Date   

Re: Seeking recommendations for app to practice object nav

Carlos Esteban Martínez Macías
 

Hi all.

Other example is the app calculator, in the history.

Regards.

 

 

Carlos Esteban Martínez Macías.

Soporte a usuarios, comunidad hispanohablante de NVDA.

Web www.nvda.es

Experto certificado en NVDA


Re: Seeking recommendations for app to practice object nav

Gene
 

I don't know how the training material available for purchase teaches object navigation. I strongly believe that for most people, while a little explanation is helpful, beyond talking about something being inside of something else, and giving examples of an object, that it may be as large as an entire document or as small as a button or check box or other control, beyond that the best way to teach it is with very concrete examples and concrete steps.

For example, open notepad, and then give precise directions for movement so the student can see how he is moving. For example, you are now in the document wwindow. If you move to the object to the left, you will be at whatever. If you move to the object to the right, you will be at whatever, If you move up to the higher object, you will be wherever. If you try to move down into another object while in the document window, you can't, because there isn't one. You move to an object, then down into it if you want to work with it. You can use analogies, finding a shoe, then putting it on, for example. Each object can be moved through if the object contains more than one thing, and each object can be moved in and out of either up, down, to the left, and to the right. In order to move out of an object, there must be another object to move into and it can be very easily demonstrated that NVDA will tell you if there is no object in the direction you are moving.

I learned object navigation mostly by moving around as I described and seeing where I was. I looked at just a little explanation and found anything more than that to be meaningless and confusing, actually, it might have been discouraging if I hadn't had enough experience to know that I could learn as I described and thus applied that method. Somepeople can learn that way mostly on their own, a lot of people can't but I believe that, if directed, they could learn well that way in this context.

This is something where the actual experience is important and where abstract description serves few people well other than as a general framework such as I described above. As far as particular programs and apps are concerned, I haven't used enough to give a lot of exazmples, but any simple program like Notepad furnishes an excellent introduction if taught well.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Deborah Armstrong
Sent: Friday, December 04, 2020 9:37 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Seeking recommendations for app to practice object nav

I had so much fun preparing two "thunderclaps" for Nvda-Con, I decided I want to do a tutorial on object nav that approaches it differently than previous efforts. Hopefully it can be something for next year's con.

Anyway, I mostly use object nav with in-house software for my job, so I need to find something free that makes good practice material. Something that really lets you exercise all the ins and outs of navigating objects.

Does anyone have a recommendation for software or a Windows 10 app that is completely accessible if you use object nav and mouse clicking to work with its features?

--Debee


Re: Seeking recommendations for app to practice object nav

molly the blind tech lover
 

Hi.

You could try the windows 10 settings app . . . Particularly in the update and security. , or the wifi setting.

Hope this helps.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Deborah Armstrong
Sent: Friday, December 4, 2020 10:38 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Seeking recommendations for app to practice object nav

 

I had so much fun preparing two "thunderclaps" for Nvda-Con, I decided I want to do a tutorial on object nav that approaches it differently than previous efforts. Hopefully it can be something for next year's con.

Anyway, I mostly use object nav with in-house software for my job, so I need to find something free that makes good practice material. Something that really lets you exercise all the ins and outs of navigating objects.

Does anyone have a recommendation for software or a Windows 10 app that is completely accessible if you use object nav and mouse clicking to work with its features?

--Debee


Seeking recommendations for app to practice object nav

Deborah Armstrong <debee@...>
 

I had so much fun preparing two "thunderclaps" for Nvda-Con, I decided I want to do a tutorial on object nav that approaches it differently than previous efforts. Hopefully it can be something for next year's con.

Anyway, I mostly use object nav with in-house software for my job, so I need to find something free that makes good practice material. Something that really lets you exercise all the ins and outs of navigating objects.

Does anyone have a recommendation for software or a Windows 10 app that is completely accessible if you use object nav and mouse clicking to work with its features?

--Debee


shortcut to list data filled cells in EXCEL

Aschalew Byness
 

Hi friends
I badly need a nvda keystrokes to see data filled cells in EXCEL. in
other words, I need an NVDA version of control+shift+d in jaws.


Re: Welcoming you to my talk at NVDACon

Deborah Armstrong <debee@...>
 

I made a small mistake in my description of my presentation. I said I would talk about "Quick Dictionary". That add-on is still only on github, not released to the entire community. Therefore I will talk about Instant translate. People interested in Quick Dictionary can search groups.io to find more information and its link. 


Re: nvda and amazon music

 

no, i don't use the desktop app, i use the website with google chrome. i can search for songs, play them, and add them to my music. But as I said, as soon as I want to access my music in the library, I need visual help. i received an invitation to amazon music family, i was pleased about the attention and thought i would try nvda. nice to know that i'm not the only one having trouble with it.


Re: nvda and amazon music

Lino Morales
 

Oh I hate that app. I'm assuming your using the desktop app? That app needs work as far as accessibility is concerned. A lot of unlabeled buttons.

On 12/3/2020 10:59 PM, heike67 wrote:
does anyone have experience with amazon music? i can't edit my playlist there. nvda tells me that it is an embedded object and i press the enter key as i read in the user manual. now i should be able to navigate in this object, but nvda just says <grid>, whatever that means. it would be nice if someone could help.


nvda and amazon music

 

does anyone have experience with amazon music? i can't edit my playlist there. nvda tells me that it is an embedded object and i press the enter key as i read in the user manual. now i should be able to navigate in this object, but nvda just says <grid>, whatever that means. it would be nice if someone could help.


Re: NVDACon 2020: program schedule is now live

 

hi
The following error occurs when using TeamTalk5Classic to connect to nvdacon.org:
TeamTalk5Classic
 ok button 
An error occurred while perform a requested command:
Not logged in
TeamTalk5Classic
 ok button 
An error occurred while perform a requested command:
Invalid account


Re: Inserting Latency in NVDA Speech and Bluetooth Audio

Tony Malykh
 

So regarding running the list, do you expect us to ask every time regarding the grey area topics? because the rules for this list state explicitly:

> 6.  Any topic that is not about using NVDA to accomplish a task, or how to control NVDA, belongs in the chat subgroup, not the main group.  All questions about how to use the specific features of a program that you’re using NVDA to access, but not about NVDA itself, belong in the chat subgroup.

So in my mind the topic of bluetooth headphones falls into that group. Or we can just try to talk about that and you can ban the thread if you don't like it?

On 12/3/2020 11:09 AM, Nimer Jaber wrote:
Hello,

Actually, I find this topic quite valuable, and definitely see how it relates to NVDA. What I don't like, as an admin, is the fact that other mailing lists were carbon-copied on this message, and would ask that this not continue. While bluetooth headphones in themselves don't seem relevant, asking for opinions on a decent one which will work with low-latency with NVDA seems to fit the purpose of the list just fine.

On Thu, Dec 3, 2020 at 10:57 AM Tony Malykh <anton.malykh@...> wrote:
On the other hand, if you are looking into switching to bluetooth
headphones, I would strongly recommend to look into APTX LL bluetooth
codec - it works with only 30ms latency - not noticeable by human ear.
You'd need to buy a transmitter that supports it and headphones that
support it. I have been using this configuration for years and it is
well worth it. If you're interested - ping me offline - I think admins
here don't like topics not related to NVDA.

On 12/2/2020 6:28 PM, Bhavya shah wrote:
> Dear all,
>
> This may come off as an odd request, but I do need it to simulate a
> certain scenario. I would like to have NVDA's speech - with the same
> voice settings and my same ESpeak-NG - be outputted but with a delay
> of 150 ms. Latency is generally frowned upon, yes, but I would like to
> artificially manufacture it at present. Is there some way of doing
> this?
>
> For context, I am aware that standard Bluetooth audio (sans low
> latency audio codecs) typically have an associated latency of 150-250
> ms. Since I do not have the required equipment to test that
> practically, I want to emulate that latency with NVDA on my laptop
> speakers so as to get a sense of how much a couple hundred
> milliseconds of delay is likely to affect me in the real world.
>
> Thanks.
>







--
Best,

Nimer Jaber

The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it was
addressed. If you believe that you are not the intended recipient,
please notify me via reply email and destroy all copies of this
correspondence. Action taken as a result of this email or its contents
by anyone other than the intended recipient(s) may result in civil or
criminal charges. I have checked this email and all corresponding
attachments for security threats. However, security of your machine is
up to you. Thanks.

Registered Linux User 529141.
http://counter.li.org/

To find out about a free, open-source, and versatile screen reader for Windows, visit nvaccess.org

You can follow @nimerjaber on Twitter for the latest technology news.

To contact me, you can reply to this email or you may call me at (970) (393-4481) and I will do my best to respond to you promptly.

Thank you, and have a great day!


Re: HIMS Syncbraille Display and NVDA on Desktop PC

Dark Count
 

Well, not quite.

I was unable to use it before narrator.

That is why I gave it a try.


D C

On 12/2/2020 12:42 AM, Pele West wrote:
Hi

I think you have said it. I found, using the Braille Sense, that if I
used Narrator to read braille I could no longer use the Braille Sense
with NVDA.

I hope someone on here can tell you how to get out of this hole, because
I don't know the answer.

pele West





Re: two different problems with NVDA and reading email

Bob Cavanaugh <cavbob1993@...>
 

Yes, System Access does this all the time in Outlook, haven't had that
problem with NVDA. As for the checkboxes on the Gmail website, that's
what I've been doing but I guess I'm used to System Access, where it
automatically says "sender name checkbox not checked." I'll have to
play around with the two screen readers to find other examples of
where tabbing through reads checkboxes in one screen reader but not
the other.

On 12/3/20, Gene <gsasner@gmail.com> wrote:
If I understand what is wanted, when moving to the check box, the person
who the message is from is wanted to be read before anything else.  I'm
not sure if check box checked or unchecked is wanted to be read or
when.  Screen-readers exist in complex environments and there are times
when, for whatever reasons, human intervention is needed to get what you
want read when you want it read.  Sometimes, this isn't possible and
sometimes it is.  In this case, all I have to do in the simple HTML view
is to type the letter x to move to a check box, then immediately down
arrow.  The sender of the message is read immediately.


Implementing a feature where the first line below a check box is read in
general or at least on some web sites may not be a good solution.  It
may do what is wanted on this or that site and not on others where it
may create unwanted verbosity.


I suppose it might be tailored for a specific site but something like
that, I would think, would probably be done by an Add-on, such as a
GMail add-on.

But this concept of helping a screen-reader is important and my
impression is that a lot of users don't do this.


I'll give two examples:

When I use NVDA's browse mode search, if I don't use read current line,
I hear all sorts of unwanted verbosity before what is found is read.  If
I issue the search command, then use the read current navigator
;position, numpad 8 in  the desktop layout, what is wanted is read
immediately.


I don't recall now if I issue a find command, wait for NVDA to start
speaking, then issue the read current line command, or if I issue the
find command, then wait a moment and issue the read current line command
even before speech has begun.  You can experiment and see if both work.


This greatly improves the efficiency of the Browse Mode find command and
it becomes automatic after a little while, which is the reason I don't
recall the exact time when I issue the command.


When you repeat a search, numpad insert, f3 on the main keyboard, what
is wanted is read without doing anything else.  That is the desktop
layout command for repeat search.


Here is the other example:

In Outlook and in Thunderbird, I have seen behavior complained of such
as when you open a message, you hear unwanted information read or read
and repeated.  The solution is to open the message, then issue the read
to end command.  You can experiment.  You may have to wait a moment,
just how long you  can determine before the command is able to work,
probably depending on when the message finishes loading.  You don't have
to wait until speech automatically begins.  Using this command becomes
automatic after a little while and greatly increases efficiency and
causes you to hear little or no unwanted verbosity.


Gene

On 12/3/2020 12:33 AM, Bob Cavanaugh wrote:
I'm not sure if I made my point clear enough on this. I am used to the
way System Access reads things, which is that when tabbing through and
landing on the checkboxes, it reads who the message is from right away
without having to use any extra table commands. Is there some way this
can be implemented in NVDA? It seems like there are situations like
this all over the web.

On 12/2/20, Chris Mullins <cjmullins29@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Bob
I can’t comment on the Outlook issues but regarding the Gmail basic HTML
view, when you are browsing the list of messages, you are in a table, so
use
the table reading commands rather than just tabbing. These are
Control+alt+left/right/up/down arrows, so, for example you can move up
and
down the subject column to read them. Personally, I hate the gmail
interface and have linked my gmail account to the W10 mail app and find
it
much easier to manage.

Cheers
Chris

From: Bob Cavanaugh
Sent: 02 December 2020 05:32
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] two different problems with NVDA and reading email

H













Re: Inserting Latency in NVDA Speech and Bluetooth Audio

Nimer Jaber
 

Hello,

Actually, I find this topic quite valuable, and definitely see how it relates to NVDA. What I don't like, as an admin, is the fact that other mailing lists were carbon-copied on this message, and would ask that this not continue. While bluetooth headphones in themselves don't seem relevant, asking for opinions on a decent one which will work with low-latency with NVDA seems to fit the purpose of the list just fine.

On Thu, Dec 3, 2020 at 10:57 AM Tony Malykh <anton.malykh@...> wrote:
On the other hand, if you are looking into switching to bluetooth
headphones, I would strongly recommend to look into APTX LL bluetooth
codec - it works with only 30ms latency - not noticeable by human ear.
You'd need to buy a transmitter that supports it and headphones that
support it. I have been using this configuration for years and it is
well worth it. If you're interested - ping me offline - I think admins
here don't like topics not related to NVDA.

On 12/2/2020 6:28 PM, Bhavya shah wrote:
> Dear all,
>
> This may come off as an odd request, but I do need it to simulate a
> certain scenario. I would like to have NVDA's speech - with the same
> voice settings and my same ESpeak-NG - be outputted but with a delay
> of 150 ms. Latency is generally frowned upon, yes, but I would like to
> artificially manufacture it at present. Is there some way of doing
> this?
>
> For context, I am aware that standard Bluetooth audio (sans low
> latency audio codecs) typically have an associated latency of 150-250
> ms. Since I do not have the required equipment to test that
> practically, I want to emulate that latency with NVDA on my laptop
> speakers so as to get a sense of how much a couple hundred
> milliseconds of delay is likely to affect me in the real world.
>
> Thanks.
>







--
Best,

Nimer Jaber

The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it was
addressed. If you believe that you are not the intended recipient,
please notify me via reply email and destroy all copies of this
correspondence. Action taken as a result of this email or its contents
by anyone other than the intended recipient(s) may result in civil or
criminal charges. I have checked this email and all corresponding
attachments for security threats. However, security of your machine is
up to you. Thanks.

Registered Linux User 529141.
http://counter.li.org/

To find out about a free, open-source, and versatile screen reader for Windows, visit nvaccess.org

You can follow @nimerjaber on Twitter for the latest technology news.

To contact me, you can reply to this email or you may call me at (970) (393-4481) and I will do my best to respond to you promptly.

Thank you, and have a great day!


Re: Inserting Latency in NVDA Speech and Bluetooth Audio

Tony Malykh
 

On the other hand, if you are looking into switching to bluetooth headphones, I would strongly recommend to look into APTX LL bluetooth codec - it works with only 30ms latency - not noticeable by human ear. You'd need to buy a transmitter that supports it and headphones that support it. I have been using this configuration for years and it is well worth it. If you're interested - ping me offline - I think admins here don't like topics not related to NVDA.

On 12/2/2020 6:28 PM, Bhavya shah wrote:
Dear all,

This may come off as an odd request, but I do need it to simulate a
certain scenario. I would like to have NVDA's speech - with the same
voice settings and my same ESpeak-NG - be outputted but with a delay
of 150 ms. Latency is generally frowned upon, yes, but I would like to
artificially manufacture it at present. Is there some way of doing
this?

For context, I am aware that standard Bluetooth audio (sans low
latency audio codecs) typically have an associated latency of 150-250
ms. Since I do not have the required equipment to test that
practically, I want to emulate that latency with NVDA on my laptop
speakers so as to get a sense of how much a couple hundred
milliseconds of delay is likely to affect me in the real world.

Thanks.


Re: NVDA Verbosity for Grouping and sorting messages in Outlook - Can it be changed?

Tony Malykh
 

I can't help you with Outlook, but I just wanted to mention that this is one of the annoyances that prompted me to look for an alternative email client - and that's how I found Thunderbird. In terms of verbosity it is much better. So if you are not bound to outlook, fwiw you can consider Thunderbird as well.

--Tony

On 11/4/2020 10:14 AM, Josh Miele wrote:

Folks:

I'm looking for advice on reducing the verbosity of the message grouping info in Microsoft outlook.

As you navigate through messages, tasks, notes, or any other Outlook items that have been sorted and grouped, there is an extremely long announcement that happens whenever you transition from one group to another. Groups can be date ranges, priority flags, labels, etc. depending on how you've sorted your items. Sometimes the grouping info actually seems to be spoken twice which makes it even worse. The final frustration of the problem is that the relevant information about the newly selected Outlook item is spoken after the grouping information, which means you need to sit through a flood of overly-verbose and redundant TTS before you can get to the info ab out the current item.

For example, inbox messages are grouped by "today," "Yesterday," "last week," etc. If you're arrowing down through the message list, the info about each message is spoken as it is selected (e.g., subject, sender, arrival time, etc.). However, when you arrow from the first message of Today to the last message from Yesterday, NVDA speaks a bunch of info about the newly selected group before speaking the expected message info. Depending on the grouping and sorting criteria, this can be quite a bit of verbiage...

A relatively tame example of a grouping message is: "Group by: Expanded: Date: Yesterday grouping Group by: Expanded: Date: Yesterday Selected: Expanded" These messages can be much longer if you've sorted by criteria in addition to date.

Obviously we need access to the info about these groupings, but I find the way it's presented to be extremely frustrating. Can anybody tell me how to reduce this verbosity or to improve the user experience with this?

BTW, I recently installed the Outlook Extended add-on which is really cool. I was hoping the authors might have included some mechanism for managing this problem, but unfortunately not yet.

Best to all!

--JAM


Re: Inserting Latency in NVDA Speech and Bluetooth Audio

Tony Malykh
 

Here is a quick hack. Open NVDA python console and type:

import time
originalSpeechSpeak = speech.speak
def preSpeak(speechSequence, symbolLevel=None, *args, **kwargs):
    time.sleep(0.5)
    return originalSpeechSpeak(speechSequence, symbolLevel, *args, **kwargs)
speech.speak = preSpeak


You'd need to restart your NVDA for the delay to go away.

HTH

--Tony

On 12/2/2020 6:28 PM, Bhavya shah wrote:
Dear all,

This may come off as an odd request, but I do need it to simulate a
certain scenario. I would like to have NVDA's speech - with the same
voice settings and my same ESpeak-NG - be outputted but with a delay
of 150 ms. Latency is generally frowned upon, yes, but I would like to
artificially manufacture it at present. Is there some way of doing
this?

For context, I am aware that standard Bluetooth audio (sans low
latency audio codecs) typically have an associated latency of 150-250
ms. Since I do not have the required equipment to test that
practically, I want to emulate that latency with NVDA on my laptop
speakers so as to get a sense of how much a couple hundred
milliseconds of delay is likely to affect me in the real world.

Thanks.


Re: NVDA reading only one line with NVDA-down arrow

Ann Byrne
 

Thanks. The problem was that she was in laptop mode instead of desktop. Easy fix. Phew!

At 10:03 AM 12/3/2020, you wrote:

Hi Ann,
Maybe see if the following setting helps:

* NVDA Key/Insert + N (open NVDA settings)
* Select 'Preferences';
* Select 'Settings';
* Select 'Keyboard'; and
* check the box for, "Allow skim reading in Say All."
I had a similar problem and this seemed to address it.

I hope this or one of the other suggestions helps!

Kristina


Re: Making NVDA profiles in diffrent languages

 

On Thu, Dec 3, 2020 at 02:03 AM, Tyler Spivey wrote:
That has disadvantages.
-
Not to mention that this would require re-creating the portable copies with each NVDA update.

You can easily set up whatever number of desktop shortcuts are needed for the invocations of NVDA with the -C argument as needed, and name them appropriately, e.g., NVDA English, NVDA Deutsche, etc.

And even when that's done, you'll still have to switch language under Windows if you want absolutely everything "to match" as far as the language being used goes.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

If you think that you can think about a thing, inextricably attached to something else, without thinking of the thing it is attached to, then you have a legal mind.

        ~ Thomas Reed Powell

 


Re: NVDA reading only one line with NVDA-down arrow

Niemi, Kristina@DSS
 

Hi Ann,

Maybe see if the following setting helps:

  1. NVDA Key/Insert + N (open NVDA settings)
  2. Select 'Preferences';
  3. Select 'Settings';
  4. Select 'Keyboard'; and
  5. check the box for, "Allow skim reading in Say All."
I had a similar problem and this seemed to address it.

I hope this or one of the other suggestions helps!

Kristina

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