Date   

Re: Strategies for navigating YouTube comments using NVDA?

Sascha Cowley
 

Comments are only loaded when you scroll down the page past the video description. Usually, I just rapidly scroll down the page, wait a couple of seconds, then the comments section will be there.
As for navigating comments, I typically use [e] to navigate to the edit field to add your own comment, then use [g] to navigate to each comment, as each begins with a profile picture.


Re: Odd arrow keys and speak current character behavior with MinTTY under Windows Subsystem for Linux

Jason White
 


On 12/21/20 1:23 AM, Dan Miner via groups.io wrote:
As for why, I find myself in WSL, mSYS2 and Cygwin depending on the task I am trying to do or testing.  It would be helpful to have a consistent terminal for them all and MinTTY is the closest I know of.

Have you tried Windows Terminal? NVDA support was added in a somewhat recent release, and further improvements are expected. It can run PowerShell and WSL.

My personal preference is to run Linux natively of course, but that isn't a topic for the NVDA list.


Re: Odd arrow keys and speak current character behavior with MinTTY under Windows Subsystem for Linux

Tony Malykh
 

For what it's worth, I wrote a new add-on Console Toolkit. Always wanted to write something for myself, but your message finally made me to find some time and do so. Basically you can capture output of any command with it, it works by redirectign output to "less" command and then interacting with it and reading the output page by page. Works in cmd.exe and bash, possibly over ssh, but requires some configuration.
HTH
--Tony

------ Original Message ------
From: "Dan Miner via groups.io" <dminer84@...>
Sent: 12/21/2020 11:00:04 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Odd arrow keys and speak current character behavior with MinTTY under Windows Subsystem for Linux

The shift modifier did the trick so now I can jump to the top or bottom quickly.  Now just need “Go to line” kind of feature and targeted navigation will have decent support.   Like pressing shift+keypad 5, then it could prompt for input and I enter 6 and it moves the review cursor to line 6 of the object, and for extra credit: 6,15 to move to line 6 and position 15.  The next one of less use is “where am I?” to report the believed line and position of the cursor in the object.  And the one I am surprised to not find is text search via review cursor in a terminal like display.. even dialog boxes would benefit.

 

As for “What is prompt tracking”, I see I wasn’t clear.  It’s the little bit of text throw out by shells before waiting on user input.  Any modest command-line user is aware of them but they can be a bother to find easily.  There was a screen reader that did a surprisingly good job noting these natural “stopping points” in the user’s interactions and kind of treated them like a bookmark or annotation to be used like a latter to climb up and down the terminal session.  Great for referencing and linking ideas together.

 

As for emacs, I think much of the barebones support is there since bash is quite emacs-like.  It is the control key combos which do movement and modifications which is missing.  Most they just need to read character or word, etc the current position.  This is how I would approach vim support too initially.  It is the navigation by non-arrow key means which causes problems and it is common in vim.  Vim (and vi based editors) use a neat compositional  approach to its command structure which will help support the basics.

 

Then line numbered displays with monitored (quiet or live) regions and we have a decent text area canvas to paint our wonderous creations upon.  The gotcha is knowing the app within the terminal to use an app switching approach like regular Windows apps.

 

Ah well… I can dream…

 

    Dan

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Tony Malykh
Sent: Monday, December 21, 2020 5:43 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Odd arrow keys and speak current character behavior with MinTTY under Windows Subsystem for Linux

 

Yeah, clip.exe is great if you are in MSYS or WSL.
> review: go to top of screen
Try Shift+Numpad 7?
Finding things in review mode can be a nice feature.
What is prompt tracking ? NVDA seems to be pretty responsive in command prompt, and you can even navigate control+Left/right, nVDA would track all the words correctly. It probably won't work as well in bash, since the definition of the word is different. That's why I want to write command line editor add-on for NVDA....

As for VIM support or emacs support, people have been talking for a long time, but it seems to me that not enough people are actually using either vim or emacs, so nobody has actually spent time on this. Most NVDA users either use specialized IDEs for coding, or something like Notepad++. And also it is not quite clear how to improve accessibility of emacs/vim - that is there is no way for screenreader to identify what's running inside the command prompt application, especially given the fact that emacs/vim can run from within SSH session.

 

On 12/21/2020 10:30 AM, Dan Miner via groups.io wrote:

I’ll take a closer look at your add-on.

 

For my usage of “cut & paste”, I am usually only pasting into a terminal.  And I do like that review mark & copy mechanism  For the larger copy needs, I was just redirecting to a file and yanking it open in something like notepad.  But I recently ran across a Windows CLI utility  called clip.exe which can remove all of that or shorten up the steps.  Works withinMSYS2, Cygwin, and WSL (must be clip.exe or aliased somehow to drop the .exe).

 

My wish list is a bit different, I want faster navigation tools for the terminal like there was back in the late 80s and early 90s.  A DOS screen reader back then was a terminal navigation ninja.  At a minimum, I need “review: go to top of screen” and “review: Find first occurrence” plus “review: Find Next”  A real nice to have would be prompt tracking and using a key combo to go backward and forward along the “prompt blocks”.  Then there is good vim within the terminal support… *sigh*

 

                Dan

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Tony Malykh
Sent: Monday, December 21, 2020 9:59 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Odd arrow keys and speak current character behavior with MinTTY under Windows Subsystem for Linux

 

So for pasting things, I implemented a function that pastes into command prompt window even when context menu is not available. You can get it in my Tony's enhancements add-on - you'd need to enable it in the options, it is disabled by default.

For copying things out of command prompt I would still try to use review cursor. Or for copying large amounts of data, like large output of some command, I have some scripts where on Linux side I save it to a shared folder, and on Windows I periodically check that shared folder and copy things to clipboard as they appear.

But yeah, I wish there was a single good terminal solution, that works for NVDA. I think too few blind people work in terminals, so things are what they are. Sometimes I am thinking, someone should just implmement a simple terminal from within NVDA - something that would be accessible to begin with - in the end there is no rocket science in terminals....

--Tony

On 12/20/2020 10:23 PM, Dan Miner via groups.io wrote:

Well, I’ll take a peek and see if I can make any sense of it.

 

As for why, I find myself in WSL, mSYS2 and Cygwin depending on the task I am trying to do or testing.  It would be helpful to have a consistent terminal for them all and MinTTY is the closest I know of.  Regarding using Cmd console, it doesn’t work in ways needed for anything that prompts for a password in the Cygwin-style.  So, ssh, svn and “native git” will fail horribly and hair loss is soon to follow.

 

I’m actually a Linux guy trying to adapt to developing on Windows and for Windows.  Thus, I keep running back to UNIX-like land when my blood pressure gets too high.  *smiley*

 

The WSL standard terminal (basically Cmd but not quite) has an accessibility bug and will not respond to ALT+spacebar to open the system menu.  I couldn’t turn on cut and paste until recently  because my object navigation skills in NVDA reached a level I could find the system menu in the terminal UI object structure and get the mouse over there and simulate a left lick on it.

 

Now if I could figure out why the terminal audible bell doesn’t work for any minty (WSL, MSYS2 or Cygwin)…

    Dan

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Tony Malykh
Sent: Sunday, December 20, 2020 10:40 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Odd arrow keys and speak current character behavior with MinTTY under Windows Subsystem for Linux

 

If you would like to debug this yourself, you can probably start with class Terminal - defined in NVDAObjects/behaviors.py.

But also, just curious, why can't you use normal command prompt if things are working fine there? If I remember correctly MSYS can run in command prompt.

On a side note, I have been suffering from poor editing experience in command line too, mostly over ssh connections, soI have been thinking about an add-on that would provide a better way to edit command in command line - it will try to identify current text in command line and open it up in a fully accessible edit box, then after editing it will update it back in the command line. So whenever I have some free time, I'll work on this.

HTH

--Tony

On 12/9/2020 9:59 AM, Dan Miner via groups.io wrote:

Just wanted to check to see if I am doing something wrong but I am having troubles editing shell commands with minty in any environment that uses it so far (Git for Windows, msys2 and WSLTTY).

 

I just installed the latest versions of Git for Windows, msys2 and WSLTTY in the last week And ran across a “consistent” problem.  I am using bash in its default configuration from these packages (Ubuntu 20.04.1 for WSL2).

 

 

The initial set up to reproduce problem (keeping it simple):

 

Type: echo hi

 

Without hitting return and intending to edit that line, changing hi (all lowercase) to Hi (with a capital H).

 

Press left arrow and “space” is spoken” and if you continue hitting the left or right arrows, you will always get “space” said.  So, it is easy to get lost as none of the under lying characters are spoken.  Thus, I hit the speak current character (Keypad 2) and I get an inconsistent spoken output of “space” or the character under the cursor.  Typical instances it will alternate between the two states and one time I got repeating twice.  To clarify, it would say “space”, “space” “h”, “h”, and cycle back to “space”.  But in this simple example and movement, it will likely just alternate back and forth between “space” and the letter (“I” in this case).

 

A partial workaround I have found is using bash’s readline advanced editing keys.  If I use control+left arrow and move by word, NVDA will speak the words as expected.  However, I still have to deal with arrow key problem and speak character issues within the word of interest.

 

Is anyone seeing this behavior?  It has been going on for many versions of NVDA (easily a year).

 

As sanity check, the standard cmd console behaves as expected with these features.

 

    Dan


Re: Strategies for navigating YouTube comments using NVDA?

Tony Malykh
 

Try my BrowserNav add-on!
https://github.com/mltony/nvda-browser-nav/releases/download/v1.12/browsernav-1.12.nvda-addon
First, you can press backslash to scroll to all elements of the page. Youtube page seems to load dynamically as the user scrolls down, which works well for sighted users, but not so well for screenreader users. Backslash gesture allows to scroll to all the elemnts forward, thus autoexpanding them. Then Press 2 and it'll take you right to comments section.
Second, in order to navigate from one comment to another, you can press NVDA+Alt+Up/Down keys. It will take much less keystrokes to get from one comment to another. This will only take you to comments of the same level.
Another option is to adjust BrowserNav rotor by pressing NVDA+O to navigate by font size plus same style.. This way you can jump from one comment to another with a single key stroke (same one, NVDA+Alt+Up/Down), but it will ignore the level of comment, e.g. it will jump to all levels.
Same strategy works well to navigate on reddit pages.
HTH
--Tony

.

------ Original Message ------
From: "Sarah k Alawami" <marrie12@...>
Sent: 12/31/2020 2:59:51 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Strategies for navigating YouTube comments using NVDA?

I don't use youtube anymore, but perhaps suggest regions for each marker. The aria implementation would get a bit annoying if you arrowed, but I personally would like it this way.

--

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website.

Check out my adventures with a shadow machine.

to subscribe to the feed click here and you can also follow us on twitter

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on twitch. Feel free to give the channel a follow and see what is up there.

For stream archives, products you can buy and more visit my main lbry page and my tffp lbry page You will also be able to buy some of my products and eBooks there.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 31 Dec 2020, at 11:46, Luke Robinett wrote:

Hi Chris,

 

Yeah, that works too. There’s still the issue of having to wade through numerous UI elements for each post, though. As you hit down arrow you’ll notice it doesn’t take you from post to post but rather through all those many elements of the post. The more I think about this, the more I think the only solution is probably on Google’s end. They could do something similar to what Reddit has done – press K for the next post, J for the previous, etc. Perhaps I’ll submit YouTube feedback to that end. Still figured it wouldn’t hurt to see what the bright folks of this list might have to say, though. J

 

Thanks,

Luke

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Chris Smart
Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2020 11:32 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Strategies for navigating YouTube comments using NVDA?

 

I tend to hit E to jump to the edit field where you would contribute your own comment, and then Down Arrow quickly from there.

 

On 2020-12-31 2:30 p.m., Luke Robinett wrote:

Hi folks,

 

I find navigating the YouTube comments section on the desktop site using my Windows machine to be cumbersome. First, getting to the comments section itself can be a chore. It sits under a level 2 heading but pressing “2” in browse mode sometimes reports no heading at level 2 and other times it takes you there as expected. Sometimes it helps to go to the end of the page and then press shift “2,” but even this seems hit-or-miss.

Once you’ve made your way into the comments section, there doesn’t seem to be any easy way to quickly move from one comment/reply to the next. Just pressing control and down arrow to move through elements takes a long time because each comment has numerous elements – screen name, timestamp, comment itself, any links or hashtags they may have included, like button, dislike button, reply button and so on. On the iOS YouTube app using VoiceOver, each comment is treated as a single object and you can use the rotar to interact with it, but there doesn’t seem to be anything resembling that behavior with NVDA.

I pressed question mark to get Google’s list of keyboard shortcuts for YouTube but they’re all mostly related to controlling video playback. Does anyone have any tips or suggestions?

 

Thanks,

Luke

 


Re: Strategies for navigating YouTube comments using NVDA?

Sarah k Alawami
 

I don't use youtube anymore, but perhaps suggest regions for each marker. The aria implementation would get a bit annoying if you arrowed, but I personally would like it this way.

--

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website.

Check out my adventures with a shadow machine.

to subscribe to the feed click here and you can also follow us on twitter

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on twitch. Feel free to give the channel a follow and see what is up there.

For stream archives, products you can buy and more visit my main lbry page and my tffp lbry page You will also be able to buy some of my products and eBooks there.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 31 Dec 2020, at 11:46, Luke Robinett wrote:

Hi Chris,

 

Yeah, that works too. There’s still the issue of having to wade through numerous UI elements for each post, though. As you hit down arrow you’ll notice it doesn’t take you from post to post but rather through all those many elements of the post. The more I think about this, the more I think the only solution is probably on Google’s end. They could do something similar to what Reddit has done – press K for the next post, J for the previous, etc. Perhaps I’ll submit YouTube feedback to that end. Still figured it wouldn’t hurt to see what the bright folks of this list might have to say, though. J

 

Thanks,

Luke

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Chris Smart
Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2020 11:32 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Strategies for navigating YouTube comments using NVDA?

 

I tend to hit E to jump to the edit field where you would contribute your own comment, and then Down Arrow quickly from there.

 

On 2020-12-31 2:30 p.m., Luke Robinett wrote:

Hi folks,

 

I find navigating the YouTube comments section on the desktop site using my Windows machine to be cumbersome. First, getting to the comments section itself can be a chore. It sits under a level 2 heading but pressing “2” in browse mode sometimes reports no heading at level 2 and other times it takes you there as expected. Sometimes it helps to go to the end of the page and then press shift “2,” but even this seems hit-or-miss.

Once you’ve made your way into the comments section, there doesn’t seem to be any easy way to quickly move from one comment/reply to the next. Just pressing control and down arrow to move through elements takes a long time because each comment has numerous elements – screen name, timestamp, comment itself, any links or hashtags they may have included, like button, dislike button, reply button and so on. On the iOS YouTube app using VoiceOver, each comment is treated as a single object and you can use the rotar to interact with it, but there doesn’t seem to be anything resembling that behavior with NVDA.

I pressed question mark to get Google’s list of keyboard shortcuts for YouTube but they’re all mostly related to controlling video playback. Does anyone have any tips or suggestions?

 

Thanks,

Luke

 


Re: Strategies for navigating YouTube comments using NVDA?

JM Casey
 

Hi.

Yes, you often have to scroll down in order for the comments to become visible. Until you do that, quick navigation to find the edit field for instance won't work, nor will searching for a word like "comment" using the find command.

Also it is possible for video uploaders to turn comments off.

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Luke Robinett
Sent: December 31, 2020 02:59 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Strategies for navigating YouTube comments using NVDA?

Hi Gene,

That makes sense that content may be getting dynamically hidden or displayed based on the user's device or position within the site. Good hypothesis! That would explain the seemingly sporadic nature of whether or not I can find the comments section.
As for moving through the comments, that's a good idea about finding something I can search for that is common to each comment. I generally try to use a similar strategy in forums or other feeds by finding an element, be it a button, link, graphic or certain heading, that is common to each post, but unfortunately each YouTube post contains multiple links, UI elements and no headings so that doesn't work so well. I'll try what you suggested and report back. :) I've also emailed the Google Accessibility team with the suggestion of providing keyboard shortcuts for easy single-key traversal of comments similar to what Reddit has done.

Thanks,
Luke


-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2020 11:48 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Strategies for navigating YouTube comments using NVDA?

I'd have to look at the comments section for a few videos but one reason you may be having problems is that increasingly, sites change as you move through them. This is to accommodate mobile devices. The whole page isn't shown, but parts of it are and those parts change as you move through the page. On The New York Times home page, for example, a section called something like other news isn't shown when you are at the top of the page.
If I move to something close to where that section would be, to a feature called editor's picks, then move down, by headings since that is the convenient way to move through stories and sections on the site, the other news section opens as I move to it and I can move through it and see that it is there.
That may be happening with the comments section on Youtube.

When you get to the comments section, look above it. What is above it. Is there an item you can conveniently move to or use the search of your screen-reader to move to? If so, and if it is shown on the page when you are at the top, in other words you don't have to have it open as you move down, you can move to it then continue to move and be in the comments section. I'll add that I'm not sure if the comments section will open immediately. You may have to move back to where you were than wait a moment and move down again, just as you may have to on The Times site.

Maybe this is a good system for sighted users, I don't know. It isn't for blind people since you don't know if you are missing part of a page unless you move through it in some way, from article to article, for example. If you find what you want without doing so, that's fine. But you may miss content you might be interested in on an unfamiliar page and not even know that it is available.

As far as moving from comment to comment, once in the section, when you come to the end of a comment, is there an item that is repeated at the end of every comment that will allow you to move from comment to comment by doing an initial search then using the repeat search command if you want to skip to the next comment. The search command is one of the most powerful and least used methods of web navigation by blind people. I suspect that one reason for this is that it isn't taught thoroughly in a lot of training material.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Luke Robinett
Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2020 1:30 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Strategies for navigating YouTube comments using NVDA?



Hi folks,



I find navigating the YouTube comments section on the desktop site using my Windows machine to be cumbersome. First, getting to the comments section itself can be a chore. It sits under a level 2 heading but pressing “2” in browse mode sometimes reports no heading at level 2 and other times it takes you there as expected. Sometimes it helps to go to the end of the page and then press shift “2,” but even this seems hit-or-miss.

Once you’ve made your way into the comments section, there doesn’t seem to be any easy way to quickly move from one comment/reply to the next. Just pressing control and down arrow to move through elements takes a long time because each comment has numerous elements – screen name, timestamp, comment itself, any links or hashtags they may have included, like button, dislike button, reply button and so on. On the iOS YouTube app using VoiceOver, each comment is treated as a single object and you can use the rotar to interact with it, but there doesn’t seem to be anything resembling that behavior with NVDA.

I pressed question mark to get Google’s list of keyboard shortcuts for YouTube but they’re all mostly related to controlling video playback. Does anyone have any tips or suggestions?



Thanks,

Luke


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Ali Colak
 

I'm sorry, I find it humorous that this is even a topic of
conversation, I would think that a persons attitude towards blindness
and their knowledge of technology would be more important than them
being blind. A tech savvy sighted person with a positive attitude
towards blindness is far more welcome as a moderator than a blind
person who doesn't have those qualifications.

On 12/31/20, Luke Robinett <blindgroupsluke@gmail.com> wrote:
Interesting. I don’t think what Sarah says is controversial, myself. She’s
frankly right; if you can’t translate the phrase, “click on” to whatever
your paradigm is for activating something, be that clicking, hitting
spacebar or double tapping, I think the issue is your lack of computer
literacy more than disability. BTW I’m speaking in general terms here and
not about anyone in this thread. I suggest treating it case by case. If
someone tells you to click on something and its truly unclear from context
what they’re talking about, just ask them to clarify. Unfair though it might
be, we blind folks need to be even more computer literate than the general
population. Using a screen reader is itself an advanced computer skill, so
if one doesn’t have the basics of computers down, they’re setting themselves
up for a struggle.





From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Sarah k
Alawami
Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2020 10:43 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice



I pick it up from reading icons. Everyone knows, at least for now that the
ellipsis is called the "hamburger" or the "more" button" or the "gear" is
"settings." the "book" might be amazon the "mic' might be a sound app etc on
the phone. I can translate sighted speak into blind speak so to say if I
have read the manual and have the app in question in front of me. If you
cannot do that, you will get left behind.

--

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website.
<http://www.tffppodcast.com>

Check out my adventures with a shadow machine.
<http://tffppodcast.com/shadow>

to subscribe to the feed click here <http://feeds.feedburner.com/tffp> and
you can also follow us on twitter <http://twitter.com/tffppodcast>

Our discord <http://discord.tffppodcast.com> is where you will know when we
go live on twitch. <http://twitch.tv/ke7zum> Feel free to give the channel
a follow and see what is up there.

For stream archives, products you can buy and more visit my main lbry page
<http://lbry.tv/@ke7zum> and my tffp lbry page <http://lbry.tv/@tffp> You
will also be able to buy some of my products and eBooks there.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here
<Http://patreon.com/tffppodcast>

On 30 Dec 2020, at 23:04, Chris Smart wrote:

Right, but you, as a screen reader user, don't know it's a mic icon, a gear
icon, solely from what your screen reader has told you. Where do you pick up
that information? From sighted folks?





On 2020-12-31 12:08 a.m., Sarah k Alawami wrote:

You might say "click on settings" or "if that doesn't say settings, click on
the mic icon."

--

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website.
<http://www.tffppodcast.com>

Check out my adventures with a shadow machine.
<http://tffppodcast.com/shadow>

to subscribe to the feed click here <http://feeds.feedburner.com/tffp> and
you can also follow us on twitter <http://twitter.com/tffppodcast>

Our discord <http://discord.tffppodcast.com> is where you will know when we
go live on twitch. <http://twitch.tv/ke7zum> Feel free to give the channel
a follow and see what is up there.

For stream archives, products you can buy and more visit my main lbry page
<http://lbry.tv/@ke7zum> and my tffp lbry page <http://lbry.tv/@tffp> You
will also be able to buy some of my products and eBooks there.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here
<Http://patreon.com/tffppodcast>

On 30 Dec 2020, at 18:24, Chris Smart wrote:

Sarah, if you're reading this, remember that what your screen reader calls
something may not at all be what a sighted people sees. You may say "click
on where it says 'sound settings'" and they may only see a little icon of a
microphone. How do you account for discrepancies like that?

On 2020-12-30 9:22 p.m., Rosemarie Chavarria wrote:

I agree. If I was a beginning computer user, I wouldn't want Sarah as my
instructor. If she's gonna tell people to click on something, she might as
well say "point and click". I say that because I actually had a teacher yell
at me because I couldn't use the mouse to click on something. I too hope
Sarah doesn't teach older computer users or beginners to the computer.

On 12/30/2020 6:12 PM, Mary Otten wrote:

Gee, Sarah, I hope you don't teach older blind people and/or beginners. Much
too demanding for a beginner to expect that. Let's blind fold the sighted
folks and tell them to do just keyboard stuff, no clicks. There isn't a one
size fits all, and often people who have mastered a lot think everybody else
should do the same to the same extent, or they're not worth messing with.
I've seen that with blind supertechies, self-styled, and it is disgusting.

Off tipic, maybe. But I'm just responding to what I dfeel is an absurd
approach.

Mary

On 12/30/2020 6:02 PM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:

Oh no. I tell a blind person click this and click that, and if they cannot
follow my directions, then it's not my problem. they need to learn how to
translate that into what ever that means for them. If they fail to do so,
they will be left behind, and I cannot do anything about that.

--

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website.
http://www.tffppodcast.com

Check out my adventures with a shadow machine.
http://tffppodcast.com/shadow

to subscribe to the feed click here http://feeds.feedburner.com/tffp and you
can also follow us on twitter http://twitter.com/tffppodcast

Our discord http://discord.tffppodcast.com is where you will know when we go
live on twitch. http://twitch.tv/ke7zum Feel free to give the channel a
follow and see what is up there.

For stream archives, products you can buy and more visit my main lbry page
http://lbry.tv/@ke7zum and my tffp lbry page http://lbry.tv/@tffp You will
also be able to buy some of my products and eBooks there.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here
Http://patreon.com/tffppodcast

On 30 Dec 2020, at 16:08, Brian Vogel wrote:

On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 02:32 PM, Arlene wrote:

You’d be a good advocate for blind users who have to fight
with isp providers. You know how they say click here or
there. They have no clue that you are a blind user. I’ve
encountered someone who had no clue that I don’t see.

-
Now, Arlene, I'll probably end up causing you some offense while
at the same time praising you and trashing the clueless sighted, too.

I have been a good advocate on many occasions for multiple
issues. But, at the same time, there are "click here and click
there" instructions that should be simple to follow, while there
are others that are impossible to follow. There are plenty of
sighted individuals (like I have to say this here), and
particularly techs, who have probably never dealt with an
individual who is blind let alone with a screen reader. If you
ask most of your sighted friends and acquaintances who've never
been around someone who's blind when they're using a computer how
they think that would work, they generally can't answer. I could
not have answered this during my many years in the computer biz,
and that was, I would say, for the majority of my many years in
the computer biz. The whole concept of something so visually
driven in the most common user interface is almost impossible to
conceive of via other modalities. Those of us who see "swim in
sight" like it's water and we're Esther Williams and, for obvious
reasons, that's a taken for granted thing. Just like those of us
who can hear do the same for audition. You just don't think about
sensory modalities you lack, or how those would be substituted,
when you have no real reason to in daily existence.

I honestly think it sometimes just doesn't register with some
techs when you identify yourself as blind (which, I will add, is
absolutely your responsibility when engaging technical support -
they can't read minds) and for many where it does, what they are
doing and saying is out of force of habit rather than malice or
stupidity. It's probably ignorance more than anything. But
sometimes you have to guide them, and teach them something, when
they're trying to guide you in a way that can't work. Were
someone to say, "Click on the gear icon," responding with, "I
can't see that, but do you mean you want me to open settings?," is
going to get both sides of the equation something they need. You
get clarity (or hopefully you do) and the tech gets clued in,
however subtly and possibly temporarily, that there is a way to
reference things that is not purely visual. They'll usually keep
screwing up out of force of habit during any given session, but if
you keep instructing them about what you need, they'll often be
willing to rephrase. For certain things, it's worth trying to get
the point across that giving reference points, is something worth
doing. A response like, "Click on the red button at the upper
left is meaningless for me, but is there another button or link
very near to it? If I can find that, I can likely find what's
next to it." There really are not, and never will be, enough
technicians out there versed in screen readers and blindness to
provide support for every product that exists, particularly for
smaller companies. But many techs really want to help, they just
have no idea of exactly how, and you can serve to teach them how
to an extent while getting the help you need.

All of the above being said, make no mistake, I know all too well
that you will get plenty of clueless and hostile (or at least very
passive and unwilling to work with you) techs. But there are lots
of folks who will quickly recognize that you are not clueless
about what you need, and that they, while they may be clueless
about how you get to it, can still find a way to meet you in the
middle where you can both get what you want.

I worked for many years in brain injury services, and I used to
tell my patients/clients who were brain injured and trying to make
their way back into "the world at large" that they would
constantly, endlessly, have to be their own best advocates and to
educate the clueless. It's not a choice, because that's another
population that's such a tiny niche in humanity at large that
there will never come a time when most people they meet and
interact with will have any idea about what it is to be brain
injured or what a brain injured individual might need. The thing
that someone who's had a brain injury has going against them that
most blind people will not is the presumption that they are
incapable of understanding a very great many things that they
can. And one of the most difficult self-advocation skills I used
to teach is temper control when the clueless deserve a shovel
upside the head for how obnoxious they're being and keeping
composure so that you can clearly communicate what you need and
what you're capable of.

Almost anyone with almost any disability is saddled with the added
responsibility of having to be advocate and teacher as a part of
their daily life where the majority do not. But I do not ever see
any way that will change. It's the result of relative sizes of
given demographics in the population at large. When you're a
niche, you're a niche. Rebelling against the larger world because
you have that added burden does not do any damage to the larger
world. In fact, by and large, they couldn't care less because in
most instances they don't have to. But that doesn't mean that
those same people are malicious or stupid, just ignorant, and many
really would love to help if they are taught how that's
appropriately given. And, believe me, the last thing you want is
to have them guess, because those guesses will be wrong 99.999% of
the time.

--
Brian -Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by
Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:] /Pleased with
the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of
where this crazy train goes next. We should know by now there’s a
bottomless supply of crazy./

~ Brendan Buck, /former adviser to Speakers of the House
Paul Ryan and John Boehner/









Re: using NVDA with Bluetooth

Jackie
 

Bob, please try going to your synthesizer settings (control+NVDA+s),
select your synthesizer, & set your desired audio output device there.

On 12/31/20, Bob Cavanaugh <cavbob1993@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi everyone,
It was a post on this list that inspired me to try using NVDA with my
Bluetooth speaker, and to my surprise, it actually worked. My question
is, can I somehow tell NVDA and only NVDA to output to the Bluetooth
speaker, and have everything else still come through the computer
speakers?
Bob





--
Subscribe to a WordPress for Newbies Mailing List by sending a message to:
wp4newbs-request@freelists.org with 'subscribe' in the Subject field OR by
visiting the list page at http://www.freelists.org/list/wp4newbs
& check out my sites at www.brightstarsweb.com & www.mysitesbeenhacked.com


using NVDA with Bluetooth

Bob Cavanaugh <cavbob1993@...>
 

Hi everyone,
It was a post on this list that inspired me to try using NVDA with my
Bluetooth speaker, and to my surprise, it actually worked. My question
is, can I somehow tell NVDA and only NVDA to output to the Bluetooth
speaker, and have everything else still come through the computer
speakers?
Bob


Re: Strategies for navigating YouTube comments using NVDA?

Gene
 

I've tried this on two pages. You can see if it works consistently.
From the top of the page, search for the word more. You may have to search twice to get to the word more that's immediately above the start of the comments section. I believe its part of a button that says more actions. You can see.
Once you start reading comments, search for the word view to be immediately above the next comment. At times, there is material below the word view that isn't the next comment. I haven't looked at it to be sure what it is. I think it may have to do with viewing a series of comments in a thread that that comment started. If so, I believe searching for view again will take you to the next main comment.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Gene
Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2020 1:48 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Strategies for navigating YouTube comments using NVDA?

I'd have to look at the comments section for a few videos but one reason you
may be having problems is that increasingly, sites change as you move
through them. This is to accommodate mobile devices. The whole page isn't
shown, but parts of it are and those parts change as you move through the
page. On The New York Times home page, for example, a section called
something like other news isn't shown when you are at the top of the page.
If I move to something close to where that section would be, to a feature
called editor's picks, then move down, by headings since that is the
convenient way to move through stories and sections on the site, the other
news section opens as I move to it and I can move through it and see that it
is there.
That may be happening with the comments section on Youtube.

When you get to the comments section, look above it. What is above it. Is
there an item you can conveniently move to or use the search of your
screen-reader to move to? If so, and if it is shown on the page when you
are at the top, in other words you don't have to have it open as you move
down, you can move to it then continue to move and be in the comments
section. I'll add that I'm not sure if the comments section will open
immediately. You may have to move back to where you were than wait a moment
and move down again, just as you may have to on The Times site.

Maybe this is a good system for sighted users, I don't know. It isn't for
blind people since you don't know if you are missing part of a page unless
you move through it in some way, from article to article, for example. If
you find what you want without doing so, that's fine. But you may miss
content you might be interested in on an unfamiliar page and not even know
that it is available.

As far as moving from comment to comment, once in the section, when you come
to the end of a comment, is there an item that is repeated at the end of
every comment that will allow you to move from comment to comment by doing
an initial search then using the repeat search command if you want to skip
to the next comment. The search command is one of the most powerful and
least used methods of web navigation by blind people. I suspect that one
reason for this is that it isn't taught thoroughly in a lot of training
material.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Luke Robinett
Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2020 1:30 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Strategies for navigating YouTube comments using NVDA?



Hi folks,



I find navigating the YouTube comments section on the desktop site using my
Windows machine to be cumbersome. First, getting to the comments section
itself can be a chore. It sits under a level 2 heading but pressing “2” in
browse mode sometimes reports no heading at level 2 and other times it takes
you there as expected. Sometimes it helps to go to the end of the page and
then press shift “2,” but even this seems hit-or-miss.

Once you’ve made your way into the comments section, there doesn’t seem to
be any easy way to quickly move from one comment/reply to the next. Just
pressing control and down arrow to move through elements takes a long time
because each comment has numerous elements – screen name, timestamp, comment
itself, any links or hashtags they may have included, like button, dislike
button, reply button and so on. On the iOS YouTube app using VoiceOver, each
comment is treated as a single object and you can use the rotar to interact
with it, but there doesn’t seem to be anything resembling that behavior with
NVDA.

I pressed question mark to get Google’s list of keyboard shortcuts for
YouTube but they’re all mostly related to controlling video playback. Does
anyone have any tips or suggestions?



Thanks,

Luke


Re: Strategies for navigating YouTube comments using NVDA?

Luke Robinett <blindgroupsluke@...>
 

Right, the Reddit system isn't perfect but at least it's there. Agreed they would need to use different keys since J and K are assigned to video playback functions.

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of David Csercsics
Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2020 12:17 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Strategies for navigating YouTube comments using NVDA?

I'd also like to point out that the comment system for Reddit seems to be a bit broken at least with firefox, since pressing j and k doesn't automatically read the focused comment, though it does seem to move you there.

I'm not sure how this would work for Youtube either, because several of the letters are already used for video playback controls.


Re: Strategies for navigating YouTube comments using NVDA?

David Csercsics <bleeblat@...>
 

I'd also like to point out that the comment system for Reddit seems to be a bit broken at least with firefox, since pressing j and k doesn't automatically read the focused comment, though it does seem to move you there.

 I'm not sure how this would work for Youtube either, because several of the letters are already used for video playback controls.


Re: How to turn off NVDA

Bob Cavanaugh <cavbob1993@...>
 

If I were to guess, the person writing us is a sighted friend of
someone who needs NVDA, but this person is helping set up the
computer. Once things are set up, this is likely to not be an issue.

On 12/31/20, Robert Doc Wright godfearer <godfearer@comcast.net> wrote:
Is the reason why you don't won't NVDA on is that there will be multiple
users? If so why not create a separate profile for the person who does not
need NVDA. In that profile you can go to startup tab in task manager and
disable NVDA and it should not come up for that profile. Then each person
can choose their name at the login screen and have what they need.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Food Posse" <allaboutfoodandfun@hotmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Monday, December 28, 2020 7:25 AM
Subject: [nvda] How to turn off NVDA


Can anyone help to fully turn off NVDA?

We are trying to set up a new computer for a friend and installed NVDA.
We are not familiar with screen readers so we launched NVDA to test it
for her. Then we tried to quit NVDA with insert + Q then OK, but NVDA
continued to run. No matter what we tried to quit, NVDA continued to
run. We finally went to the task manager to end task to stop NVDA. But
then NVDA automatically came back on whenever we installed or launched a
new program. We tried searching online for help but the Insert + Q or
Exit was the only option offered. But that option does not work for us.

When we turned Narrator on and off, it stayed off until we selected to
activate it. Is there a similar setting or way to turn off NVDA and for
it to stay off until we select to turn it on? Thank you for any help
the group can offer.













Re: Strategies for navigating YouTube comments using NVDA?

Luke Robinett <blindgroupsluke@...>
 

Hi Gene,

That makes sense that content may be getting dynamically hidden or displayed based on the user's device or position within the site. Good hypothesis! That would explain the seemingly sporadic nature of whether or not I can find the comments section.
As for moving through the comments, that's a good idea about finding something I can search for that is common to each comment. I generally try to use a similar strategy in forums or other feeds by finding an element, be it a button, link, graphic or certain heading, that is common to each post, but unfortunately each YouTube post contains multiple links, UI elements and no headings so that doesn't work so well. I'll try what you suggested and report back. :)
I've also emailed the Google Accessibility team with the suggestion of providing keyboard shortcuts for easy single-key traversal of comments similar to what Reddit has done.

Thanks,
Luke

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2020 11:48 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Strategies for navigating YouTube comments using NVDA?

I'd have to look at the comments section for a few videos but one reason you may be having problems is that increasingly, sites change as you move through them. This is to accommodate mobile devices. The whole page isn't shown, but parts of it are and those parts change as you move through the page. On The New York Times home page, for example, a section called something like other news isn't shown when you are at the top of the page.
If I move to something close to where that section would be, to a feature called editor's picks, then move down, by headings since that is the convenient way to move through stories and sections on the site, the other news section opens as I move to it and I can move through it and see that it is there.
That may be happening with the comments section on Youtube.

When you get to the comments section, look above it. What is above it. Is there an item you can conveniently move to or use the search of your screen-reader to move to? If so, and if it is shown on the page when you are at the top, in other words you don't have to have it open as you move down, you can move to it then continue to move and be in the comments section. I'll add that I'm not sure if the comments section will open immediately. You may have to move back to where you were than wait a moment and move down again, just as you may have to on The Times site.

Maybe this is a good system for sighted users, I don't know. It isn't for blind people since you don't know if you are missing part of a page unless you move through it in some way, from article to article, for example. If you find what you want without doing so, that's fine. But you may miss content you might be interested in on an unfamiliar page and not even know that it is available.

As far as moving from comment to comment, once in the section, when you come to the end of a comment, is there an item that is repeated at the end of every comment that will allow you to move from comment to comment by doing an initial search then using the repeat search command if you want to skip to the next comment. The search command is one of the most powerful and least used methods of web navigation by blind people. I suspect that one reason for this is that it isn't taught thoroughly in a lot of training material.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Luke Robinett
Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2020 1:30 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Strategies for navigating YouTube comments using NVDA?



Hi folks,



I find navigating the YouTube comments section on the desktop site using my
Windows machine to be cumbersome. First, getting to the comments section
itself can be a chore. It sits under a level 2 heading but pressing “2” in
browse mode sometimes reports no heading at level 2 and other times it takes
you there as expected. Sometimes it helps to go to the end of the page and
then press shift “2,” but even this seems hit-or-miss.

Once you’ve made your way into the comments section, there doesn’t seem to
be any easy way to quickly move from one comment/reply to the next. Just
pressing control and down arrow to move through elements takes a long time
because each comment has numerous elements – screen name, timestamp, comment
itself, any links or hashtags they may have included, like button, dislike
button, reply button and so on. On the iOS YouTube app using VoiceOver, each
comment is treated as a single object and you can use the rotar to interact
with it, but there doesn’t seem to be anything resembling that behavior with
NVDA.

I pressed question mark to get Google’s list of keyboard shortcuts for
YouTube but they’re all mostly related to controlling video playback. Does
anyone have any tips or suggestions?



Thanks,

Luke


Re: Strategies for navigating YouTube comments using NVDA?

Gene
 

I'd have to look at the comments section for a few videos but one reason you may be having problems is that increasingly, sites change as you move through them. This is to accommodate mobile devices. The whole page isn't shown, but parts of it are and those parts change as you move through the page. On The New York Times home page, for example, a section called something like other news isn't shown when you are at the top of the page. If I move to something close to where that section would be, to a feature called editor's picks, then move down, by headings since that is the convenient way to move through stories and sections on the site, the other news section opens as I move to it and I can move through it and see that it is there.
That may be happening with the comments section on Youtube.

When you get to the comments section, look above it. What is above it. Is there an item you can conveniently move to or use the search of your screen-reader to move to? If so, and if it is shown on the page when you are at the top, in other words you don't have to have it open as you move down, you can move to it then continue to move and be in the comments section. I'll add that I'm not sure if the comments section will open immediately. You may have to move back to where you were than wait a moment and move down again, just as you may have to on The Times site.

Maybe this is a good system for sighted users, I don't know. It isn't for blind people since you don't know if you are missing part of a page unless you move through it in some way, from article to article, for example. If you find what you want without doing so, that's fine. But you may miss content you might be interested in on an unfamiliar page and not even know that it is available.

As far as moving from comment to comment, once in the section, when you come to the end of a comment, is there an item that is repeated at the end of every comment that will allow you to move from comment to comment by doing an initial search then using the repeat search command if you want to skip to the next comment. The search command is one of the most powerful and least used methods of web navigation by blind people. I suspect that one reason for this is that it isn't taught thoroughly in a lot of training material.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Luke Robinett
Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2020 1:30 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Strategies for navigating YouTube comments using NVDA?



Hi folks,



I find navigating the YouTube comments section on the desktop site using my Windows machine to be cumbersome. First, getting to the comments section itself can be a chore. It sits under a level 2 heading but pressing “2” in browse mode sometimes reports no heading at level 2 and other times it takes you there as expected. Sometimes it helps to go to the end of the page and then press shift “2,” but even this seems hit-or-miss.

Once you’ve made your way into the comments section, there doesn’t seem to be any easy way to quickly move from one comment/reply to the next. Just pressing control and down arrow to move through elements takes a long time because each comment has numerous elements – screen name, timestamp, comment itself, any links or hashtags they may have included, like button, dislike button, reply button and so on. On the iOS YouTube app using VoiceOver, each comment is treated as a single object and you can use the rotar to interact with it, but there doesn’t seem to be anything resembling that behavior with NVDA.

I pressed question mark to get Google’s list of keyboard shortcuts for YouTube but they’re all mostly related to controlling video playback. Does anyone have any tips or suggestions?



Thanks,

Luke


Re: Strategies for navigating YouTube comments using NVDA?

Luke Robinett <blindgroupsluke@...>
 

Hi Chris,

 

Yeah, that works too. There’s still the issue of having to wade through numerous UI elements for each post, though. As you hit down arrow you’ll notice it doesn’t take you from post to post but rather through all those many elements of the post. The more I think about this, the more I think the only solution is probably on Google’s end. They could do something similar to what Reddit has done – press K for the next post, J for the previous, etc. Perhaps I’ll submit YouTube feedback to that end. Still figured it wouldn’t hurt to see what the bright folks of this list might have to say, though. J

 

Thanks,

Luke

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Chris Smart
Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2020 11:32 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Strategies for navigating YouTube comments using NVDA?

 

I tend to hit E to jump to the edit field where you would contribute your own comment, and then Down Arrow quickly from there.

 

On 2020-12-31 2:30 p.m., Luke Robinett wrote:

Hi folks,

 

I find navigating the YouTube comments section on the desktop site using my Windows machine to be cumbersome. First, getting to the comments section itself can be a chore. It sits under a level 2 heading but pressing “2” in browse mode sometimes reports no heading at level 2 and other times it takes you there as expected. Sometimes it helps to go to the end of the page and then press shift “2,” but even this seems hit-or-miss.

Once you’ve made your way into the comments section, there doesn’t seem to be any easy way to quickly move from one comment/reply to the next. Just pressing control and down arrow to move through elements takes a long time because each comment has numerous elements – screen name, timestamp, comment itself, any links or hashtags they may have included, like button, dislike button, reply button and so on. On the iOS YouTube app using VoiceOver, each comment is treated as a single object and you can use the rotar to interact with it, but there doesn’t seem to be anything resembling that behavior with NVDA.

I pressed question mark to get Google’s list of keyboard shortcuts for YouTube but they’re all mostly related to controlling video playback. Does anyone have any tips or suggestions?

 

Thanks,

Luke

 


Re: NVDA and outlook questions

Dennis L <dennisl1982@...>
 

It does not automatically read the suggestions as your typing.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Supanut Leepaisomboon
Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2020 6:02 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA and outlook questions

 

I just did some tests with Outlook to see if I can reproduce the issue you mentioned, and it seems that I did not encounter the issue you described. NVDA seems to work perfectly in Outlook, in the to field. When I started typing, NVDA instantly reads out the matching address it finds, and NVDA also reads out the suggestions as I arrowed through them.
For your information, the version of Outlook I got from the about Outlook page is Microsoft Outlook for Microsoft 365 version 16.0.13426.20352 64-bit. I'm using NVDA 2020.3.


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Luke Robinett <blindgroupsluke@...>
 

Interesting. I don’t think what Sarah says is controversial, myself. She’s frankly right; if you can’t translate the phrase, “click on” to whatever your paradigm is for activating something, be that clicking, hitting spacebar or double tapping, I think the issue is your lack of computer literacy more than disability. BTW I’m speaking in general terms here and not about anyone in this thread. I suggest treating it case by case. If someone tells you to click on something and its truly unclear from context what they’re talking about, just ask them to clarify. Unfair though it might be, we blind folks need to be even more computer literate than the general population. Using a screen reader is itself an advanced computer skill, so if one doesn’t have the basics of computers down, they’re setting themselves up for a struggle.

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Sarah k Alawami
Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2020 10:43 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

 

I pick it up from reading icons. Everyone knows, at least for now that the ellipsis is called the "hamburger" or the "more" button" or the "gear" is "settings." the "book" might be amazon the "mic' might be a sound app etc on the phone. I can translate sighted speak into blind speak so to say if I have read the manual and have the app in question in front of me. If you cannot do that, you will get left behind.

--

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website.

Check out my adventures with a shadow machine.

to subscribe to the feed click here and you can also follow us on twitter

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on twitch. Feel free to give the channel a follow and see what is up there.

For stream archives, products you can buy and more visit my main lbry page and my tffp lbry page You will also be able to buy some of my products and eBooks there.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 30 Dec 2020, at 23:04, Chris Smart wrote:

Right, but you, as a screen reader user, don't know it's a mic icon, a gear icon, solely from what your screen reader has told you. Where do you pick up that information? From sighted folks?

 

 

On 2020-12-31 12:08 a.m., Sarah k Alawami wrote:

You might say "click on settings" or "if that doesn't say settings, click on the mic icon."

--

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website.

Check out my adventures with a shadow machine.

to subscribe to the feed click here and you can also follow us on twitter

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on twitch. Feel free to give the channel a follow and see what is up there.

For stream archives, products you can buy and more visit my main lbry page and my tffp lbry page You will also be able to buy some of my products and eBooks there.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 30 Dec 2020, at 18:24, Chris Smart wrote:

Sarah, if you're reading this, remember that what your screen reader calls something may not at all be what a sighted people sees. You may say "click on where it says 'sound settings'" and they may only see a little icon of a microphone.  How do you account for discrepancies like that?

On 2020-12-30 9:22 p.m., Rosemarie Chavarria wrote:

I agree. If I was a beginning computer user, I wouldn't want Sarah as my instructor. If she's gonna tell people to click on something, she might as well say "point and click". I say that because I actually had a teacher yell at me because I couldn't use the mouse to click on something. I too hope Sarah doesn't teach older computer users or beginners to the computer.

On 12/30/2020 6:12 PM, Mary Otten wrote:

Gee, Sarah, I hope you don't teach older blind people and/or beginners. Much too demanding for a beginner to expect that. Let's blind fold the sighted folks and tell them to do just keyboard stuff, no clicks. There isn't a one size fits all, and often people who have mastered a lot think everybody else should do the same to the same extent, or they're not worth messing with. I've seen that with blind supertechies, self-styled, and it is disgusting.

Off tipic, maybe. But I'm just  responding to what I dfeel is an absurd approach.

Mary

On 12/30/2020 6:02 PM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:

Oh no. I tell a blind person click this and click that, and if they cannot follow my directions, then it's not my problem. they need to learn how to translate that into what ever that means for them. If they fail to do so, they will be left behind, and I cannot do anything about that.

--

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website. http://www.tffppodcast.com

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On 30 Dec 2020, at 16:08, Brian Vogel wrote:

    On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 02:32 PM, Arlene wrote:

        You’d be a good advocate for blind users who have to fight
        with isp providers.  You know how they say click here or
        there. They have no clue that you are a blind user. I’ve
        encountered someone who had no clue that I don’t see.

    -
    Now, Arlene, I'll probably end up causing you some offense while
    at the same time praising you and trashing the clueless sighted, too.

    I have been a good advocate on many occasions for multiple
    issues.  But, at the same time, there are "click here and click
    there" instructions that should be simple to follow, while there
    are others that are impossible to follow.  There are plenty of
    sighted individuals (like I have to say this here), and
    particularly techs, who have probably never dealt with an
    individual who is blind let alone with a screen reader. If you
    ask most of your sighted friends and acquaintances who've never
    been around someone who's blind when they're using a computer how
    they think that would work, they generally can't answer. I could
    not have answered this during my many years in the computer biz,
    and that was, I would say, for the majority of my many years in
    the computer biz. The whole concept of something so visually
    driven in the most common user interface is almost impossible to
    conceive of via other modalities.  Those of us who see "swim in
    sight" like it's water and we're Esther Williams and, for obvious
    reasons, that's a taken for granted thing.  Just like those of us
    who can hear do the same for audition.  You just don't think about
    sensory modalities you lack, or how those would be substituted,
    when you have no real reason to in daily existence.

    I honestly think it sometimes just doesn't register with some
    techs when you identify yourself as blind (which, I will add, is
    absolutely your responsibility when engaging technical support -
    they can't read minds) and for many where it does, what they are
    doing and saying is out of force of habit rather than malice or
    stupidity.  It's probably ignorance more than anything. But
    sometimes you have to guide them, and teach them something, when
    they're trying to guide you in a way that can't work. Were
    someone to say, "Click on the gear icon," responding with, "I
    can't see that, but do you mean you want me to open settings?," is
    going to get both sides of the equation something they need.  You
    get clarity (or hopefully you do) and the tech gets clued in,
    however subtly and possibly temporarily, that there is a way to
    reference things that is not purely visual.  They'll usually keep
    screwing up out of force of habit during any given session, but if
    you keep instructing them about what you need, they'll often be
    willing to rephrase.  For certain things, it's worth trying to get
    the point across that giving reference points, is something worth
    doing.  A response like, "Click on the red button at the upper
    left is meaningless for me, but is there another button or link
    very near to it?  If I can find that, I can likely find what's
    next to it."   There really are not, and never will be, enough
    technicians out there versed in screen readers and blindness to
    provide support for every product that exists, particularly for
    smaller companies.  But many techs really want to help, they just
    have no idea of exactly how, and you can serve to teach them how
    to an extent while getting the help you need.

    All of the above being said, make no mistake, I know all too well
    that you will get plenty of clueless and hostile (or at least very
    passive and unwilling to work with you) techs. But there are lots
    of folks who will quickly recognize that you are not clueless
    about what you need, and that they, while they may be clueless
    about how you get to it, can still find a way to meet you in the
    middle where you can both get what you want.

    I worked for many years in brain injury services, and I used to
    tell my patients/clients who were brain injured and trying to make
    their way back into "the world at large" that they would
    constantly, endlessly, have to be their own best advocates and to
    educate the clueless.  It's not a choice, because that's another
    population that's such a tiny niche in humanity at large that
    there will never come a time when most people they meet and
    interact with will have any idea about what it is to be brain
    injured or what a brain injured individual might need. The thing
    that someone who's had a brain injury has going against them that
    most blind people will not is the presumption that they are
    incapable of understanding a very great many things that they
    can.  And one of the most difficult self-advocation skills I used
    to teach is temper control when the clueless deserve a shovel
    upside the head for how obnoxious they're being and keeping
    composure so that you can clearly communicate what you need and
    what you're capable of.

    Almost anyone with almost any disability is saddled with the added
    responsibility of having to be advocate and teacher as a part of
    their daily life where the majority do not.  But I do not ever see
    any way that will change.  It's the result of relative sizes of
    given demographics in the population at large.  When you're a
    niche, you're a niche.  Rebelling against the larger world because
    you have that added burden does not do any damage to the larger
    world.  In fact, by and large, they couldn't care less because in
    most instances they don't have to.  But that doesn't mean that
    those same people are malicious or stupid, just ignorant, and many
    really would love to help if they are taught how that's
    appropriately given.  And, believe me, the last thing you want is
    to have them guess, because those guesses will be wrong 99.999% of
    the time.

    --
    Brian -Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042

    [Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by
    Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:] /Pleased with
    the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of
    where this crazy train goes next.  We should know by now there’s a
    bottomless supply of crazy./

            ~ Brendan Buck, /former adviser to Speakers of the House
    Paul Ryan and John Boehner/


Re: Strategies for navigating YouTube comments using NVDA?

Chris Smart
 

I tend to hit E to jump to the edit field where you would contribute your own comment, and then Down Arrow quickly from there.


On 2020-12-31 2:30 p.m., Luke Robinett wrote:

Hi folks,

 

I find navigating the YouTube comments section on the desktop site using my Windows machine to be cumbersome. First, getting to the comments section itself can be a chore. It sits under a level 2 heading but pressing “2” in browse mode sometimes reports no heading at level 2 and other times it takes you there as expected. Sometimes it helps to go to the end of the page and then press shift “2,” but even this seems hit-or-miss.

Once you’ve made your way into the comments section, there doesn’t seem to be any easy way to quickly move from one comment/reply to the next. Just pressing control and down arrow to move through elements takes a long time because each comment has numerous elements – screen name, timestamp, comment itself, any links or hashtags they may have included, like button, dislike button, reply button and so on. On the iOS YouTube app using VoiceOver, each comment is treated as a single object and you can use the rotar to interact with it, but there doesn’t seem to be anything resembling that behavior with NVDA.

I pressed question mark to get Google’s list of keyboard shortcuts for YouTube but they’re all mostly related to controlling video playback. Does anyone have any tips or suggestions?

 

Thanks,

Luke

 


Strategies for navigating YouTube comments using NVDA?

Luke Robinett <blindgroupsluke@...>
 

Hi folks,

 

I find navigating the YouTube comments section on the desktop site using my Windows machine to be cumbersome. First, getting to the comments section itself can be a chore. It sits under a level 2 heading but pressing “2” in browse mode sometimes reports no heading at level 2 and other times it takes you there as expected. Sometimes it helps to go to the end of the page and then press shift “2,” but even this seems hit-or-miss.

Once you’ve made your way into the comments section, there doesn’t seem to be any easy way to quickly move from one comment/reply to the next. Just pressing control and down arrow to move through elements takes a long time because each comment has numerous elements – screen name, timestamp, comment itself, any links or hashtags they may have included, like button, dislike button, reply button and so on. On the iOS YouTube app using VoiceOver, each comment is treated as a single object and you can use the rotar to interact with it, but there doesn’t seem to be anything resembling that behavior with NVDA.

I pressed question mark to get Google’s list of keyboard shortcuts for YouTube but they’re all mostly related to controlling video playback. Does anyone have any tips or suggestions?

 

Thanks,

Luke

 

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