Date   

Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Rosemarie Chavarria
 

I agree. If I was a beginning computer user, I wouldn't want Sarah as my instructor. If she's gonna tell people to click on something, she might as well say "point and click". I say that because I actually had a teacher yell at me because I couldn't use the mouse to click on something. I too hope Sarah doesn't teach older computer users or beginners to the computer.

On 12/30/2020 6:12 PM, Mary Otten wrote:
Gee, Sarah, I hope you don't teach older blind people and/or beginners. Much too demanding for a beginner to expect that. Let's blind fold the sighted folks and tell them to do just keyboard stuff, no clicks. There isn't a one size fits all, and often people who have mastered a lot think everybody else should do the same to the same extent, or they're not worth messing with. I've seen that with blind supertechies, self-styled, and it is disgusting.


Off tipic, maybe. But I'm just  responding to what I dfeel is an absurd approach.


Mary


On 12/30/2020 6:02 PM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:

Oh no. I tell a blind person click this and click that, and if they cannot follow my directions, then it's not my problem. they need to learn how to translate that into what ever that means for them. If they fail to do so, they will be left behind, and I cannot do anything about that.

--

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website. <http://www.tffppodcast.com>

Check out my adventures with a shadow machine. <http://tffppodcast.com/shadow>

to subscribe to the feed click here <http://feeds.feedburner.com/tffp> and you can also follow us on twitter <http://twitter.com/tffppodcast>

Our discord <http://discord.tffppodcast.com> is where you will know when we go live on twitch. <http://twitch.tv/ke7zum> Feel free to give the channel a follow and see what is up there.

For stream archives, products you can buy and more visit my main lbry page <http://lbry.tv/@ke7zum> and my tffp lbry page <http://lbry.tv/@tffp> You will also be able to buy some of my products and eBooks there.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here <Http://patreon.com/tffppodcast>

On 30 Dec 2020, at 16:08, Brian Vogel wrote:

    On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 02:32 PM, Arlene wrote:

        You’d be a good advocate for blind users who have to fight
        with isp providers.  You know how they say click here or
        there. They have no clue that you are a blind user. I’ve
        encountered someone who had no clue that I don’t see.

    -
    Now, Arlene, I'll probably end up causing you some offense while
    at the same time praising you and trashing the clueless sighted, too.

    I have been a good advocate on many occasions for multiple
    issues.  But, at the same time, there are "click here and click
    there" instructions that should be simple to follow, while there
    are others that are impossible to follow.  There are plenty of
    sighted individuals (like I have to say this here), and
    particularly techs, who have probably never dealt with an
    individual who is blind let alone with a screen reader.  If you
    ask most of your sighted friends and acquaintances who've never
    been around someone who's blind when they're using a computer how
    they think that would work, they generally can't answer.  I could
    not have answered this during my many years in the computer biz,
    and that was, I would say, for the majority of my many years in
    the computer biz. The whole concept of something so visually
    driven in the most common user interface is almost impossible to
    conceive of via other modalities.  Those of us who see "swim in
    sight" like it's water and we're Esther Williams and, for obvious
    reasons, that's a taken for granted thing.  Just like those of us
    who can hear do the same for audition.  You just don't think about
    sensory modalities you lack, or how those would be substituted,
    when you have no real reason to in daily existence.

    I honestly think it sometimes just doesn't register with some
    techs when you identify yourself as blind (which, I will add, is
    absolutely your responsibility when engaging technical support -
    they can't read minds) and for many where it does, what they are
    doing and saying is out of force of habit rather than malice or
    stupidity.  It's probably ignorance more than anything.  But
    sometimes you have to guide them, and teach them something, when
    they're trying to guide you in a way that can't work.  Were
    someone to say, "Click on the gear icon," responding with, "I
    can't see that, but do you mean you want me to open settings?," is
    going to get both sides of the equation something they need.  You
    get clarity (or hopefully you do) and the tech gets clued in,
    however subtly and possibly temporarily, that there is a way to
    reference things that is not purely visual.  They'll usually keep
    screwing up out of force of habit during any given session, but if
    you keep instructing them about what you need, they'll often be
    willing to rephrase.  For certain things, it's worth trying to get
    the point across that giving reference points, is something worth
    doing.  A response like, "Click on the red button at the upper
    left is meaningless for me, but is there another button or link
    very near to it?  If I can find that, I can likely find what's
    next to it."   There really are not, and never will be, enough
    technicians out there versed in screen readers and blindness to
    provide support for every product that exists, particularly for
    smaller companies.  But many techs really want to help, they just
    have no idea of exactly how, and you can serve to teach them how
    to an extent while getting the help you need.

    All of the above being said, make no mistake, I know all too well
    that you will get plenty of clueless and hostile (or at least very
    passive and unwilling to work with you) techs. But there are lots
    of folks who will quickly recognize that you are not clueless
    about what you need, and that they, while they may be clueless
    about how you get to it, can still find a way to meet you in the
    middle where you can both get what you want.

    I worked for many years in brain injury services, and I used to
    tell my patients/clients who were brain injured and trying to make
    their way back into "the world at large" that they would
    constantly, endlessly, have to be their own best advocates and to
    educate the clueless.  It's not a choice, because that's another
    population that's such a tiny niche in humanity at large that
    there will never come a time when most people they meet and
    interact with will have any idea about what it is to be brain
    injured or what a brain injured individual might need.  The thing
    that someone who's had a brain injury has going against them that
    most blind people will not is the presumption that they are
    incapable of understanding a very great many things that they
    can.  And one of the most difficult self-advocation skills I used
    to teach is temper control when the clueless deserve a shovel
    upside the head for how obnoxious they're being and keeping
    composure so that you can clearly communicate what you need and
    what you're capable of.

    Almost anyone with almost any disability is saddled with the added
    responsibility of having to be advocate and teacher as a part of
    their daily life where the majority do not.  But I do not ever see
    any way that will change.  It's the result of relative sizes of
    given demographics in the population at large.  When you're a
    niche, you're a niche.  Rebelling against the larger world because
    you have that added burden does not do any damage to the larger
    world.  In fact, by and large, they couldn't care less because in
    most instances they don't have to.  But that doesn't mean that
    those same people are malicious or stupid, just ignorant, and many
    really would love to help if they are taught how that's
    appropriately given.  And, believe me, the last thing you want is
    to have them guess, because those guesses will be wrong 99.999% of
    the time.

    --
    Brian -Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042

    [Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by
    Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:] /Pleased with
    the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of
    where this crazy train goes next.  We should know by now there’s a
    bottomless supply of crazy./

            ~ Brendan Buck, /former adviser to Speakers of the House
    Paul Ryan and John Boehner/





Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Chris Smart
 

Sarah reports and un-follows people who include too many emoji's in their Twitter handles or tweets.

So yeah, that's what you're dealing with there. LOL



On 2020-12-30 9:12 p.m., Mary Otten wrote:

Gee, Sarah, I hope you don't teach older blind people and/or beginners. Much too demanding for a beginner to expect that. Let's blind fold the sighted folks and tell them to do just keyboard stuff, no clicks. There isn't a one size fits all, and often people who have mastered a lot think everybody else should do the same to the same extent, or they're not worth messing with. I've seen that with blind supertechies, self-styled, and it is disgusting.


Off tipic, maybe. But I'm just  responding to what I dfeel is an absurd approach.


Mary


On 12/30/2020 6:02 PM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:

Oh no. I tell a blind person click this and click that, and if they cannot follow my directions, then it's not my problem. they need to learn how to translate that into what ever that means for them. If they fail to do so, they will be left behind, and I cannot do anything about that.

--

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website.

Check out my adventures with a shadow machine.

to subscribe to the feed click here and you can also follow us on twitter

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on twitch. Feel free to give the channel a follow and see what is up there.

For stream archives, products you can buy and more visit my main lbry page and my tffp lbry page You will also be able to buy some of my products and eBooks there.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 30 Dec 2020, at 16:08, Brian Vogel wrote:

On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 02:32 PM, Arlene wrote:
You’d be a good advocate for blind users who have to fight with isp providers.  You know how they say click here or there. They have no clue that you are a blind user.  I’ve encountered someone who had no clue that I don’t see.
-
Now, Arlene, I'll probably end up causing you some offense while at the same time praising you and trashing the clueless sighted, too.

I have been a good advocate on many occasions for multiple issues.  But, at the same time, there are "click here and click there" instructions that should be simple to follow, while there are others that are impossible to follow.  There are plenty of sighted individuals (like I have to say this here), and particularly techs, who have probably never dealt with an individual who is blind let alone with a screen reader.  If you ask most of your sighted friends and acquaintances who've never been around someone who's blind when they're using a computer how they think that would work, they generally can't answer.  I could not have answered this during my many years in the computer biz, and that was, I would say, for the majority of my many years in the computer biz. The whole concept of something so visually driven in the most common user interface is almost impossible to conceive of via other modalities.  Those of us who see "swim in sight" like it's water and we're Esther Williams and, for obvious reasons, that's a taken for granted thing.  Just like those of us who can hear do the same for audition.  You just don't think about sensory modalities you lack, or how those would be substituted, when you have no real reason to in daily existence.

I honestly think it sometimes just doesn't register with some techs when you identify yourself as blind (which, I will add, is absolutely your responsibility when engaging technical support - they can't read minds) and for many where it does, what they are doing and saying is out of force of habit rather than malice or stupidity.  It's probably ignorance more than anything.  But sometimes you have to guide them, and teach them something, when they're trying to guide you in a way that can't work.  Were someone to say, "Click on the gear icon," responding with, "I can't see that, but do you mean you want me to open settings?," is going to get both sides of the equation something they need.  You get clarity (or hopefully you do) and the tech gets clued in, however subtly and possibly temporarily, that there is a way to reference things that is not purely visual.  They'll usually keep screwing up out of force of habit during any given session, but if you keep instructing them about what you need, they'll often be willing to rephrase.  For certain things, it's worth trying to get the point across that giving reference points, is something worth doing.  A response like, "Click on the red button at the upper left is meaningless for me, but is there another button or link very near to it?  If I can find that, I can likely find what's next to it."   There really are not, and never will be, enough technicians out there versed in screen readers and blindness to provide support for every product that exists, particularly for smaller companies.  But many techs really want to help, they just have no idea of exactly how, and you can serve to teach them how to an extent while getting the help you need.

All of the above being said, make no mistake, I know all too well that you will get plenty of clueless and hostile (or at least very passive and unwilling to work with you) techs.  But there are lots of folks who will quickly recognize that you are not clueless about what you need, and that they, while they may be clueless about how you get to it, can still find a way to meet you in the middle where you can both get what you want.

I worked for many years in brain injury services, and I used to tell my patients/clients who were brain injured and trying to make their way back into "the world at large" that they would constantly, endlessly, have to be their own best advocates and to educate the clueless.  It's not a choice, because that's another population that's such a tiny niche in humanity at large that there will never come a time when most people they meet and interact with will have any idea about what it is to be brain injured or what a brain injured individual might need.  The thing that someone who's had a brain injury has going against them that most blind people will not is the presumption that they are incapable of understanding a very great many things that they can.  And one of the most difficult self-advocation skills I used to teach is temper control when the clueless deserve a shovel upside the head for how obnoxious they're being and keeping composure so that you can clearly communicate what you need and what you're capable of.

Almost anyone with almost any disability is saddled with the added responsibility of having to be advocate and teacher as a part of their daily life where the majority do not.  But I do not ever see any way that will change.  It's the result of relative sizes of given demographics in the population at large.  When you're a niche, you're a niche.  Rebelling against the larger world because you have that added burden does not do any damage to the larger world.  In fact, by and large, they couldn't care less because in most instances they don't have to.  But that doesn't mean that those same people are malicious or stupid, just ignorant, and many really would love to help if they are taught how that's appropriately given.  And, believe me, the last thing you want is to have them guess, because those guesses will be wrong 99.999% of the time.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next.  We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

        ~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner 

 


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Mary Otten
 

Gee, Sarah, I hope you don't teach older blind people and/or beginners. Much too demanding for a beginner to expect that. Let's blind fold the sighted folks and tell them to do just keyboard stuff, no clicks. There isn't a one size fits all, and often people who have mastered a lot think everybody else should do the same to the same extent, or they're not worth messing with. I've seen that with blind supertechies, self-styled, and it is disgusting.


Off tipic, maybe. But I'm just  responding to what I dfeel is an absurd approach.


Mary


On 12/30/2020 6:02 PM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:

Oh no. I tell a blind person click this and click that, and if they cannot follow my directions, then it's not my problem. they need to learn how to translate that into what ever that means for them. If they fail to do so, they will be left behind, and I cannot do anything about that.

--

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website.

Check out my adventures with a shadow machine.

to subscribe to the feed click here and you can also follow us on twitter

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on twitch. Feel free to give the channel a follow and see what is up there.

For stream archives, products you can buy and more visit my main lbry page and my tffp lbry page You will also be able to buy some of my products and eBooks there.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 30 Dec 2020, at 16:08, Brian Vogel wrote:

On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 02:32 PM, Arlene wrote:
You’d be a good advocate for blind users who have to fight with isp providers.  You know how they say click here or there. They have no clue that you are a blind user.  I’ve encountered someone who had no clue that I don’t see.
-
Now, Arlene, I'll probably end up causing you some offense while at the same time praising you and trashing the clueless sighted, too.

I have been a good advocate on many occasions for multiple issues.  But, at the same time, there are "click here and click there" instructions that should be simple to follow, while there are others that are impossible to follow.  There are plenty of sighted individuals (like I have to say this here), and particularly techs, who have probably never dealt with an individual who is blind let alone with a screen reader.  If you ask most of your sighted friends and acquaintances who've never been around someone who's blind when they're using a computer how they think that would work, they generally can't answer.  I could not have answered this during my many years in the computer biz, and that was, I would say, for the majority of my many years in the computer biz. The whole concept of something so visually driven in the most common user interface is almost impossible to conceive of via other modalities.  Those of us who see "swim in sight" like it's water and we're Esther Williams and, for obvious reasons, that's a taken for granted thing.  Just like those of us who can hear do the same for audition.  You just don't think about sensory modalities you lack, or how those would be substituted, when you have no real reason to in daily existence.

I honestly think it sometimes just doesn't register with some techs when you identify yourself as blind (which, I will add, is absolutely your responsibility when engaging technical support - they can't read minds) and for many where it does, what they are doing and saying is out of force of habit rather than malice or stupidity.  It's probably ignorance more than anything.  But sometimes you have to guide them, and teach them something, when they're trying to guide you in a way that can't work.  Were someone to say, "Click on the gear icon," responding with, "I can't see that, but do you mean you want me to open settings?," is going to get both sides of the equation something they need.  You get clarity (or hopefully you do) and the tech gets clued in, however subtly and possibly temporarily, that there is a way to reference things that is not purely visual.  They'll usually keep screwing up out of force of habit during any given session, but if you keep instructing them about what you need, they'll often be willing to rephrase.  For certain things, it's worth trying to get the point across that giving reference points, is something worth doing.  A response like, "Click on the red button at the upper left is meaningless for me, but is there another button or link very near to it?  If I can find that, I can likely find what's next to it."   There really are not, and never will be, enough technicians out there versed in screen readers and blindness to provide support for every product that exists, particularly for smaller companies.  But many techs really want to help, they just have no idea of exactly how, and you can serve to teach them how to an extent while getting the help you need.

All of the above being said, make no mistake, I know all too well that you will get plenty of clueless and hostile (or at least very passive and unwilling to work with you) techs.  But there are lots of folks who will quickly recognize that you are not clueless about what you need, and that they, while they may be clueless about how you get to it, can still find a way to meet you in the middle where you can both get what you want.

I worked for many years in brain injury services, and I used to tell my patients/clients who were brain injured and trying to make their way back into "the world at large" that they would constantly, endlessly, have to be their own best advocates and to educate the clueless.  It's not a choice, because that's another population that's such a tiny niche in humanity at large that there will never come a time when most people they meet and interact with will have any idea about what it is to be brain injured or what a brain injured individual might need.  The thing that someone who's had a brain injury has going against them that most blind people will not is the presumption that they are incapable of understanding a very great many things that they can.  And one of the most difficult self-advocation skills I used to teach is temper control when the clueless deserve a shovel upside the head for how obnoxious they're being and keeping composure so that you can clearly communicate what you need and what you're capable of.

Almost anyone with almost any disability is saddled with the added responsibility of having to be advocate and teacher as a part of their daily life where the majority do not.  But I do not ever see any way that will change.  It's the result of relative sizes of given demographics in the population at large.  When you're a niche, you're a niche.  Rebelling against the larger world because you have that added burden does not do any damage to the larger world.  In fact, by and large, they couldn't care less because in most instances they don't have to.  But that doesn't mean that those same people are malicious or stupid, just ignorant, and many really would love to help if they are taught how that's appropriately given.  And, believe me, the last thing you want is to have them guess, because those guesses will be wrong 99.999% of the time.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next.  We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

        ~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner 

 


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Sarah k Alawami
 

Oh no. I tell a blind person click this and click that, and if they cannot follow my directions, then it's not my problem. they need to learn how to translate that into what ever that means for them. If they fail to do so, they will be left behind, and I cannot do anything about that.

--

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website.

Check out my adventures with a shadow machine.

to subscribe to the feed click here and you can also follow us on twitter

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on twitch. Feel free to give the channel a follow and see what is up there.

For stream archives, products you can buy and more visit my main lbry page and my tffp lbry page You will also be able to buy some of my products and eBooks there.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 30 Dec 2020, at 16:08, Brian Vogel wrote:

On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 02:32 PM, Arlene wrote:
You’d be a good advocate for blind users who have to fight with isp providers.  You know how they say click here or there. They have no clue that you are a blind user.  I’ve encountered someone who had no clue that I don’t see.
-
Now, Arlene, I'll probably end up causing you some offense while at the same time praising you and trashing the clueless sighted, too.

I have been a good advocate on many occasions for multiple issues.  But, at the same time, there are "click here and click there" instructions that should be simple to follow, while there are others that are impossible to follow.  There are plenty of sighted individuals (like I have to say this here), and particularly techs, who have probably never dealt with an individual who is blind let alone with a screen reader.  If you ask most of your sighted friends and acquaintances who've never been around someone who's blind when they're using a computer how they think that would work, they generally can't answer.  I could not have answered this during my many years in the computer biz, and that was, I would say, for the majority of my many years in the computer biz. The whole concept of something so visually driven in the most common user interface is almost impossible to conceive of via other modalities.  Those of us who see "swim in sight" like it's water and we're Esther Williams and, for obvious reasons, that's a taken for granted thing.  Just like those of us who can hear do the same for audition.  You just don't think about sensory modalities you lack, or how those would be substituted, when you have no real reason to in daily existence.

I honestly think it sometimes just doesn't register with some techs when you identify yourself as blind (which, I will add, is absolutely your responsibility when engaging technical support - they can't read minds) and for many where it does, what they are doing and saying is out of force of habit rather than malice or stupidity.  It's probably ignorance more than anything.  But sometimes you have to guide them, and teach them something, when they're trying to guide you in a way that can't work.  Were someone to say, "Click on the gear icon," responding with, "I can't see that, but do you mean you want me to open settings?," is going to get both sides of the equation something they need.  You get clarity (or hopefully you do) and the tech gets clued in, however subtly and possibly temporarily, that there is a way to reference things that is not purely visual.  They'll usually keep screwing up out of force of habit during any given session, but if you keep instructing them about what you need, they'll often be willing to rephrase.  For certain things, it's worth trying to get the point across that giving reference points, is something worth doing.  A response like, "Click on the red button at the upper left is meaningless for me, but is there another button or link very near to it?  If I can find that, I can likely find what's next to it."   There really are not, and never will be, enough technicians out there versed in screen readers and blindness to provide support for every product that exists, particularly for smaller companies.  But many techs really want to help, they just have no idea of exactly how, and you can serve to teach them how to an extent while getting the help you need.

All of the above being said, make no mistake, I know all too well that you will get plenty of clueless and hostile (or at least very passive and unwilling to work with you) techs.  But there are lots of folks who will quickly recognize that you are not clueless about what you need, and that they, while they may be clueless about how you get to it, can still find a way to meet you in the middle where you can both get what you want.

I worked for many years in brain injury services, and I used to tell my patients/clients who were brain injured and trying to make their way back into "the world at large" that they would constantly, endlessly, have to be their own best advocates and to educate the clueless.  It's not a choice, because that's another population that's such a tiny niche in humanity at large that there will never come a time when most people they meet and interact with will have any idea about what it is to be brain injured or what a brain injured individual might need.  The thing that someone who's had a brain injury has going against them that most blind people will not is the presumption that they are incapable of understanding a very great many things that they can.  And one of the most difficult self-advocation skills I used to teach is temper control when the clueless deserve a shovel upside the head for how obnoxious they're being and keeping composure so that you can clearly communicate what you need and what you're capable of.

Almost anyone with almost any disability is saddled with the added responsibility of having to be advocate and teacher as a part of their daily life where the majority do not.  But I do not ever see any way that will change.  It's the result of relative sizes of given demographics in the population at large.  When you're a niche, you're a niche.  Rebelling against the larger world because you have that added burden does not do any damage to the larger world.  In fact, by and large, they couldn't care less because in most instances they don't have to.  But that doesn't mean that those same people are malicious or stupid, just ignorant, and many really would love to help if they are taught how that's appropriately given.  And, believe me, the last thing you want is to have them guess, because those guesses will be wrong 99.999% of the time.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next.  We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

        ~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner 

 


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

 

On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 08:35 PM, Shaun Everiss wrote:
simply only know the mouse and not the board.
-
And, why should they?  Each and every one of us here knows what we need to know to do what we need or want to do in a way that's most convenient for ourselves in our daily lives.

I would wager to bet, and have actually observed, many totally blind and always totally blind individuals who have absolutely no idea of how a mouse works, even if they know what it is for in the abstract.

There's nothing wrong with either group.  They use the tools that work for them.  It's not incumbent on either to be incredibly well versed in the actual workings of the methods of the others.  And note well I said actual workings.  That's completely different and separate from being able to do translation in instruction sets from one to the other.

No one is obligated to know how you (the generic you) do anything when that differs significantly from how they do it.  That's irrelevant to both sides of the equation, in the vast majority of cases, and expecting that either side will routinely be well versed in the actual methods of the other is unrealistic.  It's the odd bird that is even close to equally proficient with both sides (or all sides, as there are often more than two, sometimes many more).
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next.  We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

        ~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner 

 


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

 

Agreed,

Sadly sometimes the sighted can be more blind than the blind and not know where to go or simply only know the mouse and not the board.


On 31/12/2020 9:12 am, Mike Capelle wrote:

We all live in a sighted world.


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Gene
 

That's a good description. of course, such information wouldn't be given in tutorials or other training material but its very interesting.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2020 7:01 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Gene,

It's hard to describe something visual to someone who cannot see (and has never seen), but I'll do my darndest. Menus are, for lack of a better way of explaining it, framed. There is usually no change in background color, but because they completely overlay what was formerly visible beneath them, and there are lines not only at the edges of the menu, but within a menu that separate groups (much like there are function groups in the ribbon interface, which sprung from that convention).

It's the rough visual equivalent of a raised embossed line on a sheet of heavy paper at the edge of the menu and dividing the groups within that menu itself. Whether or not you read Braille, anyone who ran their finger across a paper surface so embossed, even if they were sighted but blindfolded, would immediately recognize the presence of that raised line and be able to follow it with their finger. That's precisely what you're doing analogously with vision. It just sticks out because of how it overlays and disturbs the visual field you've been working with. It's both impossible to ignore and impossible to mistake visually for anything else.
--


Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:] Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next. We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner


Re: NVDA using braille in multi-lingual text environment

Mary Otten
 

I was talking with a friend of mine who uses JAWS at work. He says that when using braille, he can see multi-language text properly presented in braille. I am not trying to do a JAWS is better post here. I am, however, interested to know if something like that could be made possible with NVDA. Apparently, in apps, such as Word, most web browsers and mail clients, if text is properly tagged with regard to its language, you get this seamless switching of braille tables in JAWS that presents the text properly. And it should do the same with speech, if the speech profile you have enabled has voices in it that will properly read your text. I know that does not happen with NVDA, because I can set my speech to my Ivona voices, where I have both Russian and English, but the language does not switch when I'm looking at a mixed language page. That is, unless there has been a recent change, since I haven't tried any mixed language pages on my pc recently, because it didn't work before, and I hadn't seen any notices that this had been changed.


Mary

On 12/30/2020 9:55 AM, Jason White via groups.io wrote:

On 12/30/20 12:29 PM, Mary Otten wrote:
I have recently ordered a braille display. One of the things I'd like to do with it is access multi-lingual texts, e.g. websites, which have both English and cyrillic alphabets in use. In order to do that efficiently, one would need to have a braille table that included both of these alphabets, grade II English and uncontracted Russian, active at the same time, or somehow have a combined table with both at once. Is that possible?
It's possible, but I don't know whether such a table is available. Note also that the BrailleExtender add-on for NVDA allows you to switch tables easily - not what you need in this case, but at least a short-term solution.






Re: How to turn off NVDA

Blaster
 

Does exiting NVDA using the NVDA key plus the letter N key, then
choosing "Exit" from the menu give you a different result?

HTH,
Blaster

On 12/30/20, Arlene <nedster66@gmail.com> wrote:
If you did all 3 steps turning off NVDA. Once you hear the exiting sound
then there’s silence. I don’t think you can use its key commands once its
gone. You probably can but you’ll hear nothing. If you entered on a
desktop short cut it wil open but you won’t hear what you opened.



Sent from Mail for Windows 10



From: Tyler Spivey
Sent: December 30, 2020 11:21 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How to turn off NVDA



Can you tell us exactly what happens when you turn off NVDA (or record

it)? Here's what should happen:

1. Press NVDA+q to quit. It should pop up the Exit NVDA dialog.

2. Press enter. You should hear the descending sound indicating NVDA exited.

If you don't, check the log by going to the NVDA menu, Tools, View log.

Can you still use NVDA commands after you do that?



On 12/30/2020 10:40 AM, Food Posse wrote:

What a wonderful group!!
To answer what folks on this list so helpfully offered and asked:
Unfortunately, this is her own personal computer and the only one she
has so no option to change computers. Narrator is pre-installed but she
really wants NVDA.
It is definitely NVDA and not Narrator. Narrator is set to only use the
Caps Lock with a voice higher in pitch and speed to differentiate. NVDA
only with Insert. This was a really good idea since we did not think of
it!
We applied the suggestion to Reset NVDA configuration to factory default
but the same thing continues.
We uninstalled NVDA through the Apps & features settings option. No
remaining folders with NVDA. Then downloaded a new copy of NVDA to
install.
This is a new computer and we only installed and customized a couple of
programs so it is not too much of a beast to reinstall windows and do it
all again. But this will take some time so I wanted to test some of the
other suggestions first.
But some thoughts are coming to mind that I want to further investigate
before a complete wipe. Assuming the os is not corrupt, then something
is keeping an instance of NVDA active or NVDA is attaching itself to
something active like a utility so I want to follow that logic a bit
without going indefinitely down a rabbit hole!
Any other ideas is most welcome!
On 12/29/2020 2:30 PM, hurrikennyandopo ... wrote:
Hi
When you said you fully uninstalled nvda was that only from program
and features?
There is another area where the settings are keaped that should be
deleted if you are having problems if the nvda.ini file mucks up.
After NvDA has been uninstalled from program and features do the
following.
Press the windows key + the letter R it will bring up a run dialogue
box then type the following %appdata% then press the enter key.
The next screen that comes up will give you a list of directories
find the one called nvda then delete it out then close the screen with
the alt + f4 key.
then reinstall nvda. It might be a good idea actually to grab a fresh
copy of it from nvaccess then reinstall it to the pc.
Just in case you got a bad down load before.
Use the narrator screen reader to do the above unless you have some
sight to do it.
Did you try a factory reset of nvda? this some times fixes any problems.
Use the nvda key + letter N to bring up the menu when it is running
then arrow down to Reset configuration to factory defaults then press
the enter key.
Make sure also that when you go to set it up again you see the message
like which layout, do you want to use the caps lock key as a modifier
start nvda at startup etc.
I think the short cut to do the reset is nvda key + ctrl + R 3 times.
GGene nz
On 30/12/2020 4:58 am, Food Posse wrote:
Thank you for the troubleshooting efforts.
We did not select the option to launch NVDA at windows login. But
even if it was, sounds like NVDA should not auto-launch after closing
unless activated by a person. We did not change any other NVDA
default settings.
So we uninstalled and reinstalled NVDA but the same thing happens -
Insert+Q, dialog box open, default option is already Exit, dialog box
closes but NVDA continues to read the screen. Then when forced to
close through the Task Manager, NVDA still automatically relaunches
at various times like launching an app.
This is a new system so it should be pretty clean. There are very few
programs other than what came pre-installed with the laptop. AVG was
downloaded to confirm no viruses on the computer or on the NVDA exe
before we reinstalled. We even checked the startup options in the
Task Manager and NVDA is not on the list. Our friend really wants
NVDA but we are not sure what else to try.
On 12/28/2020 3:05 PM, Gene wrote:
I suspect the reason NVDA automatically comes on when set to run at
the login screen when the secure desktop comes up may be that NVDA
loads another version of itself to run when the secure desktop
opens. My guess is that there is a relation between this and the
setting to automatically run at the login screen. Perhaps one of
the developers will discuss the matter.
Gene
-----Original Message----- From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Monday, December 28, 2020 2:00 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How to turn off NVDA
On Mon, Dec 28, 2020 at 02:21 PM, Bob Cavanaugh wrote:
Actually, this isn't always the case. If the option to use NVDA on the
log-on screen is checked, it annoyingly pops up on every screen that
requires administrative action, and stays there until you shut it off.-
This is news to me, and good information to have. Most of the folks
I've worked with who are using NVDA have their systems set up to log
them straight in to their desktops on system (re)start, so they're
not using that setting.
Several don't even have any screen reader turn on initially by
default, as they will choose one based on what it is they're about
to work with first if one screen reader works with that software
better than the other.
Other than what you document above, which I've never seen because
that setting was not set, I have not encountered NVDA doing a
self-restart once explicitly exited from.
There are a number of possibilities here, but if the situation you
described is known to not have been set up, I still strongly
recommend an uninstall and reinstall to see if that clears things
up, and paying particular attention to the dialogs when installing
so the way you want NVDA to behave is actually set up correctly.











Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

 

Gene,

             It's hard to describe something visual to someone who cannot see (and has never seen), but I'll do my darndest.  Menus are, for lack of a better way of explaining it, framed.  There is usually no change in background color, but because they completely overlay what was formerly visible beneath them, and there are lines not only at the edges of the menu, but within a menu that separate groups (much like there are function groups in the ribbon interface, which sprung from that convention).

             It's the rough visual equivalent of a raised embossed line on a sheet of heavy paper at the edge of the menu and dividing the groups within that menu itself.  Whether or not you read Braille, anyone who ran their finger across a paper surface so embossed, even if they were sighted but blindfolded, would immediately recognize the presence of that raised line and be able to follow it with their finger.  That's precisely what you're doing analogously with vision.  It just sticks out because of how it overlays and disturbs the visual field you've been working with.  It's both impossible to ignore and impossible to mistake visually for anything else. 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next.  We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

        ~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner 

 


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Gene
 

Let's say a menu is opened and something like save as covers words in the document. How do the words save as look different so that they immediately stand out and don't look like a possible document? Are menu items a different color or a font that isn't used elsewhere? I assume something is done to draw the eye to the menu item so it is immediately seen as different and stands out.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2020 6:47 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 07:16 PM, Gene wrote:
If you are working in a program with a long menu, what happens if menu items cover something else on screen?-
Gene, no snark intended, but you've nailed it with the phrase "cover something else on screen." That's precisely what happens, and definitely in Windows 7 and earlier. There are transparency effects that can be activated in Windows 8 and 10, but I do not think those apply to menus proper, but to window frames and other elements. Even when transparency is on, what I have been able to see in specific contexts is not clearly visible. It is intentionally fuzzy by design.

I'll have to open something in TextMaker on my other laptop since I have it set up to use the menu interface, and I believe transparency effects are on, too, to see if they are applied to the dropdown menus or not.

--


Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:] Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next. We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

 

On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 07:16 PM, Gene wrote:
If you are working in a program with a long menu, what happens if menu items cover something else on screen?
-
Gene, no snark intended, but you've nailed it with the phrase "cover something else on screen."   That's precisely what happens, and definitely in Windows 7 and earlier.  There are transparency effects that can be activated in Windows 8 and 10, but I do not think those apply to menus proper, but to window frames and other elements.  Even when transparency is on, what I have been able to see in specific contexts is not clearly visible.  It is intentionally fuzzy by design.

I'll have to open something in TextMaker on my other laptop since I have it set up to use the menu interface, and I believe transparency effects are on, too, to see if they are applied to the dropdown menus or not.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next.  We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

        ~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner 

 


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Arlene
 

Oh, That one tec person was just ignorant. He was unwilling to help. I’ve had real good tecs who wanted to help. I’ve always asked What does the link say near the button you want me to click. He wil say the link will say something like redgester here. Then he’d say I was getting closer to it. I was having banking trouble and I had to have help fixing the whatever problem it was.   The person was amazed that the computer can talk.  I’ve had real good supportive people who wanted to help. 

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Brian Vogel
Sent: December 30, 2020 4:08 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

 

On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 02:32 PM, Arlene wrote:

You’d be a good advocate for blind users who have to fight with isp providers.  You know how they say click here or there. They have no clue that you are a blind user.  I’ve encountered someone who had no clue that I don’t see.

-
Now, Arlene, I'll probably end up causing you some offense while at the same time praising you and trashing the clueless sighted, too.

I have been a good advocate on many occasions for multiple issues.  But, at the same time, there are "click here and click there" instructions that should be simple to follow, while there are others that are impossible to follow.  There are plenty of sighted individuals (like I have to say this here), and particularly techs, who have probably never dealt with an individual who is blind let alone with a screen reader.  If you ask most of your sighted friends and acquaintances who've never been around someone who's blind when they're using a computer how they think that would work, they generally can't answer.  I could not have answered this during my many years in the computer biz, and that was, I would say, for the majority of my many years in the computer biz. The whole concept of something so visually driven in the most common user interface is almost impossible to conceive of via other modalities.  Those of us who see "swim in sight" like it's water and we're Esther Williams and, for obvious reasons, that's a taken for granted thing.  Just like those of us who can hear do the same for audition.  You just don't think about sensory modalities you lack, or how those would be substituted, when you have no real reason to in daily existence.

I honestly think it sometimes just doesn't register with some techs when you identify yourself as blind (which, I will add, is absolutely your responsibility when engaging technical support - they can't read minds) and for many where it does, what they are doing and saying is out of force of habit rather than malice or stupidity.  It's probably ignorance more than anything.  But sometimes you have to guide them, and teach them something, when they're trying to guide you in a way that can't work.  Were someone to say, "Click on the gear icon," responding with, "I can't see that, but do you mean you want me to open settings?," is going to get both sides of the equation something they need.  You get clarity (or hopefully you do) and the tech gets clued in, however subtly and possibly temporarily, that there is a way to reference things that is not purely visual.  They'll usually keep screwing up out of force of habit during any given session, but if you keep instructing them about what you need, they'll often be willing to rephrase.  For certain things, it's worth trying to get the point across that giving reference points, is something worth doing.  A response like, "Click on the red button at the upper left is meaningless for me, but is there another button or link very near to it?  If I can find that, I can likely find what's next to it."   There really are not, and never will be, enough technicians out there versed in screen readers and blindness to provide support for every product that exists, particularly for smaller companies.  But many techs really want to help, they just have no idea of exactly how, and you can serve to teach them how to an extent while getting the help you need.

All of the above being said, make no mistake, I know all too well that you will get plenty of clueless and hostile (or at least very passive and unwilling to work with you) techs.  But there are lots of folks who will quickly recognize that you are not clueless about what you need, and that they, while they may be clueless about how you get to it, can still find a way to meet you in the middle where you can both get what you want.

I worked for many years in brain injury services, and I used to tell my patients/clients who were brain injured and trying to make their way back into "the world at large" that they would constantly, endlessly, have to be their own best advocates and to educate the clueless.  It's not a choice, because that's another population that's such a tiny niche in humanity at large that there will never come a time when most people they meet and interact with will have any idea about what it is to be brain injured or what a brain injured individual might need.  The thing that someone who's had a brain injury has going against them that most blind people will not is the presumption that they are incapable of understanding a very great many things that they can.  And one of the most difficult self-advocation skills I used to teach is temper control when the clueless deserve a shovel upside the head for how obnoxious they're being and keeping composure so that you can clearly communicate what you need and what you're capable of.

Almost anyone with almost any disability is saddled with the added responsibility of having to be advocate and teacher as a part of their daily life where the majority do not.  But I do not ever see any way that will change.  It's the result of relative sizes of given demographics in the population at large.  When you're a niche, you're a niche.  Rebelling against the larger world because you have that added burden does not do any damage to the larger world.  In fact, by and large, they couldn't care less because in most instances they don't have to.  But that doesn't mean that those same people are malicious or stupid, just ignorant, and many really would love to help if they are taught how that's appropriately given.  And, believe me, the last thing you want is to have them guess, because those guesses will be wrong 99.999% of the time.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next.  We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

        ~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner 

 

 


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Gene
 

there is a question I was wondering about today as a result of thinking about the discussion. If you are working in a program with a long menu, what happens if menu items cover something else on screen? If a menu item, such as save as or work off line, covers words in a document, do you see the words in the document behind the menu item? Does the contrast change in what is being covered up so you can easily see the menu item and the item behind it is quite dark, or are such things handled in some other way?

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2020 5:33 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 03:19 PM, Jackie wrote:
I think Arlene was just trying to say that Brian doesn't instruct like most sighted folks. The context of the message bears that out, Ibelieve.-
And that's how I read it, and particularly in reference to my avoiding "point and click" terminology when speaking to a blind and visually impaired audience, which I try to be very mindful to avoid.

Yet, Gene is correct is his observation that it is every bit as incumbent on blind users to have the mental tools at their disposal to "translate" a point and click instruction set to keyboard user equivalent. When I tutor, this is something I teach when necessary. Most of my students have been individuals who are formerly sighted, so they implicitly understand "point and click" style in instruction sets, and what I teach them is not only how to use a screen reader, per se, but what the translations from sighted-focused terminology to keyboard-focused terminology is. They should, at the end, be able to look at an instruction set written for either the sighted or the blind and be equally comfortable following either.

As Mike Capelle noted, "We all live in a sighted world," and I don't think there's a single reader here who does not understand what he meant. Like the old Palmolive commercial: You're soaking in it.

While any given individual can make any choices they see fit, choices have consequences. And if you're a blind computer user who, by choice, cuts yourself off from "sighted centric" instructions, you are cutting yourself off from the vast majority of material out there that can answer many questions you have.

I do not rewrite the instruction sets I have written for keyboard-focused audiences when I post same in sighted-centric venues. I make a point of saying, "This was written with blind individuals in mind, and is keyboard focused, but you [the random sighted user] should easily be able to translate these to using the mouse." I fully expect that this should work in the opposite direction, too, and make no apology for that. I do offer pointers to certain sighted-centric instructions, not written by me, because they're good instruction sets. I don't think that it's impossible to know that, "click on," means "gain focus on and select," "double click on, " means, "activate by your preferred method, etc. It's a basic skill that anyone who wishes to expand their own computer use expertise should acquire. And heaven knows there are a very great number of members other than myself who can assist if you happen to be someone in the translation acquisition phase of your own education.

--


Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:] Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next. We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Arlene
 

That’s right. He doesn’t give instructions like a sighted person. That’s why I thought he was blind like us!  Well, Sighted, Deaf or blind we all can operate a computer and learn off one another. I don’t care as long as the person has good knolege. If the person knows what one needs and can communicate the way some users communicate then all the world to them.  I’m sure brian will continue to be a good Moderator. 

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Jackie
Sent: December 30, 2020 12:19 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

 

I think Arlene was just trying to say that Brian doesn't instruct like

most sighted folks. The context of the message bears that out, I

believe.

 

Full moon. It hsows. Last of 2020. Ow-oo. Happy New Year, all.

 

On 12/30/20, Gary Metzler <gmtravel@...> wrote:

> Very well said.

> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Nimer Jaber

> Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2020 2:55 PM

> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

> Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

> Hello Arlene,

> I would like to challenge your message and thinking a little bit. I am

> posting publicly, because it is an important topic. While you seem to be in

> support of Brian, I couldn't help but notice that you stated that Brian

> doesn't sound "blind".

> What does a blind person sound like? Is it really necessary to judge people

> as sounding a certain way? Isn't it better if we choose to not judge, not

> have preconceived notions which divide us and put barriers between us? Isn't

> the rest of the world already divided? Should we not model, as a community,

> the very definition of non-discrimination? That is my ideal, anyway, my hope

> in writing this message. We all are human beings. We all are beautiful,

> unique souls. The things that bring us together should be the things we

> honor and acknowledge. Brian brings so many strengths to the table as a

> moderator, we should all appreciate those things about Brian that makes him

> the wonderful individual that he is. Same goes for anyone else on this list.

> We all have struggles, we all have cultural differences, we all have

> differing opinions on politics and whatever else, but at the end of the day,

> every single one of you are all beatutiful, human souls, regardless of your

> physical characteristics.

> For me, I welcome anyone on this list, and as a moderator, without regard to

> any physical, religious, sex, etc characteristics, and I urge everyone to

> drop your preconceived notions as to who any of us are, and focus please, on

> the things that bring us together, and celebrate those things that make us

> unique.

> Thank you everyone for the support you are showing Brian.

> On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 11:32 AM Arlene <nedster66@...

> <mailto:nedster66@...> > wrote:

> I had no clue you can see. The way you talk like the blind users. I thought

> you were blind like us.  Well, keep up the good work. You’d be a good

> advocate for blind users who have to fight with isp providers.  You know how

> they say click here or there. They have no clue that you are a blind user.

> I’ve encountered someone who had no clue that I don’t see.  The person said

> Oh don’t listen to the screen reader listen to me. I said that screen reader

> helps me help you see the screen.  He tried to tell me to click a green box.

> Just then a sighted friend who happened to know how to talk like us blind

> users.  She told the person on the phone that I don’t see.  He felt like a

> fool! This screen reader was NVDA.  I don’t know if this is true. This

> friend said that NVDA looks more like windows. She described that it

> interacts more like you would see windows like a sighted person.  Some of

> the key commands are similar to Jaws.  Even my food safe tutor said the NVDA

> screen reader looks more like windows.  He had full sight.

> Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986>  for Windows

> 10

> From: Brian Vogel <mailto:britechguy@...>

> Sent: December 30, 2020 9:29 AM

> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>

> Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

> Rosemarie and Arlene,

>            I just wanted to thank you for your kind words, and particularly

> for your saying you'd forgotten or not known that I am sighted.  I do

> mention this occasionally because I do not want anyone, on any of the blind

> technology groups on which I participate, to ever believe I am trying to

> impersonate a blind person nor making any claim that I can or do know, a in

> lived experience sense, what it is to be blind.  I've simply worked with

> blind technology and individuals who are blind and visually impaired for

> quite a few years now and that's taught me an awful lot.

>            But it's very nice to know that, at least for the most part, much

> of what I now write in these venues reads in such a way that the fact that I

> see is not at all readily obvious unless I bring it up or someone else does.

>  There are times where the fact that I can see is relevant, and it makes

> perfect sense for that to be mentioned when it is.  But when it's not

> germane to the conversation it just isn't.

> --

> Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042

> [Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to

> overturn the votes certified by 4 states:]  Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling,

> but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next.

>  We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

>         ~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan

> and John Boehner

> --

> Best,

> Nimer Jaber

> The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it was

> addressed. If you believe that you are not the intended recipient,

> please notify me via reply email and destroy all copies of this

> correspondence. Action taken as a result of this email or its contents

> by anyone other than the intended recipient(s) may result in civil or

> criminal charges. I have checked this email and all corresponding

> attachments for security threats.

> Registered Linux User 529141.

> http://counter.li.org/

> To find out about a free, open-source, and versatile screen reader for

> Windows, visit nvaccess.org <http://www.nvda-project.org>

> You can follow @nimerjaber on Twitter for the latest technology news.

> To contact me, you can reply to this email or you may call me at (970)

> (393-4481) and I will do my best to respond to you promptly.

> Thank you, and have a great day!

>

 

 

--

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& check out my sites at www.brightstarsweb.com & www.mysitesbeenhacked.com

 

 

 

 

 


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

 

On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 02:32 PM, Arlene wrote:
You’d be a good advocate for blind users who have to fight with isp providers.  You know how they say click here or there. They have no clue that you are a blind user.  I’ve encountered someone who had no clue that I don’t see.
-
Now, Arlene, I'll probably end up causing you some offense while at the same time praising you and trashing the clueless sighted, too.

I have been a good advocate on many occasions for multiple issues.  But, at the same time, there are "click here and click there" instructions that should be simple to follow, while there are others that are impossible to follow.  There are plenty of sighted individuals (like I have to say this here), and particularly techs, who have probably never dealt with an individual who is blind let alone with a screen reader.  If you ask most of your sighted friends and acquaintances who've never been around someone who's blind when they're using a computer how they think that would work, they generally can't answer.  I could not have answered this during my many years in the computer biz, and that was, I would say, for the majority of my many years in the computer biz. The whole concept of something so visually driven in the most common user interface is almost impossible to conceive of via other modalities.  Those of us who see "swim in sight" like it's water and we're Esther Williams and, for obvious reasons, that's a taken for granted thing.  Just like those of us who can hear do the same for audition.  You just don't think about sensory modalities you lack, or how those would be substituted, when you have no real reason to in daily existence.

I honestly think it sometimes just doesn't register with some techs when you identify yourself as blind (which, I will add, is absolutely your responsibility when engaging technical support - they can't read minds) and for many where it does, what they are doing and saying is out of force of habit rather than malice or stupidity.  It's probably ignorance more than anything.  But sometimes you have to guide them, and teach them something, when they're trying to guide you in a way that can't work.  Were someone to say, "Click on the gear icon," responding with, "I can't see that, but do you mean you want me to open settings?," is going to get both sides of the equation something they need.  You get clarity (or hopefully you do) and the tech gets clued in, however subtly and possibly temporarily, that there is a way to reference things that is not purely visual.  They'll usually keep screwing up out of force of habit during any given session, but if you keep instructing them about what you need, they'll often be willing to rephrase.  For certain things, it's worth trying to get the point across that giving reference points, is something worth doing.  A response like, "Click on the red button at the upper left is meaningless for me, but is there another button or link very near to it?  If I can find that, I can likely find what's next to it."   There really are not, and never will be, enough technicians out there versed in screen readers and blindness to provide support for every product that exists, particularly for smaller companies.  But many techs really want to help, they just have no idea of exactly how, and you can serve to teach them how to an extent while getting the help you need.

All of the above being said, make no mistake, I know all too well that you will get plenty of clueless and hostile (or at least very passive and unwilling to work with you) techs.  But there are lots of folks who will quickly recognize that you are not clueless about what you need, and that they, while they may be clueless about how you get to it, can still find a way to meet you in the middle where you can both get what you want.

I worked for many years in brain injury services, and I used to tell my patients/clients who were brain injured and trying to make their way back into "the world at large" that they would constantly, endlessly, have to be their own best advocates and to educate the clueless.  It's not a choice, because that's another population that's such a tiny niche in humanity at large that there will never come a time when most people they meet and interact with will have any idea about what it is to be brain injured or what a brain injured individual might need.  The thing that someone who's had a brain injury has going against them that most blind people will not is the presumption that they are incapable of understanding a very great many things that they can.  And one of the most difficult self-advocation skills I used to teach is temper control when the clueless deserve a shovel upside the head for how obnoxious they're being and keeping composure so that you can clearly communicate what you need and what you're capable of.

Almost anyone with almost any disability is saddled with the added responsibility of having to be advocate and teacher as a part of their daily life where the majority do not.  But I do not ever see any way that will change.  It's the result of relative sizes of given demographics in the population at large.  When you're a niche, you're a niche.  Rebelling against the larger world because you have that added burden does not do any damage to the larger world.  In fact, by and large, they couldn't care less because in most instances they don't have to.  But that doesn't mean that those same people are malicious or stupid, just ignorant, and many really would love to help if they are taught how that's appropriately given.  And, believe me, the last thing you want is to have them guess, because those guesses will be wrong 99.999% of the time.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next.  We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

        ~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner 

 


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Arlene
 

I said what I said. I didn’t know Brian was sighted. I really thought he was blind like us. Now come to think of it. Blind, deaf or whatever you may be we all have computer skills.

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Nimer Jaber
Sent: December 30, 2020 11:55 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

 

Hello Arlene,

 

I would like to challenge your message and thinking a little bit. I am posting publicly, because it is an important topic. While you seem to be in support of Brian, I couldn't help but notice that you stated that Brian doesn't sound "blind".

 

What does a blind person sound like? Is it really necessary to judge people as sounding a certain way? Isn't it better if we choose to not judge, not have preconceived notions which divide us and put barriers between us? Isn't the rest of the world already divided? Should we not model, as a community, the very definition of non-discrimination? That is my ideal, anyway, my hope in writing this message. We all are human beings. We all are beautiful, unique souls. The things that bring us together should be the things we honor and acknowledge. Brian brings so many strengths to the table as a moderator, we should all appreciate those things about Brian that makes him the wonderful individual that he is. Same goes for anyone else on this list. We all have struggles, we all have cultural differences, we all have differing opinions on politics and whatever else, but at the end of the day, every single one of you are all beatutiful, human souls, regardless of your physical characteristics.

 

For me, I welcome anyone on this list, and as a moderator, without regard to any physical, religious, sex, etc characteristics, and I urge everyone to drop your preconceived notions as to who any of us are, and focus please, on the things that bring us together, and celebrate those things that make us unique.

 

Thank you everyone for the support you are showing Brian.

 

On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 11:32 AM Arlene <nedster66@...> wrote:

I had no clue you can see. The way you talk like the blind users. I thought you were blind like us.  Well, keep up the good work. You’d be a good advocate for blind users who have to fight with isp providers.  You know how they say click here or there. They have no clue that you are a blind user.  I’ve encountered someone who had no clue that I don’t see.  The person said Oh don’t listen to the screen reader listen to me. I said that screen reader helps me help you see the screen.  He tried to tell me to click a green box. Just then a sighted friend who happened to know how to talk like us blind users.  She told the person on the phone that I don’t see.  He felt like a fool! This screen reader was NVDA.  I don’t know if this is true. This friend said that NVDA looks more like windows. She described that it interacts more like you would see windows like a sighted person.  Some of the key commands are similar to Jaws.  Even my food safe tutor said the NVDA screen reader looks more like windows.  He had full sight.   

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Brian Vogel
Sent: December 30, 2020 9:29 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

 

Rosemarie and Arlene,

           I just wanted to thank you for your kind words, and particularly for your saying you'd forgotten or not known that I am sighted.  I do mention this occasionally because I do not want anyone, on any of the blind technology groups on which I participate, to ever believe I am trying to impersonate a blind person nor making any claim that I can or do know, a in lived experience sense, what it is to be blind.  I've simply worked with blind technology and individuals who are blind and visually impaired for quite a few years now and that's taught me an awful lot.

           But it's very nice to know that, at least for the most part, much of what I now write in these venues reads in such a way that the fact that I see is not at all readily obvious unless I bring it up or someone else does.  There are times where the fact that I can see is relevant, and it makes perfect sense for that to be mentioned when it is.  But when it's not germane to the conversation it just isn't.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next.  We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

        ~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner 

 

 


 

--

Best,

Nimer Jaber

The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it was
addressed. If you believe that you are not the intended recipient,
please notify me via reply email and destroy all copies of this
correspondence. Action taken as a result of this email or its contents
by anyone other than the intended recipient(s) may result in civil or
criminal charges. I have checked this email and all corresponding
attachments for security threats.


Registered Linux User 529141.
http://counter.li.org/

To find out about a free, open-source, and versatile screen reader for Windows, visit nvaccess.org

You can follow @nimerjaber on Twitter for the latest technology news.

To contact me, you can reply to this email or you may call me at (970) (393-4481) and I will do my best to respond to you promptly.

 

Thank you, and have a great day!

 


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

 

On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 03:19 PM, Jackie wrote:
I think Arlene was just trying to say that Brian doesn't instruct like most sighted folks. The context of the message bears that out, Ibelieve.
-
And that's how I read it, and particularly in reference to my avoiding "point and click" terminology when speaking to a blind and visually impaired audience, which I try to be very mindful to avoid.

Yet, Gene is correct is his observation that it is every bit as incumbent on blind users to have the mental tools at their disposal to "translate" a point and click instruction set to keyboard user equivalent.  When I tutor, this is something I teach when necessary.  Most of my students have been individuals who are formerly sighted, so they implicitly understand "point and click" style in instruction sets, and what I teach them is not only how to use a screen reader, per se, but what the translations from sighted-focused terminology to keyboard-focused terminology is.  They should, at the end, be able to look at an instruction set written for either the sighted or the blind and be equally comfortable following either.

As Mike Capelle noted, "We all live in a sighted world," and I don't think there's a single reader here who does not understand what he meant.  Like the old Palmolive commercial:  You're soaking in it.

While any given individual can make any choices they see fit, choices have consequences.  And if you're a blind computer user who, by choice, cuts yourself off from "sighted centric" instructions, you are cutting yourself off from the vast majority of material out there that can answer many questions you have.

I do not rewrite the instruction sets I have written for keyboard-focused audiences when I post same in sighted-centric venues.  I make a point of saying, "This was written with blind individuals in mind, and is keyboard focused, but you [the random sighted user] should easily be able to translate these to using the mouse."  I fully expect that this should work in the opposite direction, too, and make no apology for that.  I do offer pointers to certain sighted-centric instructions, not written by me, because they're good instruction sets.  I don't think that it's impossible to know that, "click on," means "gain focus on and select," "double click on, " means, "activate by your preferred method, etc.  It's a basic skill that anyone who wishes to expand their own computer use expertise should acquire.  And heaven knows there are a very great number of members other than myself who can assist if you happen to be someone in the translation acquisition phase of your own education.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next.  We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

        ~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner 

 


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Mike Capelle <mcap@...>
 

We all live in a sighted world.


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Dennis L <dennisl1982@...>
 

First I worked with Brian once. He gave his time and tried to get my shut down sound to play. I found him to be very smart and knowledgeable. He knew how to explain things that I understood. He explained what he was doing when we did a remote session. Did the problem get resolved no but that wasn't for a lack of effort on Brian's part. So I agree we shouldn't judge.

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Shaun Everiss
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2020 5:17 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

That could be a little generalistic.

On here, sure probably spot on.

However I have had instances, some of which were in university, where one person helping me actually had a second terminal and looked up keyboard shortcuts and such but another did everything because they didn't know what else to do.

I have had similar issues with some stuff.

Say the system was broken.

Sightling wants to fix the thing themselves.

I try to instruct, and they still get it wrong.

So I guess it works both ways.

I've also had various instructions given to me that were not the right ones.

Some by those that should have known better to.

These were to fix issues that I was asking for.

They ended up breaking things a lot more.

Excluding microsoft support here, I actually had something else that I wanted to get help fixing.

Lets just say the instructions didn't fix things.

They made them worse.

I had to take the long way round, which is the way I usually do if its just to broken for me to care.

Of course things are more complex when they break and it takes me a while to rebuild rather than fix a broken thing.

I have friends that while quite smart with tech, I wouldn't trust enough to tell me how to print a document or update an app, and thats because I have done it the other way.

I guess the good thing is we don't easily get destracted with flashy buttons.

To set up somethings, for say a device, open the right program, install the right driver, etc.

They are open the right program, install the right driver, click the interesting add that looks to say install drivers without reading it.

Load the extra stuff by clicking about, go through instructions to install something without reading the entire screen or worse try to text and do computer work at the same time.

Finnish, put in payment information to install drivers, finally put down their phone and find they are lost.

They ask me, where they are.

And I go updating a program, where did you go, they say don't know.

I installed something told it download now and did a few other things and it all loaded.

And I go, were you on the phone and they go yeah and I go, maybe you give it to me to fix and I try to do it.

Of course once I clear the spyware, and possibly clean install their os, I try the command on my system, their system, my couple extra workstations and find it works and wander, where they went wrong.

I have also had sightlings go all over the place bar the icons they should or get impatient I am navigating slowly to where I need instead of rappidly moving toward it and clicking randomly.

So in some cases its better to be instructing the sightling rather than the other way round.

One of the worst half screen readers is my dad.

At least once a year he loads spyware and other junk on his system because he is trying to follow what should be a simple instruction.

But I guess its the generation.

My now dead grandpa never caught up with computers and my aunt while she knows enough about work stuff and office would panic if windows didn't start with the network working.

She doesn't want to learn either though.

There are those sorts of people about to instruct us to.

So for a beginner, you need to know simple things, like double click translates to enter.

Single click of left could be space, right click is the applications key or shift f10, etc.

All those shaped icons like envelopes and corners just don't work, etc, etc, etc.

In fact even if you are not sure, even if you don't ever want to rtfm like I hardly do, at least read a simple shortcut list of required keys before asking for or instructing and you may get about unless the program is visual in nature.

I learned things through trial and error.

So radio buttons are buttons you can check and uncheck, checkboxes are boxes, combo boxes and list boxes are just boxes with lists in them.

And some stuff doesn't translate at all.

Instructions are generally fine from a sighted person, but depends what they are, those can be subjective.




On 31/12/2020 9:43 am, Gene wrote:
There is no inherent reason a sighted person can't provide
instructions that correspond to the way blind people generally do
things on computers or anywhere else. It depends what they know.


Conversely, and this is being overlooked in the discussion, blind
people who know how can provide instructions similar to what a sighted
person would provide for a sighted person.


for example, I could tell a sighted person to open a program, click on
the tools menu or the gear icon, if I knew that is how it is shown,
and it usually is, then click options, and so on.


The ability to do this means that a blind person understands how to
apply sighted instructions to using a computer as a blind person
usually does. If blind people know something about translating
sighted instructions into blind procedures, they will be able to help
themselves learn more programs and can often follow instructions on
how to work with this or that feature in programs they already use
that are written for sighted people.


If a blind person is interested and wants to learn these things, the
benefits may be meaningful to the person. Many blind people only use
programs that have specific instructional material for blind people
and their interests don't go further. But its important that this
other side of the discussion be pointed out.


Gene

On 12/30/2020 2:19 PM, Jackie wrote:

I think Arlene was just trying to say that Brian doesn't instruct like
most sighted folks. The context of the message bears that out, I
believe.

Full moon. It hsows. Last of 2020. Ow-oo. Happy New Year, all.

On 12/30/20, Gary Metzler <gmtravel@comcast.net> wrote:
Very well said.



From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Nimer
Jaber
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2020 2:55 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read
#adminnotice



Hello Arlene,



I would like to challenge your message and thinking a little bit. I am
posting publicly, because it is an important topic. While you seem
to be in
support of Brian, I couldn't help but notice that you stated that Brian
doesn't sound "blind".



What does a blind person sound like? Is it really necessary to judge
people
as sounding a certain way? Isn't it better if we choose to not
judge, not
have preconceived notions which divide us and put barriers between
us? Isn't
the rest of the world already divided? Should we not model, as a
community,
the very definition of non-discrimination? That is my ideal, anyway,
my hope
in writing this message. We all are human beings. We all are beautiful,
unique souls. The things that bring us together should be the things we
honor and acknowledge. Brian brings so many strengths to the table as a
moderator, we should all appreciate those things about Brian that
makes him
the wonderful individual that he is. Same goes for anyone else on
this list.
We all have struggles, we all have cultural differences, we all have
differing opinions on politics and whatever else, but at the end of
the day,
every single one of you are all beatutiful, human souls, regardless
of your
physical characteristics.



For me, I welcome anyone on this list, and as a moderator, without
regard to
any physical, religious, sex, etc characteristics, and I urge
everyone to
drop your preconceived notions as to who any of us are, and focus
please, on
the things that bring us together, and celebrate those things that
make us
unique.



Thank you everyone for the support you are showing Brian.



On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 11:32 AM Arlene <nedster66@gmail.com
<mailto:nedster66@gmail.com> > wrote:

I had no clue you can see. The way you talk like the blind users. I
thought
you were blind like us. Well, keep up the good work. You’d be a good
advocate for blind users who have to fight with isp providers. You
know how
they say click here or there. They have no clue that you are a blind
user.
I’ve encountered someone who had no clue that I don’t see. The
person said
Oh don’t listen to the screen reader listen to me. I said that
screen reader
helps me help you see the screen. He tried to tell me to click a
green box.
Just then a sighted friend who happened to know how to talk like us
blind
users. She told the person on the phone that I don’t see. He felt
like a
fool! This screen reader was NVDA. I don’t know if this is true. This
friend said that NVDA looks more like windows. She described that it
interacts more like you would see windows like a sighted person.
Some of
the key commands are similar to Jaws. Even my food safe tutor said
the NVDA
screen reader looks more like windows. He had full sight.



Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for
Windows
10



From: Brian Vogel <mailto:britechguy@gmail.com>
Sent: December 30, 2020 9:29 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read
#adminnotice



Rosemarie and Arlene,

I just wanted to thank you for your kind words, and
particularly
for your saying you'd forgotten or not known that I am sighted. I do
mention this occasionally because I do not want anyone, on any of
the blind
technology groups on which I participate, to ever believe I am
trying to
impersonate a blind person nor making any claim that I can or do
know, a in
lived experience sense, what it is to be blind. I've simply worked
with
blind technology and individuals who are blind and visually impaired
for
quite a few years now and that's taught me an awful lot.

But it's very nice to know that, at least for the most
part, much
of what I now write in these venues reads in such a way that the
fact that I
see is not at all readily obvious unless I bring it up or someone
else does.
There are times where the fact that I can see is relevant, and it
makes
perfect sense for that to be mentioned when it is. But when it's not
germane to the conversation it just isn't.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by
Texas to
overturn the votes certified by 4 states:] Pleased with the SCOTUS
ruling,
but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train
goes next.
We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House
Paul Ryan
and John Boehner










--

Best,

Nimer Jaber

The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it was
addressed. If you believe that you are not the intended recipient,
please notify me via reply email and destroy all copies of this
correspondence. Action taken as a result of this email or its contents
by anyone other than the intended recipient(s) may result in civil or
criminal charges. I have checked this email and all corresponding
attachments for security threats.


Registered Linux User 529141.
http://counter.li.org/

To find out about a free, open-source, and versatile screen reader for
Windows, visit nvaccess.org <http://www.nvda-project.org>

You can follow @nimerjaber on Twitter for the latest technology news.

To contact me, you can reply to this email or you may call me at (970)
(393-4481) and I will do my best to respond to you promptly.



Thank you, and have a great day!











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