Date   

locked Re: Thunderbird talking way too much

David Goldfield
 

Hello. Is this bug you are referencing on Bugzilla or on NVDA's Github? Would you mind providing a direct link to the bug? I'd be happy to add to it if such additions are needed.

David Goldfield,
Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist
JAWS Certified, 2019

WWW.DavidGoldfield.org

On 4/9/2020 6:22 PM, Shaun Everiss wrote:
well I have reported this

Bug 1628891 - Thunderbird talks to much.

You can add to this with your replies and comments, go nuts and put your bit.

Thunderbird like firefox and a few other things do have their base in the chromium engine.

That actually does bring up something, I wander if there are any other chrome or chromium like email clients with similar interface to thunderbird.



On 10/04/2020 9:56 am, David Goldfield wrote:
Also, hiding the status bar only solves the problem of the extra information being spoken when you delete a message. There are other occasions where unwanted speech will still occur.

If this issue has not been reported in Bugzilla I am more than willing to do so but I confess I won't have time to do this until Saturday at the earliest. The real solution is to do this. Since this seems to primarily affect NVDA I'm wondering if NV Access might be able to release an interim update which works around this issue. Ideally, the developer of the software should be the ones to correct issues like this and, once the issue has been properly reported, I predict that this will happen. However, sometimes screen reader developers may choose to see if a workaround can be added to an update to their product and I'm wondering how feasible this might be for NV Access. Filing this issue in their github certainly wouldn't hurt. Worst case scenario: they may not be able to correct it on NVDA's side of the house or it may take more resources than they can invest but it can't hurt to try.


David Goldfield,
Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist
JAWS Certified, 2019

https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.davidgoldfield.org%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7C34242fd65ac64012b56308d7dcd477a5%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637220677398273763&sdata=m54QLJlduZGirKurWRbHugE%2FBSO9RzEETSyY1RQuUW4%3D&reserved=0

On 4/9/2020 3:45 PM, Ron Canazzi wrote:
Hi Group,

OK, you can hide the status bar, but then you won't have it readable until you show it again.


On 4/9/2020 12:46 PM, matthew dyer wrote:
Marry,



I just ran into this same problem.  Try this.  Go the view menu and right error to the toolbars and enter on status bar to hide it and this should saulve your problem.  Thanks.


Matthew



On 4/8/2020 2:56 PM, Mary Otten wrote:
Hi all,


I just updated Thunderbird, and all of a sudden, it is talking way too much. For instance, each time I delete a message, I hear about how that message was deleted and added to trash, or some such. There are other announcements as well, rendering the experience entirely too verbose and inefficient for getting through email. I'm using the latest nvda, and as far as I know, there haven't been changes to the mozilla apps enhancements add on which I have been using without incident until now. My t-bird version is 68.7.0; it just updated to that.


Mary







locked Re: Thunderbird talking way too much

 

well I have reported this

Bug 1628891 - Thunderbird talks to much.

You can add to this with your replies and comments, go nuts and put your bit.

Thunderbird like firefox and a few other things do have their base in the chromium engine.

That actually does bring up something, I wander if there are any other chrome or chromium like email clients with similar interface to thunderbird.

On 10/04/2020 9:56 am, David Goldfield wrote:
Also, hiding the status bar only solves the problem of the extra information being spoken when you delete a message. There are other occasions where unwanted speech will still occur.

If this issue has not been reported in Bugzilla I am more than willing to do so but I confess I won't have time to do this until Saturday at the earliest. The real solution is to do this. Since this seems to primarily affect NVDA I'm wondering if NV Access might be able to release an interim update which works around this issue. Ideally, the developer of the software should be the ones to correct issues like this and, once the issue has been properly reported, I predict that this will happen. However, sometimes screen reader developers may choose to see if a workaround can be added to an update to their product and I'm wondering how feasible this might be for NV Access. Filing this issue in their github certainly wouldn't hurt. Worst case scenario: they may not be able to correct it on NVDA's side of the house or it may take more resources than they can invest but it can't hurt to try.


David Goldfield,
Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist
JAWS Certified, 2019

WWW.DavidGoldfield.org

On 4/9/2020 3:45 PM, Ron Canazzi wrote:
Hi Group,

OK, you can hide the status bar, but then you won't have it readable until you show it again.


On 4/9/2020 12:46 PM, matthew dyer wrote:
Marry,



I just ran into this same problem.  Try this.  Go the view menu and right error to the toolbars and enter on status bar to hide it and this should saulve your problem.  Thanks.


Matthew



On 4/8/2020 2:56 PM, Mary Otten wrote:
Hi all,


I just updated Thunderbird, and all of a sudden, it is talking way too much. For instance, each time I delete a message, I hear about how that message was deleted and added to trash, or some such. There are other announcements as well, rendering the experience entirely too verbose and inefficient for getting through email. I'm using the latest nvda, and as far as I know, there haven't been changes to the mozilla apps enhancements add on which I have been using without incident until now. My t-bird version is 68.7.0; it just updated to that.


Mary






locked Bug Reports: Thunderbird talks too much

 

hi all.

Well, I've reported this bug in bugzilla and was able to signin with my github.

I am following this bug and such.

this is the summery and number.

Bug 1628891 - Thunderbird talks to much.

Weather that actually means anything, who knows.

If other users want to reply to this and voice their issue with this bug it would be good.

Now lets hope I am actually doing the right thing as this is my first bug report with this system.

Thank god I can report bugs with github.


locked Re: Thunderbird talking way too much

Gene
 

 
but this isn’t an NVDA problem.  I suspect there is some way that speech is being forced, perhaps as in Chrome during downloads.  It would be interesting as a test to move away from the program window while something is changing such as when downloading messages to see if NVDA still speaks whatever speech is occuring in the window.  In Chrome when a file is downloading, speech is forced whether you are in the program window or not. 
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2020 2:53 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Thunderbird talking way too much
 
Hi Brian,

Your analysis is probably correct, but I am wondering just why the issue didn't exist in versions of Thunderbird earlier than 60.9.  Remember, before that time, the status line was visible, but screen readers: JAWS and NVDA didn't report all dynamic changes.  It was there and you could read it with the hotkey for status line. 

With the reintroduction of the status line, we now have this problem.  I wonder if NVDA programers can do something to change this--perhaps coming up with some sort of display silently and invoking reading with hotkey.


On 4/9/2020 10:38 AM, Brian Vogel wrote:
My guess is that the good folks at Thunderbird had gotten complaints that it was impossible to know, for instance, whether all new e-mail had completed downloading when you fired up T-bird at the start of the day, and decided to expose a lot more information presented on the status bar to the screen reader.

What they probably hadn't counted on is the fact that a screen reader will detect changes and read them as they're detected, and that's really, really irritating if you're reading your e-mail messages and status stuff just barges in while doing so.

If they have sighted folks doing testing for these new functions, it wouldn't surprise me if they just sat there when the status bar was really active watching to see that it was being reported correctly, never moving along like one normally would into reading messages.  And I can get that, as even though I have the status bar displayed, I virtually never look at it at all.  The occasional glance occurs, but I wouldn't really miss it at all if it weren't there by default.

It's well-nigh impossible for most of us who see to have any real idea of exactly how screen reader users typically approach using various pieces of software (and I include myself, though I do have at least some idea at this point).  And there will never be enough in-house actual screen reader users doing accessibility testing.  That's one of the reasons I push so hard to get folks who encounter accessibility issues to file bug/issue/trouble reports with the companies that produce the software.  You all are able to give a far more accurate description of what the software is doing that you don't want with the screen reader as well as what the preferred behavior would be.  Also, given your years of end-user experience, you're often in a far better position to know whether the issue you're having is with the screen reader or due to a change in the software you're using the screen reader to access, and that's often the key to getting to the root of the problem as well as the fix.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363  

Power is being told you're not loved and not being destroyed by it.

       ~ Madonna

 

 


-- 
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


locked Re: Thunderbird talking way too much

David Goldfield
 

Also, hiding the status bar only solves the problem of the extra information being spoken when you delete a message. There are other occasions where unwanted speech will still occur.

If this issue has not been reported in Bugzilla I am more than willing to do so but I confess I won't have time to do this until Saturday at the earliest. The real solution is to do this. Since this seems to primarily affect NVDA I'm wondering if NV Access might be able to release an interim update which works around this issue. Ideally, the developer of the software should be the ones to correct issues like this and, once the issue has been properly reported, I predict that this will happen. However, sometimes screen reader developers may choose to see if a workaround can be added to an update to their product and I'm wondering how feasible this might be for NV Access. Filing this issue in their github certainly wouldn't hurt. Worst case scenario: they may not be able to correct it on NVDA's side of the house or it may take more resources than they can invest but it can't hurt to try.


David Goldfield,
Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist
JAWS Certified, 2019

WWW.DavidGoldfield.org

On 4/9/2020 3:45 PM, Ron Canazzi wrote:
Hi Group,

OK, you can hide the status bar, but then you won't have it readable until you show it again.


On 4/9/2020 12:46 PM, matthew dyer wrote:
Marry,



I just ran into this same problem.  Try this.  Go the view menu and right error to the toolbars and enter on status bar to hide it and this should saulve your problem.  Thanks.


Matthew



On 4/8/2020 2:56 PM, Mary Otten wrote:
Hi all,


I just updated Thunderbird, and all of a sudden, it is talking way too much. For instance, each time I delete a message, I hear about how that message was deleted and added to trash, or some such. There are other announcements as well, rendering the experience entirely too verbose and inefficient for getting through email. I'm using the latest nvda, and as far as I know, there haven't been changes to the mozilla apps enhancements add on which I have been using without incident until now. My t-bird version is 68.7.0; it just updated to that.


Mary






locked Re: Thunderbird talking way too much

David Goldfield
 

Ah, but I'm now seeing extra verbeage even with the status bar being disabled. When a message has been opened NVDA reports "loading message" and sometimes the majority of that loading announcement is cut off, except for the first syllable. I also notice that status updates when new messages are being downloaded are read even when NVDA is reading the message continuously with its say all command. Oddly enough this does not seem to be occurring as much, if at all, with JAWS. I'm not saying this to provoke a JAWS vs NVDA debate nor am I in any way trying to suggest that NVDA users should switch over to another screen reader. I'm only bringing this up as I'm curious to know what's different in the way NVDA intercepts these messages as opposed to JAWS. I believe I'm using the Mozilla Enhancements addon but I believe someone else has already written to say that removing that addon did not improve the situation.


David Goldfield,
Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist
JAWS Certified, 2019

WWW.DavidGoldfield.org
On 4/9/2020 3:47 PM, Gene wrote:

I’m glad you have seen that amount of progress.  I know there has been saignificant improvement but still, when I see things like companies that take an interest in accessibility not following through, it really gets old and it is the case that, along with the improvements far too often, it appears to me the simple principle of ongoing proper follow through by making sure there are blind people who evaluate new developing versions is not done.  I keep seeing, over time, different programs that were accessible becoming less so over time or developing new problems.  II’m not talking about programs where the whole architecture changes, I’m talking about examples such as we see in Thunderbird and such as with programs that release inaccessible versions more than once and fix them perhaps months or more later.
 
It is important in such cases, for users of such programs to let the developers know of the need to actively recruit knowledgeable blind people to try new developmental releases and beta versions and report problems.
 
My previous message was written because I see this common sense practice not being followed and I’m tired of blind people being not consistently dealt with in ways such as this. While its true that a lot of the responsibility needs to be on us because we are a small group, chronically misunderstood and about which most people know little, at the same time, it shouldn’t be almost all our responsibility.  Things are changing and what was considered acceptable forty years ago isn’t now.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Gene
Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2020 1:49 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Thunderbird talking way too much
 
Which completely misses the point.  Why should blind people be different from other minorities.  Affirmative action has been around since the seventies.  It is expected that when dealing with minorities, institutions will affirmatively take certain actions.  Blind people are a small group, but it is right and proper that there should be an expectation that entities will affirmatively do something rather than we always being in a position to constantly educate and educate and educate. 
 
I’m not saying that blind people shouldn’t educate.  I’m saying that its beyond time for the attitude to change from its all on us to its partly on you.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2020 1:07 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Thunderbird talking way too much
 
On Thu, Apr 9, 2020 at 01:52 PM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:
Take mee6. The developers basically ,looked at NvDa said, We can't help you" and just ignored every other bug report I submitted. In fact they only give me sigted instructions like 'drag this to that." Yeah, I've seen all of this before.
And, again, so?   This gives you instant feedback that the developers of this product care not one whit about accessibility.  That, in and of itself, tells you to abandon hope and seek an alternative.

In this world, all of us have been subjected to something like this, though not necessarily specific to accessibility.  You shake the dust from your sandals and move along in the attempt to find a tool that works.

Also, you really do have to understand that many sighted people don't understand that drag and drop is not something that blind people do.  Very often you can end up educating support reps about keyboard shortcuts and how to find them.  There is no logical reason to believe that most of the sighted world does or ever will know nearly what you know about keyboard shortcuts and many other aspects of how blind people use computers.  So it is up to you to make the attempt to educate.

As a seeing person who has been intimately involved with accessibility for some time now, I am finding that the lack of recognition on the accessibility users side about why things are the way they are, much of it due to pure ignorance on the part of the majority of sighted people, mystifying.  Why on earth would you expect your average Joe or Jane sitting at a help desk, who might never have even spoken to an accessibility software user before, to just know this stuff?  That's exactly how and why dedicated help lines have come into existence at major players like Microsoft and Google, to name two.  It's completely unreasonable to believe that most of the sighted world should know one darned thing about screen readers, or that they even exist.  The blind community is very, very small as a proportion of all computer users.  Resources get allocated based on that, and I can only imagine what fraction of a percent of all calls to help desks come from screen reader users.  That matters, and needs to be taken into consideration.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363  

Power is being told you're not loved and not being destroyed by it.

       ~ Madonna

 

 


locked Re: Thunderbird talking way too much

 

On Thu, Apr 9, 2020 at 05:39 PM, David Goldfield wrote:
Is something new visually happening with the toolbar during the deletion process.
To be honest, I really don't know, as I never paid attention to what was going on "down there in the lower left corner" when I delete a message.

If anyone happens to still be on 68.6 and is willing to do a Quick Assist session with me, let me know off-list using the Reply to Sender link at the bottom of this message.  I also need to dig out my spare laptop, which is certainly not on the latest Thunderbird, to see what it does.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363  

Power is being told you're not loved and not being destroyed by it.

       ~ Madonna

 

 


locked Re: Thunderbird talking way too much

David Goldfield
 

I'm a bit late to this thread. I just updated to 68.7.0 of Thunderbird and I definitely have observed the issues being discussed. As someone indicated in an earlier message disabling the status bar from the Toolbars submenu in the View menu does seem to eliminate the extra verbeage you hear when messages are being deleted. Is something new visually happening with the toolbar during the deletion process.

David Goldfield,
Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist
JAWS Certified, 2019

WWW.DavidGoldfield.org

On 4/9/2020 4:14 PM, Ron Canazzi wrote:
Hi Rob,

Boy do you make some good points here.  I used to be a private beta tester for JAWS way back.  Back in 2004, the anti virus program Trend Micro Internet Security was almost totally accessible. Beginning in 2008, they went from a  menu driven system to an HTML type interface.  However, the HTML interface was not standard.  I took it upon myself to launch a kind of crusade to get the developers to realize that this change made most aspects of Trend Micro Internet Security inaccessible. You could see many of the controls, but you could not interact with check boxes or buttons.

I went round and round both with e-mails and even via 800 tech support.  After about three weeks, they kept elevating me to supposedly higher levels of development. Finally, three weeks into this odyssey, they via telephone, put me in contact with the head developer.  When I went through my by this time memorized description of the issue, he replied in broken English: "How Do Ya use a computer if you blind?"  Nothing came of this and as far as I know, the program such as it is is still largely inaccessible.

See what I mean.


On 4/9/2020 1:34 PM, Rob Hudson wrote:
Brian Vogel <@britechguy> wrote:
My point, which seems to have eluded you, is that I constantly see complaints about issues, but when I (or you, or anyone else) bring up the fact that you must report them if you want to have any hope of their being resolved there is generally nothing but the proverbial crickets in response.
This is likely because too many screen reader users have seen the, sorry but I can't duplicate this. Next! Message in response. In addition, there are some larger issues.
Much of the accessibility stack is integrated into the frameworks needed to build the applications; coders of the actual applications built within the framework itself rarely go out of their way to make their appications accessible. That their apps built with the framework are accessible is a happy coincidence. In other words the fact that Firefox and Thunderbird are largely accessible with screen readers is not necessarily due to someone at Mozilla going, hmm, lets open up NVDA/Jaws/whatever and see how this new feature works--although organizations like Mozilla <em>do</em> in fact have some a11y testers. I don't know how many programmers are actually screen reader users there, however. But anyway the accessibility support is there because the coding frameworks they use to construct the applications have basic accessibility built in to them. witness such browsers as Pale Moon, which have this infrastructure removed and which are almost completely unusable with screen readers.
Speaking in general about bug reporting. When you report an issue about an application not working with your screen reader, it is likely you're going to get a, wow, I didn't know about screen readers, response. Because the developers did not know their applications could be used at all by us. Then, you'll either get responses that fall into three categories:
1. Sorry, but I don't know anything about screen readers, so I don't know what to do to fix it. Thank you for your support.
2. Well, let's see if we can make it work. What do I need to do to make this thing work with your ... screen reader?
3. Crickets.
In category one, you're pretty much out of luck. In category two, unless you know about  programming there's not much you can do either. And of course in ccategory three, again, out of luck.
This is a basic summary of why a lot of screen reader users don't report bugs. Yes, doing so may be helpful in a lot of cases, ut in most of them, it can be a futile exercise.



locked Re: Thunderbird talking way too much

 

I like the progress beeps nvda has when messages come in.

I think its really cool that the status bar can be read, and messages like remote content and junk are detected, but I really don't need to see each change or everything at once.

I don't need to see the internal workings of the machine.



On 10/04/2020 9:24 am, Sarah k Alawami wrote:

I'd rather not see the status bar, at least as far as emails are concerned. I don't use it anyway, so fo rme that unchecking is a good work around.

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website.

to subscribe to the feed click here and you can also follow us on twitter

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on [twitch.](http://twitch.tv/ke7zum] Feel free to give the channel a follow and see what is up there.

For stream archives, products you can buy and more visit my main lbry page and my tffp lbry page YOu will also be able to buy some of my products and eBooks there.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 9 Apr 2020, at 12:45, Ron Canazzi wrote:

Hi Group,

OK, you can hide the status bar, but then you won't have it readable until you show it again.

On 4/9/2020 12:46 PM, matthew dyer wrote:

Marry,

I just ran into this same problem.  Try this.  Go the view menu and right error to the toolbars and enter on status bar to hide it and this should saulve your problem.  Thanks.

Matthew

On 4/8/2020 2:56 PM, Mary Otten wrote:

Hi all,

I just updated Thunderbird, and all of a sudden, it is talking way too much. For instance, each time I delete a message, I hear about how that message was deleted and added to trash, or some such. There are other announcements as well, rendering the experience entirely too verbose and inefficient for getting through email. I'm using the latest nvda, and as far as I know, there haven't been changes to the mozilla apps enhancements add on which I have been using without incident until now. My t-bird version is 68.7.0; it just updated to that.

Mary

--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


locked Re: Thunderbird talking way too much

 

On Thu, Apr 9, 2020 at 05:26 PM, Shaun Everiss wrote:

If they can't be bothered with this then we have an issue.

 

No Shaun, you do.  It's not all about you, and you seem to think it is and should be.

You work with the mechanisms available, and those change.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363  

Power is being told you're not loved and not being destroyed by it.

       ~ Madonna

 

 


locked Re: Thunderbird talking way too much

 

Its a bit hard jean if they don't have any email addresses.

I refuse to use their forums or twitter unless I realllly have no choice.

Email is the easiest way to contact someone.

If they can't be bothered with this then we have an issue.



On 10/04/2020 6:42 am, Gene wrote:
The developers of Firefox and Thunderbird have intentionally made their programs accessible. Part of doing so on an ongoing basis is to take the affirmative action of recruiting blind people to test new builds of these programs.  Not doing so is not implementing what is expedcted in terms of making programs properly accessible on an ongoing basis. 
 
If they don’t do this, and if other developers don’t do this who have expressed an interest or willingness to make their programs accessible, such as the developers of Malware Bytes, blind people should contact them and try to get them to do this. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
----- Original Message -----
From: Rob Hudson
Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2020 12:34 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Thunderbird talking way too much
 
Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:
> My point, which seems to have eluded you, is that I constantly see complaints about issues, but when I (or you, or anyone else) bring up the fact that you must report them if you want to have any hope of their being resolved there is generally nothing but the proverbial crickets in response.

This is likely because too many screen reader users have seen the, sorry but I can't duplicate this. Next! Message in response. In addition, there are some larger issues.
Much of the accessibility stack is integrated into the frameworks needed to build the applications; coders of the actual applications built within the framework itself rarely go out of their way to make their appications accessible. That their apps built with the framework are accessible is a happy coincidence. In other words the fact that Firefox and Thunderbird are largely accessible with screen readers is not necessarily due to someone at Mozilla going, hmm, lets open up NVDA/Jaws/whatever and see how this new feature works--although organizations like Mozilla <em>do</em> in fact have some a11y testers. I don't know how many programmers are actually screen reader users there, however. But anyway the accessibility support is there because the coding frameworks they use to construct the applications have basic accessibility built in to them. witness such browsers as Pale Moon, which have this infrastructure removed and which are almost completely unusable with screen readers.
Speaking in general about bug reporting. When you report an issue about an application not working with your screen reader, it is likely you're going to get a, wow, I didn't know about screen readers, response. Because the developers did not know their applications could be used at all by us. Then, you'll either get responses that fall into three categories:
1. Sorry, but I don't know anything about screen readers, so I don't know what to do to fix it. Thank you for your support.
2. Well, let's see if we can make it work. What do I need to do to make this thing work with your ... screen reader?
3. Crickets.
In category one, you're pretty much out of luck. In category two, unless you know about  programming there's not much you can do either. And of course in ccategory three, again, out of luck.
This is a basic summary of why a lot of screen reader users don't report bugs. Yes, doing so may be helpful in a lot of cases, ut in most of them, it can be a futile exercise.



locked Re: Thunderbird talking way too much

Sarah k Alawami
 

I'd rather not see the status bar, at least as far as emails are concerned. I don't use it anyway, so fo rme that unchecking is a good work around.

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website.

to subscribe to the feed click here and you can also follow us on twitter

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on [twitch.](http://twitch.tv/ke7zum] Feel free to give the channel a follow and see what is up there.

For stream archives, products you can buy and more visit my main lbry page and my tffp lbry page YOu will also be able to buy some of my products and eBooks there.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 9 Apr 2020, at 12:45, Ron Canazzi wrote:

Hi Group,

OK, you can hide the status bar, but then you won't have it readable until you show it again.

On 4/9/2020 12:46 PM, matthew dyer wrote:

Marry,

I just ran into this same problem.  Try this.  Go the view menu and right error to the toolbars and enter on status bar to hide it and this should saulve your problem.  Thanks.

Matthew

On 4/8/2020 2:56 PM, Mary Otten wrote:

Hi all,

I just updated Thunderbird, and all of a sudden, it is talking way too much. For instance, each time I delete a message, I hear about how that message was deleted and added to trash, or some such. There are other announcements as well, rendering the experience entirely too verbose and inefficient for getting through email. I'm using the latest nvda, and as far as I know, there haven't been changes to the mozilla apps enhancements add on which I have been using without incident until now. My t-bird version is 68.7.0; it just updated to that.

Mary

--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


locked Re: Thunderbird talking way too much

 

Jean a big issue is stability.

I have 1 machine here.

So I could test something, then it screws up everything.

Then I need to reinstall what that is, or completely reformat and reinstall the os.

Technically I do have another machine but no room to test it.

I could vm things I guess but that could be hit and miss at times to.

Your average user wants to get their stuff and go.

Back in the day I did try to do this.

It can be done, but its rough.

A bug can appear which looks worse than it is but isn't noticable until you think smaller.

Winamp plugins can get out of date, in this example, I was testing dolphin maps.

My system was all loopy because of 1 little file in 1 folder.

That file was causing the app to malfunction  badly.

But it looked like an os issue.

Running the fixes didn't help, running several reformat didn't help.

It was only after my 10th reformat of the day that I decided to look at the maps I had installed on test, I found the map causing the issue and reported it.

However after that experience, unless I get a bigger desk and another machine to test unstable stuff on that if it screws up and I need to reformat regularly and it doesn't matter, I won't be doing that.

I don't have room right now for either and  I am to chicken to try again.

I have enough issue keeping all things updated on my stable system, doing my testing and other things and living my life without a system going down because of something trivial.

That was back in my teens and 20s.

I will be 38 this year, my time seeing what this button does is over.

If it really screws up like it did last year, then it screwed up but I don't care or enjoy fixing it anymore if it does.

I would prefur not to cause things to screw up by chance.



On 10/04/2020 6:23 am, Gene wrote:
You would expect interested blind users to receive alpha and beta releases and send comments.  And if there aren’t, Mozilla should recruit testers.  It is just plain bad procedure not to have releases evaluated by such users as a matter of policy and that is why so many programs such as Malware Bytes, are accessible in one version, have serious accessibility problems in the next, and then are finally fixed in a later release.
 
Gene
----- Original Message [-----
Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2020 11:57 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Thunderbird talking way too much
 
On Thu, Apr 9, 2020 at 12:42 PM, Gene wrote:
My question is why this wasn’t caught by reports from blind people before the release version.
Gene, do you honestly think that there were many, if any, based on what has been seen here and on other screen reader and associated technology groups?

My point, which seems to have eluded you, is that I constantly see complaints about issues, but when I (or you, or anyone else) bring up the fact that you must report them if you want to have any hope of their being resolved there is generally nothing but the proverbial crickets in response.

I have no reason to believe, based on what I have observed on multiple blind technology related groups, that most (and I do mean most, the vast majority most) screen reader users have ever filed a trouble ticket/bug report.  And until or unless they do they should not expect prompt attention to issues that may not even have been recognized.

Each user demographic is and should be responsible for advocating for themselves by reporting the issues they encounter to those who can fix them.  No one else will, or should.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363  

Power is being told you're not loved and not being destroyed by it.

       ~ Madonna

 

 


Re: google chrome version 81

Dejan Ristic
 

Hi,


Glad to have heard it.


Dejan

On 09/04/2020 22:53, Brian Vogel wrote:
Mohammad, 

            Just as an FYI, your report was deemed a duplicate and merged into 

Issue 1069448: neither NVDA nore Jaws screen readers are able to read PDF documents in latest Chrome version 81 stable

 
            It was deemed a regression bug, and apparently a fix has already been made as of earlier this afternoon.  The final line of the issue above notes:

Good news, this is a duplicate of bug 1047856 which has just been verified as having been fixed. I'll merge this bug now. If you have any questions or concerns after Chrome updates with the fix, please let us know!
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363  

Power is being told you're not loved and not being destroyed by it.

       ~ Madonna

 

 


Virus-free. www.avast.com


locked Re: Thunderbird talking way too much

 

On Thu, Apr 9, 2020 at 05:14 PM, Shaun Everiss wrote:
If thunderbird has a github I may actually try to post a bug at that.
No, they don't.  As I already reported, all Mozilla products do their project management via Bugzilla, not GitHub (which is what NVAccess does use for NVDA, and many NVDA add-ons have their own projects on GitHub).
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363  

Power is being told you're not loved and not being destroyed by it.

       ~ Madonna

 

 


locked Re: Thunderbird talking way too much

 

Yeah ccleaner got a bit like that.

Now flash fxp hmmm well that was a bit better.

Of course if you join a beta test team like I have done with dolphin and wordpress I can skip all official contact channels and use an internal method to report bugs directly and they do get fixed but thats a bit different.



On 10/04/2020 5:52 am, Sarah k Alawami wrote:

Yep. Take mee6. The developers basically ,looked at NvDa said, We can't help you" and just ignored every other bug report I submitted. In fact they only give me sigted instructions like 'drag this to that." Yeah, I've seen all of this before.

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website.

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Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 9 Apr 2020, at 10:34, Rob Hudson wrote:

Brian Vogel britechguy@... wrote:

My point, which seems to have eluded you, is that I constantly see complaints about issues, but when I (or you, or anyone else) bring up the fact that you must report them if you want to have any hope of their being resolved there is generally nothing but the proverbial crickets in response.

This is likely because too many screen reader users have seen the, sorry but I can't duplicate this. Next! Message in response. In addition, there are some larger issues.
Much of the accessibility stack is integrated into the frameworks needed to build the applications; coders of the actual applications built within the framework itself rarely go out of their way to make their appications accessible. That their apps built with the framework are accessible is a happy coincidence. In other words the fact that Firefox and Thunderbird are largely accessible with screen readers is not necessarily due to someone at Mozilla going, hmm, lets open up NVDA/Jaws/whatever and see how this new feature works--although organizations like Mozilla <em>do</em> in fact have some a11y testers. I don't know how many programmers are actually screen reader users there, however. But anyway the accessibility support is there because the coding frameworks they use to construct the applications have basic accessibility built in to them. witness such browsers as Pale Moon, which have this infrastructure removed and which are almost completely unusable with screen readers.
Speaking in general about bug reporting. When you report an issue about an application not working with your screen reader, it is likely you're going to get a, wow, I didn't know about screen readers, response. Because the developers did not know their applications could be used at all by us. Then, you'll either get responses that fall into three categories:
1. Sorry, but I don't know anything about screen readers, so I don't know what to do to fix it. Thank you for your support.
2. Well, let's see if we can make it work. What do I need to do to make this thing work with your ... screen reader?
3. Crickets.
In category one, you're pretty much out of luck. In category two, unless you know about programming there's not much you can do either. And of course in ccategory three, again, out of luck.
This is a basic summary of why a lot of screen reader users don't report bugs. Yes, doing so may be helpful in a lot of cases, ut in most of them, it can be a futile exercise.


locked Re: Thunderbird talking way too much

 

On Thu, Apr 9, 2020 at 05:03 PM, Shaun Everiss wrote:
Well jean its a bit hard to do this when they have no direct support email address.
There are lots of places that don't do e-mail support anymore.  And I actually generally find what I need either by searching their community forums or just doing a web search on the issue I'm having if we're talking about a release version.

If you want to report bugs, either for Mozilla Firefox or Thunderbird, then get an account at https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/home

Here's a search on that page, without being logged in, on just Thunderbird:  https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/buglist.cgi?quicksearch=Thunderbird
Were I actually trying to determine whether a specific issue already exists I would add keywords other than just Thunderbird.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363  

Power is being told you're not loved and not being destroyed by it.

       ~ Madonna

 

 


locked Re: Thunderbird talking way too much

 

Its also hard when direct support or forms are not available.

In this case, there is a forum and a twitter and that is that.

Turning things off has fixed my issue, junk filter = no junk, remote content = no alerts.

That I can live with.

Status bars mean no progress from nvda, and well its starting to effect me now.

I could join another email list and maybe I will try to figure out the forum, but you need a firefox sync account to access the thing and while I do there is no actual way to make a google login  work or anything like that so yeah its just harder.

If thunderbird has a github I may actually try to post a bug at that.

I've been able to put up with issues, but now its got to the stage where I need to do something about it.

Maybe I should become a beta tester of thunderbird and subscribe to the list.

Trouble is I don't want to have different profiles for this and that.

On 10/04/2020 5:34 am, Rob Hudson wrote:
Brian Vogel <@britechguy> wrote:
My point, which seems to have eluded you, is that I constantly see complaints about issues, but when I (or you, or anyone else) bring up the fact that you must report them if you want to have any hope of their being resolved there is generally nothing but the proverbial crickets in response.
This is likely because too many screen reader users have seen the, sorry but I can't duplicate this. Next! Message in response. In addition, there are some larger issues.
Much of the accessibility stack is integrated into the frameworks needed to build the applications; coders of the actual applications built within the framework itself rarely go out of their way to make their appications accessible. That their apps built with the framework are accessible is a happy coincidence. In other words the fact that Firefox and Thunderbird are largely accessible with screen readers is not necessarily due to someone at Mozilla going, hmm, lets open up NVDA/Jaws/whatever and see how this new feature works--although organizations like Mozilla <em>do</em> in fact have some a11y testers. I don't know how many programmers are actually screen reader users there, however. But anyway the accessibility support is there because the coding frameworks they use to construct the applications have basic accessibility built in to them. witness such browsers as Pale Moon, which have this infrastructure removed and which are almost completely unusable with screen readers.
Speaking in general about bug reporting. When you report an issue about an application not working with your screen reader, it is likely you're going to get a, wow, I didn't know about screen readers, response. Because the developers did not know their applications could be used at all by us. Then, you'll either get responses that fall into three categories:
1. Sorry, but I don't know anything about screen readers, so I don't know what to do to fix it. Thank you for your support.
2. Well, let's see if we can make it work. What do I need to do to make this thing work with your ... screen reader?
3. Crickets.
In category one, you're pretty much out of luck. In category two, unless you know about programming there's not much you can do either. And of course in ccategory three, again, out of luck.
This is a basic summary of why a lot of screen reader users don't report bugs. Yes, doing so may be helpful in a lot of cases, ut in most of them, it can be a futile exercise.


.


locked Re: Thunderbird talking way too much

 

Well jean its a bit hard to do this when they have no direct support email address.

They have their forum which I have issues navigating, they have twitter which while I will use it if I must I really don't like.

There is no support email address or anything.

I guess I could get on one of the descussion lists, but I get allready so much traffic as it is.

If there was a way to get in contact or someone could help me get in touch with someone then yeah maybe we can get this sorted.

Right now, I am unsure what to do.

With all the issues with firefox 75 and the like, and if the betas of thunderbird go that way to then I may have to look for and learn another client.

I don't really want to use another client.

The thunderbird interface works and its accessable and with some configurations its reasonably fast here.

If push comes to shove, I will downgrade to 52x which was the last mozilla version in the old format, however I am unsure if security certs will continue to run on it.

The new quantom interface works well, hmmm maybe, I do know a few testers or at least 1 beta tester on here I think the user is roland, maybe I can get him to report this, who knows.



On 10/04/2020 4:01 am, Gene wrote:
This problem raises serious questions about how accessibility is implemented as Thunderbird is developed. 
 
This is just the kind of thing you would expect to see implemented if a sighted person or persons, who know nothing about proper implementation of accessibility, add or design accessibility functions.  Just because something talks doesn't mean it is practical or properly usable. 
 
How did such a function get past beta testing or even alpha testing?  Unless Thunderbird changes how it evaluates accessibility changes or new implementations, there will be a constant threat of future versions presenting new and completely unnecessary accessibility problems.  I would suggest those who use the program contact the developers about this problem.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2020 9:38 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Thunderbird talking way too much
 
My guess is that the good folks at Thunderbird had gotten complaints that it was impossible to know, for instance, whether all new e-mail had completed downloading when you fired up T-bird at the start of the day, and decided to expose a lot more information presented on the status bar to the screen reader.

What they probably hadn't counted on is the fact that a screen reader will detect changes and read them as they're detected, and that's really, really irritating if you're reading your e-mail messages and status stuff just barges in while doing so.

If they have sighted folks doing testing for these new functions, it wouldn't surprise me if they just sat there when the status bar was really active watching to see that it was being reported correctly, never moving along like one normally would into reading messages.  And I can get that, as even though I have the status bar displayed, I virtually never look at it at all.  The occasional glance occurs, but I wouldn't really miss it at all if it weren't there by default.

It's well-nigh impossible for most of us who see to have any real idea of exactly how screen reader users typically approach using various pieces of software (and I include myself, though I do have at least some idea at this point).  And there will never be enough in-house actual screen reader users doing accessibility testing.  That's one of the reasons I push so hard to get folks who encounter accessibility issues to file bug/issue/trouble reports with the companies that produce the software.  You all are able to give a far more accurate description of what the software is doing that you don't want with the screen reader as well as what the preferred behavior would be.  Also, given your years of end-user experience, you're often in a far better position to know whether the issue you're having is with the screen reader or due to a change in the software you're using the screen reader to access, and that's often the key to getting to the root of the problem as well as the fix.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363  

Power is being told you're not loved and not being destroyed by it.

       ~ Madonna

 

 


locked Re: Thunderbird talking way too much

 

Well I wish there was a direct way to contact them.

I was able to login to their forum but I couldn't make heads of the pages on it or maybe I wasn't looking properly.

I know there is twitter and I have twblue but after what twitter did to their streaming support well we are not exactly friendly, I'll use it if I must, but I'd still prefer a direct email contact.

Right now the status bar is to verbose.

And having almost every message stating it has remote content in it is why I have that turned off right now.

All I want to know is if the html with headings and the like will load.

I don't care if there is malware in it, all I care is if removing it or stripping it will efect the message I am viewing and any links especially if they are ones I was expecting like in a news letter.

I do appreciate the extra feadback but I am getting so much at once.

Now if all that feadback could be converted into a different sound and I could customise those sounds to my liking and or have a soundtheme that came with thunderbird, then I think it could be manageable.

Luckily I have junk filters off but I'd really like either a sound for potential junk or a way for thunderbird to improve their junk filters.

What is the use of saying there is potentially bad content in a message when every message has that potential especially since most are html.

What is the point of every message being potentially flagged is spam when most of them are not.

I am not angry but right now, I just turn it off and I get round it that way.

However there must be an easier way to handle all this information.

Right now I am getting so much feedback it may as well be noise.

If there is a remote content stripper or something that would be fine.

I don't use or need images, I want the page and headings, and links to display properly.

I'd also like the ability to have all links exposed so if I was given a click here I could see what it was.

Is there something allready or do I need to report all this.

Also how to do it, have have users sent requests and such to thunderbird before.

I'd dearly much would like to do this.



On 10/04/2020 2:38 am, Brian Vogel wrote:
My guess is that the good folks at Thunderbird had gotten complaints that it was impossible to know, for instance, whether all new e-mail had completed downloading when you fired up T-bird at the start of the day, and decided to expose a lot more information presented on the status bar to the screen reader.

What they probably hadn't counted on is the fact that a screen reader will detect changes and read them as they're detected, and that's really, really irritating if you're reading your e-mail messages and status stuff just barges in while doing so.

If they have sighted folks doing testing for these new functions, it wouldn't surprise me if they just sat there when the status bar was really active watching to see that it was being reported correctly, never moving along like one normally would into reading messages.  And I can get that, as even though I have the status bar displayed, I virtually never look at it at all.  The occasional glance occurs, but I wouldn't really miss it at all if it weren't there by default.

It's well-nigh impossible for most of us who see to have any real idea of exactly how screen reader users typically approach using various pieces of software (and I include myself, though I do have at least some idea at this point).  And there will never be enough in-house actual screen reader users doing accessibility testing.  That's one of the reasons I push so hard to get folks who encounter accessibility issues to file bug/issue/trouble reports with the companies that produce the software.  You all are able to give a far more accurate description of what the software is doing that you don't want with the screen reader as well as what the preferred behavior would be.  Also, given your years of end-user experience, you're often in a far better position to know whether the issue you're having is with the screen reader or due to a change in the software you're using the screen reader to access, and that's often the key to getting to the root of the problem as well as the fix.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363  

Power is being told you're not loved and not being destroyed by it.

       ~ Madonna