Date   

Re: nvda and ham calls

Sarah k Alawami
 

Like I said, this program does not have edit fields per-say. Even in notepad I can't read the calls correctly, and remember I'm using 1 hand. I even tried all caps and that idea failed last Tuesday when I was logging for someone. Again, if you want more info go to their website.

I can try this Saturday when I practice logging for the Saturday morning digital net, that is, if I'm alert enough to practice. By the way you do have to be a ham to dl the software, so can the hams please help? I really don't want to find another piece of software as let's say my computer reboots, I can have someone take over while I get up and running, so long as they have the pw to log.

Blessings all, I'm off to bed. I have a 3 hour training to do tomorrow.

--

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website.

Check out my adventures with a shadow machine.

to subscribe to the feed click here and you can also follow us on twitter

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on twitch. Feel free to give the channel a follow and see what is up there.

For stream archives, products you can buy and more visit my main lbry page and my tffp lbry page You will also be able to buy some of my products and eBooks there.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 22 Oct 2020, at 21:50, Ron Canazzi wrote:

Hi Sara,

Try one more thing and if it doesn't work, then find another program. Once in a while, when all else fails, highlight the whole edit field and then (laptop equivalent) press the read line keystroke twice quickly. With desktop, that is insert + up arrow.


On 10/22/2020 9:41 PM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:

It does not. You type in the sign and hit enter. If I need to edit a call, good luck, as that part is hard to do so I'd better get it right.

To read the calls, I up and down arrow but I cannot move left and right to read the characters and hitting nvda left and right yields blank blank blank. In fact object mode yields nothing at least in the net logger window.

--

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website.

Check out my adventures with a shadow machine.

to subscribe to the feed click here and you can also follow us on twitter

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on twitch. Feel free to give the channel a follow and see what is up there.

For stream archives, products you can buy and more visit my main lbry page and my tffp lbry page You will also be able to buy some of my products and eBooks there.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 22 Oct 2020, at 14:19, Ron Canazzi wrote:

Hi Sara,

Does this net logger have an edit field for each item?  If so, then either try using screen review or object navigation. I used to use an old ham database program years ago and using NVDA, if you moved to the edit field and then switched to object navigation, highlighted the callsign and then used the 5 key you could usually get it to work. If not try using screen review--a bit clumsy, but it may also work.


On 10/22/2020 4:00 PM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:

I can't do that. I use an app called "netlogger." and using what ever that would be in laptop keys yields "blank blank blank" even though I typed in the stuff. So that won't work. You can find out more about netlogger here. and it's free so feel free to download and see what I mean.

--

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website.

Check out my adventures with a shadow machine.

to subscribe to the feed click here and you can also follow us on twitter

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on twitch. Feel free to give the channel a follow and see what is up there.

For stream archives, products you can buy and more visit my main lbry page and my tffp lbry page You will also be able to buy some of my products and eBooks there.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 22 Oct 2020, at 11:57, Ron Canazzi wrote:

Hi Sara,

Using JAWS, there was a setting to 'spell alpha numeric expressions.'  NVDA does  not have this option. What I do when running nets is to highlight the callsign and then use the keypad 5 key to read the callsign and if I can't tell what the call is initially, I double punch the 5 key to have the expression spelled alpha numerically as in alpha alpha 2 victor Mike.


On 10/22/2020 1:26 PM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:

Hello to all. For those that don't know, I'm an amateur radio operator, and in a week I'm due to run a net. Fine, except I struggle with reading ham calls. I know on the BNS there was a ham calls option where it would read those such as ke7zum. Is there such a thing for nvda? Or can an option be thought of, an add on that could be turned on and off at will to allow for such? I know this won't happen by the 27th when I'm due to control, but I'm sure I'm not the only one who would like this.

I'm using the ibm tts voices but espeak and david does this as well. I can't code or I would find a way to do this myself.

The thing that makes this harder is not all call signs are 2 by 3 like mine. Some are a 1 by 1, or a 1 by 2. I've even seen some 2 by 2 calls.

Thanks all.

--

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website.

Check out my adventures with a shadow machine.

to subscribe to the feed click here and you can also follow us on twitter

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on twitch. Feel free to give the channel a follow and see what is up there.

For stream archives, products you can buy and more visit my main lbry page and my tffp lbry page You will also be able to buy some of my products and eBooks there.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here


-- 
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"

-- 
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"

-- 
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


Re: nvda and ham calls

Ron Canazzi
 

Hi Sara,

Try one more thing and if it doesn't work, then find another program. Once in a while, when all else fails, highlight the whole edit field and then (laptop equivalent) press the read line keystroke twice quickly. With desktop, that is insert + up arrow.


On 10/22/2020 9:41 PM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:

It does not. You type in the sign and hit enter. If I need to edit a call, good luck, as that part is hard to do so I'd better get it right.

To read the calls, I up and down arrow but I cannot move left and right to read the characters and hitting nvda left and right yields blank blank blank. In fact object mode yields nothing at least in the net logger window.

--

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website.

Check out my adventures with a shadow machine.

to subscribe to the feed click here and you can also follow us on twitter

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on twitch. Feel free to give the channel a follow and see what is up there.

For stream archives, products you can buy and more visit my main lbry page and my tffp lbry page You will also be able to buy some of my products and eBooks there.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 22 Oct 2020, at 14:19, Ron Canazzi wrote:

Hi Sara,

Does this net logger have an edit field for each item?  If so, then either try using screen review or object navigation. I used to use an old ham database program years ago and using NVDA, if you moved to the edit field and then switched to object navigation, highlighted the callsign and then used the 5 key you could usually get it to work. If not try using screen review--a bit clumsy, but it may also work.


On 10/22/2020 4:00 PM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:

I can't do that. I use an app called "netlogger." and using what ever that would be in laptop keys yields "blank blank blank" even though I typed in the stuff. So that won't work. You can find out more about netlogger here. and it's free so feel free to download and see what I mean.

--

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website.

Check out my adventures with a shadow machine.

to subscribe to the feed click here and you can also follow us on twitter

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on twitch. Feel free to give the channel a follow and see what is up there.

For stream archives, products you can buy and more visit my main lbry page and my tffp lbry page You will also be able to buy some of my products and eBooks there.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 22 Oct 2020, at 11:57, Ron Canazzi wrote:

Hi Sara,

Using JAWS, there was a setting to 'spell alpha numeric expressions.'  NVDA does  not have this option. What I do when running nets is to highlight the callsign and then use the keypad 5 key to read the callsign and if I can't tell what the call is initially, I double punch the 5 key to have the expression spelled alpha numerically as in alpha alpha 2 victor Mike.


On 10/22/2020 1:26 PM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:

Hello to all. For those that don't know, I'm an amateur radio operator, and in a week I'm due to run a net. Fine, except I struggle with reading ham calls. I know on the BNS there was a ham calls option where it would read those such as ke7zum. Is there such a thing for nvda? Or can an option be thought of, an add on that could be turned on and off at will to allow for such? I know this won't happen by the 27th when I'm due to control, but I'm sure I'm not the only one who would like this.

I'm using the ibm tts voices but espeak and david does this as well. I can't code or I would find a way to do this myself.

The thing that makes this harder is not all call signs are 2 by 3 like mine. Some are a 1 by 1, or a 1 by 2. I've even seen some 2 by 2 calls.

Thanks all.

--

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website.

Check out my adventures with a shadow machine.

to subscribe to the feed click here and you can also follow us on twitter

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on twitch. Feel free to give the channel a follow and see what is up there.

For stream archives, products you can buy and more visit my main lbry page and my tffp lbry page You will also be able to buy some of my products and eBooks there.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here


-- 
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"

-- 
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"

-- 
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


Re: nvda and ham calls

Sarah k Alawami
 

It does not. You type in the sign and hit enter. If I need to edit a call, good luck, as that part is hard to do so I'd better get it right.

To read the calls, I up and down arrow but I cannot move left and right to read the characters and hitting nvda left and right yields blank blank blank. In fact object mode yields nothing at least in the net logger window.

--

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website.

Check out my adventures with a shadow machine.

to subscribe to the feed click here and you can also follow us on twitter

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on twitch. Feel free to give the channel a follow and see what is up there.

For stream archives, products you can buy and more visit my main lbry page and my tffp lbry page You will also be able to buy some of my products and eBooks there.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 22 Oct 2020, at 14:19, Ron Canazzi wrote:

Hi Sara,

Does this net logger have an edit field for each item?  If so, then either try using screen review or object navigation. I used to use an old ham database program years ago and using NVDA, if you moved to the edit field and then switched to object navigation, highlighted the callsign and then used the 5 key you could usually get it to work. If not try using screen review--a bit clumsy, but it may also work.


On 10/22/2020 4:00 PM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:

I can't do that. I use an app called "netlogger." and using what ever that would be in laptop keys yields "blank blank blank" even though I typed in the stuff. So that won't work. You can find out more about netlogger here. and it's free so feel free to download and see what I mean.

--

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website.

Check out my adventures with a shadow machine.

to subscribe to the feed click here and you can also follow us on twitter

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on twitch. Feel free to give the channel a follow and see what is up there.

For stream archives, products you can buy and more visit my main lbry page and my tffp lbry page You will also be able to buy some of my products and eBooks there.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 22 Oct 2020, at 11:57, Ron Canazzi wrote:

Hi Sara,

Using JAWS, there was a setting to 'spell alpha numeric expressions.'  NVDA does  not have this option. What I do when running nets is to highlight the callsign and then use the keypad 5 key to read the callsign and if I can't tell what the call is initially, I double punch the 5 key to have the expression spelled alpha numerically as in alpha alpha 2 victor Mike.


On 10/22/2020 1:26 PM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:

Hello to all. For those that don't know, I'm an amateur radio operator, and in a week I'm due to run a net. Fine, except I struggle with reading ham calls. I know on the BNS there was a ham calls option where it would read those such as ke7zum. Is there such a thing for nvda? Or can an option be thought of, an add on that could be turned on and off at will to allow for such? I know this won't happen by the 27th when I'm due to control, but I'm sure I'm not the only one who would like this.

I'm using the ibm tts voices but espeak and david does this as well. I can't code or I would find a way to do this myself.

The thing that makes this harder is not all call signs are 2 by 3 like mine. Some are a 1 by 1, or a 1 by 2. I've even seen some 2 by 2 calls.

Thanks all.

--

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website.

Check out my adventures with a shadow machine.

to subscribe to the feed click here and you can also follow us on twitter

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on twitch. Feel free to give the channel a follow and see what is up there.

For stream archives, products you can buy and more visit my main lbry page and my tffp lbry page You will also be able to buy some of my products and eBooks there.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here


-- 
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"

-- 
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


Re: In-Process is out

Mary Otten
 

I just went to the NVDA shop and found that when I clicked on the link to learn more about the bundle, it added that bundle to my cart, but didn't say anything more about the bundle. There isn't a separate add to cart link for that one, but I don't think learn more should add the product to the cart. I tried it twice with the same result both times.


Mary


On 10/22/2020 5:08 PM, Quentin Christensen wrote:
Good morning everyone,

The latest In-Process blog is out, including information on NVDA 2020.3, NVDACon 2020 (and a highlight from NVDACon 2018), and information on reporting formatting information with NVDA+f (and just what does NVDA+shift+f do?). Read now at: https://www.nvaccess.org/post/in-process-23rd-october-2020/

Have a great weekend!

Quentin.
--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager


In-Process is out

Quentin Christensen
 

Good morning everyone,

The latest In-Process blog is out, including information on NVDA 2020.3, NVDACon 2020 (and a highlight from NVDACon 2018), and information on reporting formatting information with NVDA+f (and just what does NVDA+shift+f do?). Read now at: https://www.nvaccess.org/post/in-process-23rd-october-2020/

Have a great weekend!

Quentin.
--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager


Re: emphasized and not emphasized> what is this?

Ibrahim Abedrabbo
 

Thanks a million Chris. This feature caught me by surprise.

Regards,

 

Ibrahim

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Chris via groups.io
Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2020 5:08 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] emphasized and not emphasized> what is this?

 

It Can be found under document formatting in nvda settings  look for emphasis about the fourth option down

 

 

From: Ibrahim Abedrabbo
Sent: 22 October 2020 22:00
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] emphasized and not emphasized> what is this?

 

Hi folks,

I am now using NVDA 20.3> However, I noticed when I go to websites using firefox and read through the text, NVDA constantly tell me emphasized and not emphasized. I assume it is referring to either underlined or bold text. Is this a new default setting in NVDA? How can I turn this feature off> I just want to read the text and most of the time I care less if a text is underlined or bold. So telling me emphasized or not emphasized several times in one line or one sentence of text makes it hard to focus on the content of this line or sentence.

Any suggestion will be appreciated.

 

Regards,

 

Ibrahim

 

 


Re: web sites detecting a screen reader

Luke Robinett <blindgroupsluke@...>
 

It’s true that there may be multiple ways developers use to hide or show content to screen reader users, but the most widely accepted method is to use media queries in your style sheets. The details of this are well beyond the scope of this discussion but basically you can tell the browser to display things differently based on whether it’s a screen, a printer, a screen reader or some other output device. So theoretically I could write one style sheet for a typical computer display and an entirely different style sheet if the page is being consumed by a screen reader

On Oct 22, 2020, at 12:42 PM, Gene <gsasner@gmail.com> wrote:

Isn't whether NVDA allows a flag to be used a universal setting that occurs on loading the screen-reader? I'm not sure if it can be implemented in one application.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: Luke Robinett
Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2020 2:10 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] web sites detecting a screen reader


It’s all about personal preference. I don’t use those navigation links either but some might. The best solution is to create different NVDA configuration profiles and then switch between them as needed, based on particular sites. Currently we can only configure profiles to automatically load based on applications, not websites. It would be cool if this automatic functionality could eventually be extended to websites.

On Oct 22, 2020, at 11:10 AM, Brian Vogel <britechguy@gmail.com> wrote:



Hope,

As the old sayings go, "Different strokes for different folks," and, "Each according to his or her own taste."

That being said, I agree with Mr. Robinett that anyone needs to think long and hard before setting a flag on your screen reader to ignore accessibility-focused features in websites. It often ends up being a "throwing the baby out with the bathwater" sort of affair.
--


Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041

It’s hard waking up and realizing it’s not always black and white.

~ Kelley Boorn










Re: NVDA Settings Documentation

Gene
 

If the app uses browse mode, use page layout means that a page will be formatted more the way a sighted user would see it. The one instance I am aware of is that if you don't use page layout, more than one link may be shown on a line or I believe a link may be on the same line as nonlink text. I don't use page layout because I want links each to be on their own lines.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Robert Logue
Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2020 5:34 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA Settings Documentation

This is so helpful. I've wondered about these settings for a while but didn't look at the documentation.

I just tried setting the line length to 40 which actually is helpful in this web mail web app.

Now I'm curious how the line and page length settings are effected by use page layout...

Thanks Gene.


Bob

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene" <gsasner@gmail.com>
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Sent: Monday, October 19, 2020 6:03:12 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA Settings Documentation

It might be a good idea to add that when moving by line in a web page
looking for something, the user might want to make the lines shorter so that
you don't have to listen to long lines of text to make sure you haven't
missed the information when you move to another line.


Re: NVDA Settings Documentation

Gene
 

The item is identified as maximum line length. It means that a line longer than the maximum number of carachters the function is set for will begin a new line at about the point of the maximum letters. If a line is shorter, it will be unaffected. Since words are not broken, this will mean the the maximum line length isn't exact. But note carefully that we are talking about a browse mode setting.

Web pages usually don't have line breaks. So you are telling the screen-reader how long to make the maxsimum line. there is a default setting, of course, but I can think of a circumstance where I might want to change it. I discussed this before as a means of skimming by line more efficiently by having shorter lines.

An interesting question is whether this setting is used in Microsoft Word if you turn on browse mode. As I understand it, you can use browse mode in a word document to do some things more efficiently than if you are just working with the document directly. Does browse mode in word break lines where soft returns are in a document or at a setting like maximum line length?

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Dave Grossoehme
Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2020 5:06 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA Settings Documentation



Good Day: What happens if there is a shorter line than normal in the middle of your text somewhere, or if the page has a horizontal line to divide the text? I think there is more to this than what the first idea came out to be. That's why you need to identifiy everything. That's why my programming instructors pointed out in more detail, than I can ever express.

Dave




On 10/20/2020 8:53 AM, Brian Vogel wrote:
On Mon, Oct 19, 2020 at 10:32 PM, Gene wrote:
I would compare it to Word Wrap in Notepad except that you define the number of characters before the wrap occurs.-
Gene, that is a good analogy. But what I want to know is what "reading command context(s)" this has an effect on. I'm imagining only line-by-line reading, but . . .

Having something under the setting such as, "If a document has a line longer than the number of characters you set, for line reading it will be split into multiple virtual lines of the maximum length you specify."

I also wonder if it's intelligent as far as splitting at word boundaries, not hard and fast character counts. Mid-word splits would make things potentially very ugly.

That setting, naked as it is, is not something that's intuitive, clearly, just based on this topic. And I'm not saying that you're arguing that it is, just restating the need for some context regarding settings where the effect of same is in no way immediately obvious to the uninitiated (and even the initiated, much later on).

--


Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041

It’s hard waking up and realizing it’s not always black and white.

~ Kelley Boorn


Re: NVDA Settings Documentation

Robert Logue
 

This is so helpful. I've wondered about these settings for a while but didn't look at the documentation.

I just tried setting the line length to 40 which actually is helpful in this web mail web app.

Now I'm curious how the line and page length settings are effected by use page layout...

Thanks Gene.


Bob

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene" <gsasner@gmail.com>
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Sent: Monday, October 19, 2020 6:03:12 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA Settings Documentation

It might be a good idea to add that when moving by line in a web page
looking for something, the user might want to make the lines shorter so that
you don't have to listen to long lines of text to make sure you haven't
missed the information when you move to another line.


locked Re: well, I guess I shouldn't have expected much

 

All,

          I think it's clear that this topic has run its course (and I've been as guilty as anyone as far as topic drift goes).  It no longer really has any connection at all to the stated purpose of this group:  The central purpose of this group is discussing how to use NVDA.  This includes configuring NVDA's settings or familiarizing oneself with its modes and commands.  Discussions about which programs are accessible using NVDA, NVDA add-ons, NVDA tutorials and documentation, and configuring synthesizers or Braille displays for use with NVDA are also permitted. 

           I am asking everyone to take any ongoing discussion of email client choices, etc., to the Chat Subgroup or elsewhere.  Here, again, are the pertinent addresses for the Chat Subgroup:

 
 
To unsubscribe:  chat+unsubscribe@nvda.groups.io 
 
To receive a message containing the group description, and a list of these commands:  chat+help@nvda.groups.io 
 
To stop receiving messages via email (you may still read messages on the Web):  chat+nomail@nvda.groups.io 
This can also be used to put a vacation stop on group messages, then use one of the addresses below to resume delivery in the format of your choice.
 
To receive each group messages individually:  chat+single@nvda.groups.io 
This is the default delivery format when you initially subscribe unless you send a message to one of the addresses that follows to change it.  You can change delivery format at will by sending a message to any one of the delivery format addresses.
 
To receive group messages in an HTML formatted digest:  chat+fulldigest@nvda.groups.io 
 
To receive group messages in a plain text digest:  chat+digest@nvda.groups.io 
 
To receive a daily summary instead of individual messages:  chat+summary@nvda.groups.io 
 
To receive only special messages:  chat+special@nvda.groups.io 
  
To contact the group owner(s):  chat+owner@nvda.groups.io 

This topic is now locked.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

It’s hard waking up and realizing it’s not always black and white.

     ~ Kelley Boorn

 


locked Re: well, I guess I shouldn't have expected much

Mary Otten
 

Wow. I can’t stand the Windows 10 email app. I find it inefficient at Cetera. Thunderbird all the way for me. Different strokes. I’m really not having any problem with Thunderbird and NVDA. No sluggishness etc. It works great here.



On Oct 22, 2020, at 3:21 PM, David Moore <jesusloves1966@...> wrote:



The mail app for Windows 10 works beautifully! I work with a thousand emails per day between three accounts! I wrote a tutorial for the mail app that I can send you! David Moore


On Thu, Oct 22, 2020, 9:06 AM John Sanfilippo <johnsanfilippo@...> wrote:
Hi, which PC app do you like for mail. I'm watching out for something to replace Thunderbird. Thanks.

John Sanfilippo


locked Re: well, I guess I shouldn't have expected much

David Moore
 

The mail app for Windows 10 works beautifully! I work with a thousand emails per day between three accounts! I wrote a tutorial for the mail app that I can send you! David Moore


On Thu, Oct 22, 2020, 9:06 AM John Sanfilippo <johnsanfilippo@...> wrote:
Hi, which PC app do you like for mail. I'm watching out for something to replace Thunderbird. Thanks.

John Sanfilippo


Re: NVDA Settings Documentation

 

Hi,
As for that, I'm not sure.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Dave Grossoehme
Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2020 3:16 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA Settings Documentation

Joseph: Does that account for compound and/or hyphenized words?

Dave


On 10/20/2020 9:48 AM, Joseph Lee wrote:
Hi,
Had to dig into C++ part of NvDA to figure this out:
This setting sets browse mode line length, so yes, it applies to when reading by line. Specifically, based on what I can tell, it will do its best to break at word boundaries. This is one of the reasons why links can "span" across multiple lines in browse mode.
In terms of documenting this, one way to improve this is taking Brian's suggestions into account: expand that section and give practical examples, like the following:

This field sets the maximum length of a line in browse mode (in characters) for reading by line purposes.
Unlike documents in programs such as Word and Notepad, browse mode documents do not have a specific line length or a new line character to denote ends of lines.
Because of this, you can set arbitrary line lengths between 10 and 250 characters, and NVDA will try to split lines at word boundaries.
A side effect of this setting is that links and other elements will be split onto multiple browse mode lines.

I'm sure we can make it better, but at least the one I wrote above might be a useful starting point and captures the discussion so far.
Cheers,
Joseph



-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 2020 9:23 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA Settings Documentation

We'll see what others say but I know it applies to moving by lines. If I do something else that causes a line to be read, such as move by screen, with page up or down, or move to beginning or end of a document or tab, I would think it would apply in all those contexts, but we'll see what others say.

The intelligent question is a very interesting one and One I haven't thought of. Based on my experience, I don't recall ever having words split when I read in browse mode and the document has no such splitting, I think it is intelligent.

Just how much of such discussions should be in the user guide depends on what the purpose of the guide is. Perhaps some of these stipulations should be in some sort of document for developers or a wiki rather than in a user guide.

I wonder if this or that effect of a command my not be considered when discussing it by those who really know details. A wiki might be a good way to address this. I just found this very interesting discrepancy:
If I set the line length to a short amount, moving using k to move by link will cause an entire link to be read, no matter how long. Moving by arrow or tab and shift tab, will cause the line length stipulated to be read with more of the link being read as I move in the link. Its an interesting discrepancy and one I wonder if those knowledgeable in the matter have given any thought about as to implementation and what is desirable.

Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 2020 10:53 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA Settings Documentation

On Mon, Oct 19, 2020 at 10:32 PM, Gene wrote:
I would compare it to Word Wrap in Notepad except that you define the number of characters before the wrap occurs.- Gene, that is a good analogy. But what I want to know is what "reading command context(s)" this has an effect on. I'm imagining only line-by-line reading, but . . .

Having something under the setting such as, "If a document has a line longer than the number of characters you set, for line reading it will be split into multiple virtual lines of the maximum length you specify."

I also wonder if it's intelligent as far as splitting at word boundaries, not hard and fast character counts. Mid-word splits would make things potentially very ugly.

That setting, naked as it is, is not something that's intuitive, clearly, just based on this topic. And I'm not saying that you're arguing that it is, just restating the need for some context regarding settings where the effect of same is in no way immediately obvious to the uninitiated (and even the initiated, much later on).


locked Re: well, I guess I shouldn't have expected much

David Goldfield
 

While I don't want to stray off of the subject of NVDA I did want to point out that there are actually two Thunderbird discussion lists out there.
The first is the Support-Thunderbird list, which is one of the many lists from Mozilla that they make available. I think that it may actually be a newsgroup and, possibly due to the news readers being used by most of the subscribers, there is quite a lot of top quoting which goes on. Still, it will give you a connection to some savvy TB users.
Groups.io also hosts a Thunderbird discussion list, which you can subscribe to via the above link.
Finally, please file any Thunderbird bugs to Bugzilla.

David Goldfield,
Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist
JAWS Certified, 2019

WWW.DavidGoldfield.org
On 10/22/2020 5:59 PM, David Goldfield wrote:

It's interesting that this topic has come up. I've been using Thunderbird for around ten years and I'm currently running it on a system that was probably build around 2007 or 2008 which I bought refurbished and TB is almost as snappy and responsive on that system as Notepad. Yet I remember a dialog that I had with someone with a much more modern system with 32 GB of RAM who reported that TB was very slow, which truly mystified me. In fact, I recently read an article describing Mozilla's plans to improve and modernize Thunderbird with responsiveness being one of the items they wanted to address. This really surprised me as I wondered what they could possibly do to improve TB's performance. Yet this tells me that TB, on some systems, does present noticeable performance issues. I wish I knew more about what those systems have in common but Mozilla is clearly asking the same question and I suspect they'll come closer to finding the answer much faster than I will.


David Goldfield,
Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist
JAWS Certified, 2019

WWW.DavidGoldfield.org
On 10/22/2020 3:35 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
On Thu, Oct 22, 2020 at 03:03 PM, Gene wrote:
It may be that on some systems, Thunderbird doesn't work correctly.
-
Oh, just based on repeated comments over time on the blind-tech-related groups about sluggishness and Tbird I am quite certain that's the case.

But what I believe, personally, is that the issue does not lie with Thunderbird itself, but something about how those systems are configured, and whatever it is seems to be in some deep, dark, non-obvious corner.  As I said in another topic earlier today, real bugs hit a huge number of users in the same way, and the sluggishness with Tbird, while not isolated to one person, is definitely isolated to a very small number.  It seems dependent on the machine it's being run on.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

It’s hard waking up and realizing it’s not always black and white.

     ~ Kelley Boorn

 




Re: NVDA Settings Documentation

Dave Grossoehme
 

Joseph:  Does that account for compound and/or hyphenized words?

Dave

On 10/20/2020 9:48 AM, Joseph Lee wrote:
Hi,
Had to dig into C++ part of NvDA to figure this out:
This setting sets browse mode line length, so yes, it applies to when reading by line. Specifically, based on what I can tell, it will do its best to break at word boundaries. This is one of the reasons why links can "span" across multiple lines in browse mode.
In terms of documenting this, one way to improve this is taking Brian's suggestions into account: expand that section and give practical examples, like the following:

This field sets the maximum length of a line in browse mode (in characters) for reading by line purposes.
Unlike documents in programs such as Word and Notepad, browse mode documents do not have a specific line length or a new line character to denote ends of lines.
Because of this, you can set arbitrary line lengths between 10 and 250 characters, and NVDA will try to split lines at word boundaries.
A side effect of this setting is that links and other elements will be split onto multiple browse mode lines.

I'm sure we can make it better, but at least the one I wrote above might be a useful starting point and captures the discussion so far.
Cheers,
Joseph



-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 2020 9:23 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA Settings Documentation

We'll see what others say but I know it applies to moving by lines. If I do something else that causes a line to be read, such as move by screen, with page up or down, or move to beginning or end of a document or tab, I would think it would apply in all those contexts, but we'll see what others say.

The intelligent question is a very interesting one and One I haven't thought of. Based on my experience, I don't recall ever having words split when I read in browse mode and the document has no such splitting, I think it is intelligent.

Just how much of such discussions should be in the user guide depends on what the purpose of the guide is. Perhaps some of these stipulations should be in some sort of document for developers or a wiki rather than in a user guide.

I wonder if this or that effect of a command my not be considered when discussing it by those who really know details. A wiki might be a good way to address this. I just found this very interesting discrepancy:
If I set the line length to a short amount, moving using k to move by link will cause an entire link to be read, no matter how long. Moving by arrow or tab and shift tab, will cause the line length stipulated to be read with more of the link being read as I move in the link. Its an interesting discrepancy and one I wonder if those knowledgeable in the matter have given any thought about as to implementation and what is desirable.

Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 2020 10:53 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA Settings Documentation

On Mon, Oct 19, 2020 at 10:32 PM, Gene wrote:
I would compare it to Word Wrap in Notepad except that you define the number of characters before the wrap occurs.- Gene, that is a good analogy. But what I want to know is what "reading command context(s)" this has an effect on. I'm imagining only line-by-line reading, but . . .

Having something under the setting such as, "If a document has a line longer than the number of characters you set, for line reading it will be split into multiple virtual lines of the maximum length you specify."

I also wonder if it's intelligent as far as splitting at word boundaries, not hard and fast character counts. Mid-word splits would make things potentially very ugly.

That setting, naked as it is, is not something that's intuitive, clearly, just based on this topic. And I'm not saying that you're arguing that it is, just restating the need for some context regarding settings where the effect of same is in no way immediately obvious to the uninitiated (and even the initiated, much later on).


Re: NVDA Settings Documentation

 

On Thu, Oct 22, 2020 at 06:06 PM, Dave Grossoehme wrote:
That's why my programming instructors pointed out in more detail, than I can ever express.
-
A) You are making this way more complicated than it actually is.
B) Descriptions are not meant to be exhaustive, but illustrative.  You do not attempt to put every condition handled gracefully by a piece of software in the user documentation or settings panels.  There is a balance to be struck, and if it's a choice between "short and sweet" or "long and hard to comprehend" the former is the correct choice for end user documentation in every instance.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

It’s hard waking up and realizing it’s not always black and white.

     ~ Kelley Boorn

 


Re: NVDA Settings Documentation

Dave Grossoehme
 

Good Day:  What happens if there is a shorter line than normal in the middle of your text somewhere, or if the page has a horizontal line to divide the text?  I think there is more to this than what the first idea came out to be.  That's why you need to identifiy everything.  That's why my programming instructors pointed out in more detail, than I can ever express.

Dave


On 10/20/2020 8:53 AM, Brian Vogel wrote:
On Mon, Oct 19, 2020 at 10:32 PM, Gene wrote:
I would compare it to Word Wrap in Notepad except that you define the number of characters before the wrap occurs.
-
Gene, that is a good analogy.  But what I want to know is what "reading command context(s)" this has an effect on.  I'm imagining only line-by-line reading, but . . .

Having something under the setting such as, "If a document has a line longer than the number of characters you set, for line reading it will be split into multiple virtual lines of the maximum length you specify."

I also wonder if it's intelligent as far as splitting at word boundaries, not hard and fast character counts.  Mid-word splits would make things potentially very ugly.

That setting, naked as it is, is not something that's intuitive, clearly, just based on this topic.  And I'm not saying that you're arguing that it is, just restating the need for some context regarding settings where the effect of same is in no way immediately obvious to the uninitiated (and even the initiated, much later on).
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

It’s hard waking up and realizing it’s not always black and white.

     ~ Kelley Boorn

 


locked Re: well, I guess I shouldn't have expected much

David Goldfield
 

It's interesting that this topic has come up. I've been using Thunderbird for around ten years and I'm currently running it on a system that was probably build around 2007 or 2008 which I bought refurbished and TB is almost as snappy and responsive on that system as Notepad. Yet I remember a dialog that I had with someone with a much more modern system with 32 GB of RAM who reported that TB was very slow, which truly mystified me. In fact, I recently read an article describing Mozilla's plans to improve and modernize Thunderbird with responsiveness being one of the items they wanted to address. This really surprised me as I wondered what they could possibly do to improve TB's performance. Yet this tells me that TB, on some systems, does present noticeable performance issues. I wish I knew more about what those systems have in common but Mozilla is clearly asking the same question and I suspect they'll come closer to finding the answer much faster than I will.


David Goldfield,
Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist
JAWS Certified, 2019

WWW.DavidGoldfield.org
On 10/22/2020 3:35 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:

On Thu, Oct 22, 2020 at 03:03 PM, Gene wrote:
It may be that on some systems, Thunderbird doesn't work correctly.
-
Oh, just based on repeated comments over time on the blind-tech-related groups about sluggishness and Tbird I am quite certain that's the case.

But what I believe, personally, is that the issue does not lie with Thunderbird itself, but something about how those systems are configured, and whatever it is seems to be in some deep, dark, non-obvious corner.  As I said in another topic earlier today, real bugs hit a huge number of users in the same way, and the sluggishness with Tbird, while not isolated to one person, is definitely isolated to a very small number.  It seems dependent on the machine it's being run on.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

It’s hard waking up and realizing it’s not always black and white.

     ~ Kelley Boorn

 



Re: NVDA Settings Documentation

Dave Grossoehme
 

Good Day:  My first thought is if you wish to have a block of text stand out, and you want it to spand out to the left, right, or both left and right, but still be centered.  There could be other times for this for a block of text, but getting in to the different options which might even get into different programming coding layouts.

Dave


On 10/20/2020 1:44 AM, Pranav Lal wrote:

Hi all,

<snip I guess when working out where best to add information, what would you suggest needs adding?  That seems to describe the feature to me, but maybe I am too familiar with it to see what is missing?

PL] When would I want to alter this setting?

 

Pranav

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