Date   

Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Rosemarie Chavarria
 

I live in the world too--and not a fantasy world where there's a blind world and sighted world. I live in the real world.

On 12/30/2020 10:29 PM, Buddy Brannan wrote:
I dunno about the rest of you, but I sure don’t live in a sighted world. Or a blind world. I live in…wait for it…the world. All of this “sighted world” and “blind world” and what not drives me up a tree. Also, Brian, you do so well, I mean you handle all of this stuff so well, we nearly forget your handicap. (He says, with tongue firmly in cheek)


Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
Email: buddy@brannan.name
Mobile: (814) 431-0962



On Dec 31, 2020, at 12:07 AM, Sarah k Alawami <marrie12@gmail.com> wrote:

We live in a sighted world. You must think in sighted terms, no matter your age. I was taught like this by an older instructor of music. None of us got left behind, and for those of us that did, they dropped quickly leaving the rest of us to pass. I'm not a super tech, but I do read and observe a lot so I don't fall behind.

--

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website.

Check out my adventures with a shadow machine.

to subscribe to the feed click here and you can also follow us on twitter

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on twitch. Feel free to give the channel a follow and see what is up there.

For stream archives, products you can buy and more visit my main lbry page and my tffp lbry page You will also be able to buy some of my products and eBooks there.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 30 Dec 2020, at 18:12, Mary Otten wrote:

Gee, Sarah, I hope you don't teach older blind people and/or beginners. Much too demanding for a beginner to expect that. Let's blind fold the sighted folks and tell them to do just keyboard stuff, no clicks. There isn't a one size fits all, and often people who have mastered a lot think everybody else should do the same to the same extent, or they're not worth messing with. I've seen that with blind supertechies, self-styled, and it is disgusting.



Off tipic, maybe. But I'm just responding to what I dfeel is an absurd approach.



Mary



On 12/30/2020 6:02 PM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:
Oh no. I tell a blind person click this and click that, and if they cannot follow my directions, then it's not my problem. they need to learn how to translate that into what ever that means for them. If they fail to do so, they will be left behind, and I cannot do anything about that.

--

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website.

Check out my adventures with a shadow machine.

to subscribe to the feed click here and you can also follow us on twitter

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on twitch. Feel free to give the channel a follow and see what is up there.

For stream archives, products you can buy and more visit my main lbry page and my tffp lbry page You will also be able to buy some of my products and eBooks there.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 30 Dec 2020, at 16:08, Brian Vogel wrote:

On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 02:32 PM, Arlene wrote:
You’d be a good advocate for blind users who have to fight with isp providers. You know how they say click here or there. They have no clue that you are a blind user. I’ve encountered someone who had no clue that I don’t see.
-
Now, Arlene, I'll probably end up causing you some offense while at the same time praising you and trashing the clueless sighted, too.

I have been a good advocate on many occasions for multiple issues. But, at the same time, there are "click here and click there" instructions that should be simple to follow, while there are others that are impossible to follow. There are plenty of sighted individuals (like I have to say this here), and particularly techs, who have probably never dealt with an individual who is blind let alone with a screen reader. If you ask most of your sighted friends and acquaintances who've never been around someone who's blind when they're using a computer how they think that would work, they generally can't answer. I could not have answered this during my many years in the computer biz, and that was, I would say, for the majority of my many years in the computer biz. The whole concept of something so visually driven in the most common user interface is almost impossible to conceive of via other modalities. Those of us who see "swim in sight" like it's water and we're Esther Williams and, for obvious reasons, that's a taken for granted thing. Just like those of us who can hear do the same for audition. You just don't think about sensory modalities you lack, or how those would be substituted, when you have no real reason to in daily existence.

I honestly think it sometimes just doesn't register with some techs when you identify yourself as blind (which, I will add, is absolutely your responsibility when engaging technical support - they can't read minds) and for many where it does, what they are doing and saying is out of force of habit rather than malice or stupidity. It's probably ignorance more than anything. But sometimes you have to guide them, and teach them something, when they're trying to guide you in a way that can't work. Were someone to say, "Click on the gear icon," responding with, "I can't see that, but do you mean you want me to open settings?," is going to get both sides of the equation something they need. You get clarity (or hopefully you do) and the tech gets clued in, however subtly and possibly temporarily, that there is a way to reference things that is not purely visual. They'll usually keep screwing up out of force of habit during any given session, but if you keep instructing them about what you need, they'll often be willing to rephrase. For certain things, it's worth trying to get the point across that giving reference points, is something worth doing. A response like, "Click on the red button at the upper left is meaningless for me, but is there another button or link very near to it? If I can find that, I can likely find what's next to it." There really are not, and never will be, enough technicians out there versed in screen readers and blindness to provide support for every product that exists, particularly for smaller companies. But many techs really want to help, they just have no idea of exactly how, and you can serve to teach them how to an extent while getting the help you need.

All of the above being said, make no mistake, I know all too well that you will get plenty of clueless and hostile (or at least very passive and unwilling to work with you) techs. But there are lots of folks who will quickly recognize that you are not clueless about what you need, and that they, while they may be clueless about how you get to it, can still find a way to meet you in the middle where you can both get what you want.

I worked for many years in brain injury services, and I used to tell my patients/clients who were brain injured and trying to make their way back into "the world at large" that they would constantly, endlessly, have to be their own best advocates and to educate the clueless. It's not a choice, because that's another population that's such a tiny niche in humanity at large that there will never come a time when most people they meet and interact with will have any idea about what it is to be brain injured or what a brain injured individual might need. The thing that someone who's had a brain injury has going against them that most blind people will not is the presumption that they are incapable of understanding a very great many things that they can. And one of the most difficult self-advocation skills I used to teach is temper control when the clueless deserve a shovel upside the head for how obnoxious they're being and keeping composure so that you can clearly communicate what you need and what you're capable of.

Almost anyone with almost any disability is saddled with the added responsibility of having to be advocate and teacher as a part of their daily life where the majority do not. But I do not ever see any way that will change. It's the result of relative sizes of given demographics in the population at large. When you're a niche, you're a niche. Rebelling against the larger world because you have that added burden does not do any damage to the larger world. In fact, by and large, they couldn't care less because in most instances they don't have to. But that doesn't mean that those same people are malicious or stupid, just ignorant, and many really would love to help if they are taught how that's appropriately given. And, believe me, the last thing you want is to have them guess, because those guesses will be wrong 99.999% of the time.

--
Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042
[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:] Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next. We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.
~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner



Re: NVDA and ctrl+a

Gene
 

In what program? Control a is a windows command and I don't know if there are any programs where NVDA might cause this to happen. But if people are going to check, this, we should know the program where you observed this.

Also, what are you describing? Are you talking about visually seeing what is on screen?

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: John J. Boyer
Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2020 9:55 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] NVDA and ctrl+a

Hello,

When I pressed ctrl+a to select an entire file only the first line was highlighted. This gave me quite a start.
Further investigation showed, however, that everything was selected. Apparently NVDA was showing only the first line. It used to show everything as highlighted.

John

--
John J. Boyer
Email: john.boyer@abilitiessoft.org
website: http://www.abilitiessoft.org
Status: Company dissolved but website and email addresses live.
Location: Madison, Wisconsin, USA
Mission: developing assistive technology software and providing STEM services
that are available at no cost


NVDA and ctrl+a

John J. Boyer
 

Hello,

When I pressed ctrl+a to select an entire file only the first line was highlighted. This gave me quite a start.
Further investigation showed, however, that everything was selected. Apparently NVDA was showing only the first line. It used to show everything as highlighted.

John

--
John J. Boyer
Email: john.boyer@abilitiessoft.org
website: http://www.abilitiessoft.org
Status: Company dissolved but website and email addresses live.
Location: Madison, Wisconsin, USA
Mission: developing assistive technology software and providing STEM services
that are available at no cost


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Betsy Grenevitch
 

Brian, thank you for all the help you give on this list. It is great to have you here. Thanks for your help with me in the past.



On 12/30/2020 6:33 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 03:19 PM, Jackie wrote:
I think Arlene was just trying to say that Brian doesn't instruct like most sighted folks. The context of the message bears that out, Ibelieve.
-
And that's how I read it, and particularly in reference to my avoiding "point and click" terminology when speaking to a blind and visually impaired audience, which I try to be very mindful to avoid.

Yet, Gene is correct is his observation that it is every bit as incumbent on blind users to have the mental tools at their disposal to "translate" a point and click instruction set to keyboard user equivalent.  When I tutor, this is something I teach when necessary.  Most of my students have been individuals who are formerly sighted, so they implicitly understand "point and click" style in instruction sets, and what I teach them is not only how to use a screen reader, per se, but what the translations from sighted-focused terminology to keyboard-focused terminology is.  They should, at the end, be able to look at an instruction set written for either the sighted or the blind and be equally comfortable following either.

As Mike Capelle noted, "We all live in a sighted world," and I don't think there's a single reader here who does not understand what he meant.  Like the old Palmolive commercial:  You're soaking in it.

While any given individual can make any choices they see fit, choices have consequences.  And if you're a blind computer user who, by choice, cuts yourself off from "sighted centric" instructions, you are cutting yourself off from the vast majority of material out there that can answer many questions you have.

I do not rewrite the instruction sets I have written for keyboard-focused audiences when I post same in sighted-centric venues.  I make a point of saying, "This was written with blind individuals in mind, and is keyboard focused, but you [the random sighted user] should easily be able to translate these to using the mouse."  I fully expect that this should work in the opposite direction, too, and make no apology for that.  I do offer pointers to certain sighted-centric instructions, not written by me, because they're good instruction sets.  I don't think that it's impossible to know that, "click on," means "gain focus on and select," "double click on, " means, "activate by your preferred method, etc.  It's a basic skill that anyone who wishes to expand their own computer use expertise should acquire.  And heaven knows there are a very great number of members other than myself who can assist if you happen to be someone in the translation acquisition phase of your own education.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next.  We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

        ~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner 

 

--
Betsy Grenevitch 678-862-3876


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Gene
 

A correction:
the first message I sent about my disagreements with Brian was incorrect. it didn't give a correct description of the kind of disagreements we have and it misrepresented what Brian does. My example of stating a specific object navigation command isn't what Brian objects to and he hasn't done so.

I was trying to think of an example of our disagreements without rehashing the arguments we had and I gave an example that is not correct.

The kinds of disagreements we have are about such things as the use of the archives. My contention is that on a list with members ranging from people who know little to people who know a lot, expecting members to use the archives before posting questions discourages less knowledgeable people from asking questions. I have no objection to encouraging people to use the archives if it is done as a suggestion and if how to do this is explained from time to time, but I think going farther is not what should be done.

Brian has strong feelings on subjects like this and so do i. I was afraid that Brian would emphasize that issue to the point where it would discourage unknowledgeable people in use of the archives from asking questions but it appears to me that he doesn't do so to that point.

I'm sorry that I misrepresented his position and what he does in an attempt not to go into issues we have disagreed about a lot in the past.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Gene
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2020 10:25 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

I don't want to misrepresent my position nor yours. You and I have differed
about other things as well such as if it is a good idea to expect, on a list
with people ranging in so much knowledge and ability for people to use the
archives. Gently encouraging it is one thing but I think going beyond that
isn't a good idea. But I don't believe that people should be treated or
assumed to know nothing. I have certain areas of disagreement with you. We
have areas of agreement as well.

AsI said, I don't want to argue these things again but in discussing why I
object to how you carachterized my position, I wanted to be more clear about
the differences.
Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: Gene
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2020 10:06 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

All it tells me is that you haven't had these debates to any extent with
anyone else so who else could it be? While I could just say something like
use object navigation to find and work with whatever is being discussed,
that isn't efficient. it would often lead to another question being asked
and answered when I can simply give a commandor two and have the person do
what is necessary.

Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2020 9:52 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 10:36 PM, Gene wrote:
My position is that there are times when too much knowledge is assumed or
expected on a list with people at all sorts of skill levels.-
And it's my position that when this occurs, and it will, it's up to the
questioner to ask for clarification. I cannot and will not even come close
to presuming minimal skill levels in the vast majority of cases, and you
have taken me to task, repeatedly, for having done so.

If someone does not understand what I'm saying, or what I've told them, or
what something means, then, by all means, ask me a follow-up question.
That's what adults do, and should be expected to do. Nothing more, nothing
less.

And it's interesting to me how you recognize who I'm making reference to,
when I took pains not to be explicit. That should tell you something.
--


Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to
overturn the votes certified by 4 states:] Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling,
but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next.
We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan
and John Boehner


Word 2013 ribbon and NVDA 2020.3

bering.p
 

Hi Lucas.
By terminating UIAHandler, lower ribbon is now accessible, even being collapsed.
This is the log:.
nvda log 1
Paul.
Le 31/12/2020 12:29, Lukasz Golonka via groups.io a écrit :

Thanks for your log.  Could you please perform the same test one more
time for me but before tabbing through the ribbon open Python console
and execute:
import UIAHandler; UIAHandler.terminate()

and then send the log to me?

Thanks for your cooperation.



Re: How to turn off NVDA

Robert Doc Wright godfearer
 

Is the reason why you don't won't NVDA on is that there will be multiple users? If so why not create a separate profile for the person who does not need NVDA. In that profile you can go to startup tab in task manager and disable NVDA and it should not come up for that profile. Then each person can choose their name at the login screen and have what they need.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Food Posse" <allaboutfoodandfun@hotmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Monday, December 28, 2020 7:25 AM
Subject: [nvda] How to turn off NVDA


Can anyone help to fully turn off NVDA?

We are trying to set up a new computer for a friend and installed NVDA.
We are not familiar with screen readers so we launched NVDA to test it
for her. Then we tried to quit NVDA with insert + Q then OK, but NVDA
continued to run. No matter what we tried to quit, NVDA continued to
run. We finally went to the task manager to end task to stop NVDA. But
then NVDA automatically came back on whenever we installed or launched a
new program. We tried searching online for help but the Insert + Q or
Exit was the only option offered. But that option does not work for us.

When we turned Narrator on and off, it stayed off until we selected to
activate it. Is there a similar setting or way to turn off NVDA and for
it to stay off until we select to turn it on? Thank you for any help
the group can offer.


Re: Word 2013 ribbon and NVDA 2020.3

Lukasz Golonka
 

Thanks for your log. Could you please perform the same test one more
time for me but before tabbing through the ribbon open Python console
and execute:
import UIAHandler; UIAHandler.terminate()

and then send the log to me?

Thanks for your cooperation.

--
Regards
Lukasz

On Wed, 30 Dec 2020 18:50:50 +0100
"bering.p" <bering.p@wanadoo.fr> wrote:

Hi.
I don'find t the link.
So this is the log:
<https://fil.email/BWc5RJSK>nvda log
Best regards. Paul.
Le 30/12/2020 11:13, Lukasz Golonka via groups.io a écrit :

Unfortunately list does not allow attachments, so I haven't got your log. Please activate the link that says ', Reply To Sender' at the bottom of the message and attach it there.



Re: NVDA and outlook questions

 

I just did some tests with Outlook to see if I can reproduce the issue you mentioned, and it seems that I did not encounter the issue you described. NVDA seems to work perfectly in Outlook, in the to field. When I started typing, NVDA instantly reads out the matching address it finds, and NVDA also reads out the suggestions as I arrowed through them.
For your information, the version of Outlook I got from the about Outlook page is Microsoft Outlook for Microsoft 365 version 16.0.13426.20352 64-bit. I'm using NVDA 2020.3.


Questions regarding SwitchSynth

Morne van der Merwe
 

Good day list,

 

I use a laptop with the latest version of Windows, as well as NVDA.

 

I have two questions regarding the SwitchSynth addon.

 

According to the addon, there are six slots to load languages on. The first slot, however, doesn’t work. I can only load language from slot 2 onwards.

 

When I select my language, the settings ring does not work. I have to reload NVDA in order for the settings ring to function.

 

Any help will be much appreciated.

 

Regards

 

Morné


Re: SPSS and NVDA

William
 

Well, you mentioned that you need to use SPSSS regularly, so how do you use it if it is not accessible?


harad Koirala 於 31/12/2020 11:17 寫道:

hi,

my work also requires regular use of SPSS which I have been skipping on my own loss.

I had raised the issue about it in the NVDAcon Asia which happened around 2015-16 where Joseph Lee was very elaborate in answering the question but the technicalities could not go into my head :) (I am not a wise tech user). Anyway, the conclusion was that SPSS was not accessible with NVDA and changes were to be made by both IBM (the developer of SPSS) and NVDA to make it usable with a screen reader.

Since then, I have been waiting for the development.

Sincerely yours,
Dr. Sharad Koirala
Lecturer
Department of Community Medicine
Gandaki Medical College, Pokhara, Nepal




Re: SPSS and NVDA

William
 

In fact, I can try doing the calculation of data using python, numpy and pandas.

But the truth is that, Acadamic world require acadamic paper to be completed based on SPSS.

But if SPSS is not accessible, we visually impaired are forced to be excluded from this area.

In fact the same case apply to qualitative study software.




Brian Vogel 於 31/12/2020 11:17 寫道:


William,

          You're quite welcome.  I have to say that my experience with SPSS in the very, very distant past (about 40 years ago), and as a sighted computer science major, showed it to be more than a little inaccessible, and I don't mean in the screen reader sense.  But, of course, since stats was "not my thing" I was less than motivated to dig deeply.

           It's amazing how long SPSS (Statistical Package for the Social Sciences - or at least I presume that's your reference) has been around.  I think it's almost as old as I am!
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next.  We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

        ~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner 

 


Re: Problem in the latest beta of NVDA

Vaibhav Bhandari
 

Thanks for the info and link. I'll try out the fix.

On 12/30/20, Iván Novegil via groups.io <ivan.novegil=nvda.es@groups.io> wrote:
This is being discussed in an issue at NVDA repository.

https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/11968

From there you can even download a try build with the suggested fix to
test and report if it solves the issue.


Regards.

Iván Novegil Cancelas
Editor
ivan.novegil@nvda.es <mailto:ivan.novegil@nvda.es>
Experto certificado en NVDA <https://certification.nvaccess.org>

NVDA.es Logo
Comunidad hispanohablante de NVDA | Proyecto NVDA.es
- www.NVDA.es <https://nvda.es>
- @nvda_es <https://twitter.com/nvda_es>

Usuario do NVDA en galego

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O 30/12/2020 á(s) 16:20, Vaibhav Bhandari escribiu:
Hi all,
I recently updated to the latest beta version of NVDA in which I have
been facing a really weerd issue.
The problem is that whenever I switch my listening device from my
earphone to my bluetooth headphones, the sounds that NVDA makes while
entering/exiting focus/brows mode, exiting NVDA and enabling/desabling
screen curtain can't be heard. I then have to restart NVDA for those
sounds to return.
I didn't face this particular issue in the previous versions of NVDA
so I wished to ask if it is a bta related issue?




--
Thanks/regards: Vaibhav Bhandari


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Chris Smart
 

Right, but you, as a screen reader user, don't know it's a mic icon, a gear icon, solely from what your screen reader has told you. Where do you pick up that information? From sighted folks?



On 2020-12-31 12:08 a.m., Sarah k Alawami wrote:

You might say "click on settings" or "if that doesn't say settings, click on the mic icon."

--

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website.

Check out my adventures with a shadow machine.

to subscribe to the feed click here and you can also follow us on twitter

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on twitch. Feel free to give the channel a follow and see what is up there.

For stream archives, products you can buy and more visit my main lbry page and my tffp lbry page You will also be able to buy some of my products and eBooks there.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 30 Dec 2020, at 18:24, Chris Smart wrote:

Sarah, if you're reading this, remember that what your screen reader calls something may not at all be what a sighted people sees. You may say "click on where it says 'sound settings'" and they may only see a little icon of a microphone.  How do you account for discrepancies like that?

On 2020-12-30 9:22 p.m., Rosemarie Chavarria wrote:

I agree. If I was a beginning computer user, I wouldn't want Sarah as my instructor. If she's gonna tell people to click on something, she might as well say "point and click". I say that because I actually had a teacher yell at me because I couldn't use the mouse to click on something. I too hope Sarah doesn't teach older computer users or beginners to the computer.

On 12/30/2020 6:12 PM, Mary Otten wrote:

Gee, Sarah, I hope you don't teach older blind people and/or beginners. Much too demanding for a beginner to expect that. Let's blind fold the sighted folks and tell them to do just keyboard stuff, no clicks. There isn't a one size fits all, and often people who have mastered a lot think everybody else should do the same to the same extent, or they're not worth messing with. I've seen that with blind supertechies, self-styled, and it is disgusting.

Off tipic, maybe. But I'm just  responding to what I dfeel is an absurd approach.

Mary

On 12/30/2020 6:02 PM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:

Oh no. I tell a blind person click this and click that, and if they cannot follow my directions, then it's not my problem. they need to learn how to translate that into what ever that means for them. If they fail to do so, they will be left behind, and I cannot do anything about that.

--

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website. http://www.tffppodcast.com

Check out my adventures with a shadow machine. http://tffppodcast.com/shadow

to subscribe to the feed click here http://feeds.feedburner.com/tffp and you can also follow us on twitter http://twitter.com/tffppodcast

Our discord http://discord.tffppodcast.com is where you will know when we go live on twitch. http://twitch.tv/ke7zum Feel free to give the channel a follow and see what is up there.

For stream archives, products you can buy and more visit my main lbry page http://lbry.tv/@ke7zum and my tffp lbry page http://lbry.tv/@tffp You will also be able to buy some of my products and eBooks there.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here Http://patreon.com/tffppodcast

On 30 Dec 2020, at 16:08, Brian Vogel wrote:

    On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 02:32 PM, Arlene wrote:

        You’d be a good advocate for blind users who have to fight
        with isp providers.  You know how they say click here or
        there. They have no clue that you are a blind user. I’ve
        encountered someone who had no clue that I don’t see.

    -
    Now, Arlene, I'll probably end up causing you some offense while
    at the same time praising you and trashing the clueless sighted, too.

    I have been a good advocate on many occasions for multiple
    issues.  But, at the same time, there are "click here and click
    there" instructions that should be simple to follow, while there
    are others that are impossible to follow.  There are plenty of
    sighted individuals (like I have to say this here), and
    particularly techs, who have probably never dealt with an
    individual who is blind let alone with a screen reader. If you
    ask most of your sighted friends and acquaintances who've never
    been around someone who's blind when they're using a computer how
    they think that would work, they generally can't answer. I could
    not have answered this during my many years in the computer biz,
    and that was, I would say, for the majority of my many years in
    the computer biz. The whole concept of something so visually
    driven in the most common user interface is almost impossible to
    conceive of via other modalities.  Those of us who see "swim in
    sight" like it's water and we're Esther Williams and, for obvious
    reasons, that's a taken for granted thing.  Just like those of us
    who can hear do the same for audition.  You just don't think about
    sensory modalities you lack, or how those would be substituted,
    when you have no real reason to in daily existence.

    I honestly think it sometimes just doesn't register with some
    techs when you identify yourself as blind (which, I will add, is
    absolutely your responsibility when engaging technical support -
    they can't read minds) and for many where it does, what they are
    doing and saying is out of force of habit rather than malice or
    stupidity.  It's probably ignorance more than anything. But
    sometimes you have to guide them, and teach them something, when
    they're trying to guide you in a way that can't work. Were
    someone to say, "Click on the gear icon," responding with, "I
    can't see that, but do you mean you want me to open settings?," is
    going to get both sides of the equation something they need.  You
    get clarity (or hopefully you do) and the tech gets clued in,
    however subtly and possibly temporarily, that there is a way to
    reference things that is not purely visual.  They'll usually keep
    screwing up out of force of habit during any given session, but if
    you keep instructing them about what you need, they'll often be
    willing to rephrase.  For certain things, it's worth trying to get
    the point across that giving reference points, is something worth
    doing.  A response like, "Click on the red button at the upper
    left is meaningless for me, but is there another button or link
    very near to it?  If I can find that, I can likely find what's
    next to it."   There really are not, and never will be, enough
    technicians out there versed in screen readers and blindness to
    provide support for every product that exists, particularly for
    smaller companies.  But many techs really want to help, they just
    have no idea of exactly how, and you can serve to teach them how
    to an extent while getting the help you need.

    All of the above being said, make no mistake, I know all too well
    that you will get plenty of clueless and hostile (or at least very
    passive and unwilling to work with you) techs. But there are lots
    of folks who will quickly recognize that you are not clueless
    about what you need, and that they, while they may be clueless
    about how you get to it, can still find a way to meet you in the
    middle where you can both get what you want.

    I worked for many years in brain injury services, and I used to
    tell my patients/clients who were brain injured and trying to make
    their way back into "the world at large" that they would
    constantly, endlessly, have to be their own best advocates and to
    educate the clueless.  It's not a choice, because that's another
    population that's such a tiny niche in humanity at large that
    there will never come a time when most people they meet and
    interact with will have any idea about what it is to be brain
    injured or what a brain injured individual might need. The thing
    that someone who's had a brain injury has going against them that
    most blind people will not is the presumption that they are
    incapable of understanding a very great many things that they
    can.  And one of the most difficult self-advocation skills I used
    to teach is temper control when the clueless deserve a shovel
    upside the head for how obnoxious they're being and keeping
    composure so that you can clearly communicate what you need and
    what you're capable of.

    Almost anyone with almost any disability is saddled with the added
    responsibility of having to be advocate and teacher as a part of
    their daily life where the majority do not.  But I do not ever see
    any way that will change.  It's the result of relative sizes of
    given demographics in the population at large.  When you're a
    niche, you're a niche.  Rebelling against the larger world because
    you have that added burden does not do any damage to the larger
    world.  In fact, by and large, they couldn't care less because in
    most instances they don't have to.  But that doesn't mean that
    those same people are malicious or stupid, just ignorant, and many
    really would love to help if they are taught how that's
    appropriately given.  And, believe me, the last thing you want is
    to have them guess, because those guesses will be wrong 99.999% of
    the time.

    --
    Brian -Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042

    [Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by
    Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:] /Pleased with
    the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of
    where this crazy train goes next.  We should know by now there’s a
    bottomless supply of crazy./

            ~ Brendan Buck, /former adviser to Speakers of the House
    Paul Ryan and John Boehner/


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

 

Well I live in my own world these days.

The sighted one well.

The blind one, tried it but didn't like it.

There are the successfull ones, they're out of there by now.

There are the guys that managed to get into a group and survive and there are the singles and others like me.

I have ffound a hole to crawl into.

My world exists underground.

I keep both others in reach but unless its needed I try not to interact with either within reason.

I don't know many others in the blind world to be sorry with not interacting with any of my type though.

On 31/12/2020 7:29 pm, Buddy Brannan wrote:
I dunno about the rest of you, but I sure don’t live in a sighted world. Or a blind world. I live in…wait for it…the world. All of this “sighted world” and “blind world” and what not drives me up a tree. Also, Brian, you do so well, I mean you handle all of this stuff so well, we nearly forget your handicap. (He says, with tongue firmly in cheek)


Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
Email: buddy@brannan.name
Mobile: (814) 431-0962



On Dec 31, 2020, at 12:07 AM, Sarah k Alawami <marrie12@gmail.com> wrote:

We live in a sighted world. You must think in sighted terms, no matter your age. I was taught like this by an older instructor of music. None of us got left behind, and for those of us that did, they dropped quickly leaving the rest of us to pass. I'm not a super tech, but I do read and observe a lot so I don't fall behind.

--

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website.

Check out my adventures with a shadow machine.

to subscribe to the feed click here and you can also follow us on twitter

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on twitch. Feel free to give the channel a follow and see what is up there.

For stream archives, products you can buy and more visit my main lbry page and my tffp lbry page You will also be able to buy some of my products and eBooks there.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 30 Dec 2020, at 18:12, Mary Otten wrote:

Gee, Sarah, I hope you don't teach older blind people and/or beginners. Much too demanding for a beginner to expect that. Let's blind fold the sighted folks and tell them to do just keyboard stuff, no clicks. There isn't a one size fits all, and often people who have mastered a lot think everybody else should do the same to the same extent, or they're not worth messing with. I've seen that with blind supertechies, self-styled, and it is disgusting.



Off tipic, maybe. But I'm just responding to what I dfeel is an absurd approach.



Mary



On 12/30/2020 6:02 PM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:
Oh no. I tell a blind person click this and click that, and if they cannot follow my directions, then it's not my problem. they need to learn how to translate that into what ever that means for them. If they fail to do so, they will be left behind, and I cannot do anything about that.

--

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website.

Check out my adventures with a shadow machine.

to subscribe to the feed click here and you can also follow us on twitter

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on twitch. Feel free to give the channel a follow and see what is up there.

For stream archives, products you can buy and more visit my main lbry page and my tffp lbry page You will also be able to buy some of my products and eBooks there.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 30 Dec 2020, at 16:08, Brian Vogel wrote:

On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 02:32 PM, Arlene wrote:
You’d be a good advocate for blind users who have to fight with isp providers. You know how they say click here or there. They have no clue that you are a blind user. I’ve encountered someone who had no clue that I don’t see.
-
Now, Arlene, I'll probably end up causing you some offense while at the same time praising you and trashing the clueless sighted, too.

I have been a good advocate on many occasions for multiple issues. But, at the same time, there are "click here and click there" instructions that should be simple to follow, while there are others that are impossible to follow. There are plenty of sighted individuals (like I have to say this here), and particularly techs, who have probably never dealt with an individual who is blind let alone with a screen reader. If you ask most of your sighted friends and acquaintances who've never been around someone who's blind when they're using a computer how they think that would work, they generally can't answer. I could not have answered this during my many years in the computer biz, and that was, I would say, for the majority of my many years in the computer biz. The whole concept of something so visually driven in the most common user interface is almost impossible to conceive of via other modalities. Those of us who see "swim in sight" like it's water and we're Esther Williams and, for obvious reasons, that's a taken for granted thing. Just like those of us who can hear do the same for audition. You just don't think about sensory modalities you lack, or how those would be substituted, when you have no real reason to in daily existence.

I honestly think it sometimes just doesn't register with some techs when you identify yourself as blind (which, I will add, is absolutely your responsibility when engaging technical support - they can't read minds) and for many where it does, what they are doing and saying is out of force of habit rather than malice or stupidity. It's probably ignorance more than anything. But sometimes you have to guide them, and teach them something, when they're trying to guide you in a way that can't work. Were someone to say, "Click on the gear icon," responding with, "I can't see that, but do you mean you want me to open settings?," is going to get both sides of the equation something they need. You get clarity (or hopefully you do) and the tech gets clued in, however subtly and possibly temporarily, that there is a way to reference things that is not purely visual. They'll usually keep screwing up out of force of habit during any given session, but if you keep instructing them about what you need, they'll often be willing to rephrase. For certain things, it's worth trying to get the point across that giving reference points, is something worth doing. A response like, "Click on the red button at the upper left is meaningless for me, but is there another button or link very near to it? If I can find that, I can likely find what's next to it." There really are not, and never will be, enough technicians out there versed in screen readers and blindness to provide support for every product that exists, particularly for smaller companies. But many techs really want to help, they just have no idea of exactly how, and you can serve to teach them how to an extent while getting the help you need.

All of the above being said, make no mistake, I know all too well that you will get plenty of clueless and hostile (or at least very passive and unwilling to work with you) techs. But there are lots of folks who will quickly recognize that you are not clueless about what you need, and that they, while they may be clueless about how you get to it, can still find a way to meet you in the middle where you can both get what you want.

I worked for many years in brain injury services, and I used to tell my patients/clients who were brain injured and trying to make their way back into "the world at large" that they would constantly, endlessly, have to be their own best advocates and to educate the clueless. It's not a choice, because that's another population that's such a tiny niche in humanity at large that there will never come a time when most people they meet and interact with will have any idea about what it is to be brain injured or what a brain injured individual might need. The thing that someone who's had a brain injury has going against them that most blind people will not is the presumption that they are incapable of understanding a very great many things that they can. And one of the most difficult self-advocation skills I used to teach is temper control when the clueless deserve a shovel upside the head for how obnoxious they're being and keeping composure so that you can clearly communicate what you need and what you're capable of.

Almost anyone with almost any disability is saddled with the added responsibility of having to be advocate and teacher as a part of their daily life where the majority do not. But I do not ever see any way that will change. It's the result of relative sizes of given demographics in the population at large. When you're a niche, you're a niche. Rebelling against the larger world because you have that added burden does not do any damage to the larger world. In fact, by and large, they couldn't care less because in most instances they don't have to. But that doesn't mean that those same people are malicious or stupid, just ignorant, and many really would love to help if they are taught how that's appropriately given. And, believe me, the last thing you want is to have them guess, because those guesses will be wrong 99.999% of the time.

--
Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042
[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:] Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next. We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.
~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner



Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Buddy Brannan
 

I dunno about the rest of you, but I sure don’t live in a sighted world. Or a blind world. I live in…wait for it…the world. All of this “sighted world” and “blind world” and what not drives me up a tree. Also, Brian, you do so well, I mean you handle all of this stuff so well, we nearly forget your handicap. (He says, with tongue firmly in cheek)


Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
Email: buddy@brannan.name
Mobile: (814) 431-0962

On Dec 31, 2020, at 12:07 AM, Sarah k Alawami <marrie12@gmail.com> wrote:

We live in a sighted world. You must think in sighted terms, no matter your age. I was taught like this by an older instructor of music. None of us got left behind, and for those of us that did, they dropped quickly leaving the rest of us to pass. I'm not a super tech, but I do read and observe a lot so I don't fall behind.

--

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website.

Check out my adventures with a shadow machine.

to subscribe to the feed click here and you can also follow us on twitter

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on twitch. Feel free to give the channel a follow and see what is up there.

For stream archives, products you can buy and more visit my main lbry page and my tffp lbry page You will also be able to buy some of my products and eBooks there.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 30 Dec 2020, at 18:12, Mary Otten wrote:

Gee, Sarah, I hope you don't teach older blind people and/or beginners. Much too demanding for a beginner to expect that. Let's blind fold the sighted folks and tell them to do just keyboard stuff, no clicks. There isn't a one size fits all, and often people who have mastered a lot think everybody else should do the same to the same extent, or they're not worth messing with. I've seen that with blind supertechies, self-styled, and it is disgusting.



Off tipic, maybe. But I'm just responding to what I dfeel is an absurd approach.



Mary



On 12/30/2020 6:02 PM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:
Oh no. I tell a blind person click this and click that, and if they cannot follow my directions, then it's not my problem. they need to learn how to translate that into what ever that means for them. If they fail to do so, they will be left behind, and I cannot do anything about that.

--

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website.

Check out my adventures with a shadow machine.

to subscribe to the feed click here and you can also follow us on twitter

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on twitch. Feel free to give the channel a follow and see what is up there.

For stream archives, products you can buy and more visit my main lbry page and my tffp lbry page You will also be able to buy some of my products and eBooks there.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 30 Dec 2020, at 16:08, Brian Vogel wrote:

On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 02:32 PM, Arlene wrote:
You’d be a good advocate for blind users who have to fight with isp providers. You know how they say click here or there. They have no clue that you are a blind user. I’ve encountered someone who had no clue that I don’t see.
-
Now, Arlene, I'll probably end up causing you some offense while at the same time praising you and trashing the clueless sighted, too.

I have been a good advocate on many occasions for multiple issues. But, at the same time, there are "click here and click there" instructions that should be simple to follow, while there are others that are impossible to follow. There are plenty of sighted individuals (like I have to say this here), and particularly techs, who have probably never dealt with an individual who is blind let alone with a screen reader. If you ask most of your sighted friends and acquaintances who've never been around someone who's blind when they're using a computer how they think that would work, they generally can't answer. I could not have answered this during my many years in the computer biz, and that was, I would say, for the majority of my many years in the computer biz. The whole concept of something so visually driven in the most common user interface is almost impossible to conceive of via other modalities. Those of us who see "swim in sight" like it's water and we're Esther Williams and, for obvious reasons, that's a taken for granted thing. Just like those of us who can hear do the same for audition. You just don't think about sensory modalities you lack, or how those would be substituted, when you have no real reason to in daily existence.

I honestly think it sometimes just doesn't register with some techs when you identify yourself as blind (which, I will add, is absolutely your responsibility when engaging technical support - they can't read minds) and for many where it does, what they are doing and saying is out of force of habit rather than malice or stupidity. It's probably ignorance more than anything. But sometimes you have to guide them, and teach them something, when they're trying to guide you in a way that can't work. Were someone to say, "Click on the gear icon," responding with, "I can't see that, but do you mean you want me to open settings?," is going to get both sides of the equation something they need. You get clarity (or hopefully you do) and the tech gets clued in, however subtly and possibly temporarily, that there is a way to reference things that is not purely visual. They'll usually keep screwing up out of force of habit during any given session, but if you keep instructing them about what you need, they'll often be willing to rephrase. For certain things, it's worth trying to get the point across that giving reference points, is something worth doing. A response like, "Click on the red button at the upper left is meaningless for me, but is there another button or link very near to it? If I can find that, I can likely find what's next to it." There really are not, and never will be, enough technicians out there versed in screen readers and blindness to provide support for every product that exists, particularly for smaller companies. But many techs really want to help, they just have no idea of exactly how, and you can serve to teach them how to an extent while getting the help you need.

All of the above being said, make no mistake, I know all too well that you will get plenty of clueless and hostile (or at least very passive and unwilling to work with you) techs. But there are lots of folks who will quickly recognize that you are not clueless about what you need, and that they, while they may be clueless about how you get to it, can still find a way to meet you in the middle where you can both get what you want.

I worked for many years in brain injury services, and I used to tell my patients/clients who were brain injured and trying to make their way back into "the world at large" that they would constantly, endlessly, have to be their own best advocates and to educate the clueless. It's not a choice, because that's another population that's such a tiny niche in humanity at large that there will never come a time when most people they meet and interact with will have any idea about what it is to be brain injured or what a brain injured individual might need. The thing that someone who's had a brain injury has going against them that most blind people will not is the presumption that they are incapable of understanding a very great many things that they can. And one of the most difficult self-advocation skills I used to teach is temper control when the clueless deserve a shovel upside the head for how obnoxious they're being and keeping composure so that you can clearly communicate what you need and what you're capable of.

Almost anyone with almost any disability is saddled with the added responsibility of having to be advocate and teacher as a part of their daily life where the majority do not. But I do not ever see any way that will change. It's the result of relative sizes of given demographics in the population at large. When you're a niche, you're a niche. Rebelling against the larger world because you have that added burden does not do any damage to the larger world. In fact, by and large, they couldn't care less because in most instances they don't have to. But that doesn't mean that those same people are malicious or stupid, just ignorant, and many really would love to help if they are taught how that's appropriately given. And, believe me, the last thing you want is to have them guess, because those guesses will be wrong 99.999% of the time.

--
Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042
[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:] Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next. We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.
~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

 

I agree with you dale.

For me you here what others say mostly.

I don't have the answers.

And as for sheltered workshops, yeah I am against those to or at least I was.

As much as our government says there are jobs, if the normals have issues getting em then any disabled person has a harder time of it even if he or she is white which I am.

Point is, they feed you on all sorts of stuff saying you will succeed when in reality being helpless while not nice was probably better than knowing you had no where to go.

Thats what I found out the hard way 20 years back.

A sheltered workshop, yeah, I don't want to be lumped into a disabled warehouse or a home for the stereotipical disabled, but that was 20 years ago.

I'd be happy if I went there now.

The normal world left me behind in 2010 and maybe slightly before that, and as far as I care I don't owe it any favors.

If I didn't have a family, I'd be with the rest in the warehouse.

Who knows by the time they die off I will probably be ready to join them.

I know a lot of people without a job or steady income.

I know a few exceptions but you need to be in the right place and time.

As for touch devices.

Its something I'd like to do, but my spacial awareness just isn't good enough for me to use them even though I tried with an iphone 6 a few times.

I couldn't input my security code even though I tried and the phone locked up so I took it in to get it reset then it got taken away and thats it.

Not sure but maybe I am a generation out at least thats what I tell myself.



On 31/12/2020 6:14 pm, Dale Leavens wrote:
I just want to add how sad I feel that this topic has come up at all and that it has persisted so long and yet here I am adding to it.

Over my 7 decades as a blind man the one consistent observation I continue to experience is that atitude of the blind that blindness related employment should be provided preference to blind candidates rather than the most capable and/or competent persons.  Often these are the same sort who would object to sheltered workshops but really what is the difference?

The Windows environment and mouse access is never a system blind persons would ever have created so as a result if we intend to access the technology it will of necessity be a question of compromise.

Similarly if we as blind persons were to create cities we wouldn’t use coloured lights as signals but if we are to function and participate we will have to adapt.  We probably want seeing persons to orient us to such environments too.  Certainly I do.

I was a long time believing that a touch screen device like the iPhone could ever be accessible and if so even practical however it is now pretty well exclusively my device for interaction with the world but this is the exception.

I recently acquired a large air filter which is touch screen and totally inaccessible.  Similarly our kitchen range is hardly accessible but with markings we are getting by.

More to the point it was a sighted daughter which made access possible.

We have three seeing kids, one girl has made most of her teaching career teaching children with behavioral issues although she is not so afflicted.  Our other daughter is a teacher of the visually impaired and has recently become certified as a orientation and mobility instructor.  I don’t see how her vision should disqualify her for those functions and I would propose her background with blind parents might actually contribute to her suitability.

Now retired, I was a physiotherapist in a variety of settings primarily interested in acquired brain injury.  Not everyone felt I was suitable for the role but once I made my way into advanced courses it was soon understood that blindness gave me some advantages and some disadvantages, just as others in the programmes had strengths and weaknesses.

What is my point?

This topic demonstrates that prejudice is live and well in the blindness community just like in the general population.

I don’t really know what Brian’s role is in the NVDA project but I hope it is his competence we judge him by.

Cheers.


Dale Leavens
Cochrane Ontario Canada
.
Come visit our polar bears!

On Dec 30, 2020, at 11:44 PM, Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:

On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 11:25 PM, Gene wrote:
Gently encouraging it is one thing but I think going beyond that isn't a good idea.
-
And whether we're talking about children, or adults, one generally only gets what one expects or demands.

I am not here, or anywhere, to "gently encourage" as my primary mode of operation.  Most people don't need "gentle encouragement," but those who clearly do get it and have gotten it from me.  Those who expect to be spoon-fed, and they do pop up occasionally, need to be promptly disabused of the notion that this is OK, anywhere.

And it is not unreasonable to demand, not request, but demand, that participants on any venue where archives exist know how to reference them and, if they don't, make acquiring that skill a priority.  Nor is it unreasonable to expect that members in a venue such as this one be a little proactive on their own behalves. If you see the answer to a question that you think you'll need at some point in the future, then please file that somewhere, don't ask the same question the next day or next week.  Or, better yet, if you recall you've seen it then ask about how you can find that question on the archives rather than asking the question again.  You can learn something, and so can many others reading, that is not learned via the regurgitating something just answered.

Learn how to use the magnificent features that this Groups.io platform gives you such as the Mute this Topic link when a topic goes on longer than you'd like and you've lost interest.  Or the Reply to Sender link to take things off-group when that's appropriate.  Or setting up topic-preview if you're overwhelmed by the volume of email from any given Groups.io group you participate on.  (See:  Controlling the Messages You Receive via E-Mail from Groups.io [docx format])  I'm quite sure that there are many tired of this topic and, if they are, they should hit that "Mute this topic" link to keep from getting any more messages from this topic.

Each and every message sent is going out, as of this evening, to 1440 people, and that's an actual imposition on their time.  Everyone should be considering this before each and every post they make.  I did before making this one, but a great deal of the information in it allows them to control their own group e-mail destiny, so it's worth it.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next.  We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

        ~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner 

 


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Lenron
 

I think you have the right idea about it Gene. If you can explain
something how you would do it as a blind person to another why not.
Being able to adapt to situations is a good thing. If I can cut down
on questions you might have I will give a little extra info from the
start, not wait until you ask for every single step.

On 12/30/20, Gene <gsasner@gmail.com> wrote:
that is ideology and, though it oftenmakes sense, it doesn't always. I had

swimming lessons in a sighted class as a child, and though I learned a good

deal, I went much farther in much less time while in a program that matched

one instructor with one blind student.

You haven't defined what thinking in sighted terms means. If I'm writing on

a list like this, I'm not going to say, click on tools, then click options,

then click on whatever tab I may want to move to from the default. for one

thing, a lot of people wouldn't know what I was talking about. for another,

blind people do work from the keyboard in most of what they do. I think
about mouse commands when I need to, when reading instructions written for
sighted people, and when describing how to do something to a sighted person.

But when I'm thinking about how I usually use a computer, I think about the

way I use it, from the keyboard. I'm not going to spend the time and effort

translating keyboard procedures for blind people to read because of an
ideological belief that we have to think in sighted terms. When I open a
menu in a typical program, I don't think to myself, click the menu in the
menu bar. Whether I think about it or do it so automatically that I don't
think about it, I press alt and then do whatever I do to finish opening the

menu. While it is a good thing for people who want to expand their
abilities beyond that, that doesn't mean that we have to describe things the

way sighted people do when talking with other blind people. Living in a
sighted world requires certain skills and knowledge. It doesn't mean that
we have to describe everything as sighted people do when we talk among
ourselves.

if you do things and function in environments where it matters, knowing how

to do so may be important. That isn't the same as refusing to describe
things when talking with blind people as blind people usually do things.
that is a misapplication of ideology.

Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: Sarah k Alawami
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2020 11:07 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice



We live in a sighted world. You must think in sighted terms, no matter your

age. I was taught like this by an older instructor of music. None of us got

left behind, and for those of us that did, they dropped quickly leaving the

rest of us to pass. I'm not a super tech, but I do read and observe a lot so

I don't fall behind.

--

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website.

Check out my adventures with a shadow machine.

to subscribe to the feed click here and you can also follow us on twitter

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on twitch. Feel free to
give the channel a follow and see what is up there.

For stream archives, products you can buy and more visit my main lbry page
and my tffp lbry page You will also be able to buy some of my products and
eBooks there.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 30 Dec 2020, at 18:12, Mary Otten wrote:




Gee, Sarah, I hope you don't teach older blind people and/or beginners. Much

too demanding for a beginner to expect that. Let's blind fold the sighted
folks and tell them to do just keyboard stuff, no clicks. There isn't a one

size fits all, and often people who have mastered a lot think everybody else

should do the same to the same extent, or they're not worth messing with.
I've seen that with blind supertechies, self-styled, and it is disgusting.




Off tipic, maybe. But I'm just responding to what I dfeel is an absurd
approach.




Mary




On 12/30/2020 6:02 PM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:


Oh no. I tell a blind person click this and click that, and if they cannot
follow my directions, then it's not my problem. they need to learn how to
translate that into what ever that means for them. If they fail to do so,
they will be left behind, and I cannot do anything about that.

--

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website.

Check out my adventures with a shadow machine.

to subscribe to the feed click here and you can also follow us on twitter

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on twitch. Feel free to
give the channel a follow and see what is up there.

For stream archives, products you can buy and more visit my main lbry page
and my tffp lbry page You will also be able to buy some of my products and
eBooks there.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 30 Dec 2020, at 16:08, Brian Vogel wrote:


On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 02:32 PM, Arlene wrote:
You’d be a good advocate for blind users who have to fight with isp
providers. You know how they say click here or there. They have no clue
that you are a blind user. I’ve encountered someone who had no clue that I

don’t see.-
Now, Arlene, I'll probably end up causing you some offense while at the same

time praising you and trashing the clueless sighted, too.

I have been a good advocate on many occasions for multiple issues. But, at

the same time, there are "click here and click there" instructions that
should be simple to follow, while there are others that are impossible to
follow. There are plenty of sighted individuals (like I have to say this
here), and particularly techs, who have probably never dealt with an
individual who is blind let alone with a screen reader. If you ask most of

your sighted friends and acquaintances who've never been around someone
who's blind when they're using a computer how they think that would work,
they generally can't answer. I could not have answered this during my many

years in the computer biz, and that was, I would say, for the majority of my

many years in the computer biz. The whole concept of something so visually
driven in the most common user interface is almost impossible to conceive of

via other modalities. Those of us who see "swim in sight" like it's water
and we're Esther Williams and, for obvious reasons, that's a taken for
granted thing. Just like those of us who can hear do the same for audition.

You just don't think about sensory modalities you lack, or how those would
be substituted, when you have no real reason to in daily existence.

I honestly think it sometimes just doesn't register with some techs when you

identify yourself as blind (which, I will add, is absolutely your
responsibility when engaging technical support - they can't read minds) and

for many where it does, what they are doing and saying is out of force of
habit rather than malice or stupidity. It's probably ignorance more than
anything. But sometimes you have to guide them, and teach them something,
when they're trying to guide you in a way that can't work. Were someone to

say, "Click on the gear icon," responding with, "I can't see that, but do
you mean you want me to open settings?," is going to get both sides of the
equation something they need. You get clarity (or hopefully you do) and the

tech gets clued in, however subtly and possibly temporarily, that there is a

way to reference things that is not purely visual. They'll usually keep
screwing up out of force of habit during any given session, but if you keep

instructing them about what you need, they'll often be willing to rephrase.

For certain things, it's worth trying to get the point across that giving
reference points, is something worth doing. A response like, "Click on the

red button at the upper left is meaningless for me, but is there another
button or link very near to it? If I can find that, I can likely find
what's next to it." There really are not, and never will be, enough
technicians out there versed in screen readers and blindness to provide
support for every product that exists, particularly for smaller companies.
But many techs really want to help, they just have no idea of exactly how,
and you can serve to teach them how to an extent while getting the help you

need.

All of the above being said, make no mistake, I know all too well that you
will get plenty of clueless and hostile (or at least very passive and
unwilling to work with you) techs. But there are lots of folks who will
quickly recognize that you are not clueless about what you need, and that
they, while they may be clueless about how you get to it, can still find a
way to meet you in the middle where you can both get what you want.

I worked for many years in brain injury services, and I used to tell my
patients/clients who were brain injured and trying to make their way back
into "the world at large" that they would constantly, endlessly, have to be

their own best advocates and to educate the clueless. It's not a choice,
because that's another population that's such a tiny niche in humanity at
large that there will never come a time when most people they meet and
interact with will have any idea about what it is to be brain injured or
what a brain injured individual might need. The thing that someone who's
had a brain injury has going against them that most blind people will not is

the presumption that they are incapable of understanding a very great many
things that they can. And one of the most difficult self-advocation skills

I used to teach is temper control when the clueless deserve a shovel upside

the head for how obnoxious they're being and keeping composure so that you
can clearly communicate what you need and what you're capable of.

Almost anyone with almost any disability is saddled with the added
responsibility of having to be advocate and teacher as a part of their daily

life where the majority do not. But I do not ever see any way that will
change. It's the result of relative sizes of given demographics in the
population at large. When you're a niche, you're a niche. Rebelling
against the larger world because you have that added burden does not do any

damage to the larger world. In fact, by and large, they couldn't care less

because in most instances they don't have to. But that doesn't mean that
those same people are malicious or stupid, just ignorant, and many really
would love to help if they are taught how that's appropriately given. And,

believe me, the last thing you want is to have them guess, because those
guesses will be wrong 99.999% of the time.

--


Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to
overturn the votes certified by 4 states:] Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling,

but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next.

We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan
and John Boehner

















--
Lenron Brown
Cell: 985-271-2832
Skype: ron.brown762


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Gene
 

that is ideology and, though it oftenmakes sense, it doesn't always. I had swimming lessons in a sighted class as a child, and though I learned a good deal, I went much farther in much less time while in a program that matched one instructor with one blind student.

You haven't defined what thinking in sighted terms means. If I'm writing on a list like this, I'm not going to say, click on tools, then click options, then click on whatever tab I may want to move to from the default. for one thing, a lot of people wouldn't know what I was talking about. for another, blind people do work from the keyboard in most of what they do. I think about mouse commands when I need to, when reading instructions written for sighted people, and when describing how to do something to a sighted person. But when I'm thinking about how I usually use a computer, I think about the way I use it, from the keyboard. I'm not going to spend the time and effort translating keyboard procedures for blind people to read because of an ideological belief that we have to think in sighted terms. When I open a menu in a typical program, I don't think to myself, click the menu in the menu bar. Whether I think about it or do it so automatically that I don't think about it, I press alt and then do whatever I do to finish opening the menu. While it is a good thing for people who want to expand their abilities beyond that, that doesn't mean that we have to describe things the way sighted people do when talking with other blind people. Living in a sighted world requires certain skills and knowledge. It doesn't mean that we have to describe everything as sighted people do when we talk among ourselves.

if you do things and function in environments where it matters, knowing how to do so may be important. That isn't the same as refusing to describe things when talking with blind people as blind people usually do things. that is a misapplication of ideology.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Sarah k Alawami
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2020 11:07 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice



We live in a sighted world. You must think in sighted terms, no matter your age. I was taught like this by an older instructor of music. None of us got left behind, and for those of us that did, they dropped quickly leaving the rest of us to pass. I'm not a super tech, but I do read and observe a lot so I don't fall behind.

--

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website.

Check out my adventures with a shadow machine.

to subscribe to the feed click here and you can also follow us on twitter

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on twitch. Feel free to give the channel a follow and see what is up there.

For stream archives, products you can buy and more visit my main lbry page and my tffp lbry page You will also be able to buy some of my products and eBooks there.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 30 Dec 2020, at 18:12, Mary Otten wrote:




Gee, Sarah, I hope you don't teach older blind people and/or beginners. Much too demanding for a beginner to expect that. Let's blind fold the sighted folks and tell them to do just keyboard stuff, no clicks. There isn't a one size fits all, and often people who have mastered a lot think everybody else should do the same to the same extent, or they're not worth messing with. I've seen that with blind supertechies, self-styled, and it is disgusting.




Off tipic, maybe. But I'm just responding to what I dfeel is an absurd approach.




Mary




On 12/30/2020 6:02 PM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:


Oh no. I tell a blind person click this and click that, and if they cannot follow my directions, then it's not my problem. they need to learn how to translate that into what ever that means for them. If they fail to do so, they will be left behind, and I cannot do anything about that.

--

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website.

Check out my adventures with a shadow machine.

to subscribe to the feed click here and you can also follow us on twitter

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on twitch. Feel free to give the channel a follow and see what is up there.

For stream archives, products you can buy and more visit my main lbry page and my tffp lbry page You will also be able to buy some of my products and eBooks there.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 30 Dec 2020, at 16:08, Brian Vogel wrote:


On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 02:32 PM, Arlene wrote:
You’d be a good advocate for blind users who have to fight with isp providers. You know how they say click here or there. They have no clue that you are a blind user. I’ve encountered someone who had no clue that I don’t see.-
Now, Arlene, I'll probably end up causing you some offense while at the same time praising you and trashing the clueless sighted, too.

I have been a good advocate on many occasions for multiple issues. But, at the same time, there are "click here and click there" instructions that should be simple to follow, while there are others that are impossible to follow. There are plenty of sighted individuals (like I have to say this here), and particularly techs, who have probably never dealt with an individual who is blind let alone with a screen reader. If you ask most of your sighted friends and acquaintances who've never been around someone who's blind when they're using a computer how they think that would work, they generally can't answer. I could not have answered this during my many years in the computer biz, and that was, I would say, for the majority of my many years in the computer biz. The whole concept of something so visually driven in the most common user interface is almost impossible to conceive of via other modalities. Those of us who see "swim in sight" like it's water and we're Esther Williams and, for obvious reasons, that's a taken for granted thing. Just like those of us who can hear do the same for audition. You just don't think about sensory modalities you lack, or how those would be substituted, when you have no real reason to in daily existence.

I honestly think it sometimes just doesn't register with some techs when you identify yourself as blind (which, I will add, is absolutely your responsibility when engaging technical support - they can't read minds) and for many where it does, what they are doing and saying is out of force of habit rather than malice or stupidity. It's probably ignorance more than anything. But sometimes you have to guide them, and teach them something, when they're trying to guide you in a way that can't work. Were someone to say, "Click on the gear icon," responding with, "I can't see that, but do you mean you want me to open settings?," is going to get both sides of the equation something they need. You get clarity (or hopefully you do) and the tech gets clued in, however subtly and possibly temporarily, that there is a way to reference things that is not purely visual. They'll usually keep screwing up out of force of habit during any given session, but if you keep instructing them about what you need, they'll often be willing to rephrase. For certain things, it's worth trying to get the point across that giving reference points, is something worth doing. A response like, "Click on the red button at the upper left is meaningless for me, but is there another button or link very near to it? If I can find that, I can likely find what's next to it." There really are not, and never will be, enough technicians out there versed in screen readers and blindness to provide support for every product that exists, particularly for smaller companies. But many techs really want to help, they just have no idea of exactly how, and you can serve to teach them how to an extent while getting the help you need.

All of the above being said, make no mistake, I know all too well that you will get plenty of clueless and hostile (or at least very passive and unwilling to work with you) techs. But there are lots of folks who will quickly recognize that you are not clueless about what you need, and that they, while they may be clueless about how you get to it, can still find a way to meet you in the middle where you can both get what you want.

I worked for many years in brain injury services, and I used to tell my patients/clients who were brain injured and trying to make their way back into "the world at large" that they would constantly, endlessly, have to be their own best advocates and to educate the clueless. It's not a choice, because that's another population that's such a tiny niche in humanity at large that there will never come a time when most people they meet and interact with will have any idea about what it is to be brain injured or what a brain injured individual might need. The thing that someone who's had a brain injury has going against them that most blind people will not is the presumption that they are incapable of understanding a very great many things that they can. And one of the most difficult self-advocation skills I used to teach is temper control when the clueless deserve a shovel upside the head for how obnoxious they're being and keeping composure so that you can clearly communicate what you need and what you're capable of.

Almost anyone with almost any disability is saddled with the added responsibility of having to be advocate and teacher as a part of their daily life where the majority do not. But I do not ever see any way that will change. It's the result of relative sizes of given demographics in the population at large. When you're a niche, you're a niche. Rebelling against the larger world because you have that added burden does not do any damage to the larger world. In fact, by and large, they couldn't care less because in most instances they don't have to. But that doesn't mean that those same people are malicious or stupid, just ignorant, and many really would love to help if they are taught how that's appropriately given. And, believe me, the last thing you want is to have them guess, because those guesses will be wrong 99.999% of the time.

--


Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:] Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next. We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Dale Leavens
 

I just want to add how sad I feel that this topic has come up at all and that it has persisted so long and yet here I am adding to it.

Over my 7 decades as a blind man the one consistent observation I continue to experience is that atitude of the blind that blindness related employment should be provided preference to blind candidates rather than the most capable and/or competent persons.  Often these are the same sort who would object to sheltered workshops but really what is the difference?

The Windows environment and mouse access is never a system blind persons would ever have created so as a result if we intend to access the technology it will of necessity be a question of compromise.

Similarly if we as blind persons were to create cities we wouldn’t use coloured lights as signals but if we are to function and participate we will have to adapt.  We probably want seeing persons to orient us to such environments too.  Certainly I do.

I was a long time believing that a touch screen device like the iPhone could ever be accessible and if so even practical however it is now pretty well exclusively my device for interaction with the world but this is the exception.

I recently acquired a large air filter which is touch screen and totally inaccessible.  Similarly our kitchen range is hardly accessible but with markings we are getting by.

More to the point it was a sighted daughter which made access possible.

We have three seeing kids, one girl has made most of her teaching career teaching children with behavioral issues although she is not so afflicted.  Our other daughter is a teacher of the visually impaired and has recently become certified as a orientation and mobility instructor.  I don’t see how her vision should disqualify her for those functions and I would propose her background with blind parents might actually contribute to her suitability.

Now retired, I was a physiotherapist in a variety of settings primarily interested in acquired brain injury.  Not everyone felt I was suitable for the role but once I made my way into advanced courses it was soon understood that blindness gave me some advantages and some disadvantages, just as others in the programmes had strengths and weaknesses.

What is my point?

This topic demonstrates that prejudice is live and well in the blindness community just like in the general population.

I don’t really know what Brian’s role is in the NVDA project but I hope it is his competence we judge him by.

Cheers.


Dale Leavens
Cochrane Ontario Canada
.
Come visit our polar bears!

On Dec 30, 2020, at 11:44 PM, Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:

On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 11:25 PM, Gene wrote:
Gently encouraging it is one thing but I think going beyond that isn't a good idea.
-
And whether we're talking about children, or adults, one generally only gets what one expects or demands.

I am not here, or anywhere, to "gently encourage" as my primary mode of operation.  Most people don't need "gentle encouragement," but those who clearly do get it and have gotten it from me.  Those who expect to be spoon-fed, and they do pop up occasionally, need to be promptly disabused of the notion that this is OK, anywhere.

And it is not unreasonable to demand, not request, but demand, that participants on any venue where archives exist know how to reference them and, if they don't, make acquiring that skill a priority.  Nor is it unreasonable to expect that members in a venue such as this one be a little proactive on their own behalves. If you see the answer to a question that you think you'll need at some point in the future, then please file that somewhere, don't ask the same question the next day or next week.  Or, better yet, if you recall you've seen it then ask about how you can find that question on the archives rather than asking the question again.  You can learn something, and so can many others reading, that is not learned via the regurgitating something just answered.

Learn how to use the magnificent features that this Groups.io platform gives you such as the Mute this Topic link when a topic goes on longer than you'd like and you've lost interest.  Or the Reply to Sender link to take things off-group when that's appropriate.  Or setting up topic-preview if you're overwhelmed by the volume of email from any given Groups.io group you participate on.  (See:  Controlling the Messages You Receive via E-Mail from Groups.io [docx format])  I'm quite sure that there are many tired of this topic and, if they are, they should hit that "Mute this topic" link to keep from getting any more messages from this topic.

Each and every message sent is going out, as of this evening, to 1440 people, and that's an actual imposition on their time.  Everyone should be considering this before each and every post they make.  I did before making this one, but a great deal of the information in it allows them to control their own group e-mail destiny, so it's worth it.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next.  We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

        ~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner 

 

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