Date   

Re: How is verbosity decided

g melconian <gmelconian619@...>
 

Bryan, thast strange. most users tend to change things as  they get mor familiar with a particular software or operating system or mobile platform. I have change at least 80% of my settings  and have customized my devices whether that  be my Windows pc, my chrome book, my android tv box, my android devices and etc.  So that is not a true statement that 90 % don’t change  settings or customizations . 


Re: How is verbosity decided

g melconian <gmelconian619@...>
 

Thanks bryan for the info.  

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2020 12:56 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How is verbosity decided

 

On Thu, Dec 17, 2020 at 01:21 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:

because what Brian wanted to communicate (if I'm understanding his messages correctly) is that we (developers and users) should not mess with users minds. Habit is a strong force, and first impressions and experiences matter.

-
Precisely.  And even I will admit that what any given development team may have chosen as its defaults often drives me to drink.  But once I know what those are, and have been for long periods of time, I know on every fresh setup of a given piece of software (including operating systems) what my list of tweaks is, and can apply it reliably and without much thought after the initial thought that went into it.

I also just don't get why anyone cannot acknowledge the simple fact that one size fits all means, in reality, that one size fits none, and that tailoring is necessary.  It does not matter one bit what any given piece of software is configured like in its "out of the box" state.  Someone is going to hate all or part of whatever choices have been made.  Choosing defaults is a nontrivial exercise and, for those doing the choosing, a "Damned if you do, damned if you don't," situation in many cases.  And once you've picked 'em, you tend to keep 'em so you don't mess with people's heads, even if in the real world 90% of your existing users change certain somethings.  It's absolutely not a case of foolish consistency being the hobgoblin of little minds.  Precedent means something, and even bad but predictable precedent in your software allows you to keep your sanity over time.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next.  We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

        ~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner 

 


Re: How is verbosity decided

 

On Thu, Dec 17, 2020 at 11:42 AM, Gene wrote:
Just because I don't agree doesn't mean I am unreasonable.
-
Indeed.  And it has nothing to do with why I believe you are unreasonable.  And my reasons for believing so have been clearly articulated.  You are rigid, and have demonstrated this again and again.  I can't count how many people, other than myself, have been trying to shake you out of this rigidity on this topic alone.  You just will not listen, no matter how many times you say, "I'm willing to consider other viewpoints," you demonstrate that you will not do so in the vast majority of cases.

Most of your contributions to this topic blithely ignore anything that's in opposition to your own initial opinion that have come in as it's progressed.  This is pattern, and not isolated to this topic.

You are a clearly very, very intelligent person.  You are someone who also thinks deeply about a wide array of topics.  But you are rigid once you have reached your own conclusion, even when floods of counterpoints are presented.  That is what makes you unreasonable.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next.  We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

        ~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner 

 


Re: How is verbosity decided

 

On Thu, Dec 17, 2020 at 01:21 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:
because what Brian wanted to communicate (if I'm understanding his messages correctly) is that we (developers and users) should not mess with users minds. Habit is a strong force, and first impressions and experiences matter.
-
Precisely.  And even I will admit that what any given development team may have chosen as its defaults often drives me to drink.  But once I know what those are, and have been for long periods of time, I know on every fresh setup of a given piece of software (including operating systems) what my list of tweaks is, and can apply it reliably and without much thought after the initial thought that went into it.

I also just don't get why anyone cannot acknowledge the simple fact that one size fits all means, in reality, that one size fits none, and that tailoring is necessary.  It does not matter one bit what any given piece of software is configured like in its "out of the box" state.  Someone is going to hate all or part of whatever choices have been made.  Choosing defaults is a nontrivial exercise and, for those doing the choosing, a "Damned if you do, damned if you don't," situation in many cases.  And once you've picked 'em, you tend to keep 'em so you don't mess with people's heads, even if in the real world 90% of your existing users change certain somethings.  It's absolutely not a case of foolish consistency being the hobgoblin of little minds.  Precedent means something, and even bad but predictable precedent in your software allows you to keep your sanity over time.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next.  We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

        ~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner 

 


Re: How is verbosity decided

 

On Thu, Dec 17, 2020 at 02:30 PM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:

On 17 Dec 2020, at 10:42, g melconian wrote:

All, I think the best approach , is giving   the user choice and letting the  user customize what they see fit for their use case an work flow situations.  

I agree to a point, however won't that introduce a bloated situation ? I agree, but if we had the choice for 100 percent of things, I personally would not like it as there is just too much to take notes on etc. and the documentation would become way too much for any one person to handle.

-
But if you've ever looked at the settings for the JAWS screen reader, you will see that there are choices for many, many, many things.  There are also for NVDA, Windows 10, iOS, Android, etc.

No user likely ever even attempts to change well above 90% of what comes as default on any operating system or piece of software, but having the ability to do so if one so desires is built in to a huge number of complex systems.

No user is ever asked to make 100% of the choices, either, as that's the entire purpose of having defaults set.  I doubt anyone would ever have made it to day one of actual use with NVDA, JAWS, Windows, etc., if at the outset during setup you as the end user were require to make every single choice of configuration that the software allows.  It could take days, literally, for some software.

Defaults must be chosen.  Defaults are chosen.  Defaults will not be to every individual user's satisfaction.  Them's the facts, and it's never, ever going to be any different, because it can't be different.  And that's why I find this whole discussion exhausting, as I would think that each and every member of this group has been around computers and software long enough to understand why the first three sentences of this paragraph are axiomatic.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next.  We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

        ~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner 

 


Re: How is verbosity decided

 

Well having used other readers, compaired to all of them nvda is the best one for the modern web enabled interfaces of today.

Its fast and will run on whatever, its got a massive posibility of programs and extra modules, and while these can be dangerous to if not done right, the community is solid.

Jaws, is big and for companies.

But its been the same bloated feature rich software since year 0.

Having used it, like nvda I haven't needed extra stuff as such.

For me nvda is like a modern os with drivers for commen things and the rest you need to find.

I'd compair jaws to what windows 98 and earlier was like.

You needed drivers or in this case scripts for everything else it wouldn't work at all without them.

And modules cost a lot.

Since nvda uses a native scripting language allready in production, if mastered you can master everything from its modules to its core code to stuff in between.

There is even the ability to run developmental code from a scratchpad.

You can even run code internally from the internal python console if you want but obviously you won't be able to save it.

The oldest reader I have was and still is supernova.

dolphin are trying to improve but yeah it depends what you want.

It also depends what you use and what businesses will use.

If you run a lot of older non web programs, supernova is good at this.

If you want to run a lot of programs, especially for work and need extra enhanced and advanced programs over simple office and maybe other things then jaws is your baby.

If you just want to run the web and web enabled interfaces in general then thats nvda's strong point.

Nvda does not run with a lot of older stuff nicely but then the modern way is via a web interface, even thunderbird has some web elements in it.

On 18/12/2020 8:11 am, Bob Cavanaugh wrote:
Although I've stayed out of this discussion until now, I'll jump in
here. There's a reason NVDA is #2 in screen reader usage, a lot of
people see it as an alternative to JAWS. I personally have never been
able to afford JAWS, but now that I'm going to be using NVDA more
frequently and I have some money of my own, I'm considering becoming a
monthly doner. There are a few things I would like to say about
verbosity having come from mainly using System Access, this week being
the first in a long time that I haven't used it at all.
1. I find the verbosity of JAWS annoying at times. I don't need to
know that I pressed enter or tab when I am moving through items, or
every little thing in parenthesies. It is here I think NVDA does a
very good job.
2. I suspect that as landmarks become more common, they are going to
become a major source of navigation. For me, I came in about when they
were first appearing, and while System Access acknowledged a main by
starting to read from it, there was no way to navigate by them,
causing me to never get into the habit of using them.
3. Overall, I think the developers of NVDA have done a good job, and
while I've learned a lot from this list about configuration profiles,
I think there's one default that should be changed, as whenever I
install a new copy of NVDA, I can never remember what setting to
change. I think it's unchecking screen layout, but I'm not sure. It's
a setting that, when on by default, gives all the links in a row or in
context when using your arrow keys, rather than displaying them one at
a time. NVDA is the only screen reader I know of that displays links
in a big group like that by default. That being said, there are
programs that NVDA reads that don't read well in other screen readers,
and I appreciate that.

On 12/17/20, Shaun Everiss <sm.everiss@gmail.com> wrote:
I agree.

I like my settings as they are.

My biggest issue is with clickables, its bad coding on web pages I know
this but clickable all over the place, its one of the first thing I turn
off.

The other is screen layout because things seem to work better for me
without it.

I have also turned off column and table announcement because when I
brouse an ftp on the web I don't want to hear item 1052 of 85232 or
something like that when brousing an ftp server via the web.

Maybe we should have some conditions set for that when say brousing ftp
or other web directories when the user really doesn't want or need a
table or columns.

Luckily for me thats not a problem turning all the tables, rows and
columns off because I don't use office, but maybe there needs to be a
seperation between tables rows and columns for documents and for say the
web brouser, ie chrome, fire/waterfox, etc.

Thats probably about the only issue that really gets me right now.

I have also noticed that some settings, in context like emphasis font
change, etc may have had their origin in a certain situation, but
applying those settings in say a general web or standard every day
desktop navigation task just doesn't make sence.

In certain web apps and this is the tricky part some of all that may be
usefull but general web stuff well.

Another thing is that we should be able to export our configuration
profiles or have a way like addons where we can create a profile, upload
it somewhere and have a way to download it.

There are plenty of users on here and a lot of us have plenty of profiles.

I have a couple but I don't as a rule need to use profiles for my day to
day task.

I do a lot of admin work, testing work, etc.

If things get bad and from time to time they may, it may be necessary to
reinstall my device or the device I am working on and while I try to
avoid doing that, I can never be bothered at least for a while
recreating my profiles again so while I may have done it in the past I
have found unless I need to I don't bother now.



On 18/12/2020 4:27 am, Gene wrote:
We've heard from a few people saying they like this or that setting as
it is. I think it might be of real benefit to take a survey to
determine what most people, at least if enough respond, want.  It has
been traditional since the very early days when all this verbosity
became possible for screen-readers to announce it.  I haven't heard of
one survey of users done to find out what they want. Whether I am
right about what people want or not, I think my point is valid.  We
don't know if the amount of verbossity is what people want or not.

Gene

-----Original Message----- From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2020 9:17 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How is verbosity decided

On Thu, Dec 17, 2020 at 02:57 AM, Gene wrote:
If ;people think I'm wrong, is there some way to survey typical users?-
Gene, even if there were a survey, you just will not accept the fact
that what you, or I, or any given individual prefers does not mean
that many others will prefer it.

You have a good point in terms of a completely new product, or
feature, sometimes, but once something has been in wide release like
NVDA has, changing what have been defaults for features of
longstanding becomes way more trouble than it's worth.

There is absolutely something to your point about figures announcement
in that it should be able to be turned on/off at will.  As to the rest
of your position, not so much.  You cannot seem to take on the
information that multiple users have presented here that your opinion,
and desires, do not match theirs.  As a result, what you see fit to
have turned on/off by default is incongruent with what they would have
turned on/off by default.

In the end, and not just for screen readers, it is the absolute
obligation of the end user to seek assistance in customizing things to
their liking. No one at any software development house can ever create
something that makes everybody happy, and particularly as far as what
setting ship as default out of the box.  The tools exist to allow
users to create their own best experience and if they're concerned
with doing that then they need to explore them, with whatever
assistance is necessary, or alone if none whatsoever is available.
This isn't a blindness-related thing in any way. It simply is, and has
always been, for any piece of software.  The more complex the software
the more true it is if you're looking to get as close to exactly what
you prefer.

If you can't, or won't, acknowledge the absolute truth of the
preceding paragraph then you cannot be reasoned with.  No excuses
about "lack of training" or similar change it.





Re: How is verbosity decided

Sarah k Alawami
 


On 17 Dec 2020, at 10:42, g melconian wrote:

All, I think the best approach , is giving   the user choice and letting the  user customize what they see fit for their use case an work flow situations.  

I agree to a point, however won't that introduce a bloated situation ? I agree, but if we had the choice for 100 percent of things, I personally would not like it as there is just too much to take notes on etc. and the documentation would become way too much for any one person to handle. Oh, and when there are updates? ...


Re: How is verbosity decided

Bob Cavanaugh <cavbob1993@...>
 

Although I've stayed out of this discussion until now, I'll jump in
here. There's a reason NVDA is #2 in screen reader usage, a lot of
people see it as an alternative to JAWS. I personally have never been
able to afford JAWS, but now that I'm going to be using NVDA more
frequently and I have some money of my own, I'm considering becoming a
monthly doner. There are a few things I would like to say about
verbosity having come from mainly using System Access, this week being
the first in a long time that I haven't used it at all.
1. I find the verbosity of JAWS annoying at times. I don't need to
know that I pressed enter or tab when I am moving through items, or
every little thing in parenthesies. It is here I think NVDA does a
very good job.
2. I suspect that as landmarks become more common, they are going to
become a major source of navigation. For me, I came in about when they
were first appearing, and while System Access acknowledged a main by
starting to read from it, there was no way to navigate by them,
causing me to never get into the habit of using them.
3. Overall, I think the developers of NVDA have done a good job, and
while I've learned a lot from this list about configuration profiles,
I think there's one default that should be changed, as whenever I
install a new copy of NVDA, I can never remember what setting to
change. I think it's unchecking screen layout, but I'm not sure. It's
a setting that, when on by default, gives all the links in a row or in
context when using your arrow keys, rather than displaying them one at
a time. NVDA is the only screen reader I know of that displays links
in a big group like that by default. That being said, there are
programs that NVDA reads that don't read well in other screen readers,
and I appreciate that.

On 12/17/20, Shaun Everiss <sm.everiss@gmail.com> wrote:
I agree.

I like my settings as they are.

My biggest issue is with clickables, its bad coding on web pages I know
this but clickable all over the place, its one of the first thing I turn
off.

The other is screen layout because things seem to work better for me
without it.

I have also turned off column and table announcement because when I
brouse an ftp on the web I don't want to hear item 1052 of 85232 or
something like that when brousing an ftp server via the web.

Maybe we should have some conditions set for that when say brousing ftp
or other web directories when the user really doesn't want or need a
table or columns.

Luckily for me thats not a problem turning all the tables, rows and
columns off because I don't use office, but maybe there needs to be a
seperation between tables rows and columns for documents and for say the
web brouser, ie chrome, fire/waterfox, etc.

Thats probably about the only issue that really gets me right now.

I have also noticed that some settings, in context like emphasis font
change, etc may have had their origin in a certain situation, but
applying those settings in say a general web or standard every day
desktop navigation task just doesn't make sence.

In certain web apps and this is the tricky part some of all that may be
usefull but general web stuff well.

Another thing is that we should be able to export our configuration
profiles or have a way like addons where we can create a profile, upload
it somewhere and have a way to download it.

There are plenty of users on here and a lot of us have plenty of profiles.

I have a couple but I don't as a rule need to use profiles for my day to
day task.

I do a lot of admin work, testing work, etc.

If things get bad and from time to time they may, it may be necessary to
reinstall my device or the device I am working on and while I try to
avoid doing that, I can never be bothered at least for a while
recreating my profiles again so while I may have done it in the past I
have found unless I need to I don't bother now.



On 18/12/2020 4:27 am, Gene wrote:
We've heard from a few people saying they like this or that setting as
it is. I think it might be of real benefit to take a survey to
determine what most people, at least if enough respond, want.  It has
been traditional since the very early days when all this verbosity
became possible for screen-readers to announce it.  I haven't heard of
one survey of users done to find out what they want. Whether I am
right about what people want or not, I think my point is valid.  We
don't know if the amount of verbossity is what people want or not.

Gene

-----Original Message----- From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2020 9:17 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How is verbosity decided

On Thu, Dec 17, 2020 at 02:57 AM, Gene wrote:
If ;people think I'm wrong, is there some way to survey typical users?-
Gene, even if there were a survey, you just will not accept the fact
that what you, or I, or any given individual prefers does not mean
that many others will prefer it.

You have a good point in terms of a completely new product, or
feature, sometimes, but once something has been in wide release like
NVDA has, changing what have been defaults for features of
longstanding becomes way more trouble than it's worth.

There is absolutely something to your point about figures announcement
in that it should be able to be turned on/off at will.  As to the rest
of your position, not so much.  You cannot seem to take on the
information that multiple users have presented here that your opinion,
and desires, do not match theirs.  As a result, what you see fit to
have turned on/off by default is incongruent with what they would have
turned on/off by default.

In the end, and not just for screen readers, it is the absolute
obligation of the end user to seek assistance in customizing things to
their liking. No one at any software development house can ever create
something that makes everybody happy, and particularly as far as what
setting ship as default out of the box.  The tools exist to allow
users to create their own best experience and if they're concerned
with doing that then they need to explore them, with whatever
assistance is necessary, or alone if none whatsoever is available.
This isn't a blindness-related thing in any way. It simply is, and has
always been, for any piece of software.  The more complex the software
the more true it is if you're looking to get as close to exactly what
you prefer.

If you can't, or won't, acknowledge the absolute truth of the
preceding paragraph then you cannot be reasoned with.  No excuses
about "lack of training" or similar change it.





Re: How is verbosity decided

g melconian <gmelconian619@...>
 

All, I think the best approach , is giving   the user choice and letting the  user customize what they see fit for their use case an work flow situations. 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2020 7:17 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How is verbosity decided

 

On Thu, Dec 17, 2020 at 02:57 AM, Gene wrote:

If ;people think I'm wrong, is there some way to survey typical users?

-
Gene, even if there were a survey, you just will not accept the fact that what you, or I, or any given individual prefers does not mean that many others will prefer it.

You have a good point in terms of a completely new product, or feature, sometimes, but once something has been in wide release like NVDA has, changing what have been defaults for features of longstanding becomes way more trouble than it's worth.

There is absolutely something to your point about figures announcement in that it should be able to be turned on/off at will.  As to the rest of your position, not so much.  You cannot seem to take on the information that multiple users have presented here that your opinion, and desires, do not match theirs.  As a result, what you see fit to have turned on/off by default is incongruent with what they would have turned on/off by default.

In the end, and not just for screen readers, it is the absolute obligation of the end user to seek assistance in customizing things to their liking.  No one at any software development house can ever create something that makes everybody happy, and particularly as far as what setting ship as default out of the box.  The tools exist to allow users to create their own best experience and if they're concerned with doing that then they need to explore them, with whatever assistance is necessary, or alone if none whatsoever is available.  This isn't a blindness-related thing in any way.  It simply is, and has always been, for any piece of software.  The more complex the software the more true it is if you're looking to get as close to exactly what you prefer.

If you can't, or won't, acknowledge the absolute truth of the preceding paragraph then you cannot be reasoned with.  No excuses about "lack of training" or similar change it.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next.  We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

        ~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner 

 


Re: How is verbosity decided

 

To be honest, there shouldn't be 1 ring to rule them all but several.

Technologies are like that.

I have a laptop, I have a phone, I have a speaker.

I have a clock well at least 3 of thoes.

One time, 1 date and time, 1 alarm, time and timer, 1 recorder and everything else.

By themselves they handle a certain function.

I have several programs and at least 2 screen readers and even tts voices.

A lot of my stuff do the same thing but in a different way, some slight, some more so.

Not everything is the same.

I found this out the hard way when moving away from nero.

I had the same issue when moving away from norton, and others.

I have recently had the same issue when moving away from ocr software.

Granted what I have is an older ocr software package but it will work for me right now.

The same is with my web brouser.

The newer versions just don't work the same, I have an older version which doesn't crash.

I do have passive security tools which have worked for years and which are mostly updated and which will work for what I need.

If I need to I have edge chromium and internet explorer as backups.

I can also get chrome as well since just about everything else uses that here.

I have had bad experiences with the 1 ring thing.

I was going to get an ios device, had one, got all the material for it.

Then I had a crash, forgot about it, and was about to try again when my dad switched to an android.

He had a lot of trouble getting things over, and lost a lot of data because somethings just wouldn't move.

And I decided that I didn't want to jump into that ring anymore.

I plan to get something simple like a shell and maybe jump on the apple tab rout for everything else.

My point is that we need many things to make a hole, not everything can do everything.

My cd writing, extraction and editing programs went from 1 to 3, and one of them was payed for.

On 18/12/2020 5:43 am, Joseph Lee wrote:
Hi all,
Surveys were done to find out what people want from NVDA (look at calls by NV Access when the last survey came out a while ago).
As for the issue at hand: I think there is an unspoken, deeper issue that's giving folks headaches: perfectionism. We strive for a perfect software, a perfect productivity tool, a perfect screen reader, or a perfect "cure" for access issues to a point where we demand reality match ideals. Several people gave testimonials as to why that's not really the case, and I provided one pragmatic way of resolving verbosity issues, specifically element announcements.
One thing folks should think about is that machines are directed by humans. Technological progress such as artificial intelligence, augmented reality, and even screen reading may present an idea that machines are perfect and can do whatever they want. But behind bits, Bluetooth radios, and accessibility event handlers is humanity. World history has shown that, despite brilliant plans and inventions, humans are not perfect: sometimes making mistakes, or even leading others to suffer because of the way individuals interpret reality for their benefit. Humans are not perfect, therefore things designed by them carry this marker, and this applies to digital technology as well.
What I'm about to say is my own thought: several weeks ago I heard a comment (either from this list or somewhere) that NVDA community is saturated with perfectionism. I must say I agree with this analysis: we have become so dependent on NVDA to a point where we forget about the humanity of the community. We demand a more perfect screen reader and have forgotten to instill reflection of reality and pragmatism to our posterity. NVDA has become a god and a superhero, a troubling sign of imminent crises. Our devotion to NVDA gave birth to a "cult of productivity" that will come back to haunt the community later.
The biggest crisis the NVDA community will face and must confront in 2020's will be perfectionism and forgetting about stakeholders and their humanity. Marketing literature emphasize NVDA's benefits for users, especially first time computer users. But users are not the only stakeholders: developers, industry watchers, accessibility specs authors and implementers, and even folks outside of this community who are watching us carefully (this includes organizations such as various consumer advocacy groups, Microsoft, Mozilla, Google, and countless others). I heard anecdotes that criticized this community for focusing too much on the ideal, rather than available paths given the reality we are facing. I think this is a sign of perfectionism, specifically expecting NVDA to be the savior we've been waiting for. We must get rid of the mindset that NVDA is the perfect productivity companion. I intentionally used "the" to highlight the seriousness of this problem.
The first step to solving the overwhelming saturation of perfectionism within NVDA community is listing stakeholders and thinking about their humanity and relationships amongst them. What sustains a community is not the product, but level of trust among its members, and the first step in improving trust and relationships is recognizing who these stakeholders are. Users are not the only source of feedback for developers; they also watch market trends, and increasingly, industry specifications such as ARIA (Accessible Rich Internet Applications). But developers do not stop at reading specs and respond to user feedback: they also think about how different people and organizations interpret documentation. What makes developers both happy and angry is differing interpretations and implementations, which, at the philosophical level, shows that human beings are imperfect.
The second step, specifically for fellow developers and add-on authors, is to not put everything in version 1.0 of something. Do not put a fancy user interface in version 1 of an add-on. Release the basics in version 1, and then refine code based on subsequent feedback (this is perhaps my biggest headache I get when reviewing add-ons: attempts to satisfy the community and oneself by putting everything in version 1). In addition to recognizing other stakeholders besides users and understanding their humanity, developers must recognize that they are not gods - we are humans, therefore we are imperfect. The best we can do is listen to and learn from people.
The third step, specifically for users, is to broaden our assumptions and thought process. Users are not the only star in the universe. Just as many stars make the night sky bright, users should consider many things. As it is, one of the causes of saturated perfectionism is the "assumption cage" we locked ourselves into - trying to just apply old assumptions into new reality. It is important to learn lessons from the past and reflect them here. However, it is even more important to get away from the idea that we can just apply what worked in the past to the reality we are facing. I do know that I'm aiming the last bit at certain portion of the community who can't get rid of golden days of old screen readers and wish NVDA to emulate them. As much as old screen readers and their golden eras are great history lessons and we can learn many things from those times, NVDA is a different thing and faces its own issues. Simply put, do not apply your idea of a perfect screen reader to another entity without first checking out what you are facing; or to use terms I coined: do not become desensitized due to information blackout (that is, do not limit yourself to assumptions you already have i.e. be pragmatic at times and think beyond what you know and interact with).
I wrote the above statement both as a critique and to stir some reflection and dialogue. I know that I am an influencer, more so within the NVDA community. Although I do sing praises about NVDA, I believe it is my duty as a community member to offer suggestions and criticisms. I do know that my words do have an effect of swinging topics, therefore I weigh my words carefully. But at times, I believe honest and direct statements are better in terms of helping people confront the issues we are facing and will face in the coming years. And the whole discussion of element verbosity, and the deeper issues surrounding community saturation of perfectionism, is one of those moments where direct confrontation and philosophical pondering could be the best path forward. Please think, think carefully, and think carefully and critically again.
Hope this helps.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2020 7:28 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How is verbosity decided

We've heard from a few people saying they like this or that setting as it is. I think it might be of real benefit to take a survey to determine what most people, at least if enough respond, want. It has been traditional since the very early days when all this verbosity became possible for screen-readers to announce it. I haven't heard of one survey of users done to find out what they want. Whether I am right about what people want or not, I think my point is valid. We don't know if the amount of verbossity is what people want or not.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2020 9:17 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How is verbosity decided

On Thu, Dec 17, 2020 at 02:57 AM, Gene wrote:
If ;people think I'm wrong, is there some way to survey typical users?- Gene, even if there were a survey, you just will not accept the fact that what you, or I, or any given individual prefers does not mean that many others will prefer it.

You have a good point in terms of a completely new product, or feature, sometimes, but once something has been in wide release like NVDA has, changing what have been defaults for features of longstanding becomes way more trouble than it's worth.

There is absolutely something to your point about figures announcement in that it should be able to be turned on/off at will. As to the rest of your position, not so much. You cannot seem to take on the information that multiple users have presented here that your opinion, and desires, do not match theirs. As a result, what you see fit to have turned on/off by default is incongruent with what they would have turned on/off by default.

In the end, and not just for screen readers, it is the absolute obligation of the end user to seek assistance in customizing things to their liking.
No one at any software development house can ever create something that makes everybody happy, and particularly as far as what setting ship as default out of the box. The tools exist to allow users to create their own best experience and if they're concerned with doing that then they need to explore them, with whatever assistance is necessary, or alone if none whatsoever is available. This isn't a blindness-related thing in any way.
It simply is, and has always been, for any piece of software. The more complex the software the more true it is if you're looking to get as close to exactly what you prefer.

If you can't, or won't, acknowledge the absolute truth of the preceding paragraph then you cannot be reasoned with. No excuses about "lack of training" or similar change it.


Re: How is verbosity decided

 

I agree.

I like my settings as they are.

My biggest issue is with clickables, its bad coding on web pages I know this but clickable all over the place, its one of the first thing I turn off.

The other is screen layout because things seem to work better for me without it.

I have also turned off column and table announcement because when I brouse an ftp on the web I don't want to hear item 1052 of 85232 or something like that when brousing an ftp server via the web.

Maybe we should have some conditions set for that when say brousing ftp or other web directories when the user really doesn't want or need a table or columns.

Luckily for me thats not a problem turning all the tables, rows and columns off because I don't use office, but maybe there needs to be a seperation between tables rows and columns for documents and for say the web brouser, ie chrome, fire/waterfox, etc.

Thats probably about the only issue that really gets me right now.

I have also noticed that some settings, in context like emphasis font change, etc may have had their origin in a certain situation, but applying those settings in say a general web or standard every day desktop navigation task just doesn't make sence.

In certain web apps and this is the tricky part some of all that may be usefull but general web stuff well.

Another thing is that we should be able to export our configuration profiles or have a way like addons where we can create a profile, upload it somewhere and have a way to download it.

There are plenty of users on here and a lot of us have plenty of profiles.

I have a couple but I don't as a rule need to use profiles for my day to day task.

I do a lot of admin work, testing work, etc.

If things get bad and from time to time they may, it may be necessary to reinstall my device or the device I am working on and while I try to avoid doing that, I can never be bothered at least for a while recreating my profiles again so while I may have done it in the past I have found unless I need to I don't bother now.

On 18/12/2020 4:27 am, Gene wrote:
We've heard from a few people saying they like this or that setting as it is. I think it might be of real benefit to take a survey to determine what most people, at least if enough respond, want.  It has been traditional since the very early days when all this verbosity became possible for screen-readers to announce it.  I haven't heard of one survey of users done to find out what they want. Whether I am right about what people want or not, I think my point is valid.  We don't know if the amount of verbossity is what people want or not.

Gene

-----Original Message----- From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2020 9:17 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How is verbosity decided

On Thu, Dec 17, 2020 at 02:57 AM, Gene wrote:
If ;people think I'm wrong, is there some way to survey typical users?-
Gene, even if there were a survey, you just will not accept the fact that what you, or I, or any given individual prefers does not mean that many others will prefer it.

You have a good point in terms of a completely new product, or feature, sometimes, but once something has been in wide release like NVDA has, changing what have been defaults for features of longstanding becomes way more trouble than it's worth.

There is absolutely something to your point about figures announcement in that it should be able to be turned on/off at will.  As to the rest of your position, not so much.  You cannot seem to take on the information that multiple users have presented here that your opinion, and desires, do not match theirs.  As a result, what you see fit to have turned on/off by default is incongruent with what they would have turned on/off by default.

In the end, and not just for screen readers, it is the absolute obligation of the end user to seek assistance in customizing things to their liking. No one at any software development house can ever create something that makes everybody happy, and particularly as far as what setting ship as default out of the box.  The tools exist to allow users to create their own best experience and if they're concerned with doing that then they need to explore them, with whatever assistance is necessary, or alone if none whatsoever is available.  This isn't a blindness-related thing in any way. It simply is, and has always been, for any piece of software.  The more complex the software the more true it is if you're looking to get as close to exactly what you prefer.

If you can't, or won't, acknowledge the absolute truth of the preceding paragraph then you cannot be reasoned with.  No excuses about "lack of training" or similar change it.


Re: How is verbosity decided

 

Hi,
On further thought, I think a better term to describe my intention (asking folks to consider limitations of people and consider pragmatism) is expecting perfection. A subtle example is a theme that often comes up where people want NVDA to cover all cases in one go and expecting it to do it perfectly. I think part of that stems from NVDA's reputation that it will do its best to do something when given a chance while trying to minimize sacrificing performance. Another thing I do notice is folks asking NVDA to comply with standards that sometimes contradict how screen reader users actually meet these standards (I would go so far as verbosity settings confusion is partly an issue with how people interpret standards). A third variable is exposure to other screen readers and thinking one size fits all. The last two observations are what I wanted to communicate (given the reality and when considering pragmatist point of view). Of course we should come up with a unified ideal, but we should not forget that people have differing interpretations and practical considerations, and expecting NVDA to satisfy needs of all people doesn't quite align with the reality we have confronted, are confronting, and will confront.
In further reflection, I agree with Gene when talking about compromises, but also I think we should also weigh in what reality is teaching us, because what Brian wanted to communicate (if I'm understanding his messages correctly) is that we (developers and users) should not mess with users minds. Habit is a strong force, and first impressions and experiences matter.
I think part of the long statement I posted came about due to my habit of holding philosophy talks, and I apologize for that.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2020 9:03 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How is verbosity decided

What are examples of perfectionism? I am a user and I am not a developer.
I can't think like a developer because I'm not one, at least I can't think like a developer much of the time.

I'm willing to compromise or seek other means to achieve something, for example, in the verbosity discussion, having one setting for stopping quite a bit of verbosity or turning it on again might be a goode compromise.
Also, I'll present a strong argument about something if I think it is important but I don't expect perfectionn in that I know what I advocate will often not be incorporated.

I don't understand what you are advocating in that users will see things as users and others will see things in other ways. Are you advocating more tolerance or something else?

Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: Joseph Lee
Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2020 10:43 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How is verbosity decided

Hi all,
Surveys were done to find out what people want from NVDA (look at calls by NV Access when the last survey came out a while ago).
As for the issue at hand: I think there is an unspoken, deeper issue that's giving folks headaches: perfectionism. We strive for a perfect software, a perfect productivity tool, a perfect screen reader, or a perfect "cure" for access issues to a point where we demand reality match ideals. Several people gave testimonials as to why that's not really the case, and I provided one pragmatic way of resolving verbosity issues, specifically element announcements.
One thing folks should think about is that machines are directed by humans.
Technological progress such as artificial intelligence, augmented reality, and even screen reading may present an idea that machines are perfect and can do whatever they want. But behind bits, Bluetooth radios, and accessibility event handlers is humanity. World history has shown that, despite brilliant plans and inventions, humans are not perfect: sometimes making mistakes, or even leading others to suffer because of the way individuals interpret reality for their benefit. Humans are not perfect, therefore things designed by them carry this marker, and this applies to digital technology as well.
What I'm about to say is my own thought: several weeks ago I heard a comment (either from this list or somewhere) that NVDA community is saturated with perfectionism. I must say I agree with this analysis: we have become so dependent on NVDA to a point where we forget about the humanity of the community. We demand a more perfect screen reader and have forgotten to instill reflection of reality and pragmatism to our posterity. NVDA has become a god and a superhero, a troubling sign of imminent crises. Our devotion to NVDA gave birth to a "cult of productivity" that will come back to haunt the community later.
The biggest crisis the NVDA community will face and must confront in 2020's will be perfectionism and forgetting about stakeholders and their humanity.
Marketing literature emphasize NVDA's benefits for users, especially first time computer users. But users are not the only stakeholders: developers, industry watchers, accessibility specs authors and implementers, and even folks outside of this community who are watching us carefully (this includes organizations such as various consumer advocacy groups, Microsoft, Mozilla, Google, and countless others). I heard anecdotes that criticized this community for focusing too much on the ideal, rather than available paths given the reality we are facing. I think this is a sign of perfectionism, specifically expecting NVDA to be the savior we've been waiting for. We must get rid of the mindset that NVDA is the perfect productivity companion. I intentionally used "the" to highlight the seriousness of this problem.
The first step to solving the overwhelming saturation of perfectionism within NVDA community is listing stakeholders and thinking about their humanity and relationships amongst them. What sustains a community is not the product, but level of trust among its members, and the first step in improving trust and relationships is recognizing who these stakeholders are.
Users are not the only source of feedback for developers; they also watch market trends, and increasingly, industry specifications such as ARIA (Accessible Rich Internet Applications). But developers do not stop at reading specs and respond to user feedback: they also think about how different people and organizations interpret documentation. What makes developers both happy and angry is differing interpretations and implementations, which, at the philosophical level, shows that human beings are imperfect.
The second step, specifically for fellow developers and add-on authors, is to not put everything in version 1.0 of something. Do not put a fancy user interface in version 1 of an add-on. Release the basics in version 1, and then refine code based on subsequent feedback (this is perhaps my biggest headache I get when reviewing add-ons: attempts to satisfy the community and oneself by putting everything in version 1). In addition to recognizing other stakeholders besides users and understanding their humanity, developers must recognize that they are not gods - we are humans, therefore we are imperfect. The best we can do is listen to and learn from people.
The third step, specifically for users, is to broaden our assumptions and thought process. Users are not the only star in the universe. Just as many stars make the night sky bright, users should consider many things. As it is, one of the causes of saturated perfectionism is the "assumption cage" we locked ourselves into - trying to just apply old assumptions into new reality. It is important to learn lessons from the past and reflect them here. However, it is even more important to get away from the idea that we can just apply what worked in the past to the reality we are facing. I do know that I'm aiming the last bit at certain portion of the community who can't get rid of golden days of old screen readers and wish NVDA to emulate them. As much as old screen readers and their golden eras are great history lessons and we can learn many things from those times, NVDA is a different thing and faces its own issues. Simply put, do not apply your idea of a perfect screen reader to another entity without first checking out what you are facing; or to use terms I coined: do not become desensitized due to information blackout (that is, do not limit yourself to assumptions you already have i.e. be pragmatic at times and think beyond what you know and interact with).
I wrote the above statement both as a critique and to stir some reflection and dialogue. I know that I am an influencer, more so within the NVDA community. Although I do sing praises about NVDA, I believe it is my duty as a community member to offer suggestions and criticisms. I do know that my words do have an effect of swinging topics, therefore I weigh my words carefully. But at times, I believe honest and direct statements are better in terms of helping people confront the issues we are facing and will face in the coming years. And the whole discussion of element verbosity, and the deeper issues surrounding community saturation of perfectionism, is one of those moments where direct confrontation and philosophical pondering could be the best path forward. Please think, think carefully, and think carefully and critically again.
Hope this helps.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2020 7:28 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How is verbosity decided

We've heard from a few people saying they like this or that setting as it is. I think it might be of real benefit to take a survey to determine what most people, at least if enough respond, want. It has been traditional since the very early days when all this verbosity became possible for screen-readers to announce it. I haven't heard of one survey of users done to find out what they want. Whether I am right about what people want or not, I think my point is valid. We don't know if the amount of verbossity is what people want or not.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2020 9:17 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How is verbosity decided

On Thu, Dec 17, 2020 at 02:57 AM, Gene wrote:
If ;people think I'm wrong, is there some way to survey typical users?- Gene, even if there were a survey, you just will not accept the fact that what you, or I, or any given individual prefers does not mean that many others will prefer it.

You have a good point in terms of a completely new product, or feature, sometimes, but once something has been in wide release like NVDA has, changing what have been defaults for features of longstanding becomes way more trouble than it's worth.

There is absolutely something to your point about figures announcement in that it should be able to be turned on/off at will. As to the rest of your position, not so much. You cannot seem to take on the information that multiple users have presented here that your opinion, and desires, do not match theirs. As a result, what you see fit to have turned on/off by default is incongruent with what they would have turned on/off by default.

In the end, and not just for screen readers, it is the absolute obligation of the end user to seek assistance in customizing things to their liking.
No one at any software development house can ever create something that makes everybody happy, and particularly as far as what setting ship as default out of the box. The tools exist to allow users to create their own best experience and if they're concerned with doing that then they need to explore them, with whatever assistance is necessary, or alone if none whatsoever is available. This isn't a blindness-related thing in any way.
It simply is, and has always been, for any piece of software. The more complex the software the more true it is if you're looking to get as close to exactly what you prefer.

If you can't, or won't, acknowledge the absolute truth of the preceding paragraph then you cannot be reasoned with. No excuses about "lack of training" or similar change it.

--


Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:] Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next.
We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner


Re: How is verbosity decided

 

To be honest, its not just nvda, often when updates for windows come out or any software I sometimes have to set things to my liking.

Not everything will be what I want.



On 17/12/2020 10:14 pm, Quentin Christensen wrote:
Ok so there's two issues here:

Firstly, the new feature, reporting of figures.  I didn't write or review the code myself, but it appears the feature was added, and set to enabled automatically - possibly because, at the time, no UX was implemented for a toggle in the settings dialog.  To be honest, I don't know the exact rationale for enabling it by default (and I haven't yet had a chance to play with it enough to form an opinion on it myself).

Next is the issue of what options get enabled or disabled by default.  In fact, we add many features which are disabled by default, but of course the ones which are enabled, and which any given user doesn't want, are going to be immediately annoying.

Just for reference, there are 31 items in NVDA's document formatting settings.  Of those, 17, or just over half, are on by default.  Is it the right half?  That's going to be subjective, but suffice to say, we do try to strike a balance between enabling options by default, which the majority of users will find useful versus still providing but disabling by default, options which will be quite useful to a smaller subset of users..  Absolutely it's a difficult task - what you find an invaluably useful feature, another user might find incredibly annoying.

There is something to be said for sitting down with a complex piece of software, upon which you will rely quite heavily - like a screenreader (or even your email client, web browser, or other regularly used software), and going through the settings to work out what will work best for you.  I used to work for a blindness agency, and I used to go out to client's home or workplace and help them setup things like NVDA - and probably the most valuable hour or so I spent with them, was after we'd ascertained what would work best, sitting down with them, and setting it up to their needs.  Turning on features which THEY would use, and turning off features they wouldn't - Some users are comfortable doing this themselves, and for those who aren't, I would highly recommend finding either someone from an agency, or an NVDA Certified Expert, or someone, to sit with you, and go through the settings and get NVDA (or, to be honest, any technology you will rely on) setup to best meet your needs, it's time well spent.

Does that mean we can't improve the default settings?  Of course not, and if people have ideas on how we can improve that, as always, do please let us know.

On Thu, Dec 17, 2020 at 6:57 PM Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
I read the discussion and it looks to me like the kind of essoteric minutia
that leads to all sorts of things being spoken that don't benefit the
typical user, most people and that a lot of people won't know how to turn
off or that such reporting can be turned off.

For those who want this minute information, they can turn such reporting on.
And those who do want it are far more likely to know where to find such
settings.

This reminds me of the Ptolmaic versus the Copernican models of the
universe.  With the earth at the center of the universe, accounting for the
orbits of stars became increasingly complicated.  When the model was changed
and the earth was no longer the unmoving center of the universe, great
simplicity was achieved.

I see little benefit for a lot of users presenting ever-increasing detail.
Teach use of the find command, move by headings, move by numbered headings
and the use of the skip blocs of links commands and that is plenty to allow
efficient navigation for most people.  Every time something is added and on
by default, more distraction and more inefficiency is added to reading.
Most of the time, most people want to read information on the Internet for
reading, not for writing papers or other purposes where minute detail is
wanted or needed.  I strongly believe those are the uses and users that
should be considered when information to be spoken is considered in default
settings.

If I'm reading a magazine article, I don't want to hear something like list
with six items and two embeded lists when I come across information about
this or that subject.  I don't want to hear block quote, out of block quote
when an aaarticle says, according to Mr. Johnson, and then a quote from him.

If ;people think I'm wrong, is there some way to survey typical users?

I see no value  in using landmarks to find things on pages.  The search
command, move by heading and move by the skip blocks of links commands are
plenty.  Again, to an extent, how people are taught may determine what they
use and how.  Simplicity and efficiency in combination should, in my opinion
be an emphasis of the training material.  Rather than micromemorization, on
this page, move by heading level 3 to get here or there most efficiently, on
that page, move by heading level 2, etc. the minutia becomes absurd.  I've
seen people describe this means of navigation when  discussing how to find
something on a page on lists.  I'm not saying the training material teaches
it but I doubt it thoroughly teaches and emphasizes what I am describing
either and I think it should.  For example, on this [page search for opi n
to get to the opinion link.  On this site search for edito to get to the
editorial section.  Search for cont on most sites to find the contact link.
On a radio station, search for listen to get to a listen live or equivalent
link.

I have never seen these means of navigation taught to any extent and
emphasized.  I haven't see  the NVDA training material but if it doesn't
make a strong point of teaching this as a means of navigation, I strongly
believe it should.

On what sort of page and in what context is announcement of figure helpful?
I see it on The New York Times page but I see no useful pattern.  Its there
on this or that link and not there on a lot of links.  Moving by whatever
structure allows me to move in that way wouldn't benefit me in any
meaningful way, if at all.  I want to see what The Times has as its stories
on the home page.  Using h to move by heading is the most efficient way.
Hearing figure and out of figure when I'm reading an article or figure when
I move by heading from story to story headline is nothing but clutter.  Some
essoteric use may be made of this ihnformation but why is it on by default?

Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: Quentin Christensen
Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 2020 9:41 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How is verbosity decided


Hi Zahra,

2020.3 you mean?  Yes, looks like this was the issue involved:
https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/9485

The overall point in the what's new file is:

In Internet Explorer, Google Chrome and Mozilla Firefox, You can now
navigate by article and grouping using quick navigation scripts. These
scripts are unbound by default and can be assigned in the Input Gestures
dialog when the dialog is opened from a browse mode document. (#9485, #9227)
- Figures are also reported. They are considered objects and therefore
navigable with the o quick navigation key.


On Thu, Dec 17, 2020 at 2:35 PM zahra <nasrinkhaksar3@...> wrote:
quentin,
is nvda 2019.3 is the first version that nvda announces figure?
and may i ask in which github this feature was added to nvda?

On 12/17/20, Quentin Christensen <quentin@...> wrote:
> Firstly,
>
> Yes you are correct, figures are reported but there is currently no
> document formatting option to toggle that.  There is, however, an issue
> for
> that already - so do feel free to subscribe to that for updates on when it
> is updated: https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/10826
>
> The idea of including configuration profiles in NVDA itself is of course
> possible, but what would be included? (rhetorical question!)
>
> If we did that, then suddenly some programs would behave differently to
> others - or you'd really want to change a setting, and yet it wouldn't be
> changed in every program, and why does NVDA read this really useful
> information in Word but not Firefox?  It would cause more problems than it
> would solve, especially as how one user uses Word for instance, might be
> very different to how another user does.
>
> So the best solution, we feel, is to not have any configuration profiles
> setup by default, but to hopefully teach users how to access them.  I have
> put forward my idea for improving configuration profiles here:
> https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/10322 - as with any other issue,
> feel free to subscribe to that, or to add your own 2 cents to it if you
> have a point to add which hasn't been made already on the issue.
>
> The scripts term is a bit confusing.  Most of the time when people use it,
> they mean either Jaws scripts or NVDA add-ons.  In fact, the term has
> crept
> into our "What's new" document (in quite a few places as I look at it now)
> to mean a software function in NVDA itself.  For instance in 2020.3 one
> change was:
>
> "The Report formatting script (NVDA+f) has now been changed to report the
> formatting at the system caret rather than at the review cursor position.
> To report formatting at the review cursor position now use NVDA+shift+f.
> (#9505)"
>
> Which refers to NVDA's own internal routine which runs when a user presses
> NVDA+f.  So Gene's comment about NVDA using "scripts for various
> programs",
> is (I think I'm reading his intentions correctly) in line with that usage
> of the word, and I'm happy to put my hand up and say we can take the blame
> for that particular confusion :)
>
> Also the difference between bug report and feature request is more around
> the prompts in the template itself - the issue still ends up in the same
> place (as an issue), and several people have commented that we should
> actually add a few more of the prompt questions from the bug report
> template to the feature request template.  In essence, whatever you are
> reporting or requesting, try to include as much information as possible
> which might be relevant, even if it isn't explicitly asked.
>
> Quentin.
>
>
>
> On Thu, Dec 17, 2020 at 9:56 AM Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Dec 16, 2020 at 05:13 PM, Gene wrote:
>>
>> newly added announcement of figure and out of figure. I have found no
>> setting to control this announcement.
>>
>> -
>> I'll agree that:
>>
>> 1. This could be mighty annoying.
>> 2. It's something that should be toggle-able like most other document
>> formatting announcements are.
>>
>> My guess is that focus was on getting the function to work, but that
>> adding another checkbox to Document Formatting options slipped through
>> the
>> cracks.  I don't know whether such a request would be considered a bug
>> report versus feature request.  I'd be more inclined toward bug report,
>> as
>> there is a well established collection of settings that would seem to
>> have
>> been the ideal place to add a checkbox for this, but it didn't happen.
>>
>> --
>>
>> Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042
>>
>> [Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas
>> to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:]  *Pleased with the SCOTUS
>> ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train
>> goes next.  We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.*
>>
>>         ~ Brendan Buck, *former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul
>> Ryan and John Boehner*
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> --
> Quentin Christensen
> Training and Support Manager
>
> Web: www.nvaccess.org
> Training: https://www.nvaccess.org/shop/
> Certification: https://certification.nvaccess.org/
> User group: https://nvda.groups.io/g/nvda
> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
> Twitter: @NVAccess <https://twitter.com/NVAccess>
>
>
>
>
>
>


--
By God,
were I given all the seven heavens
with all they contain
in order that
I may disobey God
by depriving an ant
from the husk of a grain of barley,
I would not do it.
imam ali









--

Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager


Web: www.nvaccess.org
Training: https://www.nvaccess.org/shop/
Certification: https://certification.nvaccess.org/
User group: https://nvda.groups.io/g/nvda
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
Twitter: @NVAccess









--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager


Re: How TO Use Windows 10 OCR

Gene
 

I see my suggestion is covered in this message.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Joseph Lee
Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2020 11:02 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How TO Use Windows 10 OCR



Hi,

I know that one person reported this observation on GitHub, and I think someone proposed a message to be shown when this combination is active (attempting to do an OCR while screen curtain is on).

Cheers,

Joseph





From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2020 9:00 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How TO Use Windows 10 OCR





On Thu, Dec 17, 2020 at 11:49 AM, Bhavya shah wrote:



Just wondering: is Windows 10 OCR not working when screen curtain is enabled a known and documented issue, and if so, is it something that can be possibly fixed?



-
This was a great catch on Artin's part! It is not documented in the User Guide, and really should be.

My guess, and that's all it is, is that this is not fixable if what the OCR does is, for all practical intents and purposes, scan the screen display buffer as though it were an image. Using screen curtain functions keeps that buffer constantly "blanked," so there would be nothing to scan. It's a Catch-22. I'll be curious to see if my guess has any connection to reality, and there are a couple of regulars here who can likely confirm or refute off the top of their heads.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:] Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next. We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner


Re: How TO Use Windows 10 OCR

Gene
 

If the situation can't be changed, can the program announce that the screen curtain is on and must be turned off when the user attempts to perform OCR?

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2020 11:00 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How TO Use Windows 10 OCR

On Thu, Dec 17, 2020 at 11:49 AM, Bhavya shah wrote:
Just wondering: is Windows 10 OCR not working when screen curtain is enabled a known and documented issue, and if so, is it something that can be possibly fixed?-
This was a great catch on Artin's part! It is not documented in the User Guide, and really should be.

My guess, and that's all it is, is that this is not fixable if what the OCR does is, for all practical intents and purposes, scan the screen display buffer as though it were an image. Using screen curtain functions keeps that buffer constantly "blanked," so there would be nothing to scan. It's a Catch-22. I'll be curious to see if my guess has any connection to reality, and there are a couple of regulars here who can likely confirm or refute off the top of their heads.

--


Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:] Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next. We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner


Re: How is verbosity decided

Gene
 

What are examples of perfectionism? I am a user and I am not a developer. I can't think like a developer because I'm not one, at least I can't think like a developer much of the time.

I'm willing to compromise or seek other means to achieve something, for example, in the verbosity discussion, having one setting for stopping quite a bit of verbosity or turning it on again might be a goode compromise. Also, I'll present a strong argument about something if I think it is important but I don't expect perfectionn in that I know what I advocate will often not be incorporated.

I don't understand what you are advocating in that users will see things as users and others will see things in other ways. Are you advocating more tolerance or something else?

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Joseph Lee
Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2020 10:43 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How is verbosity decided

Hi all,
Surveys were done to find out what people want from NVDA (look at calls by NV Access when the last survey came out a while ago).
As for the issue at hand: I think there is an unspoken, deeper issue that's giving folks headaches: perfectionism. We strive for a perfect software, a perfect productivity tool, a perfect screen reader, or a perfect "cure" for access issues to a point where we demand reality match ideals. Several people gave testimonials as to why that's not really the case, and I provided one pragmatic way of resolving verbosity issues, specifically element announcements.
One thing folks should think about is that machines are directed by humans. Technological progress such as artificial intelligence, augmented reality, and even screen reading may present an idea that machines are perfect and can do whatever they want. But behind bits, Bluetooth radios, and accessibility event handlers is humanity. World history has shown that, despite brilliant plans and inventions, humans are not perfect: sometimes making mistakes, or even leading others to suffer because of the way individuals interpret reality for their benefit. Humans are not perfect, therefore things designed by them carry this marker, and this applies to digital technology as well.
What I'm about to say is my own thought: several weeks ago I heard a comment (either from this list or somewhere) that NVDA community is saturated with perfectionism. I must say I agree with this analysis: we have become so dependent on NVDA to a point where we forget about the humanity of the community. We demand a more perfect screen reader and have forgotten to instill reflection of reality and pragmatism to our posterity. NVDA has become a god and a superhero, a troubling sign of imminent crises. Our devotion to NVDA gave birth to a "cult of productivity" that will come back to haunt the community later.
The biggest crisis the NVDA community will face and must confront in 2020's will be perfectionism and forgetting about stakeholders and their humanity. Marketing literature emphasize NVDA's benefits for users, especially first time computer users. But users are not the only stakeholders: developers, industry watchers, accessibility specs authors and implementers, and even folks outside of this community who are watching us carefully (this includes organizations such as various consumer advocacy groups, Microsoft, Mozilla, Google, and countless others). I heard anecdotes that criticized this community for focusing too much on the ideal, rather than available paths given the reality we are facing. I think this is a sign of perfectionism, specifically expecting NVDA to be the savior we've been waiting for. We must get rid of the mindset that NVDA is the perfect productivity companion. I intentionally used "the" to highlight the seriousness of this problem.
The first step to solving the overwhelming saturation of perfectionism within NVDA community is listing stakeholders and thinking about their humanity and relationships amongst them. What sustains a community is not the product, but level of trust among its members, and the first step in improving trust and relationships is recognizing who these stakeholders are. Users are not the only source of feedback for developers; they also watch market trends, and increasingly, industry specifications such as ARIA (Accessible Rich Internet Applications). But developers do not stop at reading specs and respond to user feedback: they also think about how different people and organizations interpret documentation. What makes developers both happy and angry is differing interpretations and implementations, which, at the philosophical level, shows that human beings are imperfect.
The second step, specifically for fellow developers and add-on authors, is to not put everything in version 1.0 of something. Do not put a fancy user interface in version 1 of an add-on. Release the basics in version 1, and then refine code based on subsequent feedback (this is perhaps my biggest headache I get when reviewing add-ons: attempts to satisfy the community and oneself by putting everything in version 1). In addition to recognizing other stakeholders besides users and understanding their humanity, developers must recognize that they are not gods - we are humans, therefore we are imperfect. The best we can do is listen to and learn from people.
The third step, specifically for users, is to broaden our assumptions and thought process. Users are not the only star in the universe. Just as many stars make the night sky bright, users should consider many things. As it is, one of the causes of saturated perfectionism is the "assumption cage" we locked ourselves into - trying to just apply old assumptions into new reality. It is important to learn lessons from the past and reflect them here. However, it is even more important to get away from the idea that we can just apply what worked in the past to the reality we are facing. I do know that I'm aiming the last bit at certain portion of the community who can't get rid of golden days of old screen readers and wish NVDA to emulate them. As much as old screen readers and their golden eras are great history lessons and we can learn many things from those times, NVDA is a different thing and faces its own issues. Simply put, do not apply your idea of a perfect screen reader to another entity without first checking out what you are facing; or to use terms I coined: do not become desensitized due to information blackout (that is, do not limit yourself to assumptions you already have i.e. be pragmatic at times and think beyond what you know and interact with).
I wrote the above statement both as a critique and to stir some reflection and dialogue. I know that I am an influencer, more so within the NVDA community. Although I do sing praises about NVDA, I believe it is my duty as a community member to offer suggestions and criticisms. I do know that my words do have an effect of swinging topics, therefore I weigh my words carefully. But at times, I believe honest and direct statements are better in terms of helping people confront the issues we are facing and will face in the coming years. And the whole discussion of element verbosity, and the deeper issues surrounding community saturation of perfectionism, is one of those moments where direct confrontation and philosophical pondering could be the best path forward. Please think, think carefully, and think carefully and critically again.
Hope this helps.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2020 7:28 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How is verbosity decided

We've heard from a few people saying they like this or that setting as it is. I think it might be of real benefit to take a survey to determine what most people, at least if enough respond, want. It has been traditional since the very early days when all this verbosity became possible for screen-readers to announce it. I haven't heard of one survey of users done to find out what they want. Whether I am right about what people want or not, I think my point is valid. We don't know if the amount of verbossity is what people want or not.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2020 9:17 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How is verbosity decided

On Thu, Dec 17, 2020 at 02:57 AM, Gene wrote:
If ;people think I'm wrong, is there some way to survey typical users?- Gene, even if there were a survey, you just will not accept the fact that what you, or I, or any given individual prefers does not mean that many others will prefer it.

You have a good point in terms of a completely new product, or feature, sometimes, but once something has been in wide release like NVDA has, changing what have been defaults for features of longstanding becomes way more trouble than it's worth.

There is absolutely something to your point about figures announcement in that it should be able to be turned on/off at will. As to the rest of your position, not so much. You cannot seem to take on the information that multiple users have presented here that your opinion, and desires, do not match theirs. As a result, what you see fit to have turned on/off by default is incongruent with what they would have turned on/off by default.

In the end, and not just for screen readers, it is the absolute obligation of the end user to seek assistance in customizing things to their liking.
No one at any software development house can ever create something that makes everybody happy, and particularly as far as what setting ship as default out of the box. The tools exist to allow users to create their own best experience and if they're concerned with doing that then they need to explore them, with whatever assistance is necessary, or alone if none whatsoever is available. This isn't a blindness-related thing in any way.
It simply is, and has always been, for any piece of software. The more complex the software the more true it is if you're looking to get as close to exactly what you prefer.

If you can't, or won't, acknowledge the absolute truth of the preceding paragraph then you cannot be reasoned with. No excuses about "lack of training" or similar change it.

--


Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:] Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next.
We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner


Re: How TO Use Windows 10 OCR

 

Hi,

I know that one person reported this observation on GitHub, and I think someone proposed a message to be shown when this combination is active (attempting to do an OCR while screen curtain is on).

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2020 9:00 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How TO Use Windows 10 OCR

 

On Thu, Dec 17, 2020 at 11:49 AM, Bhavya shah wrote:

Just wondering: is Windows 10 OCR not working when screen curtain is enabled a known and documented issue, and if so, is it something that can be possibly fixed?

-
This was a great catch on Artin's part!  It is not documented in the User Guide, and really should be.

My guess, and that's all it is, is that this is not fixable if what the OCR does is, for all practical intents and purposes, scan the screen display buffer as though it were an image.  Using screen curtain functions keeps that buffer constantly "blanked," so there would be nothing to scan.  It's a Catch-22.  I'll be curious to see if my guess has any connection to reality, and there are a couple of regulars here who can likely confirm or refute off the top of their heads.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next.  We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

        ~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner 

 


Re: How TO Use Windows 10 OCR

 

On Thu, Dec 17, 2020 at 11:49 AM, Bhavya shah wrote:
Just wondering: is Windows 10 OCR not working when screen curtain is enabled a known and documented issue, and if so, is it something that can be possibly fixed?
-
This was a great catch on Artin's part!  It is not documented in the User Guide, and really should be.

My guess, and that's all it is, is that this is not fixable if what the OCR does is, for all practical intents and purposes, scan the screen display buffer as though it were an image.  Using screen curtain functions keeps that buffer constantly "blanked," so there would be nothing to scan.  It's a Catch-22.  I'll be curious to see if my guess has any connection to reality, and there are a couple of regulars here who can likely confirm or refute off the top of their heads.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next.  We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

        ~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner 

 


Re: Using the NVDA Dictionaries to Alter Pronunciations

 

Downloadable set of step-by-step instructions:  Using the NVDA Dictionaries with Regular Expression Matching to Change Pronunciations (docx)

 


I also added a bit of discussion about both the Whole Word and Anywhere Type options.  I'll also add my warning about the Anywhere type again, here:  If it's to be used at all, it must be used with extreme caution.  I strongly suggest it never be used.  See the tutorial for an example of why.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next.  We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

        ~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner 

 


Re: How TO Use Windows 10 OCR

Bhavya shah
 

Dear all,

Thank you Brian and Joseph for your inputs, but I had accounted for
those considerations. Artin, screen curtain was the factor I was
missing - thanks a lot for pointing that out! I disabled screen
curtain temporarily and read the scanning results of some graphics.
Just wondering: is Windows 10 OCR not working when screen curtain is
enabled a known and documented issue, and if so, is it something that
can be possibly fixed?

Thanks.

On 12/17/20, Artin Dekker <groepen@artindekker.com> wrote:
Hi Bhavya,
Another thing to check, is screen curtain disabled? The OCR does not
work when screen curtain is enabled.

Kind regards/Vriendelijke groet,
Artin Dekker
groepen@artindekker.com

Op 16-12-2020 om 17:00 schreef Bhavya shah:
Dear all,

I am using NVDA 2020.3 on Windows 10's latest stable build. Whenever I
focus on a graphic on the web and press NVDA+R, NVDA says:
"Recognizing"
"Result document"
After that, I arrow up and down, move the review cursor around, but to
no avail as NVDA keeps saying "blank" consistently. I then need to
press Esc to go back to the graphic where I was, essentially returning
to where I started. I would note that I do not have the Tessarac OCR
add-on installed as I would like to leverage Windows 10 OCR. I am not
sure if I am doing something wrong, if I need to configure something
differently, or am somehow missing the scanned results.

I would truly appreciate any assistance in getting the hang of using
the Windows 10 OCR functionality via NVDA.

Thanks.




--
Best Regards
Bhavya Shah
Stanford University | Class of 2024
E-mail Address: bhavya.shah125@gmail.com
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/bhavyashah125/

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