, I don't really get this whole jump on the bandwagon and attacked people who ask the question "why don't people Google? "
Just from observing over the years it seems that the people who jump on the people asking "why don't people google? "Are worse and the people who actually to ask why people don't do it a certain way…

Melissa
Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 18, 2017, at 11:35 PM, Arlene <nedster66@gmail.com <mailto:nedster66@gmail.com>> wrote:

Preach it Andy. I thought that’s what this list is for. If someone can’t find whatever it is using google. Then he she should be able to ask for any kind of help!

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>] On Behalf Of Rosemarie Chavarria
Sent: August-18-17 9:16 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Doing Google Searches

Amen, Andy. I couldn't agree more. I almost left this list because I felt that a question wasn't being answered. If a person has tried searching for the answer on google or another search engine and can't find the answer, then he should be able to ask a question. After all, isn't that what this list is about--helping one another when we get stuck or have trouble finding an answer?

Rosemarie

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>] On Behalf Of Andy
Sent: Friday, August 18, 2017 8:02 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Doing Google Searches

This issue comes up from time to time, mostly on blind related lists. Interestingly, when among sighted people who have a tech question from time to time, usually if one knows the answer, they just give it. why have these lists at all if one can't feel comfortable asking a question? Now, if the same person asks questions repeatedly, and asks the same question over and over again, it may be appropriate to refer him or her to a resource, or advise that they may want to seek training, but i think that telling someone to "Google it" when they occasionally ask a question is rather harsh.

Andy

----- Original Message -----
From: Sarah k Alawami <mailto:marrie12@gmail.com>
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, August 18, 2017 4:47 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Doing Google Searches

Most of us including myself are lazy. Ok, I'll google for something but if I just can't find the answer or the pages are 10 years old (this did happen to me a few times) I will ask on a list and point to the steps I took to troubleshoot the issue, and the steps I tool to try and figure out on my own how to do what ever it is I'm trying to do with nvda, narrator, voiceover, talkback etc.

Take care
On Aug 18, 2017, at 12:28 PM, Andre Fisher <fishersmails123@gmail.com <mailto:fishersmails123@gmail.com>> wrote:

Hi.
A quick query. Lately, I have realized that most persons subscribed to this list, rather than going to Google or a search engine of their choice, seek to ask questions here prior to doing this type of research. I’d seriously like to know why, as I find this practice to be counterproductive. Why do I say this? Because sometimes, the responses that are given are incorrect. Why don’t persons read the NVDA User Guide, for example. It is well detailed. Could persons explain this to me?


Re: Doing Google Searches

Travis Siegel <tsiegel@...>
 

I don't see any problem with pointing someone to a resource to answer their question.  lots of discussion forums make it a practice to do exactly that.  In fact, some programming forums actively discourage answering questions directly, preferring instead for the answer to involve resources that would allow the original poster to learn for themselves how something is done.  If said poster continues to have problems, and honestly can't figure it out, or is stumped on some point of syntax or coding issues, then direct assistance may be offered, but in general, it's considered bad form to just up and give the answer, as it's considered feeding the trolls, which (unfortunately) is all to often the truth.

I don't think most mailing lists are quite that bad, but still, I find nothing wrong with someone pointing questioners to other resources to answer said question, especially (as you said) the said resource answers the question better than the answer given by the new poster could do, it only makes sense to answer the question in the best way possible, and if someone has a resource for that purpose, by all means, post it.  I think most people are more than happy to answer questions (though there probably should be an FAQ of some sort that can be pointed to when the same question keeps popping up), and if answering the question involves pointing to other resources to fill in the gaps in knowledge or to provide a more in depth explanation, then I see absolutely nothing wrong with that.

On 8/19/2017 2:00 AM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:
I actually got kicked off a list for telling someone to listen to x y and z's podcast on a subject. They wanted me to write the answer down in text. Um? Huh?  It was not this list, it was a different one I had ben  on for about 7 years. The moderators of that list basically told me off list I was being lazy. I don't think so as at the time this podcaster did a better job then I at explaining how to do the steps the person asking the question had. If all of this what I said  makes sense, that's good. Lol.


Re: Doing Google Searches

 

On Sat, Aug 19, 2017 at 08:13 am, Rob wrote:
If you disagree on this point, then we'll just have to agree to disagree.
And we shall.   The number of audio tutorials produced, quite intentionally, for the blind and visually-impaired clearly indicates that this is one of the preferred modalities even though it's not applicable to the deaf-blind.

I don't, and would never, presume deaf-blindness as the default audience on a list such as this one and don't know why anyone should be taken to task for not doing so and offering audio as a reasonable option.
 
--
Brian  Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1703, Build 15063  (dot level on request - it changes too often to keep in signature)

     The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement.  But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth.

            Niels Bohr