Date   

Re: suggestion: giving google chrome a try Performance degradation in current Firefox

Kevin Chao
 



On Sat, Apr 2, 2016 at 5:32 AM Felix G. <constantlyvariable@...> wrote:
Hi!
Great! Indeed it looks like some things got ironed out.
Great that you've noticed some improvements within the week of them being reported on this list! :) 
For example, the document seems to reliably get NVDA's attention after pressing enter in the address field.
Excellent! Actionable feedback drives improvements. 
That's very good news. However, I'm not switching by a long shot.
View it as relative, not absolute switch. It's another tool in toolbox. 
Backspace doesn't speak in edit fields,
Is this *all* or a specific edit field(s)? If ladder, step to reproduce, please. Thanks! 
text I type sometimes gets scrambled
Same as above. Example with repro steps. What was done right before the "scramble" and what indicates that this "scramble" happened? 
because the caret doesn't move
Does NVDA report something indicating this? 
as expected when Chrome thinks it should autocorrect
Is there NVDA feedback for this? 
something, and it still says "unknown
Example with repro steps. 
" with disconcerting frequency
Examples that quantifies this frequency. e.g. I did xyz and it said "unknown" 3/5 times.  
. Moving through a paragraph in an edit field line by line will invariably announce the entire paragraph
Examples and repro steps. 
. And on inbox.google.com it will still announce what previously had focus
Is this when using TAB, NVDA quick-nav, or Inbox keyboard shortcut?  
rather than what just gained it.
Sorry for sounding more disappointed than I wanted to sound, but this is Google's own website with Google's own browser, so I was expecting that all of the basics would be covered.
It's about progress and there is no such thing as perfection... It'd be good if you're able to provide detailed specifics with repro steps using Chrome Send Feedback.
Still, here comes the positive ending note: Signing in works beautifully now. That's something I had been struggling with for a long time so as far as that's concerned I'm delighted.
Great about progress, but let's push forward with ensuring improvements where needed happen for NVDA!
Kind regards,
Felix Grützmacher



On Sat, 2 Apr 2016 at 14:02 Mallard <mallard@...> wrote:
Hello,

But what happens with Captcha solving in Chrome?

Ciao,
Ollie




Il 02/04/2016 09:52, Nimer Jaber ha scritto:
> Hello,
>
> I am very happy to say that my issues at least have been addressed,
> and that browsing with Chrome and NVDA is the best it has ever been.
>
> On 02-Apr-16 02:40, Kevin Chao wrote:
>> Please retry with latest build of Chrome Canary... Accessibility
>> improvements went in!
>> On Sun, Mar 27, 2016 at 4:08 PM Nimer Jaber <nimerjaber1@...>
>> wrote:
>>
>>     Hello,
>>
>>     Please find my answers below. I am hoping that some of these
>>     issues are just the way that my specific configuration is set up.
>>
>>
>>     On 27-Mar-16 17:55, Chris Mullins wrote:
>>>
>>>     Hi Nimer
>>>
>>>     Just a few questions:
>>>
>>>     Can I establish if you  are using Chrome or Canary?
>>>
>>     Canary
>>>
>>>     What is ChromeVox?
>>>
>>     Chromevox is Google's screen reading option that a user can
>>     enable while using Chrome or Chrome OS.
>>
>>>     What is the status of the ‘automatically run say all on page
>>>     load’ in  the NVDA Browse mode dialog?
>>>
>>     Unchecked.
>>
>>>     What is the status of the ‘automatic focus mode for focus
>>>     changes’ in  the NVDA Browse mode dialog?
>>>
>>     Checked
>>
>>>     What is the status of the ‘automatic focus mode for caret
>>>     movement’ in  the NVDA Browse mode dialog?
>>>
>>     Unchecked
>>
>>
>>>     I have   Chrome and Canary and don’t get the same as you re
>>>     pressing tab to see the content in either version of the browser
>>>
>>>     The quick navigation keys operate when you are in browse mode
>>>     and I’ve not had trouble with them in standard web pages with
>>>     eiter browser but there is a problem with them in the settings
>>>     page of Chrome but they seem to work OK in the Canary settings page.
>>>
>>>     The chrome menu reads perfectly in chrome but there are a couple
>>>     of gaps in the Canary version after Zoom and Edit entries.
>>>
>>>     Cheers
>>>
>>>     Chris
>>>
>>>     *From:*Nimer Jaber [mailto:nimerjaber1@...]
>>>     *Sent:* 27 March 2016 22:37
>>>     *To:* nvda@groups.io <mailto:nvda@groups.io>
>>>     *Subject:* Re: suggestion: giving google chrome a try [nvda]
>>>     Performance degradation in current Firefox
>>>
>>>     Unfortunately, Chrome accessibility has a bit of a ways to go. I
>>>     wish it didn't. I wish I could reliably use Chrome without the
>>>     strangeness that persists, but I can't. With Canary, some menu
>>>     items are not read out by NVDA, but are by Chromevox. Others are
>>>     read out by NVDA and not by Chromevox. I don't want two screen
>>>     reading packages running. When navigating the web and going to a
>>>     new web page, I seem to have to push tab after a new page loads,
>>>     otherwise NVDA doesn't seem to see the content on the page. When
>>>     doing a search on the Google page and when navigating around
>>>     Chrome in general, pressing H to navigate by heading only works
>>>     sometimes, but sometimes locks up until I again press tab to
>>>     force it to get back to the content. The sign-in process in
>>>     Chrome does not work with NVDA. I needed to use Window-eyes to
>>>     get it to read the content. JAWS was also unable to read it. And
>>>     I will post another thread about this, but Hangouts doesn't work
>>>     very well. the Hangouts app seems to be totally inaccessible to
>>>     next branches of NVDA and Canary. And the keyboard shortcuts
>>>     that Google outlines in their manual at
>>>     https://support.google.com/hangouts/answer/3112005?rd=1 don't
>>>     work when navigating to hangouts.google.com
>>>     <http://hangouts.google.com>, and the article doesn't specify
>>>     where exactly these shortcuts are supposed to work. Actually
>>>     many hotkeys that Google outlines interfere with
>>>     browser-specific hotkeys. So I would be happy to transition to
>>>     using Chrome, as Firefox is becoming awful, but that would mean
>>>     a huge loss of productivity for me. So if you have been able to
>>>     get Chrome to work more reliably, I am interested in which
>>>     version of Chrome and which version of NVDA, as well as any
>>>     settings changes that you have made for your specific set-up. If
>>>     this is localized to just me, I am willing to do some
>>>     troubleshooting, but on three computers Chrome's behavior seems
>>>     to be the same. About the only improvement I have seen to Chrome
>>>     Canary is that NVDA reads out a few additional menu items that
>>>     it wasn't reading before. I might try resetting Chrome back to
>>>     default settings and removing all plugins to see if that has any
>>>     effect, but this installation of Chrome is pretty new, so I'm
>>>     not sure if that will help or not.
>>>
>>>     Thanks.
>>>
>>>     On 3/27/2016 4:05 PM, Scott VanDeWalle wrote:
>>>
>>>         Hey.
>>>         I've been using chrome now for a couple of weeks now i believe.
>>>         It is pretty good for the most part.
>>>         hth
>>>
>>>         Scott
>>>
>>>         On 3/27/2016 9:20 AM, Peter Beasley wrote:
>>>
>>>             My problem with Firefox is that I am no longer able to
>>>             use the BBC iplayer. Every time I try to listen to
>>>             something, I get a message telling me that the Adobe
>>>             flash plugin has crashed. This particular plugin is up
>>>             to date and I have been having this problem since early
>>>             December. I know this is not anNVDA issue but would be
>>>             greatful if anyone has any ideas on how I can sort this
>>>             out. I have been using Firefox as my primary browser now
>>>             for nearly 9 and a half years.
>>>
>>>             *From:*mk360 <mailto:mk.seventhson@...>
>>>
>>>             *Sent:*Sunday, March 27, 2016 1:31 PM
>>>
>>>             *To:*nvda@groups.io <mailto:nvda@groups.io>
>>>
>>>             *Subject:*Re: [nvda] Performance degradation in current
>>>             Firefox
>>>
>>>             I've in firefox 45.0.1 and all is working fine.
>>>
>>>             El 27-03-2016 a las 8:46, Mr. Wong Chi Wai, William
>>>             escribió:
>>>
>>>                 I see no problem with NVDA. I recommend you go onto
>>>                 google and search for about:config that can help
>>>                 improve firefox performace and that pretty helps.
>>>
>>>                 Kevin Chao 於27/3/201610:13 寫 道:
>>>
>>>                     One of Chrome's strengths is performance...I
>>>                     experience 0% lag with MVDA when interacting
>>>                     with modern web apps.
>>>
>>>                     On Sat, Mar 26, 2016 at 5:11 PM Supanut
>>>                     Leepaisomboon <supanut2000@...> wrote:
>>>
>>>                         I noticed performance issues with Firefox as
>>>                         well, but not just with NVDA, but Jaws as
>>>                         well, especially on Facebook where the
>>>                         browser lags. Firefox seemed to perform
>>>                         poorly on my Surface 3, despite not having
>>>                         any addons installed.
>>>
>>
>
>





Re: suggestion: giving google chrome a try Performance degradation in current Firefox

Felix G.
 

Hi!
Great! Indeed it looks like some things got ironed out. For example, the document seems to reliably get NVDA's attention after pressing enter in the address field. That's very good news. However, I'm not switching by a long shot. Backspace doesn't speak in edit fields, text I type sometimes gets scrambled because the caret doesn't move as expected when Chrome thinks it should autocorrect something, and it still says "unknown" with disconcerting frequency. Moving through a paragraph in an edit field line by line will invariably announce the entire paragraph. And on inbox.google.com it will still announce what previously had focus rather than what just gained it.
Sorry for sounding more disappointed than I wanted to sound, but this is Google's own website with Google's own browser, so I was expecting that all of the basics would be covered.
Still, here comes the positive ending note: Signing in works beautifully now. That's something I had been struggling with for a long time so as far as that's concerned I'm delighted.
Kind regards,
Felix Grützmacher


On Sat, 2 Apr 2016 at 14:02 Mallard <mallard@...> wrote:
Hello,

But what happens with Captcha solving in Chrome?

Ciao,
Ollie




Il 02/04/2016 09:52, Nimer Jaber ha scritto:
> Hello,
>
> I am very happy to say that my issues at least have been addressed,
> and that browsing with Chrome and NVDA is the best it has ever been.
>
> On 02-Apr-16 02:40, Kevin Chao wrote:
>> Please retry with latest build of Chrome Canary... Accessibility
>> improvements went in!
>> On Sun, Mar 27, 2016 at 4:08 PM Nimer Jaber <nimerjaber1@...>
>> wrote:
>>
>>     Hello,
>>
>>     Please find my answers below. I am hoping that some of these
>>     issues are just the way that my specific configuration is set up.
>>
>>
>>     On 27-Mar-16 17:55, Chris Mullins wrote:
>>>
>>>     Hi Nimer
>>>
>>>     Just a few questions:
>>>
>>>     Can I establish if you  are using Chrome or Canary?
>>>
>>     Canary
>>>
>>>     What is ChromeVox?
>>>
>>     Chromevox is Google's screen reading option that a user can
>>     enable while using Chrome or Chrome OS.
>>
>>>     What is the status of the ‘automatically run say all on page
>>>     load’ in  the NVDA Browse mode dialog?
>>>
>>     Unchecked.
>>
>>>     What is the status of the ‘automatic focus mode for focus
>>>     changes’ in  the NVDA Browse mode dialog?
>>>
>>     Checked
>>
>>>     What is the status of the ‘automatic focus mode for caret
>>>     movement’ in  the NVDA Browse mode dialog?
>>>
>>     Unchecked
>>
>>
>>>     I have   Chrome and Canary and don’t get the same as you re
>>>     pressing tab to see the content in either version of the browser
>>>
>>>     The quick navigation keys operate when you are in browse mode
>>>     and I’ve not had trouble with them in standard web pages with
>>>     eiter browser but there is a problem with them in the settings
>>>     page of Chrome but they seem to work OK in the Canary settings page.
>>>
>>>     The chrome menu reads perfectly in chrome but there are a couple
>>>     of gaps in the Canary version after Zoom and Edit entries.
>>>
>>>     Cheers
>>>
>>>     Chris
>>>
>>>     *From:*Nimer Jaber [mailto:nimerjaber1@...]
>>>     *Sent:* 27 March 2016 22:37
>>>     *To:* nvda@groups.io <mailto:nvda@groups.io>
>>>     *Subject:* Re: suggestion: giving google chrome a try [nvda]
>>>     Performance degradation in current Firefox
>>>
>>>     Unfortunately, Chrome accessibility has a bit of a ways to go. I
>>>     wish it didn't. I wish I could reliably use Chrome without the
>>>     strangeness that persists, but I can't. With Canary, some menu
>>>     items are not read out by NVDA, but are by Chromevox. Others are
>>>     read out by NVDA and not by Chromevox. I don't want two screen
>>>     reading packages running. When navigating the web and going to a
>>>     new web page, I seem to have to push tab after a new page loads,
>>>     otherwise NVDA doesn't seem to see the content on the page. When
>>>     doing a search on the Google page and when navigating around
>>>     Chrome in general, pressing H to navigate by heading only works
>>>     sometimes, but sometimes locks up until I again press tab to
>>>     force it to get back to the content. The sign-in process in
>>>     Chrome does not work with NVDA. I needed to use Window-eyes to
>>>     get it to read the content. JAWS was also unable to read it. And
>>>     I will post another thread about this, but Hangouts doesn't work
>>>     very well. the Hangouts app seems to be totally inaccessible to
>>>     next branches of NVDA and Canary. And the keyboard shortcuts
>>>     that Google outlines in their manual at
>>>     https://support.google.com/hangouts/answer/3112005?rd=1 don't
>>>     work when navigating to hangouts.google.com
>>>     <http://hangouts.google.com>, and the article doesn't specify
>>>     where exactly these shortcuts are supposed to work. Actually
>>>     many hotkeys that Google outlines interfere with
>>>     browser-specific hotkeys. So I would be happy to transition to
>>>     using Chrome, as Firefox is becoming awful, but that would mean
>>>     a huge loss of productivity for me. So if you have been able to
>>>     get Chrome to work more reliably, I am interested in which
>>>     version of Chrome and which version of NVDA, as well as any
>>>     settings changes that you have made for your specific set-up. If
>>>     this is localized to just me, I am willing to do some
>>>     troubleshooting, but on three computers Chrome's behavior seems
>>>     to be the same. About the only improvement I have seen to Chrome
>>>     Canary is that NVDA reads out a few additional menu items that
>>>     it wasn't reading before. I might try resetting Chrome back to
>>>     default settings and removing all plugins to see if that has any
>>>     effect, but this installation of Chrome is pretty new, so I'm
>>>     not sure if that will help or not.
>>>
>>>     Thanks.
>>>
>>>     On 3/27/2016 4:05 PM, Scott VanDeWalle wrote:
>>>
>>>         Hey.
>>>         I've been using chrome now for a couple of weeks now i believe.
>>>         It is pretty good for the most part.
>>>         hth
>>>
>>>         Scott
>>>
>>>         On 3/27/2016 9:20 AM, Peter Beasley wrote:
>>>
>>>             My problem with Firefox is that I am no longer able to
>>>             use the BBC iplayer. Every time I try to listen to
>>>             something, I get a message telling me that the Adobe
>>>             flash plugin has crashed. This particular plugin is up
>>>             to date and I have been having this problem since early
>>>             December. I know this is not anNVDA issue but would be
>>>             greatful if anyone has any ideas on how I can sort this
>>>             out. I have been using Firefox as my primary browser now
>>>             for nearly 9 and a half years.
>>>
>>>             *From:*mk360 <mailto:mk.seventhson@...>
>>>
>>>             *Sent:*Sunday, March 27, 2016 1:31 PM
>>>
>>>             *To:*nvda@groups.io <mailto:nvda@groups.io>
>>>
>>>             *Subject:*Re: [nvda] Performance degradation in current
>>>             Firefox
>>>
>>>             I've in firefox 45.0.1 and all is working fine.
>>>
>>>             El 27-03-2016 a las 8:46, Mr. Wong Chi Wai, William
>>>             escribió:
>>>
>>>                 I see no problem with NVDA. I recommend you go onto
>>>                 google and search for about:config that can help
>>>                 improve firefox performace and that pretty helps.
>>>
>>>                 Kevin Chao 於27/3/201610:13 寫 道:
>>>
>>>                     One of Chrome's strengths is performance...I
>>>                     experience 0% lag with MVDA when interacting
>>>                     with modern web apps.
>>>
>>>                     On Sat, Mar 26, 2016 at 5:11 PM Supanut
>>>                     Leepaisomboon <supanut2000@...> wrote:
>>>
>>>                         I noticed performance issues with Firefox as
>>>                         well, but not just with NVDA, but Jaws as
>>>                         well, especially on Facebook where the
>>>                         browser lags. Firefox seemed to perform
>>>                         poorly on my Surface 3, despite not having
>>>                         any addons installed.
>>>
>>
>
>





Re: suggestion: giving google chrome a try Performance degradation in current Firefox

Mallard
 

Hello,

But what happens with Captcha solving in Chrome?

Ciao,
Ollie

Il 02/04/2016 09:52, Nimer Jaber ha scritto:
Hello,

I am very happy to say that my issues at least have been addressed, and that browsing with Chrome and NVDA is the best it has ever been.

On 02-Apr-16 02:40, Kevin Chao wrote:
Please retry with latest build of Chrome Canary... Accessibility improvements went in!
On Sun, Mar 27, 2016 at 4:08 PM Nimer Jaber <nimerjaber1@...> wrote:

Hello,

Please find my answers below. I am hoping that some of these
issues are just the way that my specific configuration is set up.


On 27-Mar-16 17:55, Chris Mullins wrote:

Hi Nimer

Just a few questions:

Can I establish if you are using Chrome or Canary?
Canary

What is ChromeVox?
Chromevox is Google's screen reading option that a user can
enable while using Chrome or Chrome OS.

What is the status of the ‘automatically run say all on page
load’ in the NVDA Browse mode dialog?
Unchecked.

What is the status of the ‘automatic focus mode for focus
changes’ in the NVDA Browse mode dialog?
Checked

What is the status of the ‘automatic focus mode for caret
movement’ in the NVDA Browse mode dialog?
Unchecked


I have Chrome and Canary and don’t get the same as you re
pressing tab to see the content in either version of the browser

The quick navigation keys operate when you are in browse mode
and I’ve not had trouble with them in standard web pages with
eiter browser but there is a problem with them in the settings
page of Chrome but they seem to work OK in the Canary settings page.

The chrome menu reads perfectly in chrome but there are a couple
of gaps in the Canary version after Zoom and Edit entries.

Cheers

Chris

*From:*Nimer Jaber [mailto:nimerjaber1@...]
*Sent:* 27 March 2016 22:37
*To:* nvda@groups.io <mailto:nvda@groups.io>
*Subject:* Re: suggestion: giving google chrome a try [nvda]
Performance degradation in current Firefox

Unfortunately, Chrome accessibility has a bit of a ways to go. I
wish it didn't. I wish I could reliably use Chrome without the
strangeness that persists, but I can't. With Canary, some menu
items are not read out by NVDA, but are by Chromevox. Others are
read out by NVDA and not by Chromevox. I don't want two screen
reading packages running. When navigating the web and going to a
new web page, I seem to have to push tab after a new page loads,
otherwise NVDA doesn't seem to see the content on the page. When
doing a search on the Google page and when navigating around
Chrome in general, pressing H to navigate by heading only works
sometimes, but sometimes locks up until I again press tab to
force it to get back to the content. The sign-in process in
Chrome does not work with NVDA. I needed to use Window-eyes to
get it to read the content. JAWS was also unable to read it. And
I will post another thread about this, but Hangouts doesn't work
very well. the Hangouts app seems to be totally inaccessible to
next branches of NVDA and Canary. And the keyboard shortcuts
that Google outlines in their manual at
https://support.google.com/hangouts/answer/3112005?rd=1 don't
work when navigating to hangouts.google.com
<http://hangouts.google.com>, and the article doesn't specify
where exactly these shortcuts are supposed to work. Actually
many hotkeys that Google outlines interfere with
browser-specific hotkeys. So I would be happy to transition to
using Chrome, as Firefox is becoming awful, but that would mean
a huge loss of productivity for me. So if you have been able to
get Chrome to work more reliably, I am interested in which
version of Chrome and which version of NVDA, as well as any
settings changes that you have made for your specific set-up. If
this is localized to just me, I am willing to do some
troubleshooting, but on three computers Chrome's behavior seems
to be the same. About the only improvement I have seen to Chrome
Canary is that NVDA reads out a few additional menu items that
it wasn't reading before. I might try resetting Chrome back to
default settings and removing all plugins to see if that has any
effect, but this installation of Chrome is pretty new, so I'm
not sure if that will help or not.

Thanks.

On 3/27/2016 4:05 PM, Scott VanDeWalle wrote:

Hey.
I've been using chrome now for a couple of weeks now i believe.
It is pretty good for the most part.
hth

Scott

On 3/27/2016 9:20 AM, Peter Beasley wrote:

My problem with Firefox is that I am no longer able to
use the BBC iplayer. Every time I try to listen to
something, I get a message telling me that the Adobe
flash plugin has crashed. This particular plugin is up
to date and I have been having this problem since early
December. I know this is not anNVDA issue but would be
greatful if anyone has any ideas on how I can sort this
out. I have been using Firefox as my primary browser now
for nearly 9 and a half years.

*From:*mk360 <mailto:mk.seventhson@...>

*Sent:*Sunday, March 27, 2016 1:31 PM

*To:*nvda@groups.io <mailto:nvda@groups.io>

*Subject:*Re: [nvda] Performance degradation in current
Firefox

I've in firefox 45.0.1 and all is working fine.

El 27-03-2016 a las 8:46, Mr. Wong Chi Wai, William
escribió:

I see no problem with NVDA. I recommend you go onto
google and search for about:config that can help
improve firefox performace and that pretty helps.

Kevin Chao 於27/3/201610:13 寫 道:

One of Chrome's strengths is performance...I
experience 0% lag with MVDA when interacting
with modern web apps.

On Sat, Mar 26, 2016 at 5:11 PM Supanut
Leepaisomboon <@supanut2000> wrote:

I noticed performance issues with Firefox as
well, but not just with NVDA, but Jaws as
well, especially on Facebook where the
browser lags. Firefox seemed to perform
poorly on my Surface 3, despite not having
any addons installed.


Re: Does anyone read Groups.io via the Web Interface?

 

I have always used email.
I do have a few forums I use as such but Ii have always done it via mail.

On 2/04/2016 12:02 p.m., Rosemarie Chavarria wrote:
I do use email.



On 4/1/2016 9:47 AM, Brian's Mail list account wrote:
The answer is then in your hands, Use email.
Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Supanut Leepaisomboon"
<@supanut2000>
To: <nvda@groups.io>
Sent: Friday, April 01, 2016 3:39 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Does anyone read Groups.io via the Web Interface?


Since moving from Freelists, I've completely abandon email in favor of
the web interface, and as I posted earlier, bottom-quoting of messages
in full can be annoying, given that Groups.io does not tag the message
subject lines or the sender with any heading levels. Thus to Jaws or
NVDA users navigating long threads full of quoted messages in their
entirety can be time-consuming and annoying.





.


Re: suggestion: giving google chrome a try Performance degradation in current Firefox

Nimer Jaber
 

Hello,

I am very happy to say that my issues at least have been addressed, and that browsing with Chrome and NVDA is the best it has ever been.

On 02-Apr-16 02:40, Kevin Chao wrote:
Please retry with latest build of Chrome Canary... Accessibility improvements went in!
On Sun, Mar 27, 2016 at 4:08 PM Nimer Jaber <nimerjaber1@...> wrote:
Hello,

Please find my answers below. I am hoping that some of these issues are just the way that my specific configuration is set up.


On 27-Mar-16 17:55, Chris Mullins wrote:

Hi Nimer

Just a few questions:

Can I establish if you  are using Chrome or Canary? 

Canary

What is ChromeVox?

Chromevox is Google's screen reading option that a user can enable while using Chrome or Chrome OS.

What is the status of the ‘automatically run say all on page load’ in  the NVDA Browse mode dialog?

Unchecked.

What is the status of the ‘automatic focus mode for focus changes’ in  the NVDA Browse mode dialog?

Checked

What is the status of the ‘automatic focus mode for caret movement’ in  the NVDA Browse mode dialog?

Unchecked


 

I have   Chrome and Canary and don’t get the same as you re pressing tab to see the content in either version of the browser

The quick navigation keys operate when you are in browse mode and I’ve not had trouble with them in standard web pages with eiter browser but there is a problem with them in the settings page of Chrome but they seem to work OK in the Canary settings page.

The chrome menu reads perfectly in chrome but there are a couple of gaps in the Canary version after Zoom and Edit entries.

 

Cheers

Chris

From: Nimer Jaber [mailto:nimerjaber1@...]
Sent: 27 March 2016 22:37
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: suggestion: giving google chrome a try [nvda] Performance degradation in current Firefox

 

Unfortunately, Chrome accessibility has a bit of a ways to go. I wish it didn't. I wish I could reliably use Chrome without the strangeness that persists, but I can't. With Canary, some menu items are not read out by NVDA, but are by Chromevox. Others are read out by NVDA and not by Chromevox. I don't want two screen reading packages running. When navigating the web and going to a new web page, I seem to have to push tab after a new page loads, otherwise NVDA doesn't seem to see the content on the page. When doing a search on the Google page and when navigating around Chrome in general, pressing H to navigate by heading only works sometimes, but sometimes locks up until I again press tab to force it to get back to the content. The sign-in process in Chrome does not work with NVDA. I needed to use Window-eyes to get it to read the content. JAWS was also unable to read it. And I will post another thread about this, but Hangouts doesn't work very well. the Hangouts app seems to be totally inaccessible to next branches of NVDA and Canary. And the keyboard shortcuts that Google outlines in their manual at https://support.google.com/hangouts/answer/3112005?rd=1 don't work when navigating to hangouts.google.com, and the article doesn't specify where exactly these shortcuts are supposed to work. Actually many hotkeys that Google outlines interfere with browser-specific hotkeys. So I would be happy to transition to using Chrome, as Firefox is becoming awful, but that would mean a huge loss of productivity for me. So if you have been able to get Chrome to work more reliably, I am interested in which version of Chrome and which version of NVDA, as well as any settings changes that you have made for your specific set-up. If this is localized to just me, I am willing to do some troubleshooting, but on three computers Chrome's behavior seems to be the same. About the only improvement I have seen to Chrome Canary is that NVDA reads out a few additional menu items that it wasn't reading before. I might try resetting Chrome back to default settings and removing all plugins to see if that has any effect, but this installation of Chrome is pretty new, so I'm not sure if that will help or not.

Thanks.

On 3/27/2016 4:05 PM, Scott VanDeWalle wrote:

Hey.
I've been using chrome now for a couple of weeks now i believe.
It is pretty good for the most part.
hth

Scott

On 3/27/2016 9:20 AM, Peter Beasley wrote:

My problem with Firefox is that I am no longer able to use the BBC iplayer. Every time I try to listen to something, I get a message telling me that the Adobe flash plugin has crashed. This particular plugin is up to date and I have been having this problem since early December. I know this is not anNVDA issue but would be greatful if anyone has any ideas on how I can sort this out. I have been using Firefox as my primary browser now for nearly 9 and a half years. 

 

From: mk360

Sent: Sunday, March 27, 2016 1:31 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Performance degradation in current Firefox

 

I've in firefox 45.0.1 and all is working fine.

El 27-03-2016 a las 8:46, Mr. Wong Chi Wai, William escribió:

I see no problem with NVDA. I recommend you go onto google and search for about:config that can help improve firefox performace and that pretty helps.

Kevin Chao 27/3/2016 10:13 寫道:

One of Chrome's strengths is performance...I experience 0% lag with MVDA when interacting with modern web apps.

On Sat, Mar 26, 2016 at 5:11 PM Supanut Leepaisomboon <supanut2000@...> wrote:

I noticed performance issues with Firefox as well, but not just with NVDA, but Jaws as well, especially on Facebook where the browser lags. Firefox seemed to perform poorly on my Surface 3, despite not having any addons installed.

 

 

 

 




Re: suggestion: giving google chrome a try Performance degradation in current Firefox

Kevin Chao
 

Please retry with latest build of Chrome Canary... Accessibility improvements went in!

On Sun, Mar 27, 2016 at 4:08 PM Nimer Jaber <nimerjaber1@...> wrote:
Hello,

Please find my answers below. I am hoping that some of these issues are just the way that my specific configuration is set up.


On 27-Mar-16 17:55, Chris Mullins wrote:

Hi Nimer

Just a few questions:

Can I establish if you  are using Chrome or Canary? 

Canary

What is ChromeVox?

Chromevox is Google's screen reading option that a user can enable while using Chrome or Chrome OS.

What is the status of the ‘automatically run say all on page load’ in  the NVDA Browse mode dialog?

Unchecked.

What is the status of the ‘automatic focus mode for focus changes’ in  the NVDA Browse mode dialog?

Checked

What is the status of the ‘automatic focus mode for caret movement’ in  the NVDA Browse mode dialog?

Unchecked


 

I have   Chrome and Canary and don’t get the same as you re pressing tab to see the content in either version of the browser

The quick navigation keys operate when you are in browse mode and I’ve not had trouble with them in standard web pages with eiter browser but there is a problem with them in the settings page of Chrome but they seem to work OK in the Canary settings page.

The chrome menu reads perfectly in chrome but there are a couple of gaps in the Canary version after Zoom and Edit entries.

 

Cheers

Chris

From: Nimer Jaber [mailto:nimerjaber1@...]
Sent: 27 March 2016 22:37
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: suggestion: giving google chrome a try [nvda] Performance degradation in current Firefox

 

Unfortunately, Chrome accessibility has a bit of a ways to go. I wish it didn't. I wish I could reliably use Chrome without the strangeness that persists, but I can't. With Canary, some menu items are not read out by NVDA, but are by Chromevox. Others are read out by NVDA and not by Chromevox. I don't want two screen reading packages running. When navigating the web and going to a new web page, I seem to have to push tab after a new page loads, otherwise NVDA doesn't seem to see the content on the page. When doing a search on the Google page and when navigating around Chrome in general, pressing H to navigate by heading only works sometimes, but sometimes locks up until I again press tab to force it to get back to the content. The sign-in process in Chrome does not work with NVDA. I needed to use Window-eyes to get it to read the content. JAWS was also unable to read it. And I will post another thread about this, but Hangouts doesn't work very well. the Hangouts app seems to be totally inaccessible to next branches of NVDA and Canary. And the keyboard shortcuts that Google outlines in their manual at https://support.google.com/hangouts/answer/3112005?rd=1 don't work when navigating to hangouts.google.com, and the article doesn't specify where exactly these shortcuts are supposed to work. Actually many hotkeys that Google outlines interfere with browser-specific hotkeys. So I would be happy to transition to using Chrome, as Firefox is becoming awful, but that would mean a huge loss of productivity for me. So if you have been able to get Chrome to work more reliably, I am interested in which version of Chrome and which version of NVDA, as well as any settings changes that you have made for your specific set-up. If this is localized to just me, I am willing to do some troubleshooting, but on three computers Chrome's behavior seems to be the same. About the only improvement I have seen to Chrome Canary is that NVDA reads out a few additional menu items that it wasn't reading before. I might try resetting Chrome back to default settings and removing all plugins to see if that has any effect, but this installation of Chrome is pretty new, so I'm not sure if that will help or not.

Thanks.

On 3/27/2016 4:05 PM, Scott VanDeWalle wrote:

Hey.
I've been using chrome now for a couple of weeks now i believe.
It is pretty good for the most part.
hth

Scott

On 3/27/2016 9:20 AM, Peter Beasley wrote:

My problem with Firefox is that I am no longer able to use the BBC iplayer. Every time I try to listen to something, I get a message telling me that the Adobe flash plugin has crashed. This particular plugin is up to date and I have been having this problem since early December. I know this is not anNVDA issue but would be greatful if anyone has any ideas on how I can sort this out. I have been using Firefox as my primary browser now for nearly 9 and a half years. 

 

From: mk360

Sent: Sunday, March 27, 2016 1:31 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Performance degradation in current Firefox

 

I've in firefox 45.0.1 and all is working fine.

El 27-03-2016 a las 8:46, Mr. Wong Chi Wai, William escribió:

I see no problem with NVDA. I recommend you go onto google and search for about:config that can help improve firefox performace and that pretty helps.

Kevin Chao 27/3/2016 10:13 寫道:

One of Chrome's strengths is performance...I experience 0% lag with MVDA when interacting with modern web apps.

On Sat, Mar 26, 2016 at 5:11 PM Supanut Leepaisomboon <supanut2000@...> wrote:

I noticed performance issues with Firefox as well, but not just with NVDA, but Jaws as well, especially on Facebook where the browser lags. Firefox seemed to perform poorly on my Surface 3, despite not having any addons installed.

 

 

 

 



Re: Test Message

christopher hallsworth <challsworth2@...>
 

Got it

On 2 Apr 2016, at 03:50, Peter Chin <peter.chinpk@...> wrote:

Just testing to see if the new list will accept my messages. Thank you.


Re: Test Message

Rosemarie Chavarria
 

Got it.



On 4/1/2016 10:30 PM, Rosemarie Chavarria wrote:
Got it.



On 4/1/2016 7:50 PM, Peter Chin wrote:
Just testing to see if the new list will accept my messages. Thank you.



Re: Test Message

Rosemarie Chavarria
 

Got it.



On 4/1/2016 7:50 PM, Peter Chin wrote:
Just testing to see if the new list will accept my messages. Thank you.


Test Message

Peter Chin
 

Just testing to see if the new list will accept my messages. Thank you.


Re: Does anyone read Groups.io via the Web Interface?

Arlene
 

Me too. It’s easier that way. I will use the gmail site if I’m at another computer. I will check mail that way so I know how to check  e-mail using the gmail site.

 

From: Rosemarie Chavarria [mailto:knitqueen2007@...]
Sent: April-01-16 3:28 PM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Does anyone read Groups.io via the Web Interface?

 

I just use email too. It's so much easier that way.


On 4/1/2016 12:04 PM, Arlene wrote:

I too just use E-mail. It’s quicker!

 

From: Armando via Groups.io [mailto:justformailinglistsmessages@...]
Sent: April-01-16 7:07 AM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Does anyone read Groups.io via the Web Interface?

 

I haven't use the web interface that much. I just use email.

 

Sent from ProtonMail, Swiss-based encrypted email.

Sent from ProtonMail Mobile

 

On Fri, Apr 1, 2016 at 10:01 AM, Brian Vogel <'britechguy@...'> wrote:

Hello All,

          It seems that the vast majority of participants interact with these forums in good, old-fashioned e-mail.  I, however, use the web interface and am in the process of trying to teach myself how to efficiently navigate any given Groups.io page, particularly the main Messages page.  Things are not behaving as I'd expect they should/might when I'm using NVDA.  Some of that is almost certainly ignorance regarding NVDA features, as I'm much newer to NVDA than I am to JAWS, but some of it is also the fact that I don't use a screen reader for my primary access and I think the actual pages are structured in a way that I wouldn't expect or don't understand.

          Here's one example, when I try brute force TABbing to try to navigate to the link column on the upper left of the page containing the "control block" of links for Home, Messages, Post, Calendar, Hangout, and Subscription, I do not land in these directly after the dropdown that announces my name and would give me the option of editing my Profile or Logging out.  I would have expected these to be the "logical nexts" in page traversal, but they're not (or I'm doing something wrong).

         When I begin reading messages I also have not yet figured out how to jump forward to the next message in the forum with ease, and given that bottom quoting can be quite extensive that's something that anyone reading a forum such as this one would need to be able to do.

         There are features of the web interface that simply are not available in the e-mail formats, but I can see how the web interface might not be something that would be easily adopted if it is as complicated for full-time screen reader users as it's proving to be for me.

          This conversation could be useful to others who might like to try using the Groups.io web interface to interact with their subscribed groups.  Since I know that there are a number of folks using Gmail's web interface I have to believe that this one is less complicated, just because of how it appears, but I could be entirely wrong.

Brian

 


Re: Does anyone read Groups.io via the Web Interface?

Rosemarie Chavarria
 

I do use email.

On 4/1/2016 9:47 AM, Brian's Mail list account wrote:
The answer is then in your hands, Use email.
Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Supanut Leepaisomboon" <@supanut2000>
To: <nvda@groups.io>
Sent: Friday, April 01, 2016 3:39 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Does anyone read Groups.io via the Web Interface?


Since moving from Freelists, I've completely abandon email in favor of the web interface, and as I posted earlier, bottom-quoting of messages in full can be annoying, given that Groups.io does not tag the message subject lines or the sender with any heading levels. Thus to Jaws or NVDA users navigating long threads full of quoted messages in their entirety can be time-consuming and annoying.



Re: Does anyone read Groups.io via the Web Interface?

Rosemarie Chavarria
 

I just use email too. It's so much easier that way.



On 4/1/2016 12:04 PM, Arlene wrote:

I too just use E-mail. It’s quicker!

 

From: Armando via Groups.io [mailto:justformailinglistsmessages@...]
Sent: April-01-16 7:07 AM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Does anyone read Groups.io via the Web Interface?

 

I haven't use the web interface that much. I just use email.

 

Sent from ProtonMail, Swiss-based encrypted email.

Sent from ProtonMail Mobile

 

On Fri, Apr 1, 2016 at 10:01 AM, Brian Vogel <'britechguy@...'> wrote:

Hello All,

          It seems that the vast majority of participants interact with these forums in good, old-fashioned e-mail.  I, however, use the web interface and am in the process of trying to teach myself how to efficiently navigate any given Groups.io page, particularly the main Messages page.  Things are not behaving as I'd expect they should/might when I'm using NVDA.  Some of that is almost certainly ignorance regarding NVDA features, as I'm much newer to NVDA than I am to JAWS, but some of it is also the fact that I don't use a screen reader for my primary access and I think the actual pages are structured in a way that I wouldn't expect or don't understand.

          Here's one example, when I try brute force TABbing to try to navigate to the link column on the upper left of the page containing the "control block" of links for Home, Messages, Post, Calendar, Hangout, and Subscription, I do not land in these directly after the dropdown that announces my name and would give me the option of editing my Profile or Logging out.  I would have expected these to be the "logical nexts" in page traversal, but they're not (or I'm doing something wrong).

         When I begin reading messages I also have not yet figured out how to jump forward to the next message in the forum with ease, and given that bottom quoting can be quite extensive that's something that anyone reading a forum such as this one would need to be able to do.

         There are features of the web interface that simply are not available in the e-mail formats, but I can see how the web interface might not be something that would be easily adopted if it is as complicated for full-time screen reader users as it's proving to be for me.

          This conversation could be useful to others who might like to try using the Groups.io web interface to interact with their subscribed groups.  Since I know that there are a number of folks using Gmail's web interface I have to believe that this one is less complicated, just because of how it appears, but I could be entirely wrong.

Brian



Re: Does anyone read Groups.io via the Web Interface?

Gene
 

I didn't expect that some people would resist such techniques.  I'm not sure why other than habit and perhaps because learning such techniques may be a different way of thinking which some people may not find easy initially.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, April 01, 2016 2:04 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Does anyone read Groups.io via the Web Interface?

Gene,

         Well, at least you'll be happy to know that using the screen reader find command for quick navigation is one of the first skills I teach, at least when we're talking about JAWS.   I have not tutored NVDA at all, but were I to do so I know that I would teach the NVDA find command and then using the lovely mouse tracking feature to do a "glide about" search, which can allow you to find out whether what you're looking for might even be present on the given page at all, particularly if you have no real familiarity with what might be on the webpage and it also could be badly designed from an accessibility standpoint.

          I brought up "brute force tabbing" because it is what each and every screen reader user I've ever met has fallen back on "when all else fails" or when they're in a real hurry to get a sense of what might be on a given "strange" web page.  You also have no idea how hard it can be to get people to switch away from brute force searching (what I consider wandering about aimlessly) rather than learning how to do focused exploration.  Some just don't want to do it.  My last two clients were graduate students and both were fairly newly blind and very new to screen readers when I first started tutoring them.  Both found the screen reader search feature a revelation of sorts in terms of making what had been a tedious slog through each webpage a quick task.  I also teach how to use the each browser's built-in find command as well.  Sometimes the browser find is more helpful if you're trying to find out how many instances of a given word are on a page.  Your example of looking for "listen" links is a good example of where a browser find, that reports how many instances of a given word/phrase there are, can give an immediate sense of whether anything is there at all and/or whether you need to be a bit more specific in your search to cull things a bit better.

Brian


Re: Does anyone read Groups.io via the Web Interface?

Gene
 

I did a tutorial years ago before there was an NVDA. It would need a good deal of revision by now.
 
 The first roughly two thirds of Chapter 1, where I work with web pages I provide, would probably not need much revision. 
The rest of the chapter would need a lot. I work with pages on line as they were at the time.  Almost all pages from the sites I work with have changed a lot, as expected. 
 
Those interested in listening to see if it teaches you how to improve your navigation skills or to see if you might want to revise it, may download the tutorial excerpt here:  
 
If I were only including material that didn't need much revision, I would probably have stopped at the part in Chapter 1 where I began working with pages online.
 
I am including the rest of Chapter 1 and chapter 2 in case anyone wants to consider revising it and not for instruction.  Though some people may get useful suggestions by listening to the rest of Chapter 1.  In it's current unrevised old state, most people would probably not find it suitable. 
 
What I'm sending might serve as a good basis to build an Internet tutorial available on sites where NVDA instructional material and material on related matters is offered.
 
Gene

----- Original Message ----- 
Sent: Friday, April 01, 2016 2:04 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Does anyone read Groups.io via the Web Interface?

Gene,

         Well, at least you'll be happy to know that using the screen reader find command for quick navigation is one of the first skills I teach, at least when we're talking about JAWS.   I have not tutored NVDA at all, but were I to do so I know that I would teach the NVDA find command and then using the lovely mouse tracking feature to do a "glide about" search, which can allow you to find out whether what you're looking for might even be present on the given page at all, particularly if you have no real familiarity with what might be on the webpage and it also could be badly designed from an accessibility standpoint.

          I brought up "brute force tabbing" because it is what each and every screen reader user I've ever met has fallen back on "when all else fails" or when they're in a real hurry to get a sense of what might be on a given "strange" web page.  You also have no idea how hard it can be to get people to switch away from brute force searching (what I consider wandering about aimlessly) rather than learning how to do focused exploration.  Some just don't want to do it.  My last two clients were graduate students and both were fairly newly blind and very new to screen readers when I first started tutoring them.  Both found the screen reader search feature a revelation of sorts in terms of making what had been a tedious slog through each webpage a quick task.  I also teach how to use the each browser's built-in find command as well.  Sometimes the browser find is more helpful if you're trying to find out how many instances of a given word are on a page.  Your example of looking for "listen" links is a good example of where a browser find, that reports how many instances of a given word/phrase there are, can give an immediate sense of whether anything is there at all and/or whether you need to be a bit more specific in your search to cull things a bit better.

Brian


Re: Does anyone read Groups.io via the Web Interface?

Arlene
 

I too just use E-mail. It’s quicker!

 

From: Armando via Groups.io [mailto:justformailinglistsmessages@...]
Sent: April-01-16 7:07 AM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Does anyone read Groups.io via the Web Interface?

 

I haven't use the web interface that much. I just use email.

 

Sent from ProtonMail, Swiss-based encrypted email.

Sent from ProtonMail Mobile

 

On Fri, Apr 1, 2016 at 10:01 AM, Brian Vogel <'britechguy@...'> wrote:

Hello All,

          It seems that the vast majority of participants interact with these forums in good, old-fashioned e-mail.  I, however, use the web interface and am in the process of trying to teach myself how to efficiently navigate any given Groups.io page, particularly the main Messages page.  Things are not behaving as I'd expect they should/might when I'm using NVDA.  Some of that is almost certainly ignorance regarding NVDA features, as I'm much newer to NVDA than I am to JAWS, but some of it is also the fact that I don't use a screen reader for my primary access and I think the actual pages are structured in a way that I wouldn't expect or don't understand.

          Here's one example, when I try brute force TABbing to try to navigate to the link column on the upper left of the page containing the "control block" of links for Home, Messages, Post, Calendar, Hangout, and Subscription, I do not land in these directly after the dropdown that announces my name and would give me the option of editing my Profile or Logging out.  I would have expected these to be the "logical nexts" in page traversal, but they're not (or I'm doing something wrong).

         When I begin reading messages I also have not yet figured out how to jump forward to the next message in the forum with ease, and given that bottom quoting can be quite extensive that's something that anyone reading a forum such as this one would need to be able to do.

         There are features of the web interface that simply are not available in the e-mail formats, but I can see how the web interface might not be something that would be easily adopted if it is as complicated for full-time screen reader users as it's proving to be for me.

          This conversation could be useful to others who might like to try using the Groups.io web interface to interact with their subscribed groups.  Since I know that there are a number of folks using Gmail's web interface I have to believe that this one is less complicated, just because of how it appears, but I could be entirely wrong.

Brian


Re: Does anyone read Groups.io via the Web Interface?

 

Gene,

         Well, at least you'll be happy to know that using the screen reader find command for quick navigation is one of the first skills I teach, at least when we're talking about JAWS.   I have not tutored NVDA at all, but were I to do so I know that I would teach the NVDA find command and then using the lovely mouse tracking feature to do a "glide about" search, which can allow you to find out whether what you're looking for might even be present on the given page at all, particularly if you have no real familiarity with what might be on the webpage and it also could be badly designed from an accessibility standpoint.

          I brought up "brute force tabbing" because it is what each and every screen reader user I've ever met has fallen back on "when all else fails" or when they're in a real hurry to get a sense of what might be on a given "strange" web page.  You also have no idea how hard it can be to get people to switch away from brute force searching (what I consider wandering about aimlessly) rather than learning how to do focused exploration.  Some just don't want to do it.  My last two clients were graduate students and both were fairly newly blind and very new to screen readers when I first started tutoring them.  Both found the screen reader search feature a revelation of sorts in terms of making what had been a tedious slog through each webpage a quick task.  I also teach how to use the each browser's built-in find command as well.  Sometimes the browser find is more helpful if you're trying to find out how many instances of a given word are on a page.  Your example of looking for "listen" links is a good example of where a browser find, that reports how many instances of a given word/phrase there are, can give an immediate sense of whether anything is there at all and/or whether you need to be a bit more specific in your search to cull things a bit better.

Brian


Re: NVDA with iTunes.

Gabriel Oria <gabrieljoseph.oria@...>
 

i have no problems with the stable version


Re: NVDA with iTunes.

Matt Turner
 

Well, in general, iTunes works fine.
But when you use the store, and lets say are listening to a song to buy, out of nowhere NVDA crashes, and when you restart NVDA iTunes doesn't work, you have to close it, and reopen it.

On 4/1/2016 7:19 AM, Brian's Mail list account wrote:
When you say crash, what exactly happens and in which version of windows and I tunes. I've not put Itunes on this 7 machine as the latest version never worked on xp and older versions  used to fall over a lot on there.
Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Lino Morales" <linomorales001@...>
To: <nvda@groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2016 6:36 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA with iTunes.


It still crashes for me too Matt. Its a pain in the ass. I thought this
was fixed in the master release too.

On 3/31/2016 1:31 PM, Afrim wrote:
Last time I used NVDA, with itunes, it didn't crash.

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 31, 2016, at 7:25 PM, Matt Turner <meturner2214@...
<mailto:meturner2214@...>> wrote:

Hi folks, I've been testing out iTunes with the master version of NVDA.
And it still crashes nvda in the middle of using the iTunes store.
Someone told me about and old nvda log file, but i can't find it.









Re: Does anyone read Groups.io via the Web Interface?

Brian's Mail list account BY <bglists@...>
 

I tend to test the formatting first to know what technique to adopt. If the header single letter action comes up with the no next header, you can be pretty sure that you are down to the find command. In any given case a good careful and long winded look around a site tends to give an overview you can use to at least know where to look for new content etc.
Even sites that should know better like the infosound one in the uk seem not to use headers, so don't think just because its a blind charity it will be using all the navigation tricks. It might well have been written on a shoestring and in a hurry manually in mostly plain text.

Moving backto mail lists. In my view, as they are first and formost an email list, then I would hope that this method of access was the real main thrust, not the web site.
However as has been said already, expcting tab or k single key order to be as it looks is a big ask. Often it is made to look right for sighted users, and often alternatives are offered for us. I do not like the so called hot keys that are implemented differently in all the browsers, even though they work, often one needs to go into focus mode to use them then back into browse to fiddle with the rest of the page.
Search can be good, but I've known it fail. On the bbc site it seems to fail quite often, when visually and audibly the word is appaarently there. My guess is some obscure use of frames or scripts causes this, but the average user would just get very frustrated.

OK so this discussion is roving away, but I think it does point out the way that we interact with any web site needs to be played with, and to do that often we need to know at least a little about the pitfalls of web sites.
Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene" <gsasner@...>
To: <nvda@groups.io>
Sent: Friday, April 01, 2016 3:59 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Does anyone read Groups.io via the Web Interface?


This message is long.

I have only looked at the archives once and I don't recall details concerning the page. But this question may deal with things I've been able to teach blind Internet users for years through discussions on lists and by means of a tutorial I wrote many years ago. and so I'll comment on them and also discuss related matters. I believe the way using the Internet is taught in general to blind people is poor and that its past time that something were done about it. This is in hopes of both helping people use the Internet better as a result of what I've written here, and perhaps spur movement in the direction of better teaching by perhaps affecting what is written in NVDA instructional materials on the subject. .

Why are you tabbing to get to the top of the page instead of using control home? If the column is far enough below the top that it is inefficient to get to it by tabbing or arrowing from the top, why not use control home then use the find command to search for it?
As far as messages are concerned, at present, there may be no either good or reasonably efficient way to move from one message to the next except for the find command. I haven't used online forums much but in the one or two I did, and in e-mail archives I've looked at, the find command is the only way to do this that I've found. Look for something, if there is anything, that repeats immediately before a new message or very close to the start of a new message. it should be something not found in quoted messages. I haven't used the archives for this list enough to know if something of the sort is available but in some archives, for example, something like the word "posted" may be a good marker. The repeat find command, which I would imagine you already know, is the best way to look for markers down the page and when you load a new page, repeat find still looks for the same thing. It won't change until you do a new search for something different.

These sorts of things are applicable in other situations and blind people should be taught them, in my opinion, before they are taught or are allowed to use things like landmarks. To be a good blind Internet user means knowing how to navigate pages efficiently if they can be, without additional markup specifically for blind people. Many pages do not have such markup or it is not used efficiently. Even headers may not take you where you want to go. On many pages, they will, but on many, they won't and use of the skip links command or the find command is either necessary or much more efficient.

There is far too much emphasis on sighted people adding features to web pages when compared to how little good teaching is done of blind people about basic navigation techniques where such are not available. This not only doesn't teach blind people what they should know, it fosters the attitude among blind Internet users and among a lot, I expect it’s a lot, of teachers, that it’s the sighted designers' responsibility. Of course, ideally sighted designers should use accessibility features. But the Internet is opened to all and it is not implemented in a lot of cases. Rather than giving students the impression that without such features, efficient browsing is not possible, students should be taught that In a lot of instances it is if they know a few simple techniques and how to use logic and inference to think about what to do. On radio station pages, for example, observing and remembering what is observed on many sites leads to the conclusion that the word listen, when searched for from the top of the page, will move the person to a link with the word listen in it. This is very common on such pages. Almost all listen links have the word listen in them.
And it's also logical to think that might be the case if you don't know. So instead of spending time listening to link after link as you move down a page, since logic tells you the word listen is likely to be used, using the find command without looking at the page may save a lot of time if you are not interested in anything on the page except for that.

Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Friday, April 01, 2016 9:01 AM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Does anyone read Groups.io via the Web Interface?


Hello All,

It seems that the vast majority of participants interact with these forums in good, old-fashioned e-mail. I, however, use the web interface and am in the process of trying to teach myself how to efficiently navigate any given Groups.io page, particularly the main Messages page. Things are not behaving as I'd expect they should/might when I'm using NVDA. Some of that is almost certainly ignorance regarding NVDA features, as I'm much newer to NVDA than I am to JAWS, but some of it is also the fact that I don't use a screen reader for my primary access and I think the actual pages are structured in a way that I wouldn't expect or don't understand.

Here's one example, when I try brute force TABbing to try to navigate to the link column on the upper left of the page containing the "control block" of links for Home, Messages, Post, Calendar, Hangout, and Subscription, I do not land in these directly after the dropdown that announces my name and would give me the option of editing my Profile or Logging out. I would have expected these to be the "logical nexts" in page traversal, but they're not (or I'm doing something wrong).

When I begin reading messages I also have not yet figured out how to jump forward to the next message in the forum with ease, and given that bottom quoting can be quite extensive that's something that anyone reading a forum such as this one would need to be able to do.

There are features of the web interface that simply are not available in the e-mail formats, but I can see how the web interface might not be something that would be easily adopted if it is as complicated for full-time screen reader users as it's proving to be for me.

This conversation could be useful to others who might like to try using the Groups.io web interface to interact with their subscribed groups. Since I know that there are a number of folks using Gmail's web interface I have to believe that this one is less complicated, just because of how it appears, but I could be entirely wrong.

Brian