Date   

Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Arlene
 

Oh, That one tec person was just ignorant. He was unwilling to help. I’ve had real good tecs who wanted to help. I’ve always asked What does the link say near the button you want me to click. He wil say the link will say something like redgester here. Then he’d say I was getting closer to it. I was having banking trouble and I had to have help fixing the whatever problem it was.   The person was amazed that the computer can talk.  I’ve had real good supportive people who wanted to help. 

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Brian Vogel
Sent: December 30, 2020 4:08 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

 

On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 02:32 PM, Arlene wrote:

You’d be a good advocate for blind users who have to fight with isp providers.  You know how they say click here or there. They have no clue that you are a blind user.  I’ve encountered someone who had no clue that I don’t see.

-
Now, Arlene, I'll probably end up causing you some offense while at the same time praising you and trashing the clueless sighted, too.

I have been a good advocate on many occasions for multiple issues.  But, at the same time, there are "click here and click there" instructions that should be simple to follow, while there are others that are impossible to follow.  There are plenty of sighted individuals (like I have to say this here), and particularly techs, who have probably never dealt with an individual who is blind let alone with a screen reader.  If you ask most of your sighted friends and acquaintances who've never been around someone who's blind when they're using a computer how they think that would work, they generally can't answer.  I could not have answered this during my many years in the computer biz, and that was, I would say, for the majority of my many years in the computer biz. The whole concept of something so visually driven in the most common user interface is almost impossible to conceive of via other modalities.  Those of us who see "swim in sight" like it's water and we're Esther Williams and, for obvious reasons, that's a taken for granted thing.  Just like those of us who can hear do the same for audition.  You just don't think about sensory modalities you lack, or how those would be substituted, when you have no real reason to in daily existence.

I honestly think it sometimes just doesn't register with some techs when you identify yourself as blind (which, I will add, is absolutely your responsibility when engaging technical support - they can't read minds) and for many where it does, what they are doing and saying is out of force of habit rather than malice or stupidity.  It's probably ignorance more than anything.  But sometimes you have to guide them, and teach them something, when they're trying to guide you in a way that can't work.  Were someone to say, "Click on the gear icon," responding with, "I can't see that, but do you mean you want me to open settings?," is going to get both sides of the equation something they need.  You get clarity (or hopefully you do) and the tech gets clued in, however subtly and possibly temporarily, that there is a way to reference things that is not purely visual.  They'll usually keep screwing up out of force of habit during any given session, but if you keep instructing them about what you need, they'll often be willing to rephrase.  For certain things, it's worth trying to get the point across that giving reference points, is something worth doing.  A response like, "Click on the red button at the upper left is meaningless for me, but is there another button or link very near to it?  If I can find that, I can likely find what's next to it."   There really are not, and never will be, enough technicians out there versed in screen readers and blindness to provide support for every product that exists, particularly for smaller companies.  But many techs really want to help, they just have no idea of exactly how, and you can serve to teach them how to an extent while getting the help you need.

All of the above being said, make no mistake, I know all too well that you will get plenty of clueless and hostile (or at least very passive and unwilling to work with you) techs.  But there are lots of folks who will quickly recognize that you are not clueless about what you need, and that they, while they may be clueless about how you get to it, can still find a way to meet you in the middle where you can both get what you want.

I worked for many years in brain injury services, and I used to tell my patients/clients who were brain injured and trying to make their way back into "the world at large" that they would constantly, endlessly, have to be their own best advocates and to educate the clueless.  It's not a choice, because that's another population that's such a tiny niche in humanity at large that there will never come a time when most people they meet and interact with will have any idea about what it is to be brain injured or what a brain injured individual might need.  The thing that someone who's had a brain injury has going against them that most blind people will not is the presumption that they are incapable of understanding a very great many things that they can.  And one of the most difficult self-advocation skills I used to teach is temper control when the clueless deserve a shovel upside the head for how obnoxious they're being and keeping composure so that you can clearly communicate what you need and what you're capable of.

Almost anyone with almost any disability is saddled with the added responsibility of having to be advocate and teacher as a part of their daily life where the majority do not.  But I do not ever see any way that will change.  It's the result of relative sizes of given demographics in the population at large.  When you're a niche, you're a niche.  Rebelling against the larger world because you have that added burden does not do any damage to the larger world.  In fact, by and large, they couldn't care less because in most instances they don't have to.  But that doesn't mean that those same people are malicious or stupid, just ignorant, and many really would love to help if they are taught how that's appropriately given.  And, believe me, the last thing you want is to have them guess, because those guesses will be wrong 99.999% of the time.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next.  We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

        ~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner 

 

 


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Gene
 

there is a question I was wondering about today as a result of thinking about the discussion. If you are working in a program with a long menu, what happens if menu items cover something else on screen? If a menu item, such as save as or work off line, covers words in a document, do you see the words in the document behind the menu item? Does the contrast change in what is being covered up so you can easily see the menu item and the item behind it is quite dark, or are such things handled in some other way?

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2020 5:33 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 03:19 PM, Jackie wrote:
I think Arlene was just trying to say that Brian doesn't instruct like most sighted folks. The context of the message bears that out, Ibelieve.-
And that's how I read it, and particularly in reference to my avoiding "point and click" terminology when speaking to a blind and visually impaired audience, which I try to be very mindful to avoid.

Yet, Gene is correct is his observation that it is every bit as incumbent on blind users to have the mental tools at their disposal to "translate" a point and click instruction set to keyboard user equivalent. When I tutor, this is something I teach when necessary. Most of my students have been individuals who are formerly sighted, so they implicitly understand "point and click" style in instruction sets, and what I teach them is not only how to use a screen reader, per se, but what the translations from sighted-focused terminology to keyboard-focused terminology is. They should, at the end, be able to look at an instruction set written for either the sighted or the blind and be equally comfortable following either.

As Mike Capelle noted, "We all live in a sighted world," and I don't think there's a single reader here who does not understand what he meant. Like the old Palmolive commercial: You're soaking in it.

While any given individual can make any choices they see fit, choices have consequences. And if you're a blind computer user who, by choice, cuts yourself off from "sighted centric" instructions, you are cutting yourself off from the vast majority of material out there that can answer many questions you have.

I do not rewrite the instruction sets I have written for keyboard-focused audiences when I post same in sighted-centric venues. I make a point of saying, "This was written with blind individuals in mind, and is keyboard focused, but you [the random sighted user] should easily be able to translate these to using the mouse." I fully expect that this should work in the opposite direction, too, and make no apology for that. I do offer pointers to certain sighted-centric instructions, not written by me, because they're good instruction sets. I don't think that it's impossible to know that, "click on," means "gain focus on and select," "double click on, " means, "activate by your preferred method, etc. It's a basic skill that anyone who wishes to expand their own computer use expertise should acquire. And heaven knows there are a very great number of members other than myself who can assist if you happen to be someone in the translation acquisition phase of your own education.

--


Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:] Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next. We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Arlene
 

That’s right. He doesn’t give instructions like a sighted person. That’s why I thought he was blind like us!  Well, Sighted, Deaf or blind we all can operate a computer and learn off one another. I don’t care as long as the person has good knolege. If the person knows what one needs and can communicate the way some users communicate then all the world to them.  I’m sure brian will continue to be a good Moderator. 

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Jackie
Sent: December 30, 2020 12:19 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

 

I think Arlene was just trying to say that Brian doesn't instruct like

most sighted folks. The context of the message bears that out, I

believe.

 

Full moon. It hsows. Last of 2020. Ow-oo. Happy New Year, all.

 

On 12/30/20, Gary Metzler <gmtravel@...> wrote:

> Very well said.

> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Nimer Jaber

> Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2020 2:55 PM

> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

> Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

> Hello Arlene,

> I would like to challenge your message and thinking a little bit. I am

> posting publicly, because it is an important topic. While you seem to be in

> support of Brian, I couldn't help but notice that you stated that Brian

> doesn't sound "blind".

> What does a blind person sound like? Is it really necessary to judge people

> as sounding a certain way? Isn't it better if we choose to not judge, not

> have preconceived notions which divide us and put barriers between us? Isn't

> the rest of the world already divided? Should we not model, as a community,

> the very definition of non-discrimination? That is my ideal, anyway, my hope

> in writing this message. We all are human beings. We all are beautiful,

> unique souls. The things that bring us together should be the things we

> honor and acknowledge. Brian brings so many strengths to the table as a

> moderator, we should all appreciate those things about Brian that makes him

> the wonderful individual that he is. Same goes for anyone else on this list.

> We all have struggles, we all have cultural differences, we all have

> differing opinions on politics and whatever else, but at the end of the day,

> every single one of you are all beatutiful, human souls, regardless of your

> physical characteristics.

> For me, I welcome anyone on this list, and as a moderator, without regard to

> any physical, religious, sex, etc characteristics, and I urge everyone to

> drop your preconceived notions as to who any of us are, and focus please, on

> the things that bring us together, and celebrate those things that make us

> unique.

> Thank you everyone for the support you are showing Brian.

> On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 11:32 AM Arlene <nedster66@...

> <mailto:nedster66@...> > wrote:

> I had no clue you can see. The way you talk like the blind users. I thought

> you were blind like us.  Well, keep up the good work. You’d be a good

> advocate for blind users who have to fight with isp providers.  You know how

> they say click here or there. They have no clue that you are a blind user.

> I’ve encountered someone who had no clue that I don’t see.  The person said

> Oh don’t listen to the screen reader listen to me. I said that screen reader

> helps me help you see the screen.  He tried to tell me to click a green box.

> Just then a sighted friend who happened to know how to talk like us blind

> users.  She told the person on the phone that I don’t see.  He felt like a

> fool! This screen reader was NVDA.  I don’t know if this is true. This

> friend said that NVDA looks more like windows. She described that it

> interacts more like you would see windows like a sighted person.  Some of

> the key commands are similar to Jaws.  Even my food safe tutor said the NVDA

> screen reader looks more like windows.  He had full sight.

> Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986>  for Windows

> 10

> From: Brian Vogel <mailto:britechguy@...>

> Sent: December 30, 2020 9:29 AM

> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>

> Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

> Rosemarie and Arlene,

>            I just wanted to thank you for your kind words, and particularly

> for your saying you'd forgotten or not known that I am sighted.  I do

> mention this occasionally because I do not want anyone, on any of the blind

> technology groups on which I participate, to ever believe I am trying to

> impersonate a blind person nor making any claim that I can or do know, a in

> lived experience sense, what it is to be blind.  I've simply worked with

> blind technology and individuals who are blind and visually impaired for

> quite a few years now and that's taught me an awful lot.

>            But it's very nice to know that, at least for the most part, much

> of what I now write in these venues reads in such a way that the fact that I

> see is not at all readily obvious unless I bring it up or someone else does.

>  There are times where the fact that I can see is relevant, and it makes

> perfect sense for that to be mentioned when it is.  But when it's not

> germane to the conversation it just isn't.

> --

> Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042

> [Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to

> overturn the votes certified by 4 states:]  Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling,

> but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next.

>  We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

>         ~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan

> and John Boehner

> --

> Best,

> Nimer Jaber

> The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it was

> addressed. If you believe that you are not the intended recipient,

> please notify me via reply email and destroy all copies of this

> correspondence. Action taken as a result of this email or its contents

> by anyone other than the intended recipient(s) may result in civil or

> criminal charges. I have checked this email and all corresponding

> attachments for security threats.

> Registered Linux User 529141.

> http://counter.li.org/

> To find out about a free, open-source, and versatile screen reader for

> Windows, visit nvaccess.org <http://www.nvda-project.org>

> You can follow @nimerjaber on Twitter for the latest technology news.

> To contact me, you can reply to this email or you may call me at (970)

> (393-4481) and I will do my best to respond to you promptly.

> Thank you, and have a great day!

>

 

 

--

Subscribe to a WordPress for Newbies Mailing List by sending a message to:

wp4newbs-request@... with 'subscribe' in the Subject field OR by

visiting the list page at http://www.freelists.org/list/wp4newbs

& check out my sites at www.brightstarsweb.com & www.mysitesbeenhacked.com

 

 

 

 

 


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

 

On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 02:32 PM, Arlene wrote:
You’d be a good advocate for blind users who have to fight with isp providers.  You know how they say click here or there. They have no clue that you are a blind user.  I’ve encountered someone who had no clue that I don’t see.
-
Now, Arlene, I'll probably end up causing you some offense while at the same time praising you and trashing the clueless sighted, too.

I have been a good advocate on many occasions for multiple issues.  But, at the same time, there are "click here and click there" instructions that should be simple to follow, while there are others that are impossible to follow.  There are plenty of sighted individuals (like I have to say this here), and particularly techs, who have probably never dealt with an individual who is blind let alone with a screen reader.  If you ask most of your sighted friends and acquaintances who've never been around someone who's blind when they're using a computer how they think that would work, they generally can't answer.  I could not have answered this during my many years in the computer biz, and that was, I would say, for the majority of my many years in the computer biz. The whole concept of something so visually driven in the most common user interface is almost impossible to conceive of via other modalities.  Those of us who see "swim in sight" like it's water and we're Esther Williams and, for obvious reasons, that's a taken for granted thing.  Just like those of us who can hear do the same for audition.  You just don't think about sensory modalities you lack, or how those would be substituted, when you have no real reason to in daily existence.

I honestly think it sometimes just doesn't register with some techs when you identify yourself as blind (which, I will add, is absolutely your responsibility when engaging technical support - they can't read minds) and for many where it does, what they are doing and saying is out of force of habit rather than malice or stupidity.  It's probably ignorance more than anything.  But sometimes you have to guide them, and teach them something, when they're trying to guide you in a way that can't work.  Were someone to say, "Click on the gear icon," responding with, "I can't see that, but do you mean you want me to open settings?," is going to get both sides of the equation something they need.  You get clarity (or hopefully you do) and the tech gets clued in, however subtly and possibly temporarily, that there is a way to reference things that is not purely visual.  They'll usually keep screwing up out of force of habit during any given session, but if you keep instructing them about what you need, they'll often be willing to rephrase.  For certain things, it's worth trying to get the point across that giving reference points, is something worth doing.  A response like, "Click on the red button at the upper left is meaningless for me, but is there another button or link very near to it?  If I can find that, I can likely find what's next to it."   There really are not, and never will be, enough technicians out there versed in screen readers and blindness to provide support for every product that exists, particularly for smaller companies.  But many techs really want to help, they just have no idea of exactly how, and you can serve to teach them how to an extent while getting the help you need.

All of the above being said, make no mistake, I know all too well that you will get plenty of clueless and hostile (or at least very passive and unwilling to work with you) techs.  But there are lots of folks who will quickly recognize that you are not clueless about what you need, and that they, while they may be clueless about how you get to it, can still find a way to meet you in the middle where you can both get what you want.

I worked for many years in brain injury services, and I used to tell my patients/clients who were brain injured and trying to make their way back into "the world at large" that they would constantly, endlessly, have to be their own best advocates and to educate the clueless.  It's not a choice, because that's another population that's such a tiny niche in humanity at large that there will never come a time when most people they meet and interact with will have any idea about what it is to be brain injured or what a brain injured individual might need.  The thing that someone who's had a brain injury has going against them that most blind people will not is the presumption that they are incapable of understanding a very great many things that they can.  And one of the most difficult self-advocation skills I used to teach is temper control when the clueless deserve a shovel upside the head for how obnoxious they're being and keeping composure so that you can clearly communicate what you need and what you're capable of.

Almost anyone with almost any disability is saddled with the added responsibility of having to be advocate and teacher as a part of their daily life where the majority do not.  But I do not ever see any way that will change.  It's the result of relative sizes of given demographics in the population at large.  When you're a niche, you're a niche.  Rebelling against the larger world because you have that added burden does not do any damage to the larger world.  In fact, by and large, they couldn't care less because in most instances they don't have to.  But that doesn't mean that those same people are malicious or stupid, just ignorant, and many really would love to help if they are taught how that's appropriately given.  And, believe me, the last thing you want is to have them guess, because those guesses will be wrong 99.999% of the time.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next.  We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

        ~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner 

 


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Arlene
 

I said what I said. I didn’t know Brian was sighted. I really thought he was blind like us. Now come to think of it. Blind, deaf or whatever you may be we all have computer skills.

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Nimer Jaber
Sent: December 30, 2020 11:55 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

 

Hello Arlene,

 

I would like to challenge your message and thinking a little bit. I am posting publicly, because it is an important topic. While you seem to be in support of Brian, I couldn't help but notice that you stated that Brian doesn't sound "blind".

 

What does a blind person sound like? Is it really necessary to judge people as sounding a certain way? Isn't it better if we choose to not judge, not have preconceived notions which divide us and put barriers between us? Isn't the rest of the world already divided? Should we not model, as a community, the very definition of non-discrimination? That is my ideal, anyway, my hope in writing this message. We all are human beings. We all are beautiful, unique souls. The things that bring us together should be the things we honor and acknowledge. Brian brings so many strengths to the table as a moderator, we should all appreciate those things about Brian that makes him the wonderful individual that he is. Same goes for anyone else on this list. We all have struggles, we all have cultural differences, we all have differing opinions on politics and whatever else, but at the end of the day, every single one of you are all beatutiful, human souls, regardless of your physical characteristics.

 

For me, I welcome anyone on this list, and as a moderator, without regard to any physical, religious, sex, etc characteristics, and I urge everyone to drop your preconceived notions as to who any of us are, and focus please, on the things that bring us together, and celebrate those things that make us unique.

 

Thank you everyone for the support you are showing Brian.

 

On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 11:32 AM Arlene <nedster66@...> wrote:

I had no clue you can see. The way you talk like the blind users. I thought you were blind like us.  Well, keep up the good work. You’d be a good advocate for blind users who have to fight with isp providers.  You know how they say click here or there. They have no clue that you are a blind user.  I’ve encountered someone who had no clue that I don’t see.  The person said Oh don’t listen to the screen reader listen to me. I said that screen reader helps me help you see the screen.  He tried to tell me to click a green box. Just then a sighted friend who happened to know how to talk like us blind users.  She told the person on the phone that I don’t see.  He felt like a fool! This screen reader was NVDA.  I don’t know if this is true. This friend said that NVDA looks more like windows. She described that it interacts more like you would see windows like a sighted person.  Some of the key commands are similar to Jaws.  Even my food safe tutor said the NVDA screen reader looks more like windows.  He had full sight.   

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Brian Vogel
Sent: December 30, 2020 9:29 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

 

Rosemarie and Arlene,

           I just wanted to thank you for your kind words, and particularly for your saying you'd forgotten or not known that I am sighted.  I do mention this occasionally because I do not want anyone, on any of the blind technology groups on which I participate, to ever believe I am trying to impersonate a blind person nor making any claim that I can or do know, a in lived experience sense, what it is to be blind.  I've simply worked with blind technology and individuals who are blind and visually impaired for quite a few years now and that's taught me an awful lot.

           But it's very nice to know that, at least for the most part, much of what I now write in these venues reads in such a way that the fact that I see is not at all readily obvious unless I bring it up or someone else does.  There are times where the fact that I can see is relevant, and it makes perfect sense for that to be mentioned when it is.  But when it's not germane to the conversation it just isn't.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next.  We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

        ~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner 

 

 


 

--

Best,

Nimer Jaber

The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it was
addressed. If you believe that you are not the intended recipient,
please notify me via reply email and destroy all copies of this
correspondence. Action taken as a result of this email or its contents
by anyone other than the intended recipient(s) may result in civil or
criminal charges. I have checked this email and all corresponding
attachments for security threats.


Registered Linux User 529141.
http://counter.li.org/

To find out about a free, open-source, and versatile screen reader for Windows, visit nvaccess.org

You can follow @nimerjaber on Twitter for the latest technology news.

To contact me, you can reply to this email or you may call me at (970) (393-4481) and I will do my best to respond to you promptly.

 

Thank you, and have a great day!

 


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

 

On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 03:19 PM, Jackie wrote:
I think Arlene was just trying to say that Brian doesn't instruct like most sighted folks. The context of the message bears that out, Ibelieve.
-
And that's how I read it, and particularly in reference to my avoiding "point and click" terminology when speaking to a blind and visually impaired audience, which I try to be very mindful to avoid.

Yet, Gene is correct is his observation that it is every bit as incumbent on blind users to have the mental tools at their disposal to "translate" a point and click instruction set to keyboard user equivalent.  When I tutor, this is something I teach when necessary.  Most of my students have been individuals who are formerly sighted, so they implicitly understand "point and click" style in instruction sets, and what I teach them is not only how to use a screen reader, per se, but what the translations from sighted-focused terminology to keyboard-focused terminology is.  They should, at the end, be able to look at an instruction set written for either the sighted or the blind and be equally comfortable following either.

As Mike Capelle noted, "We all live in a sighted world," and I don't think there's a single reader here who does not understand what he meant.  Like the old Palmolive commercial:  You're soaking in it.

While any given individual can make any choices they see fit, choices have consequences.  And if you're a blind computer user who, by choice, cuts yourself off from "sighted centric" instructions, you are cutting yourself off from the vast majority of material out there that can answer many questions you have.

I do not rewrite the instruction sets I have written for keyboard-focused audiences when I post same in sighted-centric venues.  I make a point of saying, "This was written with blind individuals in mind, and is keyboard focused, but you [the random sighted user] should easily be able to translate these to using the mouse."  I fully expect that this should work in the opposite direction, too, and make no apology for that.  I do offer pointers to certain sighted-centric instructions, not written by me, because they're good instruction sets.  I don't think that it's impossible to know that, "click on," means "gain focus on and select," "double click on, " means, "activate by your preferred method, etc.  It's a basic skill that anyone who wishes to expand their own computer use expertise should acquire.  And heaven knows there are a very great number of members other than myself who can assist if you happen to be someone in the translation acquisition phase of your own education.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next.  We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

        ~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner 

 


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Mike Capelle <mcap@...>
 

We all live in a sighted world.


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Dennis L <dennisl1982@...>
 

First I worked with Brian once. He gave his time and tried to get my shut down sound to play. I found him to be very smart and knowledgeable. He knew how to explain things that I understood. He explained what he was doing when we did a remote session. Did the problem get resolved no but that wasn't for a lack of effort on Brian's part. So I agree we shouldn't judge.

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Shaun Everiss
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2020 5:17 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

That could be a little generalistic.

On here, sure probably spot on.

However I have had instances, some of which were in university, where one person helping me actually had a second terminal and looked up keyboard shortcuts and such but another did everything because they didn't know what else to do.

I have had similar issues with some stuff.

Say the system was broken.

Sightling wants to fix the thing themselves.

I try to instruct, and they still get it wrong.

So I guess it works both ways.

I've also had various instructions given to me that were not the right ones.

Some by those that should have known better to.

These were to fix issues that I was asking for.

They ended up breaking things a lot more.

Excluding microsoft support here, I actually had something else that I wanted to get help fixing.

Lets just say the instructions didn't fix things.

They made them worse.

I had to take the long way round, which is the way I usually do if its just to broken for me to care.

Of course things are more complex when they break and it takes me a while to rebuild rather than fix a broken thing.

I have friends that while quite smart with tech, I wouldn't trust enough to tell me how to print a document or update an app, and thats because I have done it the other way.

I guess the good thing is we don't easily get destracted with flashy buttons.

To set up somethings, for say a device, open the right program, install the right driver, etc.

They are open the right program, install the right driver, click the interesting add that looks to say install drivers without reading it.

Load the extra stuff by clicking about, go through instructions to install something without reading the entire screen or worse try to text and do computer work at the same time.

Finnish, put in payment information to install drivers, finally put down their phone and find they are lost.

They ask me, where they are.

And I go updating a program, where did you go, they say don't know.

I installed something told it download now and did a few other things and it all loaded.

And I go, were you on the phone and they go yeah and I go, maybe you give it to me to fix and I try to do it.

Of course once I clear the spyware, and possibly clean install their os, I try the command on my system, their system, my couple extra workstations and find it works and wander, where they went wrong.

I have also had sightlings go all over the place bar the icons they should or get impatient I am navigating slowly to where I need instead of rappidly moving toward it and clicking randomly.

So in some cases its better to be instructing the sightling rather than the other way round.

One of the worst half screen readers is my dad.

At least once a year he loads spyware and other junk on his system because he is trying to follow what should be a simple instruction.

But I guess its the generation.

My now dead grandpa never caught up with computers and my aunt while she knows enough about work stuff and office would panic if windows didn't start with the network working.

She doesn't want to learn either though.

There are those sorts of people about to instruct us to.

So for a beginner, you need to know simple things, like double click translates to enter.

Single click of left could be space, right click is the applications key or shift f10, etc.

All those shaped icons like envelopes and corners just don't work, etc, etc, etc.

In fact even if you are not sure, even if you don't ever want to rtfm like I hardly do, at least read a simple shortcut list of required keys before asking for or instructing and you may get about unless the program is visual in nature.

I learned things through trial and error.

So radio buttons are buttons you can check and uncheck, checkboxes are boxes, combo boxes and list boxes are just boxes with lists in them.

And some stuff doesn't translate at all.

Instructions are generally fine from a sighted person, but depends what they are, those can be subjective.




On 31/12/2020 9:43 am, Gene wrote:
There is no inherent reason a sighted person can't provide
instructions that correspond to the way blind people generally do
things on computers or anywhere else. It depends what they know.


Conversely, and this is being overlooked in the discussion, blind
people who know how can provide instructions similar to what a sighted
person would provide for a sighted person.


for example, I could tell a sighted person to open a program, click on
the tools menu or the gear icon, if I knew that is how it is shown,
and it usually is, then click options, and so on.


The ability to do this means that a blind person understands how to
apply sighted instructions to using a computer as a blind person
usually does. If blind people know something about translating
sighted instructions into blind procedures, they will be able to help
themselves learn more programs and can often follow instructions on
how to work with this or that feature in programs they already use
that are written for sighted people.


If a blind person is interested and wants to learn these things, the
benefits may be meaningful to the person. Many blind people only use
programs that have specific instructional material for blind people
and their interests don't go further. But its important that this
other side of the discussion be pointed out.


Gene

On 12/30/2020 2:19 PM, Jackie wrote:

I think Arlene was just trying to say that Brian doesn't instruct like
most sighted folks. The context of the message bears that out, I
believe.

Full moon. It hsows. Last of 2020. Ow-oo. Happy New Year, all.

On 12/30/20, Gary Metzler <gmtravel@comcast.net> wrote:
Very well said.



From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Nimer
Jaber
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2020 2:55 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read
#adminnotice



Hello Arlene,



I would like to challenge your message and thinking a little bit. I am
posting publicly, because it is an important topic. While you seem
to be in
support of Brian, I couldn't help but notice that you stated that Brian
doesn't sound "blind".



What does a blind person sound like? Is it really necessary to judge
people
as sounding a certain way? Isn't it better if we choose to not
judge, not
have preconceived notions which divide us and put barriers between
us? Isn't
the rest of the world already divided? Should we not model, as a
community,
the very definition of non-discrimination? That is my ideal, anyway,
my hope
in writing this message. We all are human beings. We all are beautiful,
unique souls. The things that bring us together should be the things we
honor and acknowledge. Brian brings so many strengths to the table as a
moderator, we should all appreciate those things about Brian that
makes him
the wonderful individual that he is. Same goes for anyone else on
this list.
We all have struggles, we all have cultural differences, we all have
differing opinions on politics and whatever else, but at the end of
the day,
every single one of you are all beatutiful, human souls, regardless
of your
physical characteristics.



For me, I welcome anyone on this list, and as a moderator, without
regard to
any physical, religious, sex, etc characteristics, and I urge
everyone to
drop your preconceived notions as to who any of us are, and focus
please, on
the things that bring us together, and celebrate those things that
make us
unique.



Thank you everyone for the support you are showing Brian.



On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 11:32 AM Arlene <nedster66@gmail.com
<mailto:nedster66@gmail.com> > wrote:

I had no clue you can see. The way you talk like the blind users. I
thought
you were blind like us. Well, keep up the good work. You’d be a good
advocate for blind users who have to fight with isp providers. You
know how
they say click here or there. They have no clue that you are a blind
user.
I’ve encountered someone who had no clue that I don’t see. The
person said
Oh don’t listen to the screen reader listen to me. I said that
screen reader
helps me help you see the screen. He tried to tell me to click a
green box.
Just then a sighted friend who happened to know how to talk like us
blind
users. She told the person on the phone that I don’t see. He felt
like a
fool! This screen reader was NVDA. I don’t know if this is true. This
friend said that NVDA looks more like windows. She described that it
interacts more like you would see windows like a sighted person.
Some of
the key commands are similar to Jaws. Even my food safe tutor said
the NVDA
screen reader looks more like windows. He had full sight.



Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for
Windows
10



From: Brian Vogel <mailto:britechguy@gmail.com>
Sent: December 30, 2020 9:29 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read
#adminnotice



Rosemarie and Arlene,

I just wanted to thank you for your kind words, and
particularly
for your saying you'd forgotten or not known that I am sighted. I do
mention this occasionally because I do not want anyone, on any of
the blind
technology groups on which I participate, to ever believe I am
trying to
impersonate a blind person nor making any claim that I can or do
know, a in
lived experience sense, what it is to be blind. I've simply worked
with
blind technology and individuals who are blind and visually impaired
for
quite a few years now and that's taught me an awful lot.

But it's very nice to know that, at least for the most
part, much
of what I now write in these venues reads in such a way that the
fact that I
see is not at all readily obvious unless I bring it up or someone
else does.
There are times where the fact that I can see is relevant, and it
makes
perfect sense for that to be mentioned when it is. But when it's not
germane to the conversation it just isn't.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by
Texas to
overturn the votes certified by 4 states:] Pleased with the SCOTUS
ruling,
but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train
goes next.
We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House
Paul Ryan
and John Boehner










--

Best,

Nimer Jaber

The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it was
addressed. If you believe that you are not the intended recipient,
please notify me via reply email and destroy all copies of this
correspondence. Action taken as a result of this email or its contents
by anyone other than the intended recipient(s) may result in civil or
criminal charges. I have checked this email and all corresponding
attachments for security threats.


Registered Linux User 529141.
http://counter.li.org/

To find out about a free, open-source, and versatile screen reader for
Windows, visit nvaccess.org <http://www.nvda-project.org>

You can follow @nimerjaber on Twitter for the latest technology news.

To contact me, you can reply to this email or you may call me at (970)
(393-4481) and I will do my best to respond to you promptly.



Thank you, and have a great day!












Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Nimer Jaber
 

Hello Shaun,

I had trouble following your message, but I think your message goes against everything I said. What your experience is of course matters, and is legitimate, but it doesn't help you move past your stereotypes. I believe that each interaction should be viewed as unique, and personally, I've had just as many issues with blind people as I have with non-blind people. Same kinds of issues, too. So from my perspective, it is important to take each interaction as an opportunity to learn from someone, to grow, and to not bring up a long history of how it is wrong to not accept a sighted person's instructions. So for me, I welcome Brian's instruction, and anyone else that comes on this list, without the verbiage of their sight or lack of it.

Thanks everyone for this discussion. Ordinarily, I would say that this should be moved to the chat list, but maybe we'll keep it going for a bit longer, as it seems like an important dialog to be having.

On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 2:21 PM Rosemarie Chavarria <knitqueen2007@...> wrote:
I couldn't have said it better.



On 12/30/2020 11:54 AM, Nimer Jaber wrote:
> Hello Arlene,
>
> I would like to challenge your message and thinking a little bit. I am
> posting publicly, because it is an important topic. While you seem to be in
> support of Brian, I couldn't help but notice that you stated that Brian
> doesn't sound "blind".
>
> What does a blind person sound like? Is it really necessary to judge people
> as sounding a certain way? Isn't it better if we choose to not judge, not
> have preconceived notions which divide us and put barriers between us?
> Isn't the rest of the world already divided? Should we not model, as a
> community, the very definition of non-discrimination? That is my ideal,
> anyway, my hope in writing this message. We all are human beings. We all
> are beautiful, unique souls. The things that bring us together should be
> the things we honor and acknowledge. Brian brings so many strengths to the
> table as a moderator, we should all appreciate those things about Brian
> that makes him the wonderful individual that he is. Same goes for anyone
> else on this list. We all have struggles, we all have cultural differences,
> we all have differing opinions on politics and whatever else, but at the
> end of the day, every single one of you are all beatutiful, human souls,
> regardless of your physical characteristics.
>
> For me, I welcome anyone on this list, and as a moderator, without regard
> to any physical, religious, sex, etc characteristics, and I urge everyone
> to drop your preconceived notions as to who any of us are, and focus
> please, on the things that bring us together, and celebrate those things
> that make us unique.
>
> Thank you everyone for the support you are showing Brian.
>
> On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 11:32 AM Arlene <nedster66@...> wrote:
>
>> I had no clue you can see. The way you talk like the blind users. I
>> thought you were blind like us.  Well, keep up the good work. You’d be a
>> good advocate for blind users who have to fight with isp providers.  You
>> know how they say click here or there. They have no clue that you are a
>> blind user.  I’ve encountered someone who had no clue that I don’t see.
>> The person said Oh don’t listen to the screen reader listen to me. I said
>> that screen reader helps me help you see the screen.  He tried to tell me
>> to click a green box. Just then a sighted friend who happened to know how
>> to talk like us blind users.  She told the person on the phone that I don’t
>> see.  He felt like a fool! This screen reader was NVDA.  I don’t know if
>> this is true. This friend said that NVDA looks more like windows. She
>> described that it interacts more like you would see windows like a sighted
>> person.  Some of the key commands are similar to Jaws.  Even my food safe
>> tutor said the NVDA screen reader looks more like windows.  He had full
>> sight.
>>
>>
>>
>> Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for
>> Windows 10
>>
>>
>>
>> *From: *Brian Vogel <britechguy@...>
>> *Sent: *December 30, 2020 9:29 AM
>> *To: *nvda@nvda.groups.io
>> *Subject: *Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read
>> #adminnotice
>>
>>
>>
>> Rosemarie and Arlene,
>>
>>             I just wanted to thank you for your kind words, and
>> particularly for your saying you'd forgotten or not known that I am
>> sighted.  I do mention this occasionally because I do not want anyone, on
>> any of the blind technology groups on which I participate, to ever believe
>> I am trying to impersonate a blind person nor making any claim that I can
>> or do know, a in lived experience sense, what it is to be blind.  I've
>> simply worked with blind technology and individuals who are blind and
>> visually impaired for quite a few years now and that's taught me an awful
>> lot.
>>
>>             But it's very nice to know that, at least for the most part,
>> much of what I now write in these venues reads in such a way that the fact
>> that I see is not at all readily obvious unless I bring it up or someone
>> else does.  There are times where the fact that I can see is relevant, and
>> it makes perfect sense for that to be mentioned when it is.  But when it's
>> not germane to the conversation it just isn't.
>> --
>>
>> Brian *-* Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042
>>
>> [Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas
>> to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:]  *Pleased with the SCOTUS
>> ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train
>> goes next.  We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.*
>>
>>          ~ Brendan Buck, *former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul
>> Ryan and John Boehner*
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>







--
Best,

Nimer Jaber

The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it was
addressed. If you believe that you are not the intended recipient,
please notify me via reply email and destroy all copies of this
correspondence. Action taken as a result of this email or its contents
by anyone other than the intended recipient(s) may result in civil or
criminal charges. I have checked this email and all corresponding
attachments for security threats.

Registered Linux User 529141.
http://counter.li.org/

To find out about a free, open-source, and versatile screen reader for Windows, visit nvaccess.org

You can follow @nimerjaber on Twitter for the latest technology news.

To contact me, you can reply to this email or you may call me at (970) (393-4481) and I will do my best to respond to you promptly.

Thank you, and have a great day!


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Rosemarie Chavarria
 

I couldn't have said it better.

On 12/30/2020 11:54 AM, Nimer Jaber wrote:
Hello Arlene,

I would like to challenge your message and thinking a little bit. I am
posting publicly, because it is an important topic. While you seem to be in
support of Brian, I couldn't help but notice that you stated that Brian
doesn't sound "blind".

What does a blind person sound like? Is it really necessary to judge people
as sounding a certain way? Isn't it better if we choose to not judge, not
have preconceived notions which divide us and put barriers between us?
Isn't the rest of the world already divided? Should we not model, as a
community, the very definition of non-discrimination? That is my ideal,
anyway, my hope in writing this message. We all are human beings. We all
are beautiful, unique souls. The things that bring us together should be
the things we honor and acknowledge. Brian brings so many strengths to the
table as a moderator, we should all appreciate those things about Brian
that makes him the wonderful individual that he is. Same goes for anyone
else on this list. We all have struggles, we all have cultural differences,
we all have differing opinions on politics and whatever else, but at the
end of the day, every single one of you are all beatutiful, human souls,
regardless of your physical characteristics.

For me, I welcome anyone on this list, and as a moderator, without regard
to any physical, religious, sex, etc characteristics, and I urge everyone
to drop your preconceived notions as to who any of us are, and focus
please, on the things that bring us together, and celebrate those things
that make us unique.

Thank you everyone for the support you are showing Brian.

On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 11:32 AM Arlene <nedster66@gmail.com> wrote:

I had no clue you can see. The way you talk like the blind users. I
thought you were blind like us. Well, keep up the good work. You’d be a
good advocate for blind users who have to fight with isp providers. You
know how they say click here or there. They have no clue that you are a
blind user. I’ve encountered someone who had no clue that I don’t see.
The person said Oh don’t listen to the screen reader listen to me. I said
that screen reader helps me help you see the screen. He tried to tell me
to click a green box. Just then a sighted friend who happened to know how
to talk like us blind users. She told the person on the phone that I don’t
see. He felt like a fool! This screen reader was NVDA. I don’t know if
this is true. This friend said that NVDA looks more like windows. She
described that it interacts more like you would see windows like a sighted
person. Some of the key commands are similar to Jaws. Even my food safe
tutor said the NVDA screen reader looks more like windows. He had full
sight.



Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for
Windows 10



*From: *Brian Vogel <britechguy@gmail.com>
*Sent: *December 30, 2020 9:29 AM
*To: *nvda@nvda.groups.io
*Subject: *Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read
#adminnotice



Rosemarie and Arlene,

I just wanted to thank you for your kind words, and
particularly for your saying you'd forgotten or not known that I am
sighted. I do mention this occasionally because I do not want anyone, on
any of the blind technology groups on which I participate, to ever believe
I am trying to impersonate a blind person nor making any claim that I can
or do know, a in lived experience sense, what it is to be blind. I've
simply worked with blind technology and individuals who are blind and
visually impaired for quite a few years now and that's taught me an awful
lot.

But it's very nice to know that, at least for the most part,
much of what I now write in these venues reads in such a way that the fact
that I see is not at all readily obvious unless I bring it up or someone
else does. There are times where the fact that I can see is relevant, and
it makes perfect sense for that to be mentioned when it is. But when it's
not germane to the conversation it just isn't.
--

Brian *-* Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas
to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:] *Pleased with the SCOTUS
ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train
goes next. We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.*

~ Brendan Buck, *former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul
Ryan and John Boehner*







Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

 

That could be a little generalistic.

On here, sure probably spot on.

However I have had instances, some of which were in university, where one person helping me actually had a second terminal and looked up keyboard shortcuts and such but another did everything because they didn't know what else to do.

I have had similar issues with some stuff.

Say the system was broken.

Sightling wants to fix the thing themselves.

I try to instruct, and they still get it wrong.

So I guess it works both ways.

I've also had various instructions given to me that were not the right ones.

Some by those that should have known better to.

These were to fix  issues that I was asking for.

They ended up breaking things a lot more.

Excluding microsoft support here, I actually had something else that I wanted to get help fixing.

Lets just say the instructions didn't fix things.

They made them worse.

I had to take the long way round, which is the way I usually do if its just to broken for me to care.

Of course things are more complex when they break and it takes me a while to rebuild rather than fix a broken thing.

I have friends that while quite smart with tech, I wouldn't trust enough to tell me how to print a document or update an app, and thats because I have done it the other way.

I guess the good thing is we don't easily get destracted with flashy buttons.

To set up somethings, for say a device, open the right program, install the right driver, etc.

They are open the right program, install the right driver, click the interesting add that looks to say install drivers without reading it.

Load the extra stuff by clicking about, go through instructions to install something without reading the entire screen or worse try to text and do computer work at the same time.

Finnish, put in payment information to install drivers, finally put down their phone and find they are lost.

They ask me, where they are.

And I go updating a program, where did you go, they say don't know.

I installed something told it download now and did a few other things and it all loaded.

And I go, were you on the phone and they go yeah and I go, maybe you give it to me to fix and I try to do it.

Of course once I clear the spyware, and possibly clean install their os, I try the command on my system, their system, my couple extra workstations and find it works and wander, where they went wrong.

I have also had sightlings go all over the place bar the icons they should or get impatient I am navigating slowly to where I need instead of rappidly moving toward it and clicking randomly.

So in some cases its better to be instructing the sightling rather than the other way round.

One of the worst half screen readers is my dad.

At least once a year he loads spyware and other junk on his system because he is trying to follow what should be a simple instruction.

But I guess its the generation.

My now dead grandpa never caught up with computers and my aunt while she knows enough about work stuff and office would panic if windows didn't start with the network working.

She doesn't want to learn either though.

There are those sorts of people about to instruct us to.

So for a beginner, you need to know simple things, like double click translates to enter.

Single click of left could be space, right click is the applications key or shift f10, etc.

All those shaped icons like envelopes and corners just don't work, etc, etc, etc.

In fact even if you are not sure, even if you don't ever want to rtfm like I hardly do, at least read a simple shortcut list of required keys before asking for or instructing and you may get about unless the program is visual in nature.

I learned things through trial and error.

So radio buttons are buttons you can check and uncheck, checkboxes are boxes, combo boxes and list boxes are just boxes with lists in them.

And some stuff doesn't translate at all.

Instructions are generally fine from a sighted person, but depends what they are, those can be subjective.

On 31/12/2020 9:43 am, Gene wrote:
There is no inherent reason a sighted person can't provide instructions that correspond to the way blind people generally do things on computers or anywhere else.  It depends what they know.


Conversely, and this is being overlooked in the discussion, blind people who know how can provide instructions similar to what a sighted person would provide for a sighted person.


for example, I could tell a sighted person to open a program, click on the tools menu or the gear icon, if I knew that is how it is shown, and it usually is, then click options, and so on.


The ability to do this means that a blind person understands how to apply sighted instructions to using a computer as a blind person usually does.  If blind people know something about translating sighted instructions into blind procedures, they will be able to help themselves learn more programs and can often follow instructions on how to work with this or that feature in programs they already use that are written for sighted people.


If a blind person is interested and wants to learn these things, the benefits may be meaningful to the person.  Many blind people only use programs that have specific instructional material for blind people and their interests don't go further.  But its important that this other side of the discussion be pointed out.


Gene

On 12/30/2020 2:19 PM, Jackie wrote:

I think Arlene was just trying to say that Brian doesn't instruct like
most sighted folks. The context of the message bears that out, I
believe.

Full moon. It hsows. Last of 2020. Ow-oo. Happy New Year, all.

On 12/30/20, Gary Metzler <gmtravel@comcast.net> wrote:
Very well said.



From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Nimer Jaber
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2020 2:55 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice



Hello Arlene,



I would like to challenge your message and thinking a little bit. I am
posting publicly, because it is an important topic. While you seem to be in
support of Brian, I couldn't help but notice that you stated that Brian
doesn't sound "blind".



What does a blind person sound like? Is it really necessary to judge people
as sounding a certain way? Isn't it better if we choose to not judge, not
have preconceived notions which divide us and put barriers between us? Isn't
the rest of the world already divided? Should we not model, as a community,
the very definition of non-discrimination? That is my ideal, anyway, my hope
in writing this message. We all are human beings. We all are beautiful,
unique souls. The things that bring us together should be the things we
honor and acknowledge. Brian brings so many strengths to the table as a
moderator, we should all appreciate those things about Brian that makes him
the wonderful individual that he is. Same goes for anyone else on this list.
We all have struggles, we all have cultural differences, we all have
differing opinions on politics and whatever else, but at the end of the day,
every single one of you are all beatutiful, human souls, regardless of your
physical characteristics.



For me, I welcome anyone on this list, and as a moderator, without regard to
any physical, religious, sex, etc characteristics, and I urge everyone to
drop your preconceived notions as to who any of us are, and focus please, on
the things that bring us together, and celebrate those things that make us
unique.



Thank you everyone for the support you are showing Brian.



On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 11:32 AM Arlene <nedster66@gmail.com
<mailto:nedster66@gmail.com> > wrote:

I had no clue you can see. The way you talk like the blind users. I thought
you were blind like us.  Well, keep up the good work. You’d be a good
advocate for blind users who have to fight with isp providers.  You know how
they say click here or there. They have no clue that you are a blind user.
I’ve encountered someone who had no clue that I don’t see. The person said
Oh don’t listen to the screen reader listen to me. I said that screen reader
helps me help you see the screen.  He tried to tell me to click a green box.
Just then a sighted friend who happened to know how to talk like us blind
users.  She told the person on the phone that I don’t see.  He felt like a
fool! This screen reader was NVDA.  I don’t know if this is true. This
friend said that NVDA looks more like windows. She described that it
interacts more like you would see windows like a sighted person.  Some of
the key commands are similar to Jaws.  Even my food safe tutor said the NVDA
screen reader looks more like windows.  He had full sight.



Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986>  for Windows
10



From: Brian Vogel <mailto:britechguy@gmail.com>
Sent: December 30, 2020 9:29 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice



Rosemarie and Arlene,

            I just wanted to thank you for your kind words, and particularly
for your saying you'd forgotten or not known that I am sighted.  I do
mention this occasionally because I do not want anyone, on any of the blind
technology groups on which I participate, to ever believe I am trying to
impersonate a blind person nor making any claim that I can or do know, a in
lived experience sense, what it is to be blind.  I've simply worked with
blind technology and individuals who are blind and visually impaired for
quite a few years now and that's taught me an awful lot.

            But it's very nice to know that, at least for the most part, much
of what I now write in these venues reads in such a way that the fact that I
see is not at all readily obvious unless I bring it up or someone else does.
  There are times where the fact that I can see is relevant, and it makes
perfect sense for that to be mentioned when it is.  But when it's not
germane to the conversation it just isn't.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to
overturn the votes certified by 4 states:]  Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling,
but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next.
  We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

         ~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan
and John Boehner










--

Best,

Nimer Jaber

The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it was
addressed. If you believe that you are not the intended recipient,
please notify me via reply email and destroy all copies of this
correspondence. Action taken as a result of this email or its contents
by anyone other than the intended recipient(s) may result in civil or
criminal charges. I have checked this email and all corresponding
attachments for security threats.


Registered Linux User 529141.
http://counter.li.org/

To find out about a free, open-source, and versatile screen reader for
Windows, visit nvaccess.org <http://www.nvda-project.org>

You can follow @nimerjaber on Twitter for the latest technology news.

To contact me, you can reply to this email or you may call me at (970)
(393-4481) and I will do my best to respond to you promptly.



Thank you, and have a great day!











Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Gene
 

There is no inherent reason a sighted person can't provide instructions that correspond to the way blind people generally do things on computers or anywhere else.  It depends what they know.


Conversely, and this is being overlooked in the discussion, blind people who know how can provide instructions similar to what a sighted person would provide for a sighted person.


for example, I could tell a sighted person to open a program, click on the tools menu or the gear icon, if I knew that is how it is shown, and it usually is, then click options, and so on.


The ability to do this means that a blind person understands how to apply sighted instructions to using a computer as a blind person usually does.  If blind people know something about translating sighted instructions into blind procedures, they will be able to help themselves learn more programs and can often follow instructions on how to work with this or that feature in programs they already use that are written for sighted people.


If a blind person is interested and wants to learn these things, the benefits may be meaningful to the person.  Many blind people only use programs that have specific instructional material for blind people and their interests don't go further.  But its important that this other side of the discussion be pointed out.


Gene

On 12/30/2020 2:19 PM, Jackie wrote:

I think Arlene was just trying to say that Brian doesn't instruct like
most sighted folks. The context of the message bears that out, I
believe.

Full moon. It hsows. Last of 2020. Ow-oo. Happy New Year, all.

On 12/30/20, Gary Metzler <gmtravel@comcast.net> wrote:
Very well said.



From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Nimer Jaber
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2020 2:55 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice



Hello Arlene,



I would like to challenge your message and thinking a little bit. I am
posting publicly, because it is an important topic. While you seem to be in
support of Brian, I couldn't help but notice that you stated that Brian
doesn't sound "blind".



What does a blind person sound like? Is it really necessary to judge people
as sounding a certain way? Isn't it better if we choose to not judge, not
have preconceived notions which divide us and put barriers between us? Isn't
the rest of the world already divided? Should we not model, as a community,
the very definition of non-discrimination? That is my ideal, anyway, my hope
in writing this message. We all are human beings. We all are beautiful,
unique souls. The things that bring us together should be the things we
honor and acknowledge. Brian brings so many strengths to the table as a
moderator, we should all appreciate those things about Brian that makes him
the wonderful individual that he is. Same goes for anyone else on this list.
We all have struggles, we all have cultural differences, we all have
differing opinions on politics and whatever else, but at the end of the day,
every single one of you are all beatutiful, human souls, regardless of your
physical characteristics.



For me, I welcome anyone on this list, and as a moderator, without regard to
any physical, religious, sex, etc characteristics, and I urge everyone to
drop your preconceived notions as to who any of us are, and focus please, on
the things that bring us together, and celebrate those things that make us
unique.



Thank you everyone for the support you are showing Brian.



On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 11:32 AM Arlene <nedster66@gmail.com
<mailto:nedster66@gmail.com> > wrote:

I had no clue you can see. The way you talk like the blind users. I thought
you were blind like us. Well, keep up the good work. You’d be a good
advocate for blind users who have to fight with isp providers. You know how
they say click here or there. They have no clue that you are a blind user.
I’ve encountered someone who had no clue that I don’t see. The person said
Oh don’t listen to the screen reader listen to me. I said that screen reader
helps me help you see the screen. He tried to tell me to click a green box.
Just then a sighted friend who happened to know how to talk like us blind
users. She told the person on the phone that I don’t see. He felt like a
fool! This screen reader was NVDA. I don’t know if this is true. This
friend said that NVDA looks more like windows. She described that it
interacts more like you would see windows like a sighted person. Some of
the key commands are similar to Jaws. Even my food safe tutor said the NVDA
screen reader looks more like windows. He had full sight.



Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows
10



From: Brian Vogel <mailto:britechguy@gmail.com>
Sent: December 30, 2020 9:29 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice



Rosemarie and Arlene,

I just wanted to thank you for your kind words, and particularly
for your saying you'd forgotten or not known that I am sighted. I do
mention this occasionally because I do not want anyone, on any of the blind
technology groups on which I participate, to ever believe I am trying to
impersonate a blind person nor making any claim that I can or do know, a in
lived experience sense, what it is to be blind. I've simply worked with
blind technology and individuals who are blind and visually impaired for
quite a few years now and that's taught me an awful lot.

But it's very nice to know that, at least for the most part, much
of what I now write in these venues reads in such a way that the fact that I
see is not at all readily obvious unless I bring it up or someone else does.
There are times where the fact that I can see is relevant, and it makes
perfect sense for that to be mentioned when it is. But when it's not
germane to the conversation it just isn't.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to
overturn the votes certified by 4 states:] Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling,
but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next.
We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan
and John Boehner










--

Best,

Nimer Jaber

The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it was
addressed. If you believe that you are not the intended recipient,
please notify me via reply email and destroy all copies of this
correspondence. Action taken as a result of this email or its contents
by anyone other than the intended recipient(s) may result in civil or
criminal charges. I have checked this email and all corresponding
attachments for security threats.


Registered Linux User 529141.
http://counter.li.org/

To find out about a free, open-source, and versatile screen reader for
Windows, visit nvaccess.org <http://www.nvda-project.org>

You can follow @nimerjaber on Twitter for the latest technology news.

To contact me, you can reply to this email or you may call me at (970)
(393-4481) and I will do my best to respond to you promptly.



Thank you, and have a great day!









Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Luis Carlos González Moráles
 

Didn't know about bryan's vision either. Wow, this world is really changing.
Happy new year all, or as I say, "Happy new decade"!
P.S. I'm composing a new decade anthem "if that's the name of it".

Jackie wrote:

I think Arlene was just trying to say that Brian doesn't instruct like
most sighted folks. The context of the message bears that out, I
believe.

Full moon. It hsows. Last of 2020. Ow-oo. Happy New Year, all.

On 12/30/20, Gary Metzler <gmtravel@comcast.net> wrote:
Very well said.



From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Nimer Jaber
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2020 2:55 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice



Hello Arlene,



I would like to challenge your message and thinking a little bit. I am
posting publicly, because it is an important topic. While you seem to be in
support of Brian, I couldn't help but notice that you stated that Brian
doesn't sound "blind".



What does a blind person sound like? Is it really necessary to judge people
as sounding a certain way? Isn't it better if we choose to not judge, not
have preconceived notions which divide us and put barriers between us? Isn't
the rest of the world already divided? Should we not model, as a community,
the very definition of non-discrimination? That is my ideal, anyway, my hope
in writing this message. We all are human beings. We all are beautiful,
unique souls. The things that bring us together should be the things we
honor and acknowledge. Brian brings so many strengths to the table as a
moderator, we should all appreciate those things about Brian that makes him
the wonderful individual that he is. Same goes for anyone else on this list.
We all have struggles, we all have cultural differences, we all have
differing opinions on politics and whatever else, but at the end of the day,
every single one of you are all beatutiful, human souls, regardless of your
physical characteristics.



For me, I welcome anyone on this list, and as a moderator, without regard to
any physical, religious, sex, etc characteristics, and I urge everyone to
drop your preconceived notions as to who any of us are, and focus please, on
the things that bring us together, and celebrate those things that make us
unique.



Thank you everyone for the support you are showing Brian.



On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 11:32 AM Arlene <nedster66@gmail.com
<mailto:nedster66@gmail.com> > wrote:

I had no clue you can see. The way you talk like the blind users. I thought
you were blind like us. Well, keep up the good work. You’d be a good
advocate for blind users who have to fight with isp providers. You know how
they say click here or there. They have no clue that you are a blind user.
I’ve encountered someone who had no clue that I don’t see. The person said
Oh don’t listen to the screen reader listen to me. I said that screen reader
helps me help you see the screen. He tried to tell me to click a green box.
Just then a sighted friend who happened to know how to talk like us blind
users. She told the person on the phone that I don’t see. He felt like a
fool! This screen reader was NVDA. I don’t know if this is true. This
friend said that NVDA looks more like windows. She described that it
interacts more like you would see windows like a sighted person. Some of
the key commands are similar to Jaws. Even my food safe tutor said the NVDA
screen reader looks more like windows. He had full sight.



Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows
10



From: Brian Vogel <mailto:britechguy@gmail.com>
Sent: December 30, 2020 9:29 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice



Rosemarie and Arlene,

I just wanted to thank you for your kind words, and particularly
for your saying you'd forgotten or not known that I am sighted. I do
mention this occasionally because I do not want anyone, on any of the blind
technology groups on which I participate, to ever believe I am trying to
impersonate a blind person nor making any claim that I can or do know, a in
lived experience sense, what it is to be blind. I've simply worked with
blind technology and individuals who are blind and visually impaired for
quite a few years now and that's taught me an awful lot.

But it's very nice to know that, at least for the most part, much
of what I now write in these venues reads in such a way that the fact that I
see is not at all readily obvious unless I bring it up or someone else does.
There are times where the fact that I can see is relevant, and it makes
perfect sense for that to be mentioned when it is. But when it's not
germane to the conversation it just isn't.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to
overturn the votes certified by 4 states:] Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling,
but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next.
We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan
and John Boehner










--

Best,

Nimer Jaber

The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it was
addressed. If you believe that you are not the intended recipient,
please notify me via reply email and destroy all copies of this
correspondence. Action taken as a result of this email or its contents
by anyone other than the intended recipient(s) may result in civil or
criminal charges. I have checked this email and all corresponding
attachments for security threats.


Registered Linux User 529141.
http://counter.li.org/

To find out about a free, open-source, and versatile screen reader for
Windows, visit nvaccess.org <http://www.nvda-project.org>

You can follow @nimerjaber on Twitter for the latest technology news.

To contact me, you can reply to this email or you may call me at (970)
(393-4481) and I will do my best to respond to you promptly.



Thank you, and have a great day!








--
El software de antivirus Avast ha analizado este correo electrónico en busca de virus.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Jackie
 

I think Arlene was just trying to say that Brian doesn't instruct like
most sighted folks. The context of the message bears that out, I
believe.

Full moon. It hsows. Last of 2020. Ow-oo. Happy New Year, all.

On 12/30/20, Gary Metzler <gmtravel@comcast.net> wrote:
Very well said.



From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Nimer Jaber
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2020 2:55 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice



Hello Arlene,



I would like to challenge your message and thinking a little bit. I am
posting publicly, because it is an important topic. While you seem to be in
support of Brian, I couldn't help but notice that you stated that Brian
doesn't sound "blind".



What does a blind person sound like? Is it really necessary to judge people
as sounding a certain way? Isn't it better if we choose to not judge, not
have preconceived notions which divide us and put barriers between us? Isn't
the rest of the world already divided? Should we not model, as a community,
the very definition of non-discrimination? That is my ideal, anyway, my hope
in writing this message. We all are human beings. We all are beautiful,
unique souls. The things that bring us together should be the things we
honor and acknowledge. Brian brings so many strengths to the table as a
moderator, we should all appreciate those things about Brian that makes him
the wonderful individual that he is. Same goes for anyone else on this list.
We all have struggles, we all have cultural differences, we all have
differing opinions on politics and whatever else, but at the end of the day,
every single one of you are all beatutiful, human souls, regardless of your
physical characteristics.



For me, I welcome anyone on this list, and as a moderator, without regard to
any physical, religious, sex, etc characteristics, and I urge everyone to
drop your preconceived notions as to who any of us are, and focus please, on
the things that bring us together, and celebrate those things that make us
unique.



Thank you everyone for the support you are showing Brian.



On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 11:32 AM Arlene <nedster66@gmail.com
<mailto:nedster66@gmail.com> > wrote:

I had no clue you can see. The way you talk like the blind users. I thought
you were blind like us. Well, keep up the good work. You’d be a good
advocate for blind users who have to fight with isp providers. You know how
they say click here or there. They have no clue that you are a blind user.
I’ve encountered someone who had no clue that I don’t see. The person said
Oh don’t listen to the screen reader listen to me. I said that screen reader
helps me help you see the screen. He tried to tell me to click a green box.
Just then a sighted friend who happened to know how to talk like us blind
users. She told the person on the phone that I don’t see. He felt like a
fool! This screen reader was NVDA. I don’t know if this is true. This
friend said that NVDA looks more like windows. She described that it
interacts more like you would see windows like a sighted person. Some of
the key commands are similar to Jaws. Even my food safe tutor said the NVDA
screen reader looks more like windows. He had full sight.



Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows
10



From: Brian Vogel <mailto:britechguy@gmail.com>
Sent: December 30, 2020 9:29 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice



Rosemarie and Arlene,

I just wanted to thank you for your kind words, and particularly
for your saying you'd forgotten or not known that I am sighted. I do
mention this occasionally because I do not want anyone, on any of the blind
technology groups on which I participate, to ever believe I am trying to
impersonate a blind person nor making any claim that I can or do know, a in
lived experience sense, what it is to be blind. I've simply worked with
blind technology and individuals who are blind and visually impaired for
quite a few years now and that's taught me an awful lot.

But it's very nice to know that, at least for the most part, much
of what I now write in these venues reads in such a way that the fact that I
see is not at all readily obvious unless I bring it up or someone else does.
There are times where the fact that I can see is relevant, and it makes
perfect sense for that to be mentioned when it is. But when it's not
germane to the conversation it just isn't.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to
overturn the votes certified by 4 states:] Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling,
but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next.
We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan
and John Boehner










--

Best,

Nimer Jaber

The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it was
addressed. If you believe that you are not the intended recipient,
please notify me via reply email and destroy all copies of this
correspondence. Action taken as a result of this email or its contents
by anyone other than the intended recipient(s) may result in civil or
criminal charges. I have checked this email and all corresponding
attachments for security threats.


Registered Linux User 529141.
http://counter.li.org/

To find out about a free, open-source, and versatile screen reader for
Windows, visit nvaccess.org <http://www.nvda-project.org>

You can follow @nimerjaber on Twitter for the latest technology news.

To contact me, you can reply to this email or you may call me at (970)
(393-4481) and I will do my best to respond to you promptly.



Thank you, and have a great day!








--
Subscribe to a WordPress for Newbies Mailing List by sending a message to:
wp4newbs-request@freelists.org with 'subscribe' in the Subject field OR by
visiting the list page at http://www.freelists.org/list/wp4newbs
& check out my sites at www.brightstarsweb.com & www.mysitesbeenhacked.com


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Gary Metzler
 

Very well said.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Nimer Jaber
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2020 2:55 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

 

Hello Arlene,

 

I would like to challenge your message and thinking a little bit. I am posting publicly, because it is an important topic. While you seem to be in support of Brian, I couldn't help but notice that you stated that Brian doesn't sound "blind".

 

What does a blind person sound like? Is it really necessary to judge people as sounding a certain way? Isn't it better if we choose to not judge, not have preconceived notions which divide us and put barriers between us? Isn't the rest of the world already divided? Should we not model, as a community, the very definition of non-discrimination? That is my ideal, anyway, my hope in writing this message. We all are human beings. We all are beautiful, unique souls. The things that bring us together should be the things we honor and acknowledge. Brian brings so many strengths to the table as a moderator, we should all appreciate those things about Brian that makes him the wonderful individual that he is. Same goes for anyone else on this list. We all have struggles, we all have cultural differences, we all have differing opinions on politics and whatever else, but at the end of the day, every single one of you are all beatutiful, human souls, regardless of your physical characteristics.

 

For me, I welcome anyone on this list, and as a moderator, without regard to any physical, religious, sex, etc characteristics, and I urge everyone to drop your preconceived notions as to who any of us are, and focus please, on the things that bring us together, and celebrate those things that make us unique.

 

Thank you everyone for the support you are showing Brian.

 

On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 11:32 AM Arlene <nedster66@...> wrote:

I had no clue you can see. The way you talk like the blind users. I thought you were blind like us.  Well, keep up the good work. You’d be a good advocate for blind users who have to fight with isp providers.  You know how they say click here or there. They have no clue that you are a blind user.  I’ve encountered someone who had no clue that I don’t see.  The person said Oh don’t listen to the screen reader listen to me. I said that screen reader helps me help you see the screen.  He tried to tell me to click a green box. Just then a sighted friend who happened to know how to talk like us blind users.  She told the person on the phone that I don’t see.  He felt like a fool! This screen reader was NVDA.  I don’t know if this is true. This friend said that NVDA looks more like windows. She described that it interacts more like you would see windows like a sighted person.  Some of the key commands are similar to Jaws.  Even my food safe tutor said the NVDA screen reader looks more like windows.  He had full sight.   

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Brian Vogel
Sent: December 30, 2020 9:29 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

 

Rosemarie and Arlene,

           I just wanted to thank you for your kind words, and particularly for your saying you'd forgotten or not known that I am sighted.  I do mention this occasionally because I do not want anyone, on any of the blind technology groups on which I participate, to ever believe I am trying to impersonate a blind person nor making any claim that I can or do know, a in lived experience sense, what it is to be blind.  I've simply worked with blind technology and individuals who are blind and visually impaired for quite a few years now and that's taught me an awful lot.

           But it's very nice to know that, at least for the most part, much of what I now write in these venues reads in such a way that the fact that I see is not at all readily obvious unless I bring it up or someone else does.  There are times where the fact that I can see is relevant, and it makes perfect sense for that to be mentioned when it is.  But when it's not germane to the conversation it just isn't.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next.  We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

        ~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner 

 

 


 

--

Best,

Nimer Jaber

The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it was
addressed. If you believe that you are not the intended recipient,
please notify me via reply email and destroy all copies of this
correspondence. Action taken as a result of this email or its contents
by anyone other than the intended recipient(s) may result in civil or
criminal charges. I have checked this email and all corresponding
attachments for security threats.


Registered Linux User 529141.
http://counter.li.org/

To find out about a free, open-source, and versatile screen reader for Windows, visit nvaccess.org

You can follow @nimerjaber on Twitter for the latest technology news.

To contact me, you can reply to this email or you may call me at (970) (393-4481) and I will do my best to respond to you promptly.

 

Thank you, and have a great day!


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Nimer Jaber
 

Hello Arlene,

I would like to challenge your message and thinking a little bit. I am posting publicly, because it is an important topic. While you seem to be in support of Brian, I couldn't help but notice that you stated that Brian doesn't sound "blind".

What does a blind person sound like? Is it really necessary to judge people as sounding a certain way? Isn't it better if we choose to not judge, not have preconceived notions which divide us and put barriers between us? Isn't the rest of the world already divided? Should we not model, as a community, the very definition of non-discrimination? That is my ideal, anyway, my hope in writing this message. We all are human beings. We all are beautiful, unique souls. The things that bring us together should be the things we honor and acknowledge. Brian brings so many strengths to the table as a moderator, we should all appreciate those things about Brian that makes him the wonderful individual that he is. Same goes for anyone else on this list. We all have struggles, we all have cultural differences, we all have differing opinions on politics and whatever else, but at the end of the day, every single one of you are all beatutiful, human souls, regardless of your physical characteristics.

For me, I welcome anyone on this list, and as a moderator, without regard to any physical, religious, sex, etc characteristics, and I urge everyone to drop your preconceived notions as to who any of us are, and focus please, on the things that bring us together, and celebrate those things that make us unique.

Thank you everyone for the support you are showing Brian.

On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 11:32 AM Arlene <nedster66@...> wrote:

I had no clue you can see. The way you talk like the blind users. I thought you were blind like us.  Well, keep up the good work. You’d be a good advocate for blind users who have to fight with isp providers.  You know how they say click here or there. They have no clue that you are a blind user.  I’ve encountered someone who had no clue that I don’t see.  The person said Oh don’t listen to the screen reader listen to me. I said that screen reader helps me help you see the screen.  He tried to tell me to click a green box. Just then a sighted friend who happened to know how to talk like us blind users.  She told the person on the phone that I don’t see.  He felt like a fool! This screen reader was NVDA.  I don’t know if this is true. This friend said that NVDA looks more like windows. She described that it interacts more like you would see windows like a sighted person.  Some of the key commands are similar to Jaws.  Even my food safe tutor said the NVDA screen reader looks more like windows.  He had full sight.   

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Brian Vogel
Sent: December 30, 2020 9:29 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

 

Rosemarie and Arlene,

           I just wanted to thank you for your kind words, and particularly for your saying you'd forgotten or not known that I am sighted.  I do mention this occasionally because I do not want anyone, on any of the blind technology groups on which I participate, to ever believe I am trying to impersonate a blind person nor making any claim that I can or do know, a in lived experience sense, what it is to be blind.  I've simply worked with blind technology and individuals who are blind and visually impaired for quite a few years now and that's taught me an awful lot.

           But it's very nice to know that, at least for the most part, much of what I now write in these venues reads in such a way that the fact that I see is not at all readily obvious unless I bring it up or someone else does.  There are times where the fact that I can see is relevant, and it makes perfect sense for that to be mentioned when it is.  But when it's not germane to the conversation it just isn't.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next.  We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

        ~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner 

 

 



--
Best,

Nimer Jaber

The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it was
addressed. If you believe that you are not the intended recipient,
please notify me via reply email and destroy all copies of this
correspondence. Action taken as a result of this email or its contents
by anyone other than the intended recipient(s) may result in civil or
criminal charges. I have checked this email and all corresponding
attachments for security threats.

Registered Linux User 529141.
http://counter.li.org/

To find out about a free, open-source, and versatile screen reader for Windows, visit nvaccess.org

You can follow @nimerjaber on Twitter for the latest technology news.

To contact me, you can reply to this email or you may call me at (970) (393-4481) and I will do my best to respond to you promptly.

Thank you, and have a great day!


Re: NVDA and outlook questions

Arlene
 

I did see that you can use your Microsoft outlook 2010 key. Then I can upgrade to the latest version. I know you can That’s why I was asking if you have to pay.

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Dan Miner via groups.io
Sent: December 29, 2020 11:11 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA and outlook questions

 

Yes, please inquiry to Microsoft.  I just use the products.  *smile*

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Chris Smart
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2020 12:08 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA and outlook questions

 

microsoft may know the answer to that one.

 

 

On 2020-12-30 2:01 a.m., Arlene wrote:

Hey, speaking of outlook. If I upgrade from outlook 2010 with my outlook key. Do I have to pay for the upgrade?  I don’t care if I do. I am inquiring.  Thanks.  

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Dan Miner via groups.io
Sent: December 29, 2020 10:57 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA and outlook questions

 

Your version number suggests you have some kind of subscription and Office 365 is the only recent offerings I know of.  So, if that is the case you probably just need to login to your Microsoft account (via the File menu using that account management option) and update.  I did just that about 2 weeks ago.

 

Compared to 2016, the latest Office has been working better in my experiences.  Even the calendar is becoming more and more useable.

 

 

    Dan

> On Dec 29, 2020, at 6:52 PM, Dennis L <dennisl1982@...> wrote:

>

> Does outlook 2019 work better?

>

> -----Original Message-----

> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Dan Miner via

> groups.io

> Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2020 5:28 PM

> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

> Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA and outlook questions

>

> Well, if it is a 2016 based version then you likely will have the problem of

> it not reading suggestions easily.  I always had to fiddle around with it to

> get anything.  I vaguely remember using object navigation to dive into the

> enclosing frame   It I was truly needing to use that feature, I would just

> switch to JAWS 18 and it would read in a more natural way.  I would give

> recent Narrator a try and see how it fairs with that dropdown.

>

>    Dan

> -----Original Message-----

> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Dennis L

> Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2020 8:57 AM

> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

> Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA and outlook questions

>

> I believe it is 2016.  This is the version number I got when I used jaws and

> got the version number.

> Microsoft Outlook Subscription Version 16.0.13426.20404 -----Original

> Message-----

> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Dan Miner via

> groups.io

> Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2020 10:43 AM

> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

> Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA and outlook questions

>

> I have Outlook from Office 365 and if I recall this thread was about the To

> field and reading the type-ahead suggestion reading?  When I was using

> Outlook 2016, I had this problem of it not reading but I did a bit of

> testing again on this version.  It seems to be working fine with the type

> ahead for reading the first suggestion and changing as I progress on typing.

> Also, a simple down arrow will read the remaining suggestions.  I don't

> recall which version you have but I am wondering if that is a factor here.

>

> -----Original Message-----

> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Dennis L

> Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2020 12:28 AM

> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

> Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA and outlook questions

>

> There is no outlook setting I know of where I have to adjust it for the

> screen reader to properly read other screen readers read it.  so should

> NVDA.

>

> -----Original Message-----

> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of David Griffith

> Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2020 12:40 AM

> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

> Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA and outlook questions

>

>

> I think there is a setting.

> You need to go to, in Outlook to File then Options and then under Mail find

> the setting which says Automatic Name checking  and make sure that that is

> checked.

> I have this checked and if Dennis does not then this may explain the

> different behaviour.

> David G.

> -----Original Message-----

> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene

> Sent: 29 December 2020 03:39

> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

> Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA and outlook questions

>

> I know of no such setting.  This is very likely another instance where you

> have to help the screen-reader in some way by using read current line as you

> type.  I don't know why Outlook is different, in the address bar in the

> browsers I use, autocomplete will read as what I type changes.

>

> Gene

> -----Original Message-----

> From: Dennis L

> Sent: Monday, December 28, 2020 7:26 PM

> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

> Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA and outlook questions

>

>

>

> I have the setting

>

> Automatic say on page load unchecked.  I was able to get it to read the

> first suggestion but not more suggestions.  Example if I type j and joe

> smith is first it will read that if I continue typing and type john it won’t

> read John smith can this be changed that it will continuously read the

> suggestions?

>

>

>

> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of David Griffith

> Sent: Monday, December 28, 2020 5:58 PM

> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

> Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA and outlook questions

>

>

>

>

>

> This is slightly odd as this is precisely hwat NVDA does for me in Outlook.

> I have just tried it and if I press K the most recent email I have typed

>

>

>

> whose name begins with K. Pressing the down arrow reveals other addresses

> beginning with K.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> I wonder if there is a setting in Outlook about keeping recent addresses you

> need to turn on?

>

>

>

> Having said that it is also true that this feature does not, for me at

> least,  any longer, reveal results from all your contacts. I often have to

> go into the to button and search in there to reveal all my addresses in

> contacts.

>

>

>

> David G.

>

>

>

> On 28/12/2020 21:56, Dennis L wrote:

>

>

>

> Hi, I was wondering is there a way to get NVDA to automatically read the

> suggestions that come up when you are typing the address or persons name who

> the message is to?

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Nimer Jaber
 

Hello Jimmy,

No, Brian is not going anywhere, unless he chooses to. Thank you all for your support of Brian!

On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 11:36 AM Jimmy Vonderlinden via groups.io <jimmyv1130=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
you are amazing and Ive learned alot from you and everyone on this list. I hope this isn't the end of you or this great llist. I would hate to see it go!
Hope you all have a happy new year!



--
Best,

Nimer Jaber

The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it was
addressed. If you believe that you are not the intended recipient,
please notify me via reply email and destroy all copies of this
correspondence. Action taken as a result of this email or its contents
by anyone other than the intended recipient(s) may result in civil or
criminal charges. I have checked this email and all corresponding
attachments for security threats.

Registered Linux User 529141.
http://counter.li.org/

To find out about a free, open-source, and versatile screen reader for Windows, visit nvaccess.org

You can follow @nimerjaber on Twitter for the latest technology news.

To contact me, you can reply to this email or you may call me at (970) (393-4481) and I will do my best to respond to you promptly.

Thank you, and have a great day!


Re: How to turn off NVDA

Arlene
 

If you did all 3 steps turning off NVDA. Once you hear the exiting sound then there’s silence.  I don’t think you can use its key commands once its gone. You probably can but you’ll hear nothing.   If you entered on a desktop short cut it wil open but you won’t hear what you opened.  

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Tyler Spivey
Sent: December 30, 2020 11:21 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How to turn off NVDA

 

Can you tell us exactly what happens when you turn off NVDA (or record

it)? Here's what should happen:

1. Press NVDA+q to quit. It should pop up the Exit NVDA dialog.

2. Press enter. You should hear the descending sound indicating NVDA exited.

If you don't, check the log by going to the NVDA menu, Tools, View log.

Can you still use NVDA commands after you do that?

 

On 12/30/2020 10:40 AM, Food Posse wrote:

> What a wonderful group!!

>

> To answer what folks on this list so helpfully offered and asked:

>

> Unfortunately, this is her own personal computer and the only one she

> has so no option to change computers. Narrator is pre-installed but she

> really wants NVDA.

>

> It is definitely NVDA and not Narrator. Narrator is set to only use the

> Caps Lock with a voice higher in pitch and speed to differentiate. NVDA

> only with Insert. This was a really good idea since we did not think of it!

>

> We applied the suggestion to Reset NVDA configuration to factory default

> but the same thing continues.

>

> We uninstalled NVDA through the Apps & features settings option. No

> remaining folders with NVDA. Then downloaded a new copy of NVDA to install.

>

> This is a new computer and we only installed and customized a couple of

> programs so it is not too much of a beast to reinstall windows and do it

> all again. But this will take some time so I wanted to test some of the

> other suggestions first.

>

> But some thoughts are coming to mind that I want to further investigate

> before a complete wipe. Assuming the os is not corrupt, then something

> is keeping an instance of NVDA active or NVDA is attaching itself to

> something active like a utility so I want to follow that logic a bit

> without going indefinitely down a rabbit hole!

>

> Any other ideas is most welcome!

>

>

> On 12/29/2020 2:30 PM, hurrikennyandopo ... wrote:

>> 

>> Hi

>> 

>> 

>> When you said you fully uninstalled nvda was that only from program

>> and features?

>> 

>> 

>> There is another area where the settings are keaped that should be

>> deleted if you are having problems if the nvda.ini file mucks up.

>> 

>> 

>> After NvDA has been uninstalled from program and features  do the

>> following.

>> 

>> 

>> Press the windows key + the letter R it will bring up a run dialogue

>> box then type the following %appdata% then press the enter key.

>> 

>> 

>> The next screen that comes up will give you a list of directories

>> find the one called nvda then delete it out then close the screen with

>> the alt + f4 key.

>> 

>> 

>> then reinstall nvda. It might be a good idea actually to grab a fresh

>> copy of it from nvaccess then reinstall it to the pc.

>> 

>> Just in case you got a bad down load before.

>> 

>> 

>> Use the narrator screen reader to do the above unless you have some

>> sight to do it.

>> 

>> 

>> Did you try a factory reset of nvda? this some times fixes any problems.

>> 

>> 

>> Use the nvda key + letter N to bring up the menu when it is running

>> then arrow down to Reset configuration to factory defaults then press

>> the enter key.

>> 

>> 

>> Make sure also that when you go to set it up again you see the message

>> like which layout, do you want to use the caps lock key as a modifier

>> start nvda at startup etc.

>> 

>> 

>> I think the short cut to do the reset is nvda key + ctrl + R 3 times.

>> 

>> 

>> GGene nz

>> 

>> 

>> 

>> On 30/12/2020 4:58 am, Food Posse wrote:

>>> 

>>> Thank you for the troubleshooting efforts.

>>> 

>>> We did not select the option to launch NVDA at windows login. But

>>> even if it was, sounds like NVDA should not auto-launch after closing

>>> unless activated by a person. We did not change any other NVDA

>>> default settings.

>>> 

>>> So we uninstalled and reinstalled NVDA but the same thing happens -

>>> Insert+Q, dialog box open, default option is already Exit, dialog box

>>> closes but NVDA continues to read the screen. Then when forced to

>>> close through the Task Manager, NVDA still automatically relaunches

>>> at various times like launching an app.

>>> 

>>> This is a new system so it should be pretty clean. There are very few

>>> programs other than what came pre-installed with the laptop. AVG was

>>> downloaded to confirm no viruses on the computer or on the NVDA exe

>>> before we reinstalled. We even checked the startup options in the

>>> Task Manager and NVDA is not on the list. Our friend really wants

>>> NVDA but we are not sure what else to try.

>>> 

>>> 

>>> On 12/28/2020 3:05 PM, Gene wrote:

>>>> I suspect the reason NVDA automatically comes on when set to run at

>>>> the login screen when the secure desktop comes up may be that NVDA

>>>> loads another version of itself to run when the secure desktop

>>>> opens.  My guess is that there is a relation between this and the

>>>> setting to automatically run at the login screen.  Perhaps one of

>>>> the developers will discuss the matter.

>>>> 

>>>> Gene

>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Brian Vogel

>>>> Sent: Monday, December 28, 2020 2:00 PM

>>>> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

>>>> Subject: Re: [nvda] How to turn off NVDA

>>>> 

>>>> On Mon, Dec 28, 2020 at 02:21 PM, Bob Cavanaugh wrote:

>>>> Actually, this isn't always the case. If the option to use NVDA on the

>>>> log-on screen is checked, it annoyingly pops up on every screen that

>>>> requires administrative action, and stays there until you shut it off.-

>>>> This is news to me, and good information to have.  Most of the folks

>>>> I've worked with who are using NVDA have their systems set up to log

>>>> them straight in to their desktops on system (re)start, so they're

>>>> not using that setting.

>>>> 

>>>> Several don't even have any screen reader turn on initially by

>>>> default, as they will choose one based on what it is they're about

>>>> to work with first if one screen reader works with that software

>>>> better than the other.

>>>> 

>>>> Other than what you document above, which I've never seen because

>>>> that setting was not set, I have not encountered NVDA doing a

>>>> self-restart once explicitly exited from.

>>>> 

>>>> There are a number of possibilities here, but if the situation you

>>>> described is known to not have been set up, I still strongly

>>>> recommend an uninstall and reinstall to see if that clears things

>>>> up, and paying particular attention to the dialogs when installing

>>>> so the way you want NVDA to behave is actually set up correctly.

>>>> 

>

 

 

 

 

 


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Jimmy Vonderlinden
 

you are amazing and Ive learned alot from you and everyone on this list. I hope this isn't the end of you or this great llist. I would hate to see it go!
Hope you all have a happy new year!

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