Date   

Re: spss inaccessibility: absolutely inexcusable

erik burggraaf <erik@...>
 

Hi Brian, I think Freedom Scientific is probably putting the rights of their scriptures and the intellectual property they generate over to 7:18 information directly to users about what is available and what is not. In the context of SPS s, this is a highly corporate package and the work that's been done on it by people in corporate settings is going to have to stay in those companies because the company's themselves are not going to want to let go of it.

Forcing authors of scripts 2278 their information by a contract would be great for users, but it would definitely scare away corporations research institutions and other big money providers. Freedom Scientific is going to go where the money is.

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On November 16, 2016 11:12:51 AM "Brian Vogel" <britechguy@...> wrote:

SPSS (if it's the same SPSS I know of, and it probably is), was originally called the Statistical Package for the Social Sciences, is ancient, and has long since come into common use for number crunching in many disciplines.  That being said, SPSS was developed long before accessibility was on virtually anyone's radar.

I was, for a very long time, under the grossly mistaken impression that screen readers had been developed such that they could make a decent attempt to read virtually anything that might pop up on a screen.  I was recently disabused of that notion when working with a client who was expected to be able to use Interaction Desktop by Interaction Intelligence and a number of custom screen-based, but not web-based, programs developed for the client company.  It became abundantly clear instantly that JAWS (in this case, but it could have been any screen reader, this isn't JAWS bashing) was utterly incapable of interpreting the first thing that was on the screen because the underlying scripting for these applications did not exist.  We take for granted the way screen readers do function with common office suites and web browsers because an untold number of hours have been dedicated to creating the scripting that ships with them to handle these programs.  There is no way that any company can develop scripts "for everything" so the focus will logically be on the things that can benefit the most people in the most settings.   SPSS is absolutely a niche market, writ large.  In the context of the population at large, blind or not, very, very few people will ever touch SPSS.  That would not be a logical place to dedicate a lot of resources to as a result.

The above being said, after my experience with the client I made reference to, I was able to determine that there are several sites that had blind individuals using the software in question and that a significant scripting base was in place already and I believe it was actually done by Freedom Scientific.  What I do not understand is why companies like Freedom Scientific, when they're doing this work, do not have some contractual language in place that allows them to add said scripts to a central repository that they would maintain.   It is insane to keep reinventing the wheel, and that's exactly what happens when it comes to relatively little used commercial software when scripts have to be created, again and again, for each blind user at each site.  I was shocked that Freedom Scientific could not tell me whether any scripts existed or whether JAWS was known to have been used over Interaction Desktop.  Screen readers themselves are niche markets in the grand scheme of things and they would be boosting their respective reputations and really serving an important function of increasing accessibility for niche products if they set themselves up as centralized script repositories, with the proviso that they are not actively maintaining said scripts, just so a baseline would exist to work with when needed.

You can't convince me that SPSS hasn't been scripted, probably hundreds of times now, but where, for what screen reader or screen readers, who knows?
--
Brian

Here is a test to find out whether your mission in life is complete.  If you’re alive, it isn’t.

    ~ Lauren Bacall

    



Re: making a program accessible (was spss inaccessibility: absolutely inexcusable)

 

Hi Travis and others,

I recommend taking the following steps:

1.      Contact IBM (SPSS developer) and give as much feedback as possible.

2.      Ask IBM to contact NV Access about making SPSS screen reader friendly (not just with NVVDa, but with others).

3.      If possible, ask The Documentation Foundation (TDF) and have them contact IBM about how to use JAB and/or IAccessible to make SPSS more accessible.

4.      If the above does not work, then it is time to learn Python programming language and write an app module for SPSS. But just in case things doesn’t work out, learning about Python would help you, as you are not limited to what scripting languages for screen readers provides – learning Python means millions of possibilities are open, including scientific computing, accessible GUI programs, web scraping and so on, not just writing app modules for a Python-based screen reader.

But please try at least steps 1 and 2 and report back to us as to what IBM says. If not, I or someone who can represent NV Access can contact IBM and state a case on your behalf (note that I myself am not an employee of NV Access). Also, as a general rule: before writing scripts for an app, contact app developers first, and then consider writing scripts as one of the last options regardless of whether it’s a website, a desktop app, a universal app and so on.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Travis Siegel
Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2016 10:41 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] making a program accessible (was spss inaccessibility: absolutely inexcusable)

 

I know NVDA doesn't have a label icons feature, that's why I'm asking how/what to do to make this program accessible.  If it entails writing a script, that's fine, but where do I find information on writing scripts for NVDA? If it entails something else, that's fine too, but where do I find said information to accomplish the task.

It doesn't matter what's required, I just need to know what that is, and where to go to get information on said requirements.

 

 

On 11/16/2016 1:06 PM, Gene wrote:

NVDA doesn't have a label icons feature.  I suppose if you knew how to write scripts for NVDA, you could do it but there is no user feature. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2016 11:39 AM

Subject: [nvda] making a program accessible (was spss inaccessibility: absolutely inexcusable)

 

Actually, this thread brings up something I've been wondering about
myself.  I have a program I use that isn't all that accessible with
NVDA.  I don't know the first thing about how to make a program
accessible with NVDA.  How would one go about working to make a program
accessible.  It largely seems to be a matter of making NVDA see various
icons on the screen, and labeling those icons.  The demo of jaws sees
the icons (NVDA does not), though even jaws doesn't know what those
icons are, so with this information in hand, how would one go about
making NVDA see these icons, and provide labels to them so they can be
properly identified?

I have no problem doing the work myself, I just don't know how/what to
do.  There isn't anything in the NVDA manual discussing this topic, and
there probably should be.







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Re: making a program accessible (was spss inaccessibility: absolutely inexcusable)

mk360
 

On Wed, Nov 16, 2016 at 3:41 PM, Travis Siegel <tsiegel@...> wrote:

I know NVDA doesn't have a label icons feature, that's why I'm asking how/what to do to make this program accessible.  If it entails writing a script, that's fine, but where do I find information on writing scripts for NVDA? If it entails something else, that's fine too, but where do I find said information to accomplish the task.

It doesn't matter what's required, I just need to know what that is, and where to go to get information on said requirements.



On 11/16/2016 1:06 PM, Gene wrote:
NVDA doesn't have a label icons feature.  I suppose if you knew how to write scripts for NVDA, you could do it but there is no user feature. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2016 11:39 AM
Subject: [nvda] making a program accessible (was spss inaccessibility: absolutely inexcusable)

Actually, this thread brings up something I've been wondering about
myself.  I have a program I use that isn't all that accessible with
NVDA.  I don't know the first thing about how to make a program
accessible with NVDA.  How would one go about working to make a program
accessible.  It largely seems to be a matter of making NVDA see various
icons on the screen, and labeling those icons.  The demo of jaws sees
the icons (NVDA does not), though even jaws doesn't know what those
icons are, so with this information in hand, how would one go about
making NVDA see these icons, and provide labels to them so they can be
properly identified?

I have no problem doing the work myself, I just don't know how/what to
do.  There isn't anything in the NVDA manual discussing this topic, and
there probably should be.









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Re: making a program accessible (was spss inaccessibility: absolutely inexcusable)

Travis Siegel <tsiegel@...>
 

It's a disk management program written in C++, but that is immaterial.  The process for making a program accessible with NVDA should be documented/discussed somewhere, and I want to find that documentation, so I can make this program accessible whether it be via scripting, or some other process.  Once that's done, I'll more than likely use the same process (assuming there is such a process) to make other not accessible programs usable.  Perhaps this is the wrong list to be asking these questions, but I have to start somewhere.



On 11/16/2016 1:12 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:

What sort of base program are we talking about here?

A great many programs (again, depending on age and how widely used) introduced alternate text to allow graphics of any type to be labeled and most screen readers rely on that alternate text to tell you what the graphic you've landed on happens to be.

It's well nigh impossible to tell anything meaningful based on most icon file names.  I'm also trying to envision the sort of program being discussed, which is almost certainly not web based (or you'd have scripting support related to browser already in place) but does present information on the screen.  Since icons are mentioned I'd have to believe a GUI is involved, too.
--
Brian

Here is a test to find out whether your mission in life is complete.  If you’re alive, it isn’t.

    ~ Lauren Bacall

    






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Re: making a program accessible (was spss inaccessibility: absolutely inexcusable)

Travis Siegel <tsiegel@...>
 

I know NVDA doesn't have a label icons feature, that's why I'm asking how/what to do to make this program accessible.  If it entails writing a script, that's fine, but where do I find information on writing scripts for NVDA? If it entails something else, that's fine too, but where do I find said information to accomplish the task.

It doesn't matter what's required, I just need to know what that is, and where to go to get information on said requirements.



On 11/16/2016 1:06 PM, Gene wrote:
NVDA doesn't have a label icons feature.  I suppose if you knew how to write scripts for NVDA, you could do it but there is no user feature. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2016 11:39 AM
Subject: [nvda] making a program accessible (was spss inaccessibility: absolutely inexcusable)

Actually, this thread brings up something I've been wondering about
myself.  I have a program I use that isn't all that accessible with
NVDA.  I don't know the first thing about how to make a program
accessible with NVDA.  How would one go about working to make a program
accessible.  It largely seems to be a matter of making NVDA see various
icons on the screen, and labeling those icons.  The demo of jaws sees
the icons (NVDA does not), though even jaws doesn't know what those
icons are, so with this information in hand, how would one go about
making NVDA see these icons, and provide labels to them so they can be
properly identified?

I have no problem doing the work myself, I just don't know how/what to
do.  There isn't anything in the NVDA manual discussing this topic, and
there probably should be.









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Re: spss inaccessibility: absolutely inexcusable

Jacques <lists4js@...>
 

Hi Travis

Since I was the one to bring up the topic of Window Bridge, I'm curious as to which parts you remember and which parts you may choose to forget. Having said that, I have no knowledge about your computer skills and cannot possibly comment on it.

You appear to hint on the OSM model, an acronym for off screen model. Although it certainly had its place in some situations, it more often than not also caused absolute garbage to be fed to the user. One should be careful to wish for a screen reader to guess what's on the screen, as it may just lead you up the garden path.

Although some commercial products claim to have done away with this approach, it often is clear, based on the garbage they use for output, that this is not the case.

I guess this is getting a bit off topic in terms of NVDA, so I'll leave it at that.


Jacques

On Wednesday, 16 November 2016 19:49, Travis Siegel wrote:
This is something folks generally don't realize. Jaws is nothing but a
glorified scripting engine. If you deleted all the scripts from jaws,
there would be next to nothing it could do all by itself. This is an
approach I never liked, and I never understood why screen readers didn't
make more of an effort to just read what's on the screen, regardless of
what/where it was. NVDA works hard to accomplish this, and this was
also the approach of windowbridge (hey, I didn't bring it up), It's
always boggled my mind how little the commercial screen readers (with
the exception of windowbridge) could do on their own. I'm strongly of
the opinion that script based screen readers are useless, because if
there is no script, the program can't do anything. If it mad an attempt
to see what was on the screen, at least then you have a fighting chance
to find what you need on the screen, even if it doesn't know what it
is. I never understood the whole scripting approach myself, but some
folks seem to like it, so I guess if it works for them, then more power
to them, but it certainly isn't my choice, I'd much prefer to have a
screen reader that at least makes an attempt to see what's on the
screen, instead of saying, oh well, no script, can't help you.



On 11/16/2016 11:11 AM, Brian Vogel wrote:

SPSS (if it's the same SPSS <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SPSS> I
know of, and it probably is), was originally called the Statistical
Package for the Social Sciences, is ancient, and has long since come
into common use for number crunching in many disciplines. That being
said, SPSS was developed long before accessibility was on virtually
anyone's radar.

I was, for a very long time, under the grossly mistaken impression
that screen readers had been developed such that they could make a
decent attempt to read virtually anything that might pop up on a
screen. I was recently disabused of that notion when working with a
client who was expected to be able to use Interaction Desktop by
Interaction Intelligence and a number of custom screen-based, but not
web-based, programs developed for the client company. It became
abundantly clear instantly that JAWS (in this case, but it could have
been any screen reader, this isn't JAWS bashing) was utterly incapable
of interpreting the first thing that was on the screen because the
underlying scripting for these applications did not exist. We take
for granted the way screen readers do function with common office
suites and web browsers because an untold number of hours have been
dedicated to creating the scripting that ships with them to handle
these programs. There is no way that any company can develop scripts
"for everything" so the focus will logically be on the things that can
benefit the most people in the most settings. SPSS is absolutely a
niche market, writ large. In the context of the population at large,
blind or not, very, very few people will ever touch SPSS. That would
not be a logical place to dedicate a lot of resources to as a result.

The above being said, after my experience with the client I made
reference to, I was able to determine that there are several sites
that had blind individuals using the software in question and that a
significant scripting base was in place already and I believe it was
actually done by Freedom Scientific. What I do not understand is why
companies like Freedom Scientific, when they're doing this work, do
not have some contractual language in place that allows them to add
said scripts to a central repository that they would maintain. It is
insane to keep reinventing the wheel, and that's exactly what happens
when it comes to relatively little used commercial software when
scripts have to be created, again and again, for each blind user at
each site. I was shocked that Freedom Scientific could not tell me
whether any scripts existed or whether JAWS was known to have been
used over Interaction Desktop. Screen readers themselves are niche
markets in the grand scheme of things and they would be boosting their
respective reputations and really serving an important function of
increasing accessibility for niche products if they set themselves up
as centralized script repositories, with the proviso that they are not
actively maintaining said scripts, just so a baseline would exist to
work with when needed.

You can't convince me that SPSS hasn't been scripted, probably
hundreds of times now, but where, for what screen reader or screen
readers, who knows?
--
*/Brian/*

*/Here is a test to find out whether your mission in life is complete.
If you’re alive, it isn’t./*

/ /~ Lauren Bacall





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Re: making a program accessible (was spss inaccessibility: absolutely inexcusable)

 

I doubt that Travis is discussing SPSS or he wouldn't have spun off a separate thread.  I'm curious to know what he is talking about (and if I'm incorrect, that happens).
--
Brian

Here is a test to find out whether your mission in life is complete.  If you’re alive, it isn’t.

    ~ Lauren Bacall

    



Re: spss inaccessibility: absolutely inexcusable

Gene
 

NVDA uses plenty of scripts.  you just don't know it because the scripts are not exposed to the user in NVDA or discussed often.  Any modern screen-reader relies heavily on scripts. 
 
A screen-reader can't just read what is on screen.  How does it know what order to read material?  If a certain line of text needs to be read when it comes up, how is the screen-reader to know when to do so?  What if five or ten lines of text come up under certain conditions but the blind user needs to hear one specific line.  Without scripting, how is the screen-reader supposed to know what to read? 
 
There was a screen-reader years ago, ASAW, that largely relied on artificial intellligence and programming to read what is on the screen.  it worked reasonably well but there were programs in which it read nothing when it should have read something to read something.  Also, those were simpler times.  The program worked with Windows 3.1 and Windows 95.  I don't know if it could have been made to work nearly as well in today's more compplex environment.  And as I said, it had some problems, though I dohn't know if they could have been ironed out with further development. 
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2016 11:49 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] spss inaccessibility: absolutely inexcusable

This is something folks generally don't realize.  Jaws is nothing but a glorified scripting engine.  If you deleted all the scripts from jaws, there would be next to nothing it could do all by itself.  This is an approach I never liked, and I never understood why screen readers didn't make more of an effort to just read what's on the screen, regardless of what/where it was.  NVDA works hard to accomplish this, and this was also the approach of windowbridge (hey, I didn't bring it up), It's always boggled my mind how little the commercial screen readers (with the exception of windowbridge) could do on their own.  I'm strongly of the opinion that script based screen readers are useless, because if there is no script, the program can't do anything.  If it mad an attempt to see what was on the screen, at least then you have a fighting chance to find what you need on the screen, even if it doesn't know what it is.  I never understood the whole scripting approach myself, but some folks seem to like it, so I guess if it works for them, then more power to them, but it certainly isn't my choice, I'd much prefer to have a screen reader that at least makes an attempt to see what's on the screen, instead of saying, oh well, no script, can't help you.



On 11/16/2016 11:11 AM, Brian Vogel wrote:

SPSS (if it's the same SPSS I know of, and it probably is), was originally called the Statistical Package for the Social Sciences, is ancient, and has long since come into common use for number crunching in many disciplines.  That being said, SPSS was developed long before accessibility was on virtually anyone's radar.

I was, for a very long time, under the grossly mistaken impression that screen readers had been developed such that they could make a decent attempt to read virtually anything that might pop up on a screen.  I was recently disabused of that notion when working with a client who was expected to be able to use Interaction Desktop by Interaction Intelligence and a number of custom screen-based, but not web-based, programs developed for the client company.  It became abundantly clear instantly that JAWS (in this case, but it could have been any screen reader, this isn't JAWS bashing) was utterly incapable of interpreting the first thing that was on the screen because the underlying scripting for these applications did not exist.  We take for granted the way screen readers do function with common office suites and web browsers because an untold number of hours have been dedicated to creating the scripting that ships with them to handle these programs.  There is no way that any company can develop scripts "for everything" so the focus will logically be on the things that can benefit the most people in the most settings.   SPSS is absolutely a niche market, writ large.  In the context of the population at large, blind or not, very, very few people will ever touch SPSS.  That would not be a logical place to dedicate a lot of resources to as a result.

The above being said, after my experience with the client I made reference to, I was able to determine that there are several sites that had blind individuals using the software in question and that a significant scripting base was in place already and I believe it was actually done by Freedom Scientific.  What I do not understand is why companies like Freedom Scientific, when they're doing this work, do not have some contractual language in place that allows them to add said scripts to a central repository that they would maintain.   It is insane to keep reinventing the wheel, and that's exactly what happens when it comes to relatively little used commercial software when scripts have to be created, again and again, for each blind user at each site.  I was shocked that Freedom Scientific could not tell me whether any scripts existed or whether JAWS was known to have been used over Interaction Desktop.  Screen readers themselves are niche markets in the grand scheme of things and they would be boosting their respective reputations and really serving an important function of increasing accessibility for niche products if they set themselves up as centralized script repositories, with the proviso that they are not actively maintaining said scripts, just so a baseline would exist to work with when needed.

You can't convince me that SPSS hasn't been scripted, probably hundreds of times now, but where, for what screen reader or screen readers, who knows?
--
Brian

Here is a test to find out whether your mission in life is complete.  If you’re alive, it isn’t.

    ~ Lauren Bacall

    






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Re: spss inaccessibility: absolutely inexcusable

 

On Wed, Nov 16, 2016 at 10:06 am, enes sarıbaş wrote:
though 20 years old, it is updated regularly. Also, jaws works perfectly I mean perfectly! with it. I would asume the jaws mode would help nvda access spss better? In the install, it asks if you want to enable jaws mode.

 It's more than 20 years old, since I was using it when I was in undergraduate school in the early 1980s.

I would certainly try enabling JAWS mode if it's not enabled since screen readers in general latch on to a lot of the same mechanisms that lie "under the hood."

But, back to my original point:   Very few people, period, as part of the population use SPSS, period.  Blind or visually impaired individuals who are also SPSS users are a tiny minority of a tiny minority.  Decisions about where accessibility resources are to be directed have to be made.  Apparently someone made the decision that SPSS should be scripted for JAWS at some point, and heaven knows why.  Were I a screen reader developer or scripter asking, "What should my next project be?," there is an almost zero probability that I'd target SPSS for entirely legitimate reasons.   This is a matter of the most benefit for the most people.  It's that simple.  And the following is not aimed at you, specifically, but is a general observation:  It's worth remembering that it's not all about you.
--
Brian

Here is a test to find out whether your mission in life is complete.  If you’re alive, it isn’t.

    ~ Lauren Bacall

    



Re: firefox 50 and nvda 2016.3

Rui Fontes
 

I am using the Nex version of NVDA with Firefox 50.

The only change I nottice is the address bar changing from combobox to list when we insert or delete a character, but I don't see any inaccessibility in that...

Rui

-----Mensagem Original-----
De: Rosemarie Chavarria
Data: 16 de novembro de 2016 17:24
Para: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Assunto: Re: [nvda] firefox 50 and nvda 2016.3

I hope it'll be fixed in the next version of NVDA.

On 11/16/2016 2:14 AM, Michel Such wrote:
Hi,


Running a Next version of NVDA I don't get the problem.

I think this will be fixed in 2016.4, there is something about this in the changelog.

So, if you can, try a Master or Next version of NVDA and see if it works for you;


Michel SUCH

michel.such@free.fr
Skype : michel.such
Twitter : @SuchMichel

Le 2016-11-16 à 11:04, Brian's Mail list account a écrit :

I have a suspicion its themulti processor code slowly being rolled out in Firefox.
Left hand not knowing what right hand is doing kind of problem!
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Rosemarie Chavarria" <knitqueen2007@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2016 6:53 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] firefox 50 and nvda 2016.3


Hi, Shaun,


I'm having a problem with firefox too. I'll try to type a web address and either firefox loses focus or NVDA is sluggish. Older versions of firefox didn't have this problem.


Rosemarie




On 11/15/2016 9:47 PM, Shaun Everiss wrote:
Hi.
Well Just found the latest 50x version of firefox on the system.
It works ok enough but I have noticed that there are some focus issues.
In the address bar, for example I type an address www.twitter.com/username.
When I delete one letter from the end of the address it maybe ok then nvda will start quoting the entire url out minus the deleted content.
If I left arrow I then get navigation toolbar address bar and search then the address so its losing focus, I can work round it by simple highlighting the particular section and killing it but ff likes to loose focus in some sites and forms and then if I push a key get it back again.
FF still works, but if this continues I am going to have to find out exactly how to turn off autoupdate and downgrade to 49.02 which still works.








Re: spss inaccessibility: absolutely inexcusable

Rui Fontes
 

Yes, SPSS is accessible with Jaws, but I think only with Jaws...

I don't know if they use a JFW API or not...

Rui


-----Mensagem Original-----
De: enes sarıbaş
Data: 16 de novembro de 2016 18:06
Para: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Assunto: Re: [nvda] spss inaccessibility: absolutely inexcusable

hi,

though 20 years old, it is updated regularly. Also, jaws works
perfectly I mean perfectly! with it. I would asume the jaws mode would
help nvda access spss better? In the install, it asks if you want to
enable jaws mode.

On 11/16/2016 4:25 PM, erik burggraaf wrote:
Why is this inexcusible? SPSS is at least 20 years old, probably more. It has several iterations, including the ability to build custom web apps for using spss databases. It's a monstrously expensive proprietary institutional software made by people with very little demonstrated interest in including the blind community.
Only part of the support we enjoy in N vda is developer direct. Items like office and adobe support came to us sponsored by microsoft and adobe. Other features came from third party developers , or by funding from private individuals. The NVDA Remote add-on for example of one such project.

There's a reason why freedom scientific charged thousands of dollars. They carried the weight of the accessibility world on their shoulders, and despite what you may think, they were very unsteady on their feet most of the time. Still, as you say, they often got the job done.

Using NVDA allows you to take charge of your own accessibility in a manner that jaws never did. If you paid top dollar for jaws and found that it didn't meet a specific need, you filed a report and prayed support would come around in a year or two or three after you paid a little more. Meanwhile, maybe some one with your exact issue paid extravigant amounts of money to a script developer to make jaws do what you need it to do, but the development work belonged to the corporate entity who developed it, and they're not making any information about it available because they don't think they can make money from it, and they don't want other companies duplicating their work for nothing. Hooray for old paradigm corporate accessibility.

With NVDA, you can leverage the power of a huge and highly reputible open source community. In stead of making this all about your acceptence and your outrage, why not take charge of the issue? Network with other blind students and professionals who use SPSS. Network with federally funded institutions who use SPSS. Bring some private backing to java or whoever makes the thing and ask for corporate support to make SPSS compatible with nvda, either by upgrades to the software itself, enhanced NVDA support, or a combination of the two. If you approach people the right way, work hard, and make the right connections, you can make a project like this happen much faster in the NVDA system than you could waiting for freedom scientific to build and maintain what you need.

I'm sorry it didn't work out for you right away, but NVDA is your screen reader. You decide what it supports and what not. If there is anything we can do to help you get the support you need, I'm sure we will be appy to help, but you'd better begin by accepting the situation as is if you want to go forward.

Best,

Erik

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On November 16, 2016 5:52:19 AM enes sarıbaş <enes.saribas@gmail.com> wrote:

hi,

I got spss to be slightly more accessible by enabling the java access
bridge. However, nvda cannot read any of the controls. The log shows a
windows access violation error. I find this to be absolutely
unacceptable that nvda doesn't support such an important program. The
same program works flawlessly with jaws.







Re: making a program accessible (was spss inaccessibility: absolutely inexcusable)

enes sarıbaş
 

hi,

spss is java based.


On 11/16/2016 9:12 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:

What sort of base program are we talking about here?

A great many programs (again, depending on age and how widely used) introduced alternate text to allow graphics of any type to be labeled and most screen readers rely on that alternate text to tell you what the graphic you've landed on happens to be.

It's well nigh impossible to tell anything meaningful based on most icon file names.  I'm also trying to envision the sort of program being discussed, which is almost certainly not web based (or you'd have scripting support related to browser already in place) but does present information on the screen.  Since icons are mentioned I'd have to believe a GUI is involved, too.
--
Brian

Here is a test to find out whether your mission in life is complete.  If you’re alive, it isn’t.

    ~ Lauren Bacall

    




Re: making a program accessible (was spss inaccessibility: absolutely inexcusable)

 

What sort of base program are we talking about here?

A great many programs (again, depending on age and how widely used) introduced alternate text to allow graphics of any type to be labeled and most screen readers rely on that alternate text to tell you what the graphic you've landed on happens to be.

It's well nigh impossible to tell anything meaningful based on most icon file names.  I'm also trying to envision the sort of program being discussed, which is almost certainly not web based (or you'd have scripting support related to browser already in place) but does present information on the screen.  Since icons are mentioned I'd have to believe a GUI is involved, too.
--
Brian

Here is a test to find out whether your mission in life is complete.  If you’re alive, it isn’t.

    ~ Lauren Bacall

    



Re: spss inaccessibility: absolutely inexcusable

enes sarıbaş
 

hi,

All my complaints on this matter are 100% justified. And also, I am not a nvda novice. I tried object nav and nvda cannot access any elements in the spss window. Every movement made in the spss window generates an error tone for each element encountered.

On 11/16/2016 4:44 PM, Jacques wrote:
I usually don't like sending "I agree" messages to a mailing list, but this one will have to be an exception. I fully agree with Erik, it's a pity that some people's talents are limited to complaining.

If the commercial screen readers were so great, those thinking so should stick to it and leave the NVDA devs and contributors to make a great product even greater.

I've been around the block a few times, since the old Window Bridge days, and everything and anything in between, always seeking better ways to get the job done. NVDA is the screen reader I exclusively use now. Folks should read the user guide and explore the wonder of the object navigator. It has often enough got me out of a sticky situation, yes, also where the commercial products failed.

Off my soap box.

A good day to all.


Jacques

On Wednesday, 16 November 2016 15:25, Erik burggraaf wrote:
Why is this inexcusible? SPSS is at least 20 years old, probably more.
It has several iterations, including the ability to build custom web
apps for using spss databases. It's a monstrously expensive proprietary
institutional software made by people with very little demonstrated
interest in including the blind community.
Only part of the support we enjoy in N vda is developer direct. Items
like office and adobe support came to us sponsored by microsoft and
adobe. Other features came from third party developers , or by funding
from private individuals. The NVDA Remote add-on for example of one
such project.

There's a reason why freedom scientific charged thousands of dollars.
They carried the weight of the accessibility world on their shoulders,
and despite what you may think, they were very unsteady on their feet
most of the time. Still, as you say, they often got the job done.

Using NVDA allows you to take charge of your own accessibility in a
manner that jaws never did. If you paid top dollar for jaws and found
that it didn't meet a specific need, you filed a report and prayed
support would come around in a year or two or three after you paid a
little more. Meanwhile, maybe some one with your exact issue paid
extravigant amounts of money to a script developer to make jaws do what
you need it to do, but the development work belonged to the corporate
entity who developed it, and they're not making any information about it
available because they don't think they can make money from it, and they
don't want other companies duplicating their work for nothing. Hooray
for old paradigm corporate accessibility.

With NVDA, you can leverage the power of a huge and highly reputible
open source community. In stead of making this all about your
acceptence and your outrage, why not take charge of the issue? Network
with other blind students and professionals who use SPSS. Network with
federally funded institutions who use SPSS. Bring some private backing
to java or whoever makes the thing and ask for corporate support to make
SPSS compatible with nvda, either by upgrades to the software itself,
enhanced NVDA support, or a combination of the two. If you approach
people the right way, work hard, and make the right connections, you can
make a project like this happen much faster in the NVDA system than you
could waiting for freedom scientific to build and maintain what you need.

I'm sorry it didn't work out for you right away, but NVDA is your screen
reader. You decide what it supports and what not. If there is anything
we can do to help you get the support you need, I'm sure we will be appy
to help, but you'd better begin by accepting the situation as is if you
want to go forward.

Best,

Erik

Sent with AquaMail for Android
http://www.aqua-mail.com


On November 16, 2016 5:52:19 AM enes sarıbaş <enes.saribas@gmail.com>
wrote:

hi,

I got spss to be slightly more accessible by enabling the java access
bridge. However, nvda cannot read any of the controls. The log shows a
windows access violation error. I find this to be absolutely
unacceptable that nvda doesn't support such an important program. The
same program works flawlessly with jaws.








Re: spss inaccessibility: absolutely inexcusable

enes sarıbaş
 

hi,

though 20 years old, it is updated regularly. Also, jaws works perfectly I mean perfectly! with it. I would asume the jaws mode would help nvda access spss better? In the install, it asks if you want to enable jaws mode.

On 11/16/2016 4:25 PM, erik burggraaf wrote:
Why is this inexcusible? SPSS is at least 20 years old, probably more. It has several iterations, including the ability to build custom web apps for using spss databases. It's a monstrously expensive proprietary institutional software made by people with very little demonstrated interest in including the blind community.
Only part of the support we enjoy in N vda is developer direct. Items like office and adobe support came to us sponsored by microsoft and adobe. Other features came from third party developers , or by funding from private individuals. The NVDA Remote add-on for example of one such project.

There's a reason why freedom scientific charged thousands of dollars. They carried the weight of the accessibility world on their shoulders, and despite what you may think, they were very unsteady on their feet most of the time. Still, as you say, they often got the job done.

Using NVDA allows you to take charge of your own accessibility in a manner that jaws never did. If you paid top dollar for jaws and found that it didn't meet a specific need, you filed a report and prayed support would come around in a year or two or three after you paid a little more. Meanwhile, maybe some one with your exact issue paid extravigant amounts of money to a script developer to make jaws do what you need it to do, but the development work belonged to the corporate entity who developed it, and they're not making any information about it available because they don't think they can make money from it, and they don't want other companies duplicating their work for nothing. Hooray for old paradigm corporate accessibility.

With NVDA, you can leverage the power of a huge and highly reputible open source community. In stead of making this all about your acceptence and your outrage, why not take charge of the issue? Network with other blind students and professionals who use SPSS. Network with federally funded institutions who use SPSS. Bring some private backing to java or whoever makes the thing and ask for corporate support to make SPSS compatible with nvda, either by upgrades to the software itself, enhanced NVDA support, or a combination of the two. If you approach people the right way, work hard, and make the right connections, you can make a project like this happen much faster in the NVDA system than you could waiting for freedom scientific to build and maintain what you need.

I'm sorry it didn't work out for you right away, but NVDA is your screen reader. You decide what it supports and what not. If there is anything we can do to help you get the support you need, I'm sure we will be appy to help, but you'd better begin by accepting the situation as is if you want to go forward.

Best,

Erik

Sent with AquaMail for Android
http://www.aqua-mail.com


On November 16, 2016 5:52:19 AM enes sarıbaş <enes.saribas@gmail.com> wrote:

hi,

I got spss to be slightly more accessible by enabling the java access
bridge. However, nvda cannot read any of the controls. The log shows a
windows access violation error. I find this to be absolutely
unacceptable that nvda doesn't support such an important program. The
same program works flawlessly with jaws.






Re: making a program accessible (was spss inaccessibility: absolutely inexcusable)

Gene
 

NVDA doesn't have a label icons feature.  I suppose if you knew how to write scripts for NVDA, you could do it but there is no user feature. 
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2016 11:39 AM
Subject: [nvda] making a program accessible (was spss inaccessibility: absolutely inexcusable)

Actually, this thread brings up something I've been wondering about
myself.  I have a program I use that isn't all that accessible with
NVDA.  I don't know the first thing about how to make a program
accessible with NVDA.  How would one go about working to make a program
accessible.  It largely seems to be a matter of making NVDA see various
icons on the screen, and labeling those icons.  The demo of jaws sees
the icons (NVDA does not), though even jaws doesn't know what those
icons are, so with this information in hand, how would one go about
making NVDA see these icons, and provide labels to them so they can be
properly identified?

I have no problem doing the work myself, I just don't know how/what to
do.  There isn't anything in the NVDA manual discussing this topic, and
there probably should be.






Re: spss inaccessibility: absolutely inexcusable

enes sarıbaş
 

hi,

a program used for statistics in the social sciences.

On 11/16/2016 2:58 PM, brennenkinch@gmail.com wrote:
What is this program i have never hurd of it befor

Sent from my iPhone

On Nov 16, 2016, at 5:51 AM, enes sarıbaş <enes.saribas@gmail.com> wrote:

hi,

I got spss to be slightly more accessible by enabling the java access bridge. However, nvda cannot read any of the controls. The log shows a windows access violation error. I find this to be absolutely unacceptable that nvda doesn't support such an important program. The same program works flawlessly with jaws.




Re: spss inaccessibility: absolutely inexcusable

Travis Siegel <tsiegel@...>
 

This is something folks generally don't realize.  Jaws is nothing but a glorified scripting engine.  If you deleted all the scripts from jaws, there would be next to nothing it could do all by itself.  This is an approach I never liked, and I never understood why screen readers didn't make more of an effort to just read what's on the screen, regardless of what/where it was.  NVDA works hard to accomplish this, and this was also the approach of windowbridge (hey, I didn't bring it up), It's always boggled my mind how little the commercial screen readers (with the exception of windowbridge) could do on their own.  I'm strongly of the opinion that script based screen readers are useless, because if there is no script, the program can't do anything.  If it mad an attempt to see what was on the screen, at least then you have a fighting chance to find what you need on the screen, even if it doesn't know what it is.  I never understood the whole scripting approach myself, but some folks seem to like it, so I guess if it works for them, then more power to them, but it certainly isn't my choice, I'd much prefer to have a screen reader that at least makes an attempt to see what's on the screen, instead of saying, oh well, no script, can't help you.



On 11/16/2016 11:11 AM, Brian Vogel wrote:

SPSS (if it's the same SPSS I know of, and it probably is), was originally called the Statistical Package for the Social Sciences, is ancient, and has long since come into common use for number crunching in many disciplines.  That being said, SPSS was developed long before accessibility was on virtually anyone's radar.

I was, for a very long time, under the grossly mistaken impression that screen readers had been developed such that they could make a decent attempt to read virtually anything that might pop up on a screen.  I was recently disabused of that notion when working with a client who was expected to be able to use Interaction Desktop by Interaction Intelligence and a number of custom screen-based, but not web-based, programs developed for the client company.  It became abundantly clear instantly that JAWS (in this case, but it could have been any screen reader, this isn't JAWS bashing) was utterly incapable of interpreting the first thing that was on the screen because the underlying scripting for these applications did not exist.  We take for granted the way screen readers do function with common office suites and web browsers because an untold number of hours have been dedicated to creating the scripting that ships with them to handle these programs.  There is no way that any company can develop scripts "for everything" so the focus will logically be on the things that can benefit the most people in the most settings.   SPSS is absolutely a niche market, writ large.  In the context of the population at large, blind or not, very, very few people will ever touch SPSS.  That would not be a logical place to dedicate a lot of resources to as a result.

The above being said, after my experience with the client I made reference to, I was able to determine that there are several sites that had blind individuals using the software in question and that a significant scripting base was in place already and I believe it was actually done by Freedom Scientific.  What I do not understand is why companies like Freedom Scientific, when they're doing this work, do not have some contractual language in place that allows them to add said scripts to a central repository that they would maintain.   It is insane to keep reinventing the wheel, and that's exactly what happens when it comes to relatively little used commercial software when scripts have to be created, again and again, for each blind user at each site.  I was shocked that Freedom Scientific could not tell me whether any scripts existed or whether JAWS was known to have been used over Interaction Desktop.  Screen readers themselves are niche markets in the grand scheme of things and they would be boosting their respective reputations and really serving an important function of increasing accessibility for niche products if they set themselves up as centralized script repositories, with the proviso that they are not actively maintaining said scripts, just so a baseline would exist to work with when needed.

You can't convince me that SPSS hasn't been scripted, probably hundreds of times now, but where, for what screen reader or screen readers, who knows?
--
Brian

Here is a test to find out whether your mission in life is complete.  If you’re alive, it isn’t.

    ~ Lauren Bacall

    






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Re: making a program accessible (was spss inaccessibility: absolutely inexcusable)

Peter Beasley
 

It would be nice to have a graphic dictionary like Windoweyes does.

-----Original Message-----
From: Travis Siegel
Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2016 5:39 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] making a program accessible (was spss inaccessibility: absolutely inexcusable)

Actually, this thread brings up something I've been wondering about
myself. I have a program I use that isn't all that accessible with
NVDA. I don't know the first thing about how to make a program
accessible with NVDA. How would one go about working to make a program
accessible. It largely seems to be a matter of making NVDA see various
icons on the screen, and labeling those icons. The demo of jaws sees
the icons (NVDA does not), though even jaws doesn't know what those
icons are, so with this information in hand, how would one go about
making NVDA see these icons, and provide labels to them so they can be
properly identified?

I have no problem doing the work myself, I just don't know how/what to
do. There isn't anything in the NVDA manual discussing this topic, and
there probably should be.


Re: The New Firefox version

Arlene
 

I can't say I don't blame you.

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Shaun
Everiss
Sent: November-16-16 9:29 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] The New Firefox version

It seems to only happen if I edit the end of an address bar.
Right now I have selected the end of the bar in the case of twitter names
and then hit delete and that works well enough.
However if you screw a site up you have to kill what you spelt and hmm well
hit an arrow to get focus.
On the subject of sluggishness I used classic theme restorer to hide the
toolbars for navigation and remove all colours on toolbars, this seemed to
speed things up a little bit.
I also have changed a lot of the newer modern windows to older windows as
well as a few extra dom related things with that program.
Firefox is as fast as it ever was, but its a disturbing trend that stuff
like this is happening, I am still using it but to be honest if security was
not a major issue I'd drop back a version and either never update or drop
back to 3x which works however I like to stay as updated as i can for
security reasons.



On 16/11/2016 11:04 p.m., Gene wrote:
I didn't save earlier messages about Firefox so I'm answering in a new
thread. I just downloaded and tried the new version and this problem
appears to be very easily worked around. If you delete a letter or more
than one in the address bar, simply right arrow once then start moving left
again and, at least in my tests, things are read properly. While this
problem should be corrected, this appears to resolve the problem.

Gene