Date   

Re: Window-Eyes Tutorials and Transition

Tony Ballou
 

Howdy Gene,


Thanks much bro, I appreciate you checking in.


When I first started thinking of this idea, it went back to a chart that I had read of keyboard equivalents between jaws and window eyes some years ago.  At that time I was a full blown window eyes user, and had to learn jaws for a job.  I used that chart to make the transition easier for myself and the rest I picked up through tutorials. So I fully understand what you're saying and I think we can make this work. Lots of what you mention about setting up NVDA, working with synthesizers etc.  is on the accessibilitycentral.net website, so we really don't need to re-invent the wheel there. However, there are a few things in browse mode in window eyes that behave slightly different than NVDA. Here are a few samples that even had me saying what?

 


The List option in NVDA is l and the list item option is I.  That makes perfect sense. 



In window eyes, though the list item is I, the list command is S.


With Landmarks, in NVDA it's d and shift-d conversely in window eyes, it's semicolon and shift-semicolon which completely divert from any single letter navigation choices I've seen. I'm going to take your suggestion and try and scale things down a bit. But no more tonight, It's late here in Philadelphia, and I've gotta recharge the batteries. Thanks much man!


 


On 5/24/2017 11:43 PM, Gene wrote:

I'm not sure what you are creating.  You speak of a chart and that it is eight pages long.  Evidently, you will send it to all who request it.  I'll probably write off list and do so.  But I really don't think anything that long is needed nor desirable to provide a transition.  In my opinion, the following should be discussed not in a chart, but in a document:
How to set speech parameters including synthesizer, reading speed and punctuation, how to open the menu.  How to unload NVDA and how to run it.  A brief discussion of the talking installer.  Not much, but that you will be asked if you want to create a portable version or install the screen-reader.
Aside from that, the following commands should be briefly stated:
Read current line.  Read previous line, read next line.
Read current word, next word and previous word.  The same with characters.  the pattern may be very briefly noted.
Read title bar and that pressing the command twice quickly will spell the title bar.  Pressing it three times copies the title bar text to the clipboard.
Very little discussion of browse mode need be done.  the commands are very similar or perhaps just about identical.  It should be explained how to make each link appear on its own line.  It should be explained how to stop automatic switching between browse and function mode and how to switch to words to notify the user when he is in browse mode or focus mode. 
 
Screen review may be described but it might be better to refer the user to something like the chapter in the tutorial Joseph Lee did on the subject.  It is still available on line.  Object review as well can be referred to a chapter in the tutorial. 
A brief discussion of the NVDA users' list should be given and the syntax to join.
 
I wouldn't do anything other than what I've mentioned unless I happen to think of something that I've forgotten in this disscussion but even if I did, I would do very little more.  This document is to provide a transition, not to teach Windows nor NVDA in detail.  It's purpose is to allow Window-eyes users to be able to use NVDA and refer them to resources for teaching such things as object navigation.  If it is too long and detailed, it may discourage some people from making the transition.  The purpose is to allow basic NVDA use in as short a time and with as little to learn as possible. 
 
I should add one more thing that should be mentioned.  It should be pointed out that input help is available and that you use it in the same way as in Window-eyes.  I believe the command is the same but whether it is or not, the user should be told the following:
To go into input help, use insert 1 meaning 1 on the main keyboard.  Either insert may be used.  An example of use may be given.  When in browse mode, for example, every browse mode letter such as h for heading, b for button, etc. will name the command when pressed.  the user may, if he/she wishes, push every letter of the alphabet to see what the quick navigation commands are.  they are almost identical to Windo-eyes but this will allow the user to be aware of any differences in an engaged and interactive, not a passive way. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2017 8:59 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Window-Eyes Tutorials and Transition

Hi


Food for thought. I do have a full list of windows commands i would have to check for windows 7, 8 and 10 that can be inserted into a page if its a webpage.


If you want them i can drop box them to you.


I know what you mean by 8 pages and counting the object navigation takes a little getting used to and i do not think there is some thing like that in other screen readers.

I thought some one said the idea was burrowed from voice over?


Text review is pretty good as it lets you read stuff that you can not with the system focus, but people have to get there head around that you can review a whole page without say moving the carrot cursor but you can not edit with it.


Gene nz



On 25/05/2017 1:35 PM, Tony Ballou wrote:

howdy Mate,


I've started working on the chart and would like your input and feedback on it so far. Because of it's length, 8 pages and probably counting, it is far too long to post here. I'm basically concentrating on the things I'm totally familiar with in both screen readers and leaving the review and object navigation modes for another time.  I for now just want to give anyone who is coming from window eyes to NVDA enough ammunition to get going and begin to feel comfortable with using the program. 


In my own personal experience, I learned NVDA by knowing all of the basic windows commands, and studying the help documentation that came with it. And as a new weapon of choice, I've added the accessibilitycentral.net website to my arsenal of darn near all things NVDA.


Contact me off list at cyberpro224@... if you want to give this a go.


Tony




On 5/24/2017 1:49 PM, Gene wrote:
I don't think describing how to use object navigation is a good idea in this context.  Giving resources for those interested, such as the tutorial chapter done by Joseph Lee would probably be a much better idea in terms of use of those creating such materials' time.  Also, the user in most cases, doesn't have to know about object navigation when first making the transition.  Better not to overload the user with a difficult concept to teach such as this at the outset. 
 
Using screen review mode can easily be explained in a work such as you are creating and it must be emphasized that after using screen review, the user must return to object navigation mode because if this isn't done, NVDA won't work properly in various contexts.  So just explaining how to enter screen review, numpad insert numpad 7 executed until you hear that there are no more review modes, then give the review commands to read current line, move to and read next line, etc. could be given.  How to move the mouse and click it could also be given. 
 
then how to return to object navigation, numpad insert 1 repeated until there are no more review modes would be done when finished.
 
It is better not to give Window-eyes and NVDA equivalent commands in the context of screen-review.  There are many equivalent commands but going into screen-review and returning to object navigation has no equivalent in Window-eyes.  this might be pointed out.  As for movement commands, the Window-eyes user will recognize equivalents such as read current line without the tutorial pointing out the actual Window-eyes command.
 
The listener or reader will know what is being discussed when the NVDA commands are given.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2017 11:32 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Window-Eyes Tutorials and Transition

Howdy Mate,


That's what I was thinking also. If there are any other window eyes users out there whether they be former like myself or current who would like to help me with this endeavor, come on in, because there's loads I don't know. I'll try to have some basic ground work for the sheet up for all of you to look at by tomorrow.   


Tony
On 5/23/2017 5:09 PM, Gene wrote:
You can't compare the Window-eyes mouse pointer to object navigation.  You can give commands in NVDA for read current line, previous line, next line, and similar review commands
 
But you have to learn object navigation on its own. 
 
Screen review should be easy to teach since it is similar.  There are different commands but it's similar in movement and concept.
 
Commands such as read to end can be given.  As for browse mode, commands are either similar or identical in Window-eyes or NVDA.  I haven't used Window-eyes to any extent for years but just listing NVDA commands such as move by heading, h, skip blocks of links, n, move to next button, b, etc. should be sufficient. It should be explained how to stop automatic going into browse mode and how to change audio indications to words. 
 
As I more or less said earlier,  most of what most users do is use program commands, Windows commands, and quick navigation commands. 
 
In my opinion, that is the first important point to be made.
Maybe I'll try writing something.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2017 3:42 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Window-Eyes Tutorials and Transition

Hi,


Give me a couple of days, Let me see what I can come up with


Tony


On 5/23/2017 2:38 PM, Brandon Cross wrote:
Yeah, agreed, I tried window eyes briefly, not enough to get a grasp on it, but if anyone did know both intimately, it would be a worthwhile venture to make a little cheat sheet, or more if needed. An article of sourts maybe.

On Wed, May 17, 2017 at 7:40 PM, David Moore <jesusloves1966@...> wrote:

Amen!

I will be here to help anyone coming from Window-Eyes to switch to NVDA for their screen reader. I hope this does become a great way to promote NVDA and get many more people acquainted with it.

David Moore

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Andre Fisher
Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2017 2:36 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Window-Eyes Tutorials and Transition

 

Hi everyone.

 

Although I was never a Window-Eyes user, strictly NVDA, I feel that

providing material, similarly to how VFO provided some nice

transitional material to help transition to JAWS is a very good idea

for NVDA. This will be especially beneficial to those persons who are

using the Free for Office Edition. As there is a page on the wiki and

NVDACon, I hope this suggestion can come to reality, as there is a

good opportunity to extend NVDA's reach and popularity, as well as

reporting features and bugs.

 

 

 






--
Check out my website for nvda tutorials and other blindness related material at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net. Regardless of where you are in New Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you can use a copy of the NVDA screen reader on one of their computers. To find out which locations or location is near to you please visit http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries | Aotearoa People's Network Kaharoa -


Re: Window-Eyes Tutorials and Transition

Gene
 

I'm not sure what you are creating.  You speak of a chart and that it is eight pages long.  Evidently, you will send it to all who request it.  I'll probably write off list and do so.  But I really don't think anything that long is needed nor desirable to provide a transition.  In my opinion, the following should be discussed not in a chart, but in a document:
How to set speech parameters including synthesizer, reading speed and punctuation, how to open the menu.  How to unload NVDA and how to run it.  A brief discussion of the talking installer.  Not much, but that you will be asked if you want to create a portable version or install the screen-reader.
Aside from that, the following commands should be briefly stated:
Read current line.  Read previous line, read next line.
Read current word, next word and previous word.  The same with characters.  the pattern may be very briefly noted.
Read title bar and that pressing the command twice quickly will spell the title bar.  Pressing it three times copies the title bar text to the clipboard.
Very little discussion of browse mode need be done.  the commands are very similar or perhaps just about identical.  It should be explained how to make each link appear on its own line.  It should be explained how to stop automatic switching between browse and function mode and how to switch to words to notify the user when he is in browse mode or focus mode. 
 
Screen review may be described but it might be better to refer the user to something like the chapter in the tutorial Joseph Lee did on the subject.  It is still available on line.  Object review as well can be referred to a chapter in the tutorial. 
A brief discussion of the NVDA users' list should be given and the syntax to join.
 
I wouldn't do anything other than what I've mentioned unless I happen to think of something that I've forgotten in this disscussion but even if I did, I would do very little more.  This document is to provide a transition, not to teach Windows nor NVDA in detail.  It's purpose is to allow Window-eyes users to be able to use NVDA and refer them to resources for teaching such things as object navigation.  If it is too long and detailed, it may discourage some people from making the transition.  The purpose is to allow basic NVDA use in as short a time and with as little to learn as possible. 
 
I should add one more thing that should be mentioned.  It should be pointed out that input help is available and that you use it in the same way as in Window-eyes.  I believe the command is the same but whether it is or not, the user should be told the following:
To go into input help, use insert 1 meaning 1 on the main keyboard.  Either insert may be used.  An example of use may be given.  When in browse mode, for example, every browse mode letter such as h for heading, b for button, etc. will name the command when pressed.  the user may, if he/she wishes, push every letter of the alphabet to see what the quick navigation commands are.  they are almost identical to Windo-eyes but this will allow the user to be aware of any differences in an engaged and interactive, not a passive way. 
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2017 8:59 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Window-Eyes Tutorials and Transition

Hi


Food for thought. I do have a full list of windows commands i would have to check for windows 7, 8 and 10 that can be inserted into a page if its a webpage.


If you want them i can drop box them to you.


I know what you mean by 8 pages and counting the object navigation takes a little getting used to and i do not think there is some thing like that in other screen readers.

I thought some one said the idea was burrowed from voice over?


Text review is pretty good as it lets you read stuff that you can not with the system focus, but people have to get there head around that you can review a whole page without say moving the carrot cursor but you can not edit with it.


Gene nz



On 25/05/2017 1:35 PM, Tony Ballou wrote:

howdy Mate,


I've started working on the chart and would like your input and feedback on it so far. Because of it's length, 8 pages and probably counting, it is far too long to post here. I'm basically concentrating on the things I'm totally familiar with in both screen readers and leaving the review and object navigation modes for another time.  I for now just want to give anyone who is coming from window eyes to NVDA enough ammunition to get going and begin to feel comfortable with using the program. 


In my own personal experience, I learned NVDA by knowing all of the basic windows commands, and studying the help documentation that came with it. And as a new weapon of choice, I've added the accessibilitycentral.net website to my arsenal of darn near all things NVDA.


Contact me off list at cyberpro224@... if you want to give this a go.


Tony




On 5/24/2017 1:49 PM, Gene wrote:
I don't think describing how to use object navigation is a good idea in this context.  Giving resources for those interested, such as the tutorial chapter done by Joseph Lee would probably be a much better idea in terms of use of those creating such materials' time.  Also, the user in most cases, doesn't have to know about object navigation when first making the transition.  Better not to overload the user with a difficult concept to teach such as this at the outset. 
 
Using screen review mode can easily be explained in a work such as you are creating and it must be emphasized that after using screen review, the user must return to object navigation mode because if this isn't done, NVDA won't work properly in various contexts.  So just explaining how to enter screen review, numpad insert numpad 7 executed until you hear that there are no more review modes, then give the review commands to read current line, move to and read next line, etc. could be given.  How to move the mouse and click it could also be given. 
 
then how to return to object navigation, numpad insert 1 repeated until there are no more review modes would be done when finished.
 
It is better not to give Window-eyes and NVDA equivalent commands in the context of screen-review.  There are many equivalent commands but going into screen-review and returning to object navigation has no equivalent in Window-eyes.  this might be pointed out.  As for movement commands, the Window-eyes user will recognize equivalents such as read current line without the tutorial pointing out the actual Window-eyes command.
 
The listener or reader will know what is being discussed when the NVDA commands are given.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2017 11:32 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Window-Eyes Tutorials and Transition

Howdy Mate,


That's what I was thinking also. If there are any other window eyes users out there whether they be former like myself or current who would like to help me with this endeavor, come on in, because there's loads I don't know. I'll try to have some basic ground work for the sheet up for all of you to look at by tomorrow.   


Tony
On 5/23/2017 5:09 PM, Gene wrote:
You can't compare the Window-eyes mouse pointer to object navigation.  You can give commands in NVDA for read current line, previous line, next line, and similar review commands
 
But you have to learn object navigation on its own. 
 
Screen review should be easy to teach since it is similar.  There are different commands but it's similar in movement and concept.
 
Commands such as read to end can be given.  As for browse mode, commands are either similar or identical in Window-eyes or NVDA.  I haven't used Window-eyes to any extent for years but just listing NVDA commands such as move by heading, h, skip blocks of links, n, move to next button, b, etc. should be sufficient. It should be explained how to stop automatic going into browse mode and how to change audio indications to words. 
 
As I more or less said earlier,  most of what most users do is use program commands, Windows commands, and quick navigation commands. 
 
In my opinion, that is the first important point to be made.
Maybe I'll try writing something.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2017 3:42 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Window-Eyes Tutorials and Transition

Hi,


Give me a couple of days, Let me see what I can come up with


Tony


On 5/23/2017 2:38 PM, Brandon Cross wrote:
Yeah, agreed, I tried window eyes briefly, not enough to get a grasp on it, but if anyone did know both intimately, it would be a worthwhile venture to make a little cheat sheet, or more if needed. An article of sourts maybe.

On Wed, May 17, 2017 at 7:40 PM, David Moore <jesusloves1966@...> wrote:

Amen!

I will be here to help anyone coming from Window-Eyes to switch to NVDA for their screen reader. I hope this does become a great way to promote NVDA and get many more people acquainted with it.

David Moore

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Andre Fisher
Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2017 2:36 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Window-Eyes Tutorials and Transition

 

Hi everyone.

 

Although I was never a Window-Eyes user, strictly NVDA, I feel that

providing material, similarly to how VFO provided some nice

transitional material to help transition to JAWS is a very good idea

for NVDA. This will be especially beneficial to those persons who are

using the Free for Office Edition. As there is a page on the wiki and

NVDACon, I hope this suggestion can come to reality, as there is a

good opportunity to extend NVDA's reach and popularity, as well as

reporting features and bugs.

 

 

 






--
Check out my website for nvda tutorials and other blindness related material at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net. Regardless of where you are in New Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you can use a copy of the NVDA screen reader on one of their computers. To find out which locations or location is near to you please visit http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries | Aotearoa People's Network Kaharoa -


Announcing StationPlaylist Studio add-on 17.06 and Project Contact Lenses

 

Hi everyone,

 

I’m delighted to announce the immediate release of StationPlaylist sTudio add-on for NVDA version 17.06, providing major fixes for Track Finder feature. More info can be found at:

https://github.com/josephsl/stationPlaylist/releases/tag/17.06

 

For new family members: StationPlaylist Studio add-on is a module that allows you to use StationPlaylist studio with NVDA. It has all the features you expect from screen reader scripts for this program, namely ability to specify end of track alarm, find tracks, monitor encoders and much more. Plus, it includes unique features, including Columns Explorer (read contents of a specific column), playlist snapshots (get a quick summary of a playlist such as longest track) and much more. Also, this add-on is just one of a handful of add-ons that supports updating to new releases without visiting the add-ons website at all.

 

For Window-Eyes users: as part of Project Contact Lenses (more on that shortly), I’d like to take you onboard on a journey that is SPL, NVDA and the Studio add-on. If you or know anyone who uses Window-Eyes with SPL Studio and would like to use NVDA, please contact me (in case of your friends, please have them contact me).

 

Thanks.

Cheers,

Joseph


Re: Fine-Grained Control Over the Group Messages You Receive from Groups.io

Tony Ballou
 

Howdy Brian,


Thanks for these tips, man you've just help me cut down on quite of bit of mail. 


Tony


On 5/24/2017 11:46 AM, Brian Vogel wrote:
Hello All,


I know that most folks participate by e-mail, but there are some features related to how your individual messages or digests are delivered to you that cannot be controlled by the e-mail interface but where you must log in to your Groups.io account and go to your subscription page.  If you have never logged in to the site and don’t have a password, please see the section on doing just that, which is toward the end of this message, first.

Using the Advanced Preferences for e-mail delivery gives you very precise control over which messages will make it to your inbox and can allow you to significantly decrease the amount of e-mail you receive from a high-traffic group while allowing you to decide what's important enough to keep an eye on.

Advanced Preferences for Your Group Subscription

 

Once you get to the main Groups.io webpage, http://groups.io, you will need to navigate to the Log in (two words) button and activate it.  Once you’ve entered your username, which is the e-mail address you’ve used to subscribe to the group(s) you routinely read, and password, then hit the Log in button beneath them you will be taken to the “Your Groups” page.

1.        Do a screen reader find for “Your Groups” which takes you to the “Your Groups” dropdown button and activate it.  Arrow down through the list of groups to select the one for which you wish to set up your advanced preferences.  You will have to start back at this step for each group for which you wish to set up the advanced mail preferences.

2.       Do a screen reader find for “Subscription” link and activate it.

3.       Just so you’re aware these are on this page, there is a radio button cluster for the regular delivery options:  All Messages, Full Featured Digest, Plain Digest, Daily Summary, Special Notices Only, No email.  This is immediately followed by two checkboxes related to using a signature:  Use signature for web posting and Use signature for e-mail posting.  These are followed by the signature edit box, should you wish to set up a signature that goes on to all your messages if you check one of the previously mentioned checkboxes.

4.      Do a screen reader find for “Advanced” which will take you to the Advanced Preferences link.  Activate it.

5.       There are three major sections to the advanced preferences:

a.       Message Selection.  There are two radio buttons:  All Messages and Following Only.  If the first is selected then every message sent to the group will be sent to you in the format you selected for e-mail delivery.   If you select Following Only then the only messages you will receive are messages you’ve chosen to follow.  There is a checkbox associated with “Following Only,” “First Message Also.”  If this checkbox is checked it serves as a selective override such that the first message in any new topic is sent to you so that you can see it  and elect to follow it with the link at the end of the message if you wish to keep monitoring this topic.

b.      Replies.  There is a checkbox, “Auto follow replies,” which will make any topic that you start yourself, or any topic in which you reply to a message, followed.  This checkbox is generally only used if you have elected to use the “Following Only” feature for message selection.

c.       Max Attachment Size (only for groups that allow attachments).  This is followed by a dropdown box that allows you to choose from four different maximum sizes for attachments to be delivered to you via e-mail.  The default is unlimited size.  If you’re using an internet service with data caps you may wish to change this.  If you choose the zero option it means that all attachments will be stripped before a message is sent to you.

6.      Find the “Save” button and activate it to save these settings.

As you can see, if you choose a setup where you have elected to get messages with the “Following Only” option combined with the “First message also” checkbox this will greatly decrease the flow of e-mail you receive while allowing you to decide for each topic whether you wish to follow it to receive further messages or not.  If you do nothing then you will not receive any additional messages for that particular topic unless you hit the link to follow it at the end of the message or reply to it, if the “auto follow replies” option was checked.

 

Getting a Password to Log in to the Groups.io Website

If you’ve subscribed via e-mail you have a Groups.io login id, your e-mail address, but you’ve never been assigned a password for the website.  To get one:

1.        In your web browser, go to the Groups.io main site login page:  https://groups.io/login

2.       Find the “Forgot your password?” link and activate it.

3.       A page with a single edit box, e-mail address will open.  Enter your e-mail address in it.

4.      Navigate to the one and only button on the page, “Email Link to Log In,” and activate it.

 

5.       Watch your e-mail, including your spam/junk box, for a message from Groups.io that will contain a link you need to activate that takes you to your Groups.io profile page where you set your password.  This is the password you’ll use to log in to any Groups.io group webpage where you wish to do something, such as changing your preferences, that requires you to be logged in to do.  You are, at this stage, actually logged in.

--
Brian         Version 1703, Build 15063.296, Home 64-bit

 

     Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.

            ~ Mark Twain

 

 



Re: A very damn well written article promoting NVDA

Gene New Zealand <hurrikennyandopo@...>
 

Hi


I totally agree with what you said.


The part in the article that stood out to me most was what is below.


What Can You Do To Help?
Every screen reader user can help NVDA in their own way. A number of things you and I can do to advance NVDA and our freedoms include:
• If you have programming skills, you can do something to improve NVDA itself. You could help the core team fix bugs and add features, you can write a new plug-in providing more functionality to NVDA users and participate in various other ways as well.
• If you have good writing skills, you can help create documentation and training materials for NVDA.
• If you are multi-lingual, you can help translate NVDA documentation and training materials into languages other than English.
• If you use NVDA and find a bug, you can report it through their tracking system to ensure the programmers know about the defect so they can then find a remedy.
• If you have a social media account, you can help promote NVDA with tweets, FaceBook posts and such.
• Instead of paying for a JAWS SMA, you can send the money to NVAccess to help the people working on the software.
• If you’re a solid NVDA user, you can help other users with tips and tricks and other helpful information on mailing lists and the like.
• If you have a blog, you can write about why you like NVDA and relatively high profile people like me will help you promote your stories on social media.
• If you’re a TPG person and haven’t signed the restrictive covenants with VFO yet, continue to refuse to do so. You’re all capable of finding another job in a real hurry. so VFO needs you more than you need them.

Gene nz

On 25/05/2017 2:05 PM, Tony Ballou wrote:

Hi,


I read the article and though we as Gene and Travis said cannot allow ourselves to go stark raving mad against any group and compare it to the dregs of the computing world, and send it down the flaming lava pit of the nearest active volcano, Chris did make a number of valid points. The point that stuck with me most was what we as a group can do.  As a community we have lots of juice, let's continue to use it.  Through the continuing support of the project by all of us here, talking it up, promoting it, souping it up, to be the best of the screen reading lot, and make it the best piece of adaptive software on the market.  The more we keep our hands in it as visually impaired users whether it be through programming, instructing, writing tips, tricks, and manuals for users, blogging, and even posting on social media to spread the word about it overtime should move anything that's thrown our way aside. Just my take.


Tony


On 5/24/2017 1:26 PM, Gene wrote:
The article makes interesting points but it's really overdone.  Here is most of a message I sent to another list on the subject.  I have added more comments. 
 
The assertion that a screen-reader can make a great piece of spyware sounds plausible to me, someone without in depth technical knowledge.  I suspect that it is technically true but I hardly think that VFO would risk the reputation of JAWS by doing so.  It would be illegal on its face, I would think and it would certainly be illegal if it weren't spelled out in the user agreement.  JAWS is very heavily dependent on business use for its revenue.  As one example of liability, if JAWS collected information, anyone business or individual doing medical work in The United States where a person's name is ever used, could prosecute VFO for violating the patient privacy act.  And that's just one example that comes to mind.  Are there blind psychiatrists or psychologists or social workers or people who work for them who use JAWS to keep patient records?  Another case of devastating liability for JAWS.  How about lawyers?  The idea that the owners of JAWS would turn it into spyware is just not credible.  To paraphrase the late Justice Scalia, it should strain the credulity of the credulous.  People may criticize JAWS and its developers for various reasons but it makes no sense to believe that the company is suicidal. 
 
And what is the risk when compared to the benefits?  The blind user base isn't large enough nore affluent enough to even begin to justify such risks, even if the company were suicidal. 
 
I'd have to read the article again to see if I disagree with other assertions, but that was the one I really remember.  There is no question that NVDA is a necessary program and that it fills a vital need in many peoples' lives.  And over time, JAWS will, I would think, lose an increasing amount of market share in the personal market.  It may lose some business market share over time as well.  But when assessing the need for NVDA and its future, paranoia about the irrationality of the major competitor is not a good basis to build a good deal of the argument. 
 
If you make such assertions, you lose credibility for your assertions that are well based.  And even here, one assertion I recall is possible but highly improbable at this time.  The assertion that JAWS is more likely to disappear may be correct, but its highly improbable unless things change dramatically and it should be regarded more as a remote possibility and largely academic at this time. 
 
There are lots of compelling arguments to support and use NVDA.  But such arguments as make up much of this article, while interesting and provocative, are so far-fetched, even though possible, that they are not a good basis to form much of such arguments.  They may gain support for NVDA among some people but they may needlessly erode support among some JAWS users, making NVDA appear more like a project supported by paranoid fanatics than what it actually is, a project that is hard-headed and realistic in its development and outlook.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: The Wolf
Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2017 11:11 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] A very damn well written article promoting NVDA

I have to agree

lets tell vfo where to shove it

and get more people to drop jaws and switch to nvda
On 5/24/2017 9:08 AM, Devin Prater wrote:

I agree, this was a great article!

 

Devin Prater
Assistive Technology in training, World Services for the Blind
Sent from Mail for windows 10

 

From: Brian's Mail list account
Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2017 10:34 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] A very damn well written article promoting NVDA

 

Except that every time someone says Floss to me I think of teeth.

sorry.

Brian

 

bglists@...

Sent via blueyonder.

Please address personal email to:-

briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'

in the display name field.

----- Original Message -----

From: "Mallard" <mallard@...>

To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>

Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2017 9:04 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] A very damn well written article promoting NVDA

 

 

> Wow! This is great! I'll forward it to all my friends, blind and

> sighted...

> I usually donate to NVDA each time a new version comes out, but I think I

> won't wait for NVDA 2017.2 to be officially released. This time I'll make

> an early donation to celebrate this great article... (smile).

> Ciao, and thanks Christopher!

> Ollie

> Il 23/05/2017 23:47, Lino Morales ha scritto:

>> Chris Hoffstater wrote a damn good article on his blog about NVDA which

>> you can read here.

>> 

>> http://chrishofstader.com/nvda-now-more-than-ever/

>> 

>> 

>> 

>> 

>

>

 

 

 

 




--
Check out my website for nvda tutorials and other blindness related material at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net. Regardless of where you are in New Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you can use a copy of the NVDA screen reader on one of their computers. To find out which locations or location is near to you please visit http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries | Aotearoa People's Network Kaharoa -


Re: Window-Eyes Tutorials and Transition

Tony Ballou
 

Howdy Mate, 


Much appreciated. Do that, my thought here is that by understanding the primary basic windows commands combined with some of what I have here, the transition shouldn't be that much of a bear.

Tony

On 5/24/2017 9:59 PM, Gene New Zealand wrote:

Hi


Food for thought. I do have a full list of windows commands i would have to check for windows 7, 8 and 10 that can be inserted into a page if its a webpage.


If you want them i can drop box them to you.


I know what you mean by 8 pages and counting the object navigation takes a little getting used to and i do not think there is some thing like that in other screen readers.

I thought some one said the idea was burrowed from voice over?


Text review is pretty good as it lets you read stuff that you can not with the system focus, but people have to get there head around that you can review a whole page without say moving the carrot cursor but you can not edit with it.


Gene nz



On 25/05/2017 1:35 PM, Tony Ballou wrote:

howdy Mate,


I've started working on the chart and would like your input and feedback on it so far. Because of it's length, 8 pages and probably counting, it is far too long to post here. I'm basically concentrating on the things I'm totally familiar with in both screen readers and leaving the review and object navigation modes for another time.  I for now just want to give anyone who is coming from window eyes to NVDA enough ammunition to get going and begin to feel comfortable with using the program. 


In my own personal experience, I learned NVDA by knowing all of the basic windows commands, and studying the help documentation that came with it. And as a new weapon of choice, I've added the accessibilitycentral.net website to my arsenal of darn near all things NVDA.


Contact me off list at cyberpro224@... if you want to give this a go.


Tony




On 5/24/2017 1:49 PM, Gene wrote:
I don't think describing how to use object navigation is a good idea in this context.  Giving resources for those interested, such as the tutorial chapter done by Joseph Lee would probably be a much better idea in terms of use of those creating such materials' time.  Also, the user in most cases, doesn't have to know about object navigation when first making the transition.  Better not to overload the user with a difficult concept to teach such as this at the outset. 
 
Using screen review mode can easily be explained in a work such as you are creating and it must be emphasized that after using screen review, the user must return to object navigation mode because if this isn't done, NVDA won't work properly in various contexts.  So just explaining how to enter screen review, numpad insert numpad 7 executed until you hear that there are no more review modes, then give the review commands to read current line, move to and read next line, etc. could be given.  How to move the mouse and click it could also be given. 
 
then how to return to object navigation, numpad insert 1 repeated until there are no more review modes would be done when finished.
 
It is better not to give Window-eyes and NVDA equivalent commands in the context of screen-review.  There are many equivalent commands but going into screen-review and returning to object navigation has no equivalent in Window-eyes.  this might be pointed out.  As for movement commands, the Window-eyes user will recognize equivalents such as read current line without the tutorial pointing out the actual Window-eyes command.
 
The listener or reader will know what is being discussed when the NVDA commands are given.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2017 11:32 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Window-Eyes Tutorials and Transition

Howdy Mate,


That's what I was thinking also. If there are any other window eyes users out there whether they be former like myself or current who would like to help me with this endeavor, come on in, because there's loads I don't know. I'll try to have some basic ground work for the sheet up for all of you to look at by tomorrow.   


Tony
On 5/23/2017 5:09 PM, Gene wrote:
You can't compare the Window-eyes mouse pointer to object navigation.  You can give commands in NVDA for read current line, previous line, next line, and similar review commands
 
But you have to learn object navigation on its own. 
 
Screen review should be easy to teach since it is similar.  There are different commands but it's similar in movement and concept.
 
Commands such as read to end can be given.  As for browse mode, commands are either similar or identical in Window-eyes or NVDA.  I haven't used Window-eyes to any extent for years but just listing NVDA commands such as move by heading, h, skip blocks of links, n, move to next button, b, etc. should be sufficient. It should be explained how to stop automatic going into browse mode and how to change audio indications to words. 
 
As I more or less said earlier,  most of what most users do is use program commands, Windows commands, and quick navigation commands. 
 
In my opinion, that is the first important point to be made.
Maybe I'll try writing something.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2017 3:42 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Window-Eyes Tutorials and Transition

Hi,


Give me a couple of days, Let me see what I can come up with


Tony


On 5/23/2017 2:38 PM, Brandon Cross wrote:
Yeah, agreed, I tried window eyes briefly, not enough to get a grasp on it, but if anyone did know both intimately, it would be a worthwhile venture to make a little cheat sheet, or more if needed. An article of sourts maybe.

On Wed, May 17, 2017 at 7:40 PM, David Moore <jesusloves1966@...> wrote:

Amen!

I will be here to help anyone coming from Window-Eyes to switch to NVDA for their screen reader. I hope this does become a great way to promote NVDA and get many more people acquainted with it.

David Moore

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Andre Fisher
Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2017 2:36 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Window-Eyes Tutorials and Transition

 

Hi everyone.

 

Although I was never a Window-Eyes user, strictly NVDA, I feel that

providing material, similarly to how VFO provided some nice

transitional material to help transition to JAWS is a very good idea

for NVDA. This will be especially beneficial to those persons who are

using the Free for Office Edition. As there is a page on the wiki and

NVDACon, I hope this suggestion can come to reality, as there is a

good opportunity to extend NVDA's reach and popularity, as well as

reporting features and bugs.

 

 

 






--
Check out my website for nvda tutorials and other blindness related material at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net. Regardless of where you are in New Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you can use a copy of the NVDA screen reader on one of their computers. To find out which locations or location is near to you please visit http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries | Aotearoa People's Network Kaharoa -


Re: Window-Eyes Tutorials and Transition

Tony Ballou
 

Hi Joseph,


Unfortunately, I don't know any of them personally. Several of the apps were written by members or because of the way things have gone down, former members of the staff. I'll try and help find you some folks to connect with.

 

Tony

On 5/24/2017 12:34 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi Tony,

Do you know any Window-Eyes app scripters besides Jeff Bishop? If so, please have them write to me directly, as I have a proposal for them.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Tony Ballou
Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2017 9:33 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Window-Eyes Tutorials and Transition

 

Howdy Mate,

 

That's what I was thinking also. If there are any other window eyes users out there whether they be former like myself or current who would like to help me with this endeavor, come on in, because there's loads I don't know. I'll try to have some basic ground work for the sheet up for all of you to look at by tomorrow.   


Tony

On 5/23/2017 5:09 PM, Gene wrote:

You can't compare the Window-eyes mouse pointer to object navigation.  You can give commands in NVDA for read current line, previous line, next line, and similar review commands

 

But you have to learn object navigation on its own. 

 

Screen review should be easy to teach since it is similar.  There are different commands but it's similar in movement and concept.

 

Commands such as read to end can be given.  As for browse mode, commands are either similar or identical in Window-eyes or NVDA.  I haven't used Window-eyes to any extent for years but just listing NVDA commands such as move by heading, h, skip blocks of links, n, move to next button, b, etc. should be sufficient. It should be explained how to stop automatic going into browse mode and how to change audio indications to words. 

 

As I more or less said earlier,  most of what most users do is use program commands, Windows commands, and quick navigation commands. 

 

In my opinion, that is the first important point to be made.

Maybe I'll try writing something.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2017 3:42 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Window-Eyes Tutorials and Transition

 

Hi,

 

Give me a couple of days, Let me see what I can come up with


Tony

On 5/23/2017 2:38 PM, Brandon Cross wrote:

Yeah, agreed, I tried window eyes briefly, not enough to get a grasp on it, but if anyone did know both intimately, it would be a worthwhile venture to make a little cheat sheet, or more if needed. An article of sourts maybe.

 

On Wed, May 17, 2017 at 7:40 PM, David Moore <jesusloves1966@...> wrote:

Amen!

I will be here to help anyone coming from Window-Eyes to switch to NVDA for their screen reader. I hope this does become a great way to promote NVDA and get many more people acquainted with it.

David Moore

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Andre Fisher
Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2017 2:36 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Window-Eyes Tutorials and Transition

 

Hi everyone.

 

Although I was never a Window-Eyes user, strictly NVDA, I feel that

providing material, similarly to how VFO provided some nice

transitional material to help transition to JAWS is a very good idea

for NVDA. This will be especially beneficial to those persons who are

using the Free for Office Edition. As there is a page on the wiki and

NVDACon, I hope this suggestion can come to reality, as there is a

good opportunity to extend NVDA's reach and popularity, as well as

reporting features and bugs.

 

 

 

 

 

 



Re: A very damn well written article promoting NVDA

Tony Ballou
 

Hi,


I read the article and though we as Gene and Travis said cannot allow ourselves to go stark raving mad against any group and compare it to the dregs of the computing world, and send it down the flaming lava pit of the nearest active volcano, Chris did make a number of valid points. The point that stuck with me most was what we as a group can do.  As a community we have lots of juice, let's continue to use it.  Through the continuing support of the project by all of us here, talking it up, promoting it, souping it up, to be the best of the screen reading lot, and make it the best piece of adaptive software on the market.  The more we keep our hands in it as visually impaired users whether it be through programming, instructing, writing tips, tricks, and manuals for users, blogging, and even posting on social media to spread the word about it overtime should move anything that's thrown our way aside. Just my take.


Tony


On 5/24/2017 1:26 PM, Gene wrote:
The article makes interesting points but it's really overdone.  Here is most of a message I sent to another list on the subject.  I have added more comments. 
 
The assertion that a screen-reader can make a great piece of spyware sounds plausible to me, someone without in depth technical knowledge.  I suspect that it is technically true but I hardly think that VFO would risk the reputation of JAWS by doing so.  It would be illegal on its face, I would think and it would certainly be illegal if it weren't spelled out in the user agreement.  JAWS is very heavily dependent on business use for its revenue.  As one example of liability, if JAWS collected information, anyone business or individual doing medical work in The United States where a person's name is ever used, could prosecute VFO for violating the patient privacy act.  And that's just one example that comes to mind.  Are there blind psychiatrists or psychologists or social workers or people who work for them who use JAWS to keep patient records?  Another case of devastating liability for JAWS.  How about lawyers?  The idea that the owners of JAWS would turn it into spyware is just not credible.  To paraphrase the late Justice Scalia, it should strain the credulity of the credulous.  People may criticize JAWS and its developers for various reasons but it makes no sense to believe that the company is suicidal. 
 
And what is the risk when compared to the benefits?  The blind user base isn't large enough nore affluent enough to even begin to justify such risks, even if the company were suicidal. 
 
I'd have to read the article again to see if I disagree with other assertions, but that was the one I really remember.  There is no question that NVDA is a necessary program and that it fills a vital need in many peoples' lives.  And over time, JAWS will, I would think, lose an increasing amount of market share in the personal market.  It may lose some business market share over time as well.  But when assessing the need for NVDA and its future, paranoia about the irrationality of the major competitor is not a good basis to build a good deal of the argument. 
 
If you make such assertions, you lose credibility for your assertions that are well based.  And even here, one assertion I recall is possible but highly improbable at this time.  The assertion that JAWS is more likely to disappear may be correct, but its highly improbable unless things change dramatically and it should be regarded more as a remote possibility and largely academic at this time. 
 
There are lots of compelling arguments to support and use NVDA.  But such arguments as make up much of this article, while interesting and provocative, are so far-fetched, even though possible, that they are not a good basis to form much of such arguments.  They may gain support for NVDA among some people but they may needlessly erode support among some JAWS users, making NVDA appear more like a project supported by paranoid fanatics than what it actually is, a project that is hard-headed and realistic in its development and outlook.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: The Wolf
Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2017 11:11 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] A very damn well written article promoting NVDA

I have to agree

lets tell vfo where to shove it

and get more people to drop jaws and switch to nvda
On 5/24/2017 9:08 AM, Devin Prater wrote:

I agree, this was a great article!

 

Devin Prater
Assistive Technology in training, World Services for the Blind
Sent from Mail for windows 10

 

From: Brian's Mail list account
Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2017 10:34 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] A very damn well written article promoting NVDA

 

Except that every time someone says Floss to me I think of teeth.

sorry.

Brian

 

bglists@...

Sent via blueyonder.

Please address personal email to:-

briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'

in the display name field.

----- Original Message -----

From: "Mallard" <mallard@...>

To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>

Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2017 9:04 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] A very damn well written article promoting NVDA

 

 

> Wow! This is great! I'll forward it to all my friends, blind and

> sighted...

> I usually donate to NVDA each time a new version comes out, but I think I

> won't wait for NVDA 2017.2 to be officially released. This time I'll make

> an early donation to celebrate this great article... (smile).

> Ciao, and thanks Christopher!

> Ollie

> Il 23/05/2017 23:47, Lino Morales ha scritto:

>> Chris Hoffstater wrote a damn good article on his blog about NVDA which

>> you can read here.

>> 

>> http://chrishofstader.com/nvda-now-more-than-ever/

>> 

>> 

>> 

>> 

>

>

 

 

 

 




Re: Window-Eyes Tutorials and Transition

Gene New Zealand <hurrikennyandopo@...>
 

Hi


Food for thought. I do have a full list of windows commands i would have to check for windows 7, 8 and 10 that can be inserted into a page if its a webpage.


If you want them i can drop box them to you.


I know what you mean by 8 pages and counting the object navigation takes a little getting used to and i do not think there is some thing like that in other screen readers.

I thought some one said the idea was burrowed from voice over?


Text review is pretty good as it lets you read stuff that you can not with the system focus, but people have to get there head around that you can review a whole page without say moving the carrot cursor but you can not edit with it.


Gene nz



On 25/05/2017 1:35 PM, Tony Ballou wrote:

howdy Mate,


I've started working on the chart and would like your input and feedback on it so far. Because of it's length, 8 pages and probably counting, it is far too long to post here. I'm basically concentrating on the things I'm totally familiar with in both screen readers and leaving the review and object navigation modes for another time.  I for now just want to give anyone who is coming from window eyes to NVDA enough ammunition to get going and begin to feel comfortable with using the program. 


In my own personal experience, I learned NVDA by knowing all of the basic windows commands, and studying the help documentation that came with it. And as a new weapon of choice, I've added the accessibilitycentral.net website to my arsenal of darn near all things NVDA.


Contact me off list at cyberpro224@... if you want to give this a go.


Tony




On 5/24/2017 1:49 PM, Gene wrote:
I don't think describing how to use object navigation is a good idea in this context.  Giving resources for those interested, such as the tutorial chapter done by Joseph Lee would probably be a much better idea in terms of use of those creating such materials' time.  Also, the user in most cases, doesn't have to know about object navigation when first making the transition.  Better not to overload the user with a difficult concept to teach such as this at the outset. 
 
Using screen review mode can easily be explained in a work such as you are creating and it must be emphasized that after using screen review, the user must return to object navigation mode because if this isn't done, NVDA won't work properly in various contexts.  So just explaining how to enter screen review, numpad insert numpad 7 executed until you hear that there are no more review modes, then give the review commands to read current line, move to and read next line, etc. could be given.  How to move the mouse and click it could also be given. 
 
then how to return to object navigation, numpad insert 1 repeated until there are no more review modes would be done when finished.
 
It is better not to give Window-eyes and NVDA equivalent commands in the context of screen-review.  There are many equivalent commands but going into screen-review and returning to object navigation has no equivalent in Window-eyes.  this might be pointed out.  As for movement commands, the Window-eyes user will recognize equivalents such as read current line without the tutorial pointing out the actual Window-eyes command.
 
The listener or reader will know what is being discussed when the NVDA commands are given.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2017 11:32 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Window-Eyes Tutorials and Transition

Howdy Mate,


That's what I was thinking also. If there are any other window eyes users out there whether they be former like myself or current who would like to help me with this endeavor, come on in, because there's loads I don't know. I'll try to have some basic ground work for the sheet up for all of you to look at by tomorrow.   


Tony
On 5/23/2017 5:09 PM, Gene wrote:
You can't compare the Window-eyes mouse pointer to object navigation.  You can give commands in NVDA for read current line, previous line, next line, and similar review commands
 
But you have to learn object navigation on its own. 
 
Screen review should be easy to teach since it is similar.  There are different commands but it's similar in movement and concept.
 
Commands such as read to end can be given.  As for browse mode, commands are either similar or identical in Window-eyes or NVDA.  I haven't used Window-eyes to any extent for years but just listing NVDA commands such as move by heading, h, skip blocks of links, n, move to next button, b, etc. should be sufficient. It should be explained how to stop automatic going into browse mode and how to change audio indications to words. 
 
As I more or less said earlier,  most of what most users do is use program commands, Windows commands, and quick navigation commands. 
 
In my opinion, that is the first important point to be made.
Maybe I'll try writing something.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2017 3:42 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Window-Eyes Tutorials and Transition

Hi,


Give me a couple of days, Let me see what I can come up with


Tony


On 5/23/2017 2:38 PM, Brandon Cross wrote:
Yeah, agreed, I tried window eyes briefly, not enough to get a grasp on it, but if anyone did know both intimately, it would be a worthwhile venture to make a little cheat sheet, or more if needed. An article of sourts maybe.

On Wed, May 17, 2017 at 7:40 PM, David Moore <jesusloves1966@...> wrote:

Amen!

I will be here to help anyone coming from Window-Eyes to switch to NVDA for their screen reader. I hope this does become a great way to promote NVDA and get many more people acquainted with it.

David Moore

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Andre Fisher
Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2017 2:36 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Window-Eyes Tutorials and Transition

 

Hi everyone.

 

Although I was never a Window-Eyes user, strictly NVDA, I feel that

providing material, similarly to how VFO provided some nice

transitional material to help transition to JAWS is a very good idea

for NVDA. This will be especially beneficial to those persons who are

using the Free for Office Edition. As there is a page on the wiki and

NVDACon, I hope this suggestion can come to reality, as there is a

good opportunity to extend NVDA's reach and popularity, as well as

reporting features and bugs.

 

 

 






--
Check out my website for nvda tutorials and other blindness related material at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net. Regardless of where you are in New Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you can use a copy of the NVDA screen reader on one of their computers. To find out which locations or location is near to you please visit http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries | Aotearoa People's Network Kaharoa -


Re: Window-Eyes Tutorials and Transition

Tony Ballou
 

howdy Mate,


I've started working on the chart and would like your input and feedback on it so far. Because of it's length, 8 pages and probably counting, it is far too long to post here. I'm basically concentrating on the things I'm totally familiar with in both screen readers and leaving the review and object navigation modes for another time.  I for now just want to give anyone who is coming from window eyes to NVDA enough ammunition to get going and begin to feel comfortable with using the program. 


In my own personal experience, I learned NVDA by knowing all of the basic windows commands, and studying the help documentation that came with it. And as a new weapon of choice, I've added the accessibilitycentral.net website to my arsenal of darn near all things NVDA.


Contact me off list at cyberpro224@... if you want to give this a go.


Tony




On 5/24/2017 1:49 PM, Gene wrote:
I don't think describing how to use object navigation is a good idea in this context.  Giving resources for those interested, such as the tutorial chapter done by Joseph Lee would probably be a much better idea in terms of use of those creating such materials' time.  Also, the user in most cases, doesn't have to know about object navigation when first making the transition.  Better not to overload the user with a difficult concept to teach such as this at the outset. 
 
Using screen review mode can easily be explained in a work such as you are creating and it must be emphasized that after using screen review, the user must return to object navigation mode because if this isn't done, NVDA won't work properly in various contexts.  So just explaining how to enter screen review, numpad insert numpad 7 executed until you hear that there are no more review modes, then give the review commands to read current line, move to and read next line, etc. could be given.  How to move the mouse and click it could also be given. 
 
then how to return to object navigation, numpad insert 1 repeated until there are no more review modes would be done when finished.
 
It is better not to give Window-eyes and NVDA equivalent commands in the context of screen-review.  There are many equivalent commands but going into screen-review and returning to object navigation has no equivalent in Window-eyes.  this might be pointed out.  As for movement commands, the Window-eyes user will recognize equivalents such as read current line without the tutorial pointing out the actual Window-eyes command.
 
The listener or reader will know what is being discussed when the NVDA commands are given.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2017 11:32 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Window-Eyes Tutorials and Transition

Howdy Mate,


That's what I was thinking also. If there are any other window eyes users out there whether they be former like myself or current who would like to help me with this endeavor, come on in, because there's loads I don't know. I'll try to have some basic ground work for the sheet up for all of you to look at by tomorrow.   


Tony
On 5/23/2017 5:09 PM, Gene wrote:
You can't compare the Window-eyes mouse pointer to object navigation.  You can give commands in NVDA for read current line, previous line, next line, and similar review commands
 
But you have to learn object navigation on its own. 
 
Screen review should be easy to teach since it is similar.  There are different commands but it's similar in movement and concept.
 
Commands such as read to end can be given.  As for browse mode, commands are either similar or identical in Window-eyes or NVDA.  I haven't used Window-eyes to any extent for years but just listing NVDA commands such as move by heading, h, skip blocks of links, n, move to next button, b, etc. should be sufficient. It should be explained how to stop automatic going into browse mode and how to change audio indications to words. 
 
As I more or less said earlier,  most of what most users do is use program commands, Windows commands, and quick navigation commands. 
 
In my opinion, that is the first important point to be made.
Maybe I'll try writing something.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2017 3:42 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Window-Eyes Tutorials and Transition

Hi,


Give me a couple of days, Let me see what I can come up with


Tony


On 5/23/2017 2:38 PM, Brandon Cross wrote:
Yeah, agreed, I tried window eyes briefly, not enough to get a grasp on it, but if anyone did know both intimately, it would be a worthwhile venture to make a little cheat sheet, or more if needed. An article of sourts maybe.

On Wed, May 17, 2017 at 7:40 PM, David Moore <jesusloves1966@...> wrote:

Amen!

I will be here to help anyone coming from Window-Eyes to switch to NVDA for their screen reader. I hope this does become a great way to promote NVDA and get many more people acquainted with it.

David Moore

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Andre Fisher
Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2017 2:36 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Window-Eyes Tutorials and Transition

 

Hi everyone.

 

Although I was never a Window-Eyes user, strictly NVDA, I feel that

providing material, similarly to how VFO provided some nice

transitional material to help transition to JAWS is a very good idea

for NVDA. This will be especially beneficial to those persons who are

using the Free for Office Edition. As there is a page on the wiki and

NVDACon, I hope this suggestion can come to reality, as there is a

good opportunity to extend NVDA's reach and popularity, as well as

reporting features and bugs.

 

 

 






Re: A very damn well written article promoting NVDA

Kwork
 


Yes, it does turn off automatically when navigating to another page, or closing Firefox. You are also right that it's in the view menu, alt v, then up arrow once to an entry that says "enter reader view."
Travis

----- Original Message -----
From: Gene
Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2017 12:50 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] A very damn well written article promoting NVDA

You can't use Webvisum so I advise people to have an older version of Firefox portable for use with pages where they want to use Webvisum and to use a current version of Firefox on all other pages.
 
I generally don't use the view feature so I can't tell you all the details but to start it, go to a web page with an article, then open the view menu, alt v and then up arrow, I believe, once. 
You will see something that says something like reading view.  Press enter.  Now look at how the page has changed or just try readingt from the top. 
 
I don't recall if the feature automatically turns off when you open another page but you can turn it off in the view menu if you want to.  I'm quite sure it automatically turns off when you close and open the browser again as well.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Dennis L
Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2017 2:06 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] A very damn well written article promoting NVDA

How do you use the feature if you’re trying to read an article?   Also is it true with the latest Firefox you can’t use WebVvisum?

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2017 3:04 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] A very damn well written article promoting NVDA

 

It doesn't fix bugs.  The only thing it does is provide security updates.  It provides such support because many people can't use Edge yet because they don't use Windows 10.  Also, Edge is not fully accessible yet.  But no technical improvements have been made in Internet Explorer for years.  It is really legacy software that gets security fixes at this point.

 

One feature firefox has that some blind people find useful is one that removes lots of extraneous material from web pages with articles on them such as newspaper or magazine articles. 

 

Another feature I very much like is searchable book marks.  I don't worry about organizing book marks.  I can search for the one I want so easily that if it is inconvenient to get to it by arrowing or by first letter navigation, I do a search.  I don't use addons to any extent but Firefox has a lot of add ons.  Internet Explorer doesn't have many. 

 

And I suspect that Internet Explorer, as it ages, works more poorly on more sites than firefox or Chrome.  Also, Internet Explorer supports Active X controls which are a needless security risk.  Neither Firefox nor Chrome support Active X controls by default and site designers don't use them these days.  But Internet Explorer still supports them, providing a useless feature, that serves as a vector to try to put malware onto machines.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Dennis L

Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2017 1:36 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] A very damn well written article promoting NVDA

 

If it’s outdated why does Microsoft update it and fix bugs with patches?  Why is Firefox better in your opinion?

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2017 2:33 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] A very damn well written article promoting NVDA

 

One bug on one site is hardly a reason not to donate.  Demanding users of any screen-reader probably are aware of at least one bugg in whatever screen-reader they use. 

 

Internet Explorer is increasingly archaic and it isn't a good idea to cling to it.  You will have more and more problems over time as it becomes increasingly outdated.  I have no objection to this bug being looked into.  But I'm saying that Internet Explorer is not being developed and hasn't been for years.  Other browsers are just about identical to use for browsing.  Browse mode is browse mode in any browser that supports it. 

 

You have to learn something about working with settings in different browsers because the actual interface is different but there isn't much to learn whether you use Chrome or Firefox as the main browser.  Most of what you do will be exactly the same.  And Firefox has features that Internet Explorer doesn't have that are of real advantage to many users if you know them.  I would never go back to Internet Explorer after seeing how useful certain firefox features are.  

 

I try to encourage blind people to stop using Internet Explorer as their main browser because it is not a good idea to do so with a browser that becomes more outdated every day.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Dennis L

Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2017 11:49 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] A very damn well written article promoting NVDA

 

I reported it to the git hub and to Quinton I don’t know what else to do but since you asked I will report it hear as well.

1 set

www.ixquick.com as your home in internet explorer.

2 do the same in Firefox.

Now using Internet explorer do a search press h for heading  try clicking on any link in the search results  .  Nothing will happen.

If you do the same in Firefox the link will click.  I shouldn’t have to use Firefox or a browser I don’t want to use or am not comfortable with just for it to work right.  If the issues I stated were fixed I would gladly donate to NVDA.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Joseph Lee
Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2017 12:39 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] A very damn well written article promoting NVDA

 

Hi,

Part of that involves users telling us how to reproduce bugs so the talented devs (inside and outside NV Access) can troubleshoot them. I’m not saying this lightly: user cooperation is also a key in making screen readers better.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Dennis L
Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2017 9:38 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] A very damn well written article promoting NVDA

 

That requires NVDA start to fix bugs in a timely manner and add features that Jaws has like when you have messages rules set up and you have 14 unread messages give me the option to have that read automatically when I arrow to the NVDA folder it says NVDA14 unread messages or something like that.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of The Wolf
Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2017 12:11 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] A very damn well written article promoting NVDA

 

I have to agree

lets tell vfo where to shove it

and get more people to drop jaws and switch to nvda

On 5/24/2017 9:08 AM, Devin Prater wrote:

I agree, this was a great article!

 

Devin Prater
Assistive Technology in training, World Services for the Blind
Sent from Mail for windows 10

 

From: Brian's Mail list account
Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2017 10:34 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] A very damn well written article promoting NVDA

 

Except that every time someone says Floss to me I think of teeth.

sorry.

Brian

 

bglists@...

Sent via blueyonder.

Please address personal email to:-

briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'

in the display name field.

----- Original Message -----

From: "Mallard" <mallard@...>

To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>

Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2017 9:04 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] A very damn well written article promoting NVDA

 

 

> Wow! This is great! I'll forward it to all my friends, blind and

> sighted...

> I usually donate to NVDA each time a new version comes out, but I think I

> won't wait for NVDA 2017.2 to be officially released. This time I'll make

> an early donation to celebrate this great article... (smile).

> Ciao, and thanks Christopher!

> Ollie

> Il 23/05/2017 23:47, Lino Morales ha scritto:

>> Chris Hoffstater wrote a damn good article on his blog about NVDA which

>> you can read here.

>> 

>> http://chrishofstader.com/nvda-now-more-than-ever/

>> 

>> 

>> 

>> 

>

>

 

 

 

 

 


Re: Brltty with Windows 10 Creators update

Holger Fiallo <hfiallo@...>
 

 
It works well for me. I got the new version of W10 and NVDA. No issues. However I have a desktop and not a labtop.

From: Deborah Armstrong
Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2017 4:24 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Brltty with Windows 10 Creators update
 
I am an experienced user of brltty in both Linux and Windows 7. (I use Windows 7 at my job but not at home.) In Windows I use it with NVDA because the versions I’ve downloaded in the past never worked with my 64-bit Windows 7 without NVDA being present.
 
Now that I’ve got the Creators’ update with Windows 10 on my home laptop, I’m wondering what others’ experience is getting it to work with NVDA. So far I’ve had no success.
 
I confirmed my laptop had no previous version of Brltty installed and certainly no Brlapi services that might run to confuse things.
 
I next exited NVDA, ran Narrator, went to Narrator settings under the full Ease of Access settings accessed with Windows I.
 
I tabbed over to Braille, and chose Install Braille. A terminal with some program whose name I didn’t catch ran.
 
Now in Narrator settings, there’s a check box for enable Braille that’s checked. I also had to choose a display. I have several old displays that do work with Brltty and NVDA under Windows 7 on my computers in my job.  I selected one of these and made it the default.
 
I rebooted, and looked at the settings dialog for Braille with NVDA , and then exited NVDA and used Narrator to look at the same settings. I exited narrator and used JAWS to also examine the settings. All looks good; Braille is enabled and I currently have a Fredom Scientific Focus blue set as my default display and the Freedom Scientific drivers are disabled and the Braille libusb drivers are enabled. Brltty is installed in /windows/bin, whereas under windows 7 it’s installed in program files (x86), but the /etc/brltty.conf is correctly configured for my focus blue.
 
I’m still not getting any Braille, either in Narrator or Nvda. I am not getting Braille with JAWS either, but that’s because I disabled the freedom scientific drivers as instructed in Chapter 7 of Microsoft’s newest guide to using Narrator.
 
My ultimate goal is to use a TSI PowerBraille with both NVDA and narrator on this laptop, since I have several I bought on ebay and they work well.
 
Has anyone gotten Braille working under Windows 10 and also gotten NVDA to use this new Microsoft version of Brltty?
 
Thanks.
 
--Debee
 


Re: NVDA 2017 error

 

My suspician since truevoice was sapi4 is that you are probably needing the admin password to access the system or your version has a reason for a password maybe a licence or something.

Deleting the %appdata%\nvda folder should make it drop back to espeak though.

On 25/05/2017 5:38 a.m., George McDermith - CDLE wrote:
Greetings all,



I am an adaptive technology instructor in Colorado, and am
attempting to use NVDA to meet client needs.



While attempting to demonstrate NVDA on a PC with multiple
accounts I was changing the built in voices and received an error message
saying I needed to enter a password in order to use the True Voice
selected. The dialog box continued to reappear despite trying to dismiss
it, and NVDA was subsequently unresponsive. I have attempted removing NVDA
from all the accounts on the computer, reinstalling it from the web site,
and I continue to get the same error message.



Anyone have any work arounds or ideas? My thanks for the
assistance.



George McDermith

Adaptive Technology Specialist

Phone: 303-866-4999



2211 West Evans Avenue Bldg A

Denver, CO 80223

*Please click here to tell us how we’re doing.
<https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/5779VYB>*


Re: A very damn well written article promoting NVDA

 

Any software can be made into spyware, look at the blindextra addon.

Or lets look at the get windows 10 app, it was spyware, malware, probably ransomware of a sort but it was legal.

Its gone now, ms did get in trouble over it but it continued for some times.

All those extra privacy and spying things going on from other companies yet users put up with some and not others.

So my only opinion on this is it will differ between people what is and what isn't offensive to them in this respect if I am making any sence.

On 25/05/2017 5:26 a.m., Gene wrote:
The article makes interesting points but it's really overdone. Here is most of a message I sent to another list on the subject. I have added more comments.

The assertion that a screen-reader can make a great piece of spyware sounds plausible to me, someone without in depth technical knowledge. I suspect that it is technically true but I hardly think that VFO would risk the reputation of JAWS by doing so. It would be illegal on its face, I would think and it would certainly be illegal if it weren't spelled out in the user agreement. JAWS is very heavily dependent on business use for its revenue. As one example of liability, if JAWS collected information, anyone business or individual doing medical work in The United States where a person's name is ever used, could prosecute VFO for violating the patient privacy act. And that's just one example that comes to mind. Are there blind psychiatrists or psychologists or social workers or people who work for them who use JAWS to keep patient records? Another case of devastating liability for JAWS. How about lawyers? The idea that the owners of JAWS would turn it into spyware is just not credible. To paraphrase the late Justice Scalia, it should strain the credulity of the credulous. People may criticize JAWS and its developers for various reasons but it makes no sense to believe that the company is suicidal.

And what is the risk when compared to the benefits? The blind user base isn't large enough nore affluent enough to even begin to justify such risks, even if the company were suicidal.

I'd have to read the article again to see if I disagree with other assertions, but that was the one I really remember. There is no question that NVDA is a necessary program and that it fills a vital need in many peoples' lives. And over time, JAWS will, I would think, lose an increasing amount of market share in the personal market. It may lose some business market share over time as well. But when assessing the need for NVDA and its future, paranoia about the irrationality of the major competitor is not a good basis to build a good deal of the argument.

If you make such assertions, you lose credibility for your assertions that are well based. And even here, one assertion I recall is possible but highly improbable at this time. The assertion that JAWS is more likely to disappear may be correct, but its highly improbable unless things change dramatically and it should be regarded more as a remote possibility and largely academic at this time.

There are lots of compelling arguments to support and use NVDA. But such arguments as make up much of this article, while interesting and provocative, are so far-fetched, even though possible, that they are not a good basis to form much of such arguments. They may gain support for NVDA among some people but they may needlessly erode support among some JAWS users, making NVDA appear more like a project supported by paranoid fanatics than what it actually is, a project that is hard-headed and realistic in its development and outlook.

Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: The Wolf
Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2017 11:11 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] A very damn well written article promoting NVDA


I have to agree

lets tell vfo where to shove it


and get more people to drop jaws and switch to nvda

On 5/24/2017 9:08 AM, Devin Prater wrote:

I agree, this was a great article!


Devin Prater
Assistive Technology in training, World Services for the Blind
Sent from Mail for windows 10


From: Brian's Mail list account
Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2017 10:34 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] A very damn well written article promoting NVDA


Except that every time someone says Floss to me I think of teeth.

sorry.

Brian


bglists@blueyonder.co.uk

Sent via blueyonder.

Please address personal email to:-

briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'

in the display name field.

----- Original Message -----

From: "Mallard" <mallard@kimabe.eu>

To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>

Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2017 9:04 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] A very damn well written article promoting NVDA



> Wow! This is great! I'll forward it to all my friends, blind and

> sighted...

>

>

> I usually donate to NVDA each time a new version comes out, but I think I

> won't wait for NVDA 2017.2 to be officially released. This time I'll make

> an early donation to celebrate this great article... (smile).

>

>

> Ciao, and thanks Christopher!

>

> Ollie

>

>

>

>

>

> Il 23/05/2017 23:47, Lino Morales ha scritto:

>> Chris Hoffstater wrote a damn good article on his blog about NVDA which

>> you can read here.

>>

>> http://chrishofstader.com/nvda-now-more-than-ever/

>>

>>

>>

>>

>

>

>

>








Brltty with Windows 10 Creators update

Deborah Armstrong <debee@...>
 

I am an experienced user of brltty in both Linux and Windows 7. (I use Windows 7 at my job but not at home.) In Windows I use it with NVDA because the versions I’ve downloaded in the past never worked with my 64-bit Windows 7 without NVDA being present.
 
Now that I’ve got the Creators’ update with Windows 10 on my home laptop, I’m wondering what others’ experience is getting it to work with NVDA. So far I’ve had no success.
 
I confirmed my laptop had no previous version of Brltty installed and certainly no Brlapi services that might run to confuse things.
 
I next exited NVDA, ran Narrator, went to Narrator settings under the full Ease of Access settings accessed with Windows I.
 
I tabbed over to Braille, and chose Install Braille. A terminal with some program whose name I didn’t catch ran.
 
Now in Narrator settings, there’s a check box for enable Braille that’s checked. I also had to choose a display. I have several old displays that do work with Brltty and NVDA under Windows 7 on my computers in my job.  I selected one of these and made it the default.
 
I rebooted, and looked at the settings dialog for Braille with NVDA , and then exited NVDA and used Narrator to look at the same settings. I exited narrator and used JAWS to also examine the settings. All looks good; Braille is enabled and I currently have a Fredom Scientific Focus blue set as my default display and the Freedom Scientific drivers are disabled and the Braille libusb drivers are enabled. Brltty is installed in /windows/bin, whereas under windows 7 it’s installed in program files (x86), but the /etc/brltty.conf is correctly configured for my focus blue.
 
I’m still not getting any Braille, either in Narrator or Nvda. I am not getting Braille with JAWS either, but that’s because I disabled the freedom scientific drivers as instructed in Chapter 7 of Microsoft’s newest guide to using Narrator.
 
My ultimate goal is to use a TSI PowerBraille with both NVDA and narrator on this laptop, since I have several I bought on ebay and they work well.
 
Has anyone gotten Braille working under Windows 10 and also gotten NVDA to use this new Microsoft version of Brltty?
 
Thanks.
 
--Debee
 


Re: A very damn well written article promoting NVDA

Kevin Cussick
 

Yes agreed, we need to think before we post sometimes.

On 24/05/2017 19:05, Kwork wrote:
And I also believe that the best way to talk up NVDA isn't to tell VFO to shove it, and we, as grateful NVDA users, need to watch how we present ourselves so that we don't look ridiculous.
----- Original Message -----
*From:* Gene <mailto:gsasner@ripco.com>
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*Sent:* Wednesday, May 24, 2017 10:26 AM
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] A very damn well written article promoting NVDA
The article makes interesting points but it's really overdone. Here is most of a message I sent to another list on the subject. I have added more comments.
The assertion that a screen-reader can make a great piece of spyware sounds plausible to me, someone without in depth technical knowledge. I suspect that it is technically true but I hardly think that VFO would risk the reputation of JAWS by doing so. It would be illegal on its face, I would think and it would certainly be illegal if it weren't spelled out in the user agreement. JAWS is very heavily dependent on business use for its revenue. As one example of liability, if JAWS collected information, anyone business or individual doing medical work in The United States where a person's name is ever used, could prosecute VFO for violating the patient privacy act. And that's just one example that comes to mind. Are there blind psychiatrists or psychologists or social workers or people who work for them who use JAWS to keep patient records? Another case of devastating liability for JAWS. How about lawyers? The idea that the owners of JAWS would turn it into spyware is just not credible. To paraphrase the late Justice Scalia, it should strain the credulity of the credulous. People may criticize JAWS and its developers for various reasons but it makes no sense to believe that the company is suicidal.
And what is the risk when compared to the benefits? The blind user base isn't large enough nore affluent enough to even begin to justify such risks, even if the company were suicidal.
I'd have to read the article again to see if I disagree with other assertions, but that was the one I really remember. There is no question that NVDA is a necessary program and that it fills a vital need in many peoples' lives. And over time, JAWS will, I would think, lose an increasing amount of market share in the personal market. It may lose some business market share over time as well. But when assessing the need for NVDA and its future, paranoia about the irrationality of the major competitor is not a good basis to build a good deal of the argument.
If you make such assertions, you lose credibility for your assertions that are well based. And even here, one assertion I recall is possible but highly improbable at this time. The assertion that JAWS is more likely to disappear may be correct, but its highly improbable unless things change dramatically and it should be regarded more as a remote possibility and largely academic at this time.
There are lots of compelling arguments to support and use NVDA. But such arguments as make up much of this article, while interesting and provocative, are so far-fetched, even though possible, that they are not a good basis to form much of such arguments. They may gain support for NVDA among some people but they may needlessly erode support among some JAWS users, making NVDA appear more like a project supported by paranoid fanatics than what it actually is, a project that is hard-headed and realistic in its development and outlook.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
*From:* The Wolf <mailto:hank.smith966@gmail.com>
*Sent:* Wednesday, May 24, 2017 11:11 AM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] A very damn well written article promoting NVDA
I have to agree
lets tell vfo where to shove it
and get more people to drop jaws and switch to nvda
On 5/24/2017 9:08 AM, Devin Prater wrote:

I agree, this was a great article!

Devin Prater
Assistive Technology in training, World Services for the Blind
Sent from Mail for windows 10

*From: *Brian's Mail list account <mailto:bglists@blueyonder.co.uk>
*Sent: *Wednesday, May 24, 2017 10:34 AM
*To: *nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*Subject: *Re: [nvda] A very damn well written article promoting NVDA

Except that every time someone says Floss to me I think of teeth.

sorry.

Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk

Sent via blueyonder.

Please address personal email to:-

briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'

in the display name field.

----- Original Message -----

From: "Mallard" <mallard@kimabe.eu>

To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>

Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2017 9:04 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] A very damn well written article promoting NVDA

Wow! This is great! I'll forward it to all my friends, blind and
sighted...
I usually donate to NVDA each time a new version comes out, but I
think I

won't wait for NVDA 2017.2 to be officially released. This time I'll
make

an early donation to celebrate this great article... (smile).
Ciao, and thanks Christopher!
Ollie
Il 23/05/2017 23:47, Lino Morales ha scritto:
Chris Hoffstater wrote a damn good article on his blog about NVDA
which

you can read here.
http://chrishofstader.com/nvda-now-more-than-ever/


Re: A very damn well written article promoting NVDA

enes sarıbaş
 

because it is in it's extended support phase.


On 5/24/2017 9:36 PM, Dennis L wrote:

If it’s outdated why does Microsoft update it and fix bugs with patches?  Why is Firefox better in your opinion?

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2017 2:33 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] A very damn well written article promoting NVDA

 

One bug on one site is hardly a reason not to donate.  Demanding users of any screen-reader probably are aware of at least one bugg in whatever screen-reader they use. 

 

Internet Explorer is increasingly archaic and it isn't a good idea to cling to it.  You will have more and more problems over time as it becomes increasingly outdated.  I have no objection to this bug being looked into.  But I'm saying that Internet Explorer is not being developed and hasn't been for years.  Other browsers are just about identical to use for browsing.  Browse mode is browse mode in any browser that supports it. 

 

You have to learn something about working with settings in different browsers because the actual interface is different but there isn't much to learn whether you use Chrome or Firefox as the main browser.  Most of what you do will be exactly the same.  And Firefox has features that Internet Explorer doesn't have that are of real advantage to many users if you know them.  I would never go back to Internet Explorer after seeing how useful certain firefox features are.  

 

I try to encourage blind people to stop using Internet Explorer as their main browser because it is not a good idea to do so with a browser that becomes more outdated every day.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Dennis L

Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2017 11:49 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] A very damn well written article promoting NVDA

 

I reported it to the git hub and to Quinton I don’t know what else to do but since you asked I will report it hear as well.

1 set

www.ixquick.com as your home in internet explorer.

2 do the same in Firefox.

Now using Internet explorer do a search press h for heading  try clicking on any link in the search results  .  Nothing will happen.

If you do the same in Firefox the link will click.  I shouldn’t have to use Firefox or a browser I don’t want to use or am not comfortable with just for it to work right.  If the issues I stated were fixed I would gladly donate to NVDA.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Joseph Lee
Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2017 12:39 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] A very damn well written article promoting NVDA

 

Hi,

Part of that involves users telling us how to reproduce bugs so the talented devs (inside and outside NV Access) can troubleshoot them. I’m not saying this lightly: user cooperation is also a key in making screen readers better.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Dennis L
Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2017 9:38 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] A very damn well written article promoting NVDA

 

That requires NVDA start to fix bugs in a timely manner and add features that Jaws has like when you have messages rules set up and you have 14 unread messages give me the option to have that read automatically when I arrow to the NVDA folder it says NVDA14 unread messages or something like that.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of The Wolf
Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2017 12:11 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] A very damn well written article promoting NVDA

 

I have to agree

lets tell vfo where to shove it

and get more people to drop jaws and switch to nvda

On 5/24/2017 9:08 AM, Devin Prater wrote:

I agree, this was a great article!

 

Devin Prater
Assistive Technology in training, World Services for the Blind
Sent from Mail for windows 10

 

From: Brian's Mail list account
Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2017 10:34 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] A very damn well written article promoting NVDA

 

Except that every time someone says Floss to me I think of teeth.

sorry.

Brian

 

bglists@...

Sent via blueyonder.

Please address personal email to:-

briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'

in the display name field.

----- Original Message -----

From: "Mallard" <mallard@...>

To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>

Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2017 9:04 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] A very damn well written article promoting NVDA

 

 

> Wow! This is great! I'll forward it to all my friends, blind and

> sighted...

> I usually donate to NVDA each time a new version comes out, but I think I

> won't wait for NVDA 2017.2 to be officially released. This time I'll make

> an early donation to celebrate this great article... (smile).

> Ciao, and thanks Christopher!

> Ollie

> Il 23/05/2017 23:47, Lino Morales ha scritto:

>> Chris Hoffstater wrote a damn good article on his blog about NVDA which

>> you can read here.

>> 

>> http://chrishofstader.com/nvda-now-more-than-ever/

>> 

>> 

>> 

>> 

>

>

 

 

 

 

 



Re: A very damn well written article promoting NVDA

Brandon Cross <bcross3286@...>
 

yes, definitely, I had already seen this, and agree 100%

On Tue, May 23, 2017 at 10:00 PM, Gene New Zealand <hurrikennyandopo@...> wrote:
Hi


I agree a very well written article.


I enjoyed the read.


Gene nz



On 24/05/2017 9:47 AM, Lino Morales wrote:
> Chris Hoffstater wrote a damn good article on his blog about NVDA
> which you can read here.
>
> http://chrishofstader.com/nvda-now-more-than-ever/
>
>
>
>

--
Check out my website for nvda tutorials and other blindness related
material at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net. Regardless of where you
are in New Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you can use a
copy of the NVDA screen reader on one of their computers. To find out
which locations or location is near to you please visit
http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries |
Aotearoa People's Network Kaharoa -





Re: A very damn well written article promoting NVDA

Gene
 

You can't use Webvisum so I advise people to have an older version of Firefox portable for use with pages where they want to use Webvisum and to use a current version of Firefox on all other pages.
 
I generally don't use the view feature so I can't tell you all the details but to start it, go to a web page with an article, then open the view menu, alt v and then up arrow, I believe, once. 
You will see something that says something like reading view.  Press enter.  Now look at how the page has changed or just try readingt from the top. 
 
I don't recall if the feature automatically turns off when you open another page but you can turn it off in the view menu if you want to.  I'm quite sure it automatically turns off when you close and open the browser again as well.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
From: Dennis L
Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2017 2:06 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] A very damn well written article promoting NVDA

How do you use the feature if you’re trying to read an article?   Also is it true with the latest Firefox you can’t use WebVvisum?

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2017 3:04 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] A very damn well written article promoting NVDA

 

It doesn't fix bugs.  The only thing it does is provide security updates.  It provides such support because many people can't use Edge yet because they don't use Windows 10.  Also, Edge is not fully accessible yet.  But no technical improvements have been made in Internet Explorer for years.  It is really legacy software that gets security fixes at this point.

 

One feature firefox has that some blind people find useful is one that removes lots of extraneous material from web pages with articles on them such as newspaper or magazine articles. 

 

Another feature I very much like is searchable book marks.  I don't worry about organizing book marks.  I can search for the one I want so easily that if it is inconvenient to get to it by arrowing or by first letter navigation, I do a search.  I don't use addons to any extent but Firefox has a lot of add ons.  Internet Explorer doesn't have many. 

 

And I suspect that Internet Explorer, as it ages, works more poorly on more sites than firefox or Chrome.  Also, Internet Explorer supports Active X controls which are a needless security risk.  Neither Firefox nor Chrome support Active X controls by default and site designers don't use them these days.  But Internet Explorer still supports them, providing a useless feature, that serves as a vector to try to put malware onto machines.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Dennis L

Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2017 1:36 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] A very damn well written article promoting NVDA

 

If it’s outdated why does Microsoft update it and fix bugs with patches?  Why is Firefox better in your opinion?

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2017 2:33 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] A very damn well written article promoting NVDA

 

One bug on one site is hardly a reason not to donate.  Demanding users of any screen-reader probably are aware of at least one bugg in whatever screen-reader they use. 

 

Internet Explorer is increasingly archaic and it isn't a good idea to cling to it.  You will have more and more problems over time as it becomes increasingly outdated.  I have no objection to this bug being looked into.  But I'm saying that Internet Explorer is not being developed and hasn't been for years.  Other browsers are just about identical to use for browsing.  Browse mode is browse mode in any browser that supports it. 

 

You have to learn something about working with settings in different browsers because the actual interface is different but there isn't much to learn whether you use Chrome or Firefox as the main browser.  Most of what you do will be exactly the same.  And Firefox has features that Internet Explorer doesn't have that are of real advantage to many users if you know them.  I would never go back to Internet Explorer after seeing how useful certain firefox features are.  

 

I try to encourage blind people to stop using Internet Explorer as their main browser because it is not a good idea to do so with a browser that becomes more outdated every day.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Dennis L

Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2017 11:49 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] A very damn well written article promoting NVDA

 

I reported it to the git hub and to Quinton I don’t know what else to do but since you asked I will report it hear as well.

1 set

www.ixquick.com as your home in internet explorer.

2 do the same in Firefox.

Now using Internet explorer do a search press h for heading  try clicking on any link in the search results  .  Nothing will happen.

If you do the same in Firefox the link will click.  I shouldn’t have to use Firefox or a browser I don’t want to use or am not comfortable with just for it to work right.  If the issues I stated were fixed I would gladly donate to NVDA.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Joseph Lee
Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2017 12:39 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] A very damn well written article promoting NVDA

 

Hi,

Part of that involves users telling us how to reproduce bugs so the talented devs (inside and outside NV Access) can troubleshoot them. I’m not saying this lightly: user cooperation is also a key in making screen readers better.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Dennis L
Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2017 9:38 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] A very damn well written article promoting NVDA

 

That requires NVDA start to fix bugs in a timely manner and add features that Jaws has like when you have messages rules set up and you have 14 unread messages give me the option to have that read automatically when I arrow to the NVDA folder it says NVDA14 unread messages or something like that.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of The Wolf
Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2017 12:11 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] A very damn well written article promoting NVDA

 

I have to agree

lets tell vfo where to shove it

and get more people to drop jaws and switch to nvda

On 5/24/2017 9:08 AM, Devin Prater wrote:

I agree, this was a great article!

 

Devin Prater
Assistive Technology in training, World Services for the Blind
Sent from Mail for windows 10

 

From: Brian's Mail list account
Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2017 10:34 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] A very damn well written article promoting NVDA

 

Except that every time someone says Floss to me I think of teeth.

sorry.

Brian

 

bglists@...

Sent via blueyonder.

Please address personal email to:-

briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'

in the display name field.

----- Original Message -----

From: "Mallard" <mallard@...>

To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>

Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2017 9:04 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] A very damn well written article promoting NVDA

 

 

> Wow! This is great! I'll forward it to all my friends, blind and

> sighted...

> I usually donate to NVDA each time a new version comes out, but I think I

> won't wait for NVDA 2017.2 to be officially released. This time I'll make

> an early donation to celebrate this great article... (smile).

> Ciao, and thanks Christopher!

> Ollie

> Il 23/05/2017 23:47, Lino Morales ha scritto:

>> Chris Hoffstater wrote a damn good article on his blog about NVDA which

>> you can read here.

>> 

>> http://chrishofstader.com/nvda-now-more-than-ever/

>> 

>> 

>> 

>> 

>

>

 

 

 

 

 


Re: NVDA 2017 error

Tyler Spivey
 

Uninstalling NVDA won't fix this, because it doesn't delete the user configuration.
The easiest way to fix this is:
1. Press Windows+r to bring up the Run dialog.
2. Type: %appdata%\nvda
3. Press enter.
4. Find nvda.ini and delete it.

This won't remove your addons, just the configuration file which tells NVDA which synthesizer is currently active.

On 5/24/2017 10:38 AM, George McDermith - CDLE wrote:
Greetings all,



I am an adaptive technology instructor in Colorado, and
am attempting to use NVDA to meet client needs.



While attempting to demonstrate NVDA on a PC with
multiple accounts I was changing the built in voices and received an
error message saying I needed to enter a password in order to use the
True Voice selected. The dialog box continued to reappear despite trying
to dismiss it, and NVDA was subsequently unresponsive. I have attempted
removing NVDA from all the accounts on the computer, reinstalling it
from the web site, and I continue to get the same error message.



Anyone have any work arounds or ideas? My thanks for the
assistance.



George McDermith

Adaptive Technology Specialist

Phone: 303-866-4999



2211 West Evans Avenue Bldg A

Denver, CO 80223

*Please click here to tell us how we’re doing.
<https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/5779VYB>*