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locked Re: Thunderbird talking way too much

 

Ron,

         Accessibility is like all other things in that, "You can't please all of the people all of the time," and there is the added bonus of trying to decide what information to expose to a screen reader.   I have tried to explain, from a sighted perspective, just how much of what appears on any screen that those of us who see do ignore - we just filter it out as non-significant background clutter - except on the very rare occasion we might have an occasion to use it.  And a great deal of this kind of stuff is truly never attended to visually or otherwise by a majority of users.  Some of it is there as much for troubleshooting purposes as anything else.

         Joseph Lee first introduced me to the concept of "information blackout" for screen reader users, and because I had already tutored many in learning basic skills the concept immediately clicked.  As someone with sight, I can take in the entire gestalt of the screen and, without even realizing I'm doing it, processing information so that I know what to attend to and what to ignore.  A screen reader user can never do this and, even worse, is largely at the mercy of how well something is coded (particularly web pages) in terms of what the screen reader itself encounters first and presents to them.  If you rely on just sitting there and letting the screen reader read for anything other than completely unfamiliar material, you end up wasting a huge amount of time, and sometimes do for even unfamiliar material.  Using things like the screen reader search function, when you are virtually certain that the thing you are looking for is present and you know what word(s) would identify it, is what lets you zero in on the actual content you want.  That and using things like the NVDA elements lists to "hit the high points" in exploring material quickly rather than hoping you'll trip over something via reading.  But even if you are the perfect, ultra efficient screen reader user, you will still never be 100% certain that you've seen/heard everything, and that's even if you allow a read all from the start.  You really can't take it all in at once and do a preliminary filtering, and in any visual medium (and all print media like web pages, magazines, etc.) are visual media.

               The Thunderbird status line has always been visible by default, but it clearly has not had its content exposed to screen readers in the manner it is being exposed now.  I understood instantly what the problem was when I was watching and listening to someone using beta Thunderbird, and why it would drive one to madness in short order.  I can't imagine how few instances there would be in daily life where a screen reader user would give a fig about information being presented by the status bar when they are in the midst of actually reading e-mail.  It's an absolute intrusion, and one that doesn't allow you to absorb the content of your message nor the status bar in any useful way as well.  

                Someone made a boo boo.  Who knows who, or why, but at least it can be remedied if identified.  And even though turning off the status bar works, since it's on by default and you probably don't care about it then it's worth telling the Thunderbird folks what a hash this change has made.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363  

Power is being told you're not loved and not being destroyed by it.

       ~ Madonna

 

 


locked Re: Thunderbird talking way too much

Ron Canazzi
 

Hi Rob,

Boy do you make some good points here.  I used to be a private beta tester for JAWS way back.  Back in 2004, the anti virus program Trend Micro Internet Security was almost totally accessible. Beginning in 2008, they went from a  menu driven system to an HTML type interface.  However, the HTML interface was not standard.  I took it upon myself to launch a kind of crusade to get the developers to realize that this change made most aspects of Trend Micro Internet Security inaccessible. You could see many of the controls, but you could not interact with check boxes or buttons.

I went round and round both with e-mails and even via 800 tech support.  After about three weeks, they kept elevating me to supposedly higher levels of development. Finally, three weeks into this odyssey, they via telephone, put me in contact with the head developer.  When I went through my by this time memorized description of the issue, he replied in broken English: "How Do Ya use a computer if you blind?"  Nothing came of this and as far as I know, the program such as it is is still largely inaccessible.

See what I mean.

On 4/9/2020 1:34 PM, Rob Hudson wrote:
Brian Vogel <@britechguy> wrote:
My point, which seems to have eluded you, is that I constantly see complaints about issues, but when I (or you, or anyone else) bring up the fact that you must report them if you want to have any hope of their being resolved there is generally nothing but the proverbial crickets in response.
This is likely because too many screen reader users have seen the, sorry but I can't duplicate this. Next! Message in response. In addition, there are some larger issues.
Much of the accessibility stack is integrated into the frameworks needed to build the applications; coders of the actual applications built within the framework itself rarely go out of their way to make their appications accessible. That their apps built with the framework are accessible is a happy coincidence. In other words the fact that Firefox and Thunderbird are largely accessible with screen readers is not necessarily due to someone at Mozilla going, hmm, lets open up NVDA/Jaws/whatever and see how this new feature works--although organizations like Mozilla <em>do</em> in fact have some a11y testers. I don't know how many programmers are actually screen reader users there, however. But anyway the accessibility support is there because the coding frameworks they use to construct the applications have basic accessibility built in to them. witness such browsers as Pale Moon, which have this infrastructure removed and which are almost completely unusable with screen readers.
Speaking in general about bug reporting. When you report an issue about an application not working with your screen reader, it is likely you're going to get a, wow, I didn't know about screen readers, response. Because the developers did not know their applications could be used at all by us. Then, you'll either get responses that fall into three categories:
1. Sorry, but I don't know anything about screen readers, so I don't know what to do to fix it. Thank you for your support.
2. Well, let's see if we can make it work. What do I need to do to make this thing work with your ... screen reader?
3. Crickets.
In category one, you're pretty much out of luck. In category two, unless you know about programming there's not much you can do either. And of course in ccategory three, again, out of luck.
This is a basic summary of why a lot of screen reader users don't report bugs. Yes, doing so may be helpful in a lot of cases, ut in most of them, it can be a futile exercise.

--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


locked Re: Thunderbird talking way too much

Ron Canazzi
 

Hi Brian,

I and many others do file bug reports.  I don't buy this stuff you keep promoting about lazy, good for nothing blind people.  As a private beta tester and overall ravel rouses, I can't count the number of e-mails to software developers I have sent.  The real issue is that the software developers are many times just plain insensitive to these complaints.  This does not mean we shouldn't try, but simply condemning all blind people or most blind people in the way you do is not valid.


On 4/9/2020 12:57 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
On Thu, Apr 9, 2020 at 12:42 PM, Gene wrote:
My question is why this wasn’t caught by reports from blind people before the release version.
Gene, do you honestly think that there were many, if any, based on what has been seen here and on other screen reader and associated technology groups?

My point, which seems to have eluded you, is that I constantly see complaints about issues, but when I (or you, or anyone else) bring up the fact that you must report them if you want to have any hope of their being resolved there is generally nothing but the proverbial crickets in response.

I have no reason to believe, based on what I have observed on multiple blind technology related groups, that most (and I do mean most, the vast majority most) screen reader users have ever filed a trouble ticket/bug report.  And until or unless they do they should not expect prompt attention to issues that may not even have been recognized.

Each user demographic is and should be responsible for advocating for themselves by reporting the issues they encounter to those who can fix them.  No one else will, or should.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363  

Power is being told you're not loved and not being destroyed by it.

       ~ Madonna

 

 


-- 
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


locked Re: Thunderbird talking way too much

 

On Thu, Apr 9, 2020 at 03:47 PM, Gene wrote:
at the same time, it shouldn’t be almost all our responsibility.
Sorry, (and that's without snark) but it is always going to be "almost all our responsibility" when it comes to advocacy for tiny minorities.  It just goes with the territory.

That's something I tried to teach all of my clients when I was doing brain injury rehab, too.  No one knows what it's like, really, to actually live with one, if they aren't actually doing just that and those who are compose a minuscule part of the human population.  Speaking up for yourselves is the only way you'll be heard, and that generally requires virtually continual effort.  It just goes with the territory and your numbers.

And while I think it would be absolutely fabulous were every software development company to be able to recruit a decent cadre of screen reader users for testing, I don't ever see that happening.   To be a professional tester you generally need to be very proficient not only with a screen reader but with the underlying software being tested and that combination doesn't come around often.  But I definitely think that all companies could come up with the accessibility testing equivalent of the Microsoft Insiders program, where folks volunteer to test as a part of their daily, casual use of the next generation of program X and are expected to file issue reports as needed.  You are absolutely correct that direct outreach is likely the only way that any sort of critical mass in accessibility users doing accessibility testing will ever occur.  To be honest, even if that outreach is done, I am not convinced that it ever will.  But that doesn't make the effort not worth undertaking, as it would undoubtedly be an improvement.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363  

Power is being told you're not loved and not being destroyed by it.

       ~ Madonna

 

 


locked Re: Thunderbird talking way too much

Ron Canazzi
 

Hi Brian,

Your analysis is probably correct, but I am wondering just why the issue didn't exist in versions of Thunderbird earlier than 60.9.  Remember, before that time, the status line was visible, but screen readers: JAWS and NVDA didn't report all dynamic changes.  It was there and you could read it with the hotkey for status line. 

With the reintroduction of the status line, we now have this problem.  I wonder if NVDA programers can do something to change this--perhaps coming up with some sort of display silently and invoking reading with hotkey.


On 4/9/2020 10:38 AM, Brian Vogel wrote:
My guess is that the good folks at Thunderbird had gotten complaints that it was impossible to know, for instance, whether all new e-mail had completed downloading when you fired up T-bird at the start of the day, and decided to expose a lot more information presented on the status bar to the screen reader.

What they probably hadn't counted on is the fact that a screen reader will detect changes and read them as they're detected, and that's really, really irritating if you're reading your e-mail messages and status stuff just barges in while doing so.

If they have sighted folks doing testing for these new functions, it wouldn't surprise me if they just sat there when the status bar was really active watching to see that it was being reported correctly, never moving along like one normally would into reading messages.  And I can get that, as even though I have the status bar displayed, I virtually never look at it at all.  The occasional glance occurs, but I wouldn't really miss it at all if it weren't there by default.

It's well-nigh impossible for most of us who see to have any real idea of exactly how screen reader users typically approach using various pieces of software (and I include myself, though I do have at least some idea at this point).  And there will never be enough in-house actual screen reader users doing accessibility testing.  That's one of the reasons I push so hard to get folks who encounter accessibility issues to file bug/issue/trouble reports with the companies that produce the software.  You all are able to give a far more accurate description of what the software is doing that you don't want with the screen reader as well as what the preferred behavior would be.  Also, given your years of end-user experience, you're often in a far better position to know whether the issue you're having is with the screen reader or due to a change in the software you're using the screen reader to access, and that's often the key to getting to the root of the problem as well as the fix.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363  

Power is being told you're not loved and not being destroyed by it.

       ~ Madonna

 

 


-- 
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


locked Re: Thunderbird talking way too much

Gene
 

I’m glad you have seen that amount of progress.  I know there has been saignificant improvement but still, when I see things like companies that take an interest in accessibility not following through, it really gets old and it is the case that, along with the improvements far too often, it appears to me the simple principle of ongoing proper follow through by making sure there are blind people who evaluate new developing versions is not done.  I keep seeing, over time, different programs that were accessible becoming less so over time or developing new problems.  II’m not talking about programs where the whole architecture changes, I’m talking about examples such as we see in Thunderbird and such as with programs that release inaccessible versions more than once and fix them perhaps months or more later.
 
It is important in such cases, for users of such programs to let the developers know of the need to actively recruit knowledgeable blind people to try new developmental releases and beta versions and report problems.
 
My previous message was written because I see this common sense practice not being followed and I’m tired of blind people being not consistently dealt with in ways such as this. While its true that a lot of the responsibility needs to be on us because we are a small group, chronically misunderstood and about which most people know little, at the same time, it shouldn’t be almost all our responsibility.  Things are changing and what was considered acceptable forty years ago isn’t now.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
From: Gene
Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2020 1:49 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Thunderbird talking way too much
 
Which completely misses the point.  Why should blind people be different from other minorities.  Affirmative action has been around since the seventies.  It is expected that when dealing with minorities, institutions will affirmatively take certain actions.  Blind people are a small group, but it is right and proper that there should be an expectation that entities will affirmatively do something rather than we always being in a position to constantly educate and educate and educate. 
 
I’m not saying that blind people shouldn’t educate.  I’m saying that its beyond time for the attitude to change from its all on us to its partly on you.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2020 1:07 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Thunderbird talking way too much
 
On Thu, Apr 9, 2020 at 01:52 PM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:
Take mee6. The developers basically ,looked at NvDa said, We can't help you" and just ignored every other bug report I submitted. In fact they only give me sigted instructions like 'drag this to that." Yeah, I've seen all of this before.
And, again, so?   This gives you instant feedback that the developers of this product care not one whit about accessibility.  That, in and of itself, tells you to abandon hope and seek an alternative.

In this world, all of us have been subjected to something like this, though not necessarily specific to accessibility.  You shake the dust from your sandals and move along in the attempt to find a tool that works.

Also, you really do have to understand that many sighted people don't understand that drag and drop is not something that blind people do.  Very often you can end up educating support reps about keyboard shortcuts and how to find them.  There is no logical reason to believe that most of the sighted world does or ever will know nearly what you know about keyboard shortcuts and many other aspects of how blind people use computers.  So it is up to you to make the attempt to educate.

As a seeing person who has been intimately involved with accessibility for some time now, I am finding that the lack of recognition on the accessibility users side about why things are the way they are, much of it due to pure ignorance on the part of the majority of sighted people, mystifying.  Why on earth would you expect your average Joe or Jane sitting at a help desk, who might never have even spoken to an accessibility software user before, to just know this stuff?  That's exactly how and why dedicated help lines have come into existence at major players like Microsoft and Google, to name two.  It's completely unreasonable to believe that most of the sighted world should know one darned thing about screen readers, or that they even exist.  The blind community is very, very small as a proportion of all computer users.  Resources get allocated based on that, and I can only imagine what fraction of a percent of all calls to help desks come from screen reader users.  That matters, and needs to be taken into consideration.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363  

Power is being told you're not loved and not being destroyed by it.

       ~ Madonna

 

 


locked Re: Thunderbird talking way too much

cecropia64
 

i think it was Mike who suggested turning off the status bar.  i did this and it worked fine.  it works for me like it used to before i upgraded.

On 4/9/2020 3:44 PM, Ron Canazzi wrote:
Hi Group,

Well, I also am seeing the latest version of Thunderbird talking way too much.  For about two years, the updates past version 60.8 did not read the status line properly.  Now with 68.7, the status line has returned, but it seems that every action that you perform that causes a change to the status line is now vocalized.  This is entirely too much verbiage. A clumsy work around is to perform an action and then quickly invoke the read line function with insert + up arrow and then go on to perform a new action.  This works best for doing a filtered delete.  By this I mean that I have messages filtered into folders and grouped by conversation.  When doing a browse and delete in each folder, after I select with standard shift + up/down arrows and want to move on for a mass deletion, rather than waiting for the status line to read out, I do the selection, then press the read line keystroke and then continue the shift + down arrow keystroke to continue to highlight the messages I want to delete. It's clumsy but once you get used to it, it does work.

Since this install allows me to stay current with security issues in Thunderbird, I think I'll keep the 68.7 version.  I like being current and having the status line read in some form. Maybe they'll tweak the program a little more for accessibility in future updates.

This is the time when a JAWS frame type feature would be good. You could create the frame around the status line and make it silent and only readable with the hotkey.


On 4/9/2020 9:57 AM, matthew dyer wrote:
Hi,


Getting the same thing.  Hope they can find a fix for this. Thanks.


Matthew



On 4/8/2020 5:44 PM, Roger Stewart wrote:
I just upgraded Thunderbird to the latest version.  I'm getting a lot of unwanted feedback telling me every time I delete a message how many messages have been moved to trash and how many unread messages are in the inbox.  I hope a fix can be found to turn this off.  Maybe someone might find it useful, and if this is so, then a toggle to turn it on or off would be good.


Roger






locked Re: Thunderbird talking way too much

Ron Canazzi
 

Hi Group,

OK, you can hide the status bar, but then you won't have it readable until you show it again.

On 4/9/2020 12:46 PM, matthew dyer wrote:
Marry,



I just ran into this same problem.  Try this.  Go the view menu and right error to the toolbars and enter on status bar to hide it and this should saulve your problem.  Thanks.


Matthew



On 4/8/2020 2:56 PM, Mary Otten wrote:
Hi all,


I just updated Thunderbird, and all of a sudden, it is talking way too much. For instance, each time I delete a message, I hear about how that message was deleted and added to trash, or some such. There are other announcements as well, rendering the experience entirely too verbose and inefficient for getting through email. I'm using the latest nvda, and as far as I know, there haven't been changes to the mozilla apps enhancements add on which I have been using without incident until now. My t-bird version is 68.7.0; it just updated to that.


Mary




--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


locked Re: Thunderbird talking way too much

Ron Canazzi
 

Hi Group,

Well, I also am seeing the latest version of Thunderbird talking way too much.  For about two years, the updates past version 60.8 did not read the status line properly.  Now with 68.7, the status line has returned, but it seems that every action that you perform that causes a change to the status line is now vocalized.  This is entirely too much verbiage. A clumsy work around is to perform an action and then quickly invoke the read line function with insert + up arrow and then go on to perform a new action.  This works best for doing a filtered delete.  By this I mean that I have messages filtered into folders and grouped by conversation.  When doing a browse and delete in each folder, after I select with standard shift + up/down arrows and want to move on for a mass deletion, rather than waiting for the status line to read out, I do the selection, then press the read line keystroke and then continue the shift + down arrow keystroke to continue to highlight the messages I want to delete. It's clumsy but once you get used to it, it does work.

Since this install allows me to stay current with security issues in Thunderbird, I think I'll keep the 68.7 version.  I like being current and having the status line read in some form. Maybe they'll tweak the program a little more for accessibility in future updates.

This is the time when a JAWS frame type feature would be good.  You could create the frame around the status line and make it silent and only readable with the hotkey.

On 4/9/2020 9:57 AM, matthew dyer wrote:
Hi,


Getting the same thing.  Hope they can find a fix for this. Thanks.


Matthew



On 4/8/2020 5:44 PM, Roger Stewart wrote:
I just upgraded Thunderbird to the latest version.  I'm getting a lot of unwanted feedback telling me every time I delete a message how many messages have been moved to trash and how many unread messages are in the inbox.  I hope a fix can be found to turn this off.  Maybe someone might find it useful, and if this is so, then a toggle to turn it on or off would be good.


Roger




--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


Re: How can I get the date from a Braille display?

 

By the way, and not using a braille display, when I wanted to get the date announced when NVDA was running I did hold down NVDA then hit F12 twice in rapid succession.

The original post makes me think that NVDA+F12,NVDA+F12 was being pressed twice in rapid succession.  I used NVDA+F12 followed by just F12 in rapid succession, never releasing the NVDA key before both F12s were pressed.   I got the Save dialog in word, or the show elements panel in Brave, if I did NVDA+F12, released NVDA and then hit F12 again quickly.  But never when I depress NVDA, keep it held, and then hit two F12s in rapid succession before releasing NVDA.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363  

Power is being told you're not loved and not being destroyed by it.

       ~ Madonna

 

 


Re: How can I get the date from a Braille display?

 

On Thu, Apr 9, 2020 at 10:47 AM, Daniel Gartmann wrote:
On my Freedom Scientific Focus40 Blue, I can’t seem to do two presses quickly of NVDA+F12. The second press of F12 just sends an F12 through and I get the Save As dialog.
As bizarre as this may sound, I wonder if this might be something related to how FS has implemented this that is linked to JAWS somehow.  I was just reading through the Owner's Guide for the Focus 40 Blue and in the section entitled, Focus Keyboard Commands Overview, it states, "Focus commands are consistently based on JAWS and Windows commands. If you are familiar with JAWS and Windows keyboard commands, Focus commands are very easy to learn. If you become familiar with Focus commands, JAWS and Windows keyboard commands are also easy to learn."

It makes me think that it may not be passing through what one might think it's passing through to NVDA.  You might want to contact FS support about this, as they should be able to give a definitive answer.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363  

Power is being told you're not loved and not being destroyed by it.

       ~ Madonna

 

 


Re: How can I get the date from a Braille display?

David Griffith
 

No he says he is then getting the normal Save as dialogue you get when doing a single press of F12

 

David Griffith

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Sarah k Alawami
Sent: 09 April 2020 19:19
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How can I get the date from a Braille display?

 

I don't use a braille display, and You I think said you did this but what happens if you use insert f12, f12, then look at your display. Does the date show then? Sorry if I seem stupid, but I am in terms of braille displays. Lool!

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On 9 Apr 2020, at 10:56, Daniel Gartmann wrote:

 

 

Yes. This would work. But I want the same, convenient way of reading the date without leaving the application I am working in, but from my Braille keyboard.

 

If I use Windows+b, I am taken out of the application and have to get back to it using Alt+tab.

 

Thanks for the input.

 

Daniel

 

 

 

Fra: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> På vegne af David Griffith
Sendt: 9. april 2020 17:19
Til: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Emne: Re: [nvda] How can I get the date from a Braille display?

 

I cannot completely vouch for this working with a braille display as I am only just getting to grips with this myself but using a qwerty keyboards windows B and arrowing until focus is on the clock will announce not just the time but the date with speech in NVDA.

I hope that you get the same result with a braille display.

David Griffith

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Daniel Gartmann
Sent: 09 April 2020 15:47
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] How can I get the date from a Braille display?

 

 

Hi all,

 

On a laptop keyboard, I am able to get the date by pressing NVDA F12 twice quickly.

 

On my Freedom Scientific Focus40 Blue, I can’t seem to do two presses quickly of NVDA+F12. The second press of F12 just sends an F12 through and I get the Save As dialog.

 

Any suggestions greatly appreciated.

 

Daniel

 

 


Re: google chrome version 81

Eilana Benish
 

Hi

As far as reading PDF files I am strongly recommend reading with dedicated PDF readers especially with Adobe reader .

From my experience I think that Mozilla Firefox is the best browser ever as far as Accessibility and also security best support.

Sorry Google love you, but on other apps …

 


‫בתאריך יום ה׳, 9 באפר׳ 2020 ב-20:03 מאת ‪Brian Vogel‬‏ <‪britechguy@...‬‏>:‬

On Thu, Apr 9, 2020 at 12:35 PM, mohammad suliman wrote:
I have reported it on Chromium bug tracker:
And a huge, massively huge thank you from me for having done so!!   Now if others activate that link, navigate to what NVDA announces as the "Star border" button (I think) and continues to say "to star this issue," and activates that button, we'll be getting somewhere.

In addition to bug reports like this, which are vital, the mechanisms that allow other users to effectively make the statement, "Hey, I've got this issue, too," by using them is what makes an issue bubble up in the priority for attention queue.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363  

Power is being told you're not loved and not being destroyed by it.

       ~ Madonna

 

 



--

 ובכבוד רב | Sincerely,

אילנה בניש מורשה נגישות שירות 2200 | Eilana Benish, service Accessibility authorized (2200)

ניהול פרויקטים – נגישות ושמישות אינטרנט וטכנולוגיות מידע  | Projects manager – Accessibility & usability on internet and ICT

📱 +972-50-7100367 | 📧 benish.ilana@...


locked Re: Thunderbird talking way too much

 

On Thu, Apr 9, 2020 at 02:42 PM, Gene wrote:
The developers of Firefox and Thunderbird have intentionally made their programs accessible.
There's nothing exceptional about that.   Virtually every major player in the software world has cared about accessibility for a while now.

Having been in software development from the mid-1980s through late 1990s, I can say definitively that accessibility was a second thought, if that, for the vast majority of software companies then.  Even those that did it did a pretty lousy job of it, too.  It just wasn't taken seriously.  That has changed, and in a big way.

Accessibility principles in coding are now taught in many, if not most, computer science degree programs.  Accessibility is no longer being grafted on as an afterthought, but baked in.   And I can assure you, this is not because anyone makes any money on this, in fact, it costs quite a bit that will never be made back in hard cash.  But, what all major companies want, not quite as much as hard cash but still want, is to burnish their images by "doing good" or "doing what's right."  Mind you, they're not doing either of those things for those reasons, but because it's good PR, and good PR is worth its weight in platinum.

Not ever having been inside during this era, I can't say how accessibility development and testing is actually handled by the various companies, but I'll bet they each have their own methods.   But no matter how good the development and testing, there will always be issues that crop up, and I beg those who find them to report them.  If a given company has expended great effort on accessibility it only makes sense that they want these reports.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363  

Power is being told you're not loved and not being destroyed by it.

       ~ Madonna

 

 


locked Re: Thunderbird talking way too much

Gene
 

Which completely misses the point.  Why should blind people be different from other minorities.  Affirmative action has been around since the seventies.  It is expected that when dealing with minorities, institutions will affirmatively take certain actions.  Blind people are a small group, but it is right and proper that there should be an expectation that entities will affirmatively do something rather than we always being in a position to constantly educate and educate and educate. 
 
I’m not saying that blind people shouldn’t educate.  I’m saying that its beyond time for the attitude to change from its all on us to its partly on you.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2020 1:07 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Thunderbird talking way too much
 
On Thu, Apr 9, 2020 at 01:52 PM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:
Take mee6. The developers basically ,looked at NvDa said, We can't help you" and just ignored every other bug report I submitted. In fact they only give me sigted instructions like 'drag this to that." Yeah, I've seen all of this before.
And, again, so?   This gives you instant feedback that the developers of this product care not one whit about accessibility.  That, in and of itself, tells you to abandon hope and seek an alternative.

In this world, all of us have been subjected to something like this, though not necessarily specific to accessibility.  You shake the dust from your sandals and move along in the attempt to find a tool that works.

Also, you really do have to understand that many sighted people don't understand that drag and drop is not something that blind people do.  Very often you can end up educating support reps about keyboard shortcuts and how to find them.  There is no logical reason to believe that most of the sighted world does or ever will know nearly what you know about keyboard shortcuts and many other aspects of how blind people use computers.  So it is up to you to make the attempt to educate.

As a seeing person who has been intimately involved with accessibility for some time now, I am finding that the lack of recognition on the accessibility users side about why things are the way they are, much of it due to pure ignorance on the part of the majority of sighted people, mystifying.  Why on earth would you expect your average Joe or Jane sitting at a help desk, who might never have even spoken to an accessibility software user before, to just know this stuff?  That's exactly how and why dedicated help lines have come into existence at major players like Microsoft and Google, to name two.  It's completely unreasonable to believe that most of the sighted world should know one darned thing about screen readers, or that they even exist.  The blind community is very, very small as a proportion of all computer users.  Resources get allocated based on that, and I can only imagine what fraction of a percent of all calls to help desks come from screen reader users.  That matters, and needs to be taken into consideration.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363  

Power is being told you're not loved and not being destroyed by it.

       ~ Madonna

 

 


Re: another thunderbird issue with focus loss this time

Mary Otten
 

Alas, disabling that junk settings thing didn't help. Yes, I did restart the program after making the change.


It is driving me nuts!


Mary

On 4/8/2020 9:46 PM, Tyler Spivey wrote:
Try going to Tools, Account Settings, Junk Settings, and unchecking Enable adaptive junk mail controls for this account.

On 4/8/2020 5:33 PM, Mary Otten wrote:
There is another issue that has cropped up since the update today. If you arrow in your message list and hit a message that t-bird thinks might be junk, some sort of box comes up informing you of that fact and offering choices, one of which is a button labeled "not junk". Press space on that, and what I expect to happen would be that I'd be put back in my messages list. But what seems to happen is that I'm some how stuck in the first part of the message that t-bird thought might be junk. I can't get out of that. The only thing I can do is close the app and re-open. What a waste of time! I've never seen this dialogue before about what t-bird thinks is junk, and I don't want to see it. If I think it is junk, I'll act accordingly, and  don't need an app interfering. How can I get rid of that?


\Mary




locked Re: Thunderbird talking way too much

Gene
 

The developers of Firefox and Thunderbird have intentionally made their programs accessible. Part of doing so on an ongoing basis is to take the affirmative action of recruiting blind people to test new builds of these programs.  Not doing so is not implementing what is expedcted in terms of making programs properly accessible on an ongoing basis. 
 
If they don’t do this, and if other developers don’t do this who have expressed an interest or willingness to make their programs accessible, such as the developers of Malware Bytes, blind people should contact them and try to get them to do this. 
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
----- Original Message -----
From: Rob Hudson
Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2020 12:34 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Thunderbird talking way too much
 
Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:
> My point, which seems to have eluded you, is that I constantly see complaints about issues, but when I (or you, or anyone else) bring up the fact that you must report them if you want to have any hope of their being resolved there is generally nothing but the proverbial crickets in response.

This is likely because too many screen reader users have seen the, sorry but I can't duplicate this. Next! Message in response. In addition, there are some larger issues.
Much of the accessibility stack is integrated into the frameworks needed to build the applications; coders of the actual applications built within the framework itself rarely go out of their way to make their appications accessible. That their apps built with the framework are accessible is a happy coincidence. In other words the fact that Firefox and Thunderbird are largely accessible with screen readers is not necessarily due to someone at Mozilla going, hmm, lets open up NVDA/Jaws/whatever and see how this new feature works--although organizations like Mozilla <em>do</em> in fact have some a11y testers. I don't know how many programmers are actually screen reader users there, however. But anyway the accessibility support is there because the coding frameworks they use to construct the applications have basic accessibility built in to them. witness such browsers as Pale Moon, which have this infrastructure removed and which are almost completely unusable with screen readers.
Speaking in general about bug reporting. When you report an issue about an application not working with your screen reader, it is likely you're going to get a, wow, I didn't know about screen readers, response. Because the developers did not know their applications could be used at all by us. Then, you'll either get responses that fall into three categories:
1. Sorry, but I don't know anything about screen readers, so I don't know what to do to fix it. Thank you for your support.
2. Well, let's see if we can make it work. What do I need to do to make this thing work with your ... screen reader?
3. Crickets.
In category one, you're pretty much out of luck. In category two, unless you know about  programming there's not much you can do either. And of course in ccategory three, again, out of luck.
This is a basic summary of why a lot of screen reader users don't report bugs. Yes, doing so may be helpful in a lot of cases, ut in most of them, it can be a futile exercise.



locked Re: Thunderbird talking way too much

Gene
 

You would expect interested blind users to receive alpha and beta releases and send comments.  And if there aren’t, Mozilla should recruit testers.  It is just plain bad procedure not to have releases evaluated by such users as a matter of policy and that is why so many programs such as Malware Bytes, are accessible in one version, have serious accessibility problems in the next, and then are finally fixed in a later release.
 
Gene
----- Original Message [-----

Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2020 11:57 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Thunderbird talking way too much
 
On Thu, Apr 9, 2020 at 12:42 PM, Gene wrote:
My question is why this wasn’t caught by reports from blind people before the release version.
Gene, do you honestly think that there were many, if any, based on what has been seen here and on other screen reader and associated technology groups?

My point, which seems to have eluded you, is that I constantly see complaints about issues, but when I (or you, or anyone else) bring up the fact that you must report them if you want to have any hope of their being resolved there is generally nothing but the proverbial crickets in response.

I have no reason to believe, based on what I have observed on multiple blind technology related groups, that most (and I do mean most, the vast majority most) screen reader users have ever filed a trouble ticket/bug report.  And until or unless they do they should not expect prompt attention to issues that may not even have been recognized.

Each user demographic is and should be responsible for advocating for themselves by reporting the issues they encounter to those who can fix them.  No one else will, or should.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363  

Power is being told you're not loved and not being destroyed by it.

       ~ Madonna

 

 


Re: How can I get the date from a Braille display?

Sarah k Alawami
 

I don't use a braille display, and You I think said you did this but what happens if you use insert f12, f12, then look at your display. Does the date show then? Sorry if I seem stupid, but I am in terms of braille displays. Lool!

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On 9 Apr 2020, at 10:56, Daniel Gartmann wrote:

 

 

Yes. This would work. But I want the same, convenient way of reading the date without leaving the application I am working in, but from my Braille keyboard.

 

If I use Windows+b, I am taken out of the application and have to get back to it using Alt+tab.

 

Thanks for the input.

 

Daniel

 

 

 

Fra: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> På vegne af David Griffith
Sendt: 9. april 2020 17:19
Til: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Emne: Re: [nvda] How can I get the date from a Braille display?

 

I cannot completely vouch for this working with a braille display as I am only just getting to grips with this myself but using a qwerty keyboards windows B and arrowing until focus is on the clock will announce not just the time but the date with speech in NVDA.

I hope that you get the same result with a braille display.

David Griffith

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Daniel Gartmann
Sent: 09 April 2020 15:47
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] How can I get the date from a Braille display?

 

 

Hi all,

 

On a laptop keyboard, I am able to get the date by pressing NVDA F12 twice quickly.

 

On my Freedom Scientific Focus40 Blue, I can’t seem to do two presses quickly of NVDA+F12. The second press of F12 just sends an F12 through and I get the Save As dialog.

 

Any suggestions greatly appreciated.

 

Daniel

 


locked Re: Thunderbird talking way too much

 

On Thu, Apr 9, 2020 at 01:52 PM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:
Take mee6. The developers basically ,looked at NvDa said, We can't help you" and just ignored every other bug report I submitted. In fact they only give me sigted instructions like 'drag this to that." Yeah, I've seen all of this before.
And, again, so?   This gives you instant feedback that the developers of this product care not one whit about accessibility.  That, in and of itself, tells you to abandon hope and seek an alternative.

In this world, all of us have been subjected to something like this, though not necessarily specific to accessibility.  You shake the dust from your sandals and move along in the attempt to find a tool that works.

Also, you really do have to understand that many sighted people don't understand that drag and drop is not something that blind people do.  Very often you can end up educating support reps about keyboard shortcuts and how to find them.  There is no logical reason to believe that most of the sighted world does or ever will know nearly what you know about keyboard shortcuts and many other aspects of how blind people use computers.  So it is up to you to make the attempt to educate.

As a seeing person who has been intimately involved with accessibility for some time now, I am finding that the lack of recognition on the accessibility users side about why things are the way they are, much of it due to pure ignorance on the part of the majority of sighted people, mystifying.  Why on earth would you expect your average Joe or Jane sitting at a help desk, who might never have even spoken to an accessibility software user before, to just know this stuff?  That's exactly how and why dedicated help lines have come into existence at major players like Microsoft and Google, to name two.  It's completely unreasonable to believe that most of the sighted world should know one darned thing about screen readers, or that they even exist.  The blind community is very, very small as a proportion of all computer users.  Resources get allocated based on that, and I can only imagine what fraction of a percent of all calls to help desks come from screen reader users.  That matters, and needs to be taken into consideration.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363  

Power is being told you're not loved and not being destroyed by it.

       ~ Madonna