Date   

Re: Lines with unknown characters aren't spoken

Tyler Spivey
 

What are you using for a synth?
Does this also happen with eSpeak?

On 2/19/2017 12:43 PM, Anne Günther wrote:
Hi
This might be already a well-known problem, but here goes anyway.
When scrolling through line by line, lines that contain unknown
character symbols aren't spoken at all.
That usually concerns lines with emojies.
Any suggestions what to do about that?
I'm using nvda 2016.4 and windows1-0.
Guenni



Lines with unknown characters aren't spoken

Anne Günther
 

Hi
This might be already a well-known problem, but here goes anyway.
When scrolling through line by line, lines that contain unknown character symbols aren't spoken at all.
That usually concerns lines with emojies.
Any suggestions what to do about that?
I'm using nvda 2016.4 and windows1-0.
Guenni


Re: strange issue that I can't run down.

Gene
 

Not every problem is any more than a rare occurrence.  Is the game self-voicing?  Maybe the voice crashed.  What version of Windows are you using?  There probably is a utility that will tell you what crashed today.  This or that event may occur and mean nothing other than at some point, x or y may occur.  If the problem continues, that's another matter.  If you turn every isolated incident into a major event or cause for worry, you won't have a moment's peace. 
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2017 1:35 PM
Subject: [nvda] strange issue that I can't run down.

Hi list ken here something very very frustrating happened today during a voicechat.  was playing golf with the jim kitchen games during a hole in fact as the voice was speaking telling me how far to shoot all at once it stopped talking in mid sentence no sound came out.  at first thought my speaker had died but when switched off no sound out of the headset.  my microphone was keyed everything was running.  when my key was cleared heard the moderator say he had cleared me I heard his voice.  in other words everything was working. I had to sign out and sign back in.  NVDA the kiteche game and talking communities were all operating.  signed out signed back in and thanks to my computer ken shoots a zero on golf today my game was lost on the signout.  so what happened everything was working and microphone was keyed and I could still hear sounds.  is it NVDA is it the soundcard is it an update needed on the soundcard


strange issue that I can't run down.

ken lawrence
 

Hi list ken here something very very frustrating happened today during a voicechat.  was playing golf with the jim kitchen games during a hole in fact as the voice was speaking telling me how far to shoot all at once it stopped talking in mid sentence no sound came out.  at first thought my speaker had died but when switched off no sound out of the headset.  my microphone was keyed everything was running.  when my key was cleared heard the moderator say he had cleared me I heard his voice.  in other words everything was working. I had to sign out and sign back in.  NVDA the kiteche game and talking communities were all operating.  signed out signed back in and thanks to my computer ken shoots a zero on golf today my game was lost on the signout.  so what happened everything was working and microphone was keyed and I could still hear sounds.  is it NVDA is it the soundcard is it an update needed on the soundcard


Re: NVDA Accessible Database Software

Jacob Kruger
 

Brian, there are ways to sort of automatically convert a MSAccess application into compiled executables, but, really not sure how well they'll work:

http://tinyurl.com/gt9nnzy


But, my focus area is web application development, and, the last time I used .mdb files was a long time ago, and, merely used them as data source, while interface was still based on either ASP, or PHP.


Stay well


Jacob Kruger
Blind Biker
Skype: BlindZA
"Resistance is futile, but, acceptance is versatile..."

On 2017-02-19 14:26, Brian's Mail list account wrote:
Well the current database was written as a series of visual basic macros in a Microsoft access shell.
The point is that its a talking newspaper database which allows one to ad/remove people suspend people for certain dates, holidays etc, log in pouches, and print the bar coded labels was we scan them in when they return. We also let it create a txt log file with those pouches no held locally or returned via the post and it gives a nuumber of pouches so we know how many ram sticks to be copied each week.
It has some inaccessibilinaccessible parts. Access edit areas do not speak when you cursor or delete things from them, but can be tabbed to.
At present, we do not have an up to date version of the full access package, as it seems not to be part of standard ocffice these days. Our version is 2002, but the database can run under runtimes on later machines and versions of windows but the hacked visual basic does not do printer switching correctly or at all and cannot be edited on the new machine without a full version of access.
None of us have the abiilty to work with this level of programming. I write batch files but have not really got anywhere with visual basic or python since the indentation is hard to get right for me.

The database was written in what I call a tonka toy way, so anyone can work out how to use it, ie it plays files little wavs when user action is needed and one saying ok when all is well etc. So we have this person missed last week, press enter to clear, which make the database put this into a log. It may say at the end there are 25 users not logged, press yes to process no to stop.
Ifdf you press yes then you get the missing ones one at a time which allows manual looking for that pouch at the studio as we have several for each user. Obviously if you find it and hit yes then its logged no leaves it unlogged and hence in the final log file output. at any time during any logging it can print a new label for that user so we can fix faded and torn ones, including the text and the barcode.

Yes we have a bar code font which is just a coding of the number of the person in the database. they are not stored alphabetically.

We most certainly do not need a spreadsheet this would be far too hard to do without making errors. the current system is almost impossible to screw up as it won't allow people to do things they are not allowed to do.
Bear in mind we are all volunteers with mainly no computer literacy at all.


You can if you want look anyone up by either inserting part of the surname or their number into a find box and that will show when they last returned a pouch to save looking at the log files or paper logs.


It all works very well in XP but only it seems on the one laptop type we have. an attempt to port it to another newer dell still running xp fails with no printer defined for no known reason, which means one assumes that the way the driver is activated is hardware specific or maybe the thing looks this up in a registry entry or.ini file as the original database ran on windows 98.
However this is getting a bit off topic here, and all I was after was something I might be able to program in. This database was built from one I originally wrote when I could see on an old ZX spectrum from the ground up in basic. It worked well but of course could not do bar codes etc, though most of the rest is much the same except we used noises from the sound to indicate things not little wav files.

In that case all data was held in two linked arrays of several dimensions held in a ram disk during use and saved to disc when you needed to turn off.

Brian

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----- Original Message ----- From: "Jacob Kruger" <jacob@blindza.co.za>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2017 12:48 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA Accessible Database Software


Really depends on platform, database engine/format, etc. etc.


As in, what do you want to use the data for, do with it, etc.?


Ask since I am, primarily, a web application developer, working with PHP, MySQL, etc., and, for MySQL, besides working directly with the console/command line, I use the single-web-page admin interface, adminer, but, that runs against a localised dev. web server running here on my machine, either under XAMPP or WAMP web server implementations.


If you're talking about something similar to microsoft access database interface, which is accessible, then am not too sure about that side of it, but, what about something under iether oepnOffice or libreOffice?


And, haven't checked out MS Accessess myself for quite a long while, but, do at times work with excel spreadsheets?


Stay well


Jacob Kruger
Blind Biker
Skype: BlindZA
"Resistance is futile, but, acceptance is versatile..."

On 2017-02-18 12:15, Carlos wrote:
Hello All!

I know that this question has come up on list many times.

I would like to be able to create/process database files.

Is there any database software paid/free that is accessible with NVDA? I know that database software is so graphical in its nature that its controls are not accessible to screen readers! But, there has to be a way for the blind to be able to use database software for work/home purposes?

Hopefully, since the last time this question was asked someone has actually found NVDA database accessible software? Or, accessible database software that is accessible in any other screen reader?

Thank You! For all your recommendations!!!







jtg frustration

Joanne Michelle Stark
 

Anyone els having issues with logging into the blind gamers service through the NVDA menu to use this add-on? It’s for translating Japanese to English. Thanks for feedback. Not sure how to proceed. Reset password, typed everything in correctly, and I still get an error message. There does not appear to be a way to contact the developer via the blind gamers websige.


Re: Working with not accessible interfaces. Thoughts and question.

Alexey Zhelezov
 

Dear Brian,


I am sorry I could not clearly explain what I mean. I am new in the area. Probably the best way is working example, but the person I am working with is sleeping at the moment (he is in US) and I do not want publish completely untested staff.


But I can try to explain. Let say Windows Calculator is written without accessibility and without keyboard support. So while it is displayed as now, it can be operated by mouse only and NVDA say PANE when focusing it.

Than using the concept, someone with sight can define coordinates for digits and operations buttons and coordinates of the result string. Binding numerical and operational keys as gestures, add-on can click on corresponding buttons. After clicking and giving some time to update, result region is grabbed from the screen, passed to OCR and sent to speech. That way such calculator can be perceived as somehow accessible.

More complex elements like list boxes, check boxes, etc. can be defined the same way.


The concept is definitively not new. Clicking part has many incarnation, including an add-on for NVDA. OCR add-on for NVDA can grab and describe an image. What I could not find is a framework to use all that together. And my primary question either I just have not found it or it does not exist. Note that I know at least one big project for JAWS, CakeTalking, which partially use the concept, at least in part of recognizing some particular element states from graphics.


My answers to your questions.

The concept can work with particular software only and so will need an add-on per application. I mean it will not recognize arbitrary interface automatically, at least not before several experienced mathematicians and programmers work together several years.

I am not aware about any existing standard for that, my question was about the existence of it. From answers I guess it does not exist.

My current prototype is an add-on. But my experience with NVDA is still almost zero, so I do not know what is the best approach to represent virtual controls. May be Virtual Buffers, may be new handler. Controls should have persistent properties, at least the focus. Also recreating them all the time can be extremely system resources heavy. Everything I could find in NVDA so far is somehow underlying external objects oriented. Controls is my concept are completely artificial in that respect. So I am not excluding some changes in the core are required to make real integration. At the moment I just keep separate global objects and speakMessage directly. As I have mentioned before, the add-on is not even alpha, it is a prototype. 


I hope that clarify at least something.


Regards,

Alexey.




From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> on behalf of Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2017 1:50 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Working with not accessible interfaces. Thoughts and question.
 
You see the reason we are all a bit confused here is that the programs
mentioned in the first post would appear to not have any way to tell that
the images were controls, which is what the ocr add on cannot do either, it
can just detect words and help you move a cursor or mouse pointer to it. If
said program does not trigger an event to allow one to recognise what the
control actually does then you are still stuck.
 If the routine mentioned has somehow gotten around this impasse then yes we
need it if it can work on other software.
Some off the software you find on many web sites according to the sighted
looks windows like with buttons on the  screen, but to the screenreader it
may just say pane. these are the places where some kind of shortcut is
needed. If you are saying that there is a standard here which we are unaware
of and you have cracked it, then fine but if its only on just the one suite
of software its better put into a nvda add on for that suite of software,
rather than offering ait as a part of nvda itself. I just cannot get your
concept you are attempting to tell us about to be understandable.
 Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Alexey Zhelezov" <azslow3@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2017 10:02 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Working with not accessible interfaces. Thoughts and
question.


Dear Pranav,


I understand that generic solution you describe can be useful. But that is
much more technically challenging then simple approach I have described.

The process can be divided into following steps: find interface elements in
the image, recognize the state and if required OCR that element, convert the
information into accessible element.

In my case the first step is not automatic. For mentioned music software
that make sense, these interfaces normally have fixed size and content. In
term of Windows programming, they are resource defined dialogs. Apart from
periodic layout changes, for example excluded Classic theme in Window 8,
once the definition is done it can be reused by everyone.

What you describe assumes the first step is automatic and generic. Modern
OCRs, using very complicated mathematic, have managed to locate and
recognize text peaces, blocks and up to some level the layout. Bringing that
up to the level of interface elements recognition is a huge step. The
problem is that most elements are not distinguishable even for people, for
example there is no difference in picture between several lines of text,
table with one column and a list box. First selected item in the list box is
the same as the header of the table. And so on. People use own experience,
intuition and sometimes even the documentation to find that something on the
screen is an interactive element. Programs help there changing mouse cursor
shape and colors. Still people skip for example links in web page, thinking
that is just highlighted static text. Teach computer to be smarter then
human is too challenging for me, at least not for one man project during
free time.


Reading static images is different. I think better processing of embedded
images is more like a future request for existing OCR add-on for NVDA.


Regards,

Alexey.


________________________________
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> on behalf of Pranav Lal
<pranav.lal@...>
Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2017 5:03 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Working with not accessible interfaces. Thoughts and
question.


Dear Alexey,



If you are referring to a generic solution that would OCR an inaccessible
interface, parse it into its constituent elements like list boxes, combo
boxes, buttons and allow NVDA to interact with it, then yes, this is
something we need. I am not a user of music software therefore cannot
comment on that but for arguments sake take a program like google earth. The
menus may work but what about grabbing the text on the screen? Similarly,
take images imbedded into Microsoft Word documents. I can extract them from
a file but cannot read the images in context.



In addition, take mind mapping programs such as freemind.



Pranav







Re: Working with not accessible interfaces. Thoughts and question.

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

You see the reason we are all a bit confused here is that the programs mentioned in the first post would appear to not have any way to tell that the images were controls, which is what the ocr add on cannot do either, it can just detect words and help you move a cursor or mouse pointer to it. If said program does not trigger an event to allow one to recognise what the control actually does then you are still stuck.
If the routine mentioned has somehow gotten around this impasse then yes we need it if it can work on other software.
Some off the software you find on many web sites according to the sighted looks windows like with buttons on the screen, but to the screenreader it may just say pane. these are the places where some kind of shortcut is needed. If you are saying that there is a standard here which we are unaware of and you have cracked it, then fine but if its only on just the one suite of software its better put into a nvda add on for that suite of software, rather than offering ait as a part of nvda itself. I just cannot get your concept you are attempting to tell us about to be understandable.
Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Alexey Zhelezov" <azslow3@hotmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2017 10:02 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Working with not accessible interfaces. Thoughts and question.


Dear Pranav,


I understand that generic solution you describe can be useful. But that is much more technically challenging then simple approach I have described.

The process can be divided into following steps: find interface elements in the image, recognize the state and if required OCR that element, convert the information into accessible element.

In my case the first step is not automatic. For mentioned music software that make sense, these interfaces normally have fixed size and content. In term of Windows programming, they are resource defined dialogs. Apart from periodic layout changes, for example excluded Classic theme in Window 8, once the definition is done it can be reused by everyone.

What you describe assumes the first step is automatic and generic. Modern OCRs, using very complicated mathematic, have managed to locate and recognize text peaces, blocks and up to some level the layout. Bringing that up to the level of interface elements recognition is a huge step. The problem is that most elements are not distinguishable even for people, for example there is no difference in picture between several lines of text, table with one column and a list box. First selected item in the list box is the same as the header of the table. And so on. People use own experience, intuition and sometimes even the documentation to find that something on the screen is an interactive element. Programs help there changing mouse cursor shape and colors. Still people skip for example links in web page, thinking that is just highlighted static text. Teach computer to be smarter then human is too challenging for me, at least not for one man project during free time.


Reading static images is different. I think better processing of embedded images is more like a future request for existing OCR add-on for NVDA.


Regards,

Alexey.


________________________________
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> on behalf of Pranav Lal <pranav.lal@gmail.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2017 5:03 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Working with not accessible interfaces. Thoughts and question.


Dear Alexey,



If you are referring to a generic solution that would OCR an inaccessible interface, parse it into its constituent elements like list boxes, combo boxes, buttons and allow NVDA to interact with it, then yes, this is something we need. I am not a user of music software therefore cannot comment on that but for arguments sake take a program like google earth. The menus may work but what about grabbing the text on the screen? Similarly, take images imbedded into Microsoft Word documents. I can extract them from a file but cannot read the images in context.



In addition, take mind mapping programs such as freemind.



Pranav


Re: NVDA Accessible Database Software

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

Yes, I've written a longer description which I hope makes it plain, but since its only slightly nvda related I am mindfull not to hog things. I was just looking at the alternatives as its an area of computing I've not bothered with since my old 8 bit ground up writing of stuff days, when I had sight.

Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Travis Siegel" <tsiegel@softcon.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2017 10:53 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA Accessible Database Software


What is your definition of accessible? There are lots and lots of databases that have no native interface, because they use the command line, but folks have written interfaces, (and you can too if so desired with enough programmingknowledge). Mysql, mariadb, firebird, are just a few. They're all opensource, and all completely accessible if you don't mind learning sql in order to be able to talk to them in a way they can understand. If however, you're asking about databases like ms Access, only with graphical interfaces, I can't help, because the only database I use is mysql, and custom php interfaces if they're on my own servers, or PHP my admin if they're hosted elsewhere. You need to be more specific about exactly what it is you're looking for, then folks on this list can narrow down the options for you.


On Sat, 18 Feb 2017, Carlos wrote:
Hello All!

I know that this question has come up on list many times.

I would like to be able to create/process database files.

Is there any database software paid/free that is accessible with NVDA? I know that database software is so graphical in its nature that its controls are not accessible to screen readers! But, there has to be a way for the blind to be able to use database software for work/home purposes?

Hopefully, since the last time this question was asked someone has actually found NVDA database accessible software? Or, accessible database software that is accessible in any other screen reader?

Thank You! For all your recommendations!!!


--
Carlos Gonzalez - Los Angeles, CA. - gmjc341961@gmail.com




Re: Databasees aand nvda

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

Hi,not used that system I have to say. it seems to me that so many systems reinvent the wheel here.
Have a read of my last message and see if you think it can help us. The current one would probably work if we could sort out the visual basic script so it printed to the label pri enter without the problems that seem to bug the original one when it switches or rather does not switch printers!
Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Kuzma via Groups.Io" <rmkuzma=aol.com@groups.io>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2017 2:00 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Databasees aand nvda


Good morning,
You may want to look at visual dbase
I was a dbase programmer before I lost my sight andused the dos version
extensively.
Recently in the last two years I have been using visual dbase.
The interface is not totally accessible, but I have been able to get around
things.
I program in notepad plus plus and compile the program with dbase and it
works perfectly.
I have been developing a barcode program to interface with the id mate
quest.
I can print barcodes and have a free font I can share with you if you with.
Feel free to email me off list at
rmkuzma@aol.com if you would like any more info.
Also, you can download a free thirty day trial of their software.
Thanks and let me know if you would like any more info.
Rich

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian's
Mail list account
Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2017 5:54 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Databasees aand nvda

Hi I'd rather like to write a database, but really need something nvda can
work with.

I am not only looking for the classic things of a database but I need it to
be able to switch printers to print bar codes and reports via a normal
printer in the right views. also report things either by saying a message
without having to navigate to it or play a sound file when a scanning action

matches some criteria for that user.
Does anything out of the box allow such easy configuration?
I don't do visual basic, or .net as they seem to call this environment
these days, so I'd prefer a kind of module parameter based approach.
Brian

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Re: Significant Area Of Excel Where Ribbons simply Make No Sense and Don't Work

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

In many ways when I could see the configurable tool bar was a good way to get at often used stuff, quite what the reasoning was to shove stuff into this ribbon thing is lost on me, personally.
Its first incarnation was when I first encountered winamp, which tended to have just the one pull down with bits off of it.
Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Ron Canazzi" <aa2vm@roadrunner.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2017 1:25 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Significant Area Of Excel Where Ribbons simply Make No Sense and Don't Work


Thanks very much for this valuable information. Boy this is just what I
need!



On 2/18/2017 3:21 AM, Quentin Christensen wrote:
Hi Ron,

You are correct, and it is definitely a bug in Office (It works
exactly the same with no screen reader running). I have found one
workaround, which is when you hear NVDA read "split button", you know
the option opens a menu. While enter or space should work, if you
press alt+down arrow, it does open the menu.

Re items on the home ribbon, I have always had a bit of a concern with
the Home ribbon. After all, items on the other ribbons are more or
less logical (there are a few, ok a lot, you could argue, but bear
with me) - the Home ribbon, however, is purely what Microsoft THINK
people need access to more regularly.

I couldn't understand why half the Word home ribbon was taken up with
Styles when Word 2007 came out - after all, a good portion of Word
users still likely couldn't tell you what styles are, let alone use them.

Back to inserting rows and columns specifically, and I can give you
another way to do that as well:

CONTROL+SHIFT+= (CONTROL, SHIFT and EQUALS) or CONTROL+PLUS.

If you have one or more full rows selected (SHIFT+SPACEBAR btw) when
you press this, it will automatically insert one or more rows above
the selected rows (same number of rows as you have selected).

If you have one or more full columns selected (CONTROL+SPACEBAR for
that one), then it inserts columns.

If you don't have a full row or column selected, it will open a dialog
asking whether you want to shift cells right, shift cells down, insert
a row or insert a column.

(Note that those are all Excel commands, there is nothing specific to
NVDA there.)

Here endeth the lesson :) All this and more will be in the Microsoft
Excel with NVDA training module, which will be available later this year.

Regards

Quentin.

On Sat, Feb 18, 2017 at 5:37 PM, Ron Canazzi <aa2vm@roadrunner.com
<mailto:aa2vm@roadrunner.com>> wrote:

Hi Group,


I have started a new thread on this ribbon business since some
have complained that the other thread had drifted away from the
original intent.


Here's one big issue with ribbons and Excel.

If one wants to insert a structural element of a work book such as
a row, column area or sheet, one cannot do this by navigating the
ribbons. The short cut which I will describe does work, but this
was given to me by someone who figured it out with sighted help.


First of all, try looking for the items under the insert portion
of the ribbon. They simply aren't there. Then via
experimentation and observation, you find a separate insert item
under the home portion of the ribbon under general. There's a
problem, if you simply navigate to the insert item, and press
either enter or space bar, nothing happens. somehow if you use the
shortcut alt + h, I, you do get a list of items. You can then
pick the desired item and press enter and follow the prompts or
whatever. If you don't know the designated shortcut sequence, you
simply can't find this item and get it to work with screen
readers: JAWS or NVDA.


I know I have seen this in other Microsoft programs such as Access
and Power Point as well.


I'm sorry folks, using ribbons does not give full access to screen
reader users in many programs as we used to have under the
standard drop down or pull down menus.


--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"







--
Quentin Christensen
Training Material Developer
Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now
available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

Ph +61 7 3149 3306 <tel:%2B61%207%203149%203306>
www.nvaccess.org <http://www.nvaccess.org/>
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
Twitter: @NVAccess
--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


Re: NVDA Accessible Database Software

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

Well the current database was written as a series of visual basic macros in a Microsoft access shell.
The point is that its a talking newspaper database which allows one to ad/remove people suspend people for certain dates, holidays etc, log in pouches, and print the bar coded labels was we scan them in when they return. We also let it create a txt log file with those pouches no held locally or returned via the post and it gives a nuumber of pouches so we know how many ram sticks to be copied each week.
It has some inaccessibilinaccessible parts. Access edit areas do not speak when you cursor or delete things from them, but can be tabbed to.
At present, we do not have an up to date version of the full access package, as it seems not to be part of standard ocffice these days. Our version is 2002, but the database can run under runtimes on later machines and versions of windows but the hacked visual basic does not do printer switching correctly or at all and cannot be edited on the new machine without a full version of access.
None of us have the abiilty to work with this level of programming. I write batch files but have not really got anywhere with visual basic or python since the indentation is hard to get right for me.

The database was written in what I call a tonka toy way, so anyone can work out how to use it, ie it plays files little wavs when user action is needed and one saying ok when all is well etc. So we have this person missed last week, press enter to clear, which make the database put this into a log. It may say at the end there are 25 users not logged, press yes to process no to stop.
Ifdf you press yes then you get the missing ones one at a time which allows manual looking for that pouch at the studio as we have several for each user. Obviously if you find it and hit yes then its logged no leaves it unlogged and hence in the final log file output. at any time during any logging it can print a new label for that user so we can fix faded and torn ones, including the text and the barcode.

Yes we have a bar code font which is just a coding of the number of the person in the database. they are not stored alphabetically.

We most certainly do not need a spreadsheet this would be far too hard to do without making errors. the current system is almost impossible to screw up as it won't allow people to do things they are not allowed to do.
Bear in mind we are all volunteers with mainly no computer literacy at all.


You can if you want look anyone up by either inserting part of the surname or their number into a find box and that will show when they last returned a pouch to save looking at the log files or paper logs.


It all works very well in XP but only it seems on the one laptop type we have. an attempt to port it to another newer dell still running xp fails with no printer defined for no known reason, which means one assumes that the way the driver is activated is hardware specific or maybe the thing looks this up in a registry entry or.ini file as the original database ran on windows 98.
However this is getting a bit off topic here, and all I was after was something I might be able to program in. This database was built from one I originally wrote when I could see on an old ZX spectrum from the ground up in basic. It worked well but of course could not do bar codes etc, though most of the rest is much the same except we used noises from the sound to indicate things not little wav files.

In that case all data was held in two linked arrays of several dimensions held in a ram disk during use and saved to disc when you needed to turn off.

Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Jacob Kruger" <jacob@blindza.co.za>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2017 12:48 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA Accessible Database Software


Really depends on platform, database engine/format, etc. etc.


As in, what do you want to use the data for, do with it, etc.?


Ask since I am, primarily, a web application developer, working with PHP, MySQL, etc., and, for MySQL, besides working directly with the console/command line, I use the single-web-page admin interface, adminer, but, that runs against a localised dev. web server running here on my machine, either under XAMPP or WAMP web server implementations.


If you're talking about something similar to microsoft access database interface, which is accessible, then am not too sure about that side of it, but, what about something under iether oepnOffice or libreOffice?


And, haven't checked out MS Accessess myself for quite a long while, but, do at times work with excel spreadsheets?


Stay well


Jacob Kruger
Blind Biker
Skype: BlindZA
"Resistance is futile, but, acceptance is versatile..."

On 2017-02-18 12:15, Carlos wrote:
Hello All!

I know that this question has come up on list many times.

I would like to be able to create/process database files.

Is there any database software paid/free that is accessible with NVDA? I know that database software is so graphical in its nature that its controls are not accessible to screen readers! But, there has to be a way for the blind to be able to use database software for work/home purposes?

Hopefully, since the last time this question was asked someone has actually found NVDA database accessible software? Or, accessible database software that is accessible in any other screen reader?

Thank You! For all your recommendations!!!



Re: Working with not accessible interfaces. Thoughts and question.

Alexey Zhelezov
 

Dear Pranav,


I understand that generic solution you describe can be useful. But that is much more technically challenging then simple approach I have described.

The process can be divided into following steps: find interface elements in the image, recognize the state and if required OCR that element, convert the information into accessible element.

In my case the first step is not automatic. For mentioned music software that make sense, these interfaces normally have fixed size and content. In term of Windows programming, they are resource defined dialogs. Apart from periodic layout changes, for example excluded Classic theme in Window 8, once the definition is done it can be reused by everyone.

What you describe assumes the first step is automatic and generic. Modern OCRs, using very complicated mathematic, have managed to locate and recognize text peaces, blocks and up to some level the layout. Bringing that up to the level of interface elements recognition is a huge step. The problem is that most elements are not distinguishable even for people, for example there is no difference in picture between several lines of text, table with one column and a list box. First selected item in the list box is the same as the header of the table. And so on. People use own experience, intuition and sometimes even the documentation to find that something on the screen is an interactive element. Programs help there changing mouse cursor shape and colors. Still people skip for example links in web page, thinking that is just highlighted static text. Teach computer to be smarter then human is too challenging for me, at least not for one man project during free time.


Reading static images is different. I think better processing of embedded images is more like a future request for existing OCR add-on for NVDA.


Regards,

Alexey.




From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> on behalf of Pranav Lal <pranav.lal@...>
Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2017 5:03 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Working with not accessible interfaces. Thoughts and question.
 

Dear Alexey,

 

If you are referring to a generic solution that would OCR an inaccessible interface, parse it into its constituent elements like list boxes, combo boxes, buttons and allow NVDA to interact with it, then yes, this is something we need. I am not a user of music software therefore cannot comment on that but for arguments sake take a program like google earth. The menus may work but what about grabbing the text on the screen? Similarly, take images imbedded into Microsoft Word documents. I can extract them from a file but cannot read the images in context.

 

In addition, take mind mapping programs such as freemind.

 

Pranav


Re: Significant Area Of Excel Where Ribbons simply Make No Sense and Don't Work

Gene
 

And I'm not discussing this just as a matter of academic interest.  A lot of blind people are afraid of or apprehensive about ribbons.  They may hear so many negative comments about them that they intend never to even try learning and using them.  Will this have consequences for them in some context such as employment or when using Windows 10?  I know there are utilities that restore menus but do you get full functionality when doing so or do you miss features and functions?  I'm not saying you do or you don't.  But I am saying that, when this isn't known, this possibility should be kept in mind and inquired about when deciding whether to use them or to give ribbons a good try. 
 
And as with you, this will be my last post in the thread.
Gene

----- Original Message -----
From: Gene
Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2017 2:25 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Significant Area Of Excel Where Ribbons simply Make No Sense and Don't Work

I'm not responsible for some people's attitudes and neither are ribbons.  If you see that attitude, that's unfortunate but it's not the fault of ribbons. 
 
And I do get the point.  It wasn't working properly because we didn't know a command that we know now.  If there had never been menus, you would have learned ribbons.  What happened in the discussion proves my point.  the problem had nothing to do with ribbons per se.  It was the result of a lack of knowledge.  You may not like ribbons but that isn't the point.  The point is that if the user has the requisite knowledge, they do work.  Some people may have more problems understanding ribbons than menus, others may not.  Some people have a lot of trouble understanding the Window-eyes layout.  Some don't.  Some people prefer the Window-eyes layout.  It's a similar situation with ribbons.  While in general blind people appear to prefer menus, the Window-eyes layout does work whether people like the layout or not.  It's a separate question whether people like ribbons or whether Microsoft should have started using them in increasingly common contexts.  you have been maintaining that they don’t work and you got the item to work once you had the requisite knowledge. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2017 11:16 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Significant Area Of Excel Where Ribbons simply Make No Sense and Don't Work

You miss the point.  I had to have significant help in finding things and finally it was grudgingly admitted that the thing just wasn't acting normally.  I have never had any significant issues with figuring things out myself with old standard menus.  And what bothers me most is that any time somebody tries pointing this out and trying to figure a way not to use ribbons, from some people, we get this what can only be described as an NFB mentality that says that if you can't cut it with ribbons, you're no good, lazy and a disgrace to all the blind race--whatever that is. 



On 2/18/2017 8:52 PM, Gene wrote:
But if no one had told you to use alt down arrow in many combo boxes, you wouldn't have figured that out either.  Which just goes back to my earlier statement.  A lot of problems people have with ribbons is because of inadequate or no instruction.  that isn't the fault of ribbons.  You may argue, of course, that ribbons shouldn't have been introduced and I have no opinion about that.  My point is that a lot of the complaints you hear are the result of poor or no training.  I read about how to use ribbons but I never read about the alt down arrow command.  Evidently, the material I read was inadequate in that respect.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2017 7:38 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Significant Area Of Excel Where Ribbons simply Make No Sense and Don't Work

OK, that worked.  Give me the old fashion pull downs so I can figure this out myself <laugh>!



On 2/18/2017 7:12 PM, Quentin Christensen wrote:
Ron,

Sorry, I wasn't clear in my message - you can't press right arrow on split buttons in the Excel ribbon - the example I gave of the start menu worked differently but what I was thinking when I said it, was that it might be a relatable example.

To access the split button in Excel, press alt+h for the home ribbon, then control+right arrow to get to the section as you did, then alt+down arrow, as yu can to open a drop down list.

Kind regards

Quentin.

On Sun, Feb 19, 2017 at 12:39 AM, Ron Canazzi <aa2vm@...> wrote:

Hi Quentin,


I tried navigating to the insert split button as follows:

alt + H, control + right arrow until I hear insert split button, then right arrow, nothing happens, for laughs and giggles left arrow, nothing happens, enter, space bar, attempted routing of cursors and simulated mouse click with left or right click and nothing.  This is with Office 2016/Excel.



On 2/18/2017 6:14 AM, Quentin Christensen wrote:
Actually,

Thinking on it a bit further, and looking back at the ribbon in Word and Excel, the key word is "split button".  A split button, visually, is a button where you activate the main part of it to do the most common action.  An arrow coming off the right side opens a menu of other related options.  The most common example of a split button is the start menu item for a program such as Word in Windows 7.  When you arrow to Word in the start menu in Windows 7, you can either press ENTER to go into a blank document (or the backstage) in Word.  Alternatively, you can press the right arrow to open a "jump list" of recent documents you have used in Word.

Insert, Delete and Format cells in Excel are setup the same way.  When you press ENTER on the insert button, for me it inserts a cell and pushes the rest down.  If I have multiple cells selected, it inserts multiple cells, pushing either right or down, depending on what was selected.

Merge and Centre, Font Colour, Accounting number format, and sum all do the same thing on the home ribbon in Excel,  They all have an action they perform if you activate them, and a list of related actions you can get to if you alt+down arrow on them.  It might not be obvious, but there you go.

Regards

Quentin.

On Sat, Feb 18, 2017 at 9:46 PM, Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...> wrote:
However playing devils advocate a little here, can one be sure that the original menu version of this worked or did it only work via mouse selection or direct shortcut?
This sounds to me like an issue with the software in that the keyboard action of getting the dialogue or whatever to focus enough to get at the options simply won't work in that case. As such it needs to be sorted by Microsoft if it has Jaws and nvda giving similar results.
Its not that the function is not there, it is, but in an illogical place and seemingly not  selectable from the ribbon route, only by mouse or keyboard shortcuts.
Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Ron Canazzi" <aa2vm@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2017 6:37 AM
Subject: [nvda] Significant Area Of Excel Where Ribbons simply Make No Sense and Don't Work


Hi Group,


I have started a new thread on this ribbon business since some have complained that the other thread had drifted away from the original intent.


Here's one big issue with ribbons and Excel.

If one wants to insert a structural element of a work book such as a row, column area or sheet, one cannot do this by navigating the ribbons.  The short cut which I will describe does work, but this was given to me by someone who figured it out with sighted help.


First of all, try looking for the items under the insert portion of the ribbon.  They simply aren't there.  Then via experimentation and observation, you find a separate insert item under the home portion of the ribbon under general.  There's a problem, if you simply navigate to the insert item, and press either enter or space bar, nothing happens. somehow if you use the shortcut alt + h, I, you do get a list of items. You can then pick the desired item and press enter and follow the prompts or whatever.  If you don't know the designated shortcut sequence, you simply can't find this item and get it to work with screen readers: JAWS or NVDA.


I know I have seen this in other Microsoft programs such as Access and Power Point as well.


I'm sorry folks, using ribbons does not give full access to screen reader users in many programs as we used to have under the standard drop down or pull down menus.


--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"











--
Quentin Christensen
Training Material Developer
Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

www.nvaccess.org 
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 


--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"



--
Quentin Christensen
Training Material Developer
Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

www.nvaccess.org 
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 


--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"

--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


Re: Significant Area Of Excel Where Ribbons simply Make No Sense and Don't Work

Gene
 

I'm not responsible for some people's attitudes and neither are ribbons.  If you see that attitude, that's unfortunate but it's not the fault of ribbons. 
 
And I do get the point.  It wasn't working properly because we didn't know a command that we know now.  If there had never been menus, you would have learned ribbons.  What happened in the discussion proves my point.  the problem had nothing to do with ribbons per se.  It was the result of a lack of knowledge.  You may not like ribbons but that isn't the point.  The point is that if the user has the requisite knowledge, they do work.  Some people may have more problems understanding ribbons than menus, others may not.  Some people have a lot of trouble understanding the Window-eyes layout.  Some don't.  Some people prefer the Window-eyes layout.  It's a similar situation with ribbons.  While in general blind people appear to prefer menus, the Window-eyes layout does work whether people like the layout or not.  It's a separate question whether people like ribbons or whether Microsoft should have started using them in increasingly common contexts.  you have been maintaining that they don’t work and you got the item to work once you had the requisite knowledge. 
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2017 11:16 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Significant Area Of Excel Where Ribbons simply Make No Sense and Don't Work

You miss the point.  I had to have significant help in finding things and finally it was grudgingly admitted that the thing just wasn't acting normally.  I have never had any significant issues with figuring things out myself with old standard menus.  And what bothers me most is that any time somebody tries pointing this out and trying to figure a way not to use ribbons, from some people, we get this what can only be described as an NFB mentality that says that if you can't cut it with ribbons, you're no good, lazy and a disgrace to all the blind race--whatever that is. 



On 2/18/2017 8:52 PM, Gene wrote:
But if no one had told you to use alt down arrow in many combo boxes, you wouldn't have figured that out either.  Which just goes back to my earlier statement.  A lot of problems people have with ribbons is because of inadequate or no instruction.  that isn't the fault of ribbons.  You may argue, of course, that ribbons shouldn't have been introduced and I have no opinion about that.  My point is that a lot of the complaints you hear are the result of poor or no training.  I read about how to use ribbons but I never read about the alt down arrow command.  Evidently, the material I read was inadequate in that respect.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2017 7:38 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Significant Area Of Excel Where Ribbons simply Make No Sense and Don't Work

OK, that worked.  Give me the old fashion pull downs so I can figure this out myself <laugh>!



On 2/18/2017 7:12 PM, Quentin Christensen wrote:
Ron,

Sorry, I wasn't clear in my message - you can't press right arrow on split buttons in the Excel ribbon - the example I gave of the start menu worked differently but what I was thinking when I said it, was that it might be a relatable example.

To access the split button in Excel, press alt+h for the home ribbon, then control+right arrow to get to the section as you did, then alt+down arrow, as yu can to open a drop down list.

Kind regards

Quentin.

On Sun, Feb 19, 2017 at 12:39 AM, Ron Canazzi <aa2vm@...> wrote:

Hi Quentin,


I tried navigating to the insert split button as follows:

alt + H, control + right arrow until I hear insert split button, then right arrow, nothing happens, for laughs and giggles left arrow, nothing happens, enter, space bar, attempted routing of cursors and simulated mouse click with left or right click and nothing.  This is with Office 2016/Excel.



On 2/18/2017 6:14 AM, Quentin Christensen wrote:
Actually,

Thinking on it a bit further, and looking back at the ribbon in Word and Excel, the key word is "split button".  A split button, visually, is a button where you activate the main part of it to do the most common action.  An arrow coming off the right side opens a menu of other related options.  The most common example of a split button is the start menu item for a program such as Word in Windows 7.  When you arrow to Word in the start menu in Windows 7, you can either press ENTER to go into a blank document (or the backstage) in Word.  Alternatively, you can press the right arrow to open a "jump list" of recent documents you have used in Word.

Insert, Delete and Format cells in Excel are setup the same way.  When you press ENTER on the insert button, for me it inserts a cell and pushes the rest down.  If I have multiple cells selected, it inserts multiple cells, pushing either right or down, depending on what was selected.

Merge and Centre, Font Colour, Accounting number format, and sum all do the same thing on the home ribbon in Excel,  They all have an action they perform if you activate them, and a list of related actions you can get to if you alt+down arrow on them.  It might not be obvious, but there you go.

Regards

Quentin.

On Sat, Feb 18, 2017 at 9:46 PM, Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...> wrote:
However playing devils advocate a little here, can one be sure that the original menu version of this worked or did it only work via mouse selection or direct shortcut?
This sounds to me like an issue with the software in that the keyboard action of getting the dialogue or whatever to focus enough to get at the options simply won't work in that case. As such it needs to be sorted by Microsoft if it has Jaws and nvda giving similar results.
Its not that the function is not there, it is, but in an illogical place and seemingly not  selectable from the ribbon route, only by mouse or keyboard shortcuts.
Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Ron Canazzi" <aa2vm@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2017 6:37 AM
Subject: [nvda] Significant Area Of Excel Where Ribbons simply Make No Sense and Don't Work


Hi Group,


I have started a new thread on this ribbon business since some have complained that the other thread had drifted away from the original intent.


Here's one big issue with ribbons and Excel.

If one wants to insert a structural element of a work book such as a row, column area or sheet, one cannot do this by navigating the ribbons.  The short cut which I will describe does work, but this was given to me by someone who figured it out with sighted help.


First of all, try looking for the items under the insert portion of the ribbon.  They simply aren't there.  Then via experimentation and observation, you find a separate insert item under the home portion of the ribbon under general.  There's a problem, if you simply navigate to the insert item, and press either enter or space bar, nothing happens. somehow if you use the shortcut alt + h, I, you do get a list of items. You can then pick the desired item and press enter and follow the prompts or whatever.  If you don't know the designated shortcut sequence, you simply can't find this item and get it to work with screen readers: JAWS or NVDA.


I know I have seen this in other Microsoft programs such as Access and Power Point as well.


I'm sorry folks, using ribbons does not give full access to screen reader users in many programs as we used to have under the standard drop down or pull down menus.


--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"











--
Quentin Christensen
Training Material Developer
Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

www.nvaccess.org 
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 


--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"



--
Quentin Christensen
Training Material Developer
Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

www.nvaccess.org 
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 


--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"

--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


Re: Significant Area Of Excel Where Ribbons simply Make No Sense and Don't Work

slery <slerythema@...>
 

Why don't you use the context menu? I have done it that way since at least excel in 1997 (don't remember the version), might have even been before then and I used a computer as a sighted person back then.

Cindy

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Ron Canazzi
Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2017 1:37 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Significant Area Of Excel Where Ribbons simply Make No Sense and Don't Work

Hi Group,


I have started a new thread on this ribbon business since some have complained that the other thread had drifted away from the original intent.


Here's one big issue with ribbons and Excel.

If one wants to insert a structural element of a work book such as a
row, column area or sheet, one cannot do this by navigating the
ribbons. The short cut which I will describe does work, but this was
given to me by someone who figured it out with sighted help.


First of all, try looking for the items under the insert portion of the
ribbon. They simply aren't there. Then via experimentation and
observation, you find a separate insert item under the home portion of
the ribbon under general. There's a problem, if you simply navigate to
the insert item, and press either enter or space bar, nothing happens.
somehow if you use the shortcut alt + h, I, you do get a list of items.
You can then pick the desired item and press enter and follow the
prompts or whatever. If you don't know the designated shortcut
sequence, you simply can't find this item and get it to work with screen
readers: JAWS or NVDA.


I know I have seen this in other Microsoft programs such as Access and
Power Point as well.


I'm sorry folks, using ribbons does not give full access to screen
reader users in many programs as we used to have under the standard drop
down or pull down menus.


--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


Re: Significant Area Of Excel Where Ribbons simply Make No Sense and Don't Work

Ron Canazzi
 

With the increased complexity of ribbons and the odd behavior that has been described, you are still missing the point. They are a lot harder to figure out and condemning people for having difficulties won't solve the problem.  Better support for such newer items is needed within screen readers and perhaps within the tutorials presented by the software manufacturers for screen readers--especially the ones that charge an arm and a leg for such software.


We could go round and round for weeks concerning this issue, so this is the last thing I will say on the issue.



On 2/18/2017 8:58 PM, Gene wrote:
It doesn't prove that.  You are complaining about split buttons which aren't confined to ribbons.  it is not fair to blame ribbons for split buttons just as it isn't fair for someone who doesn't understand the concept of the default button in dialogs to complain that some buttons don't work properly when enter is used on them.  If you use enter on all buttons, you will get unexpected results at times because of the concept and implementation of default buttons. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2017 7:39 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Significant Area Of Excel Where Ribbons simply Make No Sense and Don't Work

This again proves that in complex menu and listing structures, the ribbons are a bear.



On 2/18/2017 8:20 PM, Quentin Christensen wrote:
Gene,

Down arrow doesn't work in this case, because you can use the arrow keys to navigate around the ribbon.  It's not recommended because the ribbon changes between being anywhere from 1 to three items high with no indication and using the arrows it is easy to miss items.  That is why tab is generally recommended to move between items as it will seamlessly move between all the items, regardless of their layout.

Regards

Quentin.

On Sun, Feb 19, 2017 at 11:30 AM, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
What happens if you just use down arrow?  If right arrow doesn't work on a split button, you should always try down arrow.  If you try down arrow first for some reason and it doesn't work. try right arrow.  I haven't seen alt down arrow given as a command to be used with any split buttons.  Is alt down arrow an expected command for certain ones? 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2017 6:12 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Significant Area Of Excel Where Ribbons simply Make No Sense and Don't Work

Ron,

Sorry, I wasn't clear in my message - you can't press right arrow on split buttons in the Excel ribbon - the example I gave of the start menu worked differently but what I was thinking when I said it, was that it might be a relatable example.

To access the split button in Excel, press alt+h for the home ribbon, then control+right arrow to get to the section as you did, then alt+down arrow, as yu can to open a drop down list.

Kind regards

Quentin.

On Sun, Feb 19, 2017 at 12:39 AM, Ron Canazzi <aa2vm@...> wrote:

Hi Quentin,


I tried navigating to the insert split button as follows:

alt + H, control + right arrow until I hear insert split button, then right arrow, nothing happens, for laughs and giggles left arrow, nothing happens, enter, space bar, attempted routing of cursors and simulated mouse click with left or right click and nothing.  This is with Office 2016/Excel.



On 2/18/2017 6:14 AM, Quentin Christensen wrote:
Actually,

Thinking on it a bit further, and looking back at the ribbon in Word and Excel, the key word is "split button".  A split button, visually, is a button where you activate the main part of it to do the most common action.  An arrow coming off the right side opens a menu of other related options.  The most common example of a split button is the start menu item for a program such as Word in Windows 7.  When you arrow to Word in the start menu in Windows 7, you can either press ENTER to go into a blank document (or the backstage) in Word.  Alternatively, you can press the right arrow to open a "jump list" of recent documents you have used in Word.

Insert, Delete and Format cells in Excel are setup the same way.  When you press ENTER on the insert button, for me it inserts a cell and pushes the rest down.  If I have multiple cells selected, it inserts multiple cells, pushing either right or down, depending on what was selected.

Merge and Centre, Font Colour, Accounting number format, and sum all do the same thing on the home ribbon in Excel,  They all have an action they perform if you activate them, and a list of related actions you can get to if you alt+down arrow on them.  It might not be obvious, but there you go.

Regards

Quentin.

On Sat, Feb 18, 2017 at 9:46 PM, Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...> wrote:
However playing devils advocate a little here, can one be sure that the original menu version of this worked or did it only work via mouse selection or direct shortcut?
This sounds to me like an issue with the software in that the keyboard action of getting the dialogue or whatever to focus enough to get at the options simply won't work in that case. As such it needs to be sorted by Microsoft if it has Jaws and nvda giving similar results.
Its not that the function is not there, it is, but in an illogical place and seemingly not  selectable from the ribbon route, only by mouse or keyboard shortcuts.
Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Ron Canazzi" <aa2vm@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2017 6:37 AM
Subject: [nvda] Significant Area Of Excel Where Ribbons simply Make No Sense and Don't Work


Hi Group,


I have started a new thread on this ribbon business since some have complained that the other thread had drifted away from the original intent.


Here's one big issue with ribbons and Excel.

If one wants to insert a structural element of a work book such as a row, column area or sheet, one cannot do this by navigating the ribbons.  The short cut which I will describe does work, but this was given to me by someone who figured it out with sighted help.


First of all, try looking for the items under the insert portion of the ribbon.  They simply aren't there.  Then via experimentation and observation, you find a separate insert item under the home portion of the ribbon under general.  There's a problem, if you simply navigate to the insert item, and press either enter or space bar, nothing happens. somehow if you use the shortcut alt + h, I, you do get a list of items. You can then pick the desired item and press enter and follow the prompts or whatever.  If you don't know the designated shortcut sequence, you simply can't find this item and get it to work with screen readers: JAWS or NVDA.


I know I have seen this in other Microsoft programs such as Access and Power Point as well.


I'm sorry folks, using ribbons does not give full access to screen reader users in many programs as we used to have under the standard drop down or pull down menus.


--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"











--
Quentin Christensen
Training Material Developer
Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

www.nvaccess.org 
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 


--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"



--
Quentin Christensen
Training Material Developer
Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

www.nvaccess.org 
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 




--
Quentin Christensen
Training Material Developer
Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

www.nvaccess.org 
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 


--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"

--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


Re: Significant Area Of Excel Where Ribbons simply Make No Sense and Don't Work

Ron Canazzi
 

You miss the point.  I had to have significant help in finding things and finally it was grudgingly admitted that the thing just wasn't acting normally.  I have never had any significant issues with figuring things out myself with old standard menus.  And what bothers me most is that any time somebody tries pointing this out and trying to figure a way not to use ribbons, from some people, we get this what can only be described as an NFB mentality that says that if you can't cut it with ribbons, you're no good, lazy and a disgrace to all the blind race--whatever that is. 



On 2/18/2017 8:52 PM, Gene wrote:
But if no one had told you to use alt down arrow in many combo boxes, you wouldn't have figured that out either.  Which just goes back to my earlier statement.  A lot of problems people have with ribbons is because of inadequate or no instruction.  that isn't the fault of ribbons.  You may argue, of course, that ribbons shouldn't have been introduced and I have no opinion about that.  My point is that a lot of the complaints you hear are the result of poor or no training.  I read about how to use ribbons but I never read about the alt down arrow command.  Evidently, the material I read was inadequate in that respect.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2017 7:38 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Significant Area Of Excel Where Ribbons simply Make No Sense and Don't Work

OK, that worked.  Give me the old fashion pull downs so I can figure this out myself <laugh>!



On 2/18/2017 7:12 PM, Quentin Christensen wrote:
Ron,

Sorry, I wasn't clear in my message - you can't press right arrow on split buttons in the Excel ribbon - the example I gave of the start menu worked differently but what I was thinking when I said it, was that it might be a relatable example.

To access the split button in Excel, press alt+h for the home ribbon, then control+right arrow to get to the section as you did, then alt+down arrow, as yu can to open a drop down list.

Kind regards

Quentin.

On Sun, Feb 19, 2017 at 12:39 AM, Ron Canazzi <aa2vm@...> wrote:

Hi Quentin,


I tried navigating to the insert split button as follows:

alt + H, control + right arrow until I hear insert split button, then right arrow, nothing happens, for laughs and giggles left arrow, nothing happens, enter, space bar, attempted routing of cursors and simulated mouse click with left or right click and nothing.  This is with Office 2016/Excel.



On 2/18/2017 6:14 AM, Quentin Christensen wrote:
Actually,

Thinking on it a bit further, and looking back at the ribbon in Word and Excel, the key word is "split button".  A split button, visually, is a button where you activate the main part of it to do the most common action.  An arrow coming off the right side opens a menu of other related options.  The most common example of a split button is the start menu item for a program such as Word in Windows 7.  When you arrow to Word in the start menu in Windows 7, you can either press ENTER to go into a blank document (or the backstage) in Word.  Alternatively, you can press the right arrow to open a "jump list" of recent documents you have used in Word.

Insert, Delete and Format cells in Excel are setup the same way.  When you press ENTER on the insert button, for me it inserts a cell and pushes the rest down.  If I have multiple cells selected, it inserts multiple cells, pushing either right or down, depending on what was selected.

Merge and Centre, Font Colour, Accounting number format, and sum all do the same thing on the home ribbon in Excel,  They all have an action they perform if you activate them, and a list of related actions you can get to if you alt+down arrow on them.  It might not be obvious, but there you go.

Regards

Quentin.

On Sat, Feb 18, 2017 at 9:46 PM, Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...> wrote:
However playing devils advocate a little here, can one be sure that the original menu version of this worked or did it only work via mouse selection or direct shortcut?
This sounds to me like an issue with the software in that the keyboard action of getting the dialogue or whatever to focus enough to get at the options simply won't work in that case. As such it needs to be sorted by Microsoft if it has Jaws and nvda giving similar results.
Its not that the function is not there, it is, but in an illogical place and seemingly not  selectable from the ribbon route, only by mouse or keyboard shortcuts.
Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Ron Canazzi" <aa2vm@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2017 6:37 AM
Subject: [nvda] Significant Area Of Excel Where Ribbons simply Make No Sense and Don't Work


Hi Group,


I have started a new thread on this ribbon business since some have complained that the other thread had drifted away from the original intent.


Here's one big issue with ribbons and Excel.

If one wants to insert a structural element of a work book such as a row, column area or sheet, one cannot do this by navigating the ribbons.  The short cut which I will describe does work, but this was given to me by someone who figured it out with sighted help.


First of all, try looking for the items under the insert portion of the ribbon.  They simply aren't there.  Then via experimentation and observation, you find a separate insert item under the home portion of the ribbon under general.  There's a problem, if you simply navigate to the insert item, and press either enter or space bar, nothing happens. somehow if you use the shortcut alt + h, I, you do get a list of items. You can then pick the desired item and press enter and follow the prompts or whatever.  If you don't know the designated shortcut sequence, you simply can't find this item and get it to work with screen readers: JAWS or NVDA.


I know I have seen this in other Microsoft programs such as Access and Power Point as well.


I'm sorry folks, using ribbons does not give full access to screen reader users in many programs as we used to have under the standard drop down or pull down menus.


--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"











--
Quentin Christensen
Training Material Developer
Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

www.nvaccess.org 
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 


--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"



--
Quentin Christensen
Training Material Developer
Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

www.nvaccess.org 
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 


--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"

--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


Re: Working with not accessible interfaces. Thoughts and question.

Pranav Lal
 

Dear Alexey,

 

If you are referring to a generic solution that would OCR an inaccessible interface, parse it into its constituent elements like list boxes, combo boxes, buttons and allow NVDA to interact with it, then yes, this is something we need. I am not a user of music software therefore cannot comment on that but for arguments sake take a program like google earth. The menus may work but what about grabbing the text on the screen? Similarly, take images imbedded into Microsoft Word documents. I can extract them from a file but cannot read the images in context.

 

In addition, take mind mapping programs such as freemind.

 

Pranav


Re: Significant Area Of Excel Where Ribbons simply Make No Sense and Don't Work

 

I agree some ribbons I can get used to.
Ie the office ribbons after a bit are like little mobiles, but I havn't got used to all the windows ones.
Although in theory I wander if I could just tell cortana to copy and do other opps would it actually say copy all in folder a to folder b replace all files in folder a with folder b and not prompt?

On 19/02/2017 2:38 p.m., Ron Canazzi wrote:
OK, that worked. Give me the old fashion pull downs so I can figure
this out myself <laugh>!



On 2/18/2017 7:12 PM, Quentin Christensen wrote:
Ron,

Sorry, I wasn't clear in my message - you can't press right arrow on
split buttons in the Excel ribbon - the example I gave of the start
menu worked differently but what I was thinking when I said it, was
that it might be a relatable example.

To access the split button in Excel, press alt+h for the home ribbon,
then control+right arrow to get to the section as you did, then
alt+down arrow, as yu can to open a drop down list.

Kind regards

Quentin.

On Sun, Feb 19, 2017 at 12:39 AM, Ron Canazzi <aa2vm@roadrunner.com
<mailto:aa2vm@roadrunner.com>> wrote:

Hi Quentin,


I tried navigating to the insert split button as follows:

alt + H, control + right arrow until I hear insert split button,
then right arrow, nothing happens, for laughs and giggles left
arrow, nothing happens, enter, space bar, attempted routing of
cursors and simulated mouse click with left or right click and
nothing. This is with Office 2016/Excel.



On 2/18/2017 6:14 AM, Quentin Christensen wrote:
Actually,

Thinking on it a bit further, and looking back at the ribbon in
Word and Excel, the key word is "split button". A split button,
visually, is a button where you activate the main part of it to
do the most common action. An arrow coming off the right side
opens a menu of other related options. The most common example
of a split button is the start menu item for a program such as
Word in Windows 7. When you arrow to Word in the start menu in
Windows 7, you can either press ENTER to go into a blank document
(or the backstage) in Word. Alternatively, you can press the
right arrow to open a "jump list" of recent documents you have
used in Word.

Insert, Delete and Format cells in Excel are setup the same way.
When you press ENTER on the insert button, for me it inserts a
cell and pushes the rest down. If I have multiple cells
selected, it inserts multiple cells, pushing either right or
down, depending on what was selected.

Merge and Centre, Font Colour, Accounting number format, and sum
all do the same thing on the home ribbon in Excel, They all have
an action they perform if you activate them, and a list of
related actions you can get to if you alt+down arrow on them. It
might not be obvious, but there you go.

Regards

Quentin.

On Sat, Feb 18, 2017 at 9:46 PM, Brian's Mail list account
<bglists@blueyonder.co.uk <mailto:bglists@blueyonder.co.uk>> wrote:

However playing devils advocate a little here, can one be
sure that the original menu version of this worked or did it
only work via mouse selection or direct shortcut?
This sounds to me like an issue with the software in that the
keyboard action of getting the dialogue or whatever to focus
enough to get at the options simply won't work in that case.
As such it needs to be sorted by Microsoft if it has Jaws and
nvda giving similar results.
Its not that the function is not there, it is, but in an
illogical place and seemingly not selectable from the ribbon
route, only by mouse or keyboard shortcuts.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk <mailto:bglists@blueyonder.co.uk>
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk <mailto:briang1@blueyonder.co.uk>,
putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Ron Canazzi"
<aa2vm@roadrunner.com <mailto:aa2vm@roadrunner.com>>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>>
Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2017 6:37 AM
Subject: [nvda] Significant Area Of Excel Where Ribbons
simply Make No Sense and Don't Work


Hi Group,


I have started a new thread on this ribbon business since
some have complained that the other thread had drifted
away from the original intent.


Here's one big issue with ribbons and Excel.

If one wants to insert a structural element of a work
book such as a row, column area or sheet, one cannot do
this by navigating the ribbons. The short cut which I
will describe does work, but this was given to me by
someone who figured it out with sighted help.


First of all, try looking for the items under the insert
portion of the ribbon. They simply aren't there. Then
via experimentation and observation, you find a separate
insert item under the home portion of the ribbon under
general. There's a problem, if you simply navigate to the
insert item, and press either enter or space bar, nothing
happens. somehow if you use the shortcut alt + h, I, you
do get a list of items. You can then pick the desired
item and press enter and follow the prompts or whatever.
If you don't know the designated shortcut sequence, you
simply can't find this item and get it to work with
screen readers: JAWS or NVDA.


I know I have seen this in other Microsoft programs such
as Access and Power Point as well.


I'm sorry folks, using ribbons does not give full access
to screen reader users in many programs as we used to
have under the standard drop down or pull down menus.


-- They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a
banana boat!"











-- Quentin Christensen
Training Material Developer
Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now
available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/
<http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/>

Ph +61 7 3149 3306 <tel:%2B61%207%203149%203306>
www.nvaccess.org <http://www.nvaccess.org/>
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
<http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess>
Twitter: @NVAccess
--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"




--
Quentin Christensen
Training Material Developer
Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now
available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

Ph +61 7 3149 3306 <tel:%2B61%207%203149%203306>
www.nvaccess.org <http://www.nvaccess.org/>
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
Twitter: @NVAccess