Date   

Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Devin Prater
 

You know, it would be pretty great to have a listing of the icons and what they mean, for that purpose, so users can look them up if they see them in an article or forum post. Although, some of them make sense, like the paperclip, but only if they're used to an office setting, where paperclips clip papers together, and are used to the idea of email being maybe shown as literal mail... Or maybe that's Word that shows what you're writing on as actual paper, a literal WYSIWYG experience.
Devin Prater


On Mon, Jan 4, 2021 at 11:45 AM Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:
On Mon, Jan 4, 2021 at 12:38 PM, Devin Prater wrote:
Also, I would hope no blind people would use the deliberately obscure, for us, language of "hamburger icon," "paperclip icon," and such like that, unless the screen reader reads it like that.
-
Actually, I'd hope that they do, but, and it's a big one, twinned with what gets announced.  For example, "Hit the hamburger stack/menu button," or, "Get to the paperclip/attachment button." 

The reason I say that is you will, eventually, be given instructions by a kindly but clueless sighted person who says, "Click on the paperclip button," because that's what they see and they know, implicitly, what it does.  It's really handy to have had someone who's instructing you give you the sighted/announced pairs just because you're likely to be confronted with only the former at some point.

But I do agree that, particularly if the audience is a blind one, I'd likely reverse the ordering of the twins, giving the announced name (or something awfully close to it, I never remember them all, perfectly) first with the icon description afterward.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

       ~ Brian Vogel

 


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

 

On Mon, Jan 4, 2021 at 12:38 PM, Devin Prater wrote:
Also, I would hope no blind people would use the deliberately obscure, for us, language of "hamburger icon," "paperclip icon," and such like that, unless the screen reader reads it like that.
-
Actually, I'd hope that they do, but, and it's a big one, twinned with what gets announced.  For example, "Hit the hamburger stack/menu button," or, "Get to the paperclip/attachment button." 

The reason I say that is you will, eventually, be given instructions by a kindly but clueless sighted person who says, "Click on the paperclip button," because that's what they see and they know, implicitly, what it does.  It's really handy to have had someone who's instructing you give you the sighted/announced pairs just because you're likely to be confronted with only the former at some point.

But I do agree that, particularly if the audience is a blind one, I'd likely reverse the ordering of the twins, giving the announced name (or something awfully close to it, I never remember them all, perfectly) first with the icon description afterward.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

       ~ Brian Vogel

 


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Orlando Enrique Fiol
 

At 11:36 AM 1/4/2021, Brian Vogel wrote:
Sorry, Mike, but I have to disagree, and not just in reference to
blind groups/lists, though I see what follows happen more frequently on them.
Anyone, before they impose upon the time of over a thousand people,
should think about whether what they're about to ask is likely already
answered and whether the answers to same are readily available to them
without imposing on the time of others. Expecting that someone will
have lifted a finger before imposing on the time of group members is
not unreasonable, at all, and I have seen many messages over the years
where the effort to type the subject and text took more effort than
distilling what was in the subject to a very tightly focused web
search that would have produced the answer many times over would
have.
I contest the speed point here. It has taken me hours to perform exhaustive online searches, especially when they involve web forums with innumerable threads, on sites containing lots of distracting ads. To be fair, I've also searched online and found the perfect answer in the very first result. This is all to say that online searches are not always faster than posting questions to email lists.
I nonetheless agree, it is insulting to expect the same people who answered the same questions previously to answer each new iteration of identical questions, only because the inquirer can't be bothered to search list archives.

It is lazy, and rude, to ask that sort of question without
having tried to find it yourself, first.
Not to mention, it's not in the user's best interests. Waiting around for possible answers seems like a losing bet, compared to exploring possibilities on one's own. If I had waited around for these lists to yield answers to my questions, my computing would have ground to an interminable halt. This has everything to do with how many blind people, mostly older adults, are taught to use computers. They are taught to be dependent on their instructors for step-by-step directions for everything. These users are frightened by the mere possibility of pressing a key and wiping their hard drives or muting their audio. In a worst-case scenario, with audio muted, a blind user wouldn't hear the prompts informing them that they're about to wipe their drives. However, most typical Windows installations don't even allow deletion of all drive contents; some files are designated as read-only, while others contain restricted permissions. This is all to say, folks, that unless you know where the Windows Disk Manager is located and how to use it, pressing random keys won't wipe your hard drives.
And, unless you know how to select between multiple sound devices and access their properties, where levels are set, chances are slim that you'll end up without audio. Escape usually gets you out of everything if you're unsure whether to keep changes. If changes can't be undone, applications can always be reinstalled, which usually overwrites custom configurations.

2. If you are told, "There's this thing called a web search,"
or, "Google is your friend," or similar that you realize you
deserve it. I have yet to see this response to anything that does
not warrant it. If you ask something that indicates you didn't
follow the practices outlined in items 2 through 4, before asking online
and imposing on the time of others when that's completely
unnecessary, this is a perfectly legitimate response to that.?
You've been lazy and rude; don't repeat that mistake.
First, there is absolutely no way for anyone to prove whether or not online searches have been undertaken before posting questions. Anyone with a pea-sized brain could get wise to the racket and indicate in every posted question that online searches turned up nothing.
Second, it is presumptuous to assume that the information presented online is digestable by every blind computer user. Most list posters understand that their questions impose moderate inconvenience on list members and that they might find relevant answers online. Why then do so many opt for list posting?

3. If you receive a reaction such as those in #5 above, the
appropriate response is NEVER to argue back.? The one and only
response that is appropriate, if you actually do not have the skills
to do your own searching, is to ask for assistance in acquiring same,
period.? Believe it or not, those who gave that reaction to you will
very often be your best assistants in acquiring the skills you need.?
That reaction is meant as a nudge to you to acquire them.

Oh? I've been on blind lists since 1997 and have never encountered a single exchange between an inquirer and a list member regarding online search skills pertinent to specific questions. I have, however, encountered hundreds of excoriations for posting questions that have been previously answered, if not on these lists, definitely online.
Orlando


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

 

On Mon, Jan 4, 2021 at 12:15 PM, Gene wrote:
[With reference to not being able to translate instructions written for the sighted.] Saying you will be left behind is such a broad generalization that it is meaningless.
-
Sorry, Gene, but you are, quite simply, wrong.  Period. End of sentence.

Most computer instructional material is not, and never will be, written in keyboard centric language with screen reader output noted.  I can't think of a single user of a computer who has never, even once, needed to look up how to do something, however simple.

If you cannot use instructions written with a sighted audience in mind, at all, then you will very rapidly get "left behind."   As others, including yourself, I believe, have said every individual, regardless of their sensory palette, lives in the world at large.  And if they cannot negotiate the world at large, with compensations appropriate to their situations, they will get left behind (and, sadly, often do - and often play their own huge roles in that occurring).
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

       ~ Brian Vogel

 


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Devin Prater
 

For me, this is pretty simple. When working with sighted people, I ask a lot of questions, like "what do you see?" "Is {this} on the screen?" "Can you click {this}?" and give instructions based on that. With blind people, I tell them to use the Tab key or other navigation methods to find things, have them press Insert + Tab to see where they are, and go from there. Sure, I might have to give keyboard instruction to sighted users if I really have no idea what's happening, and they're unable to tell me clearly enough.

My point is, use whatever works in context. If I'm reading an article online written by one of the millions of tech news sources out there, it's probably meant for a sighted audience, so I must take whatever keywords I can find and work with whatever application based on "clicking" menu items, and such terminology. But when I read things from blind people, I expect to read a straightforward, keyboard-driven account of how to get things done. Sure, I wouldn't want "in this dialog, press tab, tab, tab, tab, tab..." but I would want something I can follow from point to point, if that makes sense. Either way, even if I read "click file, scroll down to "open" and click that, then scroll down and click "recents," then click "Adonalsium.docx." Then I can follow it, but I know not everyone can, even though I suspect "scroll down" wouldn't be there if a sighted person were writing it. It's all about getting from "file" to "open" to "recent" and so on. "Clicking" is understandable, it's everything else that sometimes isn't. I can mess around until I find it, usually. But not everyone has that kind of perseverance when it comes to computers, and I think we should respect that and not be so hard on these people. I mean, they might be trying to get work done and may not have time to mess around or translate sighted jargon. Although I admit, we blind people probably have five times the amount of jargon that sighted people have. Also, I would hope no blind people would use the deliberately obscure, for us, language of "hamburger icon," "paperclip icon," and such like that, unless the screen reader reads it like that. And in some mobile apps, it does. But I've never ran across that in a desktop app. I mean, it's simply needlessly obscure for the simple goal of making the writer of the instructions look knowledgeable and smart, but doesn't help the reader at all, unless the reference is defined, like "click the hamburger (settings) icon. I could use that. I get the motivation of wanting to know what is actually on the screen. That's why I wish screen readers conveyed formatting information through changes in pitch, volume, or intonation, like Narrator and Emacspeak do. But not everyone has the visual understanding of what things look like, and your idea of what a screen looks like, if you are totally blind, may be wrong. An icon you believe to be on the left side of the screen may actually be on the right, or on the bottom of the application window. An icon you believe to be a hamburger icon may be a gear icon. So, there goes the visual paradigm that you've been instructing with.

So, when working with sighted people, I believe it's perfectly fine to ask and describe visually. But when working with totally blind people, especially those who have been blind all of their lives, it would be just fine if keyboard-driven instructions are used.
Devin Prater


On Mon, Jan 4, 2021 at 11:12 AM Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:
On Mon, Jan 4, 2021 at 11:59 AM, Orlando Enrique Fiol wrote:
The most annoying inanity I experience as a blind bard in a sighted world is the presumption that I should be able to understand color.
-
Oh, I can believe that.  But, in an effort to perhaps make you less frustrated, a lot of times for a sighted person, even when we're working with someone who's blind, and we know all this will still pop out with a, "the red X at the upper right corner of the window," because it is, in the context of computing, automatic language.  It's really not unlike the exchange, "How are you?," "I'm fine, thanks," when everyone knows that the first question is not literal nor is the answer, generally.  It's an automatic script that is sometimes hard to suppress.

Some of the longest conversations I've had with a very dear friend of mine who's been totally blind since birth, and who's my Mom's age, have been about the chasm that is color.  As you have said elsewhere, she can certainly understand that it constitutes a classification based on vision as an abstraction, but it is absolutely impossible for it to be anything else.   Even for the sighted, color description except within classes such as blue, red, etc., is exceedingly difficult when you get into shades, tints, and variations on a color.  And they all get described mostly using whatever the base color is.  I could no sooner describe blue, just plain blue, to someone sighted than I could to someone blind.  It is a visual axiom - you simply recognize it - you don't really have any way to describe it other than itself.  There are many aspects of vision that cannot be translated in any meaningful way to language and the same is true (as you'd well know) of sound.  Most sound descriptions related to instrumental characteristics are well-nigh impossible to describe as other than, "it sounds like . . ."  The complexities involved in what actually creates that sound are, even if qualified in language quite precisely, not anything like hearing it.  They are their own auditory axioms.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

       ~ Brian Vogel

 


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Dale Leavens
 

Could you folk create an exclusive list of addresses through which you can continue this debate off-list please? I’ll admit to having contributed to the surplus off-topic traffic.

Thanks.


Dale Leavens
Cochrane Ontario Canada
Sent from my iPhone.
Come visit our polar bears!

On Jan 4, 2021, at 12:15 PM, Gene <gsasner@gmail.com> wrote:

You live in a sighted world. You are not in a sighted world meaning that you must think and do everything as a sighted person does. You are blind and there are certain things that need to be done differently or work better because other senses than sight are being used.

I don't read print by getting books with raised print letters. I read Braille. I determine when a light is in my favor by listening at a street corner. When I use a computer, I think in terms of keyboard commands unless the situation requires me to do otherwise. I obviously don't use a mouse most of the time.

There are people who would benefit and who do benefit by knowing how to translate sighted computer instructions into keyboard equivalents or, if the program doesn't provide for that, using a virtual mouse. there are blind people who don't, such as someone whose only interests are browsing, e-mail, a certain amount of word processing, as examples. Saying you will be left behind is such a broad generalization that it is meaningless.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: Sarah k Alawami
Sent: Monday, January 04, 2021 10:37 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read



I actually took a music test with the staff alone, learned how to read it with my fingers. I'm in a sighted world. By the way I got a 79 on the printed test . I needed a 70 to pass. I also learned the symbols for boeings, dynamics etc. It's better better than braille music any day.

and by the way I still will write and use click. You are expected to know the terms and use them and translate them into keyboard or finger actions or even probably head stick actions if you have to. I even say tap for iOs or click sometimes if I know the person is using a mouse on that thing. and I back translate "click the gear" as in "click settings" as in "tap or hit space on or touch what ever." S sink or swim in my humble opinion.

--

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website.

Check out my adventures with a shadow machine.

to subscribe to the feed click here and you can also follow us on twitter

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on twitch. Feel free to give the channel a follow and see what is up there.

For stream archives, products you can buy and more visit my main lbry page and my tffp lbry page You will also be able to buy some of my products and eBooks there.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 4 Jan 2021, at 8:05, Orlando Enrique Fiol via groups.io wrote:



At 12:08 AM 12/31/2020, Sarah k Alawami wrote:
You might say "click on settings" or "if that doesn't say settings,
click on the mic icon."
I sure wouldn't especially to my fellow blindies. To the sighted, icons are meant to capture their ocular attention. For us, icons are things to be searched for. If there were no other way to activate an element besides finding an icon, I'd tell a blind person to do a screen search for a specific word and activate the element under which that word appears. This of course assumes that all icons have been labeled with alt text. If not, searching for icons does us absolutely no good.
Contrary to what you obviously believe, even Microsoft's documentation does not exclusively employ icon and mouse-oriented language. If Microsoft has finally come to understand that inclusive language will ultimately help sell more of their product to the blind and otherwise disabled, you, as a blind woman, should have no trouble understanding that the technological vocabulary we've developed is not inferior to the more ubiquitous sighted vocabulary. While being able to translate into pedestrian sightling computerspeak can be a valuable skill, no one will be left behind if they say "activate" rather than "point and click".
Your music teacher sadly internalized a very outmoded thinking about blind assimilation--namely, that we must constantly think and act as though we were sighted, completely denying and denigrating our valid reality. I have read Braille music fluently for forty years. In many ways, I consider Braille notation more efficient and comprehensible than print notation. Yet, I've taught dozens of sighted students to read their staves from scratch because I followed my blind theory teacher's advice to "Learn the staff, Orly. You'll need it someday when you teach." Although I can teach the staff in my sleep, I make no bones about the fact that I never have, and never will, think in terms of the pictorial perspective that staff notation represents.

Orlando Enrique Fiol
Charlotte, North Carolina
Professional Pianist/Keyboardist, Percussionist and Pedagogue
Ph.D. in Music theory
University of Pennsylvania: November, 2018
Home: (980) 585-1516
Mobile: (267) 971-7090










Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

 

On Mon, Jan 4, 2021 at 12:06 PM, Orlando Enrique Fiol wrote:
I can't imagine how sightlings navigate complex web pages without rose/forms mode hotkeys to navigate by headings, lists, links, frames, etc. They must compensate by being able to take in entire pages at a glance, this obviating the need for all these navigation choices.
-
For someone who can't imagine, literally, how we do it you have given about as accurate a conceptual description as could possibly be given.

When once talking about how screen readers handle things in my earlier days with Joseph Lee, and trying to wrap my head around the virtual cursor, he made the very astute observation you echo above, saying that I, as a sighted person, take in the entire web page as a gestalt, and that's what happens.  Even more than just that, just like those of us who hear very quickly start filtering out irrelevant background noise, e.g., fans whirring, a train passing by if we live near tracks, etc., you do the same thing visually for web pages.  Those of us who see come as close as is literally possible to "never seeing" lots of the links that get announced at the start and end of pages that almost no one, blind or sighted, ever uses in practice.  They instantly "don't register" unless we were to need them, and then, believe it or not, we have to visually search for them using the "eye equivalent" of the commands because we so successfully filter out their presence entirely in day-to-day browsing.

One of the things I hope that someone can eventually come up with as far as screen readers go is AI that allows a screen reader to present information to a blind user in a manner that would be largely consistent with how "your average sighted user" would read a page aloud were they being asked to do so - filtering out the detritus unless it were to be requested.  Until I learned about the various reader modes out there I never understood how a screen reader user ever used wikipedia without being driven stark, raving mad within the first 5 minutes.  I don't care about the 5000 links per page that are click-through links in the text when I go there, I just want to read it as plain text (which, being sighted, is exactly what I do) then, if something intrigues me that is a link, going back afterward, finding it, then clicking through.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

       ~ Brian Vogel

 


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Orlando Enrique Fiol
 

At 11:31 AM 1/4/2021, Rosemarie Chavarria wrote:
I agree. Not everybody is good at doing searches. Sometimes you
could search unless you're blue in the face and you don't always find good results.

The whole purpose of email lists is the sharing of personally-acquired knowledge: hidden features, workarounds, accessibility adaptations, etc. Lists are not mere conduits to search engines. It takes longer to chastise someone for not searching exhaustively before asking a question than it does to answer their question or--better yet--delete their email.
That said, it's very frustrating to find the same questions on the same lists over and over, or the same questions posted verbatim to multiple lists. Googling might be arduous, but searching list archives should conclusively reveal whether certain questions have been answered--and, if so--what the answers have been.
It's entirely understandable for blind users to need blind-specific information unavailable via online searches. But, it's entirely unreasonable to expect instant answers to questions that have been answered hundreds of times on these very lists by competent blind computer users (and our sympathizer, Brian).


Orlando


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Gene
 

You live in a sighted world. You are not in a sighted world meaning that you must think and do everything as a sighted person does. You are blind and there are certain things that need to be done differently or work better because other senses than sight are being used.

I don't read print by getting books with raised print letters. I read Braille. I determine when a light is in my favor by listening at a street corner. When I use a computer, I think in terms of keyboard commands unless the situation requires me to do otherwise. I obviously don't use a mouse most of the time.

There are people who would benefit and who do benefit by knowing how to translate sighted computer instructions into keyboard equivalents or, if the program doesn't provide for that, using a virtual mouse. there are blind people who don't, such as someone whose only interests are browsing, e-mail, a certain amount of word processing, as examples. Saying you will be left behind is such a broad generalization that it is meaningless.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Sarah k Alawami
Sent: Monday, January 04, 2021 10:37 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read



I actually took a music test with the staff alone, learned how to read it with my fingers. I'm in a sighted world. By the way I got a 79 on the printed test . I needed a 70 to pass. I also learned the symbols for boeings, dynamics etc. It's better better than braille music any day.

and by the way I still will write and use click. You are expected to know the terms and use them and translate them into keyboard or finger actions or even probably head stick actions if you have to. I even say tap for iOs or click sometimes if I know the person is using a mouse on that thing. and I back translate "click the gear" as in "click settings" as in "tap or hit space on or touch what ever." S sink or swim in my humble opinion.

--

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website.

Check out my adventures with a shadow machine.

to subscribe to the feed click here and you can also follow us on twitter

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on twitch. Feel free to give the channel a follow and see what is up there.

For stream archives, products you can buy and more visit my main lbry page and my tffp lbry page You will also be able to buy some of my products and eBooks there.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 4 Jan 2021, at 8:05, Orlando Enrique Fiol via groups.io wrote:



At 12:08 AM 12/31/2020, Sarah k Alawami wrote:
You might say "click on settings" or "if that doesn't say settings,
click on the mic icon."
I sure wouldn't especially to my fellow blindies. To the sighted, icons are meant to capture their ocular attention. For us, icons are things to be searched for. If there were no other way to activate an element besides finding an icon, I'd tell a blind person to do a screen search for a specific word and activate the element under which that word appears. This of course assumes that all icons have been labeled with alt text. If not, searching for icons does us absolutely no good.
Contrary to what you obviously believe, even Microsoft's documentation does not exclusively employ icon and mouse-oriented language. If Microsoft has finally come to understand that inclusive language will ultimately help sell more of their product to the blind and otherwise disabled, you, as a blind woman, should have no trouble understanding that the technological vocabulary we've developed is not inferior to the more ubiquitous sighted vocabulary. While being able to translate into pedestrian sightling computerspeak can be a valuable skill, no one will be left behind if they say "activate" rather than "point and click".
Your music teacher sadly internalized a very outmoded thinking about blind assimilation--namely, that we must constantly think and act as though we were sighted, completely denying and denigrating our valid reality. I have read Braille music fluently for forty years. In many ways, I consider Braille notation more efficient and comprehensible than print notation. Yet, I've taught dozens of sighted students to read their staves from scratch because I followed my blind theory teacher's advice to "Learn the staff, Orly. You'll need it someday when you teach." Although I can teach the staff in my sleep, I make no bones about the fact that I never have, and never will, think in terms of the pictorial perspective that staff notation represents.

Orlando Enrique Fiol
Charlotte, North Carolina
Professional Pianist/Keyboardist, Percussionist and Pedagogue
Ph.D. in Music theory
University of Pennsylvania: November, 2018
Home: (980) 585-1516
Mobile: (267) 971-7090


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

 

On Mon, Jan 4, 2021 at 11:59 AM, Orlando Enrique Fiol wrote:
The most annoying inanity I experience as a blind bard in a sighted world is the presumption that I should be able to understand color.
-
Oh, I can believe that.  But, in an effort to perhaps make you less frustrated, a lot of times for a sighted person, even when we're working with someone who's blind, and we know all this will still pop out with a, "the red X at the upper right corner of the window," because it is, in the context of computing, automatic language.  It's really not unlike the exchange, "How are you?," "I'm fine, thanks," when everyone knows that the first question is not literal nor is the answer, generally.  It's an automatic script that is sometimes hard to suppress.

Some of the longest conversations I've had with a very dear friend of mine who's been totally blind since birth, and who's my Mom's age, have been about the chasm that is color.  As you have said elsewhere, she can certainly understand that it constitutes a classification based on vision as an abstraction, but it is absolutely impossible for it to be anything else.   Even for the sighted, color description except within classes such as blue, red, etc., is exceedingly difficult when you get into shades, tints, and variations on a color.  And they all get described mostly using whatever the base color is.  I could no sooner describe blue, just plain blue, to someone sighted than I could to someone blind.  It is a visual axiom - you simply recognize it - you don't really have any way to describe it other than itself.  There are many aspects of vision that cannot be translated in any meaningful way to language and the same is true (as you'd well know) of sound.  Most sound descriptions related to instrumental characteristics are well-nigh impossible to describe as other than, "it sounds like . . ."  The complexities involved in what actually creates that sound are, even if qualified in language quite precisely, not anything like hearing it.  They are their own auditory axioms.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

       ~ Brian Vogel

 


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Orlando Enrique Fiol
 

At 11:40 AM 1/4/2021, Sarah k Alawami wrote:
That might be true, however the action of pressing alt t will in fact
make me mentally picture the mouse clicking the tools icon at the top
of the menu bar. It will then pull down to reveal more options etc.
Same with the tabs. I do picture visual images as that's how I was
taught. as we do live in a sighted world and we are expected to know how
things look, to the best of our ability. This is a battle you will
***never*** win!
All I can say to that is that you were taught incorrectly. Millions of your brain cells are being wasted by imagining a mouse pulling down menus when you use the keyboard. This is when forced empathy is detrimental. You don't have to imagine things you've never seen in order to relate to sightlings or "not fall behind". You just need a mental equivalent of a translation table. I know that sightlings point to and click icons, but I've only done that when my keyboards have malfunctioned.



Orlando


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Orlando Enrique Fiol
 

Hi, Rosemary.

When I'm helping a friend with a site or something, I use either
activate or hit enter on that particular item. I rarely use the term click unless I'm helping someone sighted. The other day I was helping a friend to download a music file he got from someone else and I told him to hit enter on the file. Just because a person doesn't use the term click, that doesn't mean he'll be left behind. These are just my thoughts.

Sagacious thoughts, indeed. Anyone capable of reading a computer screen and operating a keyboard can decipher from your instructions that pressing enter activates an element, even if they customarily use the mouse. My sighted fiancee uses her keyboard very little and gets frustrated when I give her keyboard-centric instructions. While it may be easy to translate our procedures into mouse-oriented instructions, many of our most common procedures are entirely different from typical sighted ones. When I search in Windows 10, I use either the windows key and S or just the Windows key; I don't know or care where the search icon is. When I activate my system tray, I use Windows+B rather than hunt and peck around for system and task bar icons. I can't imagine how sightlings navigate complex web pages without rose/forms mode hotkeys to navigate by headings, lists, links, frames, etc. They must compensate by being able to take in entire pages at a glance, this obviating the need for all these navigation choices.


Orlando


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

 

On Mon, Jan 4, 2021 at 11:59 AM, Orlando Enrique Fiol wrote:
inserting more comas
-
Orlando, you cad!   Giving people more comas than they should have, which is ideally none, is just plain cruel!!  ;-)   [Sorry, but this was just too easy and too hard to resist!]
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

       ~ Brian Vogel

 


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

 

On Mon, Jan 4, 2021 at 11:49 AM, Orlando Enrique Fiol wrote:
It is very telling that you think we should conform to the sighted world, which presupposes its supremacy.
-
Orlando, I do not think that this is, necessarily, what Sarah is saying nor what I have been trying to say as well.

It's not an issue of supremacy, it's an issue of ubiquity.

I have met a rare few (thank heaven, to my thinking) blind individuals who are what I call, "Big B Blind," who seem to believe that the blind subculture is supreme and anything not catering to it will not be touched.  Well, that's their choice, and it's a bad one, for them, not for me.

It is not unreasonable to expect that individuals who cannot see be able to translate ubiquitous terms, based on vision, to the equivalent that they use on a keyboard and to do so almost without thinking.  The vast majority of instructional material for the computer is written in "point and click" style, yet most of it is directly usable by someone who can't see if they are able to do a few very simple terminology translations.

I am with Sarah in that when I have written a set of instructions for a sighted audience, but someone here or elsewhere on a blind list needs to do the same thing, that I should not have to rewrite them in keyboard-ese in order for them to be followable.  If someone can't think of "point" as "gain focus on" and "click" as select and "double click" as "activate," then they really, really do need to learn those translations.  And that's not discrimination to say so.  It's a minimal competence thing.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

       ~ Brian Vogel

 


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Orlando Enrique Fiol
 

At 11:48 AM 1/4/2021, Brian Vogel wrote:
But, Sarah, the only way you can do that is if you, at one time, had
enough vision to even have "visual images" as a concept. Those
totally blind since birth do not think visually in the way I do,
that's for sure. And any instruction related to color as an
identifier is off the table, period, because it is not helpful as a
classifier to someone who's never had the ability to process color.
You are uncommonly and exceedingly wise. The most annoying inanity I experience as a blind bard in a sighted world is the presumption that I should be able to understand color.

You really don't seem to get "how you read" in many instances, nor do
you often revise what you've said to more accurately depict what you
actually do, although you will on occasion.
She doesn't even take time to spell check, which would facilitate reading comprehension. I'm not bringing this up to be pedantic or to grasp at straws. Incorrect spelling, reversed letter positioning and typos all make writing especially undecipherable with screen readers. Especially when posting to blind lists, I am cognizant of both spelling and punctuation, inserting more comas and semicolons than sightlings typically do in casual writing, because I want my writing to make speech engines pause at the places where I would when speaking.

Saying that someone who's never been able to see, " are expected to
know how things look, to the best of our ability, " is the equivalent
of saying, of a totally deaf person, that they "are expected to know
how things sound, to the best of their ability." It's a completely
meaningless concept to someone who has never had a given sense, and
even I will say that it's insulting to expect something of someone
that their own sensory palette makes impossible in any meaningful way.
Hear hear! Sightlings adopting inclusive terminology and accessibility standards is not identical to the disabled adopting their language and procedures, since the former involves compassionate choice, while the latter is impeded by sensory limitations.


Orlando


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Rosemarie Chavarria
 

Way to go, Brian! Thank you for putting her in her place. I won't say anything more.


Rosemarie

On 1/4/2021 8:48 AM, Brian Vogel wrote:
On Mon, Jan 4, 2021 at 11:40 AM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:

I do picture visual images as that's how I was taught.
-
But, Sarah, the only way you can do that is if you, at one time, had enough vision to even have "visual images" as a concept.  Those totally blind since birth do not think visually in the way I do, that's for sure.  And any instruction related to color as an identifier is off the table, period, because it is not helpful as a classifier to someone who's never had the ability to process color.

You really don't seem to get "how you read" in many instances, nor do you often revise what you've said to more accurately depict what you actually do, although you will on occasion.

Saying that someone who's never been able to see, " are expected to know how things look, to the best of our ability, " is the equivalent of saying, of a totally deaf person, that they "are expected to know how things sound, to the best of their ability."  It's a completely meaningless concept to someone who has never had a given sense, and even I will say that it's insulting to expect something of someone that their own sensory palette makes impossible in any meaningful way.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

~ Brian Vogel





Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Orlando Enrique Fiol
 

At 04:11 AM 1/2/2021, Hope Williamson wrote:
Nah, I always think click this link etc. Why wouldn't I? It's how
everyone talks. Then again, I say watch, look, and read too. It's just
part of everyday culture. Yes, I think we should conform to most things
in everyday culture.
Dear heart, there's a vital difference between using an acquired term and actually thinking in that terminology. Although I do talk about "watching movies" or "looking for a shirt," I know full well that I am neither watching nor looking with my eyes. Part of the problem, of course, is that these words "watch" and "look" are not intrinsically visual terms at all; they're abstractions. To watch means to observe, not necessarily with eyes. "Look" is a synonym for seek, again, not necessarily with eyes.
It is very telling that you think we should conform to the sighted world, which presupposes its supremacy. You seem incapable of distinguishing between the state of predominance and intrinsic supremacy. Most societies are plagued by this same distinction failure; people believe that whatever ideology, political party, ethnic or racial group finds itself on top is worthy of being there. In most cases, the people on top make it their business to make the rest of us believe that they deserve to be there and that we don't. They also tend to control our civic discourse, censoring the information we get and dictating the terms we use.
Any observant, intelligent person understands that this world is almost entirely designed by, and for, sighted people.
Yet, this does not make the sighted perspective intrinsically superior to blind, deaf or paraplegic

perspectives. Therefore, the choice to adapt to or adopt, sighted terms, is purely pragmatic. In most cases, sightlings understand perfectly well what we mean by "activate" rather than "point and click".

Orlando


Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

 

On Mon, Jan 4, 2021 at 11:40 AM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:
I do picture visual images as that's how I was taught.
-
But, Sarah, the only way you can do that is if you, at one time, had enough vision to even have "visual images" as a concept.  Those totally blind since birth do not think visually in the way I do, that's for sure.  And any instruction related to color as an identifier is off the table, period, because it is not helpful as a classifier to someone who's never had the ability to process color.

You really don't seem to get "how you read" in many instances, nor do you often revise what you've said to more accurately depict what you actually do, although you will on occasion.

Saying that someone who's never been able to see, "are expected to know how things look, to the best of our ability," is the equivalent of saying, of a totally deaf person, that they "are expected to know how things sound, to the best of their ability."  It's a completely meaningless concept to someone who has never had a given sense, and even I will say that it's insulting to expect something of someone that their own sensory palette makes impossible in any meaningful way.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

       ~ Brian Vogel

 


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Sarah k Alawami
 

Agreed.
[snip]

  1. Before you post your question(s) to the list, please search the group archives or do a google search. This prevents the cycle of repeated messages. It also teaches you the user to search before asking for help. Oly when you have exhausted yoru resources should you come to this list. We get a lot of messages, so the archives are full of stuff dating back to at least 2005.

That is on every list I run and in the case of my tech discord servers, that is on there too, to an extent.

--

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website.

Check out my adventures with a shadow machine.

to subscribe to the feed click here and you can also follow us on twitter

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on twitch. Feel free to give the channel a follow and see what is up there.

For stream archives, products you can buy and more visit my main lbry page and my tffp lbry page You will also be able to buy some of my products and eBooks there.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 4 Jan 2021, at 8:39, Brian Vogel wrote:

On Mon, Jan 4, 2021 at 11:31 AM, Rosemarie Chavarria wrote:
Not everybody is good at doing searches. Sometimes you could search unless you're blue in the face and you don't always find good results.
-
And that is entirely irrelevant.  The only way you get good at doing searches is practice.

And if anyone happens to say, "I've tried to find this but have had zero luck," then that at least indicates an effort has been made.  You are absolutely correct that even skilled searchers will sometimes come up with overly broad collections of results, or no results.  But the effort should be expected to have been made before you ever ask on a group.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

       ~ Brian Vogel

 


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Sarah k Alawami
 

That might be true, however the action of pressing alt t will in fact make me mentally picture the mouse clicking the tools icon at the top of the menu bar. It will then pull down to reveal more options etc. Same with the tabs. I do picture visual images as that's how I was taught. as we do live in a sighted world and we are expected to know how things look, to the best of our ability. This is a battle you will never win!

--

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website.

Check out my adventures with a shadow machine.

to subscribe to the feed click here and you can also follow us on twitter

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on twitch. Feel free to give the channel a follow and see what is up there.

For stream archives, products you can buy and more visit my main lbry page and my tffp lbry page You will also be able to buy some of my products and eBooks there.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 4 Jan 2021, at 8:31, Orlando Enrique Fiol via groups.io wrote:

At 01:40 PM 12/31/2020, Sarah k Alawami wrote:
>I disagree 100 percent. I actually do think "click tools" while I press
>alt t, or whatever.

Is that so? Let's test whether your supposed inner thought actually works. Turn off your screen reader and stow away your keyboard, leaving nothing but a silent computer and a mouse. What would pointing to and clicking Tools mean to you then, when you couldn't even find Tools on the screen? Your
claim is entirely disingenuous; you only cling to it out of the necessity to promote a ridiculous position. When you press alt+T, you know damn well that, in your case, and in the rest of ours, it is that key command that is bringing down Tools; no pointing or clicking are involved.

>When I do my sound editing in windows or mac using
>reaper I think "adjust the wave form to reflect blah blah blah." so yes
>I do think in sighted terms. or I'm drawing a sign wave, etc and I'm
>clicking these two points to do such, with the keyboard. so yes you must
>think in sighted terms in order to understand most things now a days.

Your thinking on this issue is downright toxic to everyone compelled to call you "teacher." Sound is not wave forms in a pictorial sense; sound waves move through air, which has nothing to do with 2-dimensional depictions of wave forms in audio editing. I have edited audio for twenty years and have never once thought about drawing wave forms, since neither screen readers nor Braille displays can translate drawn wave forms into any output I can comprehend. At times, I admire what is evident to sighted musicians simply by glancing at wave form depictions of audio. However, I classify that admiration in the same group as my admiration for a myriad visual manifestations of beauty.

Orlando Enrique Fiol

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