Date   

Re: making a program accessible (was spss inaccessibility: absolutely inexcusable)

 

You need to learn python first learning how to code addons is semi easy with the guide.
Another way is to use the controler client to control things.
Failing that there are libraries like tolque that can control multiple screen readers at once and that may be enough.

On 17/11/2016 7:55 a.m., Gene wrote:
How much learning and work do you want to do? others will probably comment on this but there are people in the community who will work on making programs accessible when requested. But how many there are and how available their services are, I don't know. I'm sure you can learn how to do things like script but you might rather look into having someone do this.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Travis Siegel
Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2016 12:46 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] making a program accessible (was spss inaccessibility: absolutely inexcusable)


It's a disk management program written in C++, but that is immaterial. The process for making a program accessible with NVDA should be documented/discussed somewhere, and I want to find that documentation, so I can make this program accessible whether it be via scripting, or some other process. Once that's done, I'll more than likely use the same process (assuming there is such a process) to make other not accessible programs usable. Perhaps this is the wrong list to be asking these questions, but I have to start somewhere.






On 11/16/2016 1:12 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:

What sort of base program are we talking about here?

A great many programs (again, depending on age and how widely used) introduced alternate text to allow graphics of any type to be labeled and most screen readers rely on that alternate text to tell you what the graphic you've landed on happens to be.

It's well nigh impossible to tell anything meaningful based on most icon file names. I'm also trying to envision the sort of program being discussed, which is almost certainly not web based (or you'd have scripting support related to browser already in place) but does present information on the screen. Since icons are mentioned I'd have to believe a GUI is involved, too.
--
Brian

Here is a test to find out whether your mission in life is complete. If you’re alive, it isn’t.

~ Lauren Bacall










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Re: spss inaccessibility: absolutely inexcusable

 

I agree.
The majority of the compiled scripts for nvda for the core are compressed in a library zipfile.
In there if you care to look, there are clearly titled folders which have all the apps that need them pluss the core compiled files.
Nvda is one large script thats why its most successfull.
Maybe if all readers just used python they would be that good.
So if you want to be technical you are running python2.7 engine right now with the nvda project compiled under it under your flashy windows os.

On 17/11/2016 7:22 a.m., Gene wrote:
NVDA uses plenty of scripts. you just don't know it because the scripts are not exposed to the user in NVDA or discussed often. Any modern screen-reader relies heavily on scripts.

A screen-reader can't just read what is on screen. How does it know what order to read material? If a certain line of text needs to be read when it comes up, how is the screen-reader to know when to do so? What if five or ten lines of text come up under certain conditions but the blind user needs to hear one specific line. Without scripting, how is the screen-reader supposed to know what to read?

There was a screen-reader years ago, ASAW, that largely relied on artificial intellligence and programming to read what is on the screen. it worked reasonably well but there were programs in which it read nothing when it should have read something to read something. Also, those were simpler times. The program worked with Windows 3.1 and Windows 95. I don't know if it could have been made to work nearly as well in today's more compplex environment. And as I said, it had some problems, though I dohn't know if they could have been ironed out with further development.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Travis Siegel
Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2016 11:49 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] spss inaccessibility: absolutely inexcusable


This is something folks generally don't realize. Jaws is nothing but a glorified scripting engine. If you deleted all the scripts from jaws, there would be next to nothing it could do all by itself. This is an approach I never liked, and I never understood why screen readers didn't make more of an effort to just read what's on the screen, regardless of what/where it was. NVDA works hard to accomplish this, and this was also the approach of windowbridge (hey, I didn't bring it up), It's always boggled my mind how little the commercial screen readers (with the exception of windowbridge) could do on their own. I'm strongly of the opinion that script based screen readers are useless, because if there is no script, the program can't do anything. If it mad an attempt to see what was on the screen, at least then you have a fighting chance to find what you need on the screen, even if it doesn't know what it is. I never understood the whole scripting approach myself, but some folks seem to like it, so I guess if it works for them, then more power to them, but it certainly isn't my choice, I'd much prefer to have a screen reader that at least makes an attempt to see what's on the screen, instead of saying, oh well, no script, can't help you.






On 11/16/2016 11:11 AM, Brian Vogel wrote:

SPSS (if it's the same SPSS I know of, and it probably is), was originally called the Statistical Package for the Social Sciences, is ancient, and has long since come into common use for number crunching in many disciplines. That being said, SPSS was developed long before accessibility was on virtually anyone's radar.

I was, for a very long time, under the grossly mistaken impression that screen readers had been developed such that they could make a decent attempt to read virtually anything that might pop up on a screen. I was recently disabused of that notion when working with a client who was expected to be able to use Interaction Desktop by Interaction Intelligence and a number of custom screen-based, but not web-based, programs developed for the client company. It became abundantly clear instantly that JAWS (in this case, but it could have been any screen reader, this isn't JAWS bashing) was utterly incapable of interpreting the first thing that was on the screen because the underlying scripting for these applications did not exist. We take for granted the way screen readers do function with common office suites and web browsers because an untold number of hours have been dedicated to creating the scripting that ships with them to handle these programs. There is no way that any company can develop scripts "for everything" so the focus will logically be on the things that can benefit the most people in the most settings. SPSS is absolutely a niche market, writ large. In the context of the population at large, blind or not, very, very few people will ever touch SPSS. That would not be a logical place to dedicate a lot of resources to as a result.

The above being said, after my experience with the client I made reference to, I was able to determine that there are several sites that had blind individuals using the software in question and that a significant scripting base was in place already and I believe it was actually done by Freedom Scientific. What I do not understand is why companies like Freedom Scientific, when they're doing this work, do not have some contractual language in place that allows them to add said scripts to a central repository that they would maintain. It is insane to keep reinventing the wheel, and that's exactly what happens when it comes to relatively little used commercial software when scripts have to be created, again and again, for each blind user at each site. I was shocked that Freedom Scientific could not tell me whether any scripts existed or whether JAWS was known to have been used over Interaction Desktop. Screen readers themselves are niche markets in the grand scheme of things and they would be boosting their respective reputations and really serving an important function of increasing accessibility for niche products if they set themselves up as centralized script repositories, with the proviso that they are not actively maintaining said scripts, just so a baseline would exist to work with when needed.

You can't convince me that SPSS hasn't been scripted, probably hundreds of times now, but where, for what screen reader or screen readers, who knows?
--
Brian

Here is a test to find out whether your mission in life is complete. If you’re alive, it isn’t.

~ Lauren Bacall










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Re: ANOTHER STRANGE THING

Quentin Christensen
 

Hi Melissa,

Apologies for replying late, I've been away and am just catching up on e-mail.  So apologies also if this has already been answered elsewhere.

NVDA can be setup to use either insert key or capslock as its modifier key.  A page is presented when you first install it to select, however you can also access the page by pressing NVDA+control+k - just remember to use insert rather than caps lock ass the NVDA key in this case.  In that screen you can then set or confirm the keys.  Note that NVDA has several options on this page which are relavent here:

"Keyboard layout" lets you select desktop or laptop layout.  This does NOT change the modifier key, but rather the keystrokes themselves.  So in desktop layout, the command to read all is NVDA+down arrow.  In laptop layout, the same command is NVDA+a

"Use capslock as an NVDA modifier key"
"Use numpad insert as an NVDA modifier key" and
"Use extended insert as an NVDA modifier key" are three checkboxes which let you choose which key or keys to use for NVDA.  Note that you can have all three set if you wish.  Numpad insert is the 0 on the number pad and numlock needs to be off for this key to work with NVDA.  Extended insert is the top left key in the block above the arrows on a full size keyboard which contains: "insert", "delete", "home", "end", "page up" and "page down".

Kind regards

Quentin.



On Wed, Nov 9, 2016 at 11:49 AM, Melissa Galbraith <wvflutist@...> wrote:
i MAY HAVE ADDRESSED THIS IN PREVIOUS EMAILS BUT CAN'T REMEMBER. wHEN i USE nvda ON MY VISA COMPUTER THE COMMANDS THAT USE A HARD INSERT KEY INSTEAD OF CAPS, i CAN USE THE COMMANDS.  i HAVE MY LAPTOP SET UP AS LAPTOP FORMAT AND USE CAPS LOCKS, BUT IT DOESN'T DO THE COMMANDS.  i'M USING THE CORRECT COMMANDS FOR WHAT i WANT, BUT T DOESN'T WORK.  aNY SUGGESTIONS?


mELISSA







--
Quentin Christensen
Training Material Developer
Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

Direct: +61 413 904 383
www.nvaccess.org 
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 


Re: spss inaccessibility: absolutely inexcusable

 

Well technically nvda is a script based screen reader.
I mean its a python based one.
I just tried to clear every pyo, pid, picl pic and other python file from the thing.
It didn't even work, kill the library zip file, and then the python dlls and I get a couple nice errors.
This was on a portable version to.
Nvda is based around a scripting engine its not custom made, but it is based round a scripting engine.
Jaws yes I agree to many scripts just about everything else is going into scripts now.
What sets nvda appart I guess then is its built round windows itself using libraries allready there for the most part, uia msaa rich text, win32, other libraries within windows mostly.
There are hooks for displays and a few other things but there are no video intercepts at all.
Before nvda you needed those for graphics interception and we can thank microsoft for making it hard for us blinks on the nt based system.
Everything should be in that reguard using the same library but uia can be broken and well.
I don't think scripts are the problem its how they are used.
nvda is half script and half standard files, its why addons can be dangerous but also helpfull, its why we can run programs within nvda to run other programs.
In a way nvda is not a screen reader, more like one of those talking dos shells than anything else with the way things are.
The difference is you can make nvda scripts do almost everything.
From running ocr engines to looking for weather with just one click.
To maybe doing your shopping for you, to voice recognition and much more.
On the other side it shares the risks associated with the model.

It can be abused and misused.
A lot of readers are moving or trying to move to the lua script languages and java script though to bring things in line.
One thing while we are on the subject which concerns me is how chummy some of our tech reviewers are.
I know for example that cool blind tech is up and cosy with microsoft maintaining that narator is really good as a primary reader.
Narator has never been good as a primary reader, its why I am using nvda.
In 10 they are trying to make it better but I can't trust them anymore, why are we buying jaws, using nvda and other things when we could just use narator.
Narator was bad to start off with, its reputation as far as I care is ruined.
Its just the microsoft setup screen reader on a windows desktop now in mobile it aparently works for its apps.
But we want more than microsoft apps.

On 17/11/2016 6:49 a.m., Travis Siegel wrote:
This is something folks generally don't realize. Jaws is nothing but a
glorified scripting engine. If you deleted all the scripts from jaws,
there would be next to nothing it could do all by itself. This is an
approach I never liked, and I never understood why screen readers didn't
make more of an effort to just read what's on the screen, regardless of
what/where it was. NVDA works hard to accomplish this, and this was
also the approach of windowbridge (hey, I didn't bring it up), It's
always boggled my mind how little the commercial screen readers (with
the exception of windowbridge) could do on their own. I'm strongly of
the opinion that script based screen readers are useless, because if
there is no script, the program can't do anything. If it mad an attempt
to see what was on the screen, at least then you have a fighting chance
to find what you need on the screen, even if it doesn't know what it
is. I never understood the whole scripting approach myself, but some
folks seem to like it, so I guess if it works for them, then more power
to them, but it certainly isn't my choice, I'd much prefer to have a
screen reader that at least makes an attempt to see what's on the
screen, instead of saying, oh well, no script, can't help you.



On 11/16/2016 11:11 AM, Brian Vogel wrote:

SPSS (if it's the same SPSS <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SPSS> I
know of, and it probably is), was originally called the Statistical
Package for the Social Sciences, is ancient, and has long since come
into common use for number crunching in many disciplines. That being
said, SPSS was developed long before accessibility was on virtually
anyone's radar.

I was, for a very long time, under the grossly mistaken impression
that screen readers had been developed such that they could make a
decent attempt to read virtually anything that might pop up on a
screen. I was recently disabused of that notion when working with a
client who was expected to be able to use Interaction Desktop by
Interaction Intelligence and a number of custom screen-based, but not
web-based, programs developed for the client company. It became
abundantly clear instantly that JAWS (in this case, but it could have
been any screen reader, this isn't JAWS bashing) was utterly incapable
of interpreting the first thing that was on the screen because the
underlying scripting for these applications did not exist. We take
for granted the way screen readers do function with common office
suites and web browsers because an untold number of hours have been
dedicated to creating the scripting that ships with them to handle
these programs. There is no way that any company can develop scripts
"for everything" so the focus will logically be on the things that can
benefit the most people in the most settings. SPSS is absolutely a
niche market, writ large. In the context of the population at large,
blind or not, very, very few people will ever touch SPSS. That would
not be a logical place to dedicate a lot of resources to as a result.

The above being said, after my experience with the client I made
reference to, I was able to determine that there are several sites
that had blind individuals using the software in question and that a
significant scripting base was in place already and I believe it was
actually done by Freedom Scientific. What I do not understand is why
companies like Freedom Scientific, when they're doing this work, do
not have some contractual language in place that allows them to add
said scripts to a central repository that they would maintain. It is
insane to keep reinventing the wheel, and that's exactly what happens
when it comes to relatively little used commercial software when
scripts have to be created, again and again, for each blind user at
each site. I was shocked that Freedom Scientific could not tell me
whether any scripts existed or whether JAWS was known to have been
used over Interaction Desktop. Screen readers themselves are niche
markets in the grand scheme of things and they would be boosting their
respective reputations and really serving an important function of
increasing accessibility for niche products if they set themselves up
as centralized script repositories, with the proviso that they are not
actively maintaining said scripts, just so a baseline would exist to
work with when needed.

You can't convince me that SPSS hasn't been scripted, probably
hundreds of times now, but where, for what screen reader or screen
readers, who knows?
--
*/Brian/*

*/Here is a test to find out whether your mission in life is complete.
If you’re alive, it isn’t./*

//~ Lauren Bacall





Re: Screen Shots with NVDA

Quentin Christensen
 

Hi David,


Apologies for the late jumping in on this thread.   Just thought I'd clarify what the other respondents have said:


alt+print screen captures an image of only the current window.


print screen (with no other keys) captures the entire screen.


On my system, control+print screen captures an image of the screen, copies it to drop box and copies the link to that image to the clipboard.


This doesn't look like it affects your original question, but since we're on the topic.  Often I want to include the mouse pointer in a screen shot.  There is no built-in way to do this in Windows.  I use a program called IrfanView, whose main purpose is as an image viewer.  It also has a screen capture function which has many more options than the built-in function.  It's free which is nice: http://www.irfanview.com/  There are other dedicated screen shot programs, but I between the built-in function and Irfanview, I can do all I need so I haven't looked into them. 


Kind regards


Quentin.


On Mon, Nov 7, 2016 at 11:34 PM, David Russell <david.sonofhashem@...> wrote:
Hello NVDA Group,

I am a freelance writer by avocation, and a particular work assignment
asked for a "screen to be printed, e.g. coupon" for a given business."
I assumed this to mean a screen shot. I know how to insert html links,
but is there a similar keyboard shortcut for inserting screen shots?

I am a totally blind user, Windows 7 machine, NVDA and FireFox as
browser. Thanks.

--
David Russell
david.sonofhashem@...
Character consists of what you do on the third and fourth tries.
James A. Michener






--
Quentin Christensen
Training Material Developer
Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

Direct: +61 413 904 383
www.nvaccess.org 
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 


Re: making a program accessible (was spss inaccessibility: absolutely inexcusable)

 

Hi Travis and others:
I'm sorry to hear about your experiences, particularly when it comes to getting developer information. I'll address your concerns on a different thread.
Cheers,
Joseph

----- Original Message -----
From: "Travis Siegel" <tsiegel@softcon.com
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Date sent: Wed, 16 Nov 2016 14:28:55 -0500
Subject: Re: [nvda] making a program accessible (was spss inaccessibility: absolutely inexcusable)

If I wanted to get others to do the work, I wouldn't be asking how to do
the task myself now would I??

Look. I've written jaws scripts before to make things accessible (both
for myself and others). But, I haven't used a windows machine in more
than ten years, and now that I have a new windows machine, I'm finding
the windows world sadly lacking in accessible programs in various
arenas, and despite obstacles being thrown up at every turn, I'm
actually trying to do something about that. Believe me, I'm sorely
tempted to just junk the whole windows as an os for me idea, and go back
to my linux and OSX machines, but I'm trying hard *not* to do that,
because I know I can't be the only person who is frustrated by the whole
windows experience. I'm sure there are some who are perfectly happy with
their windows experience, and to those folks, I say good for you.
Unfortunately, I am not one of those people, and I'd like to at least
attempt to do something about it before throwing in the towel and
abandoning windows (again). So, at least try to give me some credit
here, and when I ask a question about something, it's generally because
I want the answer to that question, not some statement of difficulty, or
pass the buck kind of crap. ok?


Now, with all of that said.

Are there any places I can get information on making programs (already
written programs I should qualify) accessible using NVDA? If not, why
not, and if so, where are they? I have already downloaded the NVDA
source code, and short of combing through all of the source, and
memorizing thousands of lines of code, there has to be some way to learn
what I need to knowin an easy and organized manner.

The following information has no bearing on this discussion other than
in a general way, but I add it just for background information).

When the author of windowbridge died, I contacted his brother, and asked
what was going to be done with windowbridge. After some discussions, I
offered to buy the windowbridge source, and continue development on the
program, just so folks would have choices in the screen reader market.
I'm a strong proponent of choices, no matter what the area of discussion
may be, and I saw (at the time) a real need for another player in the
screen reader market.

Things got screwed up (mostly due to UPS), and while I did receive
*some* of the required materials to continue work on windowbridge, I
never did get the whole development environment, and/or supporting
libraries. As a result, unless I'm willing to rewrite windowbridge from
the ground up, there's nothing I can do with the currently existing
source code. I could take the time to rewrite the pieces I need to
remove dependencies on the libraries and pieces of code I didn't get,
but that likely wouldn't be worth the effort, I could probably write a
screen reader from scratch for less effort.

That was part of the reason I left the windows world, other frustrations
included the gaming community, and how just plain rude they were to
developers, and the fact that apple came out with this shiny new
operating system that was accessible right out of the box for anyone,
and I didn't have to pay extra for my screen reader.

Now, it's been more than ten years since all of that stuff occurred, and
although I'm still very much anchored in the linux/OSX/BSD world, I
figure enough time has passed, that perhaps the windows world isn't
quite as discouraging as it once was, so I'm making another attempt to
help the vi community by helping out where I can, and that appears to be
in making NVDA more accessible to more programs. I'm not a fan of
python, but I'm not opposed to working with it if it will benefit the
blind community as a whole.

Now, with all of that said, if anyone has any suggestions on where I can
find the information I'm after (preferably without digging through
thousands of lines of code) I'd be happy to hear them. If no such
documentation exists, then perhaps I'll work on creating such
information to make it easier for the next person who wants to help.




On 11/16/2016 1:55 PM, Gene wrote:
How much learning and work do you want to do? others will probably
comment on this but there are people in the community who will work on
making programs accessible when requested. But how many there are and
how available their services are, I don't know. I'm sure you can
learn how to do things like script but you might rather look into
having someone do this.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
*From:* Travis Siegel <mailto:tsiegel@softcon.com
*Sent:* Wednesday, November 16, 2016 12:46 PM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] making a program accessible (was spss
inaccessibility: absolutely inexcusable)

It's a disk management program written in C++, but that is
immaterial. The process for making a program accessible with NVDA
should be documented/discussed somewhere, and I want to find that
documentation, so I can make this program accessible whether it be via
scripting, or some other process. Once that's done, I'll more than
likely use the same process (assuming there is such a process) to make
other not accessible programs usable. Perhaps this is the wrong list
to be asking these questions, but I have to start somewhere.



On 11/16/2016 1:12 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:

What sort of base program are we talking about here?

A great many programs (again, depending on age and how widely used)
introduced alternate text to allow graphics of any type to be labeled
and most screen readers rely on that alternate text to tell you what
the graphic you've landed on happens to be.

It's well nigh impossible to tell anything meaningful based on most
icon file names. I'm also trying to envision the sort of program
being discussed, which is almost certainly not web based (or you'd
have scripting support related to browser already in place) but does
present information on the screen. Since icons are mentioned I'd
have to believe a GUI is involved, too.
--
*/Brian/*

*/Here is a test to find out whether your mission in life is
complete. If you're alive, it isn't./*

//~ Lauren Bacall






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Re: making a program accessible (was spss inaccessibility: absolutely inexcusable)

Gene
 

I don't know what you have done and I don't make assumptions.  At times, people on lists ask how things are done and they don't know what is involved.  Please keep such things in mind.  If I knew you already, I wouldn't have answered because I would already have known what you wanted. 
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2016 1:28 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] making a program accessible (was spss inaccessibility: absolutely inexcusable)

If I wanted to get others to do the work, I wouldn't be asking how to do the task myself now would I??

Look.  I've written jaws scripts before to make things accessible (both for myself and others). But, I haven't used a windows machine in more than ten years, and now that I have a new windows machine, I'm finding the windows world sadly lacking in accessible programs in various arenas, and despite obstacles being thrown up at every turn, I'm actually trying to do something about that.  Believe me, I'm sorely tempted to just junk the whole windows as an os for me idea, and go back to my linux and OSX machines, but I'm trying hard *not* to do that, because I know I can't be the only person who is frustrated by the whole windows experience.  I'm sure there are some who are perfectly happy with their windows experience, and to those folks, I say good for you.  Unfortunately, I am not one of those people, and I'd like to at least attempt to do something about it before throwing in the towel and abandoning windows (again).  So, at least try to give me some credit here, and when I ask a question about something, it's generally because I want the answer to that question, not some statement of difficulty, or pass the buck kind of crap. ok?


Now, with all of that said.

Are there any places I can get information on making programs (already written programs I should qualify) accessible using NVDA? If not, why not, and if so, where are they? I have already downloaded the NVDA source code, and short of combing through all of the source, and memorizing thousands of lines of code, there has to be some way to learn what I need to knowin an easy and organized manner.

The following information has no bearing on this discussion other than in a general way, but I add it just for background information).

When the author of windowbridge died, I contacted his brother, and asked what was going to be done with windowbridge.  After some discussions, I offered to buy the windowbridge source, and continue development on the program, just so folks would have choices in the screen reader market.  I'm a strong proponent of choices, no matter what the area of discussion may be, and I saw (at the time) a real need for another player in the screen reader market.

Things got screwed up (mostly due to UPS), and while I did receive *some* of the required materials to continue work on windowbridge, I never did get the whole development environment, and/or supporting libraries.  As a result, unless I'm willing to rewrite windowbridge from the ground up, there's nothing I can do with the currently existing source code.  I could take the time to rewrite the pieces I need to remove dependencies on the libraries and pieces of code I didn't get, but that likely wouldn't be worth the effort, I could probably write a screen reader from scratch for less effort.

That was part of the reason I left the windows world, other frustrations included the gaming community, and how just plain rude they were to developers, and the fact that apple came out with this shiny new operating system that was accessible right out of the box for anyone, and I didn't have to pay extra for my screen reader.

Now, it's been more than ten years since all of that stuff occurred, and although I'm still very much anchored in the linux/OSX/BSD world, I figure enough time has passed, that perhaps the windows world isn't quite as discouraging as it once was, so I'm making another attempt to help the vi community by helping out where I can, and that appears to be in making NVDA more accessible to more programs.  I'm not a fan of python, but I'm not opposed to working with it if it will benefit the blind community as a whole.

Now, with all of that said, if anyone has any suggestions on where I can find the information I'm after (preferably without digging through thousands of lines of code) I'd be happy to hear them.  If no such documentation exists, then perhaps I'll work on creating such information to make it easier for the next person who wants to help.




On 11/16/2016 1:55 PM, Gene wrote:
How much learning and work do you want to do?  others will probably comment on this but there are people in the community who will work on making programs accessible when requested.  But how many there are and how available their services are, I don't know.  I'm sure you can learn how to do things like script but you might rather look into having someone do this.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2016 12:46 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] making a program accessible (was spss inaccessibility: absolutely inexcusable)

It's a disk management program written in C++, but that is immaterial.  The process for making a program accessible with NVDA should be documented/discussed somewhere, and I want to find that documentation, so I can make this program accessible whether it be via scripting, or some other process.  Once that's done, I'll more than likely use the same process (assuming there is such a process) to make other not accessible programs usable.  Perhaps this is the wrong list to be asking these questions, but I have to start somewhere.



On 11/16/2016 1:12 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:

What sort of base program are we talking about here?

A great many programs (again, depending on age and how widely used) introduced alternate text to allow graphics of any type to be labeled and most screen readers rely on that alternate text to tell you what the graphic you've landed on happens to be.

It's well nigh impossible to tell anything meaningful based on most icon file names.  I'm also trying to envision the sort of program being discussed, which is almost certainly not web based (or you'd have scripting support related to browser already in place) but does present information on the screen.  Since icons are mentioned I'd have to believe a GUI is involved, too.
--
Brian

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    ~ Lauren Bacall

    






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Re: making a program accessible (was spss inaccessibility: absolutely inexcusable)

mk360
 

You can see the NVDA development guide, which is located on the NVDA git repository. The guide has examples and other information... also you need to know python.

Regards,
mk.

On Wed, Nov 16, 2016 at 4:28 PM, Travis Siegel <tsiegel@...> wrote:

If I wanted to get others to do the work, I wouldn't be asking how to do the task myself now would I??

Look.  I've written jaws scripts before to make things accessible (both for myself and others). But, I haven't used a windows machine in more than ten years, and now that I have a new windows machine, I'm finding the windows world sadly lacking in accessible programs in various arenas, and despite obstacles being thrown up at every turn, I'm actually trying to do something about that.  Believe me, I'm sorely tempted to just junk the whole windows as an os for me idea, and go back to my linux and OSX machines, but I'm trying hard *not* to do that, because I know I can't be the only person who is frustrated by the whole windows experience.  I'm sure there are some who are perfectly happy with their windows experience, and to those folks, I say good for you.  Unfortunately, I am not one of those people, and I'd like to at least attempt to do something about it before throwing in the towel and abandoning windows (again).  So, at least try to give me some credit here, and when I ask a question about something, it's generally because I want the answer to that question, not some statement of difficulty, or pass the buck kind of crap. ok?


Now, with all of that said.

Are there any places I can get information on making programs (already written programs I should qualify) accessible using NVDA? If not, why not, and if so, where are they? I have already downloaded the NVDA source code, and short of combing through all of the source, and memorizing thousands of lines of code, there has to be some way to learn what I need to knowin an easy and organized manner.

The following information has no bearing on this discussion other than in a general way, but I add it just for background information).

When the author of windowbridge died, I contacted his brother, and asked what was going to be done with windowbridge.  After some discussions, I offered to buy the windowbridge source, and continue development on the program, just so folks would have choices in the screen reader market.  I'm a strong proponent of choices, no matter what the area of discussion may be, and I saw (at the time) a real need for another player in the screen reader market.

Things got screwed up (mostly due to UPS), and while I did receive *some* of the required materials to continue work on windowbridge, I never did get the whole development environment, and/or supporting libraries.  As a result, unless I'm willing to rewrite windowbridge from the ground up, there's nothing I can do with the currently existing source code.  I could take the time to rewrite the pieces I need to remove dependencies on the libraries and pieces of code I didn't get, but that likely wouldn't be worth the effort, I could probably write a screen reader from scratch for less effort.

That was part of the reason I left the windows world, other frustrations included the gaming community, and how just plain rude they were to developers, and the fact that apple came out with this shiny new operating system that was accessible right out of the box for anyone, and I didn't have to pay extra for my screen reader.

Now, it's been more than ten years since all of that stuff occurred, and although I'm still very much anchored in the linux/OSX/BSD world, I figure enough time has passed, that perhaps the windows world isn't quite as discouraging as it once was, so I'm making another attempt to help the vi community by helping out where I can, and that appears to be in making NVDA more accessible to more programs.  I'm not a fan of python, but I'm not opposed to working with it if it will benefit the blind community as a whole.

Now, with all of that said, if anyone has any suggestions on where I can find the information I'm after (preferably without digging through thousands of lines of code) I'd be happy to hear them.  If no such documentation exists, then perhaps I'll work on creating such information to make it easier for the next person who wants to help.




On 11/16/2016 1:55 PM, Gene wrote:
How much learning and work do you want to do?  others will probably comment on this but there are people in the community who will work on making programs accessible when requested.  But how many there are and how available their services are, I don't know.  I'm sure you can learn how to do things like script but you might rather look into having someone do this.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2016 12:46 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] making a program accessible (was spss inaccessibility: absolutely inexcusable)

It's a disk management program written in C++, but that is immaterial.  The process for making a program accessible with NVDA should be documented/discussed somewhere, and I want to find that documentation, so I can make this program accessible whether it be via scripting, or some other process.  Once that's done, I'll more than likely use the same process (assuming there is such a process) to make other not accessible programs usable.  Perhaps this is the wrong list to be asking these questions, but I have to start somewhere.



On 11/16/2016 1:12 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:

What sort of base program are we talking about here?

A great many programs (again, depending on age and how widely used) introduced alternate text to allow graphics of any type to be labeled and most screen readers rely on that alternate text to tell you what the graphic you've landed on happens to be.

It's well nigh impossible to tell anything meaningful based on most icon file names.  I'm also trying to envision the sort of program being discussed, which is almost certainly not web based (or you'd have scripting support related to browser already in place) but does present information on the screen.  Since icons are mentioned I'd have to believe a GUI is involved, too.
--
Brian

Here is a test to find out whether your mission in life is complete.  If you’re alive, it isn’t.

    ~ Lauren Bacall

    






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Re: making a program accessible (was spss inaccessibility: absolutely inexcusable)

Travis Siegel <tsiegel@...>
 

If I wanted to get others to do the work, I wouldn't be asking how to do the task myself now would I??

Look.  I've written jaws scripts before to make things accessible (both for myself and others). But, I haven't used a windows machine in more than ten years, and now that I have a new windows machine, I'm finding the windows world sadly lacking in accessible programs in various arenas, and despite obstacles being thrown up at every turn, I'm actually trying to do something about that.  Believe me, I'm sorely tempted to just junk the whole windows as an os for me idea, and go back to my linux and OSX machines, but I'm trying hard *not* to do that, because I know I can't be the only person who is frustrated by the whole windows experience.  I'm sure there are some who are perfectly happy with their windows experience, and to those folks, I say good for you.  Unfortunately, I am not one of those people, and I'd like to at least attempt to do something about it before throwing in the towel and abandoning windows (again).  So, at least try to give me some credit here, and when I ask a question about something, it's generally because I want the answer to that question, not some statement of difficulty, or pass the buck kind of crap. ok?


Now, with all of that said.

Are there any places I can get information on making programs (already written programs I should qualify) accessible using NVDA? If not, why not, and if so, where are they? I have already downloaded the NVDA source code, and short of combing through all of the source, and memorizing thousands of lines of code, there has to be some way to learn what I need to knowin an easy and organized manner.

The following information has no bearing on this discussion other than in a general way, but I add it just for background information).

When the author of windowbridge died, I contacted his brother, and asked what was going to be done with windowbridge.  After some discussions, I offered to buy the windowbridge source, and continue development on the program, just so folks would have choices in the screen reader market.  I'm a strong proponent of choices, no matter what the area of discussion may be, and I saw (at the time) a real need for another player in the screen reader market.

Things got screwed up (mostly due to UPS), and while I did receive *some* of the required materials to continue work on windowbridge, I never did get the whole development environment, and/or supporting libraries.  As a result, unless I'm willing to rewrite windowbridge from the ground up, there's nothing I can do with the currently existing source code.  I could take the time to rewrite the pieces I need to remove dependencies on the libraries and pieces of code I didn't get, but that likely wouldn't be worth the effort, I could probably write a screen reader from scratch for less effort.

That was part of the reason I left the windows world, other frustrations included the gaming community, and how just plain rude they were to developers, and the fact that apple came out with this shiny new operating system that was accessible right out of the box for anyone, and I didn't have to pay extra for my screen reader.

Now, it's been more than ten years since all of that stuff occurred, and although I'm still very much anchored in the linux/OSX/BSD world, I figure enough time has passed, that perhaps the windows world isn't quite as discouraging as it once was, so I'm making another attempt to help the vi community by helping out where I can, and that appears to be in making NVDA more accessible to more programs.  I'm not a fan of python, but I'm not opposed to working with it if it will benefit the blind community as a whole.

Now, with all of that said, if anyone has any suggestions on where I can find the information I'm after (preferably without digging through thousands of lines of code) I'd be happy to hear them.  If no such documentation exists, then perhaps I'll work on creating such information to make it easier for the next person who wants to help.




On 11/16/2016 1:55 PM, Gene wrote:
How much learning and work do you want to do?  others will probably comment on this but there are people in the community who will work on making programs accessible when requested.  But how many there are and how available their services are, I don't know.  I'm sure you can learn how to do things like script but you might rather look into having someone do this.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2016 12:46 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] making a program accessible (was spss inaccessibility: absolutely inexcusable)

It's a disk management program written in C++, but that is immaterial.  The process for making a program accessible with NVDA should be documented/discussed somewhere, and I want to find that documentation, so I can make this program accessible whether it be via scripting, or some other process.  Once that's done, I'll more than likely use the same process (assuming there is such a process) to make other not accessible programs usable.  Perhaps this is the wrong list to be asking these questions, but I have to start somewhere.



On 11/16/2016 1:12 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:

What sort of base program are we talking about here?

A great many programs (again, depending on age and how widely used) introduced alternate text to allow graphics of any type to be labeled and most screen readers rely on that alternate text to tell you what the graphic you've landed on happens to be.

It's well nigh impossible to tell anything meaningful based on most icon file names.  I'm also trying to envision the sort of program being discussed, which is almost certainly not web based (or you'd have scripting support related to browser already in place) but does present information on the screen.  Since icons are mentioned I'd have to believe a GUI is involved, too.
--
Brian

Here is a test to find out whether your mission in life is complete.  If you’re alive, it isn’t.

    ~ Lauren Bacall

    






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Re: Request: A Good Tutorial On Using NVDA With Outlook 2016

Rémy Ruiz
 

Hi Gene,

Thanks very much.

Now, links works fine.

Cheers since France.

Rémy



Le 16/11/2016 à 20:06, Gene a écrit :
Copy and paste the link into the browser's address bar.  If you can't click on a link and have it work properly that is the next thing to try.  Long links may not work properly when clicked on.
 
The other Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Rémy Ruiz
Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2016 1:00 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Request: A Good Tutorial On Using NVDA With Outlook 2016

Hi Gene,

Thanks but...

Your link is broken...

https://support.office.com/en-us/article/Get-started-using-a-screen-reader-in-Outlook-2016-71b2c119-d8e4-4550-a276-00ee268f4d56


Thanks for another link.
Cheers since France.
Rémy
Le 15/11/2016 à 03:34, Gene New Zealand a écrit :
> Hi
>
>
> I am not sure for one for nvda,but even though this one mentions
> narrator and another screen reader it might help you with the program.
>
>
> I had a very quick look, but guess it would be the same moves for nvda
> users or not far off it. I could be wrong.
>
>
> The link to this page
> is

> https://support.office.com/en-us/article/Get-started-using-a-screen-reader-in-Outlook-2016-71b2c119-d8e4-4550-a276-00ee268f4d56
>
> If i remember right it looks as though it comes off the microsoft site.
>
>
> hope it helps.
>
>
> I am a thunderbird user in Windows 10.
>
>
> I am not sure if it is for the app version or one that comes with
> windows for the outlook tutorial.
>
>
> gene nz
>
>
>
> On 15/11/2016 1:15 PM, Ron Canazzi wrote:
>> Hi Group,
>>
>>
>> I have been using Thunderbird for e-mail for quite a while now--ever
>> since I switched from XP to Windows 7/8/.  Is there any good tutorial
>> for NVDA and Outlook 2016?  I would like to try it out and see if I
>> can use all of its superior advantages with NVDA.  In particular the
>> mail features are of interest to me.
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>





Re: Request: A Good Tutorial On Using NVDA With Outlook 2016

Gene
 

Copy and paste the link into the browser's address bar.  If you can't click on a link and have it work properly that is the next thing to try.  Long links may not work properly when clicked on.
 
The other Gene

----- Original Message -----
From: Rémy Ruiz
Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2016 1:00 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Request: A Good Tutorial On Using NVDA With Outlook 2016

Hi Gene,

Thanks but...

Your link is broken...

https://support.office.com/en-us/article/Get-started-using-a-screen-reader-in-Outlook-2016-71b2c119-d8e4-4550-a276-00ee268f4d56


Thanks for another link.
Cheers since France.
Rémy
Le 15/11/2016 à 03:34, Gene New Zealand a écrit :
> Hi
>
>
> I am not sure for one for nvda,but even though this one mentions
> narrator and another screen reader it might help you with the program.
>
>
> I had a very quick look, but guess it would be the same moves for nvda
> users or not far off it. I could be wrong.
>
>
> The link to this page
> is

> https://support.office.com/en-us/article/Get-started-using-a-screen-reader-in-Outlook-2016-71b2c119-d8e4-4550-a276-00ee268f4d56
>
> If i remember right it looks as though it comes off the microsoft site.
>
>
> hope it helps.
>
>
> I am a thunderbird user in Windows 10.
>
>
> I am not sure if it is for the app version or one that comes with
> windows for the outlook tutorial.
>
>
> gene nz
>
>
>
> On 15/11/2016 1:15 PM, Ron Canazzi wrote:
>> Hi Group,
>>
>>
>> I have been using Thunderbird for e-mail for quite a while now--ever
>> since I switched from XP to Windows 7/8/.  Is there any good tutorial
>> for NVDA and Outlook 2016?  I would like to try it out and see if I
>> can use all of its superior advantages with NVDA.  In particular the
>> mail features are of interest to me.
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>




Re: Request: A Good Tutorial On Using NVDA With Outlook 2016

Rémy Ruiz
 

Hi Gene,

Thanks but...

Your link is broken...

https://support.office.com/en-us/article/Get-started-using-a-screen-reader-in-Outlook-2016-71b2c119-d8e4-4550-a276-00ee268f4d56


Thanks for another link.
Cheers since France.
Rémy

Le 15/11/2016 à 03:34, Gene New Zealand a écrit :
Hi


I am not sure for one for nvda,but even though this one mentions
narrator and another screen reader it might help you with the program.


I had a very quick look, but guess it would be the same moves for nvda
users or not far off it. I could be wrong.


The link to this page
is
https://support.office.com/en-us/article/Get-started-using-a-screen-reader-in-Outlook-2016-71b2c119-d8e4-4550-a276-00ee268f4d56

If i remember right it looks as though it comes off the microsoft site.


hope it helps.


I am a thunderbird user in Windows 10.


I am not sure if it is for the app version or one that comes with
windows for the outlook tutorial.


gene nz



On 15/11/2016 1:15 PM, Ron Canazzi wrote:
Hi Group,


I have been using Thunderbird for e-mail for quite a while now--ever
since I switched from XP to Windows 7/8/. Is there any good tutorial
for NVDA and Outlook 2016? I would like to try it out and see if I
can use all of its superior advantages with NVDA. In particular the
mail features are of interest to me.



opening a message in a new tab in seamonkey

Rosemarie Chavarria
 

Hi, everyone,

Is there a way to open a message in a new tab in seamonkey like you can in thunderbird? I'm just wondering.

Rosemarie


Re: making a program accessible (was spss inaccessibility: absolutely inexcusable)

Gene
 

How much learning and work do you want to do?  others will probably comment on this but there are people in the community who will work on making programs accessible when requested.  But how many there are and how available their services are, I don't know.  I'm sure you can learn how to do things like script but you might rather look into having someone do this.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2016 12:46 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] making a program accessible (was spss inaccessibility: absolutely inexcusable)

It's a disk management program written in C++, but that is immaterial.  The process for making a program accessible with NVDA should be documented/discussed somewhere, and I want to find that documentation, so I can make this program accessible whether it be via scripting, or some other process.  Once that's done, I'll more than likely use the same process (assuming there is such a process) to make other not accessible programs usable.  Perhaps this is the wrong list to be asking these questions, but I have to start somewhere.



On 11/16/2016 1:12 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:

What sort of base program are we talking about here?

A great many programs (again, depending on age and how widely used) introduced alternate text to allow graphics of any type to be labeled and most screen readers rely on that alternate text to tell you what the graphic you've landed on happens to be.

It's well nigh impossible to tell anything meaningful based on most icon file names.  I'm also trying to envision the sort of program being discussed, which is almost certainly not web based (or you'd have scripting support related to browser already in place) but does present information on the screen.  Since icons are mentioned I'd have to believe a GUI is involved, too.
--
Brian

Here is a test to find out whether your mission in life is complete.  If you’re alive, it isn’t.

    ~ Lauren Bacall

    






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Re: spss inaccessibility: absolutely inexcusable

erik burggraaf <erik@...>
 

Hi Brian, I think Freedom Scientific is probably putting the rights of their scriptures and the intellectual property they generate over to 7:18 information directly to users about what is available and what is not. In the context of SPS s, this is a highly corporate package and the work that's been done on it by people in corporate settings is going to have to stay in those companies because the company's themselves are not going to want to let go of it.

Forcing authors of scripts 2278 their information by a contract would be great for users, but it would definitely scare away corporations research institutions and other big money providers. Freedom Scientific is going to go where the money is.

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On November 16, 2016 11:12:51 AM "Brian Vogel" <britechguy@...> wrote:

SPSS (if it's the same SPSS I know of, and it probably is), was originally called the Statistical Package for the Social Sciences, is ancient, and has long since come into common use for number crunching in many disciplines.  That being said, SPSS was developed long before accessibility was on virtually anyone's radar.

I was, for a very long time, under the grossly mistaken impression that screen readers had been developed such that they could make a decent attempt to read virtually anything that might pop up on a screen.  I was recently disabused of that notion when working with a client who was expected to be able to use Interaction Desktop by Interaction Intelligence and a number of custom screen-based, but not web-based, programs developed for the client company.  It became abundantly clear instantly that JAWS (in this case, but it could have been any screen reader, this isn't JAWS bashing) was utterly incapable of interpreting the first thing that was on the screen because the underlying scripting for these applications did not exist.  We take for granted the way screen readers do function with common office suites and web browsers because an untold number of hours have been dedicated to creating the scripting that ships with them to handle these programs.  There is no way that any company can develop scripts "for everything" so the focus will logically be on the things that can benefit the most people in the most settings.   SPSS is absolutely a niche market, writ large.  In the context of the population at large, blind or not, very, very few people will ever touch SPSS.  That would not be a logical place to dedicate a lot of resources to as a result.

The above being said, after my experience with the client I made reference to, I was able to determine that there are several sites that had blind individuals using the software in question and that a significant scripting base was in place already and I believe it was actually done by Freedom Scientific.  What I do not understand is why companies like Freedom Scientific, when they're doing this work, do not have some contractual language in place that allows them to add said scripts to a central repository that they would maintain.   It is insane to keep reinventing the wheel, and that's exactly what happens when it comes to relatively little used commercial software when scripts have to be created, again and again, for each blind user at each site.  I was shocked that Freedom Scientific could not tell me whether any scripts existed or whether JAWS was known to have been used over Interaction Desktop.  Screen readers themselves are niche markets in the grand scheme of things and they would be boosting their respective reputations and really serving an important function of increasing accessibility for niche products if they set themselves up as centralized script repositories, with the proviso that they are not actively maintaining said scripts, just so a baseline would exist to work with when needed.

You can't convince me that SPSS hasn't been scripted, probably hundreds of times now, but where, for what screen reader or screen readers, who knows?
--
Brian

Here is a test to find out whether your mission in life is complete.  If you’re alive, it isn’t.

    ~ Lauren Bacall

    



Re: making a program accessible (was spss inaccessibility: absolutely inexcusable)

 

Hi Travis and others,

I recommend taking the following steps:

1.      Contact IBM (SPSS developer) and give as much feedback as possible.

2.      Ask IBM to contact NV Access about making SPSS screen reader friendly (not just with NVVDa, but with others).

3.      If possible, ask The Documentation Foundation (TDF) and have them contact IBM about how to use JAB and/or IAccessible to make SPSS more accessible.

4.      If the above does not work, then it is time to learn Python programming language and write an app module for SPSS. But just in case things doesn’t work out, learning about Python would help you, as you are not limited to what scripting languages for screen readers provides – learning Python means millions of possibilities are open, including scientific computing, accessible GUI programs, web scraping and so on, not just writing app modules for a Python-based screen reader.

But please try at least steps 1 and 2 and report back to us as to what IBM says. If not, I or someone who can represent NV Access can contact IBM and state a case on your behalf (note that I myself am not an employee of NV Access). Also, as a general rule: before writing scripts for an app, contact app developers first, and then consider writing scripts as one of the last options regardless of whether it’s a website, a desktop app, a universal app and so on.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Travis Siegel
Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2016 10:41 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] making a program accessible (was spss inaccessibility: absolutely inexcusable)

 

I know NVDA doesn't have a label icons feature, that's why I'm asking how/what to do to make this program accessible.  If it entails writing a script, that's fine, but where do I find information on writing scripts for NVDA? If it entails something else, that's fine too, but where do I find said information to accomplish the task.

It doesn't matter what's required, I just need to know what that is, and where to go to get information on said requirements.

 

 

On 11/16/2016 1:06 PM, Gene wrote:

NVDA doesn't have a label icons feature.  I suppose if you knew how to write scripts for NVDA, you could do it but there is no user feature. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2016 11:39 AM

Subject: [nvda] making a program accessible (was spss inaccessibility: absolutely inexcusable)

 

Actually, this thread brings up something I've been wondering about
myself.  I have a program I use that isn't all that accessible with
NVDA.  I don't know the first thing about how to make a program
accessible with NVDA.  How would one go about working to make a program
accessible.  It largely seems to be a matter of making NVDA see various
icons on the screen, and labeling those icons.  The demo of jaws sees
the icons (NVDA does not), though even jaws doesn't know what those
icons are, so with this information in hand, how would one go about
making NVDA see these icons, and provide labels to them so they can be
properly identified?

I have no problem doing the work myself, I just don't know how/what to
do.  There isn't anything in the NVDA manual discussing this topic, and
there probably should be.







This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
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Re: making a program accessible (was spss inaccessibility: absolutely inexcusable)

mk360
 

On Wed, Nov 16, 2016 at 3:41 PM, Travis Siegel <tsiegel@...> wrote:

I know NVDA doesn't have a label icons feature, that's why I'm asking how/what to do to make this program accessible.  If it entails writing a script, that's fine, but where do I find information on writing scripts for NVDA? If it entails something else, that's fine too, but where do I find said information to accomplish the task.

It doesn't matter what's required, I just need to know what that is, and where to go to get information on said requirements.



On 11/16/2016 1:06 PM, Gene wrote:
NVDA doesn't have a label icons feature.  I suppose if you knew how to write scripts for NVDA, you could do it but there is no user feature. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2016 11:39 AM
Subject: [nvda] making a program accessible (was spss inaccessibility: absolutely inexcusable)

Actually, this thread brings up something I've been wondering about
myself.  I have a program I use that isn't all that accessible with
NVDA.  I don't know the first thing about how to make a program
accessible with NVDA.  How would one go about working to make a program
accessible.  It largely seems to be a matter of making NVDA see various
icons on the screen, and labeling those icons.  The demo of jaws sees
the icons (NVDA does not), though even jaws doesn't know what those
icons are, so with this information in hand, how would one go about
making NVDA see these icons, and provide labels to them so they can be
properly identified?

I have no problem doing the work myself, I just don't know how/what to
do.  There isn't anything in the NVDA manual discussing this topic, and
there probably should be.









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Re: making a program accessible (was spss inaccessibility: absolutely inexcusable)

Travis Siegel <tsiegel@...>
 

It's a disk management program written in C++, but that is immaterial.  The process for making a program accessible with NVDA should be documented/discussed somewhere, and I want to find that documentation, so I can make this program accessible whether it be via scripting, or some other process.  Once that's done, I'll more than likely use the same process (assuming there is such a process) to make other not accessible programs usable.  Perhaps this is the wrong list to be asking these questions, but I have to start somewhere.



On 11/16/2016 1:12 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:

What sort of base program are we talking about here?

A great many programs (again, depending on age and how widely used) introduced alternate text to allow graphics of any type to be labeled and most screen readers rely on that alternate text to tell you what the graphic you've landed on happens to be.

It's well nigh impossible to tell anything meaningful based on most icon file names.  I'm also trying to envision the sort of program being discussed, which is almost certainly not web based (or you'd have scripting support related to browser already in place) but does present information on the screen.  Since icons are mentioned I'd have to believe a GUI is involved, too.
--
Brian

Here is a test to find out whether your mission in life is complete.  If you’re alive, it isn’t.

    ~ Lauren Bacall

    






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Re: making a program accessible (was spss inaccessibility: absolutely inexcusable)

Travis Siegel <tsiegel@...>
 

I know NVDA doesn't have a label icons feature, that's why I'm asking how/what to do to make this program accessible.  If it entails writing a script, that's fine, but where do I find information on writing scripts for NVDA? If it entails something else, that's fine too, but where do I find said information to accomplish the task.

It doesn't matter what's required, I just need to know what that is, and where to go to get information on said requirements.



On 11/16/2016 1:06 PM, Gene wrote:
NVDA doesn't have a label icons feature.  I suppose if you knew how to write scripts for NVDA, you could do it but there is no user feature. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2016 11:39 AM
Subject: [nvda] making a program accessible (was spss inaccessibility: absolutely inexcusable)

Actually, this thread brings up something I've been wondering about
myself.  I have a program I use that isn't all that accessible with
NVDA.  I don't know the first thing about how to make a program
accessible with NVDA.  How would one go about working to make a program
accessible.  It largely seems to be a matter of making NVDA see various
icons on the screen, and labeling those icons.  The demo of jaws sees
the icons (NVDA does not), though even jaws doesn't know what those
icons are, so with this information in hand, how would one go about
making NVDA see these icons, and provide labels to them so they can be
properly identified?

I have no problem doing the work myself, I just don't know how/what to
do.  There isn't anything in the NVDA manual discussing this topic, and
there probably should be.









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Re: spss inaccessibility: absolutely inexcusable

Jacques <lists4js@...>
 

Hi Travis

Since I was the one to bring up the topic of Window Bridge, I'm curious as to which parts you remember and which parts you may choose to forget. Having said that, I have no knowledge about your computer skills and cannot possibly comment on it.

You appear to hint on the OSM model, an acronym for off screen model. Although it certainly had its place in some situations, it more often than not also caused absolute garbage to be fed to the user. One should be careful to wish for a screen reader to guess what's on the screen, as it may just lead you up the garden path.

Although some commercial products claim to have done away with this approach, it often is clear, based on the garbage they use for output, that this is not the case.

I guess this is getting a bit off topic in terms of NVDA, so I'll leave it at that.


Jacques

On Wednesday, 16 November 2016 19:49, Travis Siegel wrote:
This is something folks generally don't realize. Jaws is nothing but a
glorified scripting engine. If you deleted all the scripts from jaws,
there would be next to nothing it could do all by itself. This is an
approach I never liked, and I never understood why screen readers didn't
make more of an effort to just read what's on the screen, regardless of
what/where it was. NVDA works hard to accomplish this, and this was
also the approach of windowbridge (hey, I didn't bring it up), It's
always boggled my mind how little the commercial screen readers (with
the exception of windowbridge) could do on their own. I'm strongly of
the opinion that script based screen readers are useless, because if
there is no script, the program can't do anything. If it mad an attempt
to see what was on the screen, at least then you have a fighting chance
to find what you need on the screen, even if it doesn't know what it
is. I never understood the whole scripting approach myself, but some
folks seem to like it, so I guess if it works for them, then more power
to them, but it certainly isn't my choice, I'd much prefer to have a
screen reader that at least makes an attempt to see what's on the
screen, instead of saying, oh well, no script, can't help you.



On 11/16/2016 11:11 AM, Brian Vogel wrote:

SPSS (if it's the same SPSS <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SPSS> I
know of, and it probably is), was originally called the Statistical
Package for the Social Sciences, is ancient, and has long since come
into common use for number crunching in many disciplines. That being
said, SPSS was developed long before accessibility was on virtually
anyone's radar.

I was, for a very long time, under the grossly mistaken impression
that screen readers had been developed such that they could make a
decent attempt to read virtually anything that might pop up on a
screen. I was recently disabused of that notion when working with a
client who was expected to be able to use Interaction Desktop by
Interaction Intelligence and a number of custom screen-based, but not
web-based, programs developed for the client company. It became
abundantly clear instantly that JAWS (in this case, but it could have
been any screen reader, this isn't JAWS bashing) was utterly incapable
of interpreting the first thing that was on the screen because the
underlying scripting for these applications did not exist. We take
for granted the way screen readers do function with common office
suites and web browsers because an untold number of hours have been
dedicated to creating the scripting that ships with them to handle
these programs. There is no way that any company can develop scripts
"for everything" so the focus will logically be on the things that can
benefit the most people in the most settings. SPSS is absolutely a
niche market, writ large. In the context of the population at large,
blind or not, very, very few people will ever touch SPSS. That would
not be a logical place to dedicate a lot of resources to as a result.

The above being said, after my experience with the client I made
reference to, I was able to determine that there are several sites
that had blind individuals using the software in question and that a
significant scripting base was in place already and I believe it was
actually done by Freedom Scientific. What I do not understand is why
companies like Freedom Scientific, when they're doing this work, do
not have some contractual language in place that allows them to add
said scripts to a central repository that they would maintain. It is
insane to keep reinventing the wheel, and that's exactly what happens
when it comes to relatively little used commercial software when
scripts have to be created, again and again, for each blind user at
each site. I was shocked that Freedom Scientific could not tell me
whether any scripts existed or whether JAWS was known to have been
used over Interaction Desktop. Screen readers themselves are niche
markets in the grand scheme of things and they would be boosting their
respective reputations and really serving an important function of
increasing accessibility for niche products if they set themselves up
as centralized script repositories, with the proviso that they are not
actively maintaining said scripts, just so a baseline would exist to
work with when needed.

You can't convince me that SPSS hasn't been scripted, probably
hundreds of times now, but where, for what screen reader or screen
readers, who knows?
--
*/Brian/*

*/Here is a test to find out whether your mission in life is complete.
If you’re alive, it isn’t./*

/ /~ Lauren Bacall





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