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Re: Thunderbird talking way too much
Rob Hudson
Brian Vogel <@britechguy> wrote:
My point, which seems to have eluded you, is that I constantly see complaints about issues, but when I (or you, or anyone else) bring up the fact that you must report them if you want to have any hope of their being resolved there is generally nothing but the proverbial crickets in response.This is likely because too many screen reader users have seen the, sorry but I can't duplicate this. Next! Message in response. In addition, there are some larger issues. Much of the accessibility stack is integrated into the frameworks needed to build the applications; coders of the actual applications built within the framework itself rarely go out of their way to make their appications accessible. That their apps built with the framework are accessible is a happy coincidence. In other words the fact that Firefox and Thunderbird are largely accessible with screen readers is not necessarily due to someone at Mozilla going, hmm, lets open up NVDA/Jaws/whatever and see how this new feature works--although organizations like Mozilla <em>do</em> in fact have some a11y testers. I don't know how many programmers are actually screen reader users there, however. But anyway the accessibility support is there because the coding frameworks they use to construct the applications have basic accessibility built in to them. witness such browsers as Pale Moon, which have this infrastructure removed and which are almost completely unusable with screen readers. Speaking in general about bug reporting. When you report an issue about an application not working with your screen reader, it is likely you're going to get a, wow, I didn't know about screen readers, response. Because the developers did not know their applications could be used at all by us. Then, you'll either get responses that fall into three categories: 1. Sorry, but I don't know anything about screen readers, so I don't know what to do to fix it. Thank you for your support. 2. Well, let's see if we can make it work. What do I need to do to make this thing work with your ... screen reader? 3. Crickets. In category one, you're pretty much out of luck. In category two, unless you know about programming there's not much you can do either. And of course in ccategory three, again, out of luck. This is a basic summary of why a lot of screen reader users don't report bugs. Yes, doing so may be helpful in a lot of cases, ut in most of them, it can be a futile exercise.
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Re: google chrome version 81
On Thu, Apr 9, 2020 at 12:35 PM, mohammad suliman wrote:
And a huge, massively huge thank you from me for having done so!! Now if others activate that link, navigate to what NVDA announces as the "Star border" button (I think) and continues to say "to star this issue," and activates that button, we'll be getting somewhere. In addition to bug reports like this, which are vital, the mechanisms that allow other users to effectively make the statement, "Hey, I've got this issue, too," by using them is what makes an issue bubble up in the priority for attention queue. -- Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363 Power is being told you're not loved and not being destroyed by it. ~ Madonna
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Re: Thunderbird talking way too much
On Thu, Apr 9, 2020 at 12:42 PM, Gene wrote:
My question is why this wasn’t caught by reports from blind people before the release version.Gene, do you honestly think that there were many, if any, based on what has been seen here and on other screen reader and associated technology groups? My point, which seems to have eluded you, is that I constantly see complaints about issues, but when I (or you, or anyone else) bring up the fact that you must report them if you want to have any hope of their being resolved there is generally nothing but the proverbial crickets in response. I have no reason to believe, based on what I have observed on multiple blind technology related groups, that most (and I do mean most, the vast majority most) screen reader users have ever filed a trouble ticket/bug report. And until or unless they do they should not expect prompt attention to issues that may not even have been recognized. Each user demographic is and should be responsible for advocating for themselves by reporting the issues they encounter to those who can fix them. No one else will, or should. -- Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363 Power is being told you're not loved and not being destroyed by it. ~ Madonna
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Re: Thunderbird talking way too much
cecropia64
hi:
i just turned off the status bar and the issue is gone. made me
happy. thanks
On 4/9/2020 12:15 PM, Brian Vogel
wrote:
On Thu, Apr 9, 2020 at 12:01 PM, Gene wrote:
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Re: Thunderbird talking way too much
matthew dyer
Marry,
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
I just ran into this same problem. Try this. Go the view menu and right error to the toolbars and enter on status bar to hide it and this should saulve your problem. Thanks. Matthew
On 4/8/2020 2:56 PM, Mary Otten wrote:
Hi all,
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Re: Thunderbird talking way too much
Gene
My point isn’t that there won’t be mistakes. My question is why this
wasn’t caught by reports from blind people before the release version.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2020 11:15 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Thunderbird talking way too
much On
Thu, Apr 9, 2020 at 12:01 PM, Gene wrote: This is just the kind of thing you would expect to see implemented if a sighted person or persons, who know nothing about proper implementation of accessibility, add or design accessibility functions. Just because something talks doesn't mean it is practical or properly usable.And even if virtually all of the sighted developers actually have been trained extensively, or have long experience with, developing accessibility features there will always be the newbie who could slip. And anyone who thinks that a piece of software as complex as Thunderbird undergoes testing of every line of code again, with human eyes and ears, at every update is deluding themselves. On the topic on this group regarding Google Chrome Version 81, member Felix G. wrote, in part, "Broken PDF support for sighted users would never have slipped past quality control, which pretty much informs us where we stand on the global scale of things." And the fact is that small minorities, and blind users are a tiny, tiny, minority of users, will not be at the top of the list of concerns at all times. And given that any software developer has many constituencies to please, focus on their primary constituency is appropriate. When you add to that the fact that there are very, very few sighted people who have the vaguest clue regarding the actual nuts and bolts of daily use of screen readers in particular, it's entirely possible for things to slip through as the result of ignorance, not malice. But the fact of the matter is that these days accessibility is, by and large, being designed in from the ground up, and that's a major, major change and step forward. There will be occasional bugs that cause things to break, but here's the thing, that happens and happens to all users at some point or another. The way to get these things addressed is to use the mechanism available for a given development team to report issues. In the case of Thunderbird that's Bugzilla. In the case of NVDA it's GitHub. There are others. I just assisted someone the other day in creating a Bugzilla account so that she could report some major accessibility issues, including this verbosity one, that showed up in the 70b3 beta of Thunderbird. That's what has to be done. And it's the individuals who encounter the issues who should be doing it. And I am offering my assistance in helping anyone who wants to set up a bug reporting account for any given piece of software to do so, as well as figuring out the specific reporting process steps. If you all don't do this then you have absolutely no right to expect anyone else will and, believe me, "someone else" won't. -- Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363 Power is being told you're not loved and not being destroyed by it. ~ Madonna
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Re: google chrome version 81
mohammad suliman
Hello all, I also experience the mentioned issue. I have reported it on Chromium bug tracker: People are welcomed to star it so hopefully it gets more attention. Thanks!
On Thu, 9 Apr 2020 at 17:42 Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote: Just as an FYI, Chrome updated to, Version 81.0.4044.92 (Official Build) (64-bit), on my machine this morning when I went to check the current version.
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Re: WeatherPlus, adding new cities
Adriano Barbieri
Hi Vincent,
From what I understand, it seems that in the passage you didn't
import the cities. Regards
Il 04/04/2020 12:13, Vincent Le Goff ha scritto:
Hi everyone,
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Re: Thunderbird talking way too much
On Thu, Apr 9, 2020 at 12:10 PM, Howard Traxler wrote:
How does one revert to an earlier version of Thunderbird?Why on earth do that when it has already been reported here that simply turning off the Status Bar virtually (perhaps completely) eliminates the issue? All it takes to try that out is hitting ALT+V, navigating to the Toolbars item (which you should be on at the very top to begin with), hitting enter to open it, arrowing down to the toggle/checkbox for the Status Bar item, and unchecking/toggling it off. -- Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363 Power is being told you're not loved and not being destroyed by it. ~ Madonna
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Re: Thunderbird talking way too much
On Thu, Apr 9, 2020 at 12:01 PM, Gene wrote:
This is just the kind of thing you would expect to see implemented if a sighted person or persons, who know nothing about proper implementation of accessibility, add or design accessibility functions. Just because something talks doesn't mean it is practical or properly usable.And even if virtually all of the sighted developers actually have been trained extensively, or have long experience with, developing accessibility features there will always be the newbie who could slip. And anyone who thinks that a piece of software as complex as Thunderbird undergoes testing of every line of code again, with human eyes and ears, at every update is deluding themselves. On the topic on this group regarding Google Chrome Version 81, member Felix G. wrote, in part, "Broken PDF support for sighted users would never have slipped past quality control, which pretty much informs us where we stand on the global scale of things." And the fact is that small minorities, and blind users are a tiny, tiny, minority of users, will not be at the top of the list of concerns at all times. And given that any software developer has many constituencies to please, focus on their primary constituency is appropriate. When you add to that the fact that there are very, very few sighted people who have the vaguest clue regarding the actual nuts and bolts of daily use of screen readers in particular, it's entirely possible for things to slip through as the result of ignorance, not malice. But the fact of the matter is that these days accessibility is, by and large, being designed in from the ground up, and that's a major, major change and step forward. There will be occasional bugs that cause things to break, but here's the thing, that happens and happens to all users at some point or another. The way to get these things addressed is to use the mechanism available for a given development team to report issues. In the case of Thunderbird that's Bugzilla. In the case of NVDA it's GitHub. There are others. I just assisted someone the other day in creating a Bugzilla account so that she could report some major accessibility issues, including this verbosity one, that showed up in the 70b3 beta of Thunderbird. That's what has to be done. And it's the individuals who encounter the issues who should be doing it. And I am offering my assistance in helping anyone who wants to set up a bug reporting account for any given piece of software to do so, as well as figuring out the specific reporting process steps. If you all don't do this then you have absolutely no right to expect anyone else will and, believe me, "someone else" won't. -- Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363 Power is being told you're not loved and not being destroyed by it. ~ Madonna
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Re: Thunderbird talking way too much
Howard Traxler
How does one revert to an earlier version of Thunderbird? Thanks.
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
On 4/9/2020 11:01 AM, Gene wrote:
This problem raises serious questions about how accessibility is implemented as Thunderbird is developed.
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Re: Thunderbird talking way too much
Gene
This problem raises serious questions about how accessibility is
implemented as Thunderbird is developed.
This is just the kind of thing you would expect to see implemented if a
sighted person or persons, who know nothing about proper implementation of
accessibility, add or design accessibility functions. Just because
something talks doesn't mean it is practical or properly usable.
How did such a function get past beta testing or even alpha testing?
Unless Thunderbird changes how it evaluates accessibility changes or new
implementations, there will be a constant threat of future versions presenting
new and completely unnecessary accessibility problems. I would suggest
those who use the program contact the developers about this problem.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2020 9:38 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Thunderbird talking way too
much My
guess is that the good folks at Thunderbird had gotten complaints that it was
impossible to know, for instance, whether all new e-mail had completed
downloading when you fired up T-bird at the start of the day, and decided to
expose a lot more information presented on the status bar to the screen
reader. What they probably hadn't counted on is the fact that a screen reader will detect changes and read them as they're detected, and that's really, really irritating if you're reading your e-mail messages and status stuff just barges in while doing so. If they have sighted folks doing testing for these new functions, it wouldn't surprise me if they just sat there when the status bar was really active watching to see that it was being reported correctly, never moving along like one normally would into reading messages. And I can get that, as even though I have the status bar displayed, I virtually never look at it at all. The occasional glance occurs, but I wouldn't really miss it at all if it weren't there by default. It's well-nigh impossible for most of us who see to have any real idea of exactly how screen reader users typically approach using various pieces of software (and I include myself, though I do have at least some idea at this point). And there will never be enough in-house actual screen reader users doing accessibility testing. That's one of the reasons I push so hard to get folks who encounter accessibility issues to file bug/issue/trouble reports with the companies that produce the software. You all are able to give a far more accurate description of what the software is doing that you don't want with the screen reader as well as what the preferred behavior would be. Also, given your years of end-user experience, you're often in a far better position to know whether the issue you're having is with the screen reader or due to a change in the software you're using the screen reader to access, and that's often the key to getting to the root of the problem as well as the fix. -- Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363 Power is being told you're not loved and not being destroyed by it. ~ Madonna
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Re: How can I get the date from a Braille display?
David Griffith
I cannot completely vouch for this working with a braille display as I am only just getting to grips with this myself but using a qwerty keyboards windows B and arrowing until focus is on the clock will announce not just the time but the date with speech in NVDA. I hope that you get the same result with a braille display. David Griffith
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Daniel Gartmann
Sent: 09 April 2020 15:47 To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: [nvda] How can I get the date from a Braille display?
Hi all,
On a laptop keyboard, I am able to get the date by pressing NVDA F12 twice quickly.
On my Freedom Scientific Focus40 Blue, I can’t seem to do two presses quickly of NVDA+F12. The second press of F12 just sends an F12 through and I get the Save As dialog.
Any suggestions greatly appreciated.
Daniel
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How can I get the date from a Braille display?
Daniel Gartmann
Hi all,
On a laptop keyboard, I am able to get the date by pressing NVDA F12 twice quickly.
On my Freedom Scientific Focus40 Blue, I can’t seem to do two presses quickly of NVDA+F12. The second press of F12 just sends an F12 through and I get the Save As dialog.
Any suggestions greatly appreciated.
Daniel
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Re: google chrome version 81
Just as an FYI, Chrome updated to, Version 81.0.4044.92 (Official Build) (64-bit), on my machine this morning when I went to check the current version.
-- Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363 Power is being told you're not loved and not being destroyed by it. ~ Madonna
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locked
Re: Thunderbird talking way too much
My guess is that the good folks at Thunderbird had gotten complaints that it was impossible to know, for instance, whether all new e-mail had completed downloading when you fired up T-bird at the start of the day, and decided to expose a lot more information presented on the status bar to the screen reader.
What they probably hadn't counted on is the fact that a screen reader will detect changes and read them as they're detected, and that's really, really irritating if you're reading your e-mail messages and status stuff just barges in while doing so. If they have sighted folks doing testing for these new functions, it wouldn't surprise me if they just sat there when the status bar was really active watching to see that it was being reported correctly, never moving along like one normally would into reading messages. And I can get that, as even though I have the status bar displayed, I virtually never look at it at all. The occasional glance occurs, but I wouldn't really miss it at all if it weren't there by default. It's well-nigh impossible for most of us who see to have any real idea of exactly how screen reader users typically approach using various pieces of software (and I include myself, though I do have at least some idea at this point). And there will never be enough in-house actual screen reader users doing accessibility testing. That's one of the reasons I push so hard to get folks who encounter accessibility issues to file bug/issue/trouble reports with the companies that produce the software. You all are able to give a far more accurate description of what the software is doing that you don't want with the screen reader as well as what the preferred behavior would be. Also, given your years of end-user experience, you're often in a far better position to know whether the issue you're having is with the screen reader or due to a change in the software you're using the screen reader to access, and that's often the key to getting to the root of the problem as well as the fix. -- Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363 Power is being told you're not loved and not being destroyed by it. ~ Madonna
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Re: Thunderbird talking way too much
Roger Stewart
Yes, turning off the status bar fixed it completely!
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
Thanks much! Roger
On 4/8/2020 5:34 PM, David Csercsics wrote:
I got the 68.7 update today and noticed it was chatty. It was reading the status bar, so I disabled that, and it's less verbose. You can disable the status bar from view -> toolbars.
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Re: Thunderbird talking way too much
matthew dyer
Hi,
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
Getting the same thing. Hope they can find a fix for this. Thanks. Matthew
On 4/8/2020 5:44 PM, Roger Stewart wrote:
I just upgraded Thunderbird to the latest version. I'm getting a lot of unwanted feedback telling me every time I delete a message how many messages have been moved to trash and how many unread messages are in the inbox. I hope a fix can be found to turn this off. Maybe someone might find it useful, and if this is so, then a toggle to turn it on or off would be good.
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Re: google chrome version 81
Well, I've hated the whole trend toward browsers opening PDF files inside themselves, as I always prefer to use a dedicated PDF reader when dealing with PDFs. Whether you use Adobe Reader DC or some other reader, you can follow these instructions to make Chrome not open PDFs itself, but hand them off to the PDF reader you have set in Windows to handle PDF files.
Making the Google Chrome Browser Open PDF Files in Your Chosen PDF Reader 1. Make sure that your chosen PDF Reader is already installed on your computer and that is has been set as the default app for PDF files. 2. Activate the Chrome Menu Button, then choose Settings. ALT+F,S 3. Navigate to the Privacy and Security Pane, then to the Site Settings option in that pane, and activate its button. 4. In the Site Settings Options list, navigate down to the PDF Documents option, and activate its button. 5. In the PDF Documents dialog, throw the toggle for Download PDF files instead of automatically opening them in Chrome to ON. 6. Close Settings. After having done this, when a link related to a PDF file is activated, the file will download in the background and open in your chosen PDF reader instead of Chrome. For small PDF files this occurs very quickly, but for larger ones it can take a few moments for the download to complete before the file opens. --Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363 Power is being told you're not loved and not being destroyed by it. ~ Madonna
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Re: google chrome version 81
Felix G.
I just verified it. They really broke PDF support!
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
Broken PDF support for sighted users would never have slipped past quality control, which pretty much informs us where we stand on the global scale of things. However, since accessibility-related bugs were fixed in this update, let's not be overly pessimistic and just call it a mixed bag. Best, Felix Am Do., 9. Apr. 2020 um 11:20 Uhr schrieb Dejan Ristic <r.dejan83@...>:
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