Date   

Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

 

On Mon, Jan 4, 2021 at 07:55 PM, Orlando Enrique Fiol wrote:
The difference involves the temporal rate at which blind versus sighted users take in written verbal information. It i an irrefutable fact that visually scanning text with the naked eye is quicker than reading with speech at any rate. Just ask any reading comprehension or memory/retention specialist.
-
An area where, both from my academic background, and my clinical experience, I am more than familiar.

It's also irrelevant for the kinds of things I'm generally talking about, and even beyond.

Yes, it's slower and more arduous for blind individuals to deal with many text based things.  That is not, nor should ever be, considered an excuse not to do so.  And what you're offering is, indeed, an excuse.

No one is simply allowed to say, "It's too hard, so someone else should be expected to do the heavy lifting for me."  That happens, far too often, and I make no apology for saying so.

Many of the questions asked here and on several other blind-centric lists I frequent that repeat again and again and again are not, even vaguely, in the class where anything beyond minutes of review would be required to get an answer via a search.  I am sick to death of even the implication that I make my frustrations plain because people are asking questions that are of a complex nature or on features that are seldom used or require tricky interactions.

On a group like this one, I have seen things asked that NVDA help itself, in-program help, can answer in mere seconds if someone uses it.  And if someone states they are a neophyte, I answer the actual question and instruct on how to find it independently along with related information later.  These are not the people or instances that make me want to reach out and throttle anyone.  It's people who have been around, and often posting moderately frequently, asking simple questions that I absolutely know they have seen asked and answered innumerable times, because I'm familiar with their names for the duration of the time I've been participating or close to it.  That's not OK, not with me, and never will be.

My track record, in all respects, is abundantly clear and stands on its own.  I am happy to be taken to task for things I've actually said, or done, or both.  I'm even OK with being taken to task when what I have written could be construed in ways other than I'd intended, as that's entirely my fault.  But what I'm not OK with, and it's occurred on a number of occasions on this very topic, is having hypotheticals that have no connection to what I have said or have done, treated as though they're germane.

One of the biggest of those, and I hasten to add that I am not accusing you, specifically, on this one, is that I am somehow short-tempered and unsupportive of those new to NVDA when it's clear that this is the situation.  I have not been.  But I am also not willing to presume that every new member here is a neophyte unless they make that clear in some way.  The fact is that most new members are not, and never have been.  Most joining lists like this have years of screen reader and general computer use experience, and I will always  presume that anyone coming in here is way more likely to know the basics of a screen reader (not necessarily NVDA), how to use email, how to browse the web, and how to perform a web search.  This being 2021, and my having senior citizen clients who can handle the basics of all of those things (both with and without vision), will keep me convinced that this is not an unreasonable presumption.  People joining tech groups are very, very seldom "blank slates."  And many egregious offenders with "simple questions" are those I know are absolutely not inexperienced, and they should know better.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

       ~ Brian Vogel

 


dictation bridge with latest NVDA2020.1 and later

Josh Kennedy
 

HI,

Are there any plans to update dictation bridge so it works with NVDA2020.1 and later?

 

Josh

 

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

 

Hi,

Having studied writing a bit, these days I tend to view programming as a form of writing, or rather, writing a screenplay (Python syntax greatly resembles English a lot, and perhaps that could be one of the reasons for its popularity).

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Monday, January 4, 2021 5:27 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read

 

On Mon, Jan 4, 2021 at 08:19 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:

programming isn't for everyone

-
You, Mr. Lee, are a master of understatement on many occasions.

I am absolutely in awe of anyone who is blind and insane enough to choose to be a programmer!  I would have lost my mind in debugging some of the simplest things I'd written, strictly based on fixing syntax errors, had I not been able to see, literally, what was being flagged.

Not to mention, and there really is no way to explain this accurately or succinctly, but the way one must think in order to be a top notch programmer is not something that most people can do.  Even to be a fair to middling programmer, really.  And that's not an insult to anyone, it's simply my own opinion and insight after having spent many years in that end of the business.  The very best programmers seem (note, seem) "to be born with it" rather than having acquired the skill through education alone.  The pursuit is every bit as much art as science, sometimes more.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

       ~ Brian Vogel

 


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Orlando Enrique Fiol
 

At 12:32 AM 12/31/2020, Gene wrote:
You haven't defined what thinking in sighted terms means. If I'm
writing on a list like this, I'm not going to say, click on tools, then click options, then click on whatever tab I may want to move to from the default. for one thing, a lot of people wouldn't know what I was talking about. for another, blind people do work from the keyboard in most of what they do. I think about mouse commands when I need to, when reading instructions written for sighted people, and when describing how to do something to a sighted person. But when I'm thinking about how I usually use a computer, I think about the way I use it, from the keyboard. I'm not going to spend the time and effort translating keyboard procedures for blind people to read because of an ideological belief that we have to think in sighted terms. When I open a menu in a typical program, I don't think to myself, click the menu in the menu bar. Whether I think about it or do it so automatically that I don't think about it, I press alt and then do whatever I do to finish opening the menu. While it is a good thing for people who want to expand their abilities beyond that, that doesn't mean that we have to describe things the way sighted people do when talking with other blind people. Living in a sighted world requires certain skills and knowledge. It doesn't mean that we have to describe everything as sighted people do when we talk among ourselves.

Very well-articulated, my good man. I would go further and say that this issue is absurdly simple. Any great pastor/preacher knows how to address and bond with different audiences. They will not use medical metaphors for an audience of farmers or construction workers, nor artistic references with audiences of accountants and debt collectors. They will not insist that only certain life examples or metaphors can be used, and that each audience must make its own effort to relate to them. That's a surefire recipe for empty and closed-down churches.
Part of my fascination with languages stems from my childhood observations that saying even a few words in someone's language instantly endeared me to them, especially in a country where most of the natives put down rather than sought out their language and customs. Later on, my ability to speak different languages gained me access to communities who would otherwise mistrust and socially distance me. Had I maintained that English is a global and therefore superior language, refusing to learn their language, I would not have gained their trust.
So many of us have thanked and praised Brian's otherwise thankless efforts in decades of accessibility work precisely because he has demonstrated day after day a respect for our needs, perspectives and language. He could easily maintain that, being sighted, he is fluent in the only mainstream technological language and that anyone who can't understand his terms must either keep up or shut up. Yet, he takes seemingly infinite time to describe in painstaking detail all sorts of controls, screen layouts, navigation strategies, keyboard implementations, etc., all using terms that many of us have acknowledged as being refreshingly comprehensible.
My hunch is that a certain elderly music teacher who told a certain blind student that she had to think sighted or fall behind was just running a racket on her in order to stave off having to change how he taught the blind. By convincing her of this lie, he put all the burden on her to do anything necessary so that he could teach blind and sighted identically. We cannot fault this ambitious music student for doing what was necessary to get a 79 grade on an exam whose perfect score was always 100%. But we can and must rebuke her misguided practice of perpetuating this dangerous myth on our blind youth, filling their bubbling brains with terrifying thoughts of being "left behind" unless they speak sighted 24/7.


Orlando


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Gene
 

I don't know if this message is getting too detailed and most of it should be on the chat list but it may help some or many people.

Regarding well crafted searches, I'm not sure how much of this applied years ago such as in about 2000, but Google is a consumer product and is now smart enough to give good results even if ;people don't know what used to be taught for defining a search in detail. I never use boolean operators and I almost never use quotation marks. I just type in a few words what I want to know but people can use full sentences if they wish. I might search for something like Happiness IS a Warm Gun lyrics or Happiness Is a Warm Gun Youtube. I might search for something like list of keyboard commands for Word or Microsoft Word. My point is that defining a search most of the time is a matter of typing what you want to know, being aware that if you don't define something enough, you might have to try again with another word or two added or changed to get good results. For example, if I type a name of a song and it’s a common phrase I might see used elsewhere, I might have to do another search such as name of song then type the name of the group.

It might be easier to get people who have the Internet skills to search to do so if it were made clear that searching usually doesn't involve the more complex methods they may have heard discussed.

As far as the discussion of people doing searches, one approach might be to distinguish between the two kinds of people who don't search. there are people who ask lots of
questions over time who have good computer skills and whom I would have no objection to being expected to do searches. They either already can or could do good searches generally with a little instruction.

Then there are those who ask questions off and on and who don't have good computer skills. Those people I would probably let ask questions and not make an issue of searching.



Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Gene
Sent: Monday, January 04, 2021 6:52 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read

I'm not sure why you didn't find the message. I tried searching for its
beginning one or two ways but then I thought of moving by separator and I
found the start of it immediately below the separator. . I tried other
ways and I got close to the message as well or right to the message text
when I repeated the skip blocs of links command three times.

I wonder if there is something about your browser configuration that is
perhaps interfering with you seeing it?

Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: Orlando Enrique Fiol via groups.io
Sent: Monday, January 04, 2021 6:32 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read

At 06:31 PM 1/4/2021, Brian Vogel wrote:
First, direct link to the opening message:
https://nvda.groups.io/g/nvda/message/80182
Activating that link takes me to a page telling me everything I do
and don't want to know about the original message except the message
itself, with no keyboard-friendly way of navigating to subsequent
messages in the thread. Most email clients have key commands for
previous and next message; if they don't, and have no way to
configure them, you can guess where I chuck them.


Orlando


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

 

On Mon, Jan 4, 2021 at 08:26 PM, Orlando Enrique Fiol wrote:
Pinky promise.
-
You really, really don't seem to understand that what you're saying, and the way you're saying it, is almost perfectly analogous to the person you're decrying.

No gray areas, pure absolutism, and with plenty of stuff on which I would gladly call BS.   Someone mentioned, and it wasn't me, "bitter blind person."  Your most recent offerings read as generated by the paragon of that.  You need to consider what you're saying, broaden your exposure to the employed blind (as many exist), or both.  And none of what I just said states or implies that much of what you say does not have some merit.  But it's so hyperbolic as to make it easily dismissible by a very great many people, including myself, and regardless of their visual status.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

       ~ Brian Vogel

 


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

 

On Mon, Jan 4, 2021 at 08:19 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:
programming isn't for everyone
-
You, Mr. Lee, are a master of understatement on many occasions.

I am absolutely in awe of anyone who is blind and insane enough to choose to be a programmer!  I would have lost my mind in debugging some of the simplest things I'd written, strictly based on fixing syntax errors, had I not been able to see, literally, what was being flagged.

Not to mention, and there really is no way to explain this accurately or succinctly, but the way one must think in order to be a top notch programmer is not something that most people can do.  Even to be a fair to middling programmer, really.  And that's not an insult to anyone, it's simply my own opinion and insight after having spent many years in that end of the business.  The very best programmers seem (note, seem) "to be born with it" rather than having acquired the skill through education alone.  The pursuit is every bit as much art as science, sometimes more.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

       ~ Brian Vogel

 


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Orlando Enrique Fiol
 

At 12:14 AM 12/31/2020, Dale Leavens wrote:
Over my 7 decades as a blind man the one consistent observation I
continue to experience is that altitude of the blind that blindness
related employment should be provided preference to blind candidates
rather than the most capable and/or competent persons. Often these
are the same sort who would object to sheltered workshops but really
what is the difference?
The difference is that blind candidates possessing many more than the stated qualifications are routinely denied employment because we are blind, despite our qualifications.

This topic demonstrates that prejudice is live and well in the
blindness community just like in the general population.
Yes indeed. It is unconscionably despicable for any blind person calling themselves an instructor to insist on using exclusively sighted concepts and terminology with blind students under the guise of protecting them from being "left behind". This attitude demonstrates the persistent belief that, if we would only act and speak more sighted, the sighted world would eventually be unable to tell that we're blind and thus lavish upon us the same opportunities that its inhabitants take for granted. This analogous to some Black folks' belief that if they act and speak more stereotypically White, the White world will think they're White and accept them. Or, there is a real thing within the gay community called "straight-acting". It seems that some gay men prefer partners who do not carry themselves or behave in ways that have become associated with gay stereotypes. Again, this preference is based on a faulty premise, that acting straight will fool straight people into overlooking a homosexual's true orientation and therefore not discriminate against them.
Point is, Black folk, LGBTQ folks and even blind folks shouldn't have to adopt mainstream mannerisms just to be placed in the running for vague hopes of equal opportunity, especially when it has been proven that assimilation efforts contribute neither positively nor negatively to its fruition. Those with the power to restrict opportunity will do so, regardless of how assiduously we assimilate their culture. This is because their basis for discriminating against us is rooted in aspects of our identity that we cannot change with assimilation. We will always be blind; sighted employers, school boards, search committees, even parents of potential music students know this. With this knowledge comes an unshakable belief that, being unable to see, we're also unable to do the jobs for which we're applying. Again, no amount of gratuitous assimilation changes that belief.
However, just for good measure, I will officially retract all these statements the day I hear someone say to my face, "We were initially quite skeptical about Sarah's abilities as a blind computer instructor. But when we heard and saw her breathtaking fluency in our language of icons, symbols and mouse clicks, we forgot all about her blindness and gave her our best job offer: lifetime tenure with full health benefits and annual cost of living increases commensurate with inflation."
When that happens, I too will change my habits to get behind something that actually works. I will no longer speak of tab stops or key commands and will censure anyone who dares to address computer issues in my presence without obligatory references to holy icons and holier mouse clicks. Pinky promise.


Orlando


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

 

Hi Orlando,
Do note that some devs (including I) monitor this list and do our best to
provide fixes as soon as possible.
As for the issue you raised (reordering speech sequence, as it is
technically known): in theory it is possible to bring this to life provided
that one can deal with ways to obtain speech sequence (a list containing
speech commands and the text to be spoken) and reorder things on the fly.
The speech internals can be customized easily; the hard part is the actual
interface to use when configuring it, made more complicated due to the fact
that not all wxPython controls are entirely usable. The best interface is
what's called a rearrange control, a list view that holds a list of
checkboxes and buttons to move items up and down. The issue has to do with
really verbose announcement when you move items around, and I do have a
workaround in StationPlaylist add-on where a panel consisting of a list view
and move up/down buttons are used to move items around (no checkboxes).
As for asking for this feature in first alpha: I'm sure Brian V and other
people who have experiences in software engineering can chime in, but
suffice to say that it isn't a good idea. The purpose of alphas is to prove
to the world that something is indeed working according to specifications.
Only then folks can add features based on feedback while balancing
development schedule, feature scope, impact on other teams such as
documentation writers and what not.
As for NVDA taking this long to implement a feature like this: multiple
factors are at play, including looking for people who will show interest in
writing a feature (made slightly more easier thanks to NV Access's
participation in Google Summer of Code), balancing new features versus risk
of introducing regressions (speech module, the backbone of NVDA's speech
output, was originally a single Python file but became a package due to its
complexity and to prepare for speech refactor work), and priorities of not
only NV Access, but code contributors. In an ideal case, speech sequence
reordering facility should be present, or at least someone would be working
on it. At the moment I'm researching NVDA and Python 3.8/3.9, dependencies,
add-on maintenance and such. Although I may or may not get around to
implementing what you want, at least folks now know at least the big picture
as to how to bring your feature request to life (I dare not ask users who
are requesting this feature to work on it because programming isn't for
everyone).
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Orlando Enrique
Fiol via groups.io
Sent: Monday, January 4, 2021 4:40 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read

At 07:24 PM 1/4/2021, Brian Vogel wrote:
>I'd say because your specific needs are not broadly shared, which is >not
to say they're wrong. User bases as a whole tend to request >feature
updates they want most the most frequently, and that figures >in to
prioritization.

I totally get that, which astonishes me even more. Screen readerss entire
purpose is reporting screen contents; as such, users should be able to
configure the order in which those contents are spoken and change that order
on the fly, saving different configurations as needed. I'm surprised that at
this stage of NVDA's development, we have to explicitly request this
"feature". It would be like requesting a newly-launched car model to contain
brakes or a check engine light.

>Have you ever looked at the GitHub issues (specifically open ones) for
NVDA to see if what you're asking for is even "on the radar screen"?
>Sometimes things you'd think might be just aren't, and it's because >most
either don't need it or no one has ever made the effort to put in >an
issue.

I admittedly have not, since I mainly use JAWS and Window-eyes. I only
invoke NVDA when those two can't deliver the goods.

>One of the great things about NVDA is that there exists a >far more
direct line to the development team from the end users via >GitHub than
exists for other software.

Which dismays me even more. A screen reader created largely by and for blind
users should have configurable verbosity order baked into its first alfa
version.

>

Orlando


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

 

On Mon, Jan 4, 2021 at 07:52 PM, Gene wrote:
I'm not sure why you didn't find the message.
-
Nor am I, really.  We do have a few blind regulars (and I think it's OK to state it this way) that routinely use the web interface.  They are a small minority, but certain things said by a couple of members either very strongly suggest or directly state they're reading via the Groups.io web interface.

I'd prefer, if they're still reading this topic, that they chime in regarding what they do.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

       ~ Brian Vogel

 


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Orlando Enrique Fiol
 

At 07:42 PM 1/4/2021, Brian Vogel wrote:
You'll notice that I said "direct link to the opening message." Â I
meant exactly what I said. If you want the link to the whole topic
instead, I could give it, or you could activate the link at the bottom
of any single message page that reads, "View all XXX threads in this
topic," link. We're probably going to be at 169 or 170 by the time
you read this if you click through on
https://nvda.groups.io/g/nvda/message/80182 again.
The entire topic is at https://nvda.groups.io/g/nvda/topic/79307777 ,
but I didn't want the original questioner to have to plow through the
entire topic to locate the message I wanted her to see.
Tool to my intended task.
My initial observations stand corrected. By activating the topic link, I indeed read as many thread posts as were displayed on each page. However, when I've searched these groups.io archives in the past, I've only gotten message headers without bodies. Activating any individual message links still got me no closer to actual message bodies. Yet, your direct link did. The only very annoying limitation here is that I cannot navigate through the text of each message body by any unit smaller than line. When I try, all arrow keys take me to previous or next messages in the thread, rather than navigate me by characters or words within the current message body. This shouldn't happen in browse/form mode, but it does here.


Orlando


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Orlando Enrique Fiol
 

At 07:37 PM 1/4/2021, Brian Vogel wrote:
Why not? I do, your sighted friend does. Even with the
additional challenge, you (the generic blind you) are not granted
special dispensation from plowing through results, many of which may
be of limited or no use.
The difference involves the temporal rate at which blind versus sighted users take in written verbal information. It i an irrefutable fact that visually scanning text with the naked eye is quicker than reading with speech at any rate. Just ask any reading comprehension or memory/retention specialist.

When you figure out that this is the case in very short order, then
asking in a specialized venue is entirely appropriate. My issue is
that far too frequently, for far too many things, that effort is never
made. And that's why a number of my replies to what I do consider
questions for which finding the answer is simpler via a web search
than asking on this (or another) group is a direct link to a web
search using the necessary terms. It's long past time that doing
this and plowing through at least the top 5 results from a
well-crafted search be insisted upon. Most times where I post
those links have the exact answer sought in the very first result, and
using search terms that are generally derived from the subject or
state question, and usually no more than three words, with the
occasional four.
This just is not rocket science, nor is the expectation that you, any
you, have to review the top few results before throwing up your
hands. In the Internet age, this is a fundamental skill that you,
any you, must have. And if you don't, you need to acquire it.
To use one of your parsimonious expressions, "tool to task". If someone considers posting to an email list and waiting around for answers that may never arrive is somehow preferable to online searches, no amount of reprimand will convince them otherwise, else they would have switched procedures by now. If you notice, I don't post many questions to lists, both because I'm all too capable of online searching, and because most of my issues seem too esoteric for even the most advanced users.
For instance, the other day, I was having this baffling experience with JAWS 2021 where I would switch voice profiles in one application and expect whatever profile was associated with other applications in other windows to kick in when those windows had focus--which wasn't happening. Even more baffling, when I would switch profiles, although JAWS reported the profile changes, the voices from the previously-used profiles endured. It was almost as though JAWS didn't recognize me as the system administrator or something.
Another example: If anyone can tell me how to activate Windows notifications from the actions center consistently (preferably with the keyboard), I'll expertly prepare their favorite meals for a straight month at my expense. Hopefully, this will end up being more cost-effective than offering a hundred bucks. Then again, the Colombian peso is about 300 to the U.S. dollar, so I can afford a hundred of those. *grin*
Seriously, whenever I try to activate notifications in the actions center, they disappear rather than open the webpages I know they should. Let's say I get a Youtube notification from a subscribed channel. I expect that pressing enter, space or a simulated left mouse click on the notification will cause my default web browser (Chrome) to open with the relevant video loaded. Instead, nothing happens. That's right. whether I press space, enter or simulate a left-click, nothing happens. All the actions center notifications have become little more to me than teasers for videos and news headlines I will never explore in depth as my sighted counterparts do by simply clicking those notifications.


Orlando


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Gene
 

I'm not sure why you didn't find the message. I tried searching for its beginning one or two ways but then I thought of moving by separator and I found the start of it immediately below the separator. . I tried other ways and I got close to the message as well or right to the message text when I repeated the skip blocs of links command three times.

I wonder if there is something about your browser configuration that is perhaps interfering with you seeing it?

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Orlando Enrique Fiol via groups.io
Sent: Monday, January 04, 2021 6:32 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read

At 06:31 PM 1/4/2021, Brian Vogel wrote:
First, direct link to the opening message:
https://nvda.groups.io/g/nvda/message/80182
Activating that link takes me to a page telling me everything I do
and don't want to know about the original message except the message
itself, with no keyboard-friendly way of navigating to subsequent
messages in the thread. Most email clients have key commands for
previous and next message; if they don't, and have no way to
configure them, you can guess where I chuck them.


Orlando


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

 

On Mon, Jan 4, 2021 at 07:33 PM, Orlando Enrique Fiol wrote:
Activating that link takes me to a page telling me everything I do and don't want to know about the original message except the message itself, with no keyboard-friendly way of navigating to subsequent messages in the thread.
-
You'll notice that I said "direct link to the opening message."   I meant exactly what I said.  If you want the link to the whole topic instead, I could give it, or you could activate the link at the bottom of any single message page that reads, "View all XXX threads in this topic," link.  We're probably going to be at 169 or 170 by the time you read this if you click through on https://nvda.groups.io/g/nvda/message/80182 again.

The entire topic is at https://nvda.groups.io/g/nvda/topic/79307777, but I didn't want the original questioner to have to plow through the entire topic to locate the message I wanted her to see.

Tool to my intended task.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

       ~ Brian Vogel

 


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Gene
 

Perhaps one of the developers will address the question. I wonder if there is a technical reason for this, such as how Windows provides information to screen-readers. Older screen-readers, such as JAWS, I believe, use a different method for getting a lot of the kinds of information you are discussing.

Another thing which would be very useful and it would be very important to some people would be the ability to create what JAWS calls frames, certain parts of the screen that will automatically take actions under certain conditions or that you can have read by issuing a command. and regarding having things read, the frame can be set to automatically read under certain conditions.

I suspect there is some sort of technical limitation on the way NVDA gets information because this is a feature of enough importance that I suspect it would have been implemented if it could have been. However, I may be wrong about both and I hope those with the technical knowledge discuss those questions.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Orlando Enrique Fiol via groups.io
Sent: Monday, January 04, 2021 6:17 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read

At 06:06 PM 1/4/2021, Chris Smart wrote:
Betsy, have you tried the NVDA basic training?
I'm going through it now, after using another screen reader for
many years, and I find it to be quite well written and organized,
with lots of little exercises to actually work through.

I know we're on the NVDA list. But I may as well come clean. NVDA
will never be my primary screen reader until it gives me control over
the exact order of spoken elements. Every other screen reader
provides this. If I'm going through a list of check boxes and want to
hear which ones are checked, I need the state spoken either first or
right after the control type, not at the end of its field data. For
another example, if I'm in a dialogue where I know that its only
combo edit box changes a particular setting, I need my screen reader
to announce the control type first while I quickly tab between
fields. How this has managed to get through so many of NVDA versions
without being addressed, with the cooperation of so many blind users,
is baffling.


Orlando


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Orlando Enrique Fiol
 

At 07:24 PM 1/4/2021, Brian Vogel wrote:
I'd say because your specific needs are not broadly shared, which is
not to say they're wrong. User bases as a whole tend to request
feature updates they want most the most frequently, and that figures
in to prioritization.
I totally get that, which astonishes me even more. Screen readerss entire purpose is reporting screen contents; as such, users should be able to configure the order in which those contents are spoken and change that order on the fly, saving different configurations as needed. I'm surprised that at this stage of NVDA's development, we have to explicitly request this "feature". It would be like requesting a newly-launched car model to contain brakes or a check engine light.

Have you ever looked at the GitHub issues (specifically open ones) for
NVDA to see if what you're asking for is even "on the radar screen"?
Sometimes things you'd think might be just aren't, and it's because
most either don't need it or no one has ever made the effort to put in
an issue.
I admittedly have not, since I mainly use JAWS and Window-eyes. I only invoke NVDA when those two can't deliver the goods.

One of the great things about NVDA is that there exists a
far more direct line to the development team from the end users via
GitHub than exists for other software.
Which dismays me even more. A screen reader created largely by and for blind users should have configurable verbosity order baked into its first alfa version.

Orlando


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

 

On Mon, Jan 4, 2021 at 07:29 PM, Orlando Enrique Fiol wrote:
But, I happened to mention this to a sighted friend the other day. He did a Google search and it took even him nearly ten minutes to ascertain that the relevant key command is nothing more than the letter P.
Now, come on, we shouldn't have to read through dozens of forum threads to learn that.
-
Why not?   I do, your sighted friend does.  Even with the additional challenge, you (the generic blind you) are not granted special dispensation from plowing through results, many of which may be of limited or no use.

When you figure out that this is the case in very short order, then asking in a specialized venue is entirely appropriate.  My issue is that far too frequently, for far too many things, that effort is never made.  And that's why a number of my replies to what I do consider questions for which finding the answer is simpler via a web search than asking on this (or another) group is a direct link to a web search using the necessary terms.  It's long past time that doing this and plowing through at least the top 5 results from a well-crafted search be insisted upon.  Most of the thing where I post those links have the exact answer sought in the very first result, and using search terms that are generally derived from the subject or state question, and usually no more than three words, with the occasional four.

This just is not rocket science, nor is the expectation that you, any you, have to review the top few results before throwing up your hands.  In the internet age, this is a fundamental skill that you, any you, must have.  And if you don't, you need to acquire it.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

       ~ Brian Vogel

 


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Orlando Enrique Fiol
 

At 06:31 PM 1/4/2021, Brian Vogel wrote:
First, direct link to the opening message:
https://nvda.groups.io/g/nvda/message/80182
Activating that link takes me to a page telling me everything I do and don't want to know about the original message except the message itself, with no keyboard-friendly way of navigating to subsequent messages in the thread. Most email clients have key commands for previous and next message; if they don't, and have no way to configure them, you can guess where I chuck them.


Orlando


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Orlando Enrique Fiol
 

At 06:23 PM 1/4/2021, Brian Vogel wrote:
Betsy, you know I've lent you a hand directly on occasions, and I
would be happy to keep doing so in regard to polishing your web and/or
archive search skills such that you know the process for zeroing in on
what you're looking for in a very great many cases. That would be a
great Chat Subgroup topic for any and all who want to join in and
improve such skills.
My frustrations with online searches are not with phrasing my queries in order to get hits; I usually get hundreds to thousands of results. My issue is in finding the relevant information on the pages for each activated result. Microsoft's forums, the Super User forums and many others are so cluttered with header information, upvote/downvote crap and ads for driver checking software that I often find myself no better informed after navigating those pages by links, text, controls, articles, block quotes, etc.
I can only imagine how frustrated a beginner would feel when queering Google for, say, the key command to begin playback from the beginning of a file in VLC. The documentation includes no complete hotkey list, and the hotkey dialogue itself is horribly inaccessible.. Videoland's VLC forums are full of exhausting threads and subthreads lasting pages and pages.
But, I happened to mention this to a sighted friend the other day. He did a Google search and it took even him nearly ten minutes to ascertain that the relevant key command is nothing more than the letter P.
Now, come on, we shouldn't have to read through dozens of forum threads to learn that. This is what frustrates people; the signal-to-noise ratio during online searches is very low. I would want to type "VLC Key Commands" into Google and get a hit saying, "Complete List of VLC Key Commands" or shortcut keys. I don't want to read dozens of forum thread to ascertain a single key command.
If you like, I can figure out how to export in some form my last hundred Google searches. Choose, say, three, and time yourself, of course working only with a keyboard and screen reader, to see how long it takes for the relevant question to be answered. I think you'll be unpleasantly disappointed.


Orlando


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

 

On Mon, Jan 4, 2021 at 07:18 PM, Orlando Enrique Fiol wrote:
How this has managed to get through so many of NVDA versions without being addressed, with the cooperation of so many blind users, is baffling.
-
I'd say because your specific needs are not broadly shared, which is not to say they're wrong.  User bases as a whole tend to request feature updates they want most the most frequently, and that figures in to prioritization.

Have you ever looked at the GitHub issues (specifically open ones) for NVDA to see if what you're asking for is even "on the radar screen"?  Sometimes things you'd think might be just aren't, and it's because most either don't need it or no one has ever made the effort to put in an issue.  One of the great things about NVDA is that there exists a far more direct line to the development team from the end users via GitHub than exists for other software.

And none of the above is meant to imply that NVDA should be your first choice.  Tool to task, and there are times when NVDA is not the best tool for a given task or cluster of tasks depending on context and what the end user finds preferable.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

       ~ Brian Vogel

 

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