Date   

Re: NVDA Certification?

Quentin Christensen
 

Hi everyone,

To compliment the training modules we are slowly releasing, a series of certifications is also being developed.  The first of these, to correspond to the knowledge gained from the "Basic Training for NVDA" module, is due to be available shortly.

The assessment will be online, and yes, achieving certification will be something that you may include in your e-mail signature or promotional material etc.

Apologies for the delay in making the certification available - as is so often the case, it always takes longer to implement that you at first think, but we'd rather have it a little later than originally planned, but done right.

I'll be sure and let the group know once it's available.

Kind regards

Quentin.


On Thu, Dec 8, 2016 at 1:00 PM, Christopher-Mark Gilland <clgilland07@...> wrote:
OK, but this comes back to you if I get in trouble. LOL!
 
NVDA Certification is an exciting new program which allows participants to demonstrate and confirm their in-depth knowledge of NVDA.
 
This program is particularly suited to:
 
list of 5 items
• Trainers
• Technicians
• Accessibility professionals
• Add-on developers
• Dedicated users of NVDA who wish to demonstrate their proficiency.
More information on how to become certified will be available on the NVDA web site shortly.
 
This was taken from section 14.14.
 
Finally taken from instructions.txt:
 
Upon completion of the topics in this module, you may be interested in sitting the certification exam.  Successful completion of the certification will enable you to be listed as a certified user, and provide you with a uniquely numbered, printable certificate you can use to quantify your proficiency with NVDA (available 3rd quarter 2016).  Please see http://www.nvaccess.org/ for details.
 
Chris.

 




--
Quentin Christensen
Training Material Developer
Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

Direct: +61 413 904 383
www.nvaccess.org 
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 


Re: NVDA Certification?

Christopher-Mark Gilland <clgilland07@...>
 

OK, but this comes back to you if I get in trouble. LOL!
 
NVDA Certification is an exciting new program which allows participants to demonstrate and confirm their in-depth knowledge of NVDA.
 
This program is particularly suited to:
 
list of 5 items
• Trainers
• Technicians
• Accessibility professionals
• Add-on developers
• Dedicated users of NVDA who wish to demonstrate their proficiency.

More information on how to become certified will be available on the NVDA web site shortly.
 
This was taken from section 14.14.
 
Finally taken from instructions.txt:
 
Upon completion of the topics in this module, you may be interested in sitting the certification exam.  Successful completion of the certification will enable you to be listed as a certified user, and provide you with a uniquely numbered, printable certificate you can use to quantify your proficiency with NVDA (available 3rd quarter 2016).  Please see http://www.nvaccess.org/ for details.
 
Chris.

 


Re: how to use mozilla thunderbird with nvda?

Travis Siegel <tsiegel@...>
 

Again, I'll repeat myself (again) imap, pop3, and a whole host of other services have default ports.  There's nothing at all required for a program to use these default ports to offer preliminary setup guesses as to any configuration.  In addition, basic names such as smtp.hostname and pop3.hostname and so on have become the defacto defaults in internet servers.  Any email program can easily use these standard defaults, and get it right 90 percent of the time.  And, even if those standards don't work, it still makes it easier for folks to change the defaults to fit their needs.  There is not database entry for softcon.com in thunderbird's database, I can guarantee you that, yet it still offered up the standard internet defaults for these services, and because I followed general internet guidelines, the defaults worked.  That's just common sense, and it has nothing to do with looking up anything in a database. 
Admittedly, there are some services that don't use their own servers, and others that don't use standard names/ports, and it's likely thunderbird has tried to make a record of the ones they know about, to save some trouble for folks using those services, and that's helpful, but I'm simply pointing out, that in most cases, database lookups aren't necessary.
On 12/7/2016 7:21 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
On Wed, Dec 7, 2016 at 02:23 pm, Travis Siegel wrote:
it doesn't take any sort of a database for any email client

 Travis,

        No coder worth his salt, or product worth it's either, would try to make "an educated guess" regarding e-mail server configurations.  I suggest you take a look at the Thunderbird Features Page, Mail Account Setup Wizard section where the text states, "Now all you need to provide is your name, email address, and password and the email account set up wizardry will check our database and find the email settings for you."

         I've had enough instances where Thunderbird did not set up accounts automatically where I had every reason to believe it would to know it isn't guessing - it knows or it doesn't.  If it doesn't, you manually configure and it's best to look up the servers, ports, and security you'll be using before doing so.

--
Brian

Here is a test to find out whether your mission in life is complete.  If you’re alive, it isn’t.

    ~ Lauren Bacall

    






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Re: NVDA Certification?

Travis Siegel <tsiegel@...>
 

Post the relevant passage, it's called fair use, nobody is going to sue you for it.



On 12/7/2016 7:21 PM, Christopher-Mark Gilland wrote:
Actually, in the EBook, which is sold through
 
 
It states that there is indeed a certification.
 
I know nothing more about this, than there being an exam, and that your name then would be added to the list of certified NVDA users. I don't wish to break copyright, so I won't post the reference here, but it does indeed state this near the very top of the book content.
 
Chris.
----- Original Message -----
From: Joseph Lee
Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2016 7:06 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA Certification?

Hi,

At this point, if I heard right, NV Access does not offer certification programs. If it did, signatures of some members would say so.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Christopher-Mark Gilland
Sent: Wednesday, December 7, 2016 4:01 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA Certification?

 

They do, yes, but I  don't know much about it. Hopefully someone can chime in, as I'd be interested as well in this.

 

Chris.

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Merv Keck

Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2016 6:44 PM

Subject: [nvda] NVDA Certification?

 

Hi,

VFO has several certification programs for their products including Magic and Jaws. I was wondering if NVDA has a certification that can be achieved as well?

Thanks in advance,

Merv

 





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Re: Potential problem with the Remote addon

 

One thing I want to know in reguards to remote, is does it only run when nvda is running or will it run if nvda is set at login if nvda iis set to start at login.
Reason is that with all the security with it and leaving autoconnect on, if it does not run if theo option to login is not selected or the program is not started, I can set it up on each of the remotes I work with with a key then whenever I need to do work I can get people to run one command and I can just go and do whatever.

On 8/12/2016 12:36 p.m., Chris Mullins wrote:
I use the remote add-on regularly, so I am familiar with the concept. The bit I am struggling with is why, knowing the concept, anyone would think an f11 keypress could be sent to the remote computer by pressing NVDA+f2 followed by f11 on the controlling computer.



Cheers

Chris



From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Travis Siegel
Sent: 7 December 2016 16:04
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Potential problem with the Remote addon



He did explain that at the beginning. I understood perfectly what he was asking the whole time, and honestly, I can't figure out why others didn't get it. It's a simple concept. f11 toggles between local and remote, f11 is needed to do something on the remote host, but the addon takes the f11 key regardless of whether the passthrough key is pressed or not. What's so hard to understand about that?

That's what Chris said in the very first post on this topic. I didn't answer, because I didn't have a response that would help. Why did it take 10 rounds of back and forth to get this across?





On 12/7/2016 12:16 AM, Gene wrote:

If you had explained this at the beginning, it would have saved a lot of confusion.



Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Christopher-Mark Gilland <mailto:clgilland07@gmail.com>

Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2016 9:35 PM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] Potential problem with the Remote addon



Shruggs, never mind. I'm tired of trying to explain this. It's not your fault. NO hard feelings. I just don't know how simpiler to put this.



I am the controller. He is the controlee. He can hit F11 on his end. I however cannot as F11 toggles between me sending keys and not sending keys.



I get that with him being the controlee, he could hit F11 to his heart's content, and it wouldn't toggle between keystrokes being sent to him or not.



For him, if he hits F11, it would then simply perform the regular function of F11. If I hit it, it'll toggle. I get that. OK? Make that totally clear. I get it!



Here is where the problem is coming in though.



On his computer, the computer I am controlling, he's running a program which requires pressing of the F11 key to open a certain dialog within the program.



When focus is in that particular program, if he, not I, but he! hits F11, the dialog comes up no problem.



If I! hit F11 though, it toggles between sending keys and not sending keys.



So, if I am on his computer, and I'm sending keys to his system, I go to the start window, I navigate and open up that program, OK, you following me? I open up that program, on his? end, not on mine, the program launches and is in the foreground. I then press F11 to bring up that dialog. I instead hear not sending keys. The reason is because F11 on the controller's computer toggles between the two machines. sending, and not sending, keystrokes.



So... he can hit F11, but if I'm carrying out a task helping him, I don't always want to have to say, hey Joe Blow, hit your F11 key, I can't hittit for you.



There needs to be a way to tell the Remote addon when on either! the remote controller's end or the controlee's end, either! it doesn't matter if you're sending keys or not. That's totally irrelavent. The point is, regardless, there needs to be an equal way that the controller also have full functionality of the keyboard. The controller needs a way to be able to send an F11 key to the controlee's machine. It shouldn't always be up to the controlee to have to hit F11. Either person should have a way to be able to do it.



So, my logic of thinking was, OK, the Remote addon is obviously seeing when I hit F11 that I'm trying to switch between sending and not sending keystrokes. I don't want NVDA interpreting that and sending the F11 key through to the Remote addon, thereby toggling key sending on/off. I want to be sending key commands to the controlee's system. While doing so, I want to be able to press NVDA F2, pass a key through, this way, NVDA doesn't give two damns less about that F11 key. For all NVDA cares, I never pressed it to start with.



I need that NVDA+F2 to bypass the F11 key so that when I hit F11 while sending keys, the Remote addon doesn't detect the keystroke and toggle me back to my machine, but instead sends the F11 key to the controlee's system as a regular keyboard shortcut, thereby within the program in question activating sed dialog as a result of the F11 key being the command coded into this application to activate that screen.



What I was apparently trying to say in a not so good way, or so it seems, is that when I press the NVDA+F2 to pass the next keystroke through to the OS, bypassing NVDA and all addons accordingly, as soon as I do this and hear pass key through, if I then hit F11, the key isn't getting passed; it's still sending the F11 key through being interpreted by NVDA, thereby toggling me back to not sending key commands, same as if I'd just hit F11 without first passing the key through.



In practice, I'd think that if I pass a key through, then the next press of F11 should be sent to which ever machine I'm presently controlling, that is not what I'm observing though.



I really! really! really really really! really! can't make it any more childplay elementary comprehensible than this. I've spelled in black and white precisely down to a T what the problem is. I don't possess any skill of knowledge to make this easier put.



If this makes sense, then great, but if not, then I'm out of symantic ways to explain it.



Again, no hard feelings, but this really shouldn't be this hard to grasp.



Chris.

----- Original Message -----

From: Chris Mullins <mailto:cjmullins29@gmail.com>

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2016 7:00 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Potential problem with the Remote addon



You said “hearing NVDA say pass key through, then hitting F11, I can't send an F11 key to his computer” then “He can hit F11 and obviously it works”. I took this to mean you pressed NVDA+f2 to try and bypass the sendkey operation of f11 and send it to the remote computer. If, when the guy on the remote computer presses f11 it works OK, why would you need to run an NVDA bypass command on that computer?



When a remote connection is made, the keyboard of the controlled computer works as normal, so f11 is f11. On the keyboard of the controlling computer however, the f11 key acts as a sendkey toggle, so even if you are ‘sending keys’, the f11 keypress is never transmitted to the remote computer. I suggested a double/triple keypress event as a sendkey toggle as this is more unlikely to be required by an app you are interacting with on a remote computer.



Cheers

Chris



From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Christopher-Mark Gilland
Sent: 6 December 2016 20:04
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Potential problem with the Remote addon



But I want the bipass command and the F11 to be executed at the remote end.



I'm not sure how much more simple to put this.

----- Original Message -----

From: Chris Mullins <mailto:cjmullins29@gmail.com>

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2016 7:29 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Potential problem with the Remote addon



Hi

There has to be a key or key combination which the controlling NVDA uses to switch the key send feature, in this case it happens to be f11. Using the bypass command doesn’t work because if you are sending keys, it’s executing at the remote end. Perhaps the remote add-on could be tweaked to use a double or triple tap of F11 to switch the key sending mode on and off, with a single keypress being treated as any other key.



Cheers

Chris

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Christopher-Mark Gilland
Sent: 6 December 2016 00:00
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Potential problem with the Remote addon



Yeah, I sent it to the list earlier, but, who knows... LOL! It's all good.

----- Original Message -----

From: Gene <mailto:gsasner@ripco.com>

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Sent: Monday, December 05, 2016 6:32 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Potential problem with the Remote addon



Yes, that makes sense. I don't recall your original message but it makes sense now.



Gene

------ Original Message -----

From: Christopher-Mark Gilland <mailto:clgilland07@gmail.com>

Sent: Monday, December 05, 2016 4:48 PM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] Potential problem with the Remote addon



Gene,



One of us is confused.



Yes it does make sense you'd issue the bypass command. This friend of mine has an app that he uses which uncommonly has F11 mapped as one of the keystrokes to perform a task within that application. So, regardless if NVDA is in the equasion or not, even if a sighted person was using this same application, F11 would be the command one would need to hit to execute this function. The problem is, F11 is also assigned to the NVDA remote addon to toggle between sending or not sending keys.



If I am trying to help him with something in this program, and we get to the point where F11 is required, yeah, I can make him hit the key for me, but that's really a poor way of doing things. I should be able in one form a or another to have the same level of control as him, not 99.9999%. If I am sending keys, and am focused in that application on his system, then try hitting F11, it stops sending keys. Why? Because F11 is ultimately set to be interceptid by the Remote Addon, so therefore that takes

precedents over the application in question therefore causing a key conflict. This is why I need the Remote addon to ignore me hitting F11. This way the application sees it, not the remote addon. That's why I was trying to first do a pass key through.



If this doesn't make sense, then I'm not sure how more elementary to explain it. Maybe someone else can.



Chris.

----- Original Message -----

From: Gene <mailto:gsasner@ripco.com>

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Sent: Monday, December 05, 2016 5:37 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Potential problem with the Remote addon



It doesn't make sense that you would use the bypass key before issuing the f11 command. This is clearly an NVDA add on command and you would want it to go to NVDA so the add on will intercept it and take an action.



Whatever the problem is, the bypass key won't solve it, as you found.



Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Christopher-Mark Gilland <mailto:clgilland07@gmail.com>

Sent: Monday, December 05, 2016 4:32 PM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: [nvda] Potential problem with the Remote addon



So, a friend and I were both playing with the NVDA Remote addon. I was controlling his computer.



The Addon worked flawlessly with one exception: For whatever reason, you know how F11 is used for sending/not sending keys? I know earlier I talked about needing the keystroke to pass a key through, which was told to me to be NVDA+F2. Thank you for that information, by the way. The problem is, even after doing this, hearing NVDA say pass key through, then hitting F11, I can't send an F11 key to his computer, no matter what!



He! can hit F11 and obviously it works, but shouldn't the controller also be able to do this?



This one's got me a bit baffled. Further, in the Tools menu of NVDA under Remote, I tried sending a CTRL+Alt+Del, and that neither is working. It just acts like I did nothing at all.



Does anyone know how to get both these issues resolved short of contacting Christopher Toth, who usually never seems to respond back to me cvia e-mail nor via Twitter, not sure why not?



Chris.





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Re: Is any release prior to the latest stable release, and thenext RC release, officially supported? #NVDARelease

 

True, but if you had a 64 bit processer why would you.
Before talking dosbox the only reason I did this was for 16 bit code and to be honest some of that runs better on the old style terminal but to be honest thats going to go away.
We won't have choices next time around.
A lot of new systems will be using more than 4gb ram and 32 bit while still round is getting less and less.

On 8/12/2016 1:44 p.m., Gene wrote:
Unless both versions of Windows were either 64 or 32 bit, such comparisons aren't valid. 64 bit versions of Windows use more resources. You can run a 32 bit version of Windows 7 on much less than 4gb of RAM. I don't know what the minimum is but it's much less.

It may be that Windows 7 requires more resources but I suspect you are comparing 32 bit XP with 64 bit Windows 7.

Gene
----- original Message -----

From: Rob
Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2016 6:15 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Is any release prior to the latest stable release, and thenext RC release, officially supported? #NVDARelease


Gene <gsasner@ripco.com> wrote:
XP isn't more stable than later versions of Windows.
It is less resource hungry than later versions of windows. Every time, for example, I tried to run windows 7 on anything less than 4 gb, I constantly got out of memory messages. XP, however, hummed along just fine on 1 gb.




Re: Is any release prior to the latest stable release, and thenext RC release, officially supported? #NVDARelease

 

Well stability is caused by drivers, malware, hardware issues and well microsoft causes issues.
All those updates, true of late they are to stop people clicking things, but ms can happily break its own os.
To ilistrate it all, dos all versions up to 6.22 fine.
win 3.1 fine.
win95 ok ish 95 osr2 fine.
98, ok ish
98se, fine bar usb issues.
me, bad.
2000 good.
xp retail, crap! sp1 ok
sp2 better sp3 well same as sp2.
vista.
Previded you turned off uac and a few other things good enough but basically crap.
win7, good.
win8 crap!
win 8.1 better but still crap!
win 10.
The desktop is fine.
But thats about it.
The start menu is ok I guess but still I prefured win7's.
the explorer with all those ribbons is basically destroyed.
Universal apps, well we can stop there.
Bar the times I used groove and granted for what I needed it for was fine, universal apps while they may have a place on a tablet or smart phone I repeat do! not have any use what so ever on a pc.
Neither do the automatic ms accounts and all that junk.
If you are a standard user using standard desktop apps well.
There are also limitations on what things can be done right now according to articles.
To be honest, if there was a way to run either an xp/win7 shell not just the start menu but the explorer shell as well I would do that, the old sound recorder was good for short files.
In fact I found win7 to be the best os.
Win10 is good if and when it works but not good if it doesn't And the bottem line is that while windows has got more stable when it breaks we have no idea what it is and how to fix it.
At least if my older dos broke you could find and fix the module, replace the drive or just reinstall if needed.
In windows xp I must admit the system did break a lot with out mirror drivers meaning you had to reformat a lot.
In 7 I havn't had that happen fully just yet.
I am close to reformatting a system which has just used it for 6 years with broken bits reasonably ok.

On 8/12/2016 1:13 p.m., Gene wrote:
XP isn't more stable than later versions of Windows. Instability is caused by problems such as driver incompatibility, hardware problems, and other reasons I don't have enough technical knowledge to discuss. But there is a misconception that you often hear that XP is more stable.

gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Arlene
Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2016 4:21 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Is any release prior to the latest stable release, and thenext RC release, officially supported? #NVDARelease


Hi, Is xp your favorite version of windows? If it is. all the world to you. If you like playing games on it. Especially ones that are geared for the blind. All the world to you. From what I heard, other blind computer users said xp was more stable.

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of nasrin khaksar
Sent: December-07-16 12:44 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Is any release prior to the latest stable release, and thenext RC release, officially supported? #NVDARelease

hi quentin.
thanks extremely for your kindness and sympathy with me as always and thanks extremely for your guide and great news about continuation of support for my favorite windows!

On 12/7/16, nasrin khaksar <nasrinkhaksar3@gmail.com> wrote:
hi david.
i tried uninstalled and reinstallation of nvda and also potplayer and
nothing has change.
and also, i wrote narrator with the correct spelling narrator!

On 12/7/16, nasrin khaksar <nasrinkhaksar3@gmail.com> wrote:
hi travis.
i am completely agree with you.
thanks so much for your comment.

On 12/7/16, Gene <gsasner@ripco.com> wrote:
I am very skeptical that uninstalling and reinstalling NVDA will help.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: David
Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2016 7:38 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Is any release prior to the latest stable
release, and thenext RC release, officially supported? #NVDARelease


OK, sorry I don't know much other than this to try. Long as you
spelled the narrator phrase correctly, which I am sure you have
double-checked, and your Windows do not start the service.


One last resort that comes to mind, have you ever considered
reinstalling NVDA? I would think thare might be a way to back up all
your NVDA settings, to something like a USB pen. Then completely
remove the screen reader from your system. Redownload a fresh copy,
and install NVDA all from scrach. Reboot, and perform your testing
in the software of your choice.


Something might have got broken in your installation of NVDA. And
you might have incidentially changed a setting somewhere. So if you
have never done a reinstallation, you hereby are encouraged.


Apart from that, I am out of ideas. Hope someone else will help you out.


David

On 12/6/2016 6:52 PM, nasrin khaksar wrote:
david,
i dont open two screen reader simultaneously.
i only installed both and when openning one, closed another and it
was not compatible for my system.
and about narrator, i am completely sure that dont have it.
i wrote it in the run and the run window became closed without any
error!

On 12/6/16, Rosemarie Chavarria <knitqueen2007@gmail.com> wrote:
I think Microsoft stopped support for windows XP in 2014 if I'm
not mistaken.




On 12/6/2016 7:01 AM, nasrin khaksar wrote:
antony, do you know the last version of nvda which supports xp?
whats the last version that i can use?
i realy wish that its be possible supporting of xp forever.

On 12/6/16, Supanut Leepaisomboon <supanut2000@outlook.com> wrote:
Well, you get to enjoy the benefits of both OSes. Think of it
this way, if you install Windows XP mode in Windows 7, and when
you go into Windows XP and install anything, it shows up in the
Windows 7 start menu so it's relatively easy to launch; although
the catch is that I think XP mode is not available for the home
editions of Windows 7, except for Windows 7 Ultimate.
From my tests in the past, NVDA does work under XP mode.

In response to a message earlier, yes, free/open source software
stopped supporting old versions of Windows later than paid ones,
but eventually old versions of Windows will not be supported.
Take Firefox, Mozilla stopped supporting Windows 2000 I think a
year or 2-3 years after Windows
2000
became unsupported by Microsoft.






--
we have not sent you but as a mercy to the creation.
holy quran, chapter 21, verse 107.
in the very authentic narration is:
imam hosein is the beacon of light and the ark of salvation.
best website for studying islamic book in different languages
al-islam.org

--
we have not sent you but as a mercy to the creation.
holy quran, chapter 21, verse 107.
in the very authentic narration is:
imam hosein is the beacon of light and the ark of salvation.
best website for studying islamic book in different languages
al-islam.org

--
we have not sent you but as a mercy to the creation.
holy quran, chapter 21, verse 107.
in the very authentic narration is:
imam hosein is the beacon of light and the ark of salvation.
best website for studying islamic book in different languages al-islam.org







Re: Is any release prior to the latest stable release, and thenext RC release, officially supported? #NVDARelease

 

I agree xp pre sp1 sucked, with sp2 and up was a lot better.
I do aggree with you on 7 though I am used to the search box, xp got old anyway.
As for 10, I am still menu centric.
I had a crazy time yesterday after buying some stuff online from ms store, got the win10 system I use for that sort of thing, tried to sign into groove to get the tracks, tried to click sign to this app link with narator and it just didn't click.
Had to spend an hour getting the accounts setting to open so I could convert the account back to what it was supposed to be.
Spent another hour getting the music.
Spent yet another hour fixing things so they worked right again.
I personally don't miss windows 10.
I had to make a new folder and this had me tabbing round all over the show with ribbons.
I was happy to go back to 7, and well if I was given xp I'd go backto that, I'd loose the search box but whatever.
Sadly the best oses becides their limitations were the 9x dos type oses which didn't have issues with intercepter drivers.
They did have things like hardware needing drivers which we don't have for a lot of standard stuff but they were ok before.
The last os to not need microsofts rediculous activation, genuine advantage and stupid piracy measures which just mean us users have to take the bill for it all or install cracks was 2000.
The last office version that didn't have this junk was either 2000 or 1997 I think.

On 8/12/2016 1:36 p.m., Lenron wrote:
xp sucked to me and I don't miss it. Would rather use 10 or 7 anyday.

On 12/7/16, Rob <captinlogic@gmail.com> wrote:
Gene <gsasner@ripco.com> wrote:
XP isn't more stable than later versions of Windows.
It is less resource hungry than later versions of windows. Every time, for
example, I tried to run windows 7 on anything less than 4 gb, I constantly
got out of memory messages. XP, however, hummed along just fine on 1 gb.




Re: Windows XP support was: RE: [nvda] Is any release prior to the latest stable release, and thenext RC release, officially supported? #NVDARelease

Gene
 

The message wasn't talking about your thread at all.  The message was commenting on reading threads by conversation and had nothing to do with commenting on your thread specifically.  I don't know why the message was sent and why it was attached to your thread.  But it was discussing Outlook Express and Outlook. 
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2016 6:18 PM
Subject: Re: Windows XP support was: RE: [nvda] Is any release prior to the latest stable release, and thenext RC release, officially supported? #NVDARelease

I wasn't so much angered. I was more just concerned, as the way it came across was you could delete Chris's thread without reading it all in one bang. It kind of made me feel like, "Oh, crud! Did I say something, or do something wrong?" I figured it was just an error. I know they probably were not talking specifically about my post, but admittedly, it did sound a bit snide. Again though, no hard feelings. She did indeed clarify, and it's all good as far as I'm concerned.
 
Chris.
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Gene
Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2016 7:05 PM
Subject: Re: Windows XP support was: RE: [nvda] Is any release prior to the latest stable release, and thenext RC release, officially supported? #NVDARelease

The remark isn't snide and ethics are not involved.  This may have been a message mistakenly attached to an incorrect thread.  Or there may be some other explanation but it obviously has nothing to do with your previous comments nor with this thread.  Error should be presumed.  
 
Gene 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2016 4:31 PM
Subject: Re: Windows XP support was: RE: [nvda] Is any release prior to the latest stable release, and thenext RC release, officially supported? #NVDARelease

Just curious. What exactly does my earlier thread have to do with this discussion about Outlook Express? Did I do or say something wrong? If so, please write me off list rather than publicly referencing my posts with some snide remark, with all due respect. - Doing so isn't ethical.
 
If you want to take this up with me privately, my address is:
 
 
I'll be happy to address your concerns off list.
 
Chris.
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Arlene
Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2016 5:24 PM
Subject: Re: Windows XP support was: RE: [nvda] Is any release prior to the latest stable release, and thenext RC release, officially supported? #NVDARelease

Oh! Speaking of outlook express! What I liked about it, if you didn’t want to read a thread. For example. Chris’s computer problem. You can heave the thread! I forgot how you used to do it using outlook express. I’m not sure how one does it using outlook 2010.   

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Isaac
Sent: December-06-16 9:52 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: Windows XP support was: RE: [nvda] Is any release prior to the latest stable release, and thenext RC release, officially supported? #NVDARelease

 

besides, jaws, windoweyes, and any apps that need dotnet 4.5 or higher are not supported among the latest java release, and so much more.  Trust me, I just tried a week a go, to make a complete install with and with out the hack, applying the updates manually, but it isn't worth it.  But, if your a die-hard fan, you can still use firefox and outlook express.

----- Original Message -----

From: Gene

Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2016 11:12 PM

Subject: Re: Windows XP support was: RE: [nvda] Is any release prior to the latest stable release, and thenext RC release, officially supported? #NVDARelease

 

Microsoft says that the updates are not intended for the standard version of XP.  Call it a hack or something else, you are using an unsupported means to get unsupported updates that are intended for a different version of XP than is used on standard computers.  I'm not taking a position on whether the patches work or work properly.  I'm simply saying that if you do this, you hope but you don't know. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

 

Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2016 8:24 PM

Subject: Re: Windows XP support was: RE: [nvda] Is any release prior to the latest stable release, and thenext RC release, officially supported? #NVDARelease

 

The simple hack is to make your regular xp machine look like an embeded xp install.  It has nothing to do with xp as a whole.  Microsoft is still supporting the embeded version of xp until 2019.  That isn't a hack, that's the truth, and denying it won't change anything.

Xp embeded version is being supported until 2019. It's not the version of xp folks run on their computers, but it's close enough that you can piggyback on that support to keep your xp machine patched until then.

No, it's not a direct support by microsoft (for the desktop version) and microsoft has said they don't recommend folks do this, but they've also comitted to supporting the embeded market until 2019, and that means (contrary to popular belief) that microsoft does support xp still, albeit a specific version of xp, but nonetheless, they do still support xp.

 

 

On 12/6/2016 9:06 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:

Uh, anything that requires a so-called "simple hack" is not officially supported, period.

Microsoft has declared XP support over and it's incredibly foolish to doubt their commitment to leaving it behind.
--
Brian

Here is a test to find out whether your mission in life is complete.  If you’re alive, it isn’t.

    ~ Lauren Bacall

    

 




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Re: Is any release prior to the latest stable release, and thenext RC release, officially supported? #NVDARelease

 

On Wed, Dec 7, 2016 at 04:15 pm, Rob wrote:
It is less resource hungry than later versions of windows. Every time, for example, I tried to run windows 7 on anything less than 4 gb, I constantly got out of memory messages. XP, however, hummed along just fine on 1 gb.

The need (or desire, actually) for more memory just keeps growing and growing and the reduction in cost has been a factor in that.  I will agree that XP was a lot less resource intensive, but Gene is correct that it is not more stable than later releases of Windows.

I'm wondering when the disc drive itself, whether SSD or otherwise, is going to be supplanted.  Friends of mine recently received  256 GB micro SD cards as part of  Samsung's concerted effort to get their Note 7s back from them.  I can remember when 256 GB was the capacity of between six and ten average sized PC hard drives. 
-- 
Brian

Here is a test to find out whether your mission in life is complete.  If you’re alive, it isn’t.

    ~ Lauren Bacall

    



Re: Is any release prior to the latest stable release, and thenext RC release, officially supported? #NVDARelease

Gene
 

Unless both versions of Windows were either 64 or 32 bit, such comparisons aren't valid.  64 bit versions of Windows use more resources.  You can run a 32 bit version of Windows 7 on much less than 4gb of RAM.  I don't know what the minimum is but it's much less. 
 
It may be that Windows 7 requires more resources but I suspect you are comparing 32 bit XP with 64 bit Windows 7.
 
Gene
----- original Message -----

From: Rob
Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2016 6:15 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Is any release prior to the latest stable release, and thenext RC release, officially supported? #NVDARelease

Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
> XP isn't more stable than later versions of Windows.

It is less resource hungry than later versions of windows. Every time, for example, I tried to run windows 7 on anything less than 4 gb, I constantly got out of memory messages. XP, however, hummed along just fine on 1 gb.




Re: how to use mozilla thunderbird with nvda?

 

On Wed, Dec 7, 2016 at 02:35 pm, Ejaz Shah wrote:
Under Account Settings, Synchronisation and Storage, try unchecking Keep messages for this account on this computer.

I haven't looked in this set of settings in years.  They've definitely changed their defaults, and foolishly in my opinion, to download everything and keep it locally.  That's very useful if you need to access your e-mail when you don't have an internet connection, but if you're virtually constantly connected it makes little sense or no sense.

They give you IMAP folder level granularity for which you want to download for each account and then further control on synchronization by date and message size plus delete control by age, message count, and whether or not to retain starred messages as exceptions to those settings.

I would have been willing to bet my life that all message bodies were not downloaded and kept locally in addition to on the server, because that wasn't often done in the past and really doesn't make much sense in a constantly connected scenario where you can keep all your most recent messages locally.  The likelihood of my needing a message from anything before a month or so ago on an urgent basis is virtually zero.  I don't need them taking up disc space. 
--
Brian

Here is a test to find out whether your mission in life is complete.  If you’re alive, it isn’t.

    ~ Lauren Bacall

    



Re: Is any release prior to the latest stable release, and thenext RC release, officially supported? #NVDARelease

Lenron
 

xp sucked to me and I don't miss it. Would rather use 10 or 7 anyday.

On 12/7/16, Rob <captinlogic@gmail.com> wrote:
Gene <gsasner@ripco.com> wrote:
XP isn't more stable than later versions of Windows.
It is less resource hungry than later versions of windows. Every time, for
example, I tried to run windows 7 on anything less than 4 gb, I constantly
got out of memory messages. XP, however, hummed along just fine on 1 gb.



--
Lenron Brown
Cell: 985-271-2832
Skype: ron.brown762


Re: NVDA Certification?

 

Hi,

I see. Quentin, can you clarify this?

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Christopher-Mark Gilland
Sent: Wednesday, December 7, 2016 4:21 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA Certification?

 

Actually, in the EBook, which is sold through

 

 

It states that there is indeed a certification.

 

I know nothing more about this, than there being an exam, and that your name then would be added to the list of certified NVDA users. I don't wish to break copyright, so I won't post the reference here, but it does indeed state this near the very top of the book content.

 

Chris.

----- Original Message -----

From: Joseph Lee

Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2016 7:06 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA Certification?

 

Hi,

At this point, if I heard right, NV Access does not offer certification programs. If it did, signatures of some members would say so.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Christopher-Mark Gilland
Sent: Wednesday, December 7, 2016 4:01 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA Certification?

 

They do, yes, but I  don't know much about it. Hopefully someone can chime in, as I'd be interested as well in this.

 

Chris.

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Merv Keck

Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2016 6:44 PM

Subject: [nvda] NVDA Certification?

 

Hi,

VFO has several certification programs for their products including Magic and Jaws. I was wondering if NVDA has a certification that can be achieved as well?

Thanks in advance,

Merv

 


Re: NVDA Certification?

Christopher-Mark Gilland <clgilland07@...>
 

Actually, in the EBook, which is sold through
 
 
It states that there is indeed a certification.
 
I know nothing more about this, than there being an exam, and that your name then would be added to the list of certified NVDA users. I don't wish to break copyright, so I won't post the reference here, but it does indeed state this near the very top of the book content.
 
Chris.

----- Original Message -----
From: Joseph Lee
Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2016 7:06 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA Certification?

Hi,

At this point, if I heard right, NV Access does not offer certification programs. If it did, signatures of some members would say so.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Christopher-Mark Gilland
Sent: Wednesday, December 7, 2016 4:01 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA Certification?

 

They do, yes, but I  don't know much about it. Hopefully someone can chime in, as I'd be interested as well in this.

 

Chris.

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Merv Keck

Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2016 6:44 PM

Subject: [nvda] NVDA Certification?

 

Hi,

VFO has several certification programs for their products including Magic and Jaws. I was wondering if NVDA has a certification that can be achieved as well?

Thanks in advance,

Merv

 


Re: how to use mozilla thunderbird with nvda?

 

On Wed, Dec 7, 2016 at 02:23 pm, Travis Siegel wrote:
it doesn't take any sort of a database for any email client

 Travis,

        No coder worth his salt, or product worth it's either, would try to make "an educated guess" regarding e-mail server configurations.  I suggest you take a look at the Thunderbird Features Page, Mail Account Setup Wizard section where the text states, "Now all you need to provide is your name, email address, and password and the email account set up wizardry will check our database and find the email settings for you."

         I've had enough instances where Thunderbird did not set up accounts automatically where I had every reason to believe it would to know it isn't guessing - it knows or it doesn't.  If it doesn't, you manually configure and it's best to look up the servers, ports, and security you'll be using before doing so.

--
Brian

Here is a test to find out whether your mission in life is complete.  If you’re alive, it isn’t.

    ~ Lauren Bacall

    



Re: Windows XP support was: RE: [nvda] Is any release prior to the latest stable release, and thenext RC release, officially supported? #NVDARelease

Christopher-Mark Gilland <clgilland07@...>
 


I wasn't so much angered. I was more just concerned, as the way it came across was you could delete Chris's thread without reading it all in one bang. It kind of made me feel like, "Oh, crud! Did I say something, or do something wrong?" I figured it was just an error. I know they probably were not talking specifically about my post, but admittedly, it did sound a bit snide. Again though, no hard feelings. She did indeed clarify, and it's all good as far as I'm concerned.
 
Chris.
 

----- Original Message -----
From: Gene
Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2016 7:05 PM
Subject: Re: Windows XP support was: RE: [nvda] Is any release prior to the latest stable release, and thenext RC release, officially supported? #NVDARelease

The remark isn't snide and ethics are not involved.  This may have been a message mistakenly attached to an incorrect thread.  Or there may be some other explanation but it obviously has nothing to do with your previous comments nor with this thread.  Error should be presumed.  
 
Gene 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2016 4:31 PM
Subject: Re: Windows XP support was: RE: [nvda] Is any release prior to the latest stable release, and thenext RC release, officially supported? #NVDARelease

Just curious. What exactly does my earlier thread have to do with this discussion about Outlook Express? Did I do or say something wrong? If so, please write me off list rather than publicly referencing my posts with some snide remark, with all due respect. - Doing so isn't ethical.
 
If you want to take this up with me privately, my address is:
 
 
I'll be happy to address your concerns off list.
 
Chris.
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Arlene
Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2016 5:24 PM
Subject: Re: Windows XP support was: RE: [nvda] Is any release prior to the latest stable release, and thenext RC release, officially supported? #NVDARelease

Oh! Speaking of outlook express! What I liked about it, if you didn’t want to read a thread. For example. Chris’s computer problem. You can heave the thread! I forgot how you used to do it using outlook express. I’m not sure how one does it using outlook 2010.   

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Isaac
Sent: December-06-16 9:52 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: Windows XP support was: RE: [nvda] Is any release prior to the latest stable release, and thenext RC release, officially supported? #NVDARelease

 

besides, jaws, windoweyes, and any apps that need dotnet 4.5 or higher are not supported among the latest java release, and so much more.  Trust me, I just tried a week a go, to make a complete install with and with out the hack, applying the updates manually, but it isn't worth it.  But, if your a die-hard fan, you can still use firefox and outlook express.

----- Original Message -----

From: Gene

Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2016 11:12 PM

Subject: Re: Windows XP support was: RE: [nvda] Is any release prior to the latest stable release, and thenext RC release, officially supported? #NVDARelease

 

Microsoft says that the updates are not intended for the standard version of XP.  Call it a hack or something else, you are using an unsupported means to get unsupported updates that are intended for a different version of XP than is used on standard computers.  I'm not taking a position on whether the patches work or work properly.  I'm simply saying that if you do this, you hope but you don't know. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

 

Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2016 8:24 PM

Subject: Re: Windows XP support was: RE: [nvda] Is any release prior to the latest stable release, and thenext RC release, officially supported? #NVDARelease

 

The simple hack is to make your regular xp machine look like an embeded xp install.  It has nothing to do with xp as a whole.  Microsoft is still supporting the embeded version of xp until 2019.  That isn't a hack, that's the truth, and denying it won't change anything.

Xp embeded version is being supported until 2019. It's not the version of xp folks run on their computers, but it's close enough that you can piggyback on that support to keep your xp machine patched until then.

No, it's not a direct support by microsoft (for the desktop version) and microsoft has said they don't recommend folks do this, but they've also comitted to supporting the embeded market until 2019, and that means (contrary to popular belief) that microsoft does support xp still, albeit a specific version of xp, but nonetheless, they do still support xp.

 

 

On 12/6/2016 9:06 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:

Uh, anything that requires a so-called "simple hack" is not officially supported, period.

Microsoft has declared XP support over and it's incredibly foolish to doubt their commitment to leaving it behind.
--
Brian

Here is a test to find out whether your mission in life is complete.  If you’re alive, it isn’t.

    ~ Lauren Bacall

    

 




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This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
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Re: Is any release prior to the latest stable release, and thenext RC release, officially supported? #NVDARelease

Rob
 

Gene <gsasner@ripco.com> wrote:
XP isn't more stable than later versions of Windows.
It is less resource hungry than later versions of windows. Every time, for example, I tried to run windows 7 on anything less than 4 gb, I constantly got out of memory messages. XP, however, hummed along just fine on 1 gb.


Re: Is any release prior to the latest stable release, and thenext RC release, officially supported? #NVDARelease

Gene
 

XP isn't more stable than later versions of Windows.  Instability is caused by problems such as driver incompatibility, hardware problems, and other reasons I don't have enough technical knowledge to discuss.  But there is a misconception that you often hear that XP is more stable.
 
gene

----- Original Message -----
From: Arlene
Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2016 4:21 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Is any release prior to the latest stable release, and thenext RC release, officially supported? #NVDARelease

Hi, Is xp your favorite version of windows? If it is. all the world to you. If you like playing games on it. Especially ones that are geared for the blind. All the world to you.  From what I heard, other blind computer users said xp was more stable.

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of nasrin khaksar
Sent: December-07-16 12:44 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Is any release prior to the latest stable release, and thenext RC release, officially supported? #NVDARelease

hi quentin.
thanks extremely for your kindness and sympathy with me as always and thanks extremely for your guide and great news about continuation of support for my favorite windows!

On 12/7/16, nasrin khaksar <nasrinkhaksar3@...> wrote:
> hi david.
> i tried uninstalled and reinstallation of nvda and also potplayer and
> nothing has change.
> and also, i wrote narrator with the correct spelling narrator!
>
> On 12/7/16, nasrin khaksar <nasrinkhaksar3@...> wrote:
>> hi travis.
>> i am completely agree with you.
>> thanks so much for your comment.
>>
>> On 12/7/16, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
>>> I am very skeptical that uninstalling and reinstalling NVDA will help.
>>>
>>> Gene
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>
>>> From: David
>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2016 7:38 PM
>>> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
>>> Subject: Re: [nvda] Is any release prior to the latest stable
>>> release, and thenext RC release, officially supported? #NVDARelease
>>>
>>>
>>> OK, sorry I don't know much other than this to try. Long as you
>>> spelled the narrator phrase correctly, which I am sure you have
>>> double-checked, and your Windows do not start the service.
>>>
>>>
>>> One last resort that comes to mind, have you ever considered
>>> reinstalling NVDA? I would think thare might be a way to back up all
>>> your NVDA settings, to something like a USB pen. Then completely
>>> remove the screen reader from your system. Redownload a fresh copy,
>>> and install NVDA all from scrach. Reboot, and perform your testing
>>> in the software of your choice.
>>>
>>>
>>> Something might have got broken in your installation of NVDA. And
>>> you might have incidentially changed a setting somewhere. So if you
>>> have never done a reinstallation, you hereby are encouraged.
>>>
>>>
>>> Apart from that, I am out of ideas. Hope someone else will help you out.
>>>
>>>
>>> David
>>>
>>> On 12/6/2016 6:52 PM, nasrin khaksar wrote:
>>>> david,
>>>> i dont open two screen reader simultaneously.
>>>> i only installed both and when openning one, closed another and it
>>>> was not compatible for my system.
>>>> and about narrator, i am completely sure that dont have it.
>>>> i wrote it in the run and the run window became closed without any
>>>> error!
>>>>
>>>> On 12/6/16, Rosemarie Chavarria <knitqueen2007@...> wrote:
>>>>> I think Microsoft stopped support for windows XP in 2014 if I'm
>>>>> not mistaken.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 12/6/2016 7:01 AM, nasrin khaksar wrote:
>>>>>> antony, do you know the last version of nvda which supports xp?
>>>>>> whats the last version that i can use?
>>>>>> i realy wish that its be possible supporting of xp forever.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 12/6/16, Supanut Leepaisomboon <supanut2000@...> wrote:
>>>>>>> Well, you get to enjoy the benefits of both OSes. Think of it
>>>>>>> this way, if you install Windows XP mode in Windows 7, and when
>>>>>>> you go into Windows XP and install anything, it shows up in the
>>>>>>> Windows 7 start menu so it's relatively easy to launch; although
>>>>>>> the catch is that I think XP mode is not available for the home
>>>>>>> editions of Windows 7, except for Windows 7 Ultimate.
>>>>>>>   From my tests in the past, NVDA does work under XP mode.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In response to a message earlier, yes, free/open source software
>>>>>>> stopped supporting old versions of Windows later than paid ones,
>>>>>>> but eventually old versions of Windows will not be supported.
>>>>>>> Take Firefox, Mozilla stopped supporting Windows 2000 I think a
>>>>>>> year or 2-3 years after Windows
>>>>>>> 2000
>>>>>>> became unsupported by Microsoft.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> we have not sent you but as a mercy to the creation.
>> holy quran, chapter 21, verse 107.
>> in the very authentic narration is:
>> imam hosein is the beacon of light and the ark of salvation.
>> best website for studying islamic book in different languages
>> al-islam.org
>>
>
>
> --
> we have not sent you but as a mercy to the creation.
> holy quran, chapter 21, verse 107.
> in the very authentic narration is:
> imam hosein is the beacon of light and the ark of salvation.
> best website for studying islamic book in different languages
> al-islam.org
>


--
we have not sent you but as a mercy to the creation.
holy quran, chapter 21, verse 107.
in the very authentic narration is:
imam hosein is the beacon of light and the ark of salvation.
best website for studying islamic book in different languages al-islam.org







Re: Windows XP support was: RE: [nvda] Is any release prior to the latest stable release, and thenext RC release, officially supported? #NVDARelease

 

On Wed, Dec 7, 2016 at 04:05 pm, Gene wrote:
Error should be presumed.

 Reworking something I posted elsewhere earlier:  Never attribute to malice that which can be explained by human error.
--
Brian

Here is a test to find out whether your mission in life is complete.  If you’re alive, it isn’t.

    ~ Lauren Bacall