Date   

Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

 

I agree with you dale.

For me you here what others say mostly.

I don't have the answers.

And as for sheltered workshops, yeah I am against those to or at least I was.

As much as our government says there are jobs, if the normals have issues getting em then any disabled person has a harder time of it even if he or she is white which I am.

Point is, they feed you on all sorts of stuff saying you will succeed when in reality being helpless while not nice was probably better than knowing you had no where to go.

Thats what I found out the hard way 20 years back.

A sheltered workshop, yeah, I don't want to be lumped into a disabled warehouse or a home for the stereotipical disabled, but that was 20 years ago.

I'd be happy if I went there now.

The normal world left me behind in 2010 and maybe slightly before that, and as far as I care I don't owe it any favors.

If I didn't have a family, I'd be with the rest in the warehouse.

Who knows by the time they die off I will probably be ready to join them.

I know a lot of people without a job or steady income.

I know a few exceptions but you need to be in the right place and time.

As for touch devices.

Its something I'd like to do, but my spacial awareness just isn't good enough for me to use them even though I tried with an iphone 6 a few times.

I couldn't input my security code even though I tried and the phone locked up so I took it in to get it reset then it got taken away and thats it.

Not sure but maybe I am a generation out at least thats what I tell myself.



On 31/12/2020 6:14 pm, Dale Leavens wrote:
I just want to add how sad I feel that this topic has come up at all and that it has persisted so long and yet here I am adding to it.

Over my 7 decades as a blind man the one consistent observation I continue to experience is that atitude of the blind that blindness related employment should be provided preference to blind candidates rather than the most capable and/or competent persons.  Often these are the same sort who would object to sheltered workshops but really what is the difference?

The Windows environment and mouse access is never a system blind persons would ever have created so as a result if we intend to access the technology it will of necessity be a question of compromise.

Similarly if we as blind persons were to create cities we wouldn’t use coloured lights as signals but if we are to function and participate we will have to adapt.  We probably want seeing persons to orient us to such environments too.  Certainly I do.

I was a long time believing that a touch screen device like the iPhone could ever be accessible and if so even practical however it is now pretty well exclusively my device for interaction with the world but this is the exception.

I recently acquired a large air filter which is touch screen and totally inaccessible.  Similarly our kitchen range is hardly accessible but with markings we are getting by.

More to the point it was a sighted daughter which made access possible.

We have three seeing kids, one girl has made most of her teaching career teaching children with behavioral issues although she is not so afflicted.  Our other daughter is a teacher of the visually impaired and has recently become certified as a orientation and mobility instructor.  I don’t see how her vision should disqualify her for those functions and I would propose her background with blind parents might actually contribute to her suitability.

Now retired, I was a physiotherapist in a variety of settings primarily interested in acquired brain injury.  Not everyone felt I was suitable for the role but once I made my way into advanced courses it was soon understood that blindness gave me some advantages and some disadvantages, just as others in the programmes had strengths and weaknesses.

What is my point?

This topic demonstrates that prejudice is live and well in the blindness community just like in the general population.

I don’t really know what Brian’s role is in the NVDA project but I hope it is his competence we judge him by.

Cheers.


Dale Leavens
Cochrane Ontario Canada
.
Come visit our polar bears!

On Dec 30, 2020, at 11:44 PM, Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:

On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 11:25 PM, Gene wrote:
Gently encouraging it is one thing but I think going beyond that isn't a good idea.
-
And whether we're talking about children, or adults, one generally only gets what one expects or demands.

I am not here, or anywhere, to "gently encourage" as my primary mode of operation.  Most people don't need "gentle encouragement," but those who clearly do get it and have gotten it from me.  Those who expect to be spoon-fed, and they do pop up occasionally, need to be promptly disabused of the notion that this is OK, anywhere.

And it is not unreasonable to demand, not request, but demand, that participants on any venue where archives exist know how to reference them and, if they don't, make acquiring that skill a priority.  Nor is it unreasonable to expect that members in a venue such as this one be a little proactive on their own behalves. If you see the answer to a question that you think you'll need at some point in the future, then please file that somewhere, don't ask the same question the next day or next week.  Or, better yet, if you recall you've seen it then ask about how you can find that question on the archives rather than asking the question again.  You can learn something, and so can many others reading, that is not learned via the regurgitating something just answered.

Learn how to use the magnificent features that this Groups.io platform gives you such as the Mute this Topic link when a topic goes on longer than you'd like and you've lost interest.  Or the Reply to Sender link to take things off-group when that's appropriate.  Or setting up topic-preview if you're overwhelmed by the volume of email from any given Groups.io group you participate on.  (See:  Controlling the Messages You Receive via E-Mail from Groups.io [docx format])  I'm quite sure that there are many tired of this topic and, if they are, they should hit that "Mute this topic" link to keep from getting any more messages from this topic.

Each and every message sent is going out, as of this evening, to 1440 people, and that's an actual imposition on their time.  Everyone should be considering this before each and every post they make.  I did before making this one, but a great deal of the information in it allows them to control their own group e-mail destiny, so it's worth it.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next.  We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

        ~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner 

 


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Lenron
 

I think you have the right idea about it Gene. If you can explain
something how you would do it as a blind person to another why not.
Being able to adapt to situations is a good thing. If I can cut down
on questions you might have I will give a little extra info from the
start, not wait until you ask for every single step.

On 12/30/20, Gene <gsasner@gmail.com> wrote:
that is ideology and, though it oftenmakes sense, it doesn't always. I had

swimming lessons in a sighted class as a child, and though I learned a good

deal, I went much farther in much less time while in a program that matched

one instructor with one blind student.

You haven't defined what thinking in sighted terms means. If I'm writing on

a list like this, I'm not going to say, click on tools, then click options,

then click on whatever tab I may want to move to from the default. for one

thing, a lot of people wouldn't know what I was talking about. for another,

blind people do work from the keyboard in most of what they do. I think
about mouse commands when I need to, when reading instructions written for
sighted people, and when describing how to do something to a sighted person.

But when I'm thinking about how I usually use a computer, I think about the

way I use it, from the keyboard. I'm not going to spend the time and effort

translating keyboard procedures for blind people to read because of an
ideological belief that we have to think in sighted terms. When I open a
menu in a typical program, I don't think to myself, click the menu in the
menu bar. Whether I think about it or do it so automatically that I don't
think about it, I press alt and then do whatever I do to finish opening the

menu. While it is a good thing for people who want to expand their
abilities beyond that, that doesn't mean that we have to describe things the

way sighted people do when talking with other blind people. Living in a
sighted world requires certain skills and knowledge. It doesn't mean that
we have to describe everything as sighted people do when we talk among
ourselves.

if you do things and function in environments where it matters, knowing how

to do so may be important. That isn't the same as refusing to describe
things when talking with blind people as blind people usually do things.
that is a misapplication of ideology.

Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: Sarah k Alawami
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2020 11:07 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice



We live in a sighted world. You must think in sighted terms, no matter your

age. I was taught like this by an older instructor of music. None of us got

left behind, and for those of us that did, they dropped quickly leaving the

rest of us to pass. I'm not a super tech, but I do read and observe a lot so

I don't fall behind.

--

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website.

Check out my adventures with a shadow machine.

to subscribe to the feed click here and you can also follow us on twitter

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on twitch. Feel free to
give the channel a follow and see what is up there.

For stream archives, products you can buy and more visit my main lbry page
and my tffp lbry page You will also be able to buy some of my products and
eBooks there.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 30 Dec 2020, at 18:12, Mary Otten wrote:




Gee, Sarah, I hope you don't teach older blind people and/or beginners. Much

too demanding for a beginner to expect that. Let's blind fold the sighted
folks and tell them to do just keyboard stuff, no clicks. There isn't a one

size fits all, and often people who have mastered a lot think everybody else

should do the same to the same extent, or they're not worth messing with.
I've seen that with blind supertechies, self-styled, and it is disgusting.




Off tipic, maybe. But I'm just responding to what I dfeel is an absurd
approach.




Mary




On 12/30/2020 6:02 PM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:


Oh no. I tell a blind person click this and click that, and if they cannot
follow my directions, then it's not my problem. they need to learn how to
translate that into what ever that means for them. If they fail to do so,
they will be left behind, and I cannot do anything about that.

--

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website.

Check out my adventures with a shadow machine.

to subscribe to the feed click here and you can also follow us on twitter

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on twitch. Feel free to
give the channel a follow and see what is up there.

For stream archives, products you can buy and more visit my main lbry page
and my tffp lbry page You will also be able to buy some of my products and
eBooks there.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 30 Dec 2020, at 16:08, Brian Vogel wrote:


On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 02:32 PM, Arlene wrote:
You’d be a good advocate for blind users who have to fight with isp
providers. You know how they say click here or there. They have no clue
that you are a blind user. I’ve encountered someone who had no clue that I

don’t see.-
Now, Arlene, I'll probably end up causing you some offense while at the same

time praising you and trashing the clueless sighted, too.

I have been a good advocate on many occasions for multiple issues. But, at

the same time, there are "click here and click there" instructions that
should be simple to follow, while there are others that are impossible to
follow. There are plenty of sighted individuals (like I have to say this
here), and particularly techs, who have probably never dealt with an
individual who is blind let alone with a screen reader. If you ask most of

your sighted friends and acquaintances who've never been around someone
who's blind when they're using a computer how they think that would work,
they generally can't answer. I could not have answered this during my many

years in the computer biz, and that was, I would say, for the majority of my

many years in the computer biz. The whole concept of something so visually
driven in the most common user interface is almost impossible to conceive of

via other modalities. Those of us who see "swim in sight" like it's water
and we're Esther Williams and, for obvious reasons, that's a taken for
granted thing. Just like those of us who can hear do the same for audition.

You just don't think about sensory modalities you lack, or how those would
be substituted, when you have no real reason to in daily existence.

I honestly think it sometimes just doesn't register with some techs when you

identify yourself as blind (which, I will add, is absolutely your
responsibility when engaging technical support - they can't read minds) and

for many where it does, what they are doing and saying is out of force of
habit rather than malice or stupidity. It's probably ignorance more than
anything. But sometimes you have to guide them, and teach them something,
when they're trying to guide you in a way that can't work. Were someone to

say, "Click on the gear icon," responding with, "I can't see that, but do
you mean you want me to open settings?," is going to get both sides of the
equation something they need. You get clarity (or hopefully you do) and the

tech gets clued in, however subtly and possibly temporarily, that there is a

way to reference things that is not purely visual. They'll usually keep
screwing up out of force of habit during any given session, but if you keep

instructing them about what you need, they'll often be willing to rephrase.

For certain things, it's worth trying to get the point across that giving
reference points, is something worth doing. A response like, "Click on the

red button at the upper left is meaningless for me, but is there another
button or link very near to it? If I can find that, I can likely find
what's next to it." There really are not, and never will be, enough
technicians out there versed in screen readers and blindness to provide
support for every product that exists, particularly for smaller companies.
But many techs really want to help, they just have no idea of exactly how,
and you can serve to teach them how to an extent while getting the help you

need.

All of the above being said, make no mistake, I know all too well that you
will get plenty of clueless and hostile (or at least very passive and
unwilling to work with you) techs. But there are lots of folks who will
quickly recognize that you are not clueless about what you need, and that
they, while they may be clueless about how you get to it, can still find a
way to meet you in the middle where you can both get what you want.

I worked for many years in brain injury services, and I used to tell my
patients/clients who were brain injured and trying to make their way back
into "the world at large" that they would constantly, endlessly, have to be

their own best advocates and to educate the clueless. It's not a choice,
because that's another population that's such a tiny niche in humanity at
large that there will never come a time when most people they meet and
interact with will have any idea about what it is to be brain injured or
what a brain injured individual might need. The thing that someone who's
had a brain injury has going against them that most blind people will not is

the presumption that they are incapable of understanding a very great many
things that they can. And one of the most difficult self-advocation skills

I used to teach is temper control when the clueless deserve a shovel upside

the head for how obnoxious they're being and keeping composure so that you
can clearly communicate what you need and what you're capable of.

Almost anyone with almost any disability is saddled with the added
responsibility of having to be advocate and teacher as a part of their daily

life where the majority do not. But I do not ever see any way that will
change. It's the result of relative sizes of given demographics in the
population at large. When you're a niche, you're a niche. Rebelling
against the larger world because you have that added burden does not do any

damage to the larger world. In fact, by and large, they couldn't care less

because in most instances they don't have to. But that doesn't mean that
those same people are malicious or stupid, just ignorant, and many really
would love to help if they are taught how that's appropriately given. And,

believe me, the last thing you want is to have them guess, because those
guesses will be wrong 99.999% of the time.

--


Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to
overturn the votes certified by 4 states:] Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling,

but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next.

We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan
and John Boehner

















--
Lenron Brown
Cell: 985-271-2832
Skype: ron.brown762


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Gene
 

that is ideology and, though it oftenmakes sense, it doesn't always. I had swimming lessons in a sighted class as a child, and though I learned a good deal, I went much farther in much less time while in a program that matched one instructor with one blind student.

You haven't defined what thinking in sighted terms means. If I'm writing on a list like this, I'm not going to say, click on tools, then click options, then click on whatever tab I may want to move to from the default. for one thing, a lot of people wouldn't know what I was talking about. for another, blind people do work from the keyboard in most of what they do. I think about mouse commands when I need to, when reading instructions written for sighted people, and when describing how to do something to a sighted person. But when I'm thinking about how I usually use a computer, I think about the way I use it, from the keyboard. I'm not going to spend the time and effort translating keyboard procedures for blind people to read because of an ideological belief that we have to think in sighted terms. When I open a menu in a typical program, I don't think to myself, click the menu in the menu bar. Whether I think about it or do it so automatically that I don't think about it, I press alt and then do whatever I do to finish opening the menu. While it is a good thing for people who want to expand their abilities beyond that, that doesn't mean that we have to describe things the way sighted people do when talking with other blind people. Living in a sighted world requires certain skills and knowledge. It doesn't mean that we have to describe everything as sighted people do when we talk among ourselves.

if you do things and function in environments where it matters, knowing how to do so may be important. That isn't the same as refusing to describe things when talking with blind people as blind people usually do things. that is a misapplication of ideology.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Sarah k Alawami
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2020 11:07 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice



We live in a sighted world. You must think in sighted terms, no matter your age. I was taught like this by an older instructor of music. None of us got left behind, and for those of us that did, they dropped quickly leaving the rest of us to pass. I'm not a super tech, but I do read and observe a lot so I don't fall behind.

--

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website.

Check out my adventures with a shadow machine.

to subscribe to the feed click here and you can also follow us on twitter

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on twitch. Feel free to give the channel a follow and see what is up there.

For stream archives, products you can buy and more visit my main lbry page and my tffp lbry page You will also be able to buy some of my products and eBooks there.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 30 Dec 2020, at 18:12, Mary Otten wrote:




Gee, Sarah, I hope you don't teach older blind people and/or beginners. Much too demanding for a beginner to expect that. Let's blind fold the sighted folks and tell them to do just keyboard stuff, no clicks. There isn't a one size fits all, and often people who have mastered a lot think everybody else should do the same to the same extent, or they're not worth messing with. I've seen that with blind supertechies, self-styled, and it is disgusting.




Off tipic, maybe. But I'm just responding to what I dfeel is an absurd approach.




Mary




On 12/30/2020 6:02 PM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:


Oh no. I tell a blind person click this and click that, and if they cannot follow my directions, then it's not my problem. they need to learn how to translate that into what ever that means for them. If they fail to do so, they will be left behind, and I cannot do anything about that.

--

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website.

Check out my adventures with a shadow machine.

to subscribe to the feed click here and you can also follow us on twitter

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on twitch. Feel free to give the channel a follow and see what is up there.

For stream archives, products you can buy and more visit my main lbry page and my tffp lbry page You will also be able to buy some of my products and eBooks there.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 30 Dec 2020, at 16:08, Brian Vogel wrote:


On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 02:32 PM, Arlene wrote:
You’d be a good advocate for blind users who have to fight with isp providers. You know how they say click here or there. They have no clue that you are a blind user. I’ve encountered someone who had no clue that I don’t see.-
Now, Arlene, I'll probably end up causing you some offense while at the same time praising you and trashing the clueless sighted, too.

I have been a good advocate on many occasions for multiple issues. But, at the same time, there are "click here and click there" instructions that should be simple to follow, while there are others that are impossible to follow. There are plenty of sighted individuals (like I have to say this here), and particularly techs, who have probably never dealt with an individual who is blind let alone with a screen reader. If you ask most of your sighted friends and acquaintances who've never been around someone who's blind when they're using a computer how they think that would work, they generally can't answer. I could not have answered this during my many years in the computer biz, and that was, I would say, for the majority of my many years in the computer biz. The whole concept of something so visually driven in the most common user interface is almost impossible to conceive of via other modalities. Those of us who see "swim in sight" like it's water and we're Esther Williams and, for obvious reasons, that's a taken for granted thing. Just like those of us who can hear do the same for audition. You just don't think about sensory modalities you lack, or how those would be substituted, when you have no real reason to in daily existence.

I honestly think it sometimes just doesn't register with some techs when you identify yourself as blind (which, I will add, is absolutely your responsibility when engaging technical support - they can't read minds) and for many where it does, what they are doing and saying is out of force of habit rather than malice or stupidity. It's probably ignorance more than anything. But sometimes you have to guide them, and teach them something, when they're trying to guide you in a way that can't work. Were someone to say, "Click on the gear icon," responding with, "I can't see that, but do you mean you want me to open settings?," is going to get both sides of the equation something they need. You get clarity (or hopefully you do) and the tech gets clued in, however subtly and possibly temporarily, that there is a way to reference things that is not purely visual. They'll usually keep screwing up out of force of habit during any given session, but if you keep instructing them about what you need, they'll often be willing to rephrase. For certain things, it's worth trying to get the point across that giving reference points, is something worth doing. A response like, "Click on the red button at the upper left is meaningless for me, but is there another button or link very near to it? If I can find that, I can likely find what's next to it." There really are not, and never will be, enough technicians out there versed in screen readers and blindness to provide support for every product that exists, particularly for smaller companies. But many techs really want to help, they just have no idea of exactly how, and you can serve to teach them how to an extent while getting the help you need.

All of the above being said, make no mistake, I know all too well that you will get plenty of clueless and hostile (or at least very passive and unwilling to work with you) techs. But there are lots of folks who will quickly recognize that you are not clueless about what you need, and that they, while they may be clueless about how you get to it, can still find a way to meet you in the middle where you can both get what you want.

I worked for many years in brain injury services, and I used to tell my patients/clients who were brain injured and trying to make their way back into "the world at large" that they would constantly, endlessly, have to be their own best advocates and to educate the clueless. It's not a choice, because that's another population that's such a tiny niche in humanity at large that there will never come a time when most people they meet and interact with will have any idea about what it is to be brain injured or what a brain injured individual might need. The thing that someone who's had a brain injury has going against them that most blind people will not is the presumption that they are incapable of understanding a very great many things that they can. And one of the most difficult self-advocation skills I used to teach is temper control when the clueless deserve a shovel upside the head for how obnoxious they're being and keeping composure so that you can clearly communicate what you need and what you're capable of.

Almost anyone with almost any disability is saddled with the added responsibility of having to be advocate and teacher as a part of their daily life where the majority do not. But I do not ever see any way that will change. It's the result of relative sizes of given demographics in the population at large. When you're a niche, you're a niche. Rebelling against the larger world because you have that added burden does not do any damage to the larger world. In fact, by and large, they couldn't care less because in most instances they don't have to. But that doesn't mean that those same people are malicious or stupid, just ignorant, and many really would love to help if they are taught how that's appropriately given. And, believe me, the last thing you want is to have them guess, because those guesses will be wrong 99.999% of the time.

--


Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:] Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next. We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Dale Leavens
 

I just want to add how sad I feel that this topic has come up at all and that it has persisted so long and yet here I am adding to it.

Over my 7 decades as a blind man the one consistent observation I continue to experience is that atitude of the blind that blindness related employment should be provided preference to blind candidates rather than the most capable and/or competent persons.  Often these are the same sort who would object to sheltered workshops but really what is the difference?

The Windows environment and mouse access is never a system blind persons would ever have created so as a result if we intend to access the technology it will of necessity be a question of compromise.

Similarly if we as blind persons were to create cities we wouldn’t use coloured lights as signals but if we are to function and participate we will have to adapt.  We probably want seeing persons to orient us to such environments too.  Certainly I do.

I was a long time believing that a touch screen device like the iPhone could ever be accessible and if so even practical however it is now pretty well exclusively my device for interaction with the world but this is the exception.

I recently acquired a large air filter which is touch screen and totally inaccessible.  Similarly our kitchen range is hardly accessible but with markings we are getting by.

More to the point it was a sighted daughter which made access possible.

We have three seeing kids, one girl has made most of her teaching career teaching children with behavioral issues although she is not so afflicted.  Our other daughter is a teacher of the visually impaired and has recently become certified as a orientation and mobility instructor.  I don’t see how her vision should disqualify her for those functions and I would propose her background with blind parents might actually contribute to her suitability.

Now retired, I was a physiotherapist in a variety of settings primarily interested in acquired brain injury.  Not everyone felt I was suitable for the role but once I made my way into advanced courses it was soon understood that blindness gave me some advantages and some disadvantages, just as others in the programmes had strengths and weaknesses.

What is my point?

This topic demonstrates that prejudice is live and well in the blindness community just like in the general population.

I don’t really know what Brian’s role is in the NVDA project but I hope it is his competence we judge him by.

Cheers.


Dale Leavens
Cochrane Ontario Canada
.
Come visit our polar bears!

On Dec 30, 2020, at 11:44 PM, Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:

On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 11:25 PM, Gene wrote:
Gently encouraging it is one thing but I think going beyond that isn't a good idea.
-
And whether we're talking about children, or adults, one generally only gets what one expects or demands.

I am not here, or anywhere, to "gently encourage" as my primary mode of operation.  Most people don't need "gentle encouragement," but those who clearly do get it and have gotten it from me.  Those who expect to be spoon-fed, and they do pop up occasionally, need to be promptly disabused of the notion that this is OK, anywhere.

And it is not unreasonable to demand, not request, but demand, that participants on any venue where archives exist know how to reference them and, if they don't, make acquiring that skill a priority.  Nor is it unreasonable to expect that members in a venue such as this one be a little proactive on their own behalves. If you see the answer to a question that you think you'll need at some point in the future, then please file that somewhere, don't ask the same question the next day or next week.  Or, better yet, if you recall you've seen it then ask about how you can find that question on the archives rather than asking the question again.  You can learn something, and so can many others reading, that is not learned via the regurgitating something just answered.

Learn how to use the magnificent features that this Groups.io platform gives you such as the Mute this Topic link when a topic goes on longer than you'd like and you've lost interest.  Or the Reply to Sender link to take things off-group when that's appropriate.  Or setting up topic-preview if you're overwhelmed by the volume of email from any given Groups.io group you participate on.  (See:  Controlling the Messages You Receive via E-Mail from Groups.io [docx format])  I'm quite sure that there are many tired of this topic and, if they are, they should hit that "Mute this topic" link to keep from getting any more messages from this topic.

Each and every message sent is going out, as of this evening, to 1440 people, and that's an actual imposition on their time.  Everyone should be considering this before each and every post they make.  I did before making this one, but a great deal of the information in it allows them to control their own group e-mail destiny, so it's worth it.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next.  We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

        ~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner 

 


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Sarah k Alawami
 

I don't even do that much. I expect a person to rry and read a manual, a quick start guide, etc befor easking any lists for help. in fact on many of the lists I run I say "to cut down ont raffic, do yoru own research first before coming to us." I've learned a lot by googling or trying to read a quick start guide if it is out there. ONe example is on the block chain, but that I won't go into here. That is one of many examples where i shove my nose into a something and attempt to memorise.

--

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website.

Check out my adventures with a shadow machine.

to subscribe to the feed click here and you can also follow us on twitter

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on twitch. Feel free to give the channel a follow and see what is up there.

For stream archives, products you can buy and more visit my main lbry page and my tffp lbry page You will also be able to buy some of my products and eBooks there.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 30 Dec 2020, at 19:36, Gene wrote:

That is not my position nor have I said that. My position is that there are times when too much knowledge is assumed or expected on a list with people at all sorts of skill levels. I didn't say you explain everything as though no one knows anything. But for example, if you are describing a specific command or sequence using object navigation, I know that a lot of people don't know how do use that feature and so I would give a command such as use numpad insert numpad 4 to move to the item you want.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2020 8:37 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 09:22 PM, Rosemarie Chavarria wrote:
I too hope Sarah doesn't teach older computer users or beginners to the computer.-
And I will say that this is, in no way, limited to Sarah. I have said that I absolutely, positively refuse to presume that most users I encounter anywhere, but particularly on groups such as this, are complete beginners or "know next to nothing" barring their having identified themselves that way.

I have the patience of a saint when I now such is required, and each and every member here or anywhere as far as groups/forums goes, is there of their own volition. Potential assistants cannot and do not read minds. If you are a complete beginner, and do not state such clearly, it is perfectly reasonable for someone to assume you are most likely not. And if you are, and the potential assistant does not have the temperament to deal with such, they can and generally will simply skip trying to assist.

I have had private and very intense discussions with another member here about just this issue. His position is that we should assume virtually nothing and presume complete (or nearly so) neophyte status for each and every question. I feel, and have stated repeatedly, that I think this is ludicrous. By the time most find a venue such as this, they are generally well beyond the complete beginner stage, so that should be the default presumption.

I have put together a list of assumptions I make on each and every group I either own or moderate, and won't post them all (though, believe me, I'm tempted), but these are definitely pertinent to this discussion:



1. <!--[endif]-->You remember that everyone who is a member of the group is here by their own choice, and that help provided is on a volunteer basis. That means that there could be a significant time delay between when a question is asked and when it may be answered. It also may not be answered, this happens. When a question is not answered, it’s because no one knows the answer, not because it wasn’t seen. Please don’t ask again hours later or the next day.



1. <!--[endif]-->That you read, absorb, and accept the following:

It is impossible to help individuals who will not listen to advice unless they like that advice. Being a good assistant is not about making the person assisted "feel good," but about both asking the right (and sometimes hard) questions as well as giving the information necessary to achieve the desired result. Getting help is a two-way street, and those asking for help have work they must do, too, when asked. They also need to be ready to let go of what they'd like to do, and instead do what's been asked for by the person offering assistance.



Those receiving assistance are free to reject advice, you are also entitled to ask for clarification, but if you don’t want to do what your assistant is asking, then state that so that you can both can move along. Assistants have every right to assist as they see fit, and those being assisted to either follow or reject the option(s) presented. An assistant is within their rights to withdraw support at any time, for any reason.


------------ These groups are not, and should not be considered, pure Q&A venues. They are about increasing personal skills and independence as much as answering questions, and very often doing the former means not spoon-feeding the answers, but guiding the questioner through the steps to, in a careful way, find them for themselves. And in the end, you remember things better when you've had assistance in working your own way through something to find your own way of doing it.
--


Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:] Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next. We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner








Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Sarah k Alawami
 

You might say "click on settings" or "if that doesn't say settings, click on the mic icon."

--

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website.

Check out my adventures with a shadow machine.

to subscribe to the feed click here and you can also follow us on twitter

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on twitch. Feel free to give the channel a follow and see what is up there.

For stream archives, products you can buy and more visit my main lbry page and my tffp lbry page You will also be able to buy some of my products and eBooks there.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 30 Dec 2020, at 18:24, Chris Smart wrote:

Sarah, if you're reading this, remember that what your screen reader calls something may not at all be what a sighted people sees. You may say "click on where it says 'sound settings'" and they may only see a little icon of a microphone.  How do you account for discrepancies like that?

On 2020-12-30 9:22 p.m., Rosemarie Chavarria wrote:

I agree. If I was a beginning computer user, I wouldn't want Sarah as my instructor. If she's gonna tell people to click on something, she might as well say "point and click". I say that because I actually had a teacher yell at me because I couldn't use the mouse to click on something. I too hope Sarah doesn't teach older computer users or beginners to the computer.

On 12/30/2020 6:12 PM, Mary Otten wrote:

Gee, Sarah, I hope you don't teach older blind people and/or beginners. Much too demanding for a beginner to expect that. Let's blind fold the sighted folks and tell them to do just keyboard stuff, no clicks. There isn't a one size fits all, and often people who have mastered a lot think everybody else should do the same to the same extent, or they're not worth messing with. I've seen that with blind supertechies, self-styled, and it is disgusting.

Off tipic, maybe. But I'm just  responding to what I dfeel is an absurd approach.

Mary

On 12/30/2020 6:02 PM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:

Oh no. I tell a blind person click this and click that, and if they cannot follow my directions, then it's not my problem. they need to learn how to translate that into what ever that means for them. If they fail to do so, they will be left behind, and I cannot do anything about that.

--

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website. http://www.tffppodcast.com

Check out my adventures with a shadow machine. http://tffppodcast.com/shadow

to subscribe to the feed click here http://feeds.feedburner.com/tffp and you can also follow us on twitter http://twitter.com/tffppodcast

Our discord http://discord.tffppodcast.com is where you will know when we go live on twitch. http://twitch.tv/ke7zum Feel free to give the channel a follow and see what is up there.

For stream archives, products you can buy and more visit my main lbry page http://lbry.tv/@ke7zum and my tffp lbry page http://lbry.tv/@tffp You will also be able to buy some of my products and eBooks there.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here Http://patreon.com/tffppodcast

On 30 Dec 2020, at 16:08, Brian Vogel wrote:

    On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 02:32 PM, Arlene wrote:

        You’d be a good advocate for blind users who have to fight
        with isp providers.  You know how they say click here or
        there. They have no clue that you are a blind user. I’ve
        encountered someone who had no clue that I don’t see.

    -
    Now, Arlene, I'll probably end up causing you some offense while
    at the same time praising you and trashing the clueless sighted, too.

    I have been a good advocate on many occasions for multiple
    issues.  But, at the same time, there are "click here and click
    there" instructions that should be simple to follow, while there
    are others that are impossible to follow.  There are plenty of
    sighted individuals (like I have to say this here), and
    particularly techs, who have probably never dealt with an
    individual who is blind let alone with a screen reader. If you
    ask most of your sighted friends and acquaintances who've never
    been around someone who's blind when they're using a computer how
    they think that would work, they generally can't answer. I could
    not have answered this during my many years in the computer biz,
    and that was, I would say, for the majority of my many years in
    the computer biz. The whole concept of something so visually
    driven in the most common user interface is almost impossible to
    conceive of via other modalities.  Those of us who see "swim in
    sight" like it's water and we're Esther Williams and, for obvious
    reasons, that's a taken for granted thing.  Just like those of us
    who can hear do the same for audition.  You just don't think about
    sensory modalities you lack, or how those would be substituted,
    when you have no real reason to in daily existence.

    I honestly think it sometimes just doesn't register with some
    techs when you identify yourself as blind (which, I will add, is
    absolutely your responsibility when engaging technical support -
    they can't read minds) and for many where it does, what they are
    doing and saying is out of force of habit rather than malice or
    stupidity.  It's probably ignorance more than anything. But
    sometimes you have to guide them, and teach them something, when
    they're trying to guide you in a way that can't work. Were
    someone to say, "Click on the gear icon," responding with, "I
    can't see that, but do you mean you want me to open settings?," is
    going to get both sides of the equation something they need.  You
    get clarity (or hopefully you do) and the tech gets clued in,
    however subtly and possibly temporarily, that there is a way to
    reference things that is not purely visual.  They'll usually keep
    screwing up out of force of habit during any given session, but if
    you keep instructing them about what you need, they'll often be
    willing to rephrase.  For certain things, it's worth trying to get
    the point across that giving reference points, is something worth
    doing.  A response like, "Click on the red button at the upper
    left is meaningless for me, but is there another button or link
    very near to it?  If I can find that, I can likely find what's
    next to it."   There really are not, and never will be, enough
    technicians out there versed in screen readers and blindness to
    provide support for every product that exists, particularly for
    smaller companies.  But many techs really want to help, they just
    have no idea of exactly how, and you can serve to teach them how
    to an extent while getting the help you need.

    All of the above being said, make no mistake, I know all too well
    that you will get plenty of clueless and hostile (or at least very
    passive and unwilling to work with you) techs. But there are lots
    of folks who will quickly recognize that you are not clueless
    about what you need, and that they, while they may be clueless
    about how you get to it, can still find a way to meet you in the
    middle where you can both get what you want.

    I worked for many years in brain injury services, and I used to
    tell my patients/clients who were brain injured and trying to make
    their way back into "the world at large" that they would
    constantly, endlessly, have to be their own best advocates and to
    educate the clueless.  It's not a choice, because that's another
    population that's such a tiny niche in humanity at large that
    there will never come a time when most people they meet and
    interact with will have any idea about what it is to be brain
    injured or what a brain injured individual might need. The thing
    that someone who's had a brain injury has going against them that
    most blind people will not is the presumption that they are
    incapable of understanding a very great many things that they
    can.  And one of the most difficult self-advocation skills I used
    to teach is temper control when the clueless deserve a shovel
    upside the head for how obnoxious they're being and keeping
    composure so that you can clearly communicate what you need and
    what you're capable of.

    Almost anyone with almost any disability is saddled with the added
    responsibility of having to be advocate and teacher as a part of
    their daily life where the majority do not.  But I do not ever see
    any way that will change.  It's the result of relative sizes of
    given demographics in the population at large.  When you're a
    niche, you're a niche.  Rebelling against the larger world because
    you have that added burden does not do any damage to the larger
    world.  In fact, by and large, they couldn't care less because in
    most instances they don't have to.  But that doesn't mean that
    those same people are malicious or stupid, just ignorant, and many
    really would love to help if they are taught how that's
    appropriately given.  And, believe me, the last thing you want is
    to have them guess, because those guesses will be wrong 99.999% of
    the time.

    --
    Brian -Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042

    [Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by
    Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:] /Pleased with
    the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of
    where this crazy train goes next.  We should know by now there’s a
    bottomless supply of crazy./

            ~ Brendan Buck, /former adviser to Speakers of the House
    Paul Ryan and John Boehner/


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Sarah k Alawami
 

We live in a sighted world. You must think in sighted terms, no matter your age. I was taught like this by an older instructor of music. None of us got left behind, and for those of us that did, they dropped quickly leaving the rest of us to pass. I'm not a super tech, but I do read and observe a lot so I don't fall behind.

--

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website.

Check out my adventures with a shadow machine.

to subscribe to the feed click here and you can also follow us on twitter

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on twitch. Feel free to give the channel a follow and see what is up there.

For stream archives, products you can buy and more visit my main lbry page and my tffp lbry page You will also be able to buy some of my products and eBooks there.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 30 Dec 2020, at 18:12, Mary Otten wrote:

Gee, Sarah, I hope you don't teach older blind people and/or beginners. Much too demanding for a beginner to expect that. Let's blind fold the sighted folks and tell them to do just keyboard stuff, no clicks. There isn't a one size fits all, and often people who have mastered a lot think everybody else should do the same to the same extent, or they're not worth messing with. I've seen that with blind supertechies, self-styled, and it is disgusting.


Off tipic, maybe. But I'm just  responding to what I dfeel is an absurd approach.


Mary


On 12/30/2020 6:02 PM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:

Oh no. I tell a blind person click this and click that, and if they cannot follow my directions, then it's not my problem. they need to learn how to translate that into what ever that means for them. If they fail to do so, they will be left behind, and I cannot do anything about that.

--

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website.

Check out my adventures with a shadow machine.

to subscribe to the feed click here and you can also follow us on twitter

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on twitch. Feel free to give the channel a follow and see what is up there.

For stream archives, products you can buy and more visit my main lbry page and my tffp lbry page You will also be able to buy some of my products and eBooks there.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 30 Dec 2020, at 16:08, Brian Vogel wrote:

On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 02:32 PM, Arlene wrote:
You’d be a good advocate for blind users who have to fight with isp providers.  You know how they say click here or there. They have no clue that you are a blind user.  I’ve encountered someone who had no clue that I don’t see.
-
Now, Arlene, I'll probably end up causing you some offense while at the same time praising you and trashing the clueless sighted, too.

I have been a good advocate on many occasions for multiple issues.  But, at the same time, there are "click here and click there" instructions that should be simple to follow, while there are others that are impossible to follow.  There are plenty of sighted individuals (like I have to say this here), and particularly techs, who have probably never dealt with an individual who is blind let alone with a screen reader.  If you ask most of your sighted friends and acquaintances who've never been around someone who's blind when they're using a computer how they think that would work, they generally can't answer.  I could not have answered this during my many years in the computer biz, and that was, I would say, for the majority of my many years in the computer biz. The whole concept of something so visually driven in the most common user interface is almost impossible to conceive of via other modalities.  Those of us who see "swim in sight" like it's water and we're Esther Williams and, for obvious reasons, that's a taken for granted thing.  Just like those of us who can hear do the same for audition.  You just don't think about sensory modalities you lack, or how those would be substituted, when you have no real reason to in daily existence.

I honestly think it sometimes just doesn't register with some techs when you identify yourself as blind (which, I will add, is absolutely your responsibility when engaging technical support - they can't read minds) and for many where it does, what they are doing and saying is out of force of habit rather than malice or stupidity.  It's probably ignorance more than anything.  But sometimes you have to guide them, and teach them something, when they're trying to guide you in a way that can't work.  Were someone to say, "Click on the gear icon," responding with, "I can't see that, but do you mean you want me to open settings?," is going to get both sides of the equation something they need.  You get clarity (or hopefully you do) and the tech gets clued in, however subtly and possibly temporarily, that there is a way to reference things that is not purely visual.  They'll usually keep screwing up out of force of habit during any given session, but if you keep instructing them about what you need, they'll often be willing to rephrase.  For certain things, it's worth trying to get the point across that giving reference points, is something worth doing.  A response like, "Click on the red button at the upper left is meaningless for me, but is there another button or link very near to it?  If I can find that, I can likely find what's next to it."   There really are not, and never will be, enough technicians out there versed in screen readers and blindness to provide support for every product that exists, particularly for smaller companies.  But many techs really want to help, they just have no idea of exactly how, and you can serve to teach them how to an extent while getting the help you need.

All of the above being said, make no mistake, I know all too well that you will get plenty of clueless and hostile (or at least very passive and unwilling to work with you) techs.  But there are lots of folks who will quickly recognize that you are not clueless about what you need, and that they, while they may be clueless about how you get to it, can still find a way to meet you in the middle where you can both get what you want.

I worked for many years in brain injury services, and I used to tell my patients/clients who were brain injured and trying to make their way back into "the world at large" that they would constantly, endlessly, have to be their own best advocates and to educate the clueless.  It's not a choice, because that's another population that's such a tiny niche in humanity at large that there will never come a time when most people they meet and interact with will have any idea about what it is to be brain injured or what a brain injured individual might need.  The thing that someone who's had a brain injury has going against them that most blind people will not is the presumption that they are incapable of understanding a very great many things that they can.  And one of the most difficult self-advocation skills I used to teach is temper control when the clueless deserve a shovel upside the head for how obnoxious they're being and keeping composure so that you can clearly communicate what you need and what you're capable of.

Almost anyone with almost any disability is saddled with the added responsibility of having to be advocate and teacher as a part of their daily life where the majority do not.  But I do not ever see any way that will change.  It's the result of relative sizes of given demographics in the population at large.  When you're a niche, you're a niche.  Rebelling against the larger world because you have that added burden does not do any damage to the larger world.  In fact, by and large, they couldn't care less because in most instances they don't have to.  But that doesn't mean that those same people are malicious or stupid, just ignorant, and many really would love to help if they are taught how that's appropriately given.  And, believe me, the last thing you want is to have them guess, because those guesses will be wrong 99.999% of the time.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next.  We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

        ~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner 

 


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

 

On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 11:25 PM, Gene wrote:
Gently encouraging it is one thing but I think going beyond that isn't a good idea.
-
And whether we're talking about children, or adults, one generally only gets what one expects or demands.

I am not here, or anywhere, to "gently encourage" as my primary mode of operation.  Most people don't need "gentle encouragement," but those who clearly do get it and have gotten it from me.  Those who expect to be spoon-fed, and they do pop up occasionally, need to be promptly disabused of the notion that this is OK, anywhere.

And it is not unreasonable to demand, not request, but demand, that participants on any venue where archives exist know how to reference them and, if they don't, make acquiring that skill a priority.  Nor is it unreasonable to expect that members in a venue such as this one be a little proactive on their own behalves. If you see the answer to a question that you think you'll need at some point in the future, then please file that somewhere, don't ask the same question the next day or next week.  Or, better yet, if you recall you've seen it then ask about how you can find that question on the archives rather than asking the question again.  You can learn something, and so can many others reading, that is not learned via the regurgitating something just answered.

Learn how to use the magnificent features that this Groups.io platform gives you such as the Mute this Topic link when a topic goes on longer than you'd like and you've lost interest.  Or the Reply to Sender link to take things off-group when that's appropriate.  Or setting up topic-preview if you're overwhelmed by the volume of email from any given Groups.io group you participate on.  (See:  Controlling the Messages You Receive via E-Mail from Groups.io [docx format])  I'm quite sure that there are many tired of this topic and, if they are, they should hit that "Mute this topic" link to keep from getting any more messages from this topic.

Each and every message sent is going out, as of this evening, to 1440 people, and that's an actual imposition on their time.  Everyone should be considering this before each and every post they make.  I did before making this one, but a great deal of the information in it allows them to control their own group e-mail destiny, so it's worth it.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next.  We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

        ~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner 

 


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Gene
 

I don't want to misrepresent my position nor yours. You and I have differed about other things as well such as if it is a good idea to expect, on a list with people ranging in so much knowledge and ability for people to use the archives. Gently encouraging it is one thing but I think going beyond that isn't a good idea. But I don't believe that people should be treated or assumed to know nothing. I have certain areas of disagreement with you. We have areas of agreement as well.

AsI said, I don't want to argue these things again but in discussing why I object to how you carachterized my position, I wanted to be more clear about the differences.
Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Gene
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2020 10:06 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

All it tells me is that you haven't had these debates to any extent with
anyone else so who else could it be? While I could just say something like
use object navigation to find and work with whatever is being discussed,
that isn't efficient. it would often lead to another question being asked
and answered when I can simply give a commandor two and have the person do
what is necessary.

Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2020 9:52 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 10:36 PM, Gene wrote:
My position is that there are times when too much knowledge is assumed or
expected on a list with people at all sorts of skill levels.-
And it's my position that when this occurs, and it will, it's up to the
questioner to ask for clarification. I cannot and will not even come close
to presuming minimal skill levels in the vast majority of cases, and you
have taken me to task, repeatedly, for having done so.

If someone does not understand what I'm saying, or what I've told them, or
what something means, then, by all means, ask me a follow-up question.
That's what adults do, and should be expected to do. Nothing more, nothing
less.

And it's interesting to me how you recognize who I'm making reference to,
when I took pains not to be explicit. That should tell you something.
--


Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to
overturn the votes certified by 4 states:] Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling,
but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next.
We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan
and John Boehner


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Gene
 

All it tells me is that you haven't had these debates to any extent with anyone else so who else could it be? While I could just say something like use object navigation to find and work with whatever is being discussed, that isn't efficient. it would often lead to another question being asked and answered when I can simply give a commandor two and have the person do what is necessary.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2020 9:52 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 10:36 PM, Gene wrote:
My position is that there are times when too much knowledge is assumed or expected on a list with people at all sorts of skill levels.-
And it's my position that when this occurs, and it will, it's up to the questioner to ask for clarification. I cannot and will not even come close to presuming minimal skill levels in the vast majority of cases, and you have taken me to task, repeatedly, for having done so.

If someone does not understand what I'm saying, or what I've told them, or what something means, then, by all means, ask me a follow-up question. That's what adults do, and should be expected to do. Nothing more, nothing less.

And it's interesting to me how you recognize who I'm making reference to, when I took pains not to be explicit. That should tell you something.
--


Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:] Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next. We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

 

On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 10:36 PM, Gene wrote:
My position is that there are times when too much knowledge is assumed or expected on a list with people at all sorts of skill levels.
-
And it's my position that when this occurs, and it will, it's up to the questioner to ask for clarification.  I cannot and will not even come close to presuming minimal skill levels in the vast majority of cases, and you have taken me to task, repeatedly, for having done so.

If someone does not understand what I'm saying, or what I've told them, or what something means, then, by all means, ask me a follow-up question.  That's what adults do, and should be expected to do.  Nothing more, nothing less.

And it's interesting to me how you recognize who I'm making reference to, when I took pains not to be explicit.  That should tell you something.  
 --

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next.  We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

        ~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner 

 


Re: NVDA say: edit read-only when nagivate line by line in Word

 

Hi Giles
Thanks for your instruction. I know this, but my friend said she can edit her file normaly. Just feel a little annoy while NVDA read this each time she navigate. I'll call her to understand the problem clearly.
Appreciated your help, and replies from other member.
Cuong

On 12/30/2020 10:42 PM, Giles Turnbull wrote:
Hi Cuong,

most of the time this happens with Word, it is because the document has been emailed to the NVDA user. Regardless of whether the NVDA user has opened it directly from the email or has saved it to their computer first and then opened it, Word will open it in protected mode, which is read-only and therefore it can't be edited and many of the ribbon options, like chnaging font or changing the view to draft view will not work.

To prevent that happening, press ALT+f to open the file menu, press the down arrow key three times to get to the Info menu, press Tab to enter that menu and then press the down arrow to get to the Protected View menu. Press Tab again and you'll be on the Enable Editing option and, if you press enter, that document will become unprotected and the NVDA user should no longer hear the warning that the document is protected and can't be edited. It will remain unprotected even after you close the document or shut down the computer. The same works with Excel files :)

I hope that helps.

Giles


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Gene
 

That is not my position nor have I said that. My position is that there are times when too much knowledge is assumed or expected on a list with people at all sorts of skill levels. I didn't say you explain everything as though no one knows anything. But for example, if you are describing a specific command or sequence using object navigation, I know that a lot of people don't know how do use that feature and so I would give a command such as use numpad insert numpad 4 to move to the item you want.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2020 8:37 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 09:22 PM, Rosemarie Chavarria wrote:
I too hope Sarah doesn't teach older computer users or beginners to the computer.-
And I will say that this is, in no way, limited to Sarah. I have said that I absolutely, positively refuse to presume that most users I encounter anywhere, but particularly on groups such as this, are complete beginners or "know next to nothing" barring their having identified themselves that way.

I have the patience of a saint when I now such is required, and each and every member here or anywhere as far as groups/forums goes, is there of their own volition. Potential assistants cannot and do not read minds. If you are a complete beginner, and do not state such clearly, it is perfectly reasonable for someone to assume you are most likely not. And if you are, and the potential assistant does not have the temperament to deal with such, they can and generally will simply skip trying to assist.

I have had private and very intense discussions with another member here about just this issue. His position is that we should assume virtually nothing and presume complete (or nearly so) neophyte status for each and every question. I feel, and have stated repeatedly, that I think this is ludicrous. By the time most find a venue such as this, they are generally well beyond the complete beginner stage, so that should be the default presumption.

I have put together a list of assumptions I make on each and every group I either own or moderate, and won't post them all (though, believe me, I'm tempted), but these are definitely pertinent to this discussion:



1. <!--[endif]-->You remember that everyone who is a member of the group is here by their own choice, and that help provided is on a volunteer basis. That means that there could be a significant time delay between when a question is asked and when it may be answered. It also may not be answered, this happens. When a question is not answered, it’s because no one knows the answer, not because it wasn’t seen. Please don’t ask again hours later or the next day.



1. <!--[endif]-->That you read, absorb, and accept the following:

It is impossible to help individuals who will not listen to advice unless they like that advice. Being a good assistant is not about making the person assisted "feel good," but about both asking the right (and sometimes hard) questions as well as giving the information necessary to achieve the desired result. Getting help is a two-way street, and those asking for help have work they must do, too, when asked. They also need to be ready to let go of what they'd like to do, and instead do what's been asked for by the person offering assistance.



Those receiving assistance are free to reject advice, you are also entitled to ask for clarification, but if you don’t want to do what your assistant is asking, then state that so that you can both can move along. Assistants have every right to assist as they see fit, and those being assisted to either follow or reject the option(s) presented. An assistant is within their rights to withdraw support at any time, for any reason.


------------
These groups are not, and should not be considered, pure Q&A venues. They are about increasing personal skills and independence as much as answering questions, and very often doing the former means not spoon-feeding the answers, but guiding the questioner through the steps to, in a careful way, find them for themselves. And in the end, you remember things better when you've had assistance in working your own way through something to find your own way of doing it.
--


Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:] Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next. We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner


Re: SPSS and NVDA

Sharad Koirala
 

hi,

my work also requires regular use of SPSS which I have been skipping on my own loss.

I had raised the issue about it in the NVDAcon Asia which happened around 2015-16 where Joseph Lee was very elaborate in answering the question but the technicalities could not go into my head :) (I am not a wise tech user). Anyway, the conclusion was that SPSS was not accessible with NVDA and changes were to be made by both IBM (the developer of SPSS) and NVDA to make it usable with a screen reader.

Since then, I have been waiting for the development.

Sincerely yours,
Dr. Sharad Koirala
Lecturer
Department of Community Medicine
Gandaki Medical College, Pokhara, Nepal


Re: SPSS and NVDA

 

William,

          You're quite welcome.  I have to say that my experience with SPSS in the very, very distant past (about 40 years ago), and as a sighted computer science major, showed it to be more than a little inaccessible, and I don't mean in the screen reader sense.  But, of course, since stats was "not my thing" I was less than motivated to dig deeply.

           It's amazing how long SPSS (Statistical Package for the Social Sciences - or at least I presume that's your reference) has been around.  I think it's almost as old as I am!
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next.  We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

        ~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner 

 


Re: SPSS and NVDA

William
 

Brian,

Thanks.

In fact before posting this topic, I have searched this topics on the archive and found some relevant discussions in the past.

Recently I came across a post on Reddit mentioned that SPSS is now accessible with JAWS, so I wanna ask if someone here have experience with this software.



Brian Vogel 於 30/12/2020 23:47 寫道:

If you have not already done so, have a look at these topics returned from a group archive search:  https://nvda.groups.io/g/nvda/search?ev=0&q=SPSS&ct=1 

SPSS has been discussed on a number of occasions, but I cannot recall what the ultimate conclusion(s) were about it and accessibility.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next.  We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

        ~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner 

 


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

 

On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 09:02 PM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:
Oh no. I tell a blind person click this and click that, and if they cannot follow my directions, then it's not my problem. they need to learn how to translate that into what ever that means for them. If they fail to do so, they will be left behind, and I cannot do anything about that.
-
I have intentionally quoted Sarah above, and ask those in high dudgeon to reread, and carefully reconsider, what's been said.  There are many of us who teach or have taught mixed audiences.  What she say is that she says "click this" or "click that," which is vague enough to make the this or that indeterminate.  I doubt very much that Sarah's a sadist and that the "this" or "that" are not comprehensible to her target audience.

Her statement, "they need to learn how to translate that into whatever that means for them," is a direct reflection of my earlier statement that you really do need to understand very basic things like "click on" means "gain focus on and select," as pointing and clicking both gains focus and makes the selection happen in a single step.

I doubt, very much, that she is making reference to situations where complete neophytes that have no computer experience at all are involved.  If she does, then even I'll declare her a sadist (and a masochist, too, because taking that teaching approach with "the unwashed" is a recipe for driving oneself insane in short order).

But it would not be unreasonable for her, or me, to believe that were we to say something like, "Click on the gear icon," and the listener did not know that the gear icon was announced as settings, that the question is not, and should not be, "What do you mean by click on?," but, "Is that gear icon announced as settings when I gain focus on it?"

It's the translation between "click on" and "gain focus and select" that should be automatic, not necessarily the thing being clicked on/focused upon and selected.  I doubt that she, or anyone instructing, will not answer reasonable questions.  But not all questions are reasonable in all venues.  Were someone in, say, a college level course to ask, "What do you mean by click on?," even if they were blind, they do not belong there to begin with.  It is perfectly reasonable to presume certain knowledge in certain times and places.  And if you're in adult education you as an instructor can and should generally presume that whatever knowledge is needed prior to enrolling in a course should already be there.  Not every setting is, or should be, remedial.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next.  We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

        ~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner 

 


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Rosemarie Chavarria
 

Hi, Brian,


You bring up very good points here. Yes, it's up to the beginner to ask questions if he or she doesn't understand something. That way the person assisting can give the proper steps for doing a given task.


Rosemarie

On 12/30/2020 6:37 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 09:22 PM, Rosemarie Chavarria wrote:

I too hope Sarah doesn't teach older computer users or beginners to the
computer.
-
And I will say that this is, in no way, limited to Sarah.  I have said that I absolutely, positively refuse to presume that most users I encounter anywhere, but particularly on groups such as this, are complete beginners or "know next to nothing" barring their having identified themselves that way.

I have the patience of a saint when I now such is required, and each and every member here or anywhere as far as groups/forums goes, is there of their own volition.  Potential assistants cannot and do not read minds.  If you are a complete beginner, and do not state such clearly, it is perfectly reasonable for someone to assume you are most likely not.  And if you are, and the potential assistant does not have the temperament to deal with such, they can and generally will simply skip trying to assist.

I have had private and very intense discussions with another member here about just this issue.  His position is that we should assume virtually nothing and presume complete (or nearly so) neophyte status for each and every question.  I feel, and have stated repeatedly, that I think this is ludicrous.  By the time most find a venue such as this, they are generally well beyond the complete beginner stage, so that should be the default presumption.

I have put together a list of assumptions I make on each and every group I either own or moderate, and won't post them all (though, believe me, I'm tempted), but these are definitely pertinent to this discussion:

1. You remember that everyone who is a member of the group is here by their own choice, and that help provided is on a volunteer basis.  That means that there could be a significant time delay between when a question is asked and when it may be answered.  It also may not be answered, this happens.  When a question is not answered, it’s because no one knows the answer, not because it wasn’t seen.  Please don’t ask again hours later or the next day.

1. That you read, absorb, and accept the following:

It is impossible to help individuals who will not listen to advice unless they *like* that advice. Being a good assistant is not about making the person assisted "feel good," but about both asking the right (and sometimes hard) questions as well as giving the information necessary to achieve the desired result. Getting help is a two-way street, and those asking for help have work they must do, too, when asked. They also need to be ready to let go of what they'd like to do, and instead do what's been asked for by the person offering assistance.

Those receiving assistance are free to reject advice, you are also entitled to ask for clarification, but if you don’t want to do what your assistant is asking, then state that so that you can both can move along.  Assistants have every right to assist as they see fit, and those being assisted to either follow or reject the option(s) presented.  An assistant is within their rights to withdraw support at any time, for any reason.

------------
These groups are not, and should not be considered, pure Q&A venues.  They are about increasing personal skills and independence as much as answering questions, and very often doing the former means not spoon-feeding the answers, but guiding the questioner through the steps to, in a careful way, find them for themselves.  And in the end, you remember things better when you've had assistance in working your own way through something to find your own way of doing it.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042

[ Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states: ] Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next.  We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner





Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

 

On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 09:22 PM, Rosemarie Chavarria wrote:
I too hope Sarah doesn't teach older computer users or beginners to the computer.
-
And I will say that this is, in no way, limited to Sarah.  I have said that I absolutely, positively refuse to presume that most users I encounter anywhere, but particularly on groups such as this, are complete beginners or "know next to nothing" barring their having identified themselves that way.

I have the patience of a saint when I now such is required, and each and every member here or anywhere as far as groups/forums goes, is there of their own volition.  Potential assistants cannot and do not read minds.  If you are a complete beginner, and do not state such clearly, it is perfectly reasonable for someone to assume you are most likely not.  And if you are, and the potential assistant does not have the temperament to deal with such, they can and generally will simply skip trying to assist.

I have had private and very intense discussions with another member here about just this issue.  His position is that we should assume virtually nothing and presume complete (or nearly so) neophyte status for each and every question.  I feel, and have stated repeatedly, that I think this is ludicrous.  By the time most find a venue such as this, they are generally well beyond the complete beginner stage, so that should be the default presumption.

I have put together a list of assumptions I make on each and every group I either own or moderate, and won't post them all (though, believe me, I'm tempted), but these are definitely pertinent to this discussion:

1.        You remember that everyone who is a member of the group is here by their own choice, and that help provided is on a volunteer basis.  That means that there could be a significant time delay between when a question is asked and when it may be answered.  It also may not be answered, this happens.  When a question is not answered, it’s because no one knows the answer, not because it wasn’t seen.  Please don’t ask again hours later or the next day.

1.        That you read, absorb, and accept the following:

It is impossible to help individuals who will not listen to advice unless they like that advice. Being a good assistant is not about making the person assisted "feel good," but about both asking the right (and sometimes hard) questions as well as giving the information necessary to achieve the desired result. Getting help is a two-way street, and those asking for help have work they must do, too, when asked. They also need to be ready to let go of what they'd like to do, and instead do what's been asked for by the person offering assistance.

 

               Those receiving assistance are free to reject advice, you are also entitled to ask for clarification, but if you don’t want to do what your assistant is asking, then state that so that you can both can move along.  Assistants have every right to assist as they see fit, and those being assisted to either follow or reject the option(s) presented.  An assistant is within their rights to withdraw support at any time, for any reason.

------------ 
These groups are not, and should not be considered, pure Q&A venues.  They are about increasing personal skills and independence as much as answering questions, and very often doing the former means not spoon-feeding the answers, but guiding the questioner through the steps to, in a careful way, find them for themselves.  And in the end, you remember things better when you've had assistance in working your own way through something to find your own way of doing it.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next.  We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

        ~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner 

 


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

 

Thats a valid point, often I have told a sightling where to click and its not that at all.

The reader layout and what it translates maybe completely different.

On 31/12/2020 3:24 pm, Chris Smart wrote:
Sarah, if you're reading this, remember that what your screen reader calls something may not at all be what a sighted people sees. You may say "click on where it says 'sound settings'" and they may only see a little icon of a microphone.  How do you account for discrepancies like that?




On 2020-12-30 9:22 p.m., Rosemarie Chavarria wrote:
I agree. If I was a beginning computer user, I wouldn't want Sarah as my instructor. If she's gonna tell people to click on something, she might as well say "point and click". I say that because I actually had a teacher yell at me because I couldn't use the mouse to click on something. I too hope Sarah doesn't teach older computer users or beginners to the computer.



On 12/30/2020 6:12 PM, Mary Otten wrote:
Gee, Sarah, I hope you don't teach older blind people and/or beginners. Much too demanding for a beginner to expect that. Let's blind fold the sighted folks and tell them to do just keyboard stuff, no clicks. There isn't a one size fits all, and often people who have mastered a lot think everybody else should do the same to the same extent, or they're not worth messing with. I've seen that with blind supertechies, self-styled, and it is disgusting.


Off tipic, maybe. But I'm just  responding to what I dfeel is an absurd approach.


Mary


On 12/30/2020 6:02 PM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:

Oh no. I tell a blind person click this and click that, and if they cannot follow my directions, then it's not my problem. they need to learn how to translate that into what ever that means for them. If they fail to do so, they will be left behind, and I cannot do anything about that.

--

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website. <http://www.tffppodcast.com>

Check out my adventures with a shadow machine. <http://tffppodcast.com/shadow>

to subscribe to the feed click here <http://feeds.feedburner.com/tffp> and you can also follow us on twitter <http://twitter.com/tffppodcast>

Our discord <http://discord.tffppodcast.com> is where you will know when we go live on twitch. <http://twitch.tv/ke7zum> Feel free to give the channel a follow and see what is up there.

For stream archives, products you can buy and more visit my main lbry page <http://lbry.tv/@ke7zum> and my tffp lbry page <http://lbry.tv/@tffp> You will also be able to buy some of my products and eBooks there.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here <Http://patreon.com/tffppodcast>

On 30 Dec 2020, at 16:08, Brian Vogel wrote:

    On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 02:32 PM, Arlene wrote:

        You’d be a good advocate for blind users who have to fight
        with isp providers.  You know how they say click here or
        there. They have no clue that you are a blind user. I’ve
        encountered someone who had no clue that I don’t see.

    -
    Now, Arlene, I'll probably end up causing you some offense while
    at the same time praising you and trashing the clueless sighted, too.

    I have been a good advocate on many occasions for multiple
    issues.  But, at the same time, there are "click here and click
    there" instructions that should be simple to follow, while there
    are others that are impossible to follow.  There are plenty of
    sighted individuals (like I have to say this here), and
    particularly techs, who have probably never dealt with an
    individual who is blind let alone with a screen reader. If you
    ask most of your sighted friends and acquaintances who've never
    been around someone who's blind when they're using a computer how
    they think that would work, they generally can't answer. I could
    not have answered this during my many years in the computer biz,
    and that was, I would say, for the majority of my many years in
    the computer biz. The whole concept of something so visually
    driven in the most common user interface is almost impossible to
    conceive of via other modalities.  Those of us who see "swim in
    sight" like it's water and we're Esther Williams and, for obvious
    reasons, that's a taken for granted thing.  Just like those of us
    who can hear do the same for audition.  You just don't think about
    sensory modalities you lack, or how those would be substituted,
    when you have no real reason to in daily existence.

    I honestly think it sometimes just doesn't register with some
    techs when you identify yourself as blind (which, I will add, is
    absolutely your responsibility when engaging technical support -
    they can't read minds) and for many where it does, what they are
    doing and saying is out of force of habit rather than malice or
    stupidity.  It's probably ignorance more than anything. But
    sometimes you have to guide them, and teach them something, when
    they're trying to guide you in a way that can't work. Were
    someone to say, "Click on the gear icon," responding with, "I
    can't see that, but do you mean you want me to open settings?," is
    going to get both sides of the equation something they need.  You
    get clarity (or hopefully you do) and the tech gets clued in,
    however subtly and possibly temporarily, that there is a way to
    reference things that is not purely visual.  They'll usually keep
    screwing up out of force of habit during any given session, but if
    you keep instructing them about what you need, they'll often be
    willing to rephrase.  For certain things, it's worth trying to get
    the point across that giving reference points, is something worth
    doing.  A response like, "Click on the red button at the upper
    left is meaningless for me, but is there another button or link
    very near to it?  If I can find that, I can likely find what's
    next to it."   There really are not, and never will be, enough
    technicians out there versed in screen readers and blindness to
    provide support for every product that exists, particularly for
    smaller companies.  But many techs really want to help, they just
    have no idea of exactly how, and you can serve to teach them how
    to an extent while getting the help you need.

    All of the above being said, make no mistake, I know all too well
    that you will get plenty of clueless and hostile (or at least very
    passive and unwilling to work with you) techs. But there are lots
    of folks who will quickly recognize that you are not clueless
    about what you need, and that they, while they may be clueless
    about how you get to it, can still find a way to meet you in the
    middle where you can both get what you want.

    I worked for many years in brain injury services, and I used to
    tell my patients/clients who were brain injured and trying to make
    their way back into "the world at large" that they would
    constantly, endlessly, have to be their own best advocates and to
    educate the clueless.  It's not a choice, because that's another
    population that's such a tiny niche in humanity at large that
    there will never come a time when most people they meet and
    interact with will have any idea about what it is to be brain
    injured or what a brain injured individual might need. The thing
    that someone who's had a brain injury has going against them that
    most blind people will not is the presumption that they are
    incapable of understanding a very great many things that they
    can.  And one of the most difficult self-advocation skills I used
    to teach is temper control when the clueless deserve a shovel
    upside the head for how obnoxious they're being and keeping
    composure so that you can clearly communicate what you need and
    what you're capable of.

    Almost anyone with almost any disability is saddled with the added
    responsibility of having to be advocate and teacher as a part of
    their daily life where the majority do not.  But I do not ever see
    any way that will change.  It's the result of relative sizes of
    given demographics in the population at large.  When you're a
    niche, you're a niche.  Rebelling against the larger world because
    you have that added burden does not do any damage to the larger
    world.  In fact, by and large, they couldn't care less because in
    most instances they don't have to.  But that doesn't mean that
    those same people are malicious or stupid, just ignorant, and many
    really would love to help if they are taught how that's
    appropriately given.  And, believe me, the last thing you want is
    to have them guess, because those guesses will be wrong 99.999% of
    the time.

    --
    Brian -Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042

    [Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by
    Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:] /Pleased with
    the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of
    where this crazy train goes next.  We should know by now there’s a
    bottomless supply of crazy./

            ~ Brendan Buck, /former adviser to Speakers of the House
    Paul Ryan and John Boehner/










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