Date   

Re: Significant Area Of Excel Where Ribbons simply Make No Sense and Don't Work

Gene
 

I'm not responsible for some people's attitudes and neither are ribbons.  If you see that attitude, that's unfortunate but it's not the fault of ribbons. 
 
And I do get the point.  It wasn't working properly because we didn't know a command that we know now.  If there had never been menus, you would have learned ribbons.  What happened in the discussion proves my point.  the problem had nothing to do with ribbons per se.  It was the result of a lack of knowledge.  You may not like ribbons but that isn't the point.  The point is that if the user has the requisite knowledge, they do work.  Some people may have more problems understanding ribbons than menus, others may not.  Some people have a lot of trouble understanding the Window-eyes layout.  Some don't.  Some people prefer the Window-eyes layout.  It's a similar situation with ribbons.  While in general blind people appear to prefer menus, the Window-eyes layout does work whether people like the layout or not.  It's a separate question whether people like ribbons or whether Microsoft should have started using them in increasingly common contexts.  you have been maintaining that they don’t work and you got the item to work once you had the requisite knowledge. 
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2017 11:16 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Significant Area Of Excel Where Ribbons simply Make No Sense and Don't Work

You miss the point.  I had to have significant help in finding things and finally it was grudgingly admitted that the thing just wasn't acting normally.  I have never had any significant issues with figuring things out myself with old standard menus.  And what bothers me most is that any time somebody tries pointing this out and trying to figure a way not to use ribbons, from some people, we get this what can only be described as an NFB mentality that says that if you can't cut it with ribbons, you're no good, lazy and a disgrace to all the blind race--whatever that is. 



On 2/18/2017 8:52 PM, Gene wrote:
But if no one had told you to use alt down arrow in many combo boxes, you wouldn't have figured that out either.  Which just goes back to my earlier statement.  A lot of problems people have with ribbons is because of inadequate or no instruction.  that isn't the fault of ribbons.  You may argue, of course, that ribbons shouldn't have been introduced and I have no opinion about that.  My point is that a lot of the complaints you hear are the result of poor or no training.  I read about how to use ribbons but I never read about the alt down arrow command.  Evidently, the material I read was inadequate in that respect.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2017 7:38 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Significant Area Of Excel Where Ribbons simply Make No Sense and Don't Work

OK, that worked.  Give me the old fashion pull downs so I can figure this out myself <laugh>!



On 2/18/2017 7:12 PM, Quentin Christensen wrote:
Ron,

Sorry, I wasn't clear in my message - you can't press right arrow on split buttons in the Excel ribbon - the example I gave of the start menu worked differently but what I was thinking when I said it, was that it might be a relatable example.

To access the split button in Excel, press alt+h for the home ribbon, then control+right arrow to get to the section as you did, then alt+down arrow, as yu can to open a drop down list.

Kind regards

Quentin.

On Sun, Feb 19, 2017 at 12:39 AM, Ron Canazzi <aa2vm@...> wrote:

Hi Quentin,


I tried navigating to the insert split button as follows:

alt + H, control + right arrow until I hear insert split button, then right arrow, nothing happens, for laughs and giggles left arrow, nothing happens, enter, space bar, attempted routing of cursors and simulated mouse click with left or right click and nothing.  This is with Office 2016/Excel.



On 2/18/2017 6:14 AM, Quentin Christensen wrote:
Actually,

Thinking on it a bit further, and looking back at the ribbon in Word and Excel, the key word is "split button".  A split button, visually, is a button where you activate the main part of it to do the most common action.  An arrow coming off the right side opens a menu of other related options.  The most common example of a split button is the start menu item for a program such as Word in Windows 7.  When you arrow to Word in the start menu in Windows 7, you can either press ENTER to go into a blank document (or the backstage) in Word.  Alternatively, you can press the right arrow to open a "jump list" of recent documents you have used in Word.

Insert, Delete and Format cells in Excel are setup the same way.  When you press ENTER on the insert button, for me it inserts a cell and pushes the rest down.  If I have multiple cells selected, it inserts multiple cells, pushing either right or down, depending on what was selected.

Merge and Centre, Font Colour, Accounting number format, and sum all do the same thing on the home ribbon in Excel,  They all have an action they perform if you activate them, and a list of related actions you can get to if you alt+down arrow on them.  It might not be obvious, but there you go.

Regards

Quentin.

On Sat, Feb 18, 2017 at 9:46 PM, Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...> wrote:
However playing devils advocate a little here, can one be sure that the original menu version of this worked or did it only work via mouse selection or direct shortcut?
This sounds to me like an issue with the software in that the keyboard action of getting the dialogue or whatever to focus enough to get at the options simply won't work in that case. As such it needs to be sorted by Microsoft if it has Jaws and nvda giving similar results.
Its not that the function is not there, it is, but in an illogical place and seemingly not  selectable from the ribbon route, only by mouse or keyboard shortcuts.
Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Ron Canazzi" <aa2vm@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2017 6:37 AM
Subject: [nvda] Significant Area Of Excel Where Ribbons simply Make No Sense and Don't Work


Hi Group,


I have started a new thread on this ribbon business since some have complained that the other thread had drifted away from the original intent.


Here's one big issue with ribbons and Excel.

If one wants to insert a structural element of a work book such as a row, column area or sheet, one cannot do this by navigating the ribbons.  The short cut which I will describe does work, but this was given to me by someone who figured it out with sighted help.


First of all, try looking for the items under the insert portion of the ribbon.  They simply aren't there.  Then via experimentation and observation, you find a separate insert item under the home portion of the ribbon under general.  There's a problem, if you simply navigate to the insert item, and press either enter or space bar, nothing happens. somehow if you use the shortcut alt + h, I, you do get a list of items. You can then pick the desired item and press enter and follow the prompts or whatever.  If you don't know the designated shortcut sequence, you simply can't find this item and get it to work with screen readers: JAWS or NVDA.


I know I have seen this in other Microsoft programs such as Access and Power Point as well.


I'm sorry folks, using ribbons does not give full access to screen reader users in many programs as we used to have under the standard drop down or pull down menus.


--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"











--
Quentin Christensen
Training Material Developer
Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

www.nvaccess.org 
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 


--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"



--
Quentin Christensen
Training Material Developer
Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

www.nvaccess.org 
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 


--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"

--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


Re: Significant Area Of Excel Where Ribbons simply Make No Sense and Don't Work

slery <slerythema@...>
 

Why don't you use the context menu? I have done it that way since at least excel in 1997 (don't remember the version), might have even been before then and I used a computer as a sighted person back then.

Cindy

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Ron Canazzi
Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2017 1:37 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Significant Area Of Excel Where Ribbons simply Make No Sense and Don't Work

Hi Group,


I have started a new thread on this ribbon business since some have complained that the other thread had drifted away from the original intent.


Here's one big issue with ribbons and Excel.

If one wants to insert a structural element of a work book such as a
row, column area or sheet, one cannot do this by navigating the
ribbons. The short cut which I will describe does work, but this was
given to me by someone who figured it out with sighted help.


First of all, try looking for the items under the insert portion of the
ribbon. They simply aren't there. Then via experimentation and
observation, you find a separate insert item under the home portion of
the ribbon under general. There's a problem, if you simply navigate to
the insert item, and press either enter or space bar, nothing happens.
somehow if you use the shortcut alt + h, I, you do get a list of items.
You can then pick the desired item and press enter and follow the
prompts or whatever. If you don't know the designated shortcut
sequence, you simply can't find this item and get it to work with screen
readers: JAWS or NVDA.


I know I have seen this in other Microsoft programs such as Access and
Power Point as well.


I'm sorry folks, using ribbons does not give full access to screen
reader users in many programs as we used to have under the standard drop
down or pull down menus.


--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


Re: Significant Area Of Excel Where Ribbons simply Make No Sense and Don't Work

Ron Canazzi
 

With the increased complexity of ribbons and the odd behavior that has been described, you are still missing the point. They are a lot harder to figure out and condemning people for having difficulties won't solve the problem.  Better support for such newer items is needed within screen readers and perhaps within the tutorials presented by the software manufacturers for screen readers--especially the ones that charge an arm and a leg for such software.


We could go round and round for weeks concerning this issue, so this is the last thing I will say on the issue.



On 2/18/2017 8:58 PM, Gene wrote:
It doesn't prove that.  You are complaining about split buttons which aren't confined to ribbons.  it is not fair to blame ribbons for split buttons just as it isn't fair for someone who doesn't understand the concept of the default button in dialogs to complain that some buttons don't work properly when enter is used on them.  If you use enter on all buttons, you will get unexpected results at times because of the concept and implementation of default buttons. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2017 7:39 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Significant Area Of Excel Where Ribbons simply Make No Sense and Don't Work

This again proves that in complex menu and listing structures, the ribbons are a bear.



On 2/18/2017 8:20 PM, Quentin Christensen wrote:
Gene,

Down arrow doesn't work in this case, because you can use the arrow keys to navigate around the ribbon.  It's not recommended because the ribbon changes between being anywhere from 1 to three items high with no indication and using the arrows it is easy to miss items.  That is why tab is generally recommended to move between items as it will seamlessly move between all the items, regardless of their layout.

Regards

Quentin.

On Sun, Feb 19, 2017 at 11:30 AM, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
What happens if you just use down arrow?  If right arrow doesn't work on a split button, you should always try down arrow.  If you try down arrow first for some reason and it doesn't work. try right arrow.  I haven't seen alt down arrow given as a command to be used with any split buttons.  Is alt down arrow an expected command for certain ones? 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2017 6:12 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Significant Area Of Excel Where Ribbons simply Make No Sense and Don't Work

Ron,

Sorry, I wasn't clear in my message - you can't press right arrow on split buttons in the Excel ribbon - the example I gave of the start menu worked differently but what I was thinking when I said it, was that it might be a relatable example.

To access the split button in Excel, press alt+h for the home ribbon, then control+right arrow to get to the section as you did, then alt+down arrow, as yu can to open a drop down list.

Kind regards

Quentin.

On Sun, Feb 19, 2017 at 12:39 AM, Ron Canazzi <aa2vm@...> wrote:

Hi Quentin,


I tried navigating to the insert split button as follows:

alt + H, control + right arrow until I hear insert split button, then right arrow, nothing happens, for laughs and giggles left arrow, nothing happens, enter, space bar, attempted routing of cursors and simulated mouse click with left or right click and nothing.  This is with Office 2016/Excel.



On 2/18/2017 6:14 AM, Quentin Christensen wrote:
Actually,

Thinking on it a bit further, and looking back at the ribbon in Word and Excel, the key word is "split button".  A split button, visually, is a button where you activate the main part of it to do the most common action.  An arrow coming off the right side opens a menu of other related options.  The most common example of a split button is the start menu item for a program such as Word in Windows 7.  When you arrow to Word in the start menu in Windows 7, you can either press ENTER to go into a blank document (or the backstage) in Word.  Alternatively, you can press the right arrow to open a "jump list" of recent documents you have used in Word.

Insert, Delete and Format cells in Excel are setup the same way.  When you press ENTER on the insert button, for me it inserts a cell and pushes the rest down.  If I have multiple cells selected, it inserts multiple cells, pushing either right or down, depending on what was selected.

Merge and Centre, Font Colour, Accounting number format, and sum all do the same thing on the home ribbon in Excel,  They all have an action they perform if you activate them, and a list of related actions you can get to if you alt+down arrow on them.  It might not be obvious, but there you go.

Regards

Quentin.

On Sat, Feb 18, 2017 at 9:46 PM, Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...> wrote:
However playing devils advocate a little here, can one be sure that the original menu version of this worked or did it only work via mouse selection or direct shortcut?
This sounds to me like an issue with the software in that the keyboard action of getting the dialogue or whatever to focus enough to get at the options simply won't work in that case. As such it needs to be sorted by Microsoft if it has Jaws and nvda giving similar results.
Its not that the function is not there, it is, but in an illogical place and seemingly not  selectable from the ribbon route, only by mouse or keyboard shortcuts.
Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Ron Canazzi" <aa2vm@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2017 6:37 AM
Subject: [nvda] Significant Area Of Excel Where Ribbons simply Make No Sense and Don't Work


Hi Group,


I have started a new thread on this ribbon business since some have complained that the other thread had drifted away from the original intent.


Here's one big issue with ribbons and Excel.

If one wants to insert a structural element of a work book such as a row, column area or sheet, one cannot do this by navigating the ribbons.  The short cut which I will describe does work, but this was given to me by someone who figured it out with sighted help.


First of all, try looking for the items under the insert portion of the ribbon.  They simply aren't there.  Then via experimentation and observation, you find a separate insert item under the home portion of the ribbon under general.  There's a problem, if you simply navigate to the insert item, and press either enter or space bar, nothing happens. somehow if you use the shortcut alt + h, I, you do get a list of items. You can then pick the desired item and press enter and follow the prompts or whatever.  If you don't know the designated shortcut sequence, you simply can't find this item and get it to work with screen readers: JAWS or NVDA.


I know I have seen this in other Microsoft programs such as Access and Power Point as well.


I'm sorry folks, using ribbons does not give full access to screen reader users in many programs as we used to have under the standard drop down or pull down menus.


--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"











--
Quentin Christensen
Training Material Developer
Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

www.nvaccess.org 
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 


--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"



--
Quentin Christensen
Training Material Developer
Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

www.nvaccess.org 
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 




--
Quentin Christensen
Training Material Developer
Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

www.nvaccess.org 
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 


--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"

--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


Re: Significant Area Of Excel Where Ribbons simply Make No Sense and Don't Work

Ron Canazzi
 

You miss the point.  I had to have significant help in finding things and finally it was grudgingly admitted that the thing just wasn't acting normally.  I have never had any significant issues with figuring things out myself with old standard menus.  And what bothers me most is that any time somebody tries pointing this out and trying to figure a way not to use ribbons, from some people, we get this what can only be described as an NFB mentality that says that if you can't cut it with ribbons, you're no good, lazy and a disgrace to all the blind race--whatever that is. 



On 2/18/2017 8:52 PM, Gene wrote:
But if no one had told you to use alt down arrow in many combo boxes, you wouldn't have figured that out either.  Which just goes back to my earlier statement.  A lot of problems people have with ribbons is because of inadequate or no instruction.  that isn't the fault of ribbons.  You may argue, of course, that ribbons shouldn't have been introduced and I have no opinion about that.  My point is that a lot of the complaints you hear are the result of poor or no training.  I read about how to use ribbons but I never read about the alt down arrow command.  Evidently, the material I read was inadequate in that respect.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2017 7:38 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Significant Area Of Excel Where Ribbons simply Make No Sense and Don't Work

OK, that worked.  Give me the old fashion pull downs so I can figure this out myself <laugh>!



On 2/18/2017 7:12 PM, Quentin Christensen wrote:
Ron,

Sorry, I wasn't clear in my message - you can't press right arrow on split buttons in the Excel ribbon - the example I gave of the start menu worked differently but what I was thinking when I said it, was that it might be a relatable example.

To access the split button in Excel, press alt+h for the home ribbon, then control+right arrow to get to the section as you did, then alt+down arrow, as yu can to open a drop down list.

Kind regards

Quentin.

On Sun, Feb 19, 2017 at 12:39 AM, Ron Canazzi <aa2vm@...> wrote:

Hi Quentin,


I tried navigating to the insert split button as follows:

alt + H, control + right arrow until I hear insert split button, then right arrow, nothing happens, for laughs and giggles left arrow, nothing happens, enter, space bar, attempted routing of cursors and simulated mouse click with left or right click and nothing.  This is with Office 2016/Excel.



On 2/18/2017 6:14 AM, Quentin Christensen wrote:
Actually,

Thinking on it a bit further, and looking back at the ribbon in Word and Excel, the key word is "split button".  A split button, visually, is a button where you activate the main part of it to do the most common action.  An arrow coming off the right side opens a menu of other related options.  The most common example of a split button is the start menu item for a program such as Word in Windows 7.  When you arrow to Word in the start menu in Windows 7, you can either press ENTER to go into a blank document (or the backstage) in Word.  Alternatively, you can press the right arrow to open a "jump list" of recent documents you have used in Word.

Insert, Delete and Format cells in Excel are setup the same way.  When you press ENTER on the insert button, for me it inserts a cell and pushes the rest down.  If I have multiple cells selected, it inserts multiple cells, pushing either right or down, depending on what was selected.

Merge and Centre, Font Colour, Accounting number format, and sum all do the same thing on the home ribbon in Excel,  They all have an action they perform if you activate them, and a list of related actions you can get to if you alt+down arrow on them.  It might not be obvious, but there you go.

Regards

Quentin.

On Sat, Feb 18, 2017 at 9:46 PM, Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...> wrote:
However playing devils advocate a little here, can one be sure that the original menu version of this worked or did it only work via mouse selection or direct shortcut?
This sounds to me like an issue with the software in that the keyboard action of getting the dialogue or whatever to focus enough to get at the options simply won't work in that case. As such it needs to be sorted by Microsoft if it has Jaws and nvda giving similar results.
Its not that the function is not there, it is, but in an illogical place and seemingly not  selectable from the ribbon route, only by mouse or keyboard shortcuts.
Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Ron Canazzi" <aa2vm@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2017 6:37 AM
Subject: [nvda] Significant Area Of Excel Where Ribbons simply Make No Sense and Don't Work


Hi Group,


I have started a new thread on this ribbon business since some have complained that the other thread had drifted away from the original intent.


Here's one big issue with ribbons and Excel.

If one wants to insert a structural element of a work book such as a row, column area or sheet, one cannot do this by navigating the ribbons.  The short cut which I will describe does work, but this was given to me by someone who figured it out with sighted help.


First of all, try looking for the items under the insert portion of the ribbon.  They simply aren't there.  Then via experimentation and observation, you find a separate insert item under the home portion of the ribbon under general.  There's a problem, if you simply navigate to the insert item, and press either enter or space bar, nothing happens. somehow if you use the shortcut alt + h, I, you do get a list of items. You can then pick the desired item and press enter and follow the prompts or whatever.  If you don't know the designated shortcut sequence, you simply can't find this item and get it to work with screen readers: JAWS or NVDA.


I know I have seen this in other Microsoft programs such as Access and Power Point as well.


I'm sorry folks, using ribbons does not give full access to screen reader users in many programs as we used to have under the standard drop down or pull down menus.


--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"











--
Quentin Christensen
Training Material Developer
Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

www.nvaccess.org 
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 


--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"



--
Quentin Christensen
Training Material Developer
Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

www.nvaccess.org 
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 


--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"

--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


Re: Working with not accessible interfaces. Thoughts and question.

Pranav Lal
 

Dear Alexey,

 

If you are referring to a generic solution that would OCR an inaccessible interface, parse it into its constituent elements like list boxes, combo boxes, buttons and allow NVDA to interact with it, then yes, this is something we need. I am not a user of music software therefore cannot comment on that but for arguments sake take a program like google earth. The menus may work but what about grabbing the text on the screen? Similarly, take images imbedded into Microsoft Word documents. I can extract them from a file but cannot read the images in context.

 

In addition, take mind mapping programs such as freemind.

 

Pranav


Re: Significant Area Of Excel Where Ribbons simply Make No Sense and Don't Work

 

I agree some ribbons I can get used to.
Ie the office ribbons after a bit are like little mobiles, but I havn't got used to all the windows ones.
Although in theory I wander if I could just tell cortana to copy and do other opps would it actually say copy all in folder a to folder b replace all files in folder a with folder b and not prompt?

On 19/02/2017 2:38 p.m., Ron Canazzi wrote:
OK, that worked. Give me the old fashion pull downs so I can figure
this out myself <laugh>!



On 2/18/2017 7:12 PM, Quentin Christensen wrote:
Ron,

Sorry, I wasn't clear in my message - you can't press right arrow on
split buttons in the Excel ribbon - the example I gave of the start
menu worked differently but what I was thinking when I said it, was
that it might be a relatable example.

To access the split button in Excel, press alt+h for the home ribbon,
then control+right arrow to get to the section as you did, then
alt+down arrow, as yu can to open a drop down list.

Kind regards

Quentin.

On Sun, Feb 19, 2017 at 12:39 AM, Ron Canazzi <aa2vm@roadrunner.com
<mailto:aa2vm@roadrunner.com>> wrote:

Hi Quentin,


I tried navigating to the insert split button as follows:

alt + H, control + right arrow until I hear insert split button,
then right arrow, nothing happens, for laughs and giggles left
arrow, nothing happens, enter, space bar, attempted routing of
cursors and simulated mouse click with left or right click and
nothing. This is with Office 2016/Excel.



On 2/18/2017 6:14 AM, Quentin Christensen wrote:
Actually,

Thinking on it a bit further, and looking back at the ribbon in
Word and Excel, the key word is "split button". A split button,
visually, is a button where you activate the main part of it to
do the most common action. An arrow coming off the right side
opens a menu of other related options. The most common example
of a split button is the start menu item for a program such as
Word in Windows 7. When you arrow to Word in the start menu in
Windows 7, you can either press ENTER to go into a blank document
(or the backstage) in Word. Alternatively, you can press the
right arrow to open a "jump list" of recent documents you have
used in Word.

Insert, Delete and Format cells in Excel are setup the same way.
When you press ENTER on the insert button, for me it inserts a
cell and pushes the rest down. If I have multiple cells
selected, it inserts multiple cells, pushing either right or
down, depending on what was selected.

Merge and Centre, Font Colour, Accounting number format, and sum
all do the same thing on the home ribbon in Excel, They all have
an action they perform if you activate them, and a list of
related actions you can get to if you alt+down arrow on them. It
might not be obvious, but there you go.

Regards

Quentin.

On Sat, Feb 18, 2017 at 9:46 PM, Brian's Mail list account
<bglists@blueyonder.co.uk <mailto:bglists@blueyonder.co.uk>> wrote:

However playing devils advocate a little here, can one be
sure that the original menu version of this worked or did it
only work via mouse selection or direct shortcut?
This sounds to me like an issue with the software in that the
keyboard action of getting the dialogue or whatever to focus
enough to get at the options simply won't work in that case.
As such it needs to be sorted by Microsoft if it has Jaws and
nvda giving similar results.
Its not that the function is not there, it is, but in an
illogical place and seemingly not selectable from the ribbon
route, only by mouse or keyboard shortcuts.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk <mailto:bglists@blueyonder.co.uk>
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk <mailto:briang1@blueyonder.co.uk>,
putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Ron Canazzi"
<aa2vm@roadrunner.com <mailto:aa2vm@roadrunner.com>>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>>
Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2017 6:37 AM
Subject: [nvda] Significant Area Of Excel Where Ribbons
simply Make No Sense and Don't Work


Hi Group,


I have started a new thread on this ribbon business since
some have complained that the other thread had drifted
away from the original intent.


Here's one big issue with ribbons and Excel.

If one wants to insert a structural element of a work
book such as a row, column area or sheet, one cannot do
this by navigating the ribbons. The short cut which I
will describe does work, but this was given to me by
someone who figured it out with sighted help.


First of all, try looking for the items under the insert
portion of the ribbon. They simply aren't there. Then
via experimentation and observation, you find a separate
insert item under the home portion of the ribbon under
general. There's a problem, if you simply navigate to the
insert item, and press either enter or space bar, nothing
happens. somehow if you use the shortcut alt + h, I, you
do get a list of items. You can then pick the desired
item and press enter and follow the prompts or whatever.
If you don't know the designated shortcut sequence, you
simply can't find this item and get it to work with
screen readers: JAWS or NVDA.


I know I have seen this in other Microsoft programs such
as Access and Power Point as well.


I'm sorry folks, using ribbons does not give full access
to screen reader users in many programs as we used to
have under the standard drop down or pull down menus.


-- They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a
banana boat!"











-- Quentin Christensen
Training Material Developer
Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now
available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/
<http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/>

Ph +61 7 3149 3306 <tel:%2B61%207%203149%203306>
www.nvaccess.org <http://www.nvaccess.org/>
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
<http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess>
Twitter: @NVAccess
--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"




--
Quentin Christensen
Training Material Developer
Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now
available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

Ph +61 7 3149 3306 <tel:%2B61%207%203149%203306>
www.nvaccess.org <http://www.nvaccess.org/>
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
Twitter: @NVAccess


Re: Significant Area Of Excel Where Ribbons simply Make No Sense and Don't Work

Bill Holton <bill32607@...>
 

Try the old Dash Q tell me a menu. Anything you're looking for, it can find it right away

Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 18, 2017, at 12:51 PM, Ron Canazzi <aa2vm@roadrunner.com> wrote:

The list of things to insert using that context menu does not include insert sheet. It does include column, row and movement of cells. That's interesting. No one ever mentioned that one to me. I see from help screens that you can press shift + F11 to insert a new sheet. My original point wasn't that things can't be done in later versions of Excel, but that in particular, the ribbons are not very easy to use if you want to have total control without sighted help and that in some cases, such as the split button issue I described earlier, they don't work at all.



On 2/18/2017 12:00 PM, Rui Fontes wrote:
Hello!

Why not just press Applications key, choose Insert and select what you want to insert?

Rui


-----Mensagem Original----- De: Quentin Christensen
Data: 18 de fevereiro de 2017 08:21
Para: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Assunto: Re: [nvda] Significant Area Of Excel Where Ribbons simply Make No Sense and Don't Work


Hi Ron,

You are correct, and it is definitely a bug in Office (It works exactly the same with no screen reader running). I have found one workaround, which is when you hear NVDA read "split button", you know the option opens a menu. While enter or space should work, if you press alt+down arrow, it does open the menu.

Re items on the home ribbon, I have always had a bit of a concern with the Home ribbon. After all, items on the other ribbons are more or less logical (there are a few, ok a lot, you could argue, but bear with me) - the Home ribbon, however, is purely what Microsoft THINK people need access to more regularly.

I couldn't understand why half the Word home ribbon was taken up with Styles when Word 2007 came out - after all, a good portion of Word users still likely couldn't tell you what styles are, let alone use them.

Back to inserting rows and columns specifically, and I can give you another way to do that as well:

CONTROL+SHIFT+= (CONTROL, SHIFT and EQUALS) or CONTROL+PLUS.

If you have one or more full rows selected (SHIFT+SPACEBAR btw) when you press this, it will automatically insert one or more rows above the selected rows (same number of rows as you have selected).

If you have one or more full columns selected (CONTROL+SPACEBAR for that one), then it inserts columns.

If you don't have a full row or column selected, it will open a dialog asking whether you want to shift cells right, shift cells down, insert a row or insert a column.

(Note that those are all Excel commands, there is nothing specific to NVDA there.)

Here endeth the lesson :) All this and more will be in the Microsoft Excel with NVDA training module, which will be available later this year.

Regards

Quentin.


On Sat, Feb 18, 2017 at 5:37 PM, Ron Canazzi <aa2vm@roadrunner.com> wrote:
Hi Group,


I have started a new thread on this ribbon business since some have complained that the other thread had drifted away from the original intent.


Here's one big issue with ribbons and Excel.

If one wants to insert a structural element of a work book such as a row, column area or sheet, one cannot do this by navigating the ribbons. The short cut which I will describe does work, but this was given to me by someone who figured it out with sighted help.


First of all, try looking for the items under the insert portion of the ribbon. They simply aren't there. Then via experimentation and observation, you find a separate insert item under the home portion of the ribbon under general. There's a problem, if you simply navigate to the insert item, and press either enter or space bar, nothing happens. somehow if you use the shortcut alt + h, I, you do get a list of items. You can then pick the desired item and press enter and follow the prompts or whatever. If you don't know the designated shortcut sequence, you simply can't find this item and get it to work with screen readers: JAWS or NVDA.


I know I have seen this in other Microsoft programs such as Access and Power Point as well.


I'm sorry folks, using ribbons does not give full access to screen reader users in many programs as we used to have under the standard drop down or pull down menus.

--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"




Re: Significant Area Of Excel Where Ribbons simply Make No Sense and Don't Work

Gene
 

It doesn't prove that.  You are complaining about split buttons which aren't confined to ribbons.  it is not fair to blame ribbons for split buttons just as it isn't fair for someone who doesn't understand the concept of the default button in dialogs to complain that some buttons don't work properly when enter is used on them.  If you use enter on all buttons, you will get unexpected results at times because of the concept and implementation of default buttons. 
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2017 7:39 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Significant Area Of Excel Where Ribbons simply Make No Sense and Don't Work

This again proves that in complex menu and listing structures, the ribbons are a bear.



On 2/18/2017 8:20 PM, Quentin Christensen wrote:
Gene,

Down arrow doesn't work in this case, because you can use the arrow keys to navigate around the ribbon.  It's not recommended because the ribbon changes between being anywhere from 1 to three items high with no indication and using the arrows it is easy to miss items.  That is why tab is generally recommended to move between items as it will seamlessly move between all the items, regardless of their layout.

Regards

Quentin.

On Sun, Feb 19, 2017 at 11:30 AM, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
What happens if you just use down arrow?  If right arrow doesn't work on a split button, you should always try down arrow.  If you try down arrow first for some reason and it doesn't work. try right arrow.  I haven't seen alt down arrow given as a command to be used with any split buttons.  Is alt down arrow an expected command for certain ones? 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2017 6:12 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Significant Area Of Excel Where Ribbons simply Make No Sense and Don't Work

Ron,

Sorry, I wasn't clear in my message - you can't press right arrow on split buttons in the Excel ribbon - the example I gave of the start menu worked differently but what I was thinking when I said it, was that it might be a relatable example.

To access the split button in Excel, press alt+h for the home ribbon, then control+right arrow to get to the section as you did, then alt+down arrow, as yu can to open a drop down list.

Kind regards

Quentin.

On Sun, Feb 19, 2017 at 12:39 AM, Ron Canazzi <aa2vm@...> wrote:

Hi Quentin,


I tried navigating to the insert split button as follows:

alt + H, control + right arrow until I hear insert split button, then right arrow, nothing happens, for laughs and giggles left arrow, nothing happens, enter, space bar, attempted routing of cursors and simulated mouse click with left or right click and nothing.  This is with Office 2016/Excel.



On 2/18/2017 6:14 AM, Quentin Christensen wrote:
Actually,

Thinking on it a bit further, and looking back at the ribbon in Word and Excel, the key word is "split button".  A split button, visually, is a button where you activate the main part of it to do the most common action.  An arrow coming off the right side opens a menu of other related options.  The most common example of a split button is the start menu item for a program such as Word in Windows 7.  When you arrow to Word in the start menu in Windows 7, you can either press ENTER to go into a blank document (or the backstage) in Word.  Alternatively, you can press the right arrow to open a "jump list" of recent documents you have used in Word.

Insert, Delete and Format cells in Excel are setup the same way.  When you press ENTER on the insert button, for me it inserts a cell and pushes the rest down.  If I have multiple cells selected, it inserts multiple cells, pushing either right or down, depending on what was selected.

Merge and Centre, Font Colour, Accounting number format, and sum all do the same thing on the home ribbon in Excel,  They all have an action they perform if you activate them, and a list of related actions you can get to if you alt+down arrow on them.  It might not be obvious, but there you go.

Regards

Quentin.

On Sat, Feb 18, 2017 at 9:46 PM, Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...> wrote:
However playing devils advocate a little here, can one be sure that the original menu version of this worked or did it only work via mouse selection or direct shortcut?
This sounds to me like an issue with the software in that the keyboard action of getting the dialogue or whatever to focus enough to get at the options simply won't work in that case. As such it needs to be sorted by Microsoft if it has Jaws and nvda giving similar results.
Its not that the function is not there, it is, but in an illogical place and seemingly not  selectable from the ribbon route, only by mouse or keyboard shortcuts.
Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Ron Canazzi" <aa2vm@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2017 6:37 AM
Subject: [nvda] Significant Area Of Excel Where Ribbons simply Make No Sense and Don't Work


Hi Group,


I have started a new thread on this ribbon business since some have complained that the other thread had drifted away from the original intent.


Here's one big issue with ribbons and Excel.

If one wants to insert a structural element of a work book such as a row, column area or sheet, one cannot do this by navigating the ribbons.  The short cut which I will describe does work, but this was given to me by someone who figured it out with sighted help.


First of all, try looking for the items under the insert portion of the ribbon.  They simply aren't there.  Then via experimentation and observation, you find a separate insert item under the home portion of the ribbon under general.  There's a problem, if you simply navigate to the insert item, and press either enter or space bar, nothing happens. somehow if you use the shortcut alt + h, I, you do get a list of items. You can then pick the desired item and press enter and follow the prompts or whatever.  If you don't know the designated shortcut sequence, you simply can't find this item and get it to work with screen readers: JAWS or NVDA.


I know I have seen this in other Microsoft programs such as Access and Power Point as well.


I'm sorry folks, using ribbons does not give full access to screen reader users in many programs as we used to have under the standard drop down or pull down menus.


--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"











--
Quentin Christensen
Training Material Developer
Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

www.nvaccess.org 
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 


--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"



--
Quentin Christensen
Training Material Developer
Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

www.nvaccess.org 
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 




--
Quentin Christensen
Training Material Developer
Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

www.nvaccess.org 
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 


--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


Re: Significant Area Of Excel Where Ribbons simply Make No Sense and Don't Work

Gene
 

But if no one had told you to use alt down arrow in many combo boxes, you wouldn't have figured that out either.  Which just goes back to my earlier statement.  A lot of problems people have with ribbons is because of inadequate or no instruction.  that isn't the fault of ribbons.  You may argue, of course, that ribbons shouldn't have been introduced and I have no opinion about that.  My point is that a lot of the complaints you hear are the result of poor or no training.  I read about how to use ribbons but I never read about the alt down arrow command.  Evidently, the material I read was inadequate in that respect.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2017 7:38 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Significant Area Of Excel Where Ribbons simply Make No Sense and Don't Work

OK, that worked.  Give me the old fashion pull downs so I can figure this out myself <laugh>!



On 2/18/2017 7:12 PM, Quentin Christensen wrote:
Ron,

Sorry, I wasn't clear in my message - you can't press right arrow on split buttons in the Excel ribbon - the example I gave of the start menu worked differently but what I was thinking when I said it, was that it might be a relatable example.

To access the split button in Excel, press alt+h for the home ribbon, then control+right arrow to get to the section as you did, then alt+down arrow, as yu can to open a drop down list.

Kind regards

Quentin.

On Sun, Feb 19, 2017 at 12:39 AM, Ron Canazzi <aa2vm@...> wrote:

Hi Quentin,


I tried navigating to the insert split button as follows:

alt + H, control + right arrow until I hear insert split button, then right arrow, nothing happens, for laughs and giggles left arrow, nothing happens, enter, space bar, attempted routing of cursors and simulated mouse click with left or right click and nothing.  This is with Office 2016/Excel.



On 2/18/2017 6:14 AM, Quentin Christensen wrote:
Actually,

Thinking on it a bit further, and looking back at the ribbon in Word and Excel, the key word is "split button".  A split button, visually, is a button where you activate the main part of it to do the most common action.  An arrow coming off the right side opens a menu of other related options.  The most common example of a split button is the start menu item for a program such as Word in Windows 7.  When you arrow to Word in the start menu in Windows 7, you can either press ENTER to go into a blank document (or the backstage) in Word.  Alternatively, you can press the right arrow to open a "jump list" of recent documents you have used in Word.

Insert, Delete and Format cells in Excel are setup the same way.  When you press ENTER on the insert button, for me it inserts a cell and pushes the rest down.  If I have multiple cells selected, it inserts multiple cells, pushing either right or down, depending on what was selected.

Merge and Centre, Font Colour, Accounting number format, and sum all do the same thing on the home ribbon in Excel,  They all have an action they perform if you activate them, and a list of related actions you can get to if you alt+down arrow on them.  It might not be obvious, but there you go.

Regards

Quentin.

On Sat, Feb 18, 2017 at 9:46 PM, Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...> wrote:
However playing devils advocate a little here, can one be sure that the original menu version of this worked or did it only work via mouse selection or direct shortcut?
This sounds to me like an issue with the software in that the keyboard action of getting the dialogue or whatever to focus enough to get at the options simply won't work in that case. As such it needs to be sorted by Microsoft if it has Jaws and nvda giving similar results.
Its not that the function is not there, it is, but in an illogical place and seemingly not  selectable from the ribbon route, only by mouse or keyboard shortcuts.
Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Ron Canazzi" <aa2vm@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2017 6:37 AM
Subject: [nvda] Significant Area Of Excel Where Ribbons simply Make No Sense and Don't Work


Hi Group,


I have started a new thread on this ribbon business since some have complained that the other thread had drifted away from the original intent.


Here's one big issue with ribbons and Excel.

If one wants to insert a structural element of a work book such as a row, column area or sheet, one cannot do this by navigating the ribbons.  The short cut which I will describe does work, but this was given to me by someone who figured it out with sighted help.


First of all, try looking for the items under the insert portion of the ribbon.  They simply aren't there.  Then via experimentation and observation, you find a separate insert item under the home portion of the ribbon under general.  There's a problem, if you simply navigate to the insert item, and press either enter or space bar, nothing happens. somehow if you use the shortcut alt + h, I, you do get a list of items. You can then pick the desired item and press enter and follow the prompts or whatever.  If you don't know the designated shortcut sequence, you simply can't find this item and get it to work with screen readers: JAWS or NVDA.


I know I have seen this in other Microsoft programs such as Access and Power Point as well.


I'm sorry folks, using ribbons does not give full access to screen reader users in many programs as we used to have under the standard drop down or pull down menus.


--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"











--
Quentin Christensen
Training Material Developer
Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

www.nvaccess.org 
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 


--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"



--
Quentin Christensen
Training Material Developer
Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

www.nvaccess.org 
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 


--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


Re: Significant Area Of Excel Where Ribbons simply Make No Sense and Don't Work

Gene
 

I know you should tab and shift tab to move through ribbons.  But I was puzzled that neither right nor down arrow worked on the split button.  Evidently, there are some split buttons where alt down arrow needs to be used.  I haven't seen that command discussed before. 
 
The way I explain movement to open a split button is that it depends on the structure you are in.  In a menu, which moves down the screen, you right arrow on the split button.  In a tool bar that moves across the screen, you down arrow to open the split button.  If a split button is directly in a ribbon, I'm not sure what you do.  Is that where you use alt down arrow?
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2017 7:20 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Significant Area Of Excel Where Ribbons simply Make No Sense and Don't Work

Gene,

Down arrow doesn't work in this case, because you can use the arrow keys to navigate around the ribbon.  It's not recommended because the ribbon changes between being anywhere from 1 to three items high with no indication and using the arrows it is easy to miss items.  That is why tab is generally recommended to move between items as it will seamlessly move between all the items, regardless of their layout.

Regards

Quentin.

On Sun, Feb 19, 2017 at 11:30 AM, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
What happens if you just use down arrow?  If right arrow doesn't work on a split button, you should always try down arrow.  If you try down arrow first for some reason and it doesn't work. try right arrow.  I haven't seen alt down arrow given as a command to be used with any split buttons.  Is alt down arrow an expected command for certain ones? 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2017 6:12 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Significant Area Of Excel Where Ribbons simply Make No Sense and Don't Work

Ron,

Sorry, I wasn't clear in my message - you can't press right arrow on split buttons in the Excel ribbon - the example I gave of the start menu worked differently but what I was thinking when I said it, was that it might be a relatable example.

To access the split button in Excel, press alt+h for the home ribbon, then control+right arrow to get to the section as you did, then alt+down arrow, as yu can to open a drop down list.

Kind regards

Quentin.

On Sun, Feb 19, 2017 at 12:39 AM, Ron Canazzi <aa2vm@...> wrote:

Hi Quentin,


I tried navigating to the insert split button as follows:

alt + H, control + right arrow until I hear insert split button, then right arrow, nothing happens, for laughs and giggles left arrow, nothing happens, enter, space bar, attempted routing of cursors and simulated mouse click with left or right click and nothing.  This is with Office 2016/Excel.



On 2/18/2017 6:14 AM, Quentin Christensen wrote:
Actually,

Thinking on it a bit further, and looking back at the ribbon in Word and Excel, the key word is "split button".  A split button, visually, is a button where you activate the main part of it to do the most common action.  An arrow coming off the right side opens a menu of other related options.  The most common example of a split button is the start menu item for a program such as Word in Windows 7.  When you arrow to Word in the start menu in Windows 7, you can either press ENTER to go into a blank document (or the backstage) in Word.  Alternatively, you can press the right arrow to open a "jump list" of recent documents you have used in Word.

Insert, Delete and Format cells in Excel are setup the same way.  When you press ENTER on the insert button, for me it inserts a cell and pushes the rest down.  If I have multiple cells selected, it inserts multiple cells, pushing either right or down, depending on what was selected.

Merge and Centre, Font Colour, Accounting number format, and sum all do the same thing on the home ribbon in Excel,  They all have an action they perform if you activate them, and a list of related actions you can get to if you alt+down arrow on them.  It might not be obvious, but there you go.

Regards

Quentin.

On Sat, Feb 18, 2017 at 9:46 PM, Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...> wrote:
However playing devils advocate a little here, can one be sure that the original menu version of this worked or did it only work via mouse selection or direct shortcut?
This sounds to me like an issue with the software in that the keyboard action of getting the dialogue or whatever to focus enough to get at the options simply won't work in that case. As such it needs to be sorted by Microsoft if it has Jaws and nvda giving similar results.
Its not that the function is not there, it is, but in an illogical place and seemingly not  selectable from the ribbon route, only by mouse or keyboard shortcuts.
Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Ron Canazzi" <aa2vm@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2017 6:37 AM
Subject: [nvda] Significant Area Of Excel Where Ribbons simply Make No Sense and Don't Work


Hi Group,


I have started a new thread on this ribbon business since some have complained that the other thread had drifted away from the original intent.


Here's one big issue with ribbons and Excel.

If one wants to insert a structural element of a work book such as a row, column area or sheet, one cannot do this by navigating the ribbons.  The short cut which I will describe does work, but this was given to me by someone who figured it out with sighted help.


First of all, try looking for the items under the insert portion of the ribbon.  They simply aren't there.  Then via experimentation and observation, you find a separate insert item under the home portion of the ribbon under general.  There's a problem, if you simply navigate to the insert item, and press either enter or space bar, nothing happens. somehow if you use the shortcut alt + h, I, you do get a list of items. You can then pick the desired item and press enter and follow the prompts or whatever.  If you don't know the designated shortcut sequence, you simply can't find this item and get it to work with screen readers: JAWS or NVDA.


I know I have seen this in other Microsoft programs such as Access and Power Point as well.


I'm sorry folks, using ribbons does not give full access to screen reader users in many programs as we used to have under the standard drop down or pull down menus.


--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"











--
Quentin Christensen
Training Material Developer
Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

www.nvaccess.org 
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 


--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"




--
Quentin Christensen
Training Material Developer
Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

www.nvaccess.org 
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 




--
Quentin Christensen
Training Material Developer
Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

www.nvaccess.org 
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 


Re: Significant Area Of Excel Where Ribbons simply Make No Sense and Don't Work

Ron Canazzi
 

This again proves that in complex menu and listing structures, the ribbons are a bear.



On 2/18/2017 8:20 PM, Quentin Christensen wrote:
Gene,

Down arrow doesn't work in this case, because you can use the arrow keys to navigate around the ribbon.  It's not recommended because the ribbon changes between being anywhere from 1 to three items high with no indication and using the arrows it is easy to miss items.  That is why tab is generally recommended to move between items as it will seamlessly move between all the items, regardless of their layout.

Regards

Quentin.

On Sun, Feb 19, 2017 at 11:30 AM, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
What happens if you just use down arrow?  If right arrow doesn't work on a split button, you should always try down arrow.  If you try down arrow first for some reason and it doesn't work. try right arrow.  I haven't seen alt down arrow given as a command to be used with any split buttons.  Is alt down arrow an expected command for certain ones? 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2017 6:12 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Significant Area Of Excel Where Ribbons simply Make No Sense and Don't Work

Ron,

Sorry, I wasn't clear in my message - you can't press right arrow on split buttons in the Excel ribbon - the example I gave of the start menu worked differently but what I was thinking when I said it, was that it might be a relatable example.

To access the split button in Excel, press alt+h for the home ribbon, then control+right arrow to get to the section as you did, then alt+down arrow, as yu can to open a drop down list.

Kind regards

Quentin.

On Sun, Feb 19, 2017 at 12:39 AM, Ron Canazzi <aa2vm@...> wrote:

Hi Quentin,


I tried navigating to the insert split button as follows:

alt + H, control + right arrow until I hear insert split button, then right arrow, nothing happens, for laughs and giggles left arrow, nothing happens, enter, space bar, attempted routing of cursors and simulated mouse click with left or right click and nothing.  This is with Office 2016/Excel.



On 2/18/2017 6:14 AM, Quentin Christensen wrote:
Actually,

Thinking on it a bit further, and looking back at the ribbon in Word and Excel, the key word is "split button".  A split button, visually, is a button where you activate the main part of it to do the most common action.  An arrow coming off the right side opens a menu of other related options.  The most common example of a split button is the start menu item for a program such as Word in Windows 7.  When you arrow to Word in the start menu in Windows 7, you can either press ENTER to go into a blank document (or the backstage) in Word.  Alternatively, you can press the right arrow to open a "jump list" of recent documents you have used in Word.

Insert, Delete and Format cells in Excel are setup the same way.  When you press ENTER on the insert button, for me it inserts a cell and pushes the rest down.  If I have multiple cells selected, it inserts multiple cells, pushing either right or down, depending on what was selected.

Merge and Centre, Font Colour, Accounting number format, and sum all do the same thing on the home ribbon in Excel,  They all have an action they perform if you activate them, and a list of related actions you can get to if you alt+down arrow on them.  It might not be obvious, but there you go.

Regards

Quentin.

On Sat, Feb 18, 2017 at 9:46 PM, Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...> wrote:
However playing devils advocate a little here, can one be sure that the original menu version of this worked or did it only work via mouse selection or direct shortcut?
This sounds to me like an issue with the software in that the keyboard action of getting the dialogue or whatever to focus enough to get at the options simply won't work in that case. As such it needs to be sorted by Microsoft if it has Jaws and nvda giving similar results.
Its not that the function is not there, it is, but in an illogical place and seemingly not  selectable from the ribbon route, only by mouse or keyboard shortcuts.
Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Ron Canazzi" <aa2vm@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2017 6:37 AM
Subject: [nvda] Significant Area Of Excel Where Ribbons simply Make No Sense and Don't Work


Hi Group,


I have started a new thread on this ribbon business since some have complained that the other thread had drifted away from the original intent.


Here's one big issue with ribbons and Excel.

If one wants to insert a structural element of a work book such as a row, column area or sheet, one cannot do this by navigating the ribbons.  The short cut which I will describe does work, but this was given to me by someone who figured it out with sighted help.


First of all, try looking for the items under the insert portion of the ribbon.  They simply aren't there.  Then via experimentation and observation, you find a separate insert item under the home portion of the ribbon under general.  There's a problem, if you simply navigate to the insert item, and press either enter or space bar, nothing happens. somehow if you use the shortcut alt + h, I, you do get a list of items. You can then pick the desired item and press enter and follow the prompts or whatever.  If you don't know the designated shortcut sequence, you simply can't find this item and get it to work with screen readers: JAWS or NVDA.


I know I have seen this in other Microsoft programs such as Access and Power Point as well.


I'm sorry folks, using ribbons does not give full access to screen reader users in many programs as we used to have under the standard drop down or pull down menus.


--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"











--
Quentin Christensen
Training Material Developer
Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

www.nvaccess.org 
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 


--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"



--
Quentin Christensen
Training Material Developer
Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

www.nvaccess.org 
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 




--
Quentin Christensen
Training Material Developer
Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

www.nvaccess.org 
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 


--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


Re: Significant Area Of Excel Where Ribbons simply Make No Sense and Don't Work

Ron Canazzi
 

OK, that worked.  Give me the old fashion pull downs so I can figure this out myself <laugh>!



On 2/18/2017 7:12 PM, Quentin Christensen wrote:
Ron,

Sorry, I wasn't clear in my message - you can't press right arrow on split buttons in the Excel ribbon - the example I gave of the start menu worked differently but what I was thinking when I said it, was that it might be a relatable example.

To access the split button in Excel, press alt+h for the home ribbon, then control+right arrow to get to the section as you did, then alt+down arrow, as yu can to open a drop down list.

Kind regards

Quentin.

On Sun, Feb 19, 2017 at 12:39 AM, Ron Canazzi <aa2vm@...> wrote:

Hi Quentin,


I tried navigating to the insert split button as follows:

alt + H, control + right arrow until I hear insert split button, then right arrow, nothing happens, for laughs and giggles left arrow, nothing happens, enter, space bar, attempted routing of cursors and simulated mouse click with left or right click and nothing.  This is with Office 2016/Excel.



On 2/18/2017 6:14 AM, Quentin Christensen wrote:
Actually,

Thinking on it a bit further, and looking back at the ribbon in Word and Excel, the key word is "split button".  A split button, visually, is a button where you activate the main part of it to do the most common action.  An arrow coming off the right side opens a menu of other related options.  The most common example of a split button is the start menu item for a program such as Word in Windows 7.  When you arrow to Word in the start menu in Windows 7, you can either press ENTER to go into a blank document (or the backstage) in Word.  Alternatively, you can press the right arrow to open a "jump list" of recent documents you have used in Word.

Insert, Delete and Format cells in Excel are setup the same way.  When you press ENTER on the insert button, for me it inserts a cell and pushes the rest down.  If I have multiple cells selected, it inserts multiple cells, pushing either right or down, depending on what was selected.

Merge and Centre, Font Colour, Accounting number format, and sum all do the same thing on the home ribbon in Excel,  They all have an action they perform if you activate them, and a list of related actions you can get to if you alt+down arrow on them.  It might not be obvious, but there you go.

Regards

Quentin.

On Sat, Feb 18, 2017 at 9:46 PM, Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...> wrote:
However playing devils advocate a little here, can one be sure that the original menu version of this worked or did it only work via mouse selection or direct shortcut?
This sounds to me like an issue with the software in that the keyboard action of getting the dialogue or whatever to focus enough to get at the options simply won't work in that case. As such it needs to be sorted by Microsoft if it has Jaws and nvda giving similar results.
Its not that the function is not there, it is, but in an illogical place and seemingly not  selectable from the ribbon route, only by mouse or keyboard shortcuts.
Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Ron Canazzi" <aa2vm@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2017 6:37 AM
Subject: [nvda] Significant Area Of Excel Where Ribbons simply Make No Sense and Don't Work


Hi Group,


I have started a new thread on this ribbon business since some have complained that the other thread had drifted away from the original intent.


Here's one big issue with ribbons and Excel.

If one wants to insert a structural element of a work book such as a row, column area or sheet, one cannot do this by navigating the ribbons.  The short cut which I will describe does work, but this was given to me by someone who figured it out with sighted help.


First of all, try looking for the items under the insert portion of the ribbon.  They simply aren't there.  Then via experimentation and observation, you find a separate insert item under the home portion of the ribbon under general.  There's a problem, if you simply navigate to the insert item, and press either enter or space bar, nothing happens. somehow if you use the shortcut alt + h, I, you do get a list of items. You can then pick the desired item and press enter and follow the prompts or whatever.  If you don't know the designated shortcut sequence, you simply can't find this item and get it to work with screen readers: JAWS or NVDA.


I know I have seen this in other Microsoft programs such as Access and Power Point as well.


I'm sorry folks, using ribbons does not give full access to screen reader users in many programs as we used to have under the standard drop down or pull down menus.


--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"











--
Quentin Christensen
Training Material Developer
Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

www.nvaccess.org 
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 


--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"



--
Quentin Christensen
Training Material Developer
Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

www.nvaccess.org 
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 


--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


Re: Significant Area Of Excel Where Ribbons simply Make No Sense and Don't Work

Quentin Christensen
 

Gene,

Down arrow doesn't work in this case, because you can use the arrow keys to navigate around the ribbon.  It's not recommended because the ribbon changes between being anywhere from 1 to three items high with no indication and using the arrows it is easy to miss items.  That is why tab is generally recommended to move between items as it will seamlessly move between all the items, regardless of their layout.

Regards

Quentin.

On Sun, Feb 19, 2017 at 11:30 AM, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
What happens if you just use down arrow?  If right arrow doesn't work on a split button, you should always try down arrow.  If you try down arrow first for some reason and it doesn't work. try right arrow.  I haven't seen alt down arrow given as a command to be used with any split buttons.  Is alt down arrow an expected command for certain ones? 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2017 6:12 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Significant Area Of Excel Where Ribbons simply Make No Sense and Don't Work

Ron,

Sorry, I wasn't clear in my message - you can't press right arrow on split buttons in the Excel ribbon - the example I gave of the start menu worked differently but what I was thinking when I said it, was that it might be a relatable example.

To access the split button in Excel, press alt+h for the home ribbon, then control+right arrow to get to the section as you did, then alt+down arrow, as yu can to open a drop down list.

Kind regards

Quentin.

On Sun, Feb 19, 2017 at 12:39 AM, Ron Canazzi <aa2vm@...> wrote:

Hi Quentin,


I tried navigating to the insert split button as follows:

alt + H, control + right arrow until I hear insert split button, then right arrow, nothing happens, for laughs and giggles left arrow, nothing happens, enter, space bar, attempted routing of cursors and simulated mouse click with left or right click and nothing.  This is with Office 2016/Excel.



On 2/18/2017 6:14 AM, Quentin Christensen wrote:
Actually,

Thinking on it a bit further, and looking back at the ribbon in Word and Excel, the key word is "split button".  A split button, visually, is a button where you activate the main part of it to do the most common action.  An arrow coming off the right side opens a menu of other related options.  The most common example of a split button is the start menu item for a program such as Word in Windows 7.  When you arrow to Word in the start menu in Windows 7, you can either press ENTER to go into a blank document (or the backstage) in Word.  Alternatively, you can press the right arrow to open a "jump list" of recent documents you have used in Word.

Insert, Delete and Format cells in Excel are setup the same way.  When you press ENTER on the insert button, for me it inserts a cell and pushes the rest down.  If I have multiple cells selected, it inserts multiple cells, pushing either right or down, depending on what was selected.

Merge and Centre, Font Colour, Accounting number format, and sum all do the same thing on the home ribbon in Excel,  They all have an action they perform if you activate them, and a list of related actions you can get to if you alt+down arrow on them.  It might not be obvious, but there you go.

Regards

Quentin.

On Sat, Feb 18, 2017 at 9:46 PM, Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...> wrote:
However playing devils advocate a little here, can one be sure that the original menu version of this worked or did it only work via mouse selection or direct shortcut?
This sounds to me like an issue with the software in that the keyboard action of getting the dialogue or whatever to focus enough to get at the options simply won't work in that case. As such it needs to be sorted by Microsoft if it has Jaws and nvda giving similar results.
Its not that the function is not there, it is, but in an illogical place and seemingly not  selectable from the ribbon route, only by mouse or keyboard shortcuts.
Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Ron Canazzi" <aa2vm@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2017 6:37 AM
Subject: [nvda] Significant Area Of Excel Where Ribbons simply Make No Sense and Don't Work


Hi Group,


I have started a new thread on this ribbon business since some have complained that the other thread had drifted away from the original intent.


Here's one big issue with ribbons and Excel.

If one wants to insert a structural element of a work book such as a row, column area or sheet, one cannot do this by navigating the ribbons.  The short cut which I will describe does work, but this was given to me by someone who figured it out with sighted help.


First of all, try looking for the items under the insert portion of the ribbon.  They simply aren't there.  Then via experimentation and observation, you find a separate insert item under the home portion of the ribbon under general.  There's a problem, if you simply navigate to the insert item, and press either enter or space bar, nothing happens. somehow if you use the shortcut alt + h, I, you do get a list of items. You can then pick the desired item and press enter and follow the prompts or whatever.  If you don't know the designated shortcut sequence, you simply can't find this item and get it to work with screen readers: JAWS or NVDA.


I know I have seen this in other Microsoft programs such as Access and Power Point as well.


I'm sorry folks, using ribbons does not give full access to screen reader users in many programs as we used to have under the standard drop down or pull down menus.


--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"











--
Quentin Christensen
Training Material Developer
Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

www.nvaccess.org 
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 


--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"




--
Quentin Christensen
Training Material Developer
Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

www.nvaccess.org 
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 




--
Quentin Christensen
Training Material Developer
Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

www.nvaccess.org 
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 


Re: Significant Area Of Excel Where Ribbons simply Make No Sense and Don't Work

Gene
 

What happens if you just use down arrow?  If right arrow doesn't work on a split button, you should always try down arrow.  If you try down arrow first for some reason and it doesn't work. try right arrow.  I haven't seen alt down arrow given as a command to be used with any split buttons.  Is alt down arrow an expected command for certain ones? 
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2017 6:12 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Significant Area Of Excel Where Ribbons simply Make No Sense and Don't Work

Ron,

Sorry, I wasn't clear in my message - you can't press right arrow on split buttons in the Excel ribbon - the example I gave of the start menu worked differently but what I was thinking when I said it, was that it might be a relatable example.

To access the split button in Excel, press alt+h for the home ribbon, then control+right arrow to get to the section as you did, then alt+down arrow, as yu can to open a drop down list.

Kind regards

Quentin.

On Sun, Feb 19, 2017 at 12:39 AM, Ron Canazzi <aa2vm@...> wrote:

Hi Quentin,


I tried navigating to the insert split button as follows:

alt + H, control + right arrow until I hear insert split button, then right arrow, nothing happens, for laughs and giggles left arrow, nothing happens, enter, space bar, attempted routing of cursors and simulated mouse click with left or right click and nothing.  This is with Office 2016/Excel.



On 2/18/2017 6:14 AM, Quentin Christensen wrote:
Actually,

Thinking on it a bit further, and looking back at the ribbon in Word and Excel, the key word is "split button".  A split button, visually, is a button where you activate the main part of it to do the most common action.  An arrow coming off the right side opens a menu of other related options.  The most common example of a split button is the start menu item for a program such as Word in Windows 7.  When you arrow to Word in the start menu in Windows 7, you can either press ENTER to go into a blank document (or the backstage) in Word.  Alternatively, you can press the right arrow to open a "jump list" of recent documents you have used in Word.

Insert, Delete and Format cells in Excel are setup the same way.  When you press ENTER on the insert button, for me it inserts a cell and pushes the rest down.  If I have multiple cells selected, it inserts multiple cells, pushing either right or down, depending on what was selected.

Merge and Centre, Font Colour, Accounting number format, and sum all do the same thing on the home ribbon in Excel,  They all have an action they perform if you activate them, and a list of related actions you can get to if you alt+down arrow on them.  It might not be obvious, but there you go.

Regards

Quentin.

On Sat, Feb 18, 2017 at 9:46 PM, Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...> wrote:
However playing devils advocate a little here, can one be sure that the original menu version of this worked or did it only work via mouse selection or direct shortcut?
This sounds to me like an issue with the software in that the keyboard action of getting the dialogue or whatever to focus enough to get at the options simply won't work in that case. As such it needs to be sorted by Microsoft if it has Jaws and nvda giving similar results.
Its not that the function is not there, it is, but in an illogical place and seemingly not  selectable from the ribbon route, only by mouse or keyboard shortcuts.
Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Ron Canazzi" <aa2vm@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2017 6:37 AM
Subject: [nvda] Significant Area Of Excel Where Ribbons simply Make No Sense and Don't Work


Hi Group,


I have started a new thread on this ribbon business since some have complained that the other thread had drifted away from the original intent.


Here's one big issue with ribbons and Excel.

If one wants to insert a structural element of a work book such as a row, column area or sheet, one cannot do this by navigating the ribbons.  The short cut which I will describe does work, but this was given to me by someone who figured it out with sighted help.


First of all, try looking for the items under the insert portion of the ribbon.  They simply aren't there.  Then via experimentation and observation, you find a separate insert item under the home portion of the ribbon under general.  There's a problem, if you simply navigate to the insert item, and press either enter or space bar, nothing happens. somehow if you use the shortcut alt + h, I, you do get a list of items. You can then pick the desired item and press enter and follow the prompts or whatever.  If you don't know the designated shortcut sequence, you simply can't find this item and get it to work with screen readers: JAWS or NVDA.


I know I have seen this in other Microsoft programs such as Access and Power Point as well.


I'm sorry folks, using ribbons does not give full access to screen reader users in many programs as we used to have under the standard drop down or pull down menus.


--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"











--
Quentin Christensen
Training Material Developer
Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

www.nvaccess.org 
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 


--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"




--
Quentin Christensen
Training Material Developer
Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

www.nvaccess.org 
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 


Re: Significant Area Of Excel Where Ribbons simply Make No Sense and Don't Work

Quentin Christensen
 

Ron,

Sorry, I wasn't clear in my message - you can't press right arrow on split buttons in the Excel ribbon - the example I gave of the start menu worked differently but what I was thinking when I said it, was that it might be a relatable example.

To access the split button in Excel, press alt+h for the home ribbon, then control+right arrow to get to the section as you did, then alt+down arrow, as yu can to open a drop down list.

Kind regards

Quentin.

On Sun, Feb 19, 2017 at 12:39 AM, Ron Canazzi <aa2vm@...> wrote:

Hi Quentin,


I tried navigating to the insert split button as follows:

alt + H, control + right arrow until I hear insert split button, then right arrow, nothing happens, for laughs and giggles left arrow, nothing happens, enter, space bar, attempted routing of cursors and simulated mouse click with left or right click and nothing.  This is with Office 2016/Excel.



On 2/18/2017 6:14 AM, Quentin Christensen wrote:
Actually,

Thinking on it a bit further, and looking back at the ribbon in Word and Excel, the key word is "split button".  A split button, visually, is a button where you activate the main part of it to do the most common action.  An arrow coming off the right side opens a menu of other related options.  The most common example of a split button is the start menu item for a program such as Word in Windows 7.  When you arrow to Word in the start menu in Windows 7, you can either press ENTER to go into a blank document (or the backstage) in Word.  Alternatively, you can press the right arrow to open a "jump list" of recent documents you have used in Word.

Insert, Delete and Format cells in Excel are setup the same way.  When you press ENTER on the insert button, for me it inserts a cell and pushes the rest down.  If I have multiple cells selected, it inserts multiple cells, pushing either right or down, depending on what was selected.

Merge and Centre, Font Colour, Accounting number format, and sum all do the same thing on the home ribbon in Excel,  They all have an action they perform if you activate them, and a list of related actions you can get to if you alt+down arrow on them.  It might not be obvious, but there you go.

Regards

Quentin.

On Sat, Feb 18, 2017 at 9:46 PM, Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...> wrote:
However playing devils advocate a little here, can one be sure that the original menu version of this worked or did it only work via mouse selection or direct shortcut?
This sounds to me like an issue with the software in that the keyboard action of getting the dialogue or whatever to focus enough to get at the options simply won't work in that case. As such it needs to be sorted by Microsoft if it has Jaws and nvda giving similar results.
Its not that the function is not there, it is, but in an illogical place and seemingly not  selectable from the ribbon route, only by mouse or keyboard shortcuts.
Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Ron Canazzi" <aa2vm@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2017 6:37 AM
Subject: [nvda] Significant Area Of Excel Where Ribbons simply Make No Sense and Don't Work


Hi Group,


I have started a new thread on this ribbon business since some have complained that the other thread had drifted away from the original intent.


Here's one big issue with ribbons and Excel.

If one wants to insert a structural element of a work book such as a row, column area or sheet, one cannot do this by navigating the ribbons.  The short cut which I will describe does work, but this was given to me by someone who figured it out with sighted help.


First of all, try looking for the items under the insert portion of the ribbon.  They simply aren't there.  Then via experimentation and observation, you find a separate insert item under the home portion of the ribbon under general.  There's a problem, if you simply navigate to the insert item, and press either enter or space bar, nothing happens. somehow if you use the shortcut alt + h, I, you do get a list of items. You can then pick the desired item and press enter and follow the prompts or whatever.  If you don't know the designated shortcut sequence, you simply can't find this item and get it to work with screen readers: JAWS or NVDA.


I know I have seen this in other Microsoft programs such as Access and Power Point as well.


I'm sorry folks, using ribbons does not give full access to screen reader users in many programs as we used to have under the standard drop down or pull down menus.


--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"











--
Quentin Christensen
Training Material Developer
Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

www.nvaccess.org 
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 


--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"




--
Quentin Christensen
Training Material Developer
Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

www.nvaccess.org 
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 


Re: NVDA Accessible Database Software

Rob
 

Travis Siegel <tsiegel@softcon.com> wrote:
Mysql, mariadb, firebird, are just a
few. They're all opensource, and all completely accessible if you don't
mind learning sql in order to be able to talk to them in a way they can
understand.
Even this is not always a strict requirement. There are web interfaces where you can just have the interface create and manage the database, and all you have to do is enter your tables and rows.
Of course learning sql is nice, in order to take full advantage of the backend. But if you're just entering data, you don't always need the language.


Re: NVDA Accessible Database Software

Travis Siegel <tsiegel@...>
 

What is your definition of accessible? There are lots and lots of databases that have no native interface, because they use the command line, but folks have written interfaces, (and you can too if so desired with enough programmingknowledge). Mysql, mariadb, firebird, are just a few. They're all opensource, and all completely accessible if you don't mind learning sql in order to be able to talk to them in a way they can understand. If however, you're asking about databases like ms Access, only with graphical interfaces, I can't help, because the only database I use is mysql, and custom php interfaces if they're on my own servers, or PHP my admin if they're hosted elsewhere. You need to be more specific about exactly what it is you're looking for, then folks on this list can narrow down the options for you.

On Sat, 18 Feb 2017, Carlos wrote:
Hello All!

I know that this question has come up on list many times.

I would like to be able to create/process database files.

Is there any database software paid/free that is accessible with NVDA? I know that database software is so graphical in its nature that its controls are not accessible to screen readers! But, there has to be a way for the blind to be able to use database software for work/home purposes?

Hopefully, since the last time this question was asked someone has actually found NVDA database accessible software? Or, accessible database software that is accessible in any other screen reader?

Thank You! For all your recommendations!!!


--
Carlos Gonzalez - Los Angeles, CA. - gmjc341961@gmail.com




Re: Significant Area Of Excel Where Ribbons simply Make No Sense and Don't Work

Ron Canazzi
 

The list of things to insert using that context menu does not include insert sheet. It does include column, row and movement of cells. That's interesting. No one ever mentioned that one to me. I see from help screens that you can press shift + F11 to insert a new sheet. My original point wasn't that things can't be done in later versions of Excel, but that in particular, the ribbons are not very easy to use if you want to have total control without sighted help and that in some cases, such as the split button issue I described earlier, they don't work at all.

On 2/18/2017 12:00 PM, Rui Fontes wrote:
Hello!

Why not just press Applications key, choose Insert and select what you want to insert?

Rui


-----Mensagem Original----- De: Quentin Christensen
Data: 18 de fevereiro de 2017 08:21
Para: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Assunto: Re: [nvda] Significant Area Of Excel Where Ribbons simply Make No Sense and Don't Work


Hi Ron,

You are correct, and it is definitely a bug in Office (It works exactly the same with no screen reader running). I have found one workaround, which is when you hear NVDA read "split button", you know the option opens a menu. While enter or space should work, if you press alt+down arrow, it does open the menu.

Re items on the home ribbon, I have always had a bit of a concern with the Home ribbon. After all, items on the other ribbons are more or less logical (there are a few, ok a lot, you could argue, but bear with me) - the Home ribbon, however, is purely what Microsoft THINK people need access to more regularly.

I couldn't understand why half the Word home ribbon was taken up with Styles when Word 2007 came out - after all, a good portion of Word users still likely couldn't tell you what styles are, let alone use them.

Back to inserting rows and columns specifically, and I can give you another way to do that as well:

CONTROL+SHIFT+= (CONTROL, SHIFT and EQUALS) or CONTROL+PLUS.

If you have one or more full rows selected (SHIFT+SPACEBAR btw) when you press this, it will automatically insert one or more rows above the selected rows (same number of rows as you have selected).

If you have one or more full columns selected (CONTROL+SPACEBAR for that one), then it inserts columns.

If you don't have a full row or column selected, it will open a dialog asking whether you want to shift cells right, shift cells down, insert a row or insert a column.

(Note that those are all Excel commands, there is nothing specific to NVDA there.)

Here endeth the lesson :) All this and more will be in the Microsoft Excel with NVDA training module, which will be available later this year.

Regards

Quentin.


On Sat, Feb 18, 2017 at 5:37 PM, Ron Canazzi <aa2vm@roadrunner.com> wrote:
Hi Group,


I have started a new thread on this ribbon business since some have complained that the other thread had drifted away from the original intent.


Here's one big issue with ribbons and Excel.

If one wants to insert a structural element of a work book such as a row, column area or sheet, one cannot do this by navigating the ribbons. The short cut which I will describe does work, but this was given to me by someone who figured it out with sighted help.


First of all, try looking for the items under the insert portion of the ribbon. They simply aren't there. Then via experimentation and observation, you find a separate insert item under the home portion of the ribbon under general. There's a problem, if you simply navigate to the insert item, and press either enter or space bar, nothing happens. somehow if you use the shortcut alt + h, I, you do get a list of items. You can then pick the desired item and press enter and follow the prompts or whatever. If you don't know the designated shortcut sequence, you simply can't find this item and get it to work with screen readers: JAWS or NVDA.


I know I have seen this in other Microsoft programs such as Access and Power Point as well.


I'm sorry folks, using ribbons does not give full access to screen reader users in many programs as we used to have under the standard drop down or pull down menus.

--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


Re: Significant Area Of Excel Where Ribbons simply Make No Sense and Don't Work

Rui Fontes
 

Hello!

Why not just press Applications key, choose Insert and select what you want to insert?

Rui


-----Mensagem Original-----
De: Quentin Christensen
Data: 18 de fevereiro de 2017 08:21
Para: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Assunto: Re: [nvda] Significant Area Of Excel Where Ribbons simply Make No Sense and Don't Work


Hi Ron,

You are correct, and it is definitely a bug in Office (It works exactly the same with no screen reader running). I have found one workaround, which is when you hear NVDA read "split button", you know the option opens a menu. While enter or space should work, if you press alt+down arrow, it does open the menu.

Re items on the home ribbon, I have always had a bit of a concern with the Home ribbon. After all, items on the other ribbons are more or less logical (there are a few, ok a lot, you could argue, but bear with me) - the Home ribbon, however, is purely what Microsoft THINK people need access to more regularly.

I couldn't understand why half the Word home ribbon was taken up with Styles when Word 2007 came out - after all, a good portion of Word users still likely couldn't tell you what styles are, let alone use them.

Back to inserting rows and columns specifically, and I can give you another way to do that as well:

CONTROL+SHIFT+= (CONTROL, SHIFT and EQUALS) or CONTROL+PLUS.

If you have one or more full rows selected (SHIFT+SPACEBAR btw) when you press this, it will automatically insert one or more rows above the selected rows (same number of rows as you have selected).

If you have one or more full columns selected (CONTROL+SPACEBAR for that one), then it inserts columns.

If you don't have a full row or column selected, it will open a dialog asking whether you want to shift cells right, shift cells down, insert a row or insert a column.

(Note that those are all Excel commands, there is nothing specific to NVDA there.)

Here endeth the lesson :) All this and more will be in the Microsoft Excel with NVDA training module, which will be available later this year.

Regards

Quentin.

On Sat, Feb 18, 2017 at 5:37 PM, Ron Canazzi <aa2vm@roadrunner.com> wrote:
Hi Group,


I have started a new thread on this ribbon business since some have complained that the other thread had drifted away from the original intent.


Here's one big issue with ribbons and Excel.

If one wants to insert a structural element of a work book such as a row, column area or sheet, one cannot do this by navigating the ribbons. The short cut which I will describe does work, but this was given to me by someone who figured it out with sighted help.


First of all, try looking for the items under the insert portion of the ribbon. They simply aren't there. Then via experimentation and observation, you find a separate insert item under the home portion of the ribbon under general. There's a problem, if you simply navigate to the insert item, and press either enter or space bar, nothing happens. somehow if you use the shortcut alt + h, I, you do get a list of items. You can then pick the desired item and press enter and follow the prompts or whatever. If you don't know the designated shortcut sequence, you simply can't find this item and get it to work with screen readers: JAWS or NVDA.


I know I have seen this in other Microsoft programs such as Access and Power Point as well.


I'm sorry folks, using ribbons does not give full access to screen reader users in many programs as we used to have under the standard drop down or pull down menus.


--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"









--

Quentin Christensen
Training Material Developer
Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/


Ph +61 7 3149 3306
www.nvaccess.org
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
Twitter: @NVAccess


Re: Working with not accessible interfaces. Thoughts and question.

Alexey Zhelezov
 

Thanks you for tips.

I mean interfaces which are just pictures for usual screen readers. From programs build using completely inaccessible widget kits. That approach is common in music software, these interfaces are normally loaded as plug-ins into so called hosts, Digital Audio Workstations. Since these hosts are normally intercept most keyboard shortcuts, including tab, plug-in developers provide mouse only interfaces. Corresponding widget developers forgot supporting any accessibility. Common trend, driven by marketing, is to make these interfaces more 3D. So musicians without monitors are using old conventionally written software. And my first surprise was they keep silence about that, I mean there are not many complains.

Note that I do not need anything myself. I just try to help other. But I do not want reinvent the wheel in case it is already invented. Taking into account that it took me like 2 hours after I hit the problem to imagine the solution and another 2 weeks to implement it, I am surprised it is not widely available.


Regards,

Alexey.



From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> on behalf of Shaun Everiss <sm.everiss@...>
Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2017 9:25 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Working with not accessible interfaces. Thoughts and question.
 
Hmmm do you mean image files or interfaces.
If the former abbyy fine reader costs about 200-300 australian, out of
all the scanners it is quite cheap and can do image pdfs and the like.
If you are a developer using or wanting to use interfaces for
accessibility or to make your interface accessible.
Then iaccessible 2 is good enough, tolque is used on teamtalk and a few
games I have and it supports all major ones.
If a user, then you need jaws, supernova or other reader to be fully
accessible with things maybe not sure.



On 18/02/2017 11:59 a.m., Alexey Zhelezov wrote:
> Hello,
>
>
> Short version. I need a Screen Reader. Real one. I mean the program which can work with completely not accessible interfaces, shown on the screen just as one big image. So the only possibility which comes in my mind is to parse the image, divide it into list boxes, buttons, labels, recognize the text at relevant places and use all that information the same way as NVDA process the information from accessible controls. For particular purpose I need, I have already created working prototype.
>
>
> My question: am I re-inventing the wheel? Are such add-ons or may be independent projects exist? As sighted developer, I have never touched accessibility thematic before. I have digged the internet 2 days in attempt to find something. Without success. But I guess if such programs exist, someone from you should know.
>
>
> Note that I am aware of GoldenCursor for NVDA and HotSpotClicker for JAWS. But till I completely miss the point, they are unable to represent a scrollable listbox displayed as an image the same way as NVDA represent accessible listbox.
>
>
> Long version.
>
> First of all, I want to thank Jamie for answering my question on IRC channel. That has saved me a lot of time searching for not existing bug.
>
>
> Several years ago I have started a hobby project to integrate MIDI controllers with Cakewalk Sonar DAW. Near a year ago, one of the users has noticed that the interface of my configuration platform is accessible and can help configuring MIDI. That was not an intention, the interface is in old style Win32 API. But after speaking with him, I have added SAPI5 support to my platform, opening the possibility to create accessible presets for any MIDI controller. Later another user has lost his sight. As musician he used to work with Sonar and specific music plug-ins. That Sonar version is not supported by common solutions like CakeTalking and JSonar, so we had to solve the problem other way. Started by adopting Gamepad controller, we have recently finished more powerful controller configuration. His last problem are plug-ins. Based on usual multi-platfrom widget libraries, complicated dialogs of these plug-ins produce one single word in NVDA, "None".
>
>
> As I have mentioned at the beginning, after 2 weeks I have just finishing working prototype for NVDA add-on. After testing and commenting, I will publish it. But since it does what was requested by one particular user, selecting preset using 4 cascaded list boxes in one plugin and pushing buttons in another, current mission is almost accomplished for me.
>
>
> Short description of how it works. Widget coordinates are extracted looking at the screen and carefully positioning mouse cursor. I have written a separate utility for real time magnification, displaying required information and testing OCR recognition for the region of interest. That part should be done by a sighted person. When working, add-on grabs regions of the screen and by checking colors detects current state of control. For example which element is selected in a listbox. Then  the element is passed to OCR, currently Tesseract. Because the region is small and Tesseract used as a library in memory,  even my old computer is able to work reasonably fast.
>
>
> If there is an interest in future development, please let me know.
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Alexey.
>
> www.azslow.com
www.azslow.com
News. Announces and releases. AZ Controller, MIDI controller Plug-in for Cakewalk SONAR. 34 Posts 34 Topics Last post by azslow3 in AZ Controller 0.5r4

>