Date   

Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

 

On Mon, Jan 4, 2021 at 06:04 PM, Chris Smart wrote:
I think that what seems to annoy people is when someone asks a particularly simple question on a list, when in the time it takes to type and send the email, and wait for responses, they could have typed a couple words into Google and found the answer.
-
I'd say that's the most precise and accurate characterization I've seen.  And I have yet to see a single instance where I was irritated where the answer would not have been obtained far more immediately had perhaps 3 words used in the subject or post (or combination) been used for a search.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

       ~ Brian Vogel

 


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Chris Smart
 

Betsy, have you tried the NVDA basic training?


I'm going through it now, after using another screen reader for many years, and I find it to be quite well written and organized, with lots of little exercises to actually work through.


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Chris Smart
 

No, that's a dangerous blanket statement. Each of us comes to this with different skill and experience levels.

I think that what seems to annoy people is when someone asks a particularly simple question on a list, when in the time it takes to type and send the email, and wait for responses, they could have typed a couple words into Google and found the answer.

On 2021-01-04 5:36 p.m., Don H wrote:
So do I understand it correctly that posting to this list should be your last option to get help after doing a search for the answer?

On 1/4/2021 4:13 PM, Gene wrote:
There is a reason Brian is a voice in the wilderness and he stated it in his.  He said that as long as people don't let it be known that it is an imposition and annoyance to have people ask questions without searching, nothing will change.


The reason people don't make an issue of this on such lists is because they know and many may have experienced, many of the reasons more blind people don't know how to search.  They have received poor training, they may only have very limited interested in what they want to use their computers for, they may be learning but not to the point of knowing how to use the Internet well, there are all sorts of reasons.


I know Brian is willing to teach people but if all those who want to ask questions and don't know how to teach asked for such teaching, the demand would be enormous.


Gene
-----Original Message-----
We've all heard the possibly apocryphal Chinese adage, "Give a man fish and feed him for a day; teach him how to fish and feed him for life."
In many of these "pushback" exchanges, the pusher isn't teaching this person how to fish at all; they're just scolding them and sending them away for being piss-poor fishermen. For the most part, most blind people understand how painful it is to be dependent, especially if they've lost their sight later in life and were fiercely independent while sighted. They feel awful about having to ask simple questions or forgetting information they got before. I always help these folks, many of whom are elderly and will never become as computer-fluent as many of us are. If I know the answer to their question and can write it succinctly, it takes less time than admonishing them about not previously searching online for answers.
Many of our list members are relatively recent computer owners/users, taught an inferior step-by-step by rehab agencies who don't rehabilitate anyone from anything. Their entire world is now a scary place, where they cannot trust their remaining senses and where danger lurks on every corner. They read about online identity theft and viruses, about novice users turning their boxes into bricks, and become hyper-cautious about pressing even one key that hasn't been preapproved in someone's step-by-step instructions.
These lists are not the places to fault these people for losing their sight or for being incorrectly taught by the only agencies available to them. Just once, rather than embarking on one of these interminable threads admonishing people for allegedly not conducting online searches before asking questions, (something impossible to prove anyway), I'd like to see someone post a compassionate response:
"Don't feel bad, but your question is pretty basic and has been answered here and online. How long have you used computers? Can you do X, Y and Z? Have you ever tried to search online? Which browser and screen reader do you use? Can you navigate between search results and activate them? If you want to copy some text from what you read online, can you do that and paste it into a document? Do you have trouble understanding what's being described online (I.E., icons, sliders, dragable elements, animations, etc.)? If so, tell me which issues you're facing and I'll help you."
That's the kid of step-by-step that these folks need: how to navigate search results in a web browser, how to find actual responses on web forums amidst all the posting headers and
shameless ads, how to copy/paste text from the web into documents, how to explore top-level menu bars and ribbon controls, how to listen for keyboard mnemonics, how to configure screen readers to report keyboard mnemonics, etc.
None of us learned to fish by being mocked when we couldn't even hook a line or cast a pole. Yet, because it makes us feel self-righteous and important, especially in a world that so frequently tears us down with impunity, we visit the same suffering upon these hapless souls whose only "infractions" are being blind and knowing next to nothing about modern technologies.
In case some of you think I may preach more than I practice, ask around how many people I've emailed privately to help with their problems, how many times I've talked with them by phone and tandemed into their computers to do hours of configurations that would ultimately facilitate their lives. Ask how many people have gotten detailed explanations from me about Windows controls, settings, web browsers, audio applications, word processors, even registry and group policy settings.

Orlando












Using Groups.io, some handy info

 

Hello All,

          Someone just wrote to me privately asking about using Mute this Topic and noting that he was asked to log in to Groups.io, which you absolutely will need to do on occasion, as what keeps track of the topics you mute is associated with your Groups.io account.

           When you subscribe to any Groups.io group, the e-mail address you used to do so becomes your login ID and an account, that is "without password but can't be logged in to on the web until you set one," is created.  

Here are several tutorials I've written that will allow you to set things up so that you can use the advanced features that Groups.io gives you:

Establishing a Groups.io Website Account Password If You’ve Been an E-Mail Only User (docx) - The most basic, and first thing you must do.  This information is repeated in the tutorial on controlling the mail you get from Groups.io, but I made a standalone version that only covers the steps to do this.  Once you do this, the Mute this Topic link becomes a "click and its done" affair provided you logged in using the browser that's your default browser and haven't closed that browser and cleared cookies.  Mute this topic uses the web interface, but not in such a way that you need to interact with it, you just need to have access to your account, which means just staying logged in once you are logged in.


Changing the Email Address for Your Groups.io Account (docx) - If you ever want to ditch your current email address, and have subscribed to multiple groups using it, you need not unsubscribe from all of them and resubscribe with the new address.  You can simply log in to your Groups.io account and change the email address associated with it.  Doing so will also change your login ID to that new email address rather than the one you were using.

Controlling the Messages You Receive via E-Mail from Groups.io (docx) - The title says it all, and there are some very nifty tricks you can use to get exquisite control over what lands in your inbox and under what conditions for any group to which you're subscribed.

I am happy to give additional information on anything that might not be clear in the above tutorials.  It's to all of our advantages that each member knows how to get what they want out of the Groups.io experience.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

       ~ Brian Vogel

 


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Betsy Grenevitch
 

I have stay quiet until now but will say that I am not great at searching for answers to computer questions unless I have already written down the instructions in my own files in a way that I would understand them. I am so technologically challenged that most manuals are not written in a vocabulary or step order that I am able to follow.


It is good to hear that there are some here who do not mind us asking questions on the list. I would have never learned some things about NVDA, otherwise.



On 1/4/2021 11:36 AM, Brian Vogel wrote:
On Mon, Jan 4, 2021 at 11:28 AM, Mike Capelle wrote:
OMG, if someone asks me a question, I will answer it, telling someone to look it up or research it, is rude!
-
Sorry, Mike, but I have to disagree, and not just in reference to blind groups/lists, though I see what follows happen more frequently on them.

Anyone, before they impose upon the time of over a thousand people, should think about whether what they're about to ask is likely already answered and whether the answers to same are readily available to them without imposing on the time of others.  Expecting that someone will have lifted a finger before imposing on the time of group members is not unreasonable, at all, and I have seen many messages over the years where the effort to type the subject and text took more effort than distilling what was in the subject to a very tightly focused web search that would have produced the answer many times over would have.  It is lazy, and rude, to ask that sort of question without having tried to find it yourself, first.

Another segment from my "Expectations of Members" document that I have used in group rules elsewhere, but not on the NVDA Group, is pertinent:
----

1.        You will have done a web search and/or group archive search before posting almost any question, because the vast majority of questions relevant to online communities have been answered, repeatedly.  It is rude to impose upon the time of hundreds to thousands of people regarding questions that have answers that can be found independently with very little effort and basic skills.

2.       If you are told, “There’s this thing called a web search,” or, “Google is your friend,” or similar that you realize you deserve it.  I have yet to see this response to anything that does not warrant it.  If you ask something that indicates you didn’t follow the practices outlined in items 2 thru 4, before asking online and imposing on the time of others when that’s completely unnecessary, this is a perfectly legitimate response to that.  You’ve been lazy and rude; don’t repeat that mistake.

3.       If you receive a reaction such as those in #5 above, the appropriate response is NEVER to argue back.  The one and only response that is appropriate, if you actually do not have the skills to do your own searching, is to ask for assistance in acquiring same, period.  Believe it or not, those who gave that reaction to you will very often be your best assistants in acquiring the skills you need.  That reaction is meant as a nudge to you to acquire them.

----
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

       ~ Brian Vogel

 

--
Betsy Grenevitch 678-862-3876


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

 

On Mon, Jan 4, 2021 at 05:36 PM, Don H wrote:
So do I understand it correctly that posting to this list should be your last option to get help after doing a search for the answer?
-
I would say that, "Posting to this list should be what you do only after doing a search for the answer."  Whether that's a web search, an archives search, or both will vary.

Calling it a "last option" is a phrasing I would not use.  But it certainly shouldn't be the first option when you (the generic you) have every reason to believe that a question has likely been asked and answered, often innumerable times, already.  I really, truly, honestly do not get why this is even in the slightest bit controversial.  Y'all know from your own experience here and elsewhere just how much unnecessary repetition occurs because not even the slightest research was performed before asking.  Had it been, the question would never have been posted in many cases.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

       ~ Brian Vogel

 


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Don H
 

So do I understand it correctly that posting to this list should be your last option to get help after doing a search for the answer?

On 1/4/2021 4:13 PM, Gene wrote:
There is a reason Brian is a voice in the wilderness and he stated it in his.  He said that as long as people don't let it be known that it is an imposition and annoyance to have people ask questions without searching, nothing will change.
The reason people don't make an issue of this on such lists is because they know and many may have experienced, many of the reasons more blind people don't know how to search.  They have received poor training, they may only have very limited interested in what they want to use their computers for, they may be learning but not to the point of knowing how to use the Internet well, there are all sorts of reasons.
I know Brian is willing to teach people but if all those who want to ask questions and don't know how to teach asked for such teaching, the demand would be enormous.
Gene
-----Original Message-----
We've all heard the possibly apocryphal Chinese adage, "Give a man fish and feed him for a day; teach him how to fish and feed him for life."
In many of these "pushback" exchanges, the pusher isn't teaching this person how to fish at all; they're just scolding them and sending them away for being piss-poor fishermen. For the most part, most blind people understand how painful it is to be dependent, especially if they've lost their sight later in life and were fiercely independent while sighted. They feel awful about having to ask simple questions or forgetting information they got before. I always help these folks, many of whom are elderly and will never become as computer-fluent as many of us are. If I know the answer to their question and can write it succinctly, it takes less time than admonishing them about not previously searching online for answers.
Many of our list members are relatively recent computer owners/users, taught an inferior step-by-step by rehab agencies who don't rehabilitate anyone from anything. Their entire world is now a scary place, where they cannot trust their remaining senses and where danger lurks on every corner. They read about online identity theft and viruses, about novice users turning their boxes into bricks, and become hyper-cautious about pressing even one key that hasn't been preapproved in someone's step-by-step instructions.
These lists are not the places to fault these people for losing their sight or for being incorrectly taught by the only agencies available to them. Just once, rather than embarking on one of these interminable threads admonishing people for allegedly not conducting online searches before asking questions, (something impossible to prove anyway), I'd like to see someone post a compassionate response:
"Don't feel bad, but your question is pretty basic and has been answered here and online. How long have you used computers? Can you do X, Y and Z? Have you ever tried to search online? Which browser and screen reader do you use? Can you navigate between search results and activate them? If you want to copy some text from what you read online, can you do that and paste it into a document? Do you have trouble understanding what's being described online (I.E., icons, sliders, dragable elements, animations, etc.)? If so, tell me which issues you're facing and I'll help you."
That's the kid of step-by-step that these folks need: how to navigate search results in a web browser, how to find actual responses on web forums amidst all the posting headers and
shameless ads, how to copy/paste text from the web into documents, how to explore top-level menu bars and ribbon controls, how to listen for keyboard mnemonics, how to configure screen readers to report keyboard mnemonics, etc.
None of us learned to fish by being mocked when we couldn't even hook a line or cast a pole. Yet, because it makes us feel self-righteous and important, especially in a world that so frequently tears us down with impunity, we visit the same suffering upon these hapless souls whose only "infractions" are being blind and knowing next to nothing about modern technologies.
In case some of you think I may preach more than I practice, ask around how many people I've emailed privately to help with their problems, how many times I've talked with them by phone and tandemed into their computers to do hours of configurations that would ultimately facilitate their lives. Ask how many people have gotten detailed explanations from me about Windows controls, settings, web browsers, audio applications, word processors, even registry and group policy settings.

Orlando





Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

 

On Mon, Jan 4, 2021 at 04:04 PM, Devin Prater wrote:
Our performance tests hinges upon students' knowledge of keyboard commands and their ability to perform them. I also agree that
using a search engine should be stressed more.
-
Just putting it out there that this was my metric, too, when doing private tutoring.  It wasn't about achieving a grade, but achieving a minimum proficiency with doing what you need to do using a screen reader to do it.

Now, I hasten to add that the vast majority of my students are formerly sighted, and had computer experience from that period.  It's really about re-learning to do the things you did in non-point-and-click mode.

Several of the things that anyone must be able to do are;  read email, browse the web, web search.   Most also need to know the basics of using a word processor, too.  It was about getting someone to where these things were "easy compared to where they started out" but I never had enough time to make them absolute wizards with anything.  But I wanted them to be proficient enough to do ongoing exploration, with trial and error, on their own.  And I wanted them to realize that no one can ever cover all features of a screen reader or other complex software in any realistic sense.  There will be times where you realize you need to do something then have to seek out the how.  And seeking answers to non-trivial "hows" and rarely used features is exactly what groups such as this are about.  I'm constantly learning about things I had not realized existed because the need for same had never occurred during my travels.  I'll probably be in my grave before I could know each and every nook and cranny of NVDA.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

       ~ Brian Vogel

 


Re: possible bug with Numpad Nav Mode add-on

Gene
 

The numpad is reserved by NVDA for other uses. the add-on evidently doesn't allow for the use you want. I don't know the technicalities of how the add-on works, but it isn't just a case of changing something. When it was initially introduced, it didn't allow for the use of numpad insert insert numpad down arrow to start read to end. Then, after it was requested that this ability be added, it was. In this case, evidently this would have to be added. But is there enough interest and benefit in doing so? Since you can use the down arrow key on the main keyboard, why does this matter to any extent?

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Cavanaugh
Sent: Monday, January 04, 2021 4:14 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] possible bug with Numpad Nav Mode add-on

What makes you say that? With every other screen reader I've used, it
doesn't matter which arrow key I use. Why should NVDA be any different
with the appropriate add-on?

On 1/4/21, Andre Fisher <andrefisher729@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi.

Seems like a Windows bug.






Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

 

On Mon, Jan 4, 2021 at 05:13 PM, Gene wrote:
I know Brian is willing to teach people but if all those who want to ask questions and don't know how to teach asked for such teaching, the demand would be enormous.
-
Another thing on which we will have to agree to disagree.

After a couple of cycles of teaching, there would exist reference material that could be given to later questioners to ask.

It's well known that you and I have very different perspectives on what can be expected, base knowledge wise.  And most of that base knowledge comes from trial and error rather than formal training when it comes to all things computer related, particularly if you are "of a certain age" or older.

We do agree, though, that much of the training on how to use a screen reader is woefully substandard.  Way too much allowance for brute force and inefficiency rather than trying to instill "fastest and most efficient," or the start of it, by delving in just a slight bit deeper.  But one will never "cover everything" no matter what.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

       ~ Brian Vogel

 


Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Jackie
 

Brian, you wrote:
"Saying that someone who's never been able to see, "are expected to
know how things look, to the best of our ability," is the equivalent
of saying, of a totally deaf person, that they "are expected to know
how things sound, to the best of their ability." It's a completely
meaningless concept to someone who has never had a given sense, and
even I will say that it's insulting to expect something of someone
that their own sensory palette makes impossible in any meaningful
way."

Well, Brian, what I think she's saying is that as a blind person we
really need to understand certain concepts. While a congenitally blind
person may not truly be able to understand all aspects of the color
yellow, for instance, they do need to understand that yellow is closer
to the color of the sun when someone sees it than blue is, for
example. They should also understand things like it's lighter than
black or navy, for example, but not quite as light as white,if for no
other reason than to sort laundry.

& on another note, believe me, I wish I had a tutorial on what sighted
folks see on their cell phones. This is technology that took place
quite a few years after I lost my eyesight, so I don't really have
much concept of a hamburger menu or the messages icon or how other
icons appear on the phone. Makes it harder to teach the hubby how to
operate his. Lots of times I just put Voiceover on & show him what I'm
doing, but if he needs help from afar, he's kinda screwed. Sometimes I
do wish screenreaders, including NVDA, perhaps as part of the input
mode, ie, press it twice, could give icon descriptions. The truth is
that while we may not be able to understand everything you see, & you,
in turn, might not be able to understand all that we experience, it's
still good to try to narrow the gap, where possible. & it might also
create additional employment opportunities for us, especially in the
field of technical support, if we knew these things, because that is
how the majority of people relate to their devices. W/o being able to
explain things in terms the majority can understand, we're pretty much
relegated to working for organizations that cater to the
blind/disabled, & that's a pretty narrow scope.


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

 

On Mon, Jan 4, 2021 at 04:05 PM, Cearbhall O'Meadhra wrote:
What has this to do with the subject line?
-
Nothing.  This topic ceased to be an Admin Notice a long while back, and was granted what I'll call a "meta discussion exemption" by the group owner.  I posted earlier exactly where that was.

Anyone reading messages on this topic over the last several days should recognize this by now.  It's staying titled as it is because it allows those who aren't interested to mute it with ease.

This is the very rarest of exceptions where an off-topic meta discussion has been allowed, and only on this topic.  We would have devolved into the "everything except NVDA group" had all the things discussed so far been spun off into their own off-topic topics.

So, those who want to continue with the meta discussion should keep reading and/or posting.  Those who don't should hit the Mute this Topic link.  It will eventually die off as all topics do.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

       ~ Brian Vogel

 


Re: possible bug with Numpad Nav Mode add-on

Bob Cavanaugh <cavbob1993@...>
 

What makes you say that? With every other screen reader I've used, it
doesn't matter which arrow key I use. Why should NVDA be any different
with the appropriate add-on?

On 1/4/21, Andre Fisher <andrefisher729@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi.

Seems like a Windows bug.






Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Gene
 

There is a reason Brian is a voice in the wilderness and he stated it in his.  He said that as long as people don't let it be known that it is an imposition and annoyance to have people ask questions without searching, nothing will change.


The reason people don't make an issue of this on such lists is because they know and many may have experienced, many of the reasons more blind people don't know how to search.  They have received poor training, they may only have very limited interested in what they want to use their computers for, they may be learning but not to the point of knowing how to use the Internet well, there are all sorts of reasons.


I know Brian is willing to teach people but if all those who want to ask questions and don't know how to teach asked for such teaching, the demand would be enormous.


Gene

-----Original Message-----
We've all heard the possibly apocryphal Chinese adage, "Give a man fish and feed him for a day; teach him how to fish and feed him for life."
In many of these "pushback" exchanges, the pusher isn't teaching this person how to fish at all; they're just scolding them and sending them away for being piss-poor fishermen. For the most part, most blind people understand how painful it is to be dependent, especially if they've lost their sight later in life and were fiercely independent while sighted. They feel awful about having to ask simple questions or forgetting information they got before. I always help these folks, many of whom are elderly and will never become as computer-fluent as many of us are. If I know the answer to their question and can write it succinctly, it takes less time than admonishing them about not previously searching online for answers.
Many of our list members are relatively recent computer owners/users, taught an inferior step-by-step by rehab agencies who don't rehabilitate anyone from anything. Their entire world is now a scary place, where they cannot trust their remaining senses and where danger lurks on every corner. They read about online identity theft and viruses, about novice users turning their boxes into bricks, and become hyper-cautious about pressing even one key that hasn't been preapproved in someone's step-by-step instructions.
These lists are not the places to fault these people for losing their sight or for being incorrectly taught by the only agencies available to them. Just once, rather than embarking on one of these interminable threads admonishing people for allegedly not conducting online searches before asking questions, (something impossible to prove anyway), I'd like to see someone post a compassionate response:
"Don't feel bad, but your question is pretty basic and has been answered here and online. How long have you used computers? Can you do X, Y and Z? Have you ever tried to search online? Which browser and screen reader do you use? Can you navigate between search results and activate them? If you want to copy some text from what you read online, can you do that and paste it into a document? Do you have trouble understanding what's being described online (I.E., icons, sliders, dragable elements, animations, etc.)? If so, tell me which issues you're facing and I'll help you."
That's the kid of step-by-step that these folks need: how to navigate search results in a web browser, how to find actual responses on web forums amidst all the posting headers and
shameless ads, how to copy/paste text from the web into documents, how to explore top-level menu bars and ribbon controls, how to listen for keyboard mnemonics, how to configure screen readers to report keyboard mnemonics, etc.
None of us learned to fish by being mocked when we couldn't even hook a line or cast a pole. Yet, because it makes us feel self-righteous and important, especially in a world that so frequently tears us down with impunity, we visit the same suffering upon these hapless souls whose only "infractions" are being blind and knowing next to nothing about modern technologies.
In case some of you think I may preach more than I practice, ask around how many people I've emailed privately to help with their problems, how many times I've talked with them by phone and tandemed into their computers to do hours of configurations that would ultimately facilitate their lives. Ask how many people have gotten detailed explanations from me about Windows controls, settings, web browsers, audio applications, word processors, even registry and group policy settings.

Orlando




Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Kevin Cussick
 

Brian, well put thanks.

On 04/01/2021 16:48, Brian Vogel wrote:
On Mon, Jan 4, 2021 at 11:40 AM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:
I do picture visual images as that's how I was taught.
-
But, Sarah, the only way you can do that is if you, at one time, had enough vision to even have "visual images" as a concept.  Those totally blind since birth do not think visually in the way I do, that's for sure.  And any instruction related to color as an identifier is off the table, period, because it is not helpful as a classifier to someone who's never had the ability to process color.
You really don't seem to get "how you read" in many instances, nor do you often revise what you've said to more accurately depict what you actually do, although you will on occasion.
Saying that someone who's never been able to see, "are expected to know how things look, to the best of our ability," is the equivalent of saying, of a totally deaf person, that they "are expected to know how things sound, to the best of their ability."  It's a completely meaningless concept to someone who has never had a given sense, and even I will say that it's insulting to expect something of someone that their own sensory palette makes impossible in any meaningful way.
--
Brian -Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042
The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.
       ~ Brian Vogel


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Cearbhall O'Meadhra
 

Brian,

 

What has this to do with the subject line?

 

All the best,

 

Cearbhall

 

m +353 (0)833323487 Ph: _353 (0)1-2864623 e: cearbhall.omeadhra@...

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Monday, January 4, 2021 7:06 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read

 

On Mon, Jan 4, 2021 at 01:37 PM, Orlando Enrique Fiol wrote:

Then, some of the analogies are just downright confusing. Black is supposed to mean darkness, an absence of all color. Yet, when the color drains from faces, we don't say that people go black; we say they go pale. To say nothing of the terrible term "colored" for Black people. How can they be simultaneously dark and colored?

-
Orlando,

           Several different concepts are at play in your observations.  First, color, strictly speaking, is only about light.  It is a property of what wavelengths are reflected back to eyes that can, of course, see.  When color gets spoken of in the physics sense, it's discussed in an additive sense, and all colors together form what gets called white light (and, no, I can't define white beyond the presence of all colors simultaneously such that something appears white).  Pigments actually work by subtracting wavelengths from the full visible spectrum and only allowing certain wavelengths to be reflected back to your eyes.  In essence, they're light sponges that only pick up certain wavelengths, while bouncing others back.

Black, when used in reference to light, means (if one is being strict) the absence of all light.  But in the real world that's not generally achieved, though things come close.  You will hear discussions of ultra-black paints and, believe me, they are a far more intense experience than what's typical.

Now, on to not going black, but going pale.  That, too, is 100% accurate.  Black, when used as a reference to someone with a lot of melanin in their skin, has never meant literal black as in the absence of all light.  And as to colored, which was once the chosen term by those now generally referred to as African-American or Black [see the NAACP], this is relative to the much, much paler tone of white skin, which is not, literally white.

All skin tones, regardless of their base color, have the undertone given by blood flowing beneath the surface of the skin.  When we are embarrassed (and you can often literally feel this, even if you can't see it) or for certain other forms of emotion there is often a rush of blood under the cheeks or sometimes to the whole face, resulting in what's called a blush, which is clearly visible to most who can see.  Hence the phrase, "The blushing bride," and similar.  Brides aren't embarrassed, though, but the way most of us experience the biggest blushes is when we are embarrassed, whether for bad reasons or good.  When one gets an emotional shock, something about what the body does very often causes precisely the opposite, where instead of blood rushing to the face it literally drains from under the skin, and no matter what your base skin tone that results in "going pale."  Pale and flushed (which is often the term used for blushing full face rather than just cheeks) are relative terms, not absolute ones, so anyone can go pale or become flushed.  Of course, the paler your base skin tone the easier it is to see blushing/flushing, and the darker your base skin tone the easier it is to see "going pale" because the state changes visually are more dramatic.  Almost everyone has heard the description of someone who's Caucasian being described as "pasty white," which means they have relatively little pink to their skin tone from blood beneath the surface to begin with.  If they blush, it's like a light bulb has gone off in red beneath their skin, whereas you'd be much harder pressed to detect paleness say, from an impending faint, were it to occur.  

And the opposing end of the light spectrum goes from true black, which means no color whatsoever, to white, which means the presence of all wavelengths.  Those of us who are sighted actually generally think of black as a color more than white, but both, because they're on the spectrum of visual perception, are commonly considered colors.  But it's all the things in between that, strictly speaking, actually are colors in the sense of specific combinations of wavelengths of light that are somewhere between none at all and all at equal intensity, which produces what we call white light.  [If you're into literal noise, think white noise versus pink noise and I believe there are other classes based on what frequencies are there in combination and at what intensities.]
 --

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

       ~ Brian Vogel

 


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Devin Prater
 

Stuff inline.


On 1/4/21 2:37 PM, Orlando Enrique Fiol via groups.io wrote:
At 01:35 PM 1/4/2021, Brian Vogel wrote:
Assertions by some others to the contrary, this is not limited to
Linux Land nor to computing.  I have never met anyone who has not
needed, at one point or another, to look something up for themselves
and then, sometimes, struggle through the material alone for the most
part.

Okay, yall. Since I never took a single blind rehab agency computer
class in my uneventful life, I can't answer this question. For you
folks who have undergone such torture, how many of you took graded
classes with graded exams for which you had to study manuals to answer
specific questions? I'll wait with a cup of coffee.
I could use some of that coffee. Anyways, I am a technology trainer in
one of the adult education rehab centers for the blind, and I want to
World Services for the Blind, or whatever they're calling themselves
now, in Arkansas to get my Assistive Technology Instructor
certification. Sure, many on the list will just spout out "Well
certifications aren't worth much," or whatever. And I agree. But shoot,
at least it got me a job. A lot of what we did was go through books on
using and teaching Microsoft Office. We teach some of that here, except
Outlook, but we also teach Internet and Email skills, along with
Windows, screen reader (NVDA), and other Assistive Technology like Note
Takers and whatever tech the student comes with. For both places though,
you don't really fail the class, you try again until you succeed.


Most blind folks learn what passes for computer skills in entirely
low-pressure environments where they're fed every freaking keystroke
by the instructor, who usually is only five keystrokes ahead of the
students. There are no manuals or online search skills being taught,
and certainly no exams with actual consequences for which such skills
would matter. Make blind folks answer graded exam questions based
exclusively on help manual and online search content, with
scholarships contingent upon their grades, and we'll master those
skills right quick.
I agree. Our performance tests hinges upon students' knowledge of
keyboard commands and their ability to perform them. I also agree that
using a search engine should be stressed more.


But our piss-poor, shameful and shameless rehab culture teaches us not
to excel because it knows the dirty secret: excelling doesn't make any
difference to our professional trajectories. So, they just teach us
the minimum we need to get by. Some people are so down on themselves
for being blind in the first place that they don't demand more or even
wonder if they can manage more because their families, friends and
teachers are all smacking them down, reminding them to be "realistic"
and know their places, shielding them in poisonous pseudo-protective
cocoons wherein no one outside the family can be trusted.
That's one problem I have. I don't know if I can be a programmer, my
thoughts are so slow and it takes me longer to understand things. At
least, that's how I feel compared to other people. And even
professionally, I don't know if I'm doing enough for my students, or how
I can better teach them and help them grow in confidence with
technology. I mean, we try to help them be independent. They student
course work on their own, using keyboard commands for both studying and
practicing what they learn. I'm just not very creative.


These tactics are all designed to keep us down, playing accessible
games all day, living at home with our parents, collecting our measly
SSI checks, participating in our conniving and manipulative blindness
organizations, perhaps dabbling with some hobbies such as cooking,
knitting, hand radio, digital audio workstations, or Linux.
So how can we change this? How can I help change this? Then again, most
blind people I know don't even consider things like Linux or audio
workstations, and quite a few don't even play games.


The luckiest of us land jobs at call centers doing customer service
for inaccessible products or speaking inaccessibly about operating
systems. Better still, some of us land the really choice jobs:
teaching other hapless blindies in a haphazard rudimentary manner how
to use today's devices using last century's mindset.
Last century's mindset? So, what mindset is of this century?


The only way, of course, to keep the cycle going is for the students
to be eventually employed teaching computers and smartphone to fresh
meat. Each one who lands one of these jobs is so thankful that they
don't question what's at the end of the line for them and for their
students: a big bunch of nothing. No jobs, no promotions, no health
care besides Medicaid or Medicare, no high living standard with nice
clothes and vacations.
I mean, I don't really need nice clothes, I'm not really into all that.
I am pretty thankful for this job, I just want to do it the best I can,
and be as helpful to my students and coworkers as possible.


That's what we get, a whole lot of nothing.
So, unless we start rolling up our sleeves and pushing back with all
our mind against this low-expectation racket, we'll keep getting a
whole lot of nothing. But, we'll be able to browse the web with human
speech as entertainment. Ever wonder why so many rehab agencies offer
us computer classes? It's not for employment. They know we won't be
turning out Powerpoint presentations or using Microsoft Access any
time soon, presenting exciting ideas at regional or international
conferences. All this computer push is to keep us entertained. As long
as we're able to post on Facebook and download idiotic Youtube videos,
perhaps read some romance novels on Bard or Bookshare, we're
entertained and preoccupied, blissfully unaware that our living
standard hasn't improved in fifty years, that we're still living below
the poverty line, deciding between food and prescriptions, evaluating
everything on the basis of affordability. Thusly entertained on our
devices, knowing just enough to stay entertained, we eventually become
inured to unemployment and poverty, disfunctional familial and social
relationships, so much so that our devices become our refuges from
everything that sucks around us.
I think this is a problem with our global culture at large, not just
with blind people. Although, it is more noticeable with blind people, as
the "amusing ourselves to death" problem is more starkly outlined in our
lives.


Folks, push for more! Use your devices for much more than
entertainment. Learn how things work in terms *you* understand, not in
some translated sightling mumbo-jumbo. Learn how to set up your own
rules for your own game, because the sighted world sure ain't giving
you a shot at winning theirs.
Okay, I guess that's something I'll have to Google search, right? <smiles>




Orlando





Re: Say next and previous sentence not working in Word

Bob Cavanaugh <cavbob1993@...>
 

No, I haven't. I didn't even know about this command until yesterday,
and only tried it in the one document. I was working with another
document last night that I will have to try it in. I also just used
the one key.

On 1/4/21, benmoxey@gmail.com <benmoxey@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Bob and Cearbhall



To add to the mystery, I just checked on a work PC running NVDA 2020.3 and
Word 2016. Sentence navigation is working for me using Alt + Up or Down
arrow.



I realised that Tony’s add-on has come to the rescue, but I’m interested to
know if either of you have tried the commands in several documents, just to
ensure it’s not document specific. Also, have you tried using both Alt keys,
just to make sure it’s not to do with a regional keyboard setting?



Cheers



Ben



From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Bob Cavanaugh
Sent: Monday, 4 January 2021 10:43 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Say next and previous sentence not working in Word



I just happen to have a word document open as I’m reading this, running
office 2016 as well, and I get the same result. alt plus up or down arrow
does not move by sentence.





On Jan 3, 2021, at 3:35 PM, Cearbhall O'Meadhra <cearbhall.omeadhra@blbc.ie
<mailto:cearbhall.omeadhra@blbc.ie> > wrote:



Ben,



In fact, I am running Office 2016 so you have your answer!





All the best,



Cearbhall



m +353 (0)833323487 Ph: _353 (0)1-2864623 e: cearbhall.omeadhra@blbc.ie
<mailto:cearbhall.omeadhra@blbc.ie>





From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> <nvda@nvda.groups.io
<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> > On Behalf Of benmoxey@gmail.com
<mailto:benmoxey@gmail.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 3, 2021 10:11 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Say next and previous sentence not working in Word



Hi Cearbhall



I forgot to mention that I am running Office 365, rather than 2016. I don’t
think this will make a difference, but it would be interesting to hear from
someone running 2016 to clarify if navigating by sentence is working for
them using Alt + up or Down arrow.



Cheers



Ben



From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> <nvda@nvda.groups.io
<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> > On Behalf Of Cearbhall O'Meadhra
Sent: Monday, 4 January 2021 8:47 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Say next and previous sentence not working in Word



Ben,



Thanks for taking the trouble to reply.



I have downloaded the add-on today called “SentenceNav” and another called
“TextNav”. These do the job. So, in response to your suggestion, I restarted
NVDA with add-ons disabled. This eliminated the functions provided by those
two apps. I could now try out your suggestio. In Outlook, I found that you
were right. When I switched to the active cursor with NVDA + space, the
sentence commands did work. However, they failed to work in NS, Word. Any
ideas?



I restarted the two add-ons and now I have the sentence reading controls in
both Word and Outlook!



I would like to hear from the developers why this strange behaviour is
happening.



All the best,



Cearbhall



m +353 (0)833323487 Ph: _353 (0)1-2864623 e: cearbhall.omeadhra@blbc.ie
<mailto:cearbhall.omeadhra@blbc.ie>





From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> <nvda@nvda.groups.io
<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> > On Behalf Of benmoxey@gmail.com
<mailto:benmoxey@gmail.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 3, 2021 9:01 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Say next and previous sentence not working in Word



Hi Cearbhall



The next and previous sentence commands should be working as normal in Word.
However, note that they will not work if you are using Browse mode in a Word
document to navigate by headings etc. Ensure you are in Focus mode by using
the toggle command, NVDA + Space, and give them another try.



I hope this is helpful.



All the best.



Ben



From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> <nvda@nvda.groups.io
<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> > On Behalf Of Cearbhall O'Meadhra
Sent: Monday, 4 January 2021 2:44 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: [nvda] Say next and previous sentence not working in Word



Hi, all,

I am using Windows 10, NVDA 2020.3 and Word 2016.



When I try to read the next or previous sentence in a Word document, using
alt + down-Arrow, or alt + up-arrow, I get no response. Indeed when I turn
on keyboard help, these key combinations get no echo. It appears that this
function has been removed from NVDA! I opened the NVDA User Guide and it
still says that alt-Down-arrow is to be used to say next sentence and
alt-up-arrow for previous sentence.



Can anyone explain what is happening? Is the user guide out of step?



All the best,



Cearbhall



m +353 (0)833323487 Ph: _353 (0)1-2864623 e: cearbhall.omeadhra@blbc.ie
<mailto:cearbhall.omeadhra@blbc.ie>













Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Chris Smart
 

Slight correction Orlando, it's ham as in amateur radio, not hand radio.

and it's a wonderful hobby.


Bug? Office365: Word, Headings in Elements dialog not working

Dan Miner
 

I got this small 2 page document which has about 9 headings in it.  I put NVDA in browse mode, pressed NVDA+F7 to bring up the Elements dialog which defaults to showing Links (odd unless it’s the last one used ?IMHO).  I press ALT+H to switch to headings.  NVDA becomes unresponsive for several seconds and then finally returns with no headings in the tree view.  Also, changing the radio buttons from links, charts, etc will cause the same unresponsive state as well when landing on headings.  However, if I use the quick navigation keys in the document by pressing H, it will happily take me to each one.  It also registers the heading level and will go to the proper level with pressing 1-6.

 

Anyone else seeing this?  I can probably include the document if needed.

 

                Dan

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