Date   

Re: SPSS and NVDA

Lukasz Golonka
 

Judging from the version number Java Access Bridge on that page is
extremely old and should not be used unless you need compatibility with
very old versions of Java.
Since Java 7 or Java 8 (can't recall specific version number) Access
Bridge installs itself when installing JDK / JRE and just need to be
activated in control panel.

--
Regards
Lukasz

On Sat, 02 Jan 2021 08:07:51 -0800
"Brian Vogel" <britechguy@gmail.com> wrote:

If anyone happens to know of a source other than Oracle for the latest ZIP file for the installer for Java Access Bridge please share it.  This is the Oracle page on <https://docs.oracle.com/javase/accessbridge/2.0.2/setup.htm>Installing Java Access Bridge v2.0.2.  When you follow the link to download, you must have an Oracle Account to log in, which I created, but when you get to what should be the download page you get the message:
----
This site is experiencing technical difficulty. We are aware of the issue and are working as quick as possible to correct the issue.

We apologize for any inconvenience this may have caused.

To speak with an Oracle sales representative: 1.800.ORACLE1.

To contact Oracle Corporate Headquarters from anywhere in the world: 1.650.506.7000.

To get technical support in the United States: 1.800.633.0738.
----

Well, they've been aware of this since at least early November, which is when I first attempted to obtain Java Access Bridge and had a lengthy exchange with Oracle Support by phone after going through what felt like several circles of hell in the Inferno.  The gentleman I finally dealt with seemed sincerely interested in helping, and was able to replicate this error, and even called me back once.  After that, the ball was dropped.

Believe it or not, I am getting an error message related to Java Access Bridge from the installer for Crucial Storage Executive, their control utility for many of their SSDs.  I recently got one and cannot get this software to install because I have no Java Access Bridge and Oracle has made it impossible to obtain it.

If anyone reading here happens to have contacts inside Oracle whose cages could be rattled please consider this a request from me to do that rattling.  I find it almost criminal that an issue like this, which should have a simple solution, has gone unaddressed for several months after being reported directly to support and to a real person in support.
--
Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  
The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.
       ~ Brian Vogel
 


Re: SPSS and NVDA

g melconian <gmelconian619@...>
 

Bryani will se what I can do. 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Saturday, January 2, 2021 8:08 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] SPSS and NVDA

 

If anyone happens to know of a source other than Oracle for the latest ZIP file for the installer for Java Access Bridge please share it.  This is the Oracle page on Installing Java Access Bridge v2.0.2.  When you follow the link to download, you must have an Oracle Account to log in, which I created, but when you get to what should be the download page you get the message:
----
This site is experiencing technical difficulty. We are aware of the issue and are working as quick as possible to correct the issue.

We apologize for any inconvenience this may have caused.

To speak with an Oracle sales representative: 1.800.ORACLE1.

To contact Oracle Corporate Headquarters from anywhere in the world: 1.650.506.7000.

To get technical support in the United States: 1.800.633.0738.

----

Well, they've been aware of this since at least early November, which is when I first attempted to obtain Java Access Bridge and had a lengthy exchange with Oracle Support by phone after going through what felt like several circles of hell in the Inferno.  The gentleman I finally dealt with seemed sincerely interested in helping, and was able to replicate this error, and even called me back once.  After that, the ball was dropped.

Believe it or not, I am getting an error message related to Java Access Bridge from the installer for Crucial Storage Executive, their control utility for many of their SSDs.  I recently got one and cannot get this software to install because I have no Java Access Bridge and Oracle has made it impossible to obtain it.

If anyone reading here happens to have contacts inside Oracle whose cages could be rattled please consider this a request from me to do that rattling.  I find it almost criminal that an issue like this, which should have a simple solution, has gone unaddressed for several months after being reported directly to support and to a real person in support.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

       ~ Brian Vogel

 


Re: SPSS and NVDA

 

Hi,

NVDA should come with JAB (since a recent release).

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Saturday, January 2, 2021 8:08 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] SPSS and NVDA

 

If anyone happens to know of a source other than Oracle for the latest ZIP file for the installer for Java Access Bridge please share it.  This is the Oracle page on Installing Java Access Bridge v2.0.2.  When you follow the link to download, you must have an Oracle Account to log in, which I created, but when you get to what should be the download page you get the message:
----
This site is experiencing technical difficulty. We are aware of the issue and are working as quick as possible to correct the issue.

We apologize for any inconvenience this may have caused.

To speak with an Oracle sales representative: 1.800.ORACLE1.

To contact Oracle Corporate Headquarters from anywhere in the world: 1.650.506.7000.

To get technical support in the United States: 1.800.633.0738.

----

Well, they've been aware of this since at least early November, which is when I first attempted to obtain Java Access Bridge and had a lengthy exchange with Oracle Support by phone after going through what felt like several circles of hell in the Inferno.  The gentleman I finally dealt with seemed sincerely interested in helping, and was able to replicate this error, and even called me back once.  After that, the ball was dropped.

Believe it or not, I am getting an error message related to Java Access Bridge from the installer for Crucial Storage Executive, their control utility for many of their SSDs.  I recently got one and cannot get this software to install because I have no Java Access Bridge and Oracle has made it impossible to obtain it.

If anyone reading here happens to have contacts inside Oracle whose cages could be rattled please consider this a request from me to do that rattling.  I find it almost criminal that an issue like this, which should have a simple solution, has gone unaddressed for several months after being reported directly to support and to a real person in support.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

       ~ Brian Vogel

 


Re: SPSS and NVDA

 

If anyone happens to know of a source other than Oracle for the latest ZIP file for the installer for Java Access Bridge please share it.  This is the Oracle page on Installing Java Access Bridge v2.0.2.  When you follow the link to download, you must have an Oracle Account to log in, which I created, but when you get to what should be the download page you get the message:
----
This site is experiencing technical difficulty. We are aware of the issue and are working as quick as possible to correct the issue.

We apologize for any inconvenience this may have caused.

To speak with an Oracle sales representative: 1.800.ORACLE1.

To contact Oracle Corporate Headquarters from anywhere in the world: 1.650.506.7000.

To get technical support in the United States: 1.800.633.0738.

----

Well, they've been aware of this since at least early November, which is when I first attempted to obtain Java Access Bridge and had a lengthy exchange with Oracle Support by phone after going through what felt like several circles of hell in the Inferno.  The gentleman I finally dealt with seemed sincerely interested in helping, and was able to replicate this error, and even called me back once.  After that, the ball was dropped.

Believe it or not, I am getting an error message related to Java Access Bridge from the installer for Crucial Storage Executive, their control utility for many of their SSDs.  I recently got one and cannot get this software to install because I have no Java Access Bridge and Oracle has made it impossible to obtain it.

If anyone reading here happens to have contacts inside Oracle whose cages could be rattled please consider this a request from me to do that rattling.  I find it almost criminal that an issue like this, which should have a simple solution, has gone unaddressed for several months after being reported directly to support and to a real person in support.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

       ~ Brian Vogel

 


Re: NVDA shortcuts for Google Meet

Akshaya Choudhary
 


-- Thank you, Brian. I'm aware of these. They are fine, but not smooth enough in real time use. I was wondering if there was an add-on for Google meet, like there is for Zoom.

Regards,
Sociohack


Re: silencing certain reading of tables in NVDA

Andre Fisher
 

Hi.

Turn off row and column headers in the same document formatting settings in which you turn off the cell coordinates. That should fix your issue, and, of course, you can make good use of profiles for further customisation.


Re: Outlook 2016 NVDA not announcing To & CC fields separately

Ralf Kefferpuetz
 

Hello,
There is nothing we can do from an addon perspective, you need to expand the outlook message header. Pls see this link:
https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/msoffice/forum/msoffice_outlook-mso_win10-mso_2016/show-to-and-cc-separately-in-open-message-in/7717805d-141a-4997-a440-0b1579752259?auth=1

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Ramesh Patil
Sent: Samstag, 2. Januar 2021 09:41
To: nvda <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: [nvda] Outlook 2016 NVDA not announcing To & CC fields separately

Sir,

I am using NVDA and outlook 2016 with addon outlook extended. But by keystroke ALT + 3 NVDA will announce both To and CC fields of mail together. we can not able to understand which mail id is of CC and which of To field. Addon developer please guide or any other way to listen CC and To fields separately

Ramesh Patil


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Joshua Hendrickson
 

Hi to all. I don't usually post messages to this list much. The
reason why I rejoined this list was in case I had a question and
needed some help. NVDA is my primary screen reader and in my opinion,
is just as good as jaws. I've never used object navigation in NVDA,
or the different cursors in jaws. This is because I've never needed
to when I was using the websites that I usually go to when I'm using
the computer. My computer skills I consider good for my needs. I
mostly use the internet for downloading books from bard, or purchasing
audible books or making purchases on amazon. When it comes to
receiving computer training or getting assistance, I really wouldn't
care if the person giving assistance to me were blind or sighted.
Just as long as I was able to understand their instructions. This is
a great list and I'm glad to know that if I had a problem I could
receive help from the users on the list who probably know more then I
do.

On 1/2/21, Gene <gsasner@gmail.com> wrote:
When I'm describing how to open the options dialog to a blind person, I
don't say click the tools menu as the first step. I say alt t because that

is what the person is going to do. You don't click, literally, using the
keyboard. Clicking is an action you do with a mouse when you literally push

a button that makes a clicking sound.

If I were telling a sighted user how to do something from the keyboard, I
would also say alt f to open file. I wouldn't say click because that is not

what they are doing. Some sighted people not most, but some, use the
keyboard and I would expect instructions written by knowledgeable people to

use keyboard descriptions when writing specifically for such people.

Much of this discussion is proceeding from a logical falacy, conflating
being sighted with how sighted people do things, as if they all do things
the same way and as if terminology is independent of how those things are
done. There is nothing wrong with describing and using keyboard terms and
methods when addressing the method being used. this is separate from the
benefits of knowing, as a blind user, how to understand descriptions
intended for mouse users. but these descriptions are for mouse users, not

for all sighted people. And these days, with the use of touch screens, if a

writer doesn't know what techniqque a user is going to employ, because the
user may be using a touch screen device or a computer with a keyboard, it is

common to say tap or click. With keyboard users being such a small group,
the writer is not going to say click or tap and than add or press alt, etc.

But when blind people tell other blind people how to do something from the
keyboard, or a knowledgeable sighted person in accessibility uses
descriptions like alt t, there is nothing incorrect about that. it is
following exactly the same practice sighted people use all the time, as I've

demonstrated.

Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: Hope Williamson
Sent: Saturday, January 02, 2021 3:11 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice



Nah, I always think click this link etc. Why wouldn't I? It's how everyone
talks. Then again, I say watch, look, and read too. It's just part of
everyday culture. Yes, I think we should conform to most things in everyday

culture.








On 12/31/2020 10:40 AM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:




I disagree 100 percent. I actually do think "click tools" while I press alt

t, or what ever. When I do my sound editing in widnows or mac usign reaper I

think "adjust the wave form to reflect blah blah blah." so yes I do think in

sighted terms. or I'm drawing a sign wave, etc and I'm clicking these two
points to do such, with the keyboard. so yes you must think in sighted terms

in order to understand most things now a days.

--

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website.

Check out my adventures with a shadow machine.

to subscribe to the feed click here and you can also follow us on twitter

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on twitch. Feel free to
give the channel a follow and see what is up there.

For stream archives, products you can buy and more visit my main lbry page
and my tffp lbry page You will also be able to buy some of my products and
eBooks there.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 30 Dec 2020, at 21:32, Gene wrote:



that is ideology and, though it oftenmakes sense, it doesn't always. I had
swimming lessons in a sighted class as a child, and though I learned a good

deal, I went much farther in much less time while in a program that matched

one instructor with one blind student.

You haven't defined what thinking in sighted terms means. If I'm writing on

a list like this, I'm not going to say, click on tools, then click options,

then click on whatever tab I may want to move to from the default. for one
thing, a lot of people wouldn't know what I was talking about. for another,

blind people do work from the keyboard in most of what they do. I think
about mouse commands when I need to, when reading instructions written for
sighted people, and when describing how to do something to a sighted person.

But when I'm thinking about how I usually use a computer, I think about the

way I use it, from the keyboard. I'm not going to spend the time and effort

translating keyboard procedures for blind people to read because of an
ideological belief that we have to think in sighted terms. When I open a
menu in a typical program, I don't think to myself, click the menu in the
menu bar. Whether I think about it or do it so automatically that I don't
think about it, I press alt and then do whatever I do to finish opening the

menu. While it is a good thing for people who want to expand their abilities

beyond that, that doesn't mean that we have to describe things the way
sighted people do when talking with other blind people. Living in a sighted

world requires certain skills and knowledge. It doesn't mean that we have to

describe everything as sighted people do when we talk among ourselves.

if you do things and function in environments where it matters, knowing how

to do so may be important. That isn't the same as refusing to describe
things when talking with blind people as blind people usually do things.
that is a misapplication of ideology.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: Sarah k Alawami
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2020 11:07 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice



We live in a sighted world. You must think in sighted terms, no matter your

age. I was taught like this by an older instructor of music. None of us got

left behind, and for those of us that did, they dropped quickly leaving the

rest of us to pass. I'm not a super tech, but I do read and observe a lot so

I don't fall behind.

--

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website.

Check out my adventures with a shadow machine.

to subscribe to the feed click here and you can also follow us on twitter

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on twitch. Feel free to
give the channel a follow and see what is up there.

For stream archives, products you can buy and more visit my main lbry page
and my tffp lbry page You will also be able to buy some of my products and
eBooks there.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 30 Dec 2020, at 18:12, Mary Otten wrote:




Gee, Sarah, I hope you don't teach older blind people and/or beginners. Much

too demanding for a beginner to expect that. Let's blind fold the sighted
folks and tell them to do just keyboard stuff, no clicks. There isn't a one

size fits all, and often people who have mastered a lot think everybody else

should do the same to the same extent, or they're not worth messing with.
I've seen that with blind supertechies, self-styled, and it is disgusting.




Off tipic, maybe. But I'm just responding to what I dfeel is an absurd
approach.




Mary




On 12/30/2020 6:02 PM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:


Oh no. I tell a blind person click this and click that, and if they cannot
follow my directions, then it's not my problem. they need to learn how to
translate that into what ever that means for them. If they fail to do so,
they will be left behind, and I cannot do anything about that.

--

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website.

Check out my adventures with a shadow machine.

to subscribe to the feed click here and you can also follow us on twitter

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on twitch. Feel free to
give the channel a follow and see what is up there.

For stream archives, products you can buy and more visit my main lbry page
and my tffp lbry page You will also be able to buy some of my products and
eBooks there.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 30 Dec 2020, at 16:08, Brian Vogel wrote:


On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 02:32 PM, Arlene wrote:
You’d be a good advocate for blind users who have to fight with isp
providers. You know how they say click here or there. They have no clue that

you are a blind user. I’ve encountered someone who had no clue that I don’t

see.-
Now, Arlene, I'll probably end up causing you some offense while at the same

time praising you and trashing the clueless sighted, too.

I have been a good advocate on many occasions for multiple issues. But, at
the same time, there are "click here and click there" instructions that
should be simple to follow, while there are others that are impossible to
follow. There are plenty of sighted individuals (like I have to say this
here), and particularly techs, who have probably never dealt with an
individual who is blind let alone with a screen reader. If you ask most of
your sighted friends and acquaintances who've never been around someone
who's blind when they're using a computer how they think that would work,
they generally can't answer. I could not have answered this during my many
years in the computer biz, and that was, I would say, for the majority of my

many years in the computer biz. The whole concept of something so visually
driven in the most common user interface is almost impossible to conceive of

via other modalities. Those of us who see "swim in sight" like it's water
and we're Esther Williams and, for obvious reasons, that's a taken for
granted thing. Just like those of us who can hear do the same for audition.

You just don't think about sensory modalities you lack, or how those would
be substituted, when you have no real reason to in daily existence.

I honestly think it sometimes just doesn't register with some techs when you

identify yourself as blind (which, I will add, is absolutely your
responsibility when engaging technical support - they can't read minds) and

for many where it does, what they are doing and saying is out of force of
habit rather than malice or stupidity. It's probably ignorance more than
anything. But sometimes you have to guide them, and teach them something,
when they're trying to guide you in a way that can't work. Were someone to
say, "Click on the gear icon," responding with, "I can't see that, but do
you mean you want me to open settings?," is going to get both sides of the
equation something they need. You get clarity (or hopefully you do) and the

tech gets clued in, however subtly and possibly temporarily, that there is a

way to reference things that is not purely visual. They'll usually keep
screwing up out of force of habit during any given session, but if you keep

instructing them about what you need, they'll often be willing to rephrase.

For certain things, it's worth trying to get the point across that giving
reference points, is something worth doing. A response like, "Click on the
red button at the upper left is meaningless for me, but is there another
button or link very near to it? If I can find that, I can likely find what's

next to it." There really are not, and never will be, enough technicians out

there versed in screen readers and blindness to provide support for every
product that exists, particularly for smaller companies. But many techs
really want to help, they just have no idea of exactly how, and you can
serve to teach them how to an extent while getting the help you need.

All of the above being said, make no mistake, I know all too well that you
will get plenty of clueless and hostile (or at least very passive and
unwilling to work with you) techs. But there are lots of folks who will
quickly recognize that you are not clueless about what you need, and that
they, while they may be clueless about how you get to it, can still find a
way to meet you in the middle where you can both get what you want.

I worked for many years in brain injury services, and I used to tell my
patients/clients who were brain injured and trying to make their way back
into "the world at large" that they would constantly, endlessly, have to be

their own best advocates and to educate the clueless. It's not a choice,
because that's another population that's such a tiny niche in humanity at
large that there will never come a time when most people they meet and
interact with will have any idea about what it is to be brain injured or
what a brain injured individual might need. The thing that someone who's had

a brain injury has going against them that most blind people will not is the

presumption that they are incapable of understanding a very great many
things that they can. And one of the most difficult self-advocation skills I

used to teach is temper control when the clueless deserve a shovel upside
the head for how obnoxious they're being and keeping composure so that you
can clearly communicate what you need and what you're capable of.

Almost anyone with almost any disability is saddled with the added
responsibility of having to be advocate and teacher as a part of their daily

life where the majority do not. But I do not ever see any way that will
change. It's the result of relative sizes of given demographics in the
population at large. When you're a niche, you're a niche. Rebelling against

the larger world because you have that added burden does not do any damage
to the larger world. In fact, by and large, they couldn't care less because

in most instances they don't have to. But that doesn't mean that those same

people are malicious or stupid, just ignorant, and many really would love to

help if they are taught how that's appropriately given. And, believe me, the

last thing you want is to have them guess, because those guesses will be
wrong 99.999% of the time.

--


Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to
overturn the votes certified by 4 states:] Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling,
but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next.

We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John
Boehner


























--
Joshua Hendrickson

Joshua Hendrickson


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Gene
 

When I'm describing how to open the options dialog to a blind person, I don't say click the tools menu as the first step. I say alt t because that is what the person is going to do. You don't click, literally, using the keyboard. Clicking is an action you do with a mouse when you literally push a button that makes a clicking sound.

If I were telling a sighted user how to do something from the keyboard, I would also say alt f to open file. I wouldn't say click because that is not what they are doing. Some sighted people not most, but some, use the keyboard and I would expect instructions written by knowledgeable people to use keyboard descriptions when writing specifically for such people.

Much of this discussion is proceeding from a logical falacy, conflating being sighted with how sighted people do things, as if they all do things the same way and as if terminology is independent of how those things are done. There is nothing wrong with describing and using keyboard terms and methods when addressing the method being used. this is separate from the benefits of knowing, as a blind user, how to understand descriptions intended for mouse users. but these descriptions are for mouse users, not for all sighted people. And these days, with the use of touch screens, if a writer doesn't know what techniqque a user is going to employ, because the user may be using a touch screen device or a computer with a keyboard, it is common to say tap or click. With keyboard users being such a small group, the writer is not going to say click or tap and than add or press alt, etc.

But when blind people tell other blind people how to do something from the keyboard, or a knowledgeable sighted person in accessibility uses descriptions like alt t, there is nothing incorrect about that. it is following exactly the same practice sighted people use all the time, as I've demonstrated.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Hope Williamson
Sent: Saturday, January 02, 2021 3:11 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice



Nah, I always think click this link etc. Why wouldn't I? It's how everyone talks. Then again, I say watch, look, and read too. It's just part of everyday culture. Yes, I think we should conform to most things in everyday culture.








On 12/31/2020 10:40 AM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:




I disagree 100 percent. I actually do think "click tools" while I press alt t, or what ever. When I do my sound editing in widnows or mac usign reaper I think "adjust the wave form to reflect blah blah blah." so yes I do think in sighted terms. or I'm drawing a sign wave, etc and I'm clicking these two points to do such, with the keyboard. so yes you must think in sighted terms in order to understand most things now a days.

--

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website.

Check out my adventures with a shadow machine.

to subscribe to the feed click here and you can also follow us on twitter

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on twitch. Feel free to give the channel a follow and see what is up there.

For stream archives, products you can buy and more visit my main lbry page and my tffp lbry page You will also be able to buy some of my products and eBooks there.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 30 Dec 2020, at 21:32, Gene wrote:



that is ideology and, though it oftenmakes sense, it doesn't always. I had swimming lessons in a sighted class as a child, and though I learned a good deal, I went much farther in much less time while in a program that matched one instructor with one blind student.

You haven't defined what thinking in sighted terms means. If I'm writing on a list like this, I'm not going to say, click on tools, then click options, then click on whatever tab I may want to move to from the default. for one thing, a lot of people wouldn't know what I was talking about. for another, blind people do work from the keyboard in most of what they do. I think about mouse commands when I need to, when reading instructions written for sighted people, and when describing how to do something to a sighted person. But when I'm thinking about how I usually use a computer, I think about the way I use it, from the keyboard. I'm not going to spend the time and effort translating keyboard procedures for blind people to read because of an ideological belief that we have to think in sighted terms. When I open a menu in a typical program, I don't think to myself, click the menu in the menu bar. Whether I think about it or do it so automatically that I don't think about it, I press alt and then do whatever I do to finish opening the menu. While it is a good thing for people who want to expand their abilities beyond that, that doesn't mean that we have to describe things the way sighted people do when talking with other blind people. Living in a sighted world requires certain skills and knowledge. It doesn't mean that we have to describe everything as sighted people do when we talk among ourselves.

if you do things and function in environments where it matters, knowing how to do so may be important. That isn't the same as refusing to describe things when talking with blind people as blind people usually do things. that is a misapplication of ideology.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: Sarah k Alawami
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2020 11:07 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice



We live in a sighted world. You must think in sighted terms, no matter your age. I was taught like this by an older instructor of music. None of us got left behind, and for those of us that did, they dropped quickly leaving the rest of us to pass. I'm not a super tech, but I do read and observe a lot so I don't fall behind.

--

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website.

Check out my adventures with a shadow machine.

to subscribe to the feed click here and you can also follow us on twitter

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on twitch. Feel free to give the channel a follow and see what is up there.

For stream archives, products you can buy and more visit my main lbry page and my tffp lbry page You will also be able to buy some of my products and eBooks there.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 30 Dec 2020, at 18:12, Mary Otten wrote:




Gee, Sarah, I hope you don't teach older blind people and/or beginners. Much too demanding for a beginner to expect that. Let's blind fold the sighted folks and tell them to do just keyboard stuff, no clicks. There isn't a one size fits all, and often people who have mastered a lot think everybody else should do the same to the same extent, or they're not worth messing with. I've seen that with blind supertechies, self-styled, and it is disgusting.




Off tipic, maybe. But I'm just responding to what I dfeel is an absurd approach.




Mary




On 12/30/2020 6:02 PM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:


Oh no. I tell a blind person click this and click that, and if they cannot follow my directions, then it's not my problem. they need to learn how to translate that into what ever that means for them. If they fail to do so, they will be left behind, and I cannot do anything about that.

--

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website.

Check out my adventures with a shadow machine.

to subscribe to the feed click here and you can also follow us on twitter

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on twitch. Feel free to give the channel a follow and see what is up there.

For stream archives, products you can buy and more visit my main lbry page and my tffp lbry page You will also be able to buy some of my products and eBooks there.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 30 Dec 2020, at 16:08, Brian Vogel wrote:


On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 02:32 PM, Arlene wrote:
You’d be a good advocate for blind users who have to fight with isp providers. You know how they say click here or there. They have no clue that you are a blind user. I’ve encountered someone who had no clue that I don’t see.-
Now, Arlene, I'll probably end up causing you some offense while at the same time praising you and trashing the clueless sighted, too.

I have been a good advocate on many occasions for multiple issues. But, at the same time, there are "click here and click there" instructions that should be simple to follow, while there are others that are impossible to follow. There are plenty of sighted individuals (like I have to say this here), and particularly techs, who have probably never dealt with an individual who is blind let alone with a screen reader. If you ask most of your sighted friends and acquaintances who've never been around someone who's blind when they're using a computer how they think that would work, they generally can't answer. I could not have answered this during my many years in the computer biz, and that was, I would say, for the majority of my many years in the computer biz. The whole concept of something so visually driven in the most common user interface is almost impossible to conceive of via other modalities. Those of us who see "swim in sight" like it's water and we're Esther Williams and, for obvious reasons, that's a taken for granted thing. Just like those of us who can hear do the same for audition. You just don't think about sensory modalities you lack, or how those would be substituted, when you have no real reason to in daily existence.

I honestly think it sometimes just doesn't register with some techs when you identify yourself as blind (which, I will add, is absolutely your responsibility when engaging technical support - they can't read minds) and for many where it does, what they are doing and saying is out of force of habit rather than malice or stupidity. It's probably ignorance more than anything. But sometimes you have to guide them, and teach them something, when they're trying to guide you in a way that can't work. Were someone to say, "Click on the gear icon," responding with, "I can't see that, but do you mean you want me to open settings?," is going to get both sides of the equation something they need. You get clarity (or hopefully you do) and the tech gets clued in, however subtly and possibly temporarily, that there is a way to reference things that is not purely visual. They'll usually keep screwing up out of force of habit during any given session, but if you keep instructing them about what you need, they'll often be willing to rephrase. For certain things, it's worth trying to get the point across that giving reference points, is something worth doing. A response like, "Click on the red button at the upper left is meaningless for me, but is there another button or link very near to it? If I can find that, I can likely find what's next to it." There really are not, and never will be, enough technicians out there versed in screen readers and blindness to provide support for every product that exists, particularly for smaller companies. But many techs really want to help, they just have no idea of exactly how, and you can serve to teach them how to an extent while getting the help you need.

All of the above being said, make no mistake, I know all too well that you will get plenty of clueless and hostile (or at least very passive and unwilling to work with you) techs. But there are lots of folks who will quickly recognize that you are not clueless about what you need, and that they, while they may be clueless about how you get to it, can still find a way to meet you in the middle where you can both get what you want.

I worked for many years in brain injury services, and I used to tell my patients/clients who were brain injured and trying to make their way back into "the world at large" that they would constantly, endlessly, have to be their own best advocates and to educate the clueless. It's not a choice, because that's another population that's such a tiny niche in humanity at large that there will never come a time when most people they meet and interact with will have any idea about what it is to be brain injured or what a brain injured individual might need. The thing that someone who's had a brain injury has going against them that most blind people will not is the presumption that they are incapable of understanding a very great many things that they can. And one of the most difficult self-advocation skills I used to teach is temper control when the clueless deserve a shovel upside the head for how obnoxious they're being and keeping composure so that you can clearly communicate what you need and what you're capable of.

Almost anyone with almost any disability is saddled with the added responsibility of having to be advocate and teacher as a part of their daily life where the majority do not. But I do not ever see any way that will change. It's the result of relative sizes of given demographics in the population at large. When you're a niche, you're a niche. Rebelling against the larger world because you have that added burden does not do any damage to the larger world. In fact, by and large, they couldn't care less because in most instances they don't have to. But that doesn't mean that those same people are malicious or stupid, just ignorant, and many really would love to help if they are taught how that's appropriately given. And, believe me, the last thing you want is to have them guess, because those guesses will be wrong 99.999% of the time.

--


Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:] Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next. We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner


Re: SPSS and NVDA

William
 

Hi,

Thanks for your reply.

First of all, how to deal with java access bridge? do I have to set up something or install something?

Second, yes, I would like to join the math mailing list. Could I

Do you mean this one http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org?


mohammad suliman 於 2/1/2021 1:37 寫道:

Hello all,

From what I have heard in the past, SPSS is partially accessible. Haven't tested that my self, so can't provide  my experience. I think that there where some accessibility changes in recent years, because a friend of mine has told me that the software wasn't accessible. However, the issue is, since this program is java based, then to have it accessible, you need to enable and configure the so called Java Access Bridge. I am welling to help with this because I have done this a few years a go, I need to remind myself with the details, but this is ok. I also can suggest to try to ask the same question on the blind math list, I think they will be more helpful to you. Let me know if you need help with joining or something else.

All the best!
Mohammad
On Fri, 1 Jan 2021 at 11:36 Sharad Koirala <shakoirala@...> wrote:
hi william,
I have been skipping the part of works that use SPSS as much as
possible and when it is not possible I ask my sighted friends to do
the calculations and give me the final analyses in a word document.
thanks to them for preparing tables of the results and providing it to
me.

Enjoy,

On 12/31/20, William <xsuper.sillyx@...> wrote:
> Well, you mentioned that you need to use SPSSS regularly, so how do you
> use it if it is not accessible?
>
>
> harad Koirala 於 31/12/2020 11:17 寫道:
>
>> hi,
>>
>> my work also requires regular use of SPSS which I have been skipping on my
>> own loss.
>>
>> I had raised the issue about it in the NVDAcon Asia which happened around
>> 2015-16 where Joseph Lee was very elaborate in answering the question but
>> the technicalities could not go into my head :) (I am not a wise tech
>> user). Anyway, the conclusion was that SPSS was not accessible with NVDA
>> and changes were to be made by both IBM (the developer of SPSS) and NVDA
>> to make it usable with a screen reader.
>>
>> Since then, I have been waiting for the development.
>>
>> Sincerely yours,
>> Dr. Sharad Koirala
>> Lecturer
>> Department of Community Medicine
>> Gandaki Medical College, Pokhara, Nepal
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>


--
Dr. Sharad Koirala
Lecturer
Department of Community Medicine
Gandaki Medical College, Pokhara, Nepal






Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Hope Williamson
 

Nah, I always think click this link etc. Why wouldn't I? It's how everyone talks. Then again, I say watch, look, and read too. It's just part of everyday culture. Yes, I think we should conform to most things in everyday culture.



On 12/31/2020 10:40 AM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:

I disagree 100 percent. I actually do think "click tools" while I press alt t, or what ever. When I do my sound editing in widnows or mac usign reaper I think "adjust the wave form to reflect blah blah blah." so yes I do think in sighted terms. or I'm drawing a sign wave, etc and I'm clicking these two points to do such, with the keyboard. so yes you must think in sighted terms in order to understand most things now a days.

--

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website.

Check out my adventures with a shadow machine.

to subscribe to the feed click here and you can also follow us on twitter

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on twitch. Feel free to give the channel a follow and see what is up there.

For stream archives, products you can buy and more visit my main lbry page and my tffp lbry page You will also be able to buy some of my products and eBooks there.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 30 Dec 2020, at 21:32, Gene wrote:

that is ideology and, though it oftenmakes sense, it doesn't always. I had swimming lessons in a sighted class as a child, and though I learned a good deal, I went much farther in much less time while in a program that matched one instructor with one blind student.

You haven't defined what thinking in sighted terms means. If I'm writing on a list like this, I'm not going to say, click on tools, then click options, then click on whatever tab I may want to move to from the default. for one thing, a lot of people wouldn't know what I was talking about. for another, blind people do work from the keyboard in most of what they do. I think about mouse commands when I need to, when reading instructions written for sighted people, and when describing how to do something to a sighted person. But when I'm thinking about how I usually use a computer, I think about the way I use it, from the keyboard. I'm not going to spend the time and effort translating keyboard procedures for blind people to read because of an ideological belief that we have to think in sighted terms. When I open a menu in a typical program, I don't think to myself, click the menu in the menu bar. Whether I think about it or do it so automatically that I don't think about it, I press alt and then do whatever I do to finish opening the menu. While it is a good thing for people who want to expand their abilities beyond that, that doesn't mean that we have to describe things the way sighted people do when talking with other blind people. Living in a sighted world requires certain skills and knowledge. It doesn't mean that we have to describe everything as sighted people do when we talk among ourselves.

if you do things and function in environments where it matters, knowing how to do so may be important. That isn't the same as refusing to describe things when talking with blind people as blind people usually do things. that is a misapplication of ideology.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: Sarah k Alawami
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2020 11:07 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice



We live in a sighted world. You must think in sighted terms, no matter your age. I was taught like this by an older instructor of music. None of us got left behind, and for those of us that did, they dropped quickly leaving the rest of us to pass. I'm not a super tech, but I do read and observe a lot so I don't fall behind.

--

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website.

Check out my adventures with a shadow machine.

to subscribe to the feed click here and you can also follow us on twitter

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on twitch. Feel free to give the channel a follow and see what is up there.

For stream archives, products you can buy and more visit my main lbry page and my tffp lbry page You will also be able to buy some of my products and eBooks there.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 30 Dec 2020, at 18:12, Mary Otten wrote:




Gee, Sarah, I hope you don't teach older blind people and/or beginners. Much too demanding for a beginner to expect that. Let's blind fold the sighted folks and tell them to do just keyboard stuff, no clicks. There isn't a one size fits all, and often people who have mastered a lot think everybody else should do the same to the same extent, or they're not worth messing with. I've seen that with blind supertechies, self-styled, and it is disgusting.




Off tipic, maybe. But I'm just responding to what I dfeel is an absurd approach.




Mary




On 12/30/2020 6:02 PM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:


Oh no. I tell a blind person click this and click that, and if they cannot follow my directions, then it's not my problem. they need to learn how to translate that into what ever that means for them. If they fail to do so, they will be left behind, and I cannot do anything about that.

--

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website.

Check out my adventures with a shadow machine.

to subscribe to the feed click here and you can also follow us on twitter

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on twitch. Feel free to give the channel a follow and see what is up there.

For stream archives, products you can buy and more visit my main lbry page and my tffp lbry page You will also be able to buy some of my products and eBooks there.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 30 Dec 2020, at 16:08, Brian Vogel wrote:


On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 02:32 PM, Arlene wrote:
You’d be a good advocate for blind users who have to fight with isp providers. You know how they say click here or there. They have no clue that you are a blind user. I’ve encountered someone who had no clue that I don’t see.-
Now, Arlene, I'll probably end up causing you some offense while at the same time praising you and trashing the clueless sighted, too.

I have been a good advocate on many occasions for multiple issues. But, at the same time, there are "click here and click there" instructions that should be simple to follow, while there are others that are impossible to follow. There are plenty of sighted individuals (like I have to say this here), and particularly techs, who have probably never dealt with an individual who is blind let alone with a screen reader. If you ask most of your sighted friends and acquaintances who've never been around someone who's blind when they're using a computer how they think that would work, they generally can't answer. I could not have answered this during my many years in the computer biz, and that was, I would say, for the majority of my many years in the computer biz. The whole concept of something so visually driven in the most common user interface is almost impossible to conceive of via other modalities. Those of us who see "swim in sight" like it's water and we're Esther Williams and, for obvious reasons, that's a taken for granted thing. Just like those of us who can hear do the same for audition. You just don't think about sensory modalities you lack, or how those would be substituted, when you have no real reason to in daily existence.

I honestly think it sometimes just doesn't register with some techs when you identify yourself as blind (which, I will add, is absolutely your responsibility when engaging technical support - they can't read minds) and for many where it does, what they are doing and saying is out of force of habit rather than malice or stupidity. It's probably ignorance more than anything. But sometimes you have to guide them, and teach them something, when they're trying to guide you in a way that can't work. Were someone to say, "Click on the gear icon," responding with, "I can't see that, but do you mean you want me to open settings?," is going to get both sides of the equation something they need. You get clarity (or hopefully you do) and the tech gets clued in, however subtly and possibly temporarily, that there is a way to reference things that is not purely visual. They'll usually keep screwing up out of force of habit during any given session, but if you keep instructing them about what you need, they'll often be willing to rephrase. For certain things, it's worth trying to get the point across that giving reference points, is something worth doing. A response like, "Click on the red button at the upper left is meaningless for me, but is there another button or link very near to it? If I can find that, I can likely find what's next to it." There really are not, and never will be, enough technicians out there versed in screen readers and blindness to provide support for every product that exists, particularly for smaller companies. But many techs really want to help, they just have no idea of exactly how, and you can serve to teach them how to an extent while getting the help you need.

All of the above being said, make no mistake, I know all too well that you will get plenty of clueless and hostile (or at least very passive and unwilling to work with you) techs. But there are lots of folks who will quickly recognize that you are not clueless about what you need, and that they, while they may be clueless about how you get to it, can still find a way to meet you in the middle where you can both get what you want.

I worked for many years in brain injury services, and I used to tell my patients/clients who were brain injured and trying to make their way back into "the world at large" that they would constantly, endlessly, have to be their own best advocates and to educate the clueless. It's not a choice, because that's another population that's such a tiny niche in humanity at large that there will never come a time when most people they meet and interact with will have any idea about what it is to be brain injured or what a brain injured individual might need. The thing that someone who's had a brain injury has going against them that most blind people will not is the presumption that they are incapable of understanding a very great many things that they can. And one of the most difficult self-advocation skills I used to teach is temper control when the clueless deserve a shovel upside the head for how obnoxious they're being and keeping composure so that you can clearly communicate what you need and what you're capable of.

Almost anyone with almost any disability is saddled with the added responsibility of having to be advocate and teacher as a part of their daily life where the majority do not. But I do not ever see any way that will change. It's the result of relative sizes of given demographics in the population at large. When you're a niche, you're a niche. Rebelling against the larger world because you have that added burden does not do any damage to the larger world. In fact, by and large, they couldn't care less because in most instances they don't have to. But that doesn't mean that those same people are malicious or stupid, just ignorant, and many really would love to help if they are taught how that's appropriately given. And, believe me, the last thing you want is to have them guess, because those guesses will be wrong 99.999% of the time.

--


Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:] Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next. We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner















Outlook 2016 NVDA not announcing To & CC fields separately

Ramesh Patil
 

Sir,

I am using NVDA and outlook 2016 with addon outlook extended. But by
keystroke ALT + 3 NVDA will announce both To and CC fields of mail
together. we can not able to understand which mail id is of CC and
which of To field. Addon developer please guide or any other way to
listen CC and To fields separately

Ramesh Patil


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Christo de Klerk
 

Hello all

A few years ago I realised that Brian is sighted from the way he described the visual appearance of what was on a screen in a given situation. I then posted an email saying how amazed I was that a sighted person participated at such a committed level in discussions about a screen reader, assisting and informing blind users. Through the years I have notice Brian continuing to go out of his way to assist, advise and inform. The documents he has written have been of immense assistance to me. I have developed the greatest respect for Brian and his opinions. I read every one of his posts, even when the subject does not particularly interest me at the time.

Just recently I had personal experience of his assistance. Those of you who are also on the Windows 10 list may remember the long thread about a very weird Windows issue I was experiencing which necessitated a repair instal - except that Windows would not allow me to do a repair install. Brian stayed with my issue, giving guidance and suggestions with infinite patience. It was astonishing to me how much of an effort he was making to try and get my system healthy again. Some other listers started posting messages of the kind, enough already, time for a clean install, but Brian did not give up. He discovered an article explaining that there was a Windows bug which prevented a repair install and that tit would be fixed in the December update.

The December update came, I applied it and the repair install worked and this computer is now running as good as new. Brian had rescued the day for me and saved me so much hassle of having to reinstall everything, some things which I might not even have been able to reinstall.

This list is such a valuable resource with someone like Brian around to assist and inform us. I absolutely agree with his attitude that people should not be spoon-fed, but also make an effort themselves first. That is the best way to learn and remember.

Brian, thank you so much for the value you bring to this list and the Windows 10 list and contributing to making them such informative forums.

Kind regards

Christo


On 2021/01/02 03:14am, Brian Vogel wrote:
On Thu, Dec 31, 2020 at 01:29 AM, Buddy Brannan wrote:
All of this “sighted world” and “blind world” and what not drives me up a tree.
-
Buddy, first and foremost thanks for your kind words.  Also to all others who've offered same.  It is neither unnoticed nor unappreciated; it's nice to get feedback that the things I do matter and are helpful.

But a number of people have brought up the particular trope noted above, and I'd simply say that if you don't like "world" on either one of those phrases try "sphere" or "bubble."

I think that each and every one of us here has a "sphere" or "bubble" (possibly more than one) in which we find ourselves immersed at times that is not "the world at large."  Each and every one of us also lives in that, too.  I have been involved in community theater for decades, and when doing shows and such I at times am in "the theater bubble."  You get constrained, to some extent, by degree of focus at the moment.  I am also a gay man, and know what people mean in the LGBTQ community when the phrase "the gay world" gets used.  It simply indicates that, in the respect of being LGBTQ, there are times where the "among my people" feeling, and the subculture feeling, predominates over being a part of the world at large.

There are "us versus them" situations, but talking about different worlds need not have that aspect.  We each inhabit multiple communities. We can and do sometimes dive into those "worlds/spheres/bubbles" by choice or circumstance, without there really being a trace of "us versus them" as part of it.  I can get why any given individual has spheres, sometimes interlocking and other times not, where the sense of "being among my people" at  the moment is in no way unhealthy. It's also without even a trace of malice or ill-will toward those who are not in the "my people" class at that moment.  And we glide effortlessly between them all.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

       ~ Brian Vogel

 



silencing certain reading of tables in NVDA

Bob Cavanaugh <cavbob1993@...>
 

Hi all,
Okay this is kind of a weird problem, and one that has just cropped up
in the last few months as Wikipedia has reformatted the table at the
top of their radio station articles. The table appears as follows:
First five or six rows read fine, column and row reports are a bit
annoying but I know how to turn those off if wanted.
The next row contains murged columns with the subheading programming.
The next several rows contain the programming information, reading
that before every row and column announcement.
Then another set of murged columns, this one saying ownership. Again,
NVDA reads these with the subheadings after every column.
Then it's history, technical information, and links. So, by the time
you get to the end of the table, you have NVDA saying "row 24 links
technical information history ownership programming" before it gets to
the actual information in the table. As I said, I know how to turn off
row and column reporting if desired, but how do I stop NVDA from
reading all these subheadings in every row and column of the table?
Bob


Re: using NVDA with Bluetooth

Bob Cavanaugh <cavbob1993@...>
 

Ah, not sure how I missed this until this morning, but just tried it
and it works brilliantly! Now all I have to decide is which output to
stream to the speaker, Zara or NVDA. I think this is going to work
though. Now all I need is a test server to put into Alta Cast so I can
try this out.

On 12/31/20, Jackie <abletec@gmail.com> wrote:
Bob, please try going to your synthesizer settings (control+NVDA+s),
select your synthesizer, & set your desired audio output device there.

On 12/31/20, Bob Cavanaugh <cavbob1993@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi everyone,
It was a post on this list that inspired me to try using NVDA with my
Bluetooth speaker, and to my surprise, it actually worked. My question
is, can I somehow tell NVDA and only NVDA to output to the Bluetooth
speaker, and have everything else still come through the computer
speakers?
Bob






--
Subscribe to a WordPress for Newbies Mailing List by sending a message to:
wp4newbs-request@freelists.org with 'subscribe' in the Subject field OR by
visiting the list page at http://www.freelists.org/list/wp4newbs
& check out my sites at www.brightstarsweb.com & www.mysitesbeenhacked.com






Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Buddy Brannan
 

Hi Brian,

Good thoughts, those. Personally, and for the reasons you mention,I do think I like “sphere” or even “community” better, myself.

Best,


Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
Email: buddy@brannan.name
Mobile: (814) 431-0962

On Jan 1, 2021, at 8:14 PM, Brian Vogel <britechguy@gmail.com> wrote:

On Thu, Dec 31, 2020 at 01:29 AM, Buddy Brannan wrote:
All of this “sighted world” and “blind world” and what not drives me up a tree.
-
Buddy, first and foremost thanks for your kind words. Also to all others who've offered same. It is neither unnoticed nor unappreciated; it's nice to get feedback that the things I do matter and are helpful.

But a number of people have brought up the particular trope noted above, and I'd simply say that if you don't like "world" on either one of those phrases try "sphere" or "bubble."

I think that each and every one of us here has a "sphere" or "bubble" (possibly more than one) in which we find ourselves immersed at times that is not "the world at large." Each and every one of us also lives in that, too. I have been involved in community theater for decades, and when doing shows and such I at times am in "the theater bubble." You get constrained, to some extent, by degree of focus at the moment. I am also a gay man, and know what people mean in the LGBTQ community when the phrase "the gay world" gets used. It simply indicates that, in the respect of being LGBTQ, there are times where the "among my people" feeling, and the subculture feeling, predominates over being a part of the world at large.

There are "us versus them" situations, but talking about different worlds need not have that aspect. We each inhabit multiple communities. We can and do sometimes dive into those "worlds/spheres/bubbles" by choice or circumstance, without there really being a trace of "us versus them" as part of it. I can get why any given individual has spheres, sometimes interlocking and other times not, where the sense of "being among my people" at the moment is in no way unhealthy. It's also without even a trace of malice or ill-will toward those who are not in the "my people" class at that moment. And we glide effortlessly between them all.

--
Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042
The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.
~ Brian Vogel


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

 

Hi all,

It’s been more than a “year” since seeing this post… Jokes aside:

I said this on another list I manage a few weeks ago (specifically, Win10 Forum for Screen Reader Users) which is perfectly applicable now. The below statements are from the perspective of a former moderator of this very forum and a person who has managed mailing lists and SNS (social networking service) groups for a number of years:

Bubbles, spheres, and cultures aside (I personally use the term “culture” in this context to refer to values, norms, and assumptions), the reason for this forum’s existence is because we have gathered here to talk about a specific product. In order for organizations to exist, members must come together with a shared goal. Members then set rules and operate within an organization in order to align themselves with that larger goal.

If we consider NVDA as the force that binds us, then I think it doesn’t matter about one’s ability, religion, nationality, or whatever identity marker one represents as long as NVDA can thrive here. As demonstrated countless times, people have different learning styles and ways of interpreting their computing lives and instructions. Some might be more comfortable with using terms such as mouse, clicks, taps, tabs, modal windows, and so on; others might be more comfortable talking about keyboard interaction, hot keys, sounds, and so on. Yet I observe that little discussion took place as to the unifying force: NonVisual Desktop Access. Therefore, we should come to an agreement as to what constitutes basic knowledge, and then think about translating these concepts into various forms for different audiences (the first thing public speaking students learn is analyzing audiences and situations, which is applicable in an online forum like this one)). And if discussion of NVDA is a shared goal of this organization, then I think it would make more sense to showcase unity under this shared goal.

As for making a distinction between two cultures (blindness and sighted world), although there are times when we need to specify our ability, when it comes to the overall purpose of this forum, it doesn’t matter if you can see, used to see, or can’t see. What’s more important is the ability to understand basic knowledge and be able to adapt your skills in different contexts. This includes teaching and guidance as well: before you can teach a new NVDA feature or a more efficient way to navigate an app or a web interface, you must be able to recognize who you are dealing with – the person or a group you are going to teach. Only then true instruction can begin – not only you can pass on an important piece of knowledge, but be able to offer the most effective tools and skills for the moment with a reminder in the end to students about applying what they have learned in unexpected situations and learning other ways of doing things. For NVDA community, this means teaching people about basics of graphical user interface and elements and how to use apps as a screen reader user (keyboard navigation, mouse concepts, terms used to refer to specific elements and interaction paradigm, etc.). I won’t go into details about specific philosophy on NVDA pedagogy unless asked – suffice to say that I am a bit more GUI centric (that is, I tend to use statements such as “click something” rather than “press Enter on something”; in other words, given the world we live in, what are alternative ways of navigating this space that is efficient for screen reader users while giving folks essential information about the world; an off-topic example is Bookshare, which opened up tons of opportunities for so many people, which I give some credit to helping me finish my undergraduate education).

I brought up Win10 Forum as an analogy above precisely because that forum (which I am an owner of) walks the same road as this forum: an ecosystem-centric forum geared toward a specific audience. I always stress to members of that forum that we are gathered in this space because we are interested in helping Windows 10 become more accessible from the perspective of screen reader users. I also emphasized to members that we must be willing to discuss that operating system in ways that sighted people can understand, specifically when it comes to interacting with app developers. For this reason, I personally am not biased toward blind people and try my best to emphasize impartiality when it comes to screen readers – in fact, we do and did have sighted participants (Brian V included) who have learned many things about the needs of screen reader users by interacting with actual users, and I myself received clarifications about GUI’s and terminologies from time to time. In other words, what’s more important is a “basic knowledge waterfall” that, when streams hit different parts of the waterfall, it benefits folks in different ways yet we are united under a shared goal. That unity is what I always stress on forums I manage, and I hope we can achieve that on NVDA Users list in 2021.

Hope this helps.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Friday, January 1, 2021 5:15 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

 

On Thu, Dec 31, 2020 at 01:29 AM, Buddy Brannan wrote:

All of this “sighted world” and “blind world” and what not drives me up a tree.

-
Buddy, first and foremost thanks for your kind words.  Also to all others who've offered same.  It is neither unnoticed nor unappreciated; it's nice to get feedback that the things I do matter and are helpful.

But a number of people have brought up the particular trope noted above, and I'd simply say that if you don't like "world" on either one of those phrases try "sphere" or "bubble."

I think that each and every one of us here has a "sphere" or "bubble" (possibly more than one) in which we find ourselves immersed at times that is not "the world at large."  Each and every one of us also lives in that, too.  I have been involved in community theater for decades, and when doing shows and such I at times am in "the theater bubble."  You get constrained, to some extent, by degree of focus at the moment.  I am also a gay man, and know what people mean in the LGBTQ community when the phrase "the gay world" gets used.  It simply indicates that, in the respect of being LGBTQ, there are times where the "among my people" feeling, and the subculture feeling, predominates over being a part of the world at large.

There are "us versus them" situations, but talking about different worlds need not have that aspect.  We each inhabit multiple communities. We can and do sometimes dive into those "worlds/spheres/bubbles" by choice or circumstance, without there really being a trace of "us versus them" as part of it.  I can get why any given individual has spheres, sometimes interlocking and other times not, where the sense of "being among my people" at  the moment is in no way unhealthy. It's also without even a trace of malice or ill-will toward those who are not in the "my people" class at that moment.  And we glide effortlessly between them all.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

       ~ Brian Vogel

 


Re: Question about the EMClient app

 

It's an email client.  

eM Client | The Best Email Client for Windows and Mac

(and that's their PR spin on the link to their main page, which I simply copied.  This is not an endorsement on my part.)

--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

       ~ Brian Vogel

 


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

 

On Thu, Dec 31, 2020 at 01:29 AM, Buddy Brannan wrote:
All of this “sighted world” and “blind world” and what not drives me up a tree.
-
Buddy, first and foremost thanks for your kind words.  Also to all others who've offered same.  It is neither unnoticed nor unappreciated; it's nice to get feedback that the things I do matter and are helpful.

But a number of people have brought up the particular trope noted above, and I'd simply say that if you don't like "world" on either one of those phrases try "sphere" or "bubble."

I think that each and every one of us here has a "sphere" or "bubble" (possibly more than one) in which we find ourselves immersed at times that is not "the world at large."  Each and every one of us also lives in that, too.  I have been involved in community theater for decades, and when doing shows and such I at times am in "the theater bubble."  You get constrained, to some extent, by degree of focus at the moment.  I am also a gay man, and know what people mean in the LGBTQ community when the phrase "the gay world" gets used.  It simply indicates that, in the respect of being LGBTQ, there are times where the "among my people" feeling, and the subculture feeling, predominates over being a part of the world at large.

There are "us versus them" situations, but talking about different worlds need not have that aspect.  We each inhabit multiple communities. We can and do sometimes dive into those "worlds/spheres/bubbles" by choice or circumstance, without there really being a trace of "us versus them" as part of it.  I can get why any given individual has spheres, sometimes interlocking and other times not, where the sense of "being among my people" at  the moment is in no way unhealthy. It's also without even a trace of malice or ill-will toward those who are not in the "my people" class at that moment.  And we glide effortlessly between them all.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

       ~ Brian Vogel

 


Re: Question about the EMClient app

Lino Morales
 

What does this here M Client do?

On 1/1/2021 9:05 AM, Lauren Burger wrote:

Hello.  My name is Lauren.  I starting the EMClient program. I am hard time getting into it with NVDA.  I would like to know how to sign into it and use it accessibly with NVDA. Please let me know. Thank you for your consideration.

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

6461 - 6480 of 86664