Date   

locked Re: why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?

Arlene
 

That is good to know. Still blind people who wine have no reason to do so. But tit's good to learn should you end up with win ten. Just like wen my xp box bit the dust I ended up with 7.

-----Original Message-----
From: David Moore [mailto:jesusloves1966@...]
Sent: April-19-16 3:01 PM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?

Hi Rosemarie and all,
Every time MS produces a new version of windows, Freedom Scientific's web
site has many tutorials and free webinars on there about how to use a new
version of windows. NVDA users can learn jus as much from these tutorials,
because all of the concepts are the same. Using NVDA does not have anything
to do with using a new version of windows. If anyone wants to look at the
training Freedom Scientific has for win10, here is the link to their web
site:
www.freedomscientific.com
Just find the training link and on that page, there is all kinds of recorded
material that walks you through using many programs with JAWS, but you can
learn just as much if you use NVDA. Take care.


-----Original Message-----
From: Rosemarie Chavarria
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2016 5:45 PM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against
change?

Yes, change can be scary at times. When I upgraded from XP to windows 7, I
wondered if I'd ever be able to learn it. After buying the book and playing
with windows 7, I found it easier to type a program I wanted into the search
box.



-----Original Message-----
From: Shaun Everiss [mailto:@smeveriss]
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2016 1:56 PM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against
change?

Hmmm interesting way to put it.
Lazy, how about frightened, I am certainly scared.
Not wanting, well I have several comercial programs, an advanced screen
reader, and a few other apps which will cost some cash every system change,
so I do actually want to keep going till I need to update those.
Now if someone offered me like a super deal out of the blue then yeah I am a
sucker for packages so I would take it.
Another issue is the environment you are in.
My home environment has users in it who have not and are not wanting to
change.
The same tasks I have been doing for the last while will continue to be the
same and I see no reason to bother changing, ofcause its like I am in a
stagnent pool.
Life is that pool, its not moved much since I left university.
There is only so many positions in that pool you can be in.
There are not that many.



On 19/04/2016 8:40 p.m., Christo Vorster wrote:
Hi Angela

I agree with you, but such are people universally. There will always be
people who will make comments on what others say.

I think that deep down, most of us who are resistant to change are
somewhat lazy to learn new things, but so be it. It doesn't mean that it
make you a lazy person. Often the term "lazy" actually means "just not
wanting".

The saying goes: "a change is as good as a holiday", so lets enjoy our
changes, when we make them.

My opinion: if you want to change, do it. If you don't want to, do it. The
choice always is yours. I just feel that those wanting to change just for
the sake of change must take the consequences if they make a wrong choice
and in the same way, we who don't want to change, leave us alone.

Sometimes you find people, especially concerning computer software, who
look down on those not using the same programs as they do. My approach
towards them is just to leave them be.

To be honest, I experienced it with many JAWS-users, and believe me, I
used JAWS until I was forced to upgrade to Win 10, because that is what we
teach at the college where I am employed. Please don't get me wrong, I
don't regret changing to NVDA, I am very happy and believe that NVDA is a
much better package, but the people I refer to, am of the opinion that I
am stupid, and then many of them are using illegitimate copies.

Have a nice day

Christo

-----Original Message-----
From: Angela Delicata via Groups.io
[mailto:angeladelicata=libero.it@groups.io]
Sent: Tuesday, 19 April 2016 10:20 AM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against
change?

Always the same old discussions you can find on a mailing list for blind.
I will say my opinion: I am not against change, I am just lazy to learn
new stuff and do it only when it is really necessary.
I am not perfect, but only God is.
I think one can use whatever program he/she likes and everyone's choice
must be respected.

I wish I would never read such things anymore, but blind are hard to
change.

Ciao
Angela from Italy

Il 19/04/2016 ha scritto:


Van: n8mnx@... [mailto:n8mnx@...]
Verzonden: dinsdag 19 april 2016 4:14
Aan: nvda@groups.io
Onderwerp: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so
against change?



I think that maybe blind people are not against change for the
sake of change but it's the fear that their old favorite programs
won't work and how accessable will the new os be or how accessable
will the new programs be. I to did like windows xp with outlook
express and when I was concitering upgrading to windows 7 I was
hesitent because I did not know what email program would work and be
accessable. I did of course upgrade and used windows live mail and
when I began to have issues with it I went to thunderbird and I now
have windows 10 and I still use thunderbird. I think that the reason
that we all like outlook express isthat it is just a simple email
program with nobells and whistles like calendars or features that we
don't need or can't use. Outlook express will always be the best
email program but we have adapted to other programs but that does not
mean that we are happy with them we just adjust. We all don't like
change but we can and do adapt but we don't like it. With new
versions of windows there may be features that we don't need or want
or we can't use but we use what we want to use or what we can use. I
know that every one has their screen reader of choice and they think
that theirs is the best I use nvdathen there is the issue of winamp
it's no longer supported but I still have not been convinced that there
is a better program so I will just keep using it.
We should upgrade if we need to but we chould not have change fordced
upon us this should be our choice. Think of the Omish people they
don't have cars they still use horse and buggies that is their choice
and so is somones choice if they still use windows xp if they are
willing to take the risk thats their choice and not ours.
Brian Sackrider

On 4/18/2016 9:48 PM, Pauline Smith wrote:

Change is hard, but we must adjust. I wasn't fond of Win 7 when I
got this computer, but I have adjusted. When a colleague told me how
to find and put terms into the search bar by hitting the Start
button, much frustration has been saved. Now, I'm comtemplating
doing the upgrade to Win 10. I just wanted to make sure I knew what
I was getting into before doing it.

Pauline



On 4/18/2016 6:27 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:

Rosemarie Chavarria wrote, in regard to a friend of hers who insisted
on staying with WinXP, "I asked him why and his answer was that it
was simpler to work with."

And I can't count the times I've heard this, about way more than
Windows, and thought, "No, it's not easier to work with - it's what
you're used to." Win XP was an OS I loved and Microsoft has the
annoying habit of alternating "good" and "bad" versions of Windows.
The number of things that require manual intervention from the user
in XP is huge compared to later versions, particularly Windows 7 forward.
And, when it comes down to it, even in the "ugly" versions of Windows
the similarities to their predecessors is at least as strong as the
differences, but the differences are where people are required to
learn something new.

David Moore's comments regarding those who live to be 100, or near
it, really resonate with me. My grandmother died in the 1990s and
was in her 90s at the time. When I think about what technology was at
her birth and the amount of change she and her age cohort had to go
through I am amazed. I don't know if I could be as flexible as they
were. While the pace of change has picked up, particularly in the
cyber world, the majority of changes I've lived through (I'm just
short of 54 years old) feel to me much more like refinements on very
familiar themes rather than complete divergences from what came
before. That was not true for my grandparents at all, and my parents
experienced more revolutionary changes than I have, too. I think my
only two revolutions were the introduction of the personal computer and
the ascendance of the internet.

Brian










---
Questa e-mail è stata controllata per individuare virus con Avast
antivirus.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus








locked Re: why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?

Arlene
 

No it doesn’t. Also too, Yes blind people do wine over change.But, We all need to take into consideration their walk of life. If they can’t afford new equipment for many reasons. Yes they should update if something like xp is no longer usable on the web. Also, most blind people do need to quit wining! It makes it look bad for those who want to change but can’t afford it!  I will change if I have to. I’m saving money to get myself a new hard drive so I can update to ten if I have to.  I will learn ten if I have to.  Don’t worry I’m not wining! Loll! 

 

From: David Moore [mailto:jesusloves1966@...]
Sent: April-19-16 3:51 PM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?

 

Hi Jene,

That is exactly what I do. It sure does not hurt to have two screen readers at your finger tips either.

You can have JAWS as a 40 minute demo mode just in case, and JAWS users can get NVDA for free. You should not be attacked if you use two screen readers LOL! That type of memorizing will not get you around on many sites you have never been on. Take care all.

 

 

From: Gene

Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2016 6:07 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?

 

I'm not sure what you have in mind by someone telling you.  I'll discuss the Internet in the rest of this message. 

 

There are certain structures that you have to use the virtual mouse of your screen-reader to activate and those represent a lack of accessibility.  but those who design sites often know little, if anything, about accessibility.  And even if a site is accessible, if a bnlind person doesn't know how to find things on sites efficiently, they may waste a lot of time doing unnecessary things.  For example, they may tab through item after item on a site when using the find command might allow them to find something very quickly.  Continuing with the Internet as an example, to use the Internet to anywhere near it's potential in terms of efficiency, you have to know how to work with sites you haven't worked with before.  A good deal of my Internet use is doing google searches and looking up information on sites I've never used or seldom used.  Some people micromemorize sites, for example, memorizing that this or that is the second heading level 4 on a site.  You simply can't use the Internet well in terms of working with large numbers of sites if you rely on such micromemorization.  If people want to micromemorize this or that item on a site they use constantly, I'm not telling them that they shouldn't.  but when I see people engage in such micromemorization, it raises the question for me if they know how to work with sites efficiently in general. 

 

When I'm on a site I use often and I want to find the editorial link, I use the find command and search for the link.  If it were a heading and I could get there efficiently by moving by heading, I might do that.  but it isn't.  the find command is the only way I know to find the link efficiently on the site. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2016 4:15 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?

 

Gene, you are right, I understand your point. But it would be helpful if someone tells you what are the changes, so that you can explore a website or programme more efficiently. I don't have an overview of pages etc. so, I go exploring. But this takes some time. And if buttons change behaviour, I mean if you could activate them by using space bar or enter in the past and now they need some other way to be activated, that's a bit a hassle if no one could assist you.

 

Best, Katty

 

Van: Gene [mailto:gsasner@...]
Verzonden: dinsdag 19 april 2016 10:41
Aan: nvda@groups.io
Onderwerp: Re: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?

 

That is true in some cases but in many, that is a real exaggeration and reflects users not understanding how to learn the structure of a program or not understanding a new structure such as ribbons. 

 

Lots of times, if a web site changes, what is desired can easily be found on the site by using the find command.  For example, from time to time, Send Space has changed the way you begin a file download.  There might have been a link that says download, for example.  That link was changed to a button but if someone is used to using the links list, an artificial structure that separates them from the page and doesn't know how to explore the page itself, they may well have considerable difficulty and may need help to find out how to download again.  This does not need to be a crisis.  All that need be done is to go to the top of the page and use your screen-reader's find command to search the page for the word download.  You will immediately see that download is now a button and you can then simply type the letter b when a Send Space download page opens to move to it. 

If a program changes its structure, such as by adopting ribbons, if you know how to look through ribbons, you can look through them and, if desired, make notes of the key combinations to perform certain functions.  This is similar to what you might do in a menu program.  Far too many blind people are taught to do things by rote and so any change may be a crisis.  In many cases, if taught properly, it can be just an inconvenience.

 

I'm not saying there aren't real problems such as when a program becomes inaccessible or much less so with a new release.  But I am saying that many problems could be reduced to inconveniences if blind people were taught to conceptualize what they are doing and not to take certain actions by rote without  real understanding of how something is structured and how to learn programs by trying different ways of learning about it such as looking through menus or ribbons.

 

Some blind people will find such ways of conceptualizing and learning difficult and some will find them easy and some in between.  But many people are never taught such things so easy, difficult or in between for them, they never get to find out.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2016 2:47 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?

 

For seeing persons, compare the situation of the blind with the following: you are used to go to your local supermarket, and nearly to find everything you need on the shelves by almost walking asleep (you know what to find where). At a certain day, everything is changed: the name of the store, the products inside, the position of the products on the shelves, the shelves themselves, the several departments (bakery, vegetables, …) everything you can think of is changed. Unfortunately you are forced to wander through the store without having an overview of the store, no scanning of the shelves with the eyes, … After a mornth, you are used to the new store and products and their place in the store, everything changes again and you can start all over again. Isn't this a nightmare? Well, that's what the blind are forced to do every time a website, a programme, … changes.

 

In fact, I should post this to the accessible googlegroup.

 

Best, Katty

 

Van: n8mnx@... [mailto:n8mnx@...]
Verzonden: dinsdag 19 april 2016 4:14
Aan: nvda@groups.io
Onderwerp: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?

 

    I think that maybe blind people are not against change for the sake of change but it's the fear that their old favorite programs won't work and how accessable will the new os be or how accessable will the new programs be.  I to did like windows xp with outlook express and when I was concitering upgrading to windows 7 I was hesitent because I did not know what email program would work and be accessable.  I did of course upgrade and used windows live mail and when I began to have issues with it I went to thunderbird and I now have windows 10 and I still use thunderbird.  I think that the reason that we all like outlook express isthat it is just a simple email program with nobells and whistles like calendars or features that we don't need or can't use.  Outlook express will always be the best email program but we have adapted to other programs but that does not mean that we are happy with them we just adjust.  We all don't like change but we can and do adapt but we don't like it.  With new versions of windows there may be features that we don't need or want or we can't use but we use what we want to use or what we can use.  I know that every one has their screen reader of choice and they think that theirs is the best I use nvdathen there is the issue of winamp it's no longer supported but I still have not been convinced that there is a better program so I will just keep using it.  We should upgrade if we need to but we chould not have change fordced upon us this should be our choice.  Think of the Omish people they don't have cars they still use horse and buggies that is their choice and so is somones choice if they still use windows xp if they are willing to take the risk thats their choice and not ours. 
Brian Sackrider  

On 4/18/2016 9:48 PM, Pauline Smith wrote:

Change is hard, but we must adjust.  I wasn't fond of Win 7 when I got this computer, but I have adjusted.  When a colleague told me how to find and put terms into the search bar by hitting the Start button, much frustration has been saved.  Now, I'm comtemplating doing the upgrade to Win 10.  I just wanted to make sure I knew what I was getting into before doing it.

Pauline

On 4/18/2016 6:27 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:

Rosemarie Chavarria wrote, in regard to a friend of hers who insisted on staying with WinXP, "I asked him why and his answer was that it was simpler to work with."

And I can't count the times I've heard this, about way more than Windows, and thought, "No, it's not easier to work with - it's what you're used to."  Win XP was an OS I loved and Microsoft has the annoying habit of alternating "good" and "bad" versions of Windows.  The number of things that require manual intervention from the user in XP is huge compared to later versions, particularly Windows 7 forward.  And, when it comes down to it, even in the "ugly" versions of Windows the similarities to their predecessors is at least as strong as the differences, but the differences are where people are required to learn something new.

David Moore's comments regarding those who live to be 100, or near it, really resonate with me.  My grandmother died in the 1990s and was in her 90s at the time. When I think about what technology was at her birth and the amount of change she and her age cohort had to go through I am amazed.  I don't know if I could be as flexible as they were.  While the pace of change has picked up, particularly in the cyber world, the majority of changes I've lived through (I'm just short of 54 years old) feel to me much more like refinements on very familiar themes rather than complete divergences from what came before.  That was not true for my grandparents at all, and my parents experienced more revolutionary changes than I have, too.  I think my only two revolutions were the introduction of the personal computer and the ascendance of the internet.

Brian

 

 


NVDA & Mathematical Notation

 

Hello All,

         My most recent client is a student who is going to be taking a number of statistics classes with a lot of material containing complex mathematical formulae.  I have repeatedly heard that NVDA is by far the best screen reader when it comes to reading mathematical notation correctly.  That being said, I do not know either:

  • how one goes about making NVDA do this
  • what formatting is required in the electronic text, whether online or in PDF files (or whatever), that is necessary for NVDA to work with them

any guidance that's specific to NVDA, or even broader information regarding dealing with mathematical notation assistive technology, would be much appreciated.  Any non-NVDA info can be taken off list, if that's required, but this is such a peculiar niche that pulling in as much information as possible would be good for future readers of the forum.

I have to believe that, no matter how good any of the screen readers or the like have gotten, that there will be occasions where a real, live human reader is going to be necessary to deal with certain texts, particularly those only available "on paper."  I've yet to find anything, e.g. OpenBook or the like, that can "snap" math texts and create anything functional from anything other than the bits of regular text between the math.  Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Brian


locked Re: This is the moderator speaking: Question Regarding Eloquence for NVDA from Code Factory

David Moore
 

I agree.
I am very interested in being able to access the react OS, because it is open source, which I love, and it is free. Go React.

-----Original Message-----
From: Shaun Everiss
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2016 4:40 PM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] This is the moderator speaking: Question Regarding Eloquence for NVDA from Code Factory

Hmmm but with pete I am interested in react os working for us.
If I could run all my windows apps on a desktop, but not have to worry
about actual windows including net programs, games, etc then it may be
my ticket away from windows without going to linux immediately.



On 20/04/2016 6:41 a.m., Lino Morales wrote:
Totally agree with you Dave. Pete is like our buddy Josh on here. Dude
wants Keynote to work with NVDA. Seriously! That's old school and ain't
gonna happen. We've gotten so much better with speech synths int he past
20 puls years.


On 4/18/2016 3:27 PM, David Moore wrote:
Hi Pete,
Thank you so much, because I have made the same argument on many
lists. Try using a horse and buggy on a free way. There comes a time
when you just have to learn something new and change with the times.
People who live over 100, say this is the main thing you have to do to
live that long. Sometimes you have to forget the past and move on
toward the future. Someday, I will be able to drive my own car, and I
will embrace it. NVDA works so well in win10, and win10 is like a
mantion over a log cabbin. We should have choice, but like you said,
it can’t get in the way of the world changing for the good. Take care.
If it takes buying new programs, it must be done because of the coming
future. Start saving now, so you can prepare for the beautiful tech
future that is to come. Have a great one.
*From:* Pete <mailto:emac00@...>
*Sent:* Monday, April 18, 2016 2:43 PM
*To:* nvda@groups.io <mailto:nvda@groups.io>
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] This is the moderator speaking: Question
Regarding Eloquence for NVDA from Code Factory

Same thing for people wanting windows x p.
I am getting ready to install w10, have to check on if w e 9 works
in w10 or not. the f s people told me j16 works in w10 and sounds like
people are using w 10 with nvda.
Change is good but one should not be forced to loose freedom of choice.
On 4/18/2016 2:22 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:

Pete wrote, "It's kind of like the whole e-mail thing with people
wanting to use outlook express except people keep telling them to use
Thunderbird or Microsoft outlook or window live mail or some thing
like that."

This isn't a "freedom of choice" issue, it's a simple fact of life
that certain programs, Outlook Express being one example, effectively
cease to exist when official support ends. No one is guaranteed, nor
should they expect, that anything that they're using will be
available in perpetuity.

I discourage people from using Outlook Express because the only
existing versions available are hacks based on who knows what code
base and with what vulnerabilities. Since e-mail clients constantly
interact with the internet this is a real concern.

While such a concern is not present regarding voice synthesis, things
will come, and go, in that arena as well. There is very likely going
to come a point where you, for any you, have to let go of something
you're used to because it is not being supported or carried forward.
Getting used to this, even though it's painful, is essential in the
cyber world unless you want to drive yourself crazy. I've seen a lot
of people over the years who have expended far more energy trying to
hold on to something than would have been expended to learn the new
that's available to them.

Brian


locked Re: This is the moderator speaking: Question Regarding Eloquence for NVDA from Code Factory

David Moore
 

Hi,
With a 125 meg hard drive, how can you even have any programs or documents on there? Do you back them up to a floppy disk?
 
 

From: Carlos
Sent: Monday, April 18, 2016 7:11 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] This is the moderator speaking: Question Regarding Eloquence for NVDA from Code Factory
 

Hello Again:

    A description of my PC:

 

    *Packard Bell Legend V

    *386SX 16MHz Processor

    *125 Megabyte Hard Disk

    *EGA Video Card

    *14 Inch Monitor

    *Sound Blaster I Sound Card

    *101 PS/2 Keyboard/Logitech Three Button Mouse w/Rubber Ball on Bottom

    *Windows 3.11/MS DOS 6.22

    *Norton Commander 5, Microsoft Office Professional

    *NVDA 5.x

 

    Long live the 90's!!!

    *

On 4/18/2016 3:27 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:

Rosemarie Chavarria wrote, in regard to a friend of hers who insisted on staying with WinXP, "I asked him why and his answer was that it was simpler to work with."

And I can't count the times I've heard this, about way more than Windows, and thought, "No, it's not easier to work with - it's what you're used to."  Win XP was an OS I loved and Microsoft has the annoying habit of alternating "good" and "bad" versions of Windows.  The number of things that require manual intervention from the user in XP is huge compared to later versions, particularly Windows 7 forward.  And, when it comes down to it, even in the "ugly" versions of Windows the similarities to their predecessors is at least as strong as the differences, but the differences are where people are required to learn something new.

David Moore's comments regarding those who live to be 100, or near it, really resonate with me.  My grandmother died in the 1990s and was in her 90s at the time. When I think about what technology was at her birth and the amount of change she and her age cohort had to go through I am amazed.  I don't know if I could be as flexible as they were.  While the pace of change has picked up, particularly in the cyber world, the majority of changes I've lived through (I'm just short of 54 years old) feel to me much more like refinements on very familiar themes rather than complete divergences from what came before.  That was not true for my grandparents at all, and my parents experienced more revolutionary changes than I have, too.  I think my only two revolutions were the introduction of the personal computer and the ascendance of the internet.

Brian


-- 
Carlos Gonzalez - Los Angeles, CA. - gmjc341961@...


Question/Do You Hear a Difference with ESpeak with the new Master and Next Versions?

David Goldfield
 

Hello.
I noticed that ESpeak has a more harsher sound to it with the latest
next and master versions, compared to 2016.1 and earlier releases. I
have filed a ticket about this and it seems like some people are
noticing it on some machines while others are not. I suppose I can get
used to it but I find it just so much harsher and am wondering what
others who are running these versions perceive?


locked Re: why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?

David Moore
 

Traci, my wife, is sighted and she had to do that with two of our favorite super markets. they totally changed, but she did not complain, she kept going and it took her three or four times to find what she was used to running to before. It took her 30 more minutes to shop those four times. She just sucked it up and relearned it. That is what the blind need to do instead of complaining and whining.
 
 

Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2016 3:47 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?
 

For seeing persons, compare the situation of the blind with the following: you are used to go to your local supermarket, and nearly to find everything you need on the shelves by almost walking asleep (you know what to find where). At a certain day, everything is changed: the name of the store, the products inside, the position of the products on the shelves, the shelves themselves, the several departments (bakery, vegetables, …) everything you can think of is changed. Unfortunately you are forced to wander through the store without having an overview of the store, no scanning of the shelves with the eyes, … After a mornth, you are used to the new store and products and their place in the store, everything changes again and you can start all over again. Isn't this a nightmare? Well, that's what the blind are forced to do every time a website, a programme, … changes.

 

In fact, I should post this to the accessible googlegroup.

 

Best, Katty

 

Van: n8mnx@... [mailto:n8mnx@...]
Verzonden: dinsdag 19 april 2016 4:14
Aan: nvda@groups.io
Onderwerp: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?

 

    I think that maybe blind people are not against change for the sake of change but it's the fear that their old favorite programs won't work and how accessable will the new os be or how accessable will the new programs be.  I to did like windows xp with outlook express and when I was concitering upgrading to windows 7 I was hesitent because I did not know what email program would work and be accessable.  I did of course upgrade and used windows live mail and when I began to have issues with it I went to thunderbird and I now have windows 10 and I still use thunderbird.  I think that the reason that we all like outlook express isthat it is just a simple email program with nobells and whistles like calendars or features that we don't need or can't use.  Outlook express will always be the best email program but we have adapted to other programs but that does not mean that we are happy with them we just adjust.  We all don't like change but we can and do adapt but we don't like it.  With new versions of windows there may be features that we don't need or want or we can't use but we use what we want to use or what we can use.  I know that every one has their screen reader of choice and they think that theirs is the best I use nvdathen there is the issue of winamp it's no longer supported but I still have not been convinced that there is a better program so I will just keep using it.  We should upgrade if we need to but we chould not have change fordced upon us this should be our choice.  Think of the Omish people they don't have cars they still use horse and buggies that is their choice and so is somones choice if they still use windows xp if they are willing to take the risk thats their choice and not ours. 
Brian Sackrider  

On 4/18/2016 9:48 PM, Pauline Smith wrote:

Change is hard, but we must adjust.  I wasn't fond of Win 7 when I got this computer, but I have adjusted.  When a colleague told me how to find and put terms into the search bar by hitting the Start button, much frustration has been saved.  Now, I'm comtemplating doing the upgrade to Win 10.  I just wanted to make sure I knew what I was getting into before doing it.

Pauline

On 4/18/2016 6:27 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:

Rosemarie Chavarria wrote, in regard to a friend of hers who insisted on staying with WinXP, "I asked him why and his answer was that it was simpler to work with."

And I can't count the times I've heard this, about way more than Windows, and thought, "No, it's not easier to work with - it's what you're used to."  Win XP was an OS I loved and Microsoft has the annoying habit of alternating "good" and "bad" versions of Windows.  The number of things that require manual intervention from the user in XP is huge compared to later versions, particularly Windows 7 forward.  And, when it comes down to it, even in the "ugly" versions of Windows the similarities to their predecessors is at least as strong as the differences, but the differences are where people are required to learn something new.

David Moore's comments regarding those who live to be 100, or near it, really resonate with me.  My grandmother died in the 1990s and was in her 90s at the time. When I think about what technology was at her birth and the amount of change she and her age cohort had to go through I am amazed.  I don't know if I could be as flexible as they were.  While the pace of change has picked up, particularly in the cyber world, the majority of changes I've lived through (I'm just short of 54 years old) feel to me much more like refinements on very familiar themes rather than complete divergences from what came before.  That was not true for my grandparents at all, and my parents experienced more revolutionary changes than I have, too.  I think my only two revolutions were the introduction of the personal computer and the ascendance of the internet.

Brian

 

 


Re: AW: why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?

David Moore
 

Hi,
I grew up in the country of Ohio, and being totally blind, I lived in New York City for a while just for the experience and the adventure. I have lived in Columbus, Ohio since then and Columbus is a large city. I could have just stayed in my little farm town.

-----Original Message-----
From: Eigeldinger Simon
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2016 4:45 AM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: AW: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?

Hi,

+1
Sometimes change is pretty interesting.

Greetings,
Simon



Mit freundlichen Grüßen

Simon Eigeldinger
Sekretariat Nebengebäude 2
Nebengebäude 2, OG1
-------------------------
Stadt Hohenems
Kaiser-Franz-Josef-Straße 4
6845 Hohenems
Österreich
Tel.: +43 (0)5576/7101-1211
Fax: +43 (0)5576/7101-1119
E-Mail: simon.eigeldinger@...
Web: www.hohenems.at

Diese Nachricht und allfällige angehängte Dokumente sind vertraulich und nur für den/die Adressaten bestimmt.
-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Angela Delicata via Groups.io [mailto:angeladelicata=libero.it@groups.io]
Gesendet: Dienstag, 19. April 2016 10:20
An: nvda@groups.io
Betreff: Re: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?

Always the same old discussions you can find on a mailing list for blind.
I will say my opinion: I am not against change, I am just lazy to learn
new stuff and do it only when it is really necessary.
I am not perfect, but only God is.
I think one can use whatever program he/she likes and everyone's choice
must be respected.

I wish I would never read such things anymore, but blind are hard to change.

Ciao
Angela from Italy

Il 19/04/2016 ha scritto:


Van: n8mnx@... [mailto:n8mnx@...]
Verzonden: dinsdag 19 april 2016 4:14
Aan: nvda@groups.io
Onderwerp: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against
change?



I think that maybe blind people are not against change for the sake
of change but it's the fear that their old favorite programs won't work
and how accessable will the new os be or how accessable will the new
programs be. I to did like windows xp with outlook express and when I
was concitering upgrading to windows 7 I was hesitent because I did not
know what email program would work and be accessable. I did of course
upgrade and used windows live mail and when I began to have issues with
it I went to thunderbird and I now have windows 10 and I still use
thunderbird. I think that the reason that we all like outlook express
isthat it is just a simple email program with nobells and whistles like
calendars or features that we don't need or can't use. Outlook express
will always be the best email program but we have adapted to other
programs but that does not mean that we are happy with them we just
adjust. We all don't like change but we can and do adapt but we don't
like it. With new versions of windows there may be features that we
don't need or want or we can't use but we use what we want to use or
what we can use. I know that every one has their screen reader of
choice and they think that theirs is the best I use nvdathen there is
the issue of winamp it's no longer supported but I still have not been
convinced that there is a better program so I will just keep using it.
We should upgrade if we need to but we chould not have change fordced
upon us this should be our choice. Think of the Omish people they don't
have cars they still use horse and buggies that is their choice and so
is somones choice if they still use windows xp if they are willing to
take the risk thats their choice and not ours.
Brian Sackrider

On 4/18/2016 9:48 PM, Pauline Smith wrote:

Change is hard, but we must adjust. I wasn't fond of Win 7 when I got
this computer, but I have adjusted. When a colleague told me how to
find and put terms into the search bar by hitting the Start button, much
frustration has been saved. Now, I'm comtemplating doing the upgrade to
Win 10. I just wanted to make sure I knew what I was getting into
before doing it.

Pauline



On 4/18/2016 6:27 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:

Rosemarie Chavarria wrote, in regard to a friend of hers who insisted on
staying with WinXP, "I asked him why and his answer was that it was
simpler to work with."

And I can't count the times I've heard this, about way more than
Windows, and thought, "No, it's not easier to work with - it's what
you're used to." Win XP was an OS I loved and Microsoft has the annoying
habit of alternating "good" and "bad" versions of Windows. The number
of things that require manual intervention from the user in XP is huge
compared to later versions, particularly Windows 7 forward. And, when
it comes down to it, even in the "ugly" versions of Windows the
similarities to their predecessors is at least as strong as the
differences, but the differences are where people are required to learn
something new.

David Moore's comments regarding those who live to be 100, or near it,
really resonate with me. My grandmother died in the 1990s and was in
her 90s at the time. When I think about what technology was at her birth
and the amount of change she and her age cohort had to go through I am
amazed. I don't know if I could be as flexible as they were. While the
pace of change has picked up, particularly in the cyber world, the
majority of changes I've lived through (I'm just short of 54 years old)
feel to me much more like refinements on very familiar themes rather
than complete divergences from what came before. That was not true for
my grandparents at all, and my parents experienced more revolutionary
changes than I have, too. I think my only two revolutions were the
introduction of the personal computer and the ascendance of the internet.

Brian










---
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locked Re: why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?

David Moore
 

That is a great point. Pages that have buttons to play videos, act so differently on different pages. If only you could play a video on all web sites the same.
 
 

Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2016 5:15 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?
 

Gene, you are right, I understand your point. But it would be helpful if someone tells you what are the changes, so that you can explore a website or programme more efficiently. I don't have an overview of pages etc. so, I go exploring. But this takes some time. And if buttons change behaviour, I mean if you could activate them by using space bar or enter in the past and now they need some other way to be activated, that's a bit a hassle if no one could assist you.

 

Best, Katty

 

Van: Gene [mailto:gsasner@...]
Verzonden: dinsdag 19 april 2016 10:41
Aan: nvda@groups.io
Onderwerp: Re: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?

 

That is true in some cases but in many, that is a real exaggeration and reflects users not understanding how to learn the structure of a program or not understanding a new structure such as ribbons. 

 

Lots of times, if a web site changes, what is desired can easily be found on the site by using the find command.  For example, from time to time, Send Space has changed the way you begin a file download.  There might have been a link that says download, for example.  That link was changed to a button but if someone is used to using the links list, an artificial structure that separates them from the page and doesn't know how to explore the page itself, they may well have considerable difficulty and may need help to find out how to download again.  This does not need to be a crisis.  All that need be done is to go to the top of the page and use your screen-reader's find command to search the page for the word download.  You will immediately see that download is now a button and you can then simply type the letter b when a Send Space download page opens to move to it. 

If a program changes its structure, such as by adopting ribbons, if you know how to look through ribbons, you can look through them and, if desired, make notes of the key combinations to perform certain functions.  This is similar to what you might do in a menu program.  Far too many blind people are taught to do things by rote and so any change may be a crisis.  In many cases, if taught properly, it can be just an inconvenience.

 

I'm not saying there aren't real problems such as when a program becomes inaccessible or much less so with a new release.  But I am saying that many problems could be reduced to inconveniences if blind people were taught to conceptualize what they are doing and not to take certain actions by rote without  real understanding of how something is structured and how to learn programs by trying different ways of learning about it such as looking through menus or ribbons.

 

Some blind people will find such ways of conceptualizing and learning difficult and some will find them easy and some in between.  But many people are never taught such things so easy, difficult or in between for them, they never get to find out.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2016 2:47 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?

 

For seeing persons, compare the situation of the blind with the following: you are used to go to your local supermarket, and nearly to find everything you need on the shelves by almost walking asleep (you know what to find where). At a certain day, everything is changed: the name of the store, the products inside, the position of the products on the shelves, the shelves themselves, the several departments (bakery, vegetables, …) everything you can think of is changed. Unfortunately you are forced to wander through the store without having an overview of the store, no scanning of the shelves with the eyes, … After a mornth, you are used to the new store and products and their place in the store, everything changes again and you can start all over again. Isn't this a nightmare? Well, that's what the blind are forced to do every time a website, a programme, … changes.

 

In fact, I should post this to the accessible googlegroup.

 

Best, Katty

 

Van: n8mnx@... [mailto:n8mnx@...]
Verzonden: dinsdag 19 april 2016 4:14
Aan: nvda@groups.io
Onderwerp: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?

 

    I think that maybe blind people are not against change for the sake of change but it's the fear that their old favorite programs won't work and how accessable will the new os be or how accessable will the new programs be.  I to did like windows xp with outlook express and when I was concitering upgrading to windows 7 I was hesitent because I did not know what email program would work and be accessable.  I did of course upgrade and used windows live mail and when I began to have issues with it I went to thunderbird and I now have windows 10 and I still use thunderbird.  I think that the reason that we all like outlook express isthat it is just a simple email program with nobells and whistles like calendars or features that we don't need or can't use.  Outlook express will always be the best email program but we have adapted to other programs but that does not mean that we are happy with them we just adjust.  We all don't like change but we can and do adapt but we don't like it.  With new versions of windows there may be features that we don't need or want or we can't use but we use what we want to use or what we can use.  I know that every one has their screen reader of choice and they think that theirs is the best I use nvdathen there is the issue of winamp it's no longer supported but I still have not been convinced that there is a better program so I will just keep using it.  We should upgrade if we need to but we chould not have change fordced upon us this should be our choice.  Think of the Omish people they don't have cars they still use horse and buggies that is their choice and so is somones choice if they still use windows xp if they are willing to take the risk thats their choice and not ours. 
Brian Sackrider  

On 4/18/2016 9:48 PM, Pauline Smith wrote:

Change is hard, but we must adjust.  I wasn't fond of Win 7 when I got this computer, but I have adjusted.  When a colleague told me how to find and put terms into the search bar by hitting the Start button, much frustration has been saved.  Now, I'm comtemplating doing the upgrade to Win 10.  I just wanted to make sure I knew what I was getting into before doing it.

Pauline

On 4/18/2016 6:27 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:

Rosemarie Chavarria wrote, in regard to a friend of hers who insisted on staying with WinXP, "I asked him why and his answer was that it was simpler to work with."

And I can't count the times I've heard this, about way more than Windows, and thought, "No, it's not easier to work with - it's what you're used to."  Win XP was an OS I loved and Microsoft has the annoying habit of alternating "good" and "bad" versions of Windows.  The number of things that require manual intervention from the user in XP is huge compared to later versions, particularly Windows 7 forward.  And, when it comes down to it, even in the "ugly" versions of Windows the similarities to their predecessors is at least as strong as the differences, but the differences are where people are required to learn something new.

David Moore's comments regarding those who live to be 100, or near it, really resonate with me.  My grandmother died in the 1990s and was in her 90s at the time. When I think about what technology was at her birth and the amount of change she and her age cohort had to go through I am amazed.  I don't know if I could be as flexible as they were.  While the pace of change has picked up, particularly in the cyber world, the majority of changes I've lived through (I'm just short of 54 years old) feel to me much more like refinements on very familiar themes rather than complete divergences from what came before.  That was not true for my grandparents at all, and my parents experienced more revolutionary changes than I have, too.  I think my only two revolutions were the introduction of the personal computer and the ascendance of the internet.

Brian

 

 


locked Re: why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?

David Moore
 

Sorry gene for the “J” ! I am not with it today.
 

From: Gene
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2016 6:07 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?
 
I'm not sure what you have in mind by someone telling you.  I'll discuss the Internet in the rest of this message. 
 
There are certain structures that you have to use the virtual mouse of your screen-reader to activate and those represent a lack of accessibility.  but those who design sites often know little, if anything, about accessibility.  And even if a site is accessible, if a bnlind person doesn't know how to find things on sites efficiently, they may waste a lot of time doing unnecessary things.  For example, they may tab through item after item on a site when using the find command might allow them to find something very quickly.  Continuing with the Internet as an example, to use the Internet to anywhere near it's potential in terms of efficiency, you have to know how to work with sites you haven't worked with before.  A good deal of my Internet use is doing google searches and looking up information on sites I've never used or seldom used.  Some people micromemorize sites, for example, memorizing that this or that is the second heading level 4 on a site.  You simply can't use the Internet well in terms of working with large numbers of sites if you rely on such micromemorization.  If people want to micromemorize this or that item on a site they use constantly, I'm not telling them that they shouldn't.  but when I see people engage in such micromemorization, it raises the question for me if they know how to work with sites efficiently in general. 
 
When I'm on a site I use often and I want to find the editorial link, I use the find command and search for the link.  If it were a heading and I could get there efficiently by moving by heading, I might do that.  but it isn't.  the find command is the only way I know to find the link efficiently on the site. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2016 4:15 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?
 

Gene, you are right, I understand your point. But it would be helpful if someone tells you what are the changes, so that you can explore a website or programme more efficiently. I don't have an overview of pages etc. so, I go exploring. But this takes some time. And if buttons change behaviour, I mean if you could activate them by using space bar or enter in the past and now they need some other way to be activated, that's a bit a hassle if no one could assist you.

 

Best, Katty

 

Van: Gene [mailto:gsasner@...]
Verzonden: dinsdag 19 april 2016 10:41
Aan: nvda@groups.io
Onderwerp: Re: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?

 

That is true in some cases but in many, that is a real exaggeration and reflects users not understanding how to learn the structure of a program or not understanding a new structure such as ribbons. 

 

Lots of times, if a web site changes, what is desired can easily be found on the site by using the find command.  For example, from time to time, Send Space has changed the way you begin a file download.  There might have been a link that says download, for example.  That link was changed to a button but if someone is used to using the links list, an artificial structure that separates them from the page and doesn't know how to explore the page itself, they may well have considerable difficulty and may need help to find out how to download again.  This does not need to be a crisis.  All that need be done is to go to the top of the page and use your screen-reader's find command to search the page for the word download.  You will immediately see that download is now a button and you can then simply type the letter b when a Send Space download page opens to move to it. 

If a program changes its structure, such as by adopting ribbons, if you know how to look through ribbons, you can look through them and, if desired, make notes of the key combinations to perform certain functions.  This is similar to what you might do in a menu program.  Far too many blind people are taught to do things by rote and so any change may be a crisis.  In many cases, if taught properly, it can be just an inconvenience.

 

I'm not saying there aren't real problems such as when a program becomes inaccessible or much less so with a new release.  But I am saying that many problems could be reduced to inconveniences if blind people were taught to conceptualize what they are doing and not to take certain actions by rote without  real understanding of how something is structured and how to learn programs by trying different ways of learning about it such as looking through menus or ribbons.

 

Some blind people will find such ways of conceptualizing and learning difficult and some will find them easy and some in between.  But many people are never taught such things so easy, difficult or in between for them, they never get to find out.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2016 2:47 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?

 

For seeing persons, compare the situation of the blind with the following: you are used to go to your local supermarket, and nearly to find everything you need on the shelves by almost walking asleep (you know what to find where). At a certain day, everything is changed: the name of the store, the products inside, the position of the products on the shelves, the shelves themselves, the several departments (bakery, vegetables, …) everything you can think of is changed. Unfortunately you are forced to wander through the store without having an overview of the store, no scanning of the shelves with the eyes, … After a mornth, you are used to the new store and products and their place in the store, everything changes again and you can start all over again. Isn't this a nightmare? Well, that's what the blind are forced to do every time a website, a programme, … changes.

 

In fact, I should post this to the accessible googlegroup.

 

Best, Katty

 

Van: n8mnx@... [mailto:n8mnx@...]
Verzonden: dinsdag 19 april 2016 4:14
Aan: nvda@groups.io
Onderwerp: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?

 

    I think that maybe blind people are not against change for the sake of change but it's the fear that their old favorite programs won't work and how accessable will the new os be or how accessable will the new programs be.  I to did like windows xp with outlook express and when I was concitering upgrading to windows 7 I was hesitent because I did not know what email program would work and be accessable.  I did of course upgrade and used windows live mail and when I began to have issues with it I went to thunderbird and I now have windows 10 and I still use thunderbird.  I think that the reason that we all like outlook express isthat it is just a simple email program with nobells and whistles like calendars or features that we don't need or can't use.  Outlook express will always be the best email program but we have adapted to other programs but that does not mean that we are happy with them we just adjust.  We all don't like change but we can and do adapt but we don't like it.  With new versions of windows there may be features that we don't need or want or we can't use but we use what we want to use or what we can use.  I know that every one has their screen reader of choice and they think that theirs is the best I use nvdathen there is the issue of winamp it's no longer supported but I still have not been convinced that there is a better program so I will just keep using it.  We should upgrade if we need to but we chould not have change fordced upon us this should be our choice.  Think of the Omish people they don't have cars they still use horse and buggies that is their choice and so is somones choice if they still use windows xp if they are willing to take the risk thats their choice and not ours. 
Brian Sackrider  

On 4/18/2016 9:48 PM, Pauline Smith wrote:

Change is hard, but we must adjust.  I wasn't fond of Win 7 when I got this computer, but I have adjusted.  When a colleague told me how to find and put terms into the search bar by hitting the Start button, much frustration has been saved.  Now, I'm comtemplating doing the upgrade to Win 10.  I just wanted to make sure I knew what I was getting into before doing it.

Pauline

On 4/18/2016 6:27 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:

Rosemarie Chavarria wrote, in regard to a friend of hers who insisted on staying with WinXP, "I asked him why and his answer was that it was simpler to work with."

And I can't count the times I've heard this, about way more than Windows, and thought, "No, it's not easier to work with - it's what you're used to."  Win XP was an OS I loved and Microsoft has the annoying habit of alternating "good" and "bad" versions of Windows.  The number of things that require manual intervention from the user in XP is huge compared to later versions, particularly Windows 7 forward.  And, when it comes down to it, even in the "ugly" versions of Windows the similarities to their predecessors is at least as strong as the differences, but the differences are where people are required to learn something new.

David Moore's comments regarding those who live to be 100, or near it, really resonate with me.  My grandmother died in the 1990s and was in her 90s at the time. When I think about what technology was at her birth and the amount of change she and her age cohort had to go through I am amazed.  I don't know if I could be as flexible as they were.  While the pace of change has picked up, particularly in the cyber world, the majority of changes I've lived through (I'm just short of 54 years old) feel to me much more like refinements on very familiar themes rather than complete divergences from what came before.  That was not true for my grandparents at all, and my parents experienced more revolutionary changes than I have, too.  I think my only two revolutions were the introduction of the personal computer and the ascendance of the internet.

Brian

 

 


locked Re: why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?

David Moore
 

Hi Jene,
That is exactly what I do. It sure does not hurt to have two screen readers at your finger tips either.
You can have JAWS as a 40 minute demo mode just in case, and JAWS users can get NVDA for free. You should not be attacked if you use two screen readers LOL! That type of memorizing will not get you around on many sites you have never been on. Take care all.
 
 

From: Gene
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2016 6:07 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?
 
I'm not sure what you have in mind by someone telling you.  I'll discuss the Internet in the rest of this message. 
 
There are certain structures that you have to use the virtual mouse of your screen-reader to activate and those represent a lack of accessibility.  but those who design sites often know little, if anything, about accessibility.  And even if a site is accessible, if a bnlind person doesn't know how to find things on sites efficiently, they may waste a lot of time doing unnecessary things.  For example, they may tab through item after item on a site when using the find command might allow them to find something very quickly.  Continuing with the Internet as an example, to use the Internet to anywhere near it's potential in terms of efficiency, you have to know how to work with sites you haven't worked with before.  A good deal of my Internet use is doing google searches and looking up information on sites I've never used or seldom used.  Some people micromemorize sites, for example, memorizing that this or that is the second heading level 4 on a site.  You simply can't use the Internet well in terms of working with large numbers of sites if you rely on such micromemorization.  If people want to micromemorize this or that item on a site they use constantly, I'm not telling them that they shouldn't.  but when I see people engage in such micromemorization, it raises the question for me if they know how to work with sites efficiently in general. 
 
When I'm on a site I use often and I want to find the editorial link, I use the find command and search for the link.  If it were a heading and I could get there efficiently by moving by heading, I might do that.  but it isn't.  the find command is the only way I know to find the link efficiently on the site. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2016 4:15 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?
 

Gene, you are right, I understand your point. But it would be helpful if someone tells you what are the changes, so that you can explore a website or programme more efficiently. I don't have an overview of pages etc. so, I go exploring. But this takes some time. And if buttons change behaviour, I mean if you could activate them by using space bar or enter in the past and now they need some other way to be activated, that's a bit a hassle if no one could assist you.

 

Best, Katty

 

Van: Gene [mailto:gsasner@...]
Verzonden: dinsdag 19 april 2016 10:41
Aan: nvda@groups.io
Onderwerp: Re: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?

 

That is true in some cases but in many, that is a real exaggeration and reflects users not understanding how to learn the structure of a program or not understanding a new structure such as ribbons. 

 

Lots of times, if a web site changes, what is desired can easily be found on the site by using the find command.  For example, from time to time, Send Space has changed the way you begin a file download.  There might have been a link that says download, for example.  That link was changed to a button but if someone is used to using the links list, an artificial structure that separates them from the page and doesn't know how to explore the page itself, they may well have considerable difficulty and may need help to find out how to download again.  This does not need to be a crisis.  All that need be done is to go to the top of the page and use your screen-reader's find command to search the page for the word download.  You will immediately see that download is now a button and you can then simply type the letter b when a Send Space download page opens to move to it. 

If a program changes its structure, such as by adopting ribbons, if you know how to look through ribbons, you can look through them and, if desired, make notes of the key combinations to perform certain functions.  This is similar to what you might do in a menu program.  Far too many blind people are taught to do things by rote and so any change may be a crisis.  In many cases, if taught properly, it can be just an inconvenience.

 

I'm not saying there aren't real problems such as when a program becomes inaccessible or much less so with a new release.  But I am saying that many problems could be reduced to inconveniences if blind people were taught to conceptualize what they are doing and not to take certain actions by rote without  real understanding of how something is structured and how to learn programs by trying different ways of learning about it such as looking through menus or ribbons.

 

Some blind people will find such ways of conceptualizing and learning difficult and some will find them easy and some in between.  But many people are never taught such things so easy, difficult or in between for them, they never get to find out.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2016 2:47 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?

 

For seeing persons, compare the situation of the blind with the following: you are used to go to your local supermarket, and nearly to find everything you need on the shelves by almost walking asleep (you know what to find where). At a certain day, everything is changed: the name of the store, the products inside, the position of the products on the shelves, the shelves themselves, the several departments (bakery, vegetables, …) everything you can think of is changed. Unfortunately you are forced to wander through the store without having an overview of the store, no scanning of the shelves with the eyes, … After a mornth, you are used to the new store and products and their place in the store, everything changes again and you can start all over again. Isn't this a nightmare? Well, that's what the blind are forced to do every time a website, a programme, … changes.

 

In fact, I should post this to the accessible googlegroup.

 

Best, Katty

 

Van: n8mnx@... [mailto:n8mnx@...]
Verzonden: dinsdag 19 april 2016 4:14
Aan: nvda@groups.io
Onderwerp: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?

 

    I think that maybe blind people are not against change for the sake of change but it's the fear that their old favorite programs won't work and how accessable will the new os be or how accessable will the new programs be.  I to did like windows xp with outlook express and when I was concitering upgrading to windows 7 I was hesitent because I did not know what email program would work and be accessable.  I did of course upgrade and used windows live mail and when I began to have issues with it I went to thunderbird and I now have windows 10 and I still use thunderbird.  I think that the reason that we all like outlook express isthat it is just a simple email program with nobells and whistles like calendars or features that we don't need or can't use.  Outlook express will always be the best email program but we have adapted to other programs but that does not mean that we are happy with them we just adjust.  We all don't like change but we can and do adapt but we don't like it.  With new versions of windows there may be features that we don't need or want or we can't use but we use what we want to use or what we can use.  I know that every one has their screen reader of choice and they think that theirs is the best I use nvdathen there is the issue of winamp it's no longer supported but I still have not been convinced that there is a better program so I will just keep using it.  We should upgrade if we need to but we chould not have change fordced upon us this should be our choice.  Think of the Omish people they don't have cars they still use horse and buggies that is their choice and so is somones choice if they still use windows xp if they are willing to take the risk thats their choice and not ours. 
Brian Sackrider  

On 4/18/2016 9:48 PM, Pauline Smith wrote:

Change is hard, but we must adjust.  I wasn't fond of Win 7 when I got this computer, but I have adjusted.  When a colleague told me how to find and put terms into the search bar by hitting the Start button, much frustration has been saved.  Now, I'm comtemplating doing the upgrade to Win 10.  I just wanted to make sure I knew what I was getting into before doing it.

Pauline

On 4/18/2016 6:27 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:

Rosemarie Chavarria wrote, in regard to a friend of hers who insisted on staying with WinXP, "I asked him why and his answer was that it was simpler to work with."

And I can't count the times I've heard this, about way more than Windows, and thought, "No, it's not easier to work with - it's what you're used to."  Win XP was an OS I loved and Microsoft has the annoying habit of alternating "good" and "bad" versions of Windows.  The number of things that require manual intervention from the user in XP is huge compared to later versions, particularly Windows 7 forward.  And, when it comes down to it, even in the "ugly" versions of Windows the similarities to their predecessors is at least as strong as the differences, but the differences are where people are required to learn something new.

David Moore's comments regarding those who live to be 100, or near it, really resonate with me.  My grandmother died in the 1990s and was in her 90s at the time. When I think about what technology was at her birth and the amount of change she and her age cohort had to go through I am amazed.  I don't know if I could be as flexible as they were.  While the pace of change has picked up, particularly in the cyber world, the majority of changes I've lived through (I'm just short of 54 years old) feel to me much more like refinements on very familiar themes rather than complete divergences from what came before.  That was not true for my grandparents at all, and my parents experienced more revolutionary changes than I have, too.  I think my only two revolutions were the introduction of the personal computer and the ascendance of the internet.

Brian

 

 


Re: voice question

Jacob Kruger
 

Here's a page listing additional voices/synth's for NVDA:
https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/wiki/ExtraVoices


Jacob Kruger
Blind Biker
Skype: BlindZA
"Roger Wilco wants to welcome you...to the space janitor's closet..."

On 2016-04-19 11:26 PM, David Moore wrote:
Hi,
NVDA is packaged with the e speak voice which has many different voices
to it. There are many other free voices for NVDA as well. I will let
others on this list who know a lot more let you know about them. You are
not stuck with Anna at all, so I want to encourage you of that LOL!
*From:* Jamie Prater <mailto:jdprater@...>
*Sent:* Tuesday, April 19, 2016 4:55 PM
*To:* nvda@groups.io <mailto:nvda@groups.io>
*Subject:* [nvda] voice question

Hi, is Anna the only voice you can use with nvda unless you purchase
more? I only have Microsoft voice Anna as my only voice option and would
like something a bit better. Thanks for any help and have a blessed
day. PS: I’m using the latest nvda with windows 7 and am very very much
a beginner and know very little about nvda. Thanks again and have a
blessed day.


Re: Brian's comments about WinXP, and I've changed the subject line.

David Moore
 

Hi,
ctrl+shift+N is even shorter to create a new folder.

-----Original Message-----
From: HBotma
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2016 8:14 AM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Brian's comments about WinXP, and I've changed the subject line.

I prefer the folder layout in Windows 7 and above, because it lists
the documents with their details, so I can look at a document's
details simply by pressing the right arrow instead of having to go
through properties. The only thing I miss in the folders is the
option of using Alt-F W to create a new folder. This was lost by the
Wayside in Windows 8 and above, which was a useful feature. However,
I have found a way to work around this. Another thing is that the
menus differ in the File Explorer compaired to older versions, but
again, there are ways to work around this.

Heaven

On 4/19/16, Robin Frost <robini71@...> wrote:
Hi,
I’ve done just as Gene suggests below for many years and have used System
Restore with no ill effects.
Further I’ve even used Microsoft’s own folders and never interact with the
“library” feature under windows 10. I find, access and interact with files
just as I always have in prior incarnations of windows.
If things aren’t behaving or seeming to appear as they always have it could
be more an issue of how folder views are set than anything else which can be
completely defined by users specific to a given folder or general across
many.
I hope that helps.
Robin


From: Gene
Sent: Monday, April 18, 2016 10:39 PM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Brian's comments about WinXP, and I've changed the
subject line.

I'm not sure if or to what extent it is more difficult to organize files in
Windows 7. I haven't used later versions but I would think the same general
principle would apply. If you find problems regarding the library feature,
one way to avoid such problems is to organize files outside of this system.
Why not simply create your own folders? Instead of using the Microsoft
Documents folder, for example, why not create a documents folder on the c
drive. If you wanted, you could create a short cut on the desktop to the
folder, thus accessing the folder in the same way as you may have done the
Microsoft Folder.

It may be that you would have to be careful when using something like System
Restore that you wouldn't lose folders or certain files. I don't know what
the case is now, but in the old days, System Restore didn't monitor My
Documents or any folders in it. So I would not advocate creating your own
folder structure unless you back things up properly or don't use System
Restore in the first place. But if libraries do cause problems, there is a
simple way around that which requires you to know nothing about the library
feature.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Laurie Mehta via Groups.io
Sent: Monday, April 18, 2016 8:39 PM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Brian's comments about WinXP, and I've changed the
subject line.

Hi Brian,
I realize that some people hate change and that's where the discussion ends
for them but there is at least one aspect of Windows XP that I preferred to
what came after...
That is the file organization, and how straightforward it was to organize
files in meaningful folders and access files saved in folders keeping a
library neat and manageable.
For me, the file organization and file accessibility in Win7 and later are
usable but not preferable. JMHO.
(smile)
Thanks for all that you contribute here. It's appreciated.
-LM

--------------------------------------------
On Mon, 4/18/16, Brian Vogel <@britechguy> wrote:

Subject: Re: [nvda] This is the moderator speaking: Question Regarding
Eloquence for NVDA from Code Factory
To: nvda@groups.io
Date: Monday, April 18, 2016, 6:27 PM

Rosemarie Chavarria
wrote, in regard to a friend of hers who insisted on staying
with WinXP, "I asked him
why and his answer was that it was simpler to work
with."And I can't count the times
I've heard this, about way more than Windows, and
thought, "No, it's not easier to work with -
it's what you're used to." Win XP was an OS I
loved and Microsoft has the annoying habit of alternating
"good" and "bad" versions of Windows.
The number of things that require manual intervention from
the user in XP is huge compared to later versions,
particularly Windows 7 forward. And, when it comes down to
it, even in the "ugly" versions of Windows the
similarities to their predecessors is at least as strong as
the differences, but the differences are where people are
required to learn something new.David Moore's comments
regarding those who live to be 100, or near it, really
resonate with me. My grandmother died in the 1990s and was
in her 90s at the time. When I think about what technology
was at her birth and the amount of change she and her age
cohort had to go through I am amazed. I don't know if
I could be as flexible as they were. While the pace of
change has picked up, particularly in the cyber world, the
majority of changes I've lived through (I'm just
short of 54 years old) feel to me much more like refinements
on very familiar themes rather than complete divergences
from what came before. That was not true for my
grandparents at all, and my parents experienced more
revolutionary changes than I have, too. I think my only
two revolutions were the introduction of the personal
computer and the ascendance of the
internet.Brian







Re: Requesting "The Qube" DownLoad Link

David Moore
 

You can just install the new version right over the old version LOL! If that does not work, then you can uninstall the old version. One thing I forgot to mansion! You have to go to the short cut on the desktop and press applications key and up arrow to properties and find the check box that says run as administrator and check that in order for the Qube to work. That is very important. Take care all.
 
 

Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2016 6:09 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Requesting "The Qube" DownLoad Link
 

Do you have to uninstall the current version of the cube or can you install like other software?

 

From: David Moore [mailto:jesusloves1966@...]
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2016 4:50 PM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Requesting "The Qube" DownLoad Link

 

Hello James and all,

Here is the link to the Qube web site to get the Qube for free. Works great all the way through win10. Here is the link.

 

 

Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2016 11:26 AM

Subject: [nvda] Requesting "The Qube" DownLoad Link

 

Hello David Moore!

 

I would like to have the link to get the Qube.  Thanks for your help.


Sincerely,


James Arthur Robinson, Sr., President
Jardata Corporation


locked Re: This is the moderator speaking: Question Regarding Eloquence for NVDA from Code Factory

David Moore
 

I have heard Joseph Lee do tutorials with e-speak. It must not be that bad LOL!

-----Original Message-----
From: Rosemarie Chavarria
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2016 5:57 PM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: This is the moderator speaking: [nvda] Question Regarding Eloquence for NVDA from Code Factory

I'm using e-speak right now and it's definitely clear. I like that it's fast and responsive too. Yeah, it's robotic but I'd rather have a synth that's clear than one that crashes. I'm not changing in that respect.



-----Original Message-----
From: Shaun Everiss [mailto:@smeveriss]
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2016 1:39 PM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: This is the moderator speaking: [nvda] Question Regarding Eloquence for NVDA from Code Factory

Gees you guys again with espeak.
Espeak is a robit bit of crap.
However its quite clear, no low quality voices.
Its good for a high performance small form facter synth.
I have grown to like it over even my higher quality synths.
Its an internal library.
I do think nvda needs to come with more opensource synths to it though.
I'd like the speechplayer to continue development and thats maybe where we should put our efforts.
Gwmicro has its own dectalk, freedom scientiffic has eloquence.
supernova has orpheus.
We have espeak which is what linux uses.
We are opensource, so espeak is a standard.
So are things like flite which is total junk, and festival//festvox which I am not sure about and piko.
For those complaining about an opensource synth try writing one.
Espeak for what it is actually is not that bad once you get used to it.
True its robotic, but its clear, high enough quality especially for small speakers and headsets, can run on almost anything from a single cored 128mb ram unit to the latest unit on the market.
Its an internal dll, its stable and hardly if ever crashes.
The only thing of concern is that development has stopped for it maybe I am not sure, point is just about every opensource program from linux to some free things use it.
Its not a reading synth but its good for general every day tasks.
You can'
't have everything.
Or do you want something that is not robotic, that sounds bad quality and not clear, that crashes constantly, maybe makes windows unstable that every few days you have to reformat.
Do you want something which to get the version that works you need to pay for it.
The only other synth that could be that fast is flite and thats totally bad.
Saying that if anyone has other things thats fine.
Espeak for me is a signature synth, but maybe we should focus on either the espeak extention for speech player or the speechplayer 1 development and work on making our own synth.
Ofcause we could just have no synth at all, and use sapi/speech platform which is probably doable especially where windows is going.
Be happy with what you have.
Espeak is a crappy robotic thing but its outwayed by its performance and stability and use on other things like linux.
I am sick of those that think we should change, its worked and its good for what it is.
As an network admin I actually like it, a fast startup is key to a good opperation I don't want to wait for a synth to start up especially with activations/errors.
Anyway no one says you need to stay on the base thing and this is what espeak is, the base synth.
It is what it is.
There was a servey done about speech, maybe to refresh those new ones on here there needs to be another one online and on the list.
Maybe that needs to be done.
I am concerned that there are those that will say this thing needs to be changed and don't realise how hard it is to make something like this.



On 20/04/2016 6:26 a.m., Lino Morales wrote:
Yeah we just need to convince James and Michael to do away with ESpeak
for good. I'm sorry, but now NVDA is 10 now its time to find aother
open source sulutions for a default synth. I've made this argument
before and I'm gonna hound for more change cause there people like my
wife who aslso blind and has progressive hearing loss that synths like
ESpeak won't do. Its not worth spending the money to buy Vocalizer for
twoo separate people.


On 4/18/2016 6:37 AM, Brian's Mail list account wrote:
Yes indeed. Whis was why I tried to choose my words very carefully on
the reply to the thread, but I think it went over the heads of many.

I always donate when a new stable version comes out, and if anyone
wants to say, the project needs x to do then I also donate according
to what I think I can afford.

The thing about Eloquence is, at least from my very limited
experience with other people this.
Most older users who migrated from Jaws, seem to like eloquence, most
new users of computers prefer something that sounds more human, or of
course they can now mix and match as they like. What you should not
do is install hacked versions of anything, as it does take away money
form somebody who is trying to make a living. If its too much then
just don't get it. we are spoiled for choice with voices these days,
and its up to the individual to decide if they need a non free one
to aid their comprehension.

Though I do still have an old version of Via Voice here on some
computers, I just don't like the eloquence type of sound, so I hardly
ever use it, and have not bought a copy. However, some of the other
voices like Daniel and Serena I have purchased over the years and
find them very got for reading documents, with the one proviso of
them using expanded US abbreviations like St for saint and NY for new
York, which are rather silly when encountered in normal text!

Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Joseph Lee"
<@joslee>
To: <nvda@groups.io>
Sent: Monday, April 18, 2016 11:17 AM
Subject: Re: This is the moderator speaking: [nvda] Question
Regarding Eloquence for NVDA from Code Factory


Ladies and gentlemen,

Until a few months ago, discussion of Eloquence wasn't allowed on
this list. This was relaxed last summer when Code Factory released
Eloquence add-on. Back then, Nimer and I (Nimer being the actual list
owner) said discussion of illegal version isn't still permitted.
At this point, it would be advisable to suspend Eloquence discussions
for a while. We cannot risk giving NVDA a slightly muddy reputation
at this important occasion: NVDA's tenth anniversary and NVDACon.
Please don't forget this: the reputation of a product, particularly a
product that many of you depends on, depends on what users say about
the product and the discussions surrounding it.
For those new to this list: I'm known for being generous. However,
I'm also known for being a volcano, especially if the integrity of
the list or the reputation of a product or a community is questioned.
I'll not activate moderation flag for anyone out of respect for
everyone and for newbies to get accustomed to this environment.
For our old friends: Yes, I am indeed serious, more serious now that
we're about to help NV Access celebrate NVDA's tenth birthday. Not
only I'm speaking on behalf of moderators, but as one of the planners
of NVDACon 2016 (I am indeed the chair of the planning committee),
I'd like to kindly request that we care about reputation of NVDA, NV
Access and this community. These days, what gives me more stress
isn't the question of who will succeed me or success of NVDACon, but
the reputation and future of this community for months and years to come.
What gives me more joy is to see you all become folks who can think
about what's going on and make informed decisions (yes, that's the
reason why I've proposed certain proposals in the past).
In conclusion, I do know I will not be able to sleep tonight, but
believe I need to say this: NVDA community, specifically this forum,
is facing a crisis: misinformation abounds and passion trumps reason
at times. We're suffering from a disease called "misinformation" -
what is illegal being seen as legal, people not being informed as to
what's available to them when they need it, name calling at times and
so forth (as I mentioned in my blog, I will not accept name calling).
Being passionate about something is good, but it is better to think
about what's going on before defending one's arguments. In other
words, contrary to what we've said about this forum to the outside
world, we're at times known for doing the opposite.
Lastly, in regards to free material: there is no such thing as free
lunch. I do need to say this in public: NVDA isn't technically free.
For the benefit of many, NVDA is made available as a free,
open-source and community-driven screen reader. But there are costs
associated with this project. Please stop now and imagine for a
second: imagine a group of developers who have decided to promote
equal access to technology at no additional costs, using their
talents to give opportunities for someone who lives in poverty
somewhere. NVDA is more than a screen reader now: it's a movement,
and workers deserve their wages - support, encouragement, opportunities and so on.
Thank you.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: Afrim [mailto:afrim.maja@...]
Sent: Monday, April 18, 2016 2:43 AM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Question Regarding Eloquence for NVDA from Code
Factory

Why do people talk about it? They can, and I don't consider it
against the rules of the list since the add-on, the alternative if
you like to call it is available and accessible from within the add-on list of NVDA.

Sent from my iPhone

On Apr 17, 2016, at 9:33 PM, mk360 <mk.seventhson@...> wrote:

Hi,

I can pay, but the first condition is that the paid versions works
as fine or better that the alternative, and as reviews as been said,
that is not the case.
However, I know that in the list we can't speak about that
alternative, so I don't understand why the people speak about it.

Regards,
mk.

El 17-04-2016 a las 8:04, Greg Wocher escribió:
Hello,
I want to give those of you who use the illegal eloquence add on
some food for thought. When you do it and proudly proclaim that you
do, you give NVDA and its users a bad reputation. I think I may
purchase the Code Factory add on later this afternoon from AT Guys
and I will let you all know if it gets rid of the choppiness.

Regards,
Greg Wocher

On 4/17/2016 5:32 AM, Peter Beasley wrote:
My sentiments exactly.

-----Original Message----- From: Afrim
Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2016 6:40 AM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Question Regarding Eloquence for NVDA from
Code Factory

I have been using the old add-on of eloquonce someone made, and I
am not going to pay for a program that does essentially the same
thing. The add-on I am talking about works so fast and reliably.
cheers.

Sent from my iPhone

On Apr 17, 2016, at 6:22 AM, Kelly Sapergia
<ksapergia@...> wrote:

Hi,

Recently, there was a discussion about alternative voices for
NVDA, such as Code Factory's add-on with Eloquence and Vocalizer.
I mentioned that when I tried this particular product, I noticed
that Eloquence sounded quite choppy compared to other screen
readers and other synths I have for NVDA on my machine running
Windows 7.
I also never experienced this with Code Factory's SAPI 5
implementation.
Anyway, I got thinking about it this evening, and decided to do
some searching to see if anyone else was experiencing similar
issues. I found a thread about the add-on in the old NVDA list's
archive, and saw a message stating that the choppiness would go
away once the product was paid for. I was just wondering if this
is indeed the case? If yes, it's not what I'd consider the best
way to limit a trial version, but I might buy it after all.

Thanks.

Yours Sincerely,
Kelly John Sapergia
Show Host and Production Director The Global Voice Internet Radio
http://www.theglobalvoice.info

Personal Website: http://www.ksapergia.net Business Website (KJS
Productions): http://www.kjsproductions.com Follow me on Twitter
at: kjsapergia













locked Re: This is the moderator speaking: Question Regarding Eloquence for NVDA from Code Factory

David Moore
 

LOL! That is great! you got us there!

-----Original Message-----
From: Isaac
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2016 5:59 PM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] This is the moderator speaking: Question Regarding Eloquence for NVDA from Code Factory

you can use a horse and buggy on the highway, you just have to ride on the
side
----- Original Message -----
From: "Shaun Everiss" <@smeveriss>
To: <nvda@groups.io>
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2016 3:40 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] This is the moderator speaking: Question Regarding
Eloquence for NVDA from Code Factory


Hmmm but with pete I am interested in react os working for us.
If I could run all my windows apps on a desktop, but not have to worry about actual windows including net programs, games, etc then it may be my ticket away from windows without going to linux immediately.



On 20/04/2016 6:41 a.m., Lino Morales wrote:
Totally agree with you Dave. Pete is like our buddy Josh on here. Dude
wants Keynote to work with NVDA. Seriously! That's old school and ain't
gonna happen. We've gotten so much better with speech synths int he past
20 puls years.


On 4/18/2016 3:27 PM, David Moore wrote:
Hi Pete,
Thank you so much, because I have made the same argument on many
lists. Try using a horse and buggy on a free way. There comes a time
when you just have to learn something new and change with the times.
People who live over 100, say this is the main thing you have to do to
live that long. Sometimes you have to forget the past and move on
toward the future. Someday, I will be able to drive my own car, and I
will embrace it. NVDA works so well in win10, and win10 is like a
mantion over a log cabbin. We should have choice, but like you said,
it can’t get in the way of the world changing for the good. Take care.
If it takes buying new programs, it must be done because of the coming
future. Start saving now, so you can prepare for the beautiful tech
future that is to come. Have a great one.
*From:* Pete <mailto:emac00@...>
*Sent:* Monday, April 18, 2016 2:43 PM
*To:* nvda@groups.io <mailto:nvda@groups.io>
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] This is the moderator speaking: Question
Regarding Eloquence for NVDA from Code Factory

Same thing for people wanting windows x p.
I am getting ready to install w10, have to check on if w e 9 works
in w10 or not. the f s people told me j16 works in w10 and sounds like
people are using w 10 with nvda.
Change is good but one should not be forced to loose freedom of choice.
On 4/18/2016 2:22 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:

Pete wrote, "It's kind of like the whole e-mail thing with people
wanting to use outlook express except people keep telling them to use
Thunderbird or Microsoft outlook or window live mail or some thing
like that."

This isn't a "freedom of choice" issue, it's a simple fact of life
that certain programs, Outlook Express being one example, effectively
cease to exist when official support ends. No one is guaranteed, nor
should they expect, that anything that they're using will be
available in perpetuity.

I discourage people from using Outlook Express because the only
existing versions available are hacks based on who knows what code
base and with what vulnerabilities. Since e-mail clients constantly
interact with the internet this is a real concern.

While such a concern is not present regarding voice synthesis, things
will come, and go, in that arena as well. There is very likely going
to come a point where you, for any you, have to let go of something
you're used to because it is not being supported or carried forward.
Getting used to this, even though it's painful, is essential in the
cyber world unless you want to drive yourself crazy. I've seen a lot
of people over the years who have expended far more energy trying to
hold on to something than would have been expended to learn the new
that's available to them.

Brian


Re: Requesting "The Qube" DownLoad Link

Jamie Prater
 

Do you have to uninstall the current version of the cube or can you install like other software?

 

From: David Moore [mailto:jesusloves1966@...]
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2016 4:50 PM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Requesting "The Qube" DownLoad Link

 

Hello James and all,

Here is the link to the Qube web site to get the Qube for free. Works great all the way through win10. Here is the link.

 

 

Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2016 11:26 AM

Subject: [nvda] Requesting "The Qube" DownLoad Link

 

Hello David Moore!

 

I would like to have the link to get the Qube.  Thanks for your help.


Sincerely,


James Arthur Robinson, Sr., President
Jardata Corporation


locked Re: why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?

David Moore
 

Hi Rosemarie and all,
Every time MS produces a new version of windows, Freedom Scientific's web site has many tutorials and free webinars on there about how to use a new version of windows. NVDA users can learn jus as much from these tutorials, because all of the concepts are the same. Using NVDA does not have anything to do with using a new version of windows. If anyone wants to look at the training Freedom Scientific has for win10, here is the link to their web site:
www.freedomscientific.com
Just find the training link and on that page, there is all kinds of recorded material that walks you through using many programs with JAWS, but you can learn just as much if you use NVDA. Take care.

-----Original Message-----
From: Rosemarie Chavarria
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2016 5:45 PM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?

Yes, change can be scary at times. When I upgraded from XP to windows 7, I wondered if I'd ever be able to learn it. After buying the book and playing with windows 7, I found it easier to type a program I wanted into the search box.



-----Original Message-----
From: Shaun Everiss [mailto:@smeveriss]
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2016 1:56 PM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?

Hmmm interesting way to put it.
Lazy, how about frightened, I am certainly scared.
Not wanting, well I have several comercial programs, an advanced screen reader, and a few other apps which will cost some cash every system change, so I do actually want to keep going till I need to update those.
Now if someone offered me like a super deal out of the blue then yeah I am a sucker for packages so I would take it.
Another issue is the environment you are in.
My home environment has users in it who have not and are not wanting to change.
The same tasks I have been doing for the last while will continue to be the same and I see no reason to bother changing, ofcause its like I am in a stagnent pool.
Life is that pool, its not moved much since I left university.
There is only so many positions in that pool you can be in.
There are not that many.



On 19/04/2016 8:40 p.m., Christo Vorster wrote:
Hi Angela

I agree with you, but such are people universally. There will always be people who will make comments on what others say.

I think that deep down, most of us who are resistant to change are somewhat lazy to learn new things, but so be it. It doesn't mean that it make you a lazy person. Often the term "lazy" actually means "just not wanting".

The saying goes: "a change is as good as a holiday", so lets enjoy our changes, when we make them.

My opinion: if you want to change, do it. If you don't want to, do it. The choice always is yours. I just feel that those wanting to change just for the sake of change must take the consequences if they make a wrong choice and in the same way, we who don't want to change, leave us alone.

Sometimes you find people, especially concerning computer software, who look down on those not using the same programs as they do. My approach towards them is just to leave them be.

To be honest, I experienced it with many JAWS-users, and believe me, I used JAWS until I was forced to upgrade to Win 10, because that is what we teach at the college where I am employed. Please don't get me wrong, I don't regret changing to NVDA, I am very happy and believe that NVDA is a much better package, but the people I refer to, am of the opinion that I am stupid, and then many of them are using illegitimate copies.

Have a nice day

Christo

-----Original Message-----
From: Angela Delicata via Groups.io
[mailto:angeladelicata=libero.it@groups.io]
Sent: Tuesday, 19 April 2016 10:20 AM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?

Always the same old discussions you can find on a mailing list for blind.
I will say my opinion: I am not against change, I am just lazy to learn new stuff and do it only when it is really necessary.
I am not perfect, but only God is.
I think one can use whatever program he/she likes and everyone's choice must be respected.

I wish I would never read such things anymore, but blind are hard to change.

Ciao
Angela from Italy

Il 19/04/2016 ha scritto:


Van: n8mnx@... [mailto:n8mnx@...]
Verzonden: dinsdag 19 april 2016 4:14
Aan: nvda@groups.io
Onderwerp: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so
against change?



I think that maybe blind people are not against change for the
sake of change but it's the fear that their old favorite programs
won't work and how accessable will the new os be or how accessable
will the new programs be. I to did like windows xp with outlook
express and when I was concitering upgrading to windows 7 I was
hesitent because I did not know what email program would work and be
accessable. I did of course upgrade and used windows live mail and
when I began to have issues with it I went to thunderbird and I now
have windows 10 and I still use thunderbird. I think that the reason
that we all like outlook express isthat it is just a simple email
program with nobells and whistles like calendars or features that we
don't need or can't use. Outlook express will always be the best
email program but we have adapted to other programs but that does not
mean that we are happy with them we just adjust. We all don't like
change but we can and do adapt but we don't like it. With new
versions of windows there may be features that we don't need or want
or we can't use but we use what we want to use or what we can use. I
know that every one has their screen reader of choice and they think
that theirs is the best I use nvdathen there is the issue of winamp
it's no longer supported but I still have not been convinced that there is a better program so I will just keep using it.
We should upgrade if we need to but we chould not have change fordced
upon us this should be our choice. Think of the Omish people they
don't have cars they still use horse and buggies that is their choice
and so is somones choice if they still use windows xp if they are
willing to take the risk thats their choice and not ours.
Brian Sackrider

On 4/18/2016 9:48 PM, Pauline Smith wrote:

Change is hard, but we must adjust. I wasn't fond of Win 7 when I
got this computer, but I have adjusted. When a colleague told me how
to find and put terms into the search bar by hitting the Start
button, much frustration has been saved. Now, I'm comtemplating
doing the upgrade to Win 10. I just wanted to make sure I knew what
I was getting into before doing it.

Pauline



On 4/18/2016 6:27 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:

Rosemarie Chavarria wrote, in regard to a friend of hers who insisted
on staying with WinXP, "I asked him why and his answer was that it
was simpler to work with."

And I can't count the times I've heard this, about way more than
Windows, and thought, "No, it's not easier to work with - it's what
you're used to." Win XP was an OS I loved and Microsoft has the
annoying habit of alternating "good" and "bad" versions of Windows.
The number of things that require manual intervention from the user
in XP is huge compared to later versions, particularly Windows 7 forward.
And, when it comes down to it, even in the "ugly" versions of Windows
the similarities to their predecessors is at least as strong as the
differences, but the differences are where people are required to
learn something new.

David Moore's comments regarding those who live to be 100, or near
it, really resonate with me. My grandmother died in the 1990s and
was in her 90s at the time. When I think about what technology was at
her birth and the amount of change she and her age cohort had to go
through I am amazed. I don't know if I could be as flexible as they
were. While the pace of change has picked up, particularly in the
cyber world, the majority of changes I've lived through (I'm just
short of 54 years old) feel to me much more like refinements on very
familiar themes rather than complete divergences from what came
before. That was not true for my grandparents at all, and my parents
experienced more revolutionary changes than I have, too. I think my
only two revolutions were the introduction of the personal computer and the ascendance of the internet.

Brian










---
Questa e-mail è stata controllata per individuare virus con Avast antivirus.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus








locked Re: This is the moderator speaking: Question Regarding Eloquence for NVDA from Code Factory

Isaac <bigikemusic@...>
 

you can use a horse and buggy on the highway, you just have to ride on the side

----- Original Message -----
From: "Shaun Everiss" <@smeveriss>
To: <nvda@groups.io>
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2016 3:40 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] This is the moderator speaking: Question Regarding Eloquence for NVDA from Code Factory


Hmmm but with pete I am interested in react os working for us.
If I could run all my windows apps on a desktop, but not have to worry about actual windows including net programs, games, etc then it may be my ticket away from windows without going to linux immediately.



On 20/04/2016 6:41 a.m., Lino Morales wrote:
Totally agree with you Dave. Pete is like our buddy Josh on here. Dude
wants Keynote to work with NVDA. Seriously! That's old school and ain't
gonna happen. We've gotten so much better with speech synths int he past
20 puls years.


On 4/18/2016 3:27 PM, David Moore wrote:
Hi Pete,
Thank you so much, because I have made the same argument on many
lists. Try using a horse and buggy on a free way. There comes a time
when you just have to learn something new and change with the times.
People who live over 100, say this is the main thing you have to do to
live that long. Sometimes you have to forget the past and move on
toward the future. Someday, I will be able to drive my own car, and I
will embrace it. NVDA works so well in win10, and win10 is like a
mantion over a log cabbin. We should have choice, but like you said,
it can’t get in the way of the world changing for the good. Take care.
If it takes buying new programs, it must be done because of the coming
future. Start saving now, so you can prepare for the beautiful tech
future that is to come. Have a great one.
*From:* Pete <mailto:emac00@...>
*Sent:* Monday, April 18, 2016 2:43 PM
*To:* nvda@groups.io <mailto:nvda@groups.io>
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] This is the moderator speaking: Question
Regarding Eloquence for NVDA from Code Factory

Same thing for people wanting windows x p.
I am getting ready to install w10, have to check on if w e 9 works
in w10 or not. the f s people told me j16 works in w10 and sounds like
people are using w 10 with nvda.
Change is good but one should not be forced to loose freedom of choice.
On 4/18/2016 2:22 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:

Pete wrote, "It's kind of like the whole e-mail thing with people
wanting to use outlook express except people keep telling them to use
Thunderbird or Microsoft outlook or window live mail or some thing
like that."

This isn't a "freedom of choice" issue, it's a simple fact of life
that certain programs, Outlook Express being one example, effectively
cease to exist when official support ends. No one is guaranteed, nor
should they expect, that anything that they're using will be
available in perpetuity.

I discourage people from using Outlook Express because the only
existing versions available are hacks based on who knows what code
base and with what vulnerabilities. Since e-mail clients constantly
interact with the internet this is a real concern.

While such a concern is not present regarding voice synthesis, things
will come, and go, in that arena as well. There is very likely going
to come a point where you, for any you, have to let go of something
you're used to because it is not being supported or carried forward.
Getting used to this, even though it's painful, is essential in the
cyber world unless you want to drive yourself crazy. I've seen a lot
of people over the years who have expended far more energy trying to
hold on to something than would have been expended to learn the new
that's available to them.

Brian


locked Re: This is the moderator speaking: Question Regarding Eloquence for NVDA from Code Factory

Rosemarie Chavarria
 

I'm using e-speak right now and it's definitely clear. I like that it's fast and responsive too. Yeah, it's robotic but I'd rather have a synth that's clear than one that crashes. I'm not changing in that respect.

-----Original Message-----
From: Shaun Everiss [mailto:@smeveriss]
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2016 1:39 PM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: This is the moderator speaking: [nvda] Question Regarding Eloquence for NVDA from Code Factory

Gees you guys again with espeak.
Espeak is a robit bit of crap.
However its quite clear, no low quality voices.
Its good for a high performance small form facter synth.
I have grown to like it over even my higher quality synths.
Its an internal library.
I do think nvda needs to come with more opensource synths to it though.
I'd like the speechplayer to continue development and thats maybe where we should put our efforts.
Gwmicro has its own dectalk, freedom scientiffic has eloquence.
supernova has orpheus.
We have espeak which is what linux uses.
We are opensource, so espeak is a standard.
So are things like flite which is total junk, and festival//festvox which I am not sure about and piko.
For those complaining about an opensource synth try writing one.
Espeak for what it is actually is not that bad once you get used to it.
True its robotic, but its clear, high enough quality especially for small speakers and headsets, can run on almost anything from a single cored 128mb ram unit to the latest unit on the market.
Its an internal dll, its stable and hardly if ever crashes.
The only thing of concern is that development has stopped for it maybe I am not sure, point is just about every opensource program from linux to some free things use it.
Its not a reading synth but its good for general every day tasks.
You can'
't have everything.
Or do you want something that is not robotic, that sounds bad quality and not clear, that crashes constantly, maybe makes windows unstable that every few days you have to reformat.
Do you want something which to get the version that works you need to pay for it.
The only other synth that could be that fast is flite and thats totally bad.
Saying that if anyone has other things thats fine.
Espeak for me is a signature synth, but maybe we should focus on either the espeak extention for speech player or the speechplayer 1 development and work on making our own synth.
Ofcause we could just have no synth at all, and use sapi/speech platform which is probably doable especially where windows is going.
Be happy with what you have.
Espeak is a crappy robotic thing but its outwayed by its performance and stability and use on other things like linux.
I am sick of those that think we should change, its worked and its good for what it is.
As an network admin I actually like it, a fast startup is key to a good opperation I don't want to wait for a synth to start up especially with activations/errors.
Anyway no one says you need to stay on the base thing and this is what espeak is, the base synth.
It is what it is.
There was a servey done about speech, maybe to refresh those new ones on here there needs to be another one online and on the list.
Maybe that needs to be done.
I am concerned that there are those that will say this thing needs to be changed and don't realise how hard it is to make something like this.



On 20/04/2016 6:26 a.m., Lino Morales wrote:
Yeah we just need to convince James and Michael to do away with ESpeak
for good. I'm sorry, but now NVDA is 10 now its time to find aother
open source sulutions for a default synth. I've made this argument
before and I'm gonna hound for more change cause there people like my
wife who aslso blind and has progressive hearing loss that synths like
ESpeak won't do. Its not worth spending the money to buy Vocalizer for
twoo separate people.


On 4/18/2016 6:37 AM, Brian's Mail list account wrote:
Yes indeed. Whis was why I tried to choose my words very carefully on
the reply to the thread, but I think it went over the heads of many.

I always donate when a new stable version comes out, and if anyone
wants to say, the project needs x to do then I also donate according
to what I think I can afford.

The thing about Eloquence is, at least from my very limited
experience with other people this.
Most older users who migrated from Jaws, seem to like eloquence, most
new users of computers prefer something that sounds more human, or of
course they can now mix and match as they like. What you should not
do is install hacked versions of anything, as it does take away money
form somebody who is trying to make a living. If its too much then
just don't get it. we are spoiled for choice with voices these days,
and its up to the individual to decide if they need a non free one
to aid their comprehension.

Though I do still have an old version of Via Voice here on some
computers, I just don't like the eloquence type of sound, so I hardly
ever use it, and have not bought a copy. However, some of the other
voices like Daniel and Serena I have purchased over the years and
find them very got for reading documents, with the one proviso of
them using expanded US abbreviations like St for saint and NY for new
York, which are rather silly when encountered in normal text!

Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Joseph Lee"
<@joslee>
To: <nvda@groups.io>
Sent: Monday, April 18, 2016 11:17 AM
Subject: Re: This is the moderator speaking: [nvda] Question
Regarding Eloquence for NVDA from Code Factory


Ladies and gentlemen,

Until a few months ago, discussion of Eloquence wasn't allowed on
this list. This was relaxed last summer when Code Factory released
Eloquence add-on. Back then, Nimer and I (Nimer being the actual list
owner) said discussion of illegal version isn't still permitted.
At this point, it would be advisable to suspend Eloquence discussions
for a while. We cannot risk giving NVDA a slightly muddy reputation
at this important occasion: NVDA's tenth anniversary and NVDACon.
Please don't forget this: the reputation of a product, particularly a
product that many of you depends on, depends on what users say about
the product and the discussions surrounding it.
For those new to this list: I'm known for being generous. However,
I'm also known for being a volcano, especially if the integrity of
the list or the reputation of a product or a community is questioned.
I'll not activate moderation flag for anyone out of respect for
everyone and for newbies to get accustomed to this environment.
For our old friends: Yes, I am indeed serious, more serious now that
we're about to help NV Access celebrate NVDA's tenth birthday. Not
only I'm speaking on behalf of moderators, but as one of the planners
of NVDACon 2016 (I am indeed the chair of the planning committee),
I'd like to kindly request that we care about reputation of NVDA, NV
Access and this community. These days, what gives me more stress
isn't the question of who will succeed me or success of NVDACon, but
the reputation and future of this community for months and years to come.
What gives me more joy is to see you all become folks who can think
about what's going on and make informed decisions (yes, that's the
reason why I've proposed certain proposals in the past).
In conclusion, I do know I will not be able to sleep tonight, but
believe I need to say this: NVDA community, specifically this forum,
is facing a crisis: misinformation abounds and passion trumps reason
at times. We're suffering from a disease called "misinformation" -
what is illegal being seen as legal, people not being informed as to
what's available to them when they need it, name calling at times and
so forth (as I mentioned in my blog, I will not accept name calling).
Being passionate about something is good, but it is better to think
about what's going on before defending one's arguments. In other
words, contrary to what we've said about this forum to the outside
world, we're at times known for doing the opposite.
Lastly, in regards to free material: there is no such thing as free
lunch. I do need to say this in public: NVDA isn't technically free.
For the benefit of many, NVDA is made available as a free,
open-source and community-driven screen reader. But there are costs
associated with this project. Please stop now and imagine for a
second: imagine a group of developers who have decided to promote
equal access to technology at no additional costs, using their
talents to give opportunities for someone who lives in poverty
somewhere. NVDA is more than a screen reader now: it's a movement,
and workers deserve their wages - support, encouragement, opportunities and so on.
Thank you.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: Afrim [mailto:afrim.maja@...]
Sent: Monday, April 18, 2016 2:43 AM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Question Regarding Eloquence for NVDA from Code
Factory

Why do people talk about it? They can, and I don't consider it
against the rules of the list since the add-on, the alternative if
you like to call it is available and accessible from within the add-on list of NVDA.

Sent from my iPhone

On Apr 17, 2016, at 9:33 PM, mk360 <mk.seventhson@...> wrote:

Hi,

I can pay, but the first condition is that the paid versions works
as fine or better that the alternative, and as reviews as been said,
that is not the case.
However, I know that in the list we can't speak about that
alternative, so I don't understand why the people speak about it.

Regards,
mk.

El 17-04-2016 a las 8:04, Greg Wocher escribió:
Hello,
I want to give those of you who use the illegal eloquence add on
some food for thought. When you do it and proudly proclaim that you
do, you give NVDA and its users a bad reputation. I think I may
purchase the Code Factory add on later this afternoon from AT Guys
and I will let you all know if it gets rid of the choppiness.

Regards,
Greg Wocher

On 4/17/2016 5:32 AM, Peter Beasley wrote:
My sentiments exactly.

-----Original Message----- From: Afrim
Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2016 6:40 AM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Question Regarding Eloquence for NVDA from
Code Factory

I have been using the old add-on of eloquonce someone made, and I
am not going to pay for a program that does essentially the same
thing. The add-on I am talking about works so fast and reliably.
cheers.

Sent from my iPhone

On Apr 17, 2016, at 6:22 AM, Kelly Sapergia
<ksapergia@...> wrote:

Hi,

Recently, there was a discussion about alternative voices for
NVDA, such as Code Factory's add-on with Eloquence and Vocalizer.
I mentioned that when I tried this particular product, I noticed
that Eloquence sounded quite choppy compared to other screen
readers and other synths I have for NVDA on my machine running
Windows 7.
I also never experienced this with Code Factory's SAPI 5
implementation.
Anyway, I got thinking about it this evening, and decided to do
some searching to see if anyone else was experiencing similar
issues. I found a thread about the add-on in the old NVDA list's
archive, and saw a message stating that the choppiness would go
away once the product was paid for. I was just wondering if this
is indeed the case? If yes, it's not what I'd consider the best
way to limit a trial version, but I might buy it after all.

Thanks.

Yours Sincerely,
Kelly John Sapergia
Show Host and Production Director The Global Voice Internet Radio
http://www.theglobalvoice.info

Personal Website: http://www.ksapergia.net Business Website (KJS
Productions): http://www.kjsproductions.com Follow me on Twitter
at: kjsapergia