Date   

Re: Using the NVDA Dictionaries to Alter Pronunciations

Jeff Samco
 

When I use Code Factory's Eloquence I get the same result as Robert. When I switch to a OneCore voice I get the correct pronunciation. I think Eloquence has some built-in substitutions That takes the Mar of Mark and reads it as the month of March and tries to render the entire string as a date. I have noticed the 3-letter string of Dec, when occuring as the first part of a word, can be spoken as December. I have checked my extensive pronunciation dictionary and find nothing that might be triggering this from that aspect.

Jeff


At 03:59 PM 12/17/2020, you wrote:
Do you have any speech dictionary entries?

For me, using eSpeak-NG, OneCore Voices or SAPI 5, I get "Zero Two Mark" for both, and for the second, at higher punctuation level I get Zero Two Line Mark".

On Thu, Dec 17, 2020 at 9:46 PM Robert Doc Wright godfearer <godfearer@...> wrote:
any time I have the folowing:
02 Mark
02_Mark
NVDA pronounces it MarchTwonk.
What can I do to get it to say 02 Mark?Â
*********
family Times weekly Movie times
Â

go to Doc's Stream
http://stream.wrighthere.net:8000/stream.mp3
Ask Miss A to play family times on tuneIn
You can also find family times on OoTunes.
Â
Get the stream guide:
http://www.wrighthere.net/FamilyTimes/playingnow.html
********
Â

walking in VictoryI welcome all that are interested in joining our devotionals on Monday thru saturdays at 8am EST. join the devotion channel.
Also, there is a weekly bible study at 8pm EST in the Walking with Jesus channel.
Â

Add the following information in your TeamTalk
host address: wiv.wrighthere.net
TCP/UDP ports: 10333
Â
entry name: walking in Victory
tab twice and press space on Add/update
Â
or
https://www.dropbox.com/s/zfa8s6ragw0yltb/WalkingInVictory.tt?dl=1



--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

Web:Â www.nvaccess.orgÂ
Training:Â https://www.nvaccess.org/shop/
Certification:Â https://certification.nvaccess.org/
User group:Â https://nvda.groups.io/g/nvda
Facebook:Â http://www.facebook.com/NVAccessÂ
Twitter: @NVAccess


Re: Outlook 365: Issue with announcement of selected text while composing mail

Luke Robinett <blindgroupsluke@...>
 

Hi Pranav,

Unfortunately no. This happens on both my work laptop and home desktop and it’s 100% reproducible in my case. I’ve been busy so I haven’t had a chance to fetch those additional details Quinton asked for. Might need to wait until the weekend. Not a showstopping issue by any means but certainly strange and annoying. Thanks for the response :)

On Dec 16, 2020, at 6:06 PM, Pranav Lal <pranav.lal@...> wrote:



Luke,

 

Does the problem go away if you restart nvda?

 

I have had this happen to me on my work laptop but it is not reproducable.

Pranav


Re: Using the NVDA Dictionaries to Alter Pronunciations

Quentin Christensen
 

Do you have any speech dictionary entries?

For me, using eSpeak-NG, OneCore Voices or SAPI 5, I get "Zero Two Mark" for both, and for the second, at higher punctuation level I get Zero Two Line Mark".

On Thu, Dec 17, 2020 at 9:46 PM Robert Doc Wright godfearer <godfearer@...> wrote:
any time I have the folowing:
02 Mark
02_Mark
NVDA pronounces it MarchTwonk.
What can I do to get it to say 02 Mark? 
*********
family Times weekly Movie times
 

go to Doc's Stream
http://stream.wrighthere.net:8000/stream.mp3
Ask Miss A to play family times on tuneIn
You can also find family times on OoTunes.
 
 

walking in VictoryI welcome all that are interested in joining our devotionals on Monday thru saturdays at 8am EST. join the devotion channel.
Also, there is a weekly bible study at 8pm EST in the Walking with Jesus channel.
 

Add the following information in your TeamTalk
host address: wiv.wrighthere.net
TCP/UDP ports: 10333
 
entry name: walking in Victory
tab twice and press space on Add/update
 



--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager


The last In-Process for the year is out

Quentin Christensen
 

Hi everyone,

The last In-Process blog post for the year is up! Want to know what's coming in NVDA 2020.4? It's there! What's "Skim reading"? - it's in the blog! NV Access Christmas trading hours? All covered! There's even a spiffy NV Access Christmas tree! :) https://www.nvaccess.org/post/in-process-18th-december-2020/

Please do keep wearing masks, social distancing, handwashing, and if there are Covid cases in your area, just stay home!  Have a happy, safe and holy Christmas and new year, and I look forward to engaging with everyone in 2021!

Kind regards

Quentin.
--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager


Re: How is verbosity decided

 

Agreed.

However we have addons, and no we shouldn't need all and don't need all.

I have what I want.

But you are right, having an everything thing is not good either.



On 18/12/2020 9:47 am, Brian Vogel wrote:
On Thu, Dec 17, 2020 at 02:30 PM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:

On 17 Dec 2020, at 10:42, g melconian wrote:

All, I think the best approach , is giving   the user choice and letting the  user customize what they see fit for their use case an work flow situations.  

I agree to a point, however won't that introduce a bloated situation ? I agree, but if we had the choice for 100 percent of things, I personally would not like it as there is just too much to take notes on etc. and the documentation would become way too much for any one person to handle.

-
But if you've ever looked at the settings for the JAWS screen reader, you will see that there are choices for many, many, many things.  There are also for NVDA, Windows 10, iOS, Android, etc.

No user likely ever even attempts to change well above 90% of what comes as default on any operating system or piece of software, but having the ability to do so if one so desires is built in to a huge number of complex systems.

No user is ever asked to make 100% of the choices, either, as that's the entire purpose of having defaults set.  I doubt anyone would ever have made it to day one of actual use with NVDA, JAWS, Windows, etc., if at the outset during setup you as the end user were require to make every single choice of configuration that the software allows.  It could take days, literally, for some software.

Defaults must be chosen.  Defaults are chosen.  Defaults will not be to every individual user's satisfaction.  Them's the facts, and it's never, ever going to be any different, because it can't be different.  And that's why I find this whole discussion exhausting, as I would think that each and every member of this group has been around computers and software long enough to understand why the first three sentences of this paragraph are axiomatic.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next.  We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

        ~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner 

 


Re: Using the NVDA Dictionaries to Alter Pronunciations

 

Robert,

           Please use the pattern string that is in the downloadable instructions:  \s?0?2[ _]Mark\s

           I changed it such that if what you want pronounced as, "oh two Mark," were to occur as the very first part of the any line, it would still match.  A single question mark character makes all the difference between not matching and matching at the start of a line.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next.  We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

        ~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner 

 


Re: How is verbosity decided

 
Edited

On Thu, Dec 17, 2020 at 04:41 PM, g melconian wrote:
So that is not a true statement that 90% don’t change  settings or customizations . 
-
Not what I said.  What I said was, "in the real world 90% of your existing users change certain somethings."

Note clearly, I said 90% change certain somethings.  What those somethings are vary, and they are seldom anything near to all the hundreds to thousands of settings some complex software has.

I'd actually say I was wrong if you consider what I said to mean only 90%.  Certainly not what was intended, as I'd say it's very, very close to 100% of users who tweak something about one or more pieces of software that they use. 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next.  We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

        ~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner 

 


Re: How is verbosity decided

Gene
 

We have heard from perhaps four or five people in this discussion, stating preferences. That's not representative. So that doesn't mean anything about what people like or want. I have stated certain things that I think would be good to change such as the bloc quote setting and you may disagree but it is not unreasonable to keep a well thought out opinion. Disagreement is not necessarily rigidity.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2020 3:02 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How is verbosity decided

On Thu, Dec 17, 2020 at 11:42 AM, Gene wrote:
Just because I don't agree doesn't mean I am unreasonable.-
Indeed. And it has nothing to do with why I believe you are unreasonable. And my reasons for believing so have been clearly articulated. You are rigid, and have demonstrated this again and again. I can't count how many people, other than myself, have been trying to shake you out of this rigidity on this topic alone. You just will not listen, no matter how many times you say, "I'm willing to consider other viewpoints," you demonstrate that you will not do so in the vast majority of cases.

Most of your contributions to this topic blithely ignore anything that's in opposition to your own initial opinion that have come in as it's progressed. This is pattern, and not isolated to this topic.

You are a clearly very, very intelligent person. You are someone who also thinks deeply about a wide array of topics. But you are rigid once you have reached your own conclusion, even when floods of counterpoints are presented. That is what makes you unreasonable.

--


Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:] Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next. We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner


Re: How TO Use Windows 10 OCR

 

Actually that person was me, the issue is at https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/11911.

Kind regards/Vriendelijke groet,
Artin Dekker
groepen@...
Op 17-12-2020 om 18:02 schreef Joseph Lee:

Hi,

I know that one person reported this observation on GitHub, and I think someone proposed a message to be shown when this combination is active (attempting to do an OCR while screen curtain is on).

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2020 9:00 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How TO Use Windows 10 OCR

 

On Thu, Dec 17, 2020 at 11:49 AM, Bhavya shah wrote:

Just wondering: is Windows 10 OCR not working when screen curtain is enabled a known and documented issue, and if so, is it something that can be possibly fixed?

-
This was a great catch on Artin's part!  It is not documented in the User Guide, and really should be.

My guess, and that's all it is, is that this is not fixable if what the OCR does is, for all practical intents and purposes, scan the screen display buffer as though it were an image.  Using screen curtain functions keeps that buffer constantly "blanked," so there would be nothing to scan.  It's a Catch-22.  I'll be curious to see if my guess has any connection to reality, and there are a couple of regulars here who can likely confirm or refute off the top of their heads.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next.  We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

        ~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner 

 


Re: How is verbosity decided

g melconian <gmelconian619@...>
 

Bryan, thast strange. most users tend to change things as  they get mor familiar with a particular software or operating system or mobile platform. I have change at least 80% of my settings  and have customized my devices whether that  be my Windows pc, my chrome book, my android tv box, my android devices and etc.  So that is not a true statement that 90 % don’t change  settings or customizations . 


Re: How is verbosity decided

g melconian <gmelconian619@...>
 

Thanks bryan for the info.  

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2020 12:56 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How is verbosity decided

 

On Thu, Dec 17, 2020 at 01:21 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:

because what Brian wanted to communicate (if I'm understanding his messages correctly) is that we (developers and users) should not mess with users minds. Habit is a strong force, and first impressions and experiences matter.

-
Precisely.  And even I will admit that what any given development team may have chosen as its defaults often drives me to drink.  But once I know what those are, and have been for long periods of time, I know on every fresh setup of a given piece of software (including operating systems) what my list of tweaks is, and can apply it reliably and without much thought after the initial thought that went into it.

I also just don't get why anyone cannot acknowledge the simple fact that one size fits all means, in reality, that one size fits none, and that tailoring is necessary.  It does not matter one bit what any given piece of software is configured like in its "out of the box" state.  Someone is going to hate all or part of whatever choices have been made.  Choosing defaults is a nontrivial exercise and, for those doing the choosing, a "Damned if you do, damned if you don't," situation in many cases.  And once you've picked 'em, you tend to keep 'em so you don't mess with people's heads, even if in the real world 90% of your existing users change certain somethings.  It's absolutely not a case of foolish consistency being the hobgoblin of little minds.  Precedent means something, and even bad but predictable precedent in your software allows you to keep your sanity over time.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next.  We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

        ~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner 

 


Re: How is verbosity decided

 

On Thu, Dec 17, 2020 at 11:42 AM, Gene wrote:
Just because I don't agree doesn't mean I am unreasonable.
-
Indeed.  And it has nothing to do with why I believe you are unreasonable.  And my reasons for believing so have been clearly articulated.  You are rigid, and have demonstrated this again and again.  I can't count how many people, other than myself, have been trying to shake you out of this rigidity on this topic alone.  You just will not listen, no matter how many times you say, "I'm willing to consider other viewpoints," you demonstrate that you will not do so in the vast majority of cases.

Most of your contributions to this topic blithely ignore anything that's in opposition to your own initial opinion that have come in as it's progressed.  This is pattern, and not isolated to this topic.

You are a clearly very, very intelligent person.  You are someone who also thinks deeply about a wide array of topics.  But you are rigid once you have reached your own conclusion, even when floods of counterpoints are presented.  That is what makes you unreasonable.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next.  We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

        ~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner 

 


Re: How is verbosity decided

 

On Thu, Dec 17, 2020 at 01:21 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:
because what Brian wanted to communicate (if I'm understanding his messages correctly) is that we (developers and users) should not mess with users minds. Habit is a strong force, and first impressions and experiences matter.
-
Precisely.  And even I will admit that what any given development team may have chosen as its defaults often drives me to drink.  But once I know what those are, and have been for long periods of time, I know on every fresh setup of a given piece of software (including operating systems) what my list of tweaks is, and can apply it reliably and without much thought after the initial thought that went into it.

I also just don't get why anyone cannot acknowledge the simple fact that one size fits all means, in reality, that one size fits none, and that tailoring is necessary.  It does not matter one bit what any given piece of software is configured like in its "out of the box" state.  Someone is going to hate all or part of whatever choices have been made.  Choosing defaults is a nontrivial exercise and, for those doing the choosing, a "Damned if you do, damned if you don't," situation in many cases.  And once you've picked 'em, you tend to keep 'em so you don't mess with people's heads, even if in the real world 90% of your existing users change certain somethings.  It's absolutely not a case of foolish consistency being the hobgoblin of little minds.  Precedent means something, and even bad but predictable precedent in your software allows you to keep your sanity over time.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next.  We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

        ~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner 

 


Re: How is verbosity decided

 

On Thu, Dec 17, 2020 at 02:30 PM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:

On 17 Dec 2020, at 10:42, g melconian wrote:

All, I think the best approach , is giving   the user choice and letting the  user customize what they see fit for their use case an work flow situations.  

I agree to a point, however won't that introduce a bloated situation ? I agree, but if we had the choice for 100 percent of things, I personally would not like it as there is just too much to take notes on etc. and the documentation would become way too much for any one person to handle.

-
But if you've ever looked at the settings for the JAWS screen reader, you will see that there are choices for many, many, many things.  There are also for NVDA, Windows 10, iOS, Android, etc.

No user likely ever even attempts to change well above 90% of what comes as default on any operating system or piece of software, but having the ability to do so if one so desires is built in to a huge number of complex systems.

No user is ever asked to make 100% of the choices, either, as that's the entire purpose of having defaults set.  I doubt anyone would ever have made it to day one of actual use with NVDA, JAWS, Windows, etc., if at the outset during setup you as the end user were require to make every single choice of configuration that the software allows.  It could take days, literally, for some software.

Defaults must be chosen.  Defaults are chosen.  Defaults will not be to every individual user's satisfaction.  Them's the facts, and it's never, ever going to be any different, because it can't be different.  And that's why I find this whole discussion exhausting, as I would think that each and every member of this group has been around computers and software long enough to understand why the first three sentences of this paragraph are axiomatic.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next.  We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

        ~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner 

 


Re: How is verbosity decided

 

Well having used other readers, compaired to all of them nvda is the best one for the modern web enabled interfaces of today.

Its fast and will run on whatever, its got a massive posibility of programs and extra modules, and while these can be dangerous to if not done right, the community is solid.

Jaws, is big and for companies.

But its been the same bloated feature rich software since year 0.

Having used it, like nvda I haven't needed extra stuff as such.

For me nvda is like a modern os with drivers for commen things and the rest you need to find.

I'd compair jaws to what windows 98 and earlier was like.

You needed drivers or in this case scripts for everything else it wouldn't work at all without them.

And modules cost a lot.

Since nvda uses a native scripting language allready in production, if mastered you can master everything from its modules to its core code to stuff in between.

There is even the ability to run developmental code from a scratchpad.

You can even run code internally from the internal python console if you want but obviously you won't be able to save it.

The oldest reader I have was and still is supernova.

dolphin are trying to improve but yeah it depends what you want.

It also depends what you use and what businesses will use.

If you run a lot of older non web programs, supernova is good at this.

If you want to run a lot of programs, especially for work and need extra enhanced and advanced programs over simple office and maybe other things then jaws is your baby.

If you just want to run the web and web enabled interfaces in general then thats nvda's strong point.

Nvda does not run with a lot of older stuff nicely but then the modern way is via a web interface, even thunderbird has some web elements in it.

On 18/12/2020 8:11 am, Bob Cavanaugh wrote:
Although I've stayed out of this discussion until now, I'll jump in
here. There's a reason NVDA is #2 in screen reader usage, a lot of
people see it as an alternative to JAWS. I personally have never been
able to afford JAWS, but now that I'm going to be using NVDA more
frequently and I have some money of my own, I'm considering becoming a
monthly doner. There are a few things I would like to say about
verbosity having come from mainly using System Access, this week being
the first in a long time that I haven't used it at all.
1. I find the verbosity of JAWS annoying at times. I don't need to
know that I pressed enter or tab when I am moving through items, or
every little thing in parenthesies. It is here I think NVDA does a
very good job.
2. I suspect that as landmarks become more common, they are going to
become a major source of navigation. For me, I came in about when they
were first appearing, and while System Access acknowledged a main by
starting to read from it, there was no way to navigate by them,
causing me to never get into the habit of using them.
3. Overall, I think the developers of NVDA have done a good job, and
while I've learned a lot from this list about configuration profiles,
I think there's one default that should be changed, as whenever I
install a new copy of NVDA, I can never remember what setting to
change. I think it's unchecking screen layout, but I'm not sure. It's
a setting that, when on by default, gives all the links in a row or in
context when using your arrow keys, rather than displaying them one at
a time. NVDA is the only screen reader I know of that displays links
in a big group like that by default. That being said, there are
programs that NVDA reads that don't read well in other screen readers,
and I appreciate that.

On 12/17/20, Shaun Everiss <sm.everiss@gmail.com> wrote:
I agree.

I like my settings as they are.

My biggest issue is with clickables, its bad coding on web pages I know
this but clickable all over the place, its one of the first thing I turn
off.

The other is screen layout because things seem to work better for me
without it.

I have also turned off column and table announcement because when I
brouse an ftp on the web I don't want to hear item 1052 of 85232 or
something like that when brousing an ftp server via the web.

Maybe we should have some conditions set for that when say brousing ftp
or other web directories when the user really doesn't want or need a
table or columns.

Luckily for me thats not a problem turning all the tables, rows and
columns off because I don't use office, but maybe there needs to be a
seperation between tables rows and columns for documents and for say the
web brouser, ie chrome, fire/waterfox, etc.

Thats probably about the only issue that really gets me right now.

I have also noticed that some settings, in context like emphasis font
change, etc may have had their origin in a certain situation, but
applying those settings in say a general web or standard every day
desktop navigation task just doesn't make sence.

In certain web apps and this is the tricky part some of all that may be
usefull but general web stuff well.

Another thing is that we should be able to export our configuration
profiles or have a way like addons where we can create a profile, upload
it somewhere and have a way to download it.

There are plenty of users on here and a lot of us have plenty of profiles.

I have a couple but I don't as a rule need to use profiles for my day to
day task.

I do a lot of admin work, testing work, etc.

If things get bad and from time to time they may, it may be necessary to
reinstall my device or the device I am working on and while I try to
avoid doing that, I can never be bothered at least for a while
recreating my profiles again so while I may have done it in the past I
have found unless I need to I don't bother now.



On 18/12/2020 4:27 am, Gene wrote:
We've heard from a few people saying they like this or that setting as
it is. I think it might be of real benefit to take a survey to
determine what most people, at least if enough respond, want.  It has
been traditional since the very early days when all this verbosity
became possible for screen-readers to announce it.  I haven't heard of
one survey of users done to find out what they want. Whether I am
right about what people want or not, I think my point is valid.  We
don't know if the amount of verbossity is what people want or not.

Gene

-----Original Message----- From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2020 9:17 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How is verbosity decided

On Thu, Dec 17, 2020 at 02:57 AM, Gene wrote:
If ;people think I'm wrong, is there some way to survey typical users?-
Gene, even if there were a survey, you just will not accept the fact
that what you, or I, or any given individual prefers does not mean
that many others will prefer it.

You have a good point in terms of a completely new product, or
feature, sometimes, but once something has been in wide release like
NVDA has, changing what have been defaults for features of
longstanding becomes way more trouble than it's worth.

There is absolutely something to your point about figures announcement
in that it should be able to be turned on/off at will.  As to the rest
of your position, not so much.  You cannot seem to take on the
information that multiple users have presented here that your opinion,
and desires, do not match theirs.  As a result, what you see fit to
have turned on/off by default is incongruent with what they would have
turned on/off by default.

In the end, and not just for screen readers, it is the absolute
obligation of the end user to seek assistance in customizing things to
their liking. No one at any software development house can ever create
something that makes everybody happy, and particularly as far as what
setting ship as default out of the box.  The tools exist to allow
users to create their own best experience and if they're concerned
with doing that then they need to explore them, with whatever
assistance is necessary, or alone if none whatsoever is available.
This isn't a blindness-related thing in any way. It simply is, and has
always been, for any piece of software.  The more complex the software
the more true it is if you're looking to get as close to exactly what
you prefer.

If you can't, or won't, acknowledge the absolute truth of the
preceding paragraph then you cannot be reasoned with.  No excuses
about "lack of training" or similar change it.





Re: How is verbosity decided

Sarah k Alawami
 


On 17 Dec 2020, at 10:42, g melconian wrote:

All, I think the best approach , is giving   the user choice and letting the  user customize what they see fit for their use case an work flow situations.  

I agree to a point, however won't that introduce a bloated situation ? I agree, but if we had the choice for 100 percent of things, I personally would not like it as there is just too much to take notes on etc. and the documentation would become way too much for any one person to handle. Oh, and when there are updates? ...


Re: How is verbosity decided

Bob Cavanaugh <cavbob1993@...>
 

Although I've stayed out of this discussion until now, I'll jump in
here. There's a reason NVDA is #2 in screen reader usage, a lot of
people see it as an alternative to JAWS. I personally have never been
able to afford JAWS, but now that I'm going to be using NVDA more
frequently and I have some money of my own, I'm considering becoming a
monthly doner. There are a few things I would like to say about
verbosity having come from mainly using System Access, this week being
the first in a long time that I haven't used it at all.
1. I find the verbosity of JAWS annoying at times. I don't need to
know that I pressed enter or tab when I am moving through items, or
every little thing in parenthesies. It is here I think NVDA does a
very good job.
2. I suspect that as landmarks become more common, they are going to
become a major source of navigation. For me, I came in about when they
were first appearing, and while System Access acknowledged a main by
starting to read from it, there was no way to navigate by them,
causing me to never get into the habit of using them.
3. Overall, I think the developers of NVDA have done a good job, and
while I've learned a lot from this list about configuration profiles,
I think there's one default that should be changed, as whenever I
install a new copy of NVDA, I can never remember what setting to
change. I think it's unchecking screen layout, but I'm not sure. It's
a setting that, when on by default, gives all the links in a row or in
context when using your arrow keys, rather than displaying them one at
a time. NVDA is the only screen reader I know of that displays links
in a big group like that by default. That being said, there are
programs that NVDA reads that don't read well in other screen readers,
and I appreciate that.

On 12/17/20, Shaun Everiss <sm.everiss@gmail.com> wrote:
I agree.

I like my settings as they are.

My biggest issue is with clickables, its bad coding on web pages I know
this but clickable all over the place, its one of the first thing I turn
off.

The other is screen layout because things seem to work better for me
without it.

I have also turned off column and table announcement because when I
brouse an ftp on the web I don't want to hear item 1052 of 85232 or
something like that when brousing an ftp server via the web.

Maybe we should have some conditions set for that when say brousing ftp
or other web directories when the user really doesn't want or need a
table or columns.

Luckily for me thats not a problem turning all the tables, rows and
columns off because I don't use office, but maybe there needs to be a
seperation between tables rows and columns for documents and for say the
web brouser, ie chrome, fire/waterfox, etc.

Thats probably about the only issue that really gets me right now.

I have also noticed that some settings, in context like emphasis font
change, etc may have had their origin in a certain situation, but
applying those settings in say a general web or standard every day
desktop navigation task just doesn't make sence.

In certain web apps and this is the tricky part some of all that may be
usefull but general web stuff well.

Another thing is that we should be able to export our configuration
profiles or have a way like addons where we can create a profile, upload
it somewhere and have a way to download it.

There are plenty of users on here and a lot of us have plenty of profiles.

I have a couple but I don't as a rule need to use profiles for my day to
day task.

I do a lot of admin work, testing work, etc.

If things get bad and from time to time they may, it may be necessary to
reinstall my device or the device I am working on and while I try to
avoid doing that, I can never be bothered at least for a while
recreating my profiles again so while I may have done it in the past I
have found unless I need to I don't bother now.



On 18/12/2020 4:27 am, Gene wrote:
We've heard from a few people saying they like this or that setting as
it is. I think it might be of real benefit to take a survey to
determine what most people, at least if enough respond, want.  It has
been traditional since the very early days when all this verbosity
became possible for screen-readers to announce it.  I haven't heard of
one survey of users done to find out what they want. Whether I am
right about what people want or not, I think my point is valid.  We
don't know if the amount of verbossity is what people want or not.

Gene

-----Original Message----- From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2020 9:17 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How is verbosity decided

On Thu, Dec 17, 2020 at 02:57 AM, Gene wrote:
If ;people think I'm wrong, is there some way to survey typical users?-
Gene, even if there were a survey, you just will not accept the fact
that what you, or I, or any given individual prefers does not mean
that many others will prefer it.

You have a good point in terms of a completely new product, or
feature, sometimes, but once something has been in wide release like
NVDA has, changing what have been defaults for features of
longstanding becomes way more trouble than it's worth.

There is absolutely something to your point about figures announcement
in that it should be able to be turned on/off at will.  As to the rest
of your position, not so much.  You cannot seem to take on the
information that multiple users have presented here that your opinion,
and desires, do not match theirs.  As a result, what you see fit to
have turned on/off by default is incongruent with what they would have
turned on/off by default.

In the end, and not just for screen readers, it is the absolute
obligation of the end user to seek assistance in customizing things to
their liking. No one at any software development house can ever create
something that makes everybody happy, and particularly as far as what
setting ship as default out of the box.  The tools exist to allow
users to create their own best experience and if they're concerned
with doing that then they need to explore them, with whatever
assistance is necessary, or alone if none whatsoever is available.
This isn't a blindness-related thing in any way. It simply is, and has
always been, for any piece of software.  The more complex the software
the more true it is if you're looking to get as close to exactly what
you prefer.

If you can't, or won't, acknowledge the absolute truth of the
preceding paragraph then you cannot be reasoned with.  No excuses
about "lack of training" or similar change it.





Re: How is verbosity decided

g melconian <gmelconian619@...>
 

All, I think the best approach , is giving   the user choice and letting the  user customize what they see fit for their use case an work flow situations. 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2020 7:17 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How is verbosity decided

 

On Thu, Dec 17, 2020 at 02:57 AM, Gene wrote:

If ;people think I'm wrong, is there some way to survey typical users?

-
Gene, even if there were a survey, you just will not accept the fact that what you, or I, or any given individual prefers does not mean that many others will prefer it.

You have a good point in terms of a completely new product, or feature, sometimes, but once something has been in wide release like NVDA has, changing what have been defaults for features of longstanding becomes way more trouble than it's worth.

There is absolutely something to your point about figures announcement in that it should be able to be turned on/off at will.  As to the rest of your position, not so much.  You cannot seem to take on the information that multiple users have presented here that your opinion, and desires, do not match theirs.  As a result, what you see fit to have turned on/off by default is incongruent with what they would have turned on/off by default.

In the end, and not just for screen readers, it is the absolute obligation of the end user to seek assistance in customizing things to their liking.  No one at any software development house can ever create something that makes everybody happy, and particularly as far as what setting ship as default out of the box.  The tools exist to allow users to create their own best experience and if they're concerned with doing that then they need to explore them, with whatever assistance is necessary, or alone if none whatsoever is available.  This isn't a blindness-related thing in any way.  It simply is, and has always been, for any piece of software.  The more complex the software the more true it is if you're looking to get as close to exactly what you prefer.

If you can't, or won't, acknowledge the absolute truth of the preceding paragraph then you cannot be reasoned with.  No excuses about "lack of training" or similar change it.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next.  We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

        ~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner 

 


Re: How is verbosity decided

 

To be honest, there shouldn't be 1 ring to rule them all but several.

Technologies are like that.

I have a laptop, I have a phone, I have a speaker.

I have a clock well at least 3 of thoes.

One time, 1 date and time, 1 alarm, time and timer, 1 recorder and everything else.

By themselves they handle a certain function.

I have several programs and at least 2 screen readers and even tts voices.

A lot of my stuff do the same thing but in a different way, some slight, some more so.

Not everything is the same.

I found this out the hard way when moving away from nero.

I had the same issue when moving away from norton, and others.

I have recently had the same issue when moving away from ocr software.

Granted what I have is an older ocr software package but it will work for me right now.

The same is with my web brouser.

The newer versions just don't work the same, I have an older version which doesn't crash.

I do have passive security tools which have worked for years and which are mostly updated and which will work for what I need.

If I need to I have edge chromium and internet explorer as backups.

I can also get chrome as well since just about everything else uses that here.

I have had bad experiences with the 1 ring thing.

I was going to get an ios device, had one, got all the material for it.

Then I had a crash, forgot about it, and was about to try again when my dad switched to an android.

He had a lot of trouble getting things over, and lost a lot of data because somethings just wouldn't move.

And I decided that I didn't want to jump into that ring anymore.

I plan to get something simple like a shell and maybe jump on the apple tab rout for everything else.

My point is that we need many things to make a hole, not everything can do everything.

My cd writing, extraction and editing programs went from 1 to 3, and one of them was payed for.

On 18/12/2020 5:43 am, Joseph Lee wrote:
Hi all,
Surveys were done to find out what people want from NVDA (look at calls by NV Access when the last survey came out a while ago).
As for the issue at hand: I think there is an unspoken, deeper issue that's giving folks headaches: perfectionism. We strive for a perfect software, a perfect productivity tool, a perfect screen reader, or a perfect "cure" for access issues to a point where we demand reality match ideals. Several people gave testimonials as to why that's not really the case, and I provided one pragmatic way of resolving verbosity issues, specifically element announcements.
One thing folks should think about is that machines are directed by humans. Technological progress such as artificial intelligence, augmented reality, and even screen reading may present an idea that machines are perfect and can do whatever they want. But behind bits, Bluetooth radios, and accessibility event handlers is humanity. World history has shown that, despite brilliant plans and inventions, humans are not perfect: sometimes making mistakes, or even leading others to suffer because of the way individuals interpret reality for their benefit. Humans are not perfect, therefore things designed by them carry this marker, and this applies to digital technology as well.
What I'm about to say is my own thought: several weeks ago I heard a comment (either from this list or somewhere) that NVDA community is saturated with perfectionism. I must say I agree with this analysis: we have become so dependent on NVDA to a point where we forget about the humanity of the community. We demand a more perfect screen reader and have forgotten to instill reflection of reality and pragmatism to our posterity. NVDA has become a god and a superhero, a troubling sign of imminent crises. Our devotion to NVDA gave birth to a "cult of productivity" that will come back to haunt the community later.
The biggest crisis the NVDA community will face and must confront in 2020's will be perfectionism and forgetting about stakeholders and their humanity. Marketing literature emphasize NVDA's benefits for users, especially first time computer users. But users are not the only stakeholders: developers, industry watchers, accessibility specs authors and implementers, and even folks outside of this community who are watching us carefully (this includes organizations such as various consumer advocacy groups, Microsoft, Mozilla, Google, and countless others). I heard anecdotes that criticized this community for focusing too much on the ideal, rather than available paths given the reality we are facing. I think this is a sign of perfectionism, specifically expecting NVDA to be the savior we've been waiting for. We must get rid of the mindset that NVDA is the perfect productivity companion. I intentionally used "the" to highlight the seriousness of this problem.
The first step to solving the overwhelming saturation of perfectionism within NVDA community is listing stakeholders and thinking about their humanity and relationships amongst them. What sustains a community is not the product, but level of trust among its members, and the first step in improving trust and relationships is recognizing who these stakeholders are. Users are not the only source of feedback for developers; they also watch market trends, and increasingly, industry specifications such as ARIA (Accessible Rich Internet Applications). But developers do not stop at reading specs and respond to user feedback: they also think about how different people and organizations interpret documentation. What makes developers both happy and angry is differing interpretations and implementations, which, at the philosophical level, shows that human beings are imperfect.
The second step, specifically for fellow developers and add-on authors, is to not put everything in version 1.0 of something. Do not put a fancy user interface in version 1 of an add-on. Release the basics in version 1, and then refine code based on subsequent feedback (this is perhaps my biggest headache I get when reviewing add-ons: attempts to satisfy the community and oneself by putting everything in version 1). In addition to recognizing other stakeholders besides users and understanding their humanity, developers must recognize that they are not gods - we are humans, therefore we are imperfect. The best we can do is listen to and learn from people.
The third step, specifically for users, is to broaden our assumptions and thought process. Users are not the only star in the universe. Just as many stars make the night sky bright, users should consider many things. As it is, one of the causes of saturated perfectionism is the "assumption cage" we locked ourselves into - trying to just apply old assumptions into new reality. It is important to learn lessons from the past and reflect them here. However, it is even more important to get away from the idea that we can just apply what worked in the past to the reality we are facing. I do know that I'm aiming the last bit at certain portion of the community who can't get rid of golden days of old screen readers and wish NVDA to emulate them. As much as old screen readers and their golden eras are great history lessons and we can learn many things from those times, NVDA is a different thing and faces its own issues. Simply put, do not apply your idea of a perfect screen reader to another entity without first checking out what you are facing; or to use terms I coined: do not become desensitized due to information blackout (that is, do not limit yourself to assumptions you already have i.e. be pragmatic at times and think beyond what you know and interact with).
I wrote the above statement both as a critique and to stir some reflection and dialogue. I know that I am an influencer, more so within the NVDA community. Although I do sing praises about NVDA, I believe it is my duty as a community member to offer suggestions and criticisms. I do know that my words do have an effect of swinging topics, therefore I weigh my words carefully. But at times, I believe honest and direct statements are better in terms of helping people confront the issues we are facing and will face in the coming years. And the whole discussion of element verbosity, and the deeper issues surrounding community saturation of perfectionism, is one of those moments where direct confrontation and philosophical pondering could be the best path forward. Please think, think carefully, and think carefully and critically again.
Hope this helps.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2020 7:28 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How is verbosity decided

We've heard from a few people saying they like this or that setting as it is. I think it might be of real benefit to take a survey to determine what most people, at least if enough respond, want. It has been traditional since the very early days when all this verbosity became possible for screen-readers to announce it. I haven't heard of one survey of users done to find out what they want. Whether I am right about what people want or not, I think my point is valid. We don't know if the amount of verbossity is what people want or not.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2020 9:17 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How is verbosity decided

On Thu, Dec 17, 2020 at 02:57 AM, Gene wrote:
If ;people think I'm wrong, is there some way to survey typical users?- Gene, even if there were a survey, you just will not accept the fact that what you, or I, or any given individual prefers does not mean that many others will prefer it.

You have a good point in terms of a completely new product, or feature, sometimes, but once something has been in wide release like NVDA has, changing what have been defaults for features of longstanding becomes way more trouble than it's worth.

There is absolutely something to your point about figures announcement in that it should be able to be turned on/off at will. As to the rest of your position, not so much. You cannot seem to take on the information that multiple users have presented here that your opinion, and desires, do not match theirs. As a result, what you see fit to have turned on/off by default is incongruent with what they would have turned on/off by default.

In the end, and not just for screen readers, it is the absolute obligation of the end user to seek assistance in customizing things to their liking.
No one at any software development house can ever create something that makes everybody happy, and particularly as far as what setting ship as default out of the box. The tools exist to allow users to create their own best experience and if they're concerned with doing that then they need to explore them, with whatever assistance is necessary, or alone if none whatsoever is available. This isn't a blindness-related thing in any way.
It simply is, and has always been, for any piece of software. The more complex the software the more true it is if you're looking to get as close to exactly what you prefer.

If you can't, or won't, acknowledge the absolute truth of the preceding paragraph then you cannot be reasoned with. No excuses about "lack of training" or similar change it.


Re: How is verbosity decided

 

I agree.

I like my settings as they are.

My biggest issue is with clickables, its bad coding on web pages I know this but clickable all over the place, its one of the first thing I turn off.

The other is screen layout because things seem to work better for me without it.

I have also turned off column and table announcement because when I brouse an ftp on the web I don't want to hear item 1052 of 85232 or something like that when brousing an ftp server via the web.

Maybe we should have some conditions set for that when say brousing ftp or other web directories when the user really doesn't want or need a table or columns.

Luckily for me thats not a problem turning all the tables, rows and columns off because I don't use office, but maybe there needs to be a seperation between tables rows and columns for documents and for say the web brouser, ie chrome, fire/waterfox, etc.

Thats probably about the only issue that really gets me right now.

I have also noticed that some settings, in context like emphasis font change, etc may have had their origin in a certain situation, but applying those settings in say a general web or standard every day desktop navigation task just doesn't make sence.

In certain web apps and this is the tricky part some of all that may be usefull but general web stuff well.

Another thing is that we should be able to export our configuration profiles or have a way like addons where we can create a profile, upload it somewhere and have a way to download it.

There are plenty of users on here and a lot of us have plenty of profiles.

I have a couple but I don't as a rule need to use profiles for my day to day task.

I do a lot of admin work, testing work, etc.

If things get bad and from time to time they may, it may be necessary to reinstall my device or the device I am working on and while I try to avoid doing that, I can never be bothered at least for a while recreating my profiles again so while I may have done it in the past I have found unless I need to I don't bother now.

On 18/12/2020 4:27 am, Gene wrote:
We've heard from a few people saying they like this or that setting as it is. I think it might be of real benefit to take a survey to determine what most people, at least if enough respond, want.  It has been traditional since the very early days when all this verbosity became possible for screen-readers to announce it.  I haven't heard of one survey of users done to find out what they want. Whether I am right about what people want or not, I think my point is valid.  We don't know if the amount of verbossity is what people want or not.

Gene

-----Original Message----- From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2020 9:17 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How is verbosity decided

On Thu, Dec 17, 2020 at 02:57 AM, Gene wrote:
If ;people think I'm wrong, is there some way to survey typical users?-
Gene, even if there were a survey, you just will not accept the fact that what you, or I, or any given individual prefers does not mean that many others will prefer it.

You have a good point in terms of a completely new product, or feature, sometimes, but once something has been in wide release like NVDA has, changing what have been defaults for features of longstanding becomes way more trouble than it's worth.

There is absolutely something to your point about figures announcement in that it should be able to be turned on/off at will.  As to the rest of your position, not so much.  You cannot seem to take on the information that multiple users have presented here that your opinion, and desires, do not match theirs.  As a result, what you see fit to have turned on/off by default is incongruent with what they would have turned on/off by default.

In the end, and not just for screen readers, it is the absolute obligation of the end user to seek assistance in customizing things to their liking. No one at any software development house can ever create something that makes everybody happy, and particularly as far as what setting ship as default out of the box.  The tools exist to allow users to create their own best experience and if they're concerned with doing that then they need to explore them, with whatever assistance is necessary, or alone if none whatsoever is available.  This isn't a blindness-related thing in any way. It simply is, and has always been, for any piece of software.  The more complex the software the more true it is if you're looking to get as close to exactly what you prefer.

If you can't, or won't, acknowledge the absolute truth of the preceding paragraph then you cannot be reasoned with.  No excuses about "lack of training" or similar change it.

6721 - 6740 of 86468