Date   

locked Re: Thunderbird talking way too much

Gene
 

The developers of Firefox and Thunderbird have intentionally made their programs accessible. Part of doing so on an ongoing basis is to take the affirmative action of recruiting blind people to test new builds of these programs.  Not doing so is not implementing what is expedcted in terms of making programs properly accessible on an ongoing basis. 
 
If they don’t do this, and if other developers don’t do this who have expressed an interest or willingness to make their programs accessible, such as the developers of Malware Bytes, blind people should contact them and try to get them to do this. 
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
----- Original Message -----
From: Rob Hudson
Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2020 12:34 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Thunderbird talking way too much
 
Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:
> My point, which seems to have eluded you, is that I constantly see complaints about issues, but when I (or you, or anyone else) bring up the fact that you must report them if you want to have any hope of their being resolved there is generally nothing but the proverbial crickets in response.

This is likely because too many screen reader users have seen the, sorry but I can't duplicate this. Next! Message in response. In addition, there are some larger issues.
Much of the accessibility stack is integrated into the frameworks needed to build the applications; coders of the actual applications built within the framework itself rarely go out of their way to make their appications accessible. That their apps built with the framework are accessible is a happy coincidence. In other words the fact that Firefox and Thunderbird are largely accessible with screen readers is not necessarily due to someone at Mozilla going, hmm, lets open up NVDA/Jaws/whatever and see how this new feature works--although organizations like Mozilla <em>do</em> in fact have some a11y testers. I don't know how many programmers are actually screen reader users there, however. But anyway the accessibility support is there because the coding frameworks they use to construct the applications have basic accessibility built in to them. witness such browsers as Pale Moon, which have this infrastructure removed and which are almost completely unusable with screen readers.
Speaking in general about bug reporting. When you report an issue about an application not working with your screen reader, it is likely you're going to get a, wow, I didn't know about screen readers, response. Because the developers did not know their applications could be used at all by us. Then, you'll either get responses that fall into three categories:
1. Sorry, but I don't know anything about screen readers, so I don't know what to do to fix it. Thank you for your support.
2. Well, let's see if we can make it work. What do I need to do to make this thing work with your ... screen reader?
3. Crickets.
In category one, you're pretty much out of luck. In category two, unless you know about  programming there's not much you can do either. And of course in ccategory three, again, out of luck.
This is a basic summary of why a lot of screen reader users don't report bugs. Yes, doing so may be helpful in a lot of cases, ut in most of them, it can be a futile exercise.



locked Re: Thunderbird talking way too much

Gene
 

You would expect interested blind users to receive alpha and beta releases and send comments.  And if there aren’t, Mozilla should recruit testers.  It is just plain bad procedure not to have releases evaluated by such users as a matter of policy and that is why so many programs such as Malware Bytes, are accessible in one version, have serious accessibility problems in the next, and then are finally fixed in a later release.
 
Gene
----- Original Message [-----

Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2020 11:57 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Thunderbird talking way too much
 
On Thu, Apr 9, 2020 at 12:42 PM, Gene wrote:
My question is why this wasn’t caught by reports from blind people before the release version.
Gene, do you honestly think that there were many, if any, based on what has been seen here and on other screen reader and associated technology groups?

My point, which seems to have eluded you, is that I constantly see complaints about issues, but when I (or you, or anyone else) bring up the fact that you must report them if you want to have any hope of their being resolved there is generally nothing but the proverbial crickets in response.

I have no reason to believe, based on what I have observed on multiple blind technology related groups, that most (and I do mean most, the vast majority most) screen reader users have ever filed a trouble ticket/bug report.  And until or unless they do they should not expect prompt attention to issues that may not even have been recognized.

Each user demographic is and should be responsible for advocating for themselves by reporting the issues they encounter to those who can fix them.  No one else will, or should.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363  

Power is being told you're not loved and not being destroyed by it.

       ~ Madonna

 

 


Re: How can I get the date from a Braille display?

Sarah k Alawami
 

I don't use a braille display, and You I think said you did this but what happens if you use insert f12, f12, then look at your display. Does the date show then? Sorry if I seem stupid, but I am in terms of braille displays. Lool!

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website.

to subscribe to the feed click here and you can also follow us on twitter

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on [twitch.](http://twitch.tv/ke7zum] Feel free to give the channel a follow and see what is up there.

For stream archives, products you can buy and more visit my main lbry page and my tffp lbry page YOu will also be able to buy some of my products and eBooks there.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 9 Apr 2020, at 10:56, Daniel Gartmann wrote:

 

 

Yes. This would work. But I want the same, convenient way of reading the date without leaving the application I am working in, but from my Braille keyboard.

 

If I use Windows+b, I am taken out of the application and have to get back to it using Alt+tab.

 

Thanks for the input.

 

Daniel

 

 

 

Fra: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> På vegne af David Griffith
Sendt: 9. april 2020 17:19
Til: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Emne: Re: [nvda] How can I get the date from a Braille display?

 

I cannot completely vouch for this working with a braille display as I am only just getting to grips with this myself but using a qwerty keyboards windows B and arrowing until focus is on the clock will announce not just the time but the date with speech in NVDA.

I hope that you get the same result with a braille display.

David Griffith

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Daniel Gartmann
Sent: 09 April 2020 15:47
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] How can I get the date from a Braille display?

 

 

Hi all,

 

On a laptop keyboard, I am able to get the date by pressing NVDA F12 twice quickly.

 

On my Freedom Scientific Focus40 Blue, I can’t seem to do two presses quickly of NVDA+F12. The second press of F12 just sends an F12 through and I get the Save As dialog.

 

Any suggestions greatly appreciated.

 

Daniel

 


locked Re: Thunderbird talking way too much

 

On Thu, Apr 9, 2020 at 01:52 PM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:
Take mee6. The developers basically ,looked at NvDa said, We can't help you" and just ignored every other bug report I submitted. In fact they only give me sigted instructions like 'drag this to that." Yeah, I've seen all of this before.
And, again, so?   This gives you instant feedback that the developers of this product care not one whit about accessibility.  That, in and of itself, tells you to abandon hope and seek an alternative.

In this world, all of us have been subjected to something like this, though not necessarily specific to accessibility.  You shake the dust from your sandals and move along in the attempt to find a tool that works.

Also, you really do have to understand that many sighted people don't understand that drag and drop is not something that blind people do.  Very often you can end up educating support reps about keyboard shortcuts and how to find them.  There is no logical reason to believe that most of the sighted world does or ever will know nearly what you know about keyboard shortcuts and many other aspects of how blind people use computers.  So it is up to you to make the attempt to educate.

As a seeing person who has been intimately involved with accessibility for some time now, I am finding that the lack of recognition on the accessibility users side about why things are the way they are, much of it due to pure ignorance on the part of the majority of sighted people, mystifying.  Why on earth would you expect your average Joe or Jane sitting at a help desk, who might never have even spoken to an accessibility software user before, to just know this stuff?  That's exactly how and why dedicated help lines have come into existence at major players like Microsoft and Google, to name two.  It's completely unreasonable to believe that most of the sighted world should know one darned thing about screen readers, or that they even exist.  The blind community is very, very small as a proportion of all computer users.  Resources get allocated based on that, and I can only imagine what fraction of a percent of all calls to help desks come from screen reader users.  That matters, and needs to be taken into consideration.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363  

Power is being told you're not loved and not being destroyed by it.

       ~ Madonna

 

 


locked Re: Thunderbird talking way too much

Rob Hudson
 

Brian Vogel <@britechguy> wrote:
And this differs from those made by most of us, for most bugs, precisely how?
It doesn't. My message was a summary of reasons why screen reader users often don't bother reporting. Instead of you snarking at them.


locked Re: Thunderbird talking way too much

 

On Thu, Apr 9, 2020 at 01:34 PM, Rob Hudson wrote:
Yes, doing so [making bug reports] may be helpful in a lot of cases, but in most of them, it can be a futile exercise.
And this differs from those made by most of us, for most bugs, precisely how?  [And I'm serious.]

If you don't make 'em, you have zero, zip, nada right to complain that "no one pays attention to accessibility issues."   You can't fix what you don't know about, and there will be plenty of times where competing priorities mean your particular issue is near the bottom of the heap.  But if you don't report it it's not in the heap at all.

It really is that simple.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363  

Power is being told you're not loved and not being destroyed by it.

       ~ Madonna

 

 


Re: How can I get the date from a Braille display?

Daniel Gartmann
 

 

 

Yes. This would work. But I want the same, convenient way of reading the date without leaving the application I am working in, but from my Braille keyboard.

 

If I use Windows+b, I am taken out of the application and have to get back to it using Alt+tab.

 

Thanks for the input.

 

Daniel

 

 

 

Fra: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> På vegne af David Griffith
Sendt: 9. april 2020 17:19
Til: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Emne: Re: [nvda] How can I get the date from a Braille display?

 

I cannot completely vouch for this working with a braille display as I am only just getting to grips with this myself but using a qwerty keyboards windows B and arrowing until focus is on the clock will announce not just the time but the date with speech in NVDA.

I hope that you get the same result with a braille display.

David Griffith

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Daniel Gartmann
Sent: 09 April 2020 15:47
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] How can I get the date from a Braille display?

 

 

Hi all,

 

On a laptop keyboard, I am able to get the date by pressing NVDA F12 twice quickly.

 

On my Freedom Scientific Focus40 Blue, I can’t seem to do two presses quickly of NVDA+F12. The second press of F12 just sends an F12 through and I get the Save As dialog.

 

Any suggestions greatly appreciated.

 

Daniel

 


locked Re: Thunderbird talking way too much

Sarah k Alawami
 

Yep. Take mee6. The developers basically ,looked at NvDa said, We can't help you" and just ignored every other bug report I submitted. In fact they only give me sigted instructions like 'drag this to that." Yeah, I've seen all of this before.

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website.

to subscribe to the feed click here and you can also follow us on twitter

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on [twitch.](http://twitch.tv/ke7zum] Feel free to give the channel a follow and see what is up there.

For stream archives, products you can buy and more visit my main lbry page and my tffp lbry page YOu will also be able to buy some of my products and eBooks there.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 9 Apr 2020, at 10:34, Rob Hudson wrote:

Brian Vogel britechguy@... wrote:

My point, which seems to have eluded you, is that I constantly see complaints about issues, but when I (or you, or anyone else) bring up the fact that you must report them if you want to have any hope of their being resolved there is generally nothing but the proverbial crickets in response.

This is likely because too many screen reader users have seen the, sorry but I can't duplicate this. Next! Message in response. In addition, there are some larger issues.
Much of the accessibility stack is integrated into the frameworks needed to build the applications; coders of the actual applications built within the framework itself rarely go out of their way to make their appications accessible. That their apps built with the framework are accessible is a happy coincidence. In other words the fact that Firefox and Thunderbird are largely accessible with screen readers is not necessarily due to someone at Mozilla going, hmm, lets open up NVDA/Jaws/whatever and see how this new feature works--although organizations like Mozilla <em>do</em> in fact have some a11y testers. I don't know how many programmers are actually screen reader users there, however. But anyway the accessibility support is there because the coding frameworks they use to construct the applications have basic accessibility built in to them. witness such browsers as Pale Moon, which have this infrastructure removed and which are almost completely unusable with screen readers.
Speaking in general about bug reporting. When you report an issue about an application not working with your screen reader, it is likely you're going to get a, wow, I didn't know about screen readers, response. Because the developers did not know their applications could be used at all by us. Then, you'll either get responses that fall into three categories:
1. Sorry, but I don't know anything about screen readers, so I don't know what to do to fix it. Thank you for your support.
2. Well, let's see if we can make it work. What do I need to do to make this thing work with your ... screen reader?
3. Crickets.
In category one, you're pretty much out of luck. In category two, unless you know about programming there's not much you can do either. And of course in ccategory three, again, out of luck.
This is a basic summary of why a lot of screen reader users don't report bugs. Yes, doing so may be helpful in a lot of cases, ut in most of them, it can be a futile exercise.


locked Re: Thunderbird talking way too much

Rob Hudson
 

Brian Vogel <@britechguy> wrote:
My point, which seems to have eluded you, is that I constantly see complaints about issues, but when I (or you, or anyone else) bring up the fact that you must report them if you want to have any hope of their being resolved there is generally nothing but the proverbial crickets in response.
This is likely because too many screen reader users have seen the, sorry but I can't duplicate this. Next! Message in response. In addition, there are some larger issues.
Much of the accessibility stack is integrated into the frameworks needed to build the applications; coders of the actual applications built within the framework itself rarely go out of their way to make their appications accessible. That their apps built with the framework are accessible is a happy coincidence. In other words the fact that Firefox and Thunderbird are largely accessible with screen readers is not necessarily due to someone at Mozilla going, hmm, lets open up NVDA/Jaws/whatever and see how this new feature works--although organizations like Mozilla <em>do</em> in fact have some a11y testers. I don't know how many programmers are actually screen reader users there, however. But anyway the accessibility support is there because the coding frameworks they use to construct the applications have basic accessibility built in to them. witness such browsers as Pale Moon, which have this infrastructure removed and which are almost completely unusable with screen readers.
Speaking in general about bug reporting. When you report an issue about an application not working with your screen reader, it is likely you're going to get a, wow, I didn't know about screen readers, response. Because the developers did not know their applications could be used at all by us. Then, you'll either get responses that fall into three categories:
1. Sorry, but I don't know anything about screen readers, so I don't know what to do to fix it. Thank you for your support.
2. Well, let's see if we can make it work. What do I need to do to make this thing work with your ... screen reader?
3. Crickets.
In category one, you're pretty much out of luck. In category two, unless you know about programming there's not much you can do either. And of course in ccategory three, again, out of luck.
This is a basic summary of why a lot of screen reader users don't report bugs. Yes, doing so may be helpful in a lot of cases, ut in most of them, it can be a futile exercise.


Re: google chrome version 81

 

On Thu, Apr 9, 2020 at 12:35 PM, mohammad suliman wrote:
I have reported it on Chromium bug tracker:
And a huge, massively huge thank you from me for having done so!!   Now if others activate that link, navigate to what NVDA announces as the "Star border" button (I think) and continues to say "to star this issue," and activates that button, we'll be getting somewhere.

In addition to bug reports like this, which are vital, the mechanisms that allow other users to effectively make the statement, "Hey, I've got this issue, too," by using them is what makes an issue bubble up in the priority for attention queue.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363  

Power is being told you're not loved and not being destroyed by it.

       ~ Madonna

 

 


locked Re: Thunderbird talking way too much

 

On Thu, Apr 9, 2020 at 12:42 PM, Gene wrote:
My question is why this wasn’t caught by reports from blind people before the release version.
Gene, do you honestly think that there were many, if any, based on what has been seen here and on other screen reader and associated technology groups?

My point, which seems to have eluded you, is that I constantly see complaints about issues, but when I (or you, or anyone else) bring up the fact that you must report them if you want to have any hope of their being resolved there is generally nothing but the proverbial crickets in response.

I have no reason to believe, based on what I have observed on multiple blind technology related groups, that most (and I do mean most, the vast majority most) screen reader users have ever filed a trouble ticket/bug report.  And until or unless they do they should not expect prompt attention to issues that may not even have been recognized.

Each user demographic is and should be responsible for advocating for themselves by reporting the issues they encounter to those who can fix them.  No one else will, or should.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363  

Power is being told you're not loved and not being destroyed by it.

       ~ Madonna

 

 


locked Re: Thunderbird talking way too much

cecropia64
 

hi:


i just turned off the status bar and the issue is gone.   made me happy.  thanks

On 4/9/2020 12:15 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
On Thu, Apr 9, 2020 at 12:01 PM, Gene wrote:
This is just the kind of thing you would expect to see implemented if a sighted person or persons, who know nothing about proper implementation of accessibility, add or design accessibility functions.  Just because something talks doesn't mean it is practical or properly usable.
And even if virtually all of the sighted developers actually have been trained extensively, or have long experience with, developing accessibility features there will always be the newbie who could slip.  And anyone who thinks that a piece of software as complex as Thunderbird undergoes testing of every line of code again, with human eyes and ears, at every update is deluding themselves.

On the topic on this group regarding Google Chrome Version 81, member Felix G. wrote, in part, "Broken PDF support for sighted users would never have slipped past
quality control, which pretty much informs us where we stand on the global scale of things."   And the fact is that small minorities, and blind users are a tiny, tiny, minority of users, will not be at the top of the list of concerns at all times.  And given that any software developer has many constituencies to please, focus on their primary constituency is appropriate.  When you add to that the fact that there are very, very few sighted people who have the vaguest clue regarding the actual nuts and bolts of daily use of screen readers in particular, it's entirely possible for things to slip through as the result of ignorance, not malice.  But the fact of the matter is that these days accessibility is, by and large, being designed in from the ground up, and that's a major, major change and step forward.  There will be occasional bugs that cause things to break, but here's the thing, that happens and happens to all users at some point or another.  The way to get these things addressed is to use the mechanism available for a given development team to report issues.  In the case of Thunderbird that's Bugzilla.  In the case of NVDA it's GitHub.  There are others.

I just assisted someone the other day in creating a Bugzilla account so that she could report some major accessibility issues, including this verbosity one, that showed up in the 70b3 beta of Thunderbird.  That's what has to be done.  And it's the individuals who encounter the issues who should be doing it.  And I am offering my assistance in helping anyone who wants to set up a bug reporting account for any given piece of software to do so, as well as figuring out the specific reporting process steps.  If you all don't do this then you have absolutely no right to expect anyone else will and, believe me, "someone else" won't.

 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363  

Power is being told you're not loved and not being destroyed by it.

       ~ Madonna

 

 


locked Re: Thunderbird talking way too much

matthew dyer
 

Marry,



I just ran into this same problem.  Try this.  Go the view menu and right error to the toolbars and enter on status bar to hide it and this should saulve your problem.  Thanks.


Matthew

On 4/8/2020 2:56 PM, Mary Otten wrote:
Hi all,


I just updated Thunderbird, and all of a sudden, it is talking way too much. For instance, each time I delete a message, I hear about how that message was deleted and added to trash, or some such. There are other announcements as well, rendering the experience entirely too verbose and inefficient for getting through email. I'm using the latest nvda, and as far as I know, there haven't been changes to the mozilla apps enhancements add on which I have been using without incident until now. My t-bird version is 68.7.0; it just updated to that.


Mary




locked Re: Thunderbird talking way too much

Gene
 

My point isn’t that there won’t be mistakes.  My question is why this wasn’t caught by reports from blind people before the release version.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2020 11:15 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Thunderbird talking way too much
 
On Thu, Apr 9, 2020 at 12:01 PM, Gene wrote:
This is just the kind of thing you would expect to see implemented if a sighted person or persons, who know nothing about proper implementation of accessibility, add or design accessibility functions.  Just because something talks doesn't mean it is practical or properly usable.
And even if virtually all of the sighted developers actually have been trained extensively, or have long experience with, developing accessibility features there will always be the newbie who could slip.  And anyone who thinks that a piece of software as complex as Thunderbird undergoes testing of every line of code again, with human eyes and ears, at every update is deluding themselves.

On the topic on this group regarding Google Chrome Version 81, member Felix G. wrote, in part, "Broken PDF support for sighted users would never have slipped past
quality control, which pretty much informs us where we stand on the global scale of things."   And the fact is that small minorities, and blind users are a tiny, tiny, minority of users, will not be at the top of the list of concerns at all times.  And given that any software developer has many constituencies to please, focus on their primary constituency is appropriate.  When you add to that the fact that there are very, very few sighted people who have the vaguest clue regarding the actual nuts and bolts of daily use of screen readers in particular, it's entirely possible for things to slip through as the result of ignorance, not malice.  But the fact of the matter is that these days accessibility is, by and large, being designed in from the ground up, and that's a major, major change and step forward.  There will be occasional bugs that cause things to break, but here's the thing, that happens and happens to all users at some point or another.  The way to get these things addressed is to use the mechanism available for a given development team to report issues.  In the case of Thunderbird that's Bugzilla.  In the case of NVDA it's GitHub.  There are others.

I just assisted someone the other day in creating a Bugzilla account so that she could report some major accessibility issues, including this verbosity one, that showed up in the 70b3 beta of Thunderbird.  That's what has to be done.  And it's the individuals who encounter the issues who should be doing it.  And I am offering my assistance in helping anyone who wants to set up a bug reporting account for any given piece of software to do so, as well as figuring out the specific reporting process steps.  If you all don't do this then you have absolutely no right to expect anyone else will and, believe me, "someone else" won't.

 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363  

Power is being told you're not loved and not being destroyed by it.

       ~ Madonna

 

 


Re: google chrome version 81

mohammad suliman
 

Hello all,
I also experience the mentioned issue. I have reported it on Chromium bug tracker:


People are welcomed to star it so hopefully it gets more attention.
Thanks!



On Thu, 9 Apr 2020 at 17:42 Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:
Just as an FYI, Chrome updated to, Version 81.0.4044.92 (Official Build) (64-bit), on my machine this morning when I went to check the current version.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363  

Power is being told you're not loved and not being destroyed by it.

       ~ Madonna

 

 



Re: WeatherPlus, adding new cities

Adriano Barbieri
 

Hi Vincent,


From what I understand, it seems that in the passage you didn't import the cities.
you could export a copy and retrieve it as needed, but if you didn't,have then you have lost the cities.

Regards
Adriano


Il 04/04/2020 12:13, Vincent Le Goff ha scritto:

Hi everyone,


I know the question has been asked many times on this list and I'm sorry to add yet a new one, but I can't find the answer anywhere.


I'm using the last version of WeatherPlus with the stable version of NVDA and I don't find how to add new cities, or even change my current city.  Yes, I have moved, so I would appreciate to retrieve up-to-date information about the weather.  When I select "manage temporary cities" it seems I can only select in a list... with only one city (the current selection).  No button to add or remove.  In the "manage cities" settings, there's a simple text field with, again, only one line.  No button to add a new city or search for one.  There was a documentation in this menu before but it seems it has vanished.  Am I missing something?


Thanks in advance,


Vincent





locked Re: Thunderbird talking way too much

 

On Thu, Apr 9, 2020 at 12:10 PM, Howard Traxler wrote:
How does one revert to an earlier version of Thunderbird?
Why on earth do that when it has already been reported here that simply turning off the Status Bar virtually (perhaps completely) eliminates the issue?

All it takes to try that out is hitting ALT+V, navigating to the Toolbars item (which you should be on at the very top to begin with), hitting enter to open it, arrowing down to the toggle/checkbox for the Status Bar item, and unchecking/toggling it off.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363  

Power is being told you're not loved and not being destroyed by it.

       ~ Madonna

 

 


locked Re: Thunderbird talking way too much

 

On Thu, Apr 9, 2020 at 12:01 PM, Gene wrote:
This is just the kind of thing you would expect to see implemented if a sighted person or persons, who know nothing about proper implementation of accessibility, add or design accessibility functions.  Just because something talks doesn't mean it is practical or properly usable.
And even if virtually all of the sighted developers actually have been trained extensively, or have long experience with, developing accessibility features there will always be the newbie who could slip.  And anyone who thinks that a piece of software as complex as Thunderbird undergoes testing of every line of code again, with human eyes and ears, at every update is deluding themselves.

On the topic on this group regarding Google Chrome Version 81, member Felix G. wrote, in part, "Broken PDF support for sighted users would never have slipped past
quality control, which pretty much informs us where we stand on the global scale of things."   And the fact is that small minorities, and blind users are a tiny, tiny, minority of users, will not be at the top of the list of concerns at all times.  And given that any software developer has many constituencies to please, focus on their primary constituency is appropriate.  When you add to that the fact that there are very, very few sighted people who have the vaguest clue regarding the actual nuts and bolts of daily use of screen readers in particular, it's entirely possible for things to slip through as the result of ignorance, not malice.  But the fact of the matter is that these days accessibility is, by and large, being designed in from the ground up, and that's a major, major change and step forward.  There will be occasional bugs that cause things to break, but here's the thing, that happens and happens to all users at some point or another.  The way to get these things addressed is to use the mechanism available for a given development team to report issues.  In the case of Thunderbird that's Bugzilla.  In the case of NVDA it's GitHub.  There are others.

I just assisted someone the other day in creating a Bugzilla account so that she could report some major accessibility issues, including this verbosity one, that showed up in the 70b3 beta of Thunderbird.  That's what has to be done.  And it's the individuals who encounter the issues who should be doing it.  And I am offering my assistance in helping anyone who wants to set up a bug reporting account for any given piece of software to do so, as well as figuring out the specific reporting process steps.  If you all don't do this then you have absolutely no right to expect anyone else will and, believe me, "someone else" won't.

 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363  

Power is being told you're not loved and not being destroyed by it.

       ~ Madonna

 

 


locked Re: Thunderbird talking way too much

Howard Traxler
 

How does one revert to an earlier version of Thunderbird?  Thanks.

On 4/9/2020 11:01 AM, Gene wrote:
This problem raises serious questions about how accessibility is implemented as Thunderbird is developed.
This is just the kind of thing you would expect to see implemented if a sighted person or persons, who know nothing about proper implementation of accessibility, add or design accessibility functions.  Just because something talks doesn't mean it is practical or properly usable.
How did such a function get past beta testing or even alpha testing?  Unless Thunderbird changes how it evaluates accessibility changes or new implementations, there will be a constant threat of future versions presenting new and completely unnecessary accessibility problems.  I would suggest those who use the program contact the developers about this problem.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
*From:* Brian Vogel <mailto:@britechguy>
*Sent:* Thursday, April 09, 2020 9:38 AM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] Thunderbird talking way too much
My guess is that the good folks at Thunderbird had gotten complaints that it was impossible to know, for instance, whether all new e-mail had completed downloading when you fired up T-bird at the start of the day, and decided to expose a lot more information presented on the status bar to the screen reader.

What they probably hadn't counted on is the fact that a screen reader will detect changes and read them as they're detected, and that's really, really irritating if you're reading your e-mail messages and status stuff just barges in while doing so.

If they have sighted folks doing testing for these new functions, it wouldn't surprise me if they just sat there when the status bar was really active watching to see that it was being reported correctly, never moving along like one normally would into reading messages.  And I can get that, as even though I have the status bar displayed, I virtually never look at it at all.  The occasional glance occurs, but I wouldn't really miss it at all if it weren't there by default.

It's well-nigh impossible for most of us who see to have any real idea of exactly how screen reader users typically approach using various pieces of software (and I include myself, though I do have at least some idea at this point). And there will never be enough in-house actual screen reader users doing accessibility testing.  That's one of the reasons I push so hard to get folks who encounter accessibility issues to file bug/issue/trouble reports with the companies that produce the software.  You all are able to give a far more accurate description of what the software is doing that you don't want with the screen reader as well as what the preferred behavior would be.  Also, given your years of end-user experience, you're often in a far better position to know whether the issue you're having is with the screen reader or due to a change in the software you're using the screen reader to access, and that's often the key to getting to the root of the problem as well as the fix.

--

Brian *-*Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363

*Power is being told you're not loved and not being destroyed by it.*

       ~ Madonna


locked Re: Thunderbird talking way too much

Gene
 

This problem raises serious questions about how accessibility is implemented as Thunderbird is developed. 
 
This is just the kind of thing you would expect to see implemented if a sighted person or persons, who know nothing about proper implementation of accessibility, add or design accessibility functions.  Just because something talks doesn't mean it is practical or properly usable. 
 
How did such a function get past beta testing or even alpha testing?  Unless Thunderbird changes how it evaluates accessibility changes or new implementations, there will be a constant threat of future versions presenting new and completely unnecessary accessibility problems.  I would suggest those who use the program contact the developers about this problem.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2020 9:38 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Thunderbird talking way too much
 
My guess is that the good folks at Thunderbird had gotten complaints that it was impossible to know, for instance, whether all new e-mail had completed downloading when you fired up T-bird at the start of the day, and decided to expose a lot more information presented on the status bar to the screen reader.

What they probably hadn't counted on is the fact that a screen reader will detect changes and read them as they're detected, and that's really, really irritating if you're reading your e-mail messages and status stuff just barges in while doing so.

If they have sighted folks doing testing for these new functions, it wouldn't surprise me if they just sat there when the status bar was really active watching to see that it was being reported correctly, never moving along like one normally would into reading messages.  And I can get that, as even though I have the status bar displayed, I virtually never look at it at all.  The occasional glance occurs, but I wouldn't really miss it at all if it weren't there by default.

It's well-nigh impossible for most of us who see to have any real idea of exactly how screen reader users typically approach using various pieces of software (and I include myself, though I do have at least some idea at this point).  And there will never be enough in-house actual screen reader users doing accessibility testing.  That's one of the reasons I push so hard to get folks who encounter accessibility issues to file bug/issue/trouble reports with the companies that produce the software.  You all are able to give a far more accurate description of what the software is doing that you don't want with the screen reader as well as what the preferred behavior would be.  Also, given your years of end-user experience, you're often in a far better position to know whether the issue you're having is with the screen reader or due to a change in the software you're using the screen reader to access, and that's often the key to getting to the root of the problem as well as the fix.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363  

Power is being told you're not loved and not being destroyed by it.

       ~ Madonna