Date   

locked Re: why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?

Ron Canazzi
 

hahehehahahehe!!

On 4/19/2016 3:10 AM, Isaac wrote:
there against change because they can't see it coming!
----- Original Message -----
From: Christo Vorster
To: nvda@groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2016 1:58 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?


Hi


I use OutLook, Win 10 and office 2010, on my work computer. To me OutLook is perfect, but that is the program I learnt everything concerning email on.


I always say that making choices regarding computer programs is much like buying a car. The only question is “what do you prefer, like, or what works for you”.


Cheers


From: n8mnx@... [mailto:n8mnx@...]
Sent: Tuesday, 19 April 2016 4:14 AM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?


I think that maybe blind people are not against change for the sake of change but it's the fear that their old favorite programs won't work and how accessable will the new os be or how accessable will the new programs be. I to did like windows xp with outlook express and when I was concitering upgrading to windows 7 I was hesitent because I did not know what email program would work and be accessable. I did of course upgrade and used windows live mail and when I began to have issues with it I went to thunderbird and I now have windows 10 and I still use thunderbird. I think that the reason that we all like outlook express isthat it is just a simple email program with nobells and whistles like calendars or features that we don't need or can't use. Outlook express will always be the best email program but we have adapted to other programs but that does not mean that we are happy with them we just adjust. We all don't like change but we can and do adapt but we don't like it. With new versions of windows there may be features that we don't need or want or we can't use but we use what we want to use or what we can use. I know that every one has their screen reader of choice and they think that theirs is the best I use nvdathen there is the issue of winamp it's no longer supported but I still have not been convinced that there is a better program so I will just keep using it. We should upgrade if we need to but we chould not have change fordced upon us this should be our choice. Think of the Omish people they don't have cars they still use horse and buggies that is their choice and so is somones choice if they still use windows xp if they are willing to take the risk thats their choice and not ours.
Brian Sackrider

On 4/18/2016 9:48 PM, Pauline Smith wrote:

Change is hard, but we must adjust. I wasn't fond of Win 7 when I got this computer, but I have adjusted. When a colleague told me how to find and put terms into the search bar by hitting the Start button, much frustration has been saved. Now, I'm comtemplating doing the upgrade to Win 10. I just wanted to make sure I knew what I was getting into before doing it.

Pauline



On 4/18/2016 6:27 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:

Rosemarie Chavarria wrote, in regard to a friend of hers who insisted on staying with WinXP, "I asked him why and his answer was that it was simpler to work with."

And I can't count the times I've heard this, about way more than Windows, and thought, "No, it's not easier to work with - it's what you're used to." Win XP was an OS I loved and Microsoft has the annoying habit of alternating "good" and "bad" versions of Windows. The number of things that require manual intervention from the user in XP is huge compared to later versions, particularly Windows 7 forward. And, when it comes down to it, even in the "ugly" versions of Windows the similarities to their predecessors is at least as strong as the differences, but the differences are where people are required to learn something new.

David Moore's comments regarding those who live to be 100, or near it, really resonate with me. My grandmother died in the 1990s and was in her 90s at the time. When I think about what technology was at her birth and the amount of change she and her age cohort had to go through I am amazed. I don't know if I could be as flexible as they were. While the pace of change has picked up, particularly in the cyber world, the majority of changes I've lived through (I'm just short of 54 years old) feel to me much more like refinements on very familiar themes rather than complete divergences from what came before. That was not true for my grandparents at all, and my parents experienced more revolutionary changes than I have, too. I think my only two revolutions were the introduction of the personal computer and the ascendance of the internet.

Brian




--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


locked Re: This is the moderator speaking: Question Regarding Eloquence for NVDA from Code Factory

Rosemarie Chavarria
 

Hi, Peter,

I'm not saying that people have to drive around in cars that are ten years old. All I'm saying is that eventually a person has to adjust to change even though it's hard. A friend of mine upgraded to windows 7 last year. She got her computer from a place in Texas called Computers for the Blind and it has windows 7 on it. I think she only paid over a hundred dollars for it. If she had to buy it from a computer store, it would have been more expensive and she wouldn't have been able to afford it. I do understand that not everybody can go out and buy the latest and the greatest at a store but there are ways to get a computer through a place like Computers for the Blind.

Rosemarie

-----Original Message-----
From: Peter Beasley [mailto:pjbeasley23@...]
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2016 1:58 AM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] This is the moderator speaking: Question Regarding Eloquence for NVDA from Code Factory

Does this mean then that noone should be driving aroud in cars that are 10 years old.

-----Original Message-----
From: Rosemarie Chavarria
Sent: Monday, April 18, 2016 11:03 PM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] This is the moderator speaking: Question Regarding Eloquence for NVDA from Code Factory

Hi, Brian,

You bring up some very good points here. I was talking to a friend the other day and he said he wishes he could go back to windows XP. I asked him why and his answer was that it was simpler to work with. He's a great example of someone who wants to stay in the stone age so to speak. I tried to suggest that he upgrades to windows 10 but he doesn't want to. Like the old saying goes, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.

Rosemarie

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Vogel [mailto:@britechguy]
Sent: Monday, April 18, 2016 11:23 AM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] This is the moderator speaking: Question Regarding Eloquence for NVDA from Code Factory

Pete wrote, "It's kind of like the whole e-mail thing with people wanting to use outlook express except people keep telling them to use Thunderbird or Microsoft outlook or window live mail or some thing like that."

This isn't a "freedom of choice" issue, it's a simple fact of life that certain programs, Outlook Express being one example, effectively cease to exist when official support ends. No one is guaranteed, nor should they expect, that anything that they're using will be available in perpetuity.

I discourage people from using Outlook Express because the only existing versions available are hacks based on who knows what code base and with what vulnerabilities. Since e-mail clients constantly interact with the internet this is a real concern.

While such a concern is not present regarding voice synthesis, things will come, and go, in that arena as well. There is very likely going to come a point where you, for any you, have to let go of something you're used to because it is not being supported or carried forward. Getting used to this, even though it's painful, is essential in the cyber world unless you want to drive yourself crazy. I've seen a lot of people over the years who have expended far more energy trying to hold on to something than would have been expended to learn the new that's available to them.

Brian


Requesting "The Qube" DownLoad Link

James Robinson
 

Hello David Moore!
 
I would like to have the link to get the Qube.  Thanks for your help.

Sincerely,


James Arthur Robinson, Sr., President
Jardata Corporation


Re:

Gene
 

I am not aware of any settings governing the behavior you are describing.  I tried listening to your example using ESpeak and I did not get the results you describe. 
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
From: HBotma
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2016 7:23 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda]

Hello

It has nothing to do with the Synthesiser.  I have used both SAPI (the
version as default on Windows 10) and ESpeak. Both these synthesisers
give me the same problem.  Isn't there a autocomplete option or
something that I need to uncheck somewhere?

Thanks
Heaven

On 4/19/16, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
> What synthesizer are you using?  This appears to be an issue of how your
> synthesizer works and not NVDA.
>
> Gene
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: HBotma
> Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2016 2:17 AM
> To: nvda@groups.io
> Subject: Re: [nvda]
>
>
> Hello
>
> Talking about pronounciations.  NVDA has a way of reading words as
> months.  For instance, if I read a word that starts with the letters
> JUN with a number preceeding or succeeding it, NVDA reads it as June.
> This is rather annoying and I would actually like to know how to
> change it.
>
> If I can give you an example NVDA reads 2 Mark as 2 March k.
>
> On 4/19/16, Christo Vorster <christo.vorster@...> wrote:
>> Hi
>>
>>
>>
>> My first experience with computers was back in 1986. A friend of mine had
>> an
>> Apple with SoftVert as speech programme. I still am of the opinion that
>> SoftVert was way ahead of it’s time.
>>
>>
>>
>> Then I moved into a new job at the Pioneer School for the Blind in
>> Worcester, South Africa.
>>
>>
>>
>> Just for interest sake. I was appointed as Piano Tuning teacher. What I
>> wil
>> remember for the rest of my life is that I got a desktop computer. A 186
>> (the rest of the letters and numbers I cannot remember), 20 MB hard drive
>> and something like 4 MB of RAM. I can’t even remember the version of DOS
>> I
>> used, probably something like 3.1, or something. At that time I thought
>> that
>> 20 MB of hard drive space was so much that it would last me for the rest
>> of
>> my life. Those were the “good old days”. Now 2 TerraByte is pushing it
>> for
>> space.
>>
>>
>>
>> Yes! We must live with change. Fortunately one can change, but we my
>> still
>> remember the starting days.
>>
>>
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>>
>>
>> From: David Moore [mailto:jesusloves1966@...]
>> Sent: Monday, 18 April 2016 9:32 PM
>> To: nvda@groups.io
>> Subject: Re: [nvda]
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I used the dec talk hard ware synthisizer in the 80s with an IBM
>> computer.
>> Wow, that really brings back memories. Take care.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> From: Arianna Sepulveda <mailto:englishrider91@...>
>>
>> Sent: Monday, April 18, 2016 2:34 PM
>>
>> To: nvda@groups.io
>>
>> Subject: Re: [nvda]
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks for those samples. I've never really been a fan of Decktalk, but I
>> have heard quite a bit of it over the years, and you are right. This
>> version
>> does sound quite different than what's shipped with Window Eyes.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Ari
>>
>>
>>
>> People who are interested may want to hear a recording I made when I was
>> evaluating this version of Dectalk.  it speaks differently enough and has
>> a
>> bit of a different inflection pattern as well and those interested should
>> hear the program when deciding.  You may be able to use it as a demo but
>> this recording may allow you to decide what you think of this version.
>> The
>> original DECTalk couldn't be replicated, I think because the code was
>> lost
>> at some time and this is a reconstruction.  The person selling the
>> program
>> isn't responsible for this.  She is making available what has been
>> supplied.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> The person selling this version is very friendly and it was a pleasure
>> corresponding with her.
>>
>> The link to download the samples is
>>
>> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/25812011/DECtalk%20samples.mp3?dl=1
>>
>> The sample consists of the reading of a small part of Genesis at two
>> different speeds.  Trying the synthesizer as you would use it may be
>> preferable but this may give you a reasonable idea of whether you want to
>> pursue the matter.
>>
>>
>>
>> Gene
>>
>>
>>
>> From: Shaun Everiss <mailto:sm.everiss@...>
>>
>> Sent: Monday, April 18, 2016 6:04 AM
>>
>> To: nvda@groups.io
>>
>> Subject: Re: This is the moderator speaking: [nvda] Question Regarding
>> Eloquence for NVDA from Code Factory
>>
>>
>>
>> Well if people don't want the legal version of eloquence.
>> emailing enablerehab@... and asking for their dectalk synth may be
>> the better option.
>> They don't exactly sell it anymore because there is no interest however
>> they will sell it to you for basically what its worth.
>> Their licence with fonix means you need to pay but there is no fixed
>> price so pay what you want.
>> I put in 20 bucks for the thing but you could pay anything from 1-2
>> dollars up.
>> For those not liking eloquence this may be the better solution.
>> My only complaint is that some of  the voices  are a bit quiet volume
>> wise.
>> However for about a couple mb you get every dectalk voice and language,
>> sadly no singing but even so.
>>
>>
>>
>> On 18/04/2016 10:33 p.m., Joseph Lee wrote:
>>> Hi Chris,
>>> 1. CF version is legal.
>>> 2. Sometimes we do see illegal Eloquence pop up, and this version is the
>>> one we don't allow (legal versions are allowed).
>>> Hope this helps (and please have a long rest).
>>> Cheers,
>>> Joseph
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Christopher-Mark Gilland [mailto:clgilland07@...]
>>> Sent: Monday, April 18, 2016 3:25 AM
>>> To: nvda@groups.io
>>> Subject: Re: This is the moderator speaking: [nvda] Question Regarding
>>> Eloquence for NVDA from Code Factory
>>>
>>> This is the only Eloquence related post I'm going to send to this list,
>>> but it has 100% everything to do with what Joseph has just said.  I'm
>>> neither promoting nor asking about how to get this working with
>>> Eloquence,
>>> so know that up front.
>>>
>>> So, my question is, first, Joseph, you say that Code Factory released an
>>> addon.  I guess my question is, is that addon considered to be illegal?
>>> Second off, I'm a little bit confused.  Are you saying that Eloquence is
>>> allowed, or are you saying it isn't allowed at this time on list.
>>> Further, if not allowed, please then be more specific.  Are you saying
>>> it's not allowed period, or are you saying it's allowed, but only if
>>> talking about the CF version.
>>>
>>> Sorry, your message was just a little bit vague.  I've had an extremely
>>> emotionally rough night, I won't go into it more than to say, I've been
>>> crying my eyes out all night, so therefore as you can imagine, I'm
>>> incredibly tired, so perhaps my mind is a bit oblivious right now to the
>>> meaning of your message.  If so, please forgive me.
>>> ---
>>> Christopher Gilland
>>> JAWS Certified, 2016.
>>> Training Instructor.
>>>
>>> clgilland07@...
>>> Phone: (704) 256-8010.
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Joseph Lee" <joseph.lee22590@...>
>>> To: <nvda@groups.io>
>>> Sent: Monday, April 18, 2016 6:17 AM
>>> Subject: Re: This is the moderator speaking: [nvda] Question Regarding
>>> Eloquence for NVDA from Code Factory
>>>
>>>
>>> Ladies and gentlemen,
>>>
>>> Until a few months ago, discussion of Eloquence wasn't allowed on this
>>> list.
>>> This was relaxed last summer when Code Factory released Eloquence
>>> add-on.
>>> Back then, Nimer and I (Nimer being the actual list owner) said
>>> discussion
>>> of illegal version isn't still permitted.
>>> At this point, it would be advisable to suspend Eloquence discussions
>>> for
>>> a while. We cannot risk giving NVDA a slightly muddy reputation at this
>>> important occasion: NVDA's tenth anniversary and NVDACon. Please don't
>>> forget this: the reputation of a product, particularly a product that
>>> many
>>> of you depends on, depends on what users say about the product and the
>>> discussions surrounding it.
>>> For those new to this list: I'm known for being generous. However, I'm
>>> also known for being a volcano, especially if the integrity of the list
>>> or
>>> the reputation of a product or a community is questioned. I'll not
>>> activate moderation flag for anyone out of respect for everyone and for
>>> newbies to get accustomed to this environment.
>>> For our old friends: Yes, I am indeed serious, more serious now that
>>> we're
>>> about to help NV Access celebrate NVDA's tenth birthday. Not only I'm
>>> speaking on behalf of moderators, but as one of the planners of NVDACon
>>> 2016 (I am indeed the chair of the planning committee), I'd like to
>>> kindly
>>> request that we care about reputation of NVDA, NV Access and this
>>> community.
>>> These days, what gives me more stress isn't the question of who will
>>> succeed me or success of NVDACon, but the reputation and future of this
>>> community for months and years to come. What gives me more joy is to see
>>> you all become folks who can think about what's going on and make
>>> informed
>>> decisions (yes, that's the reason why I've proposed certain proposals in
>>> the past).
>>> In conclusion, I do know I will not be able to sleep tonight, but
>>> believe
>>> I need to say this: NVDA community, specifically this forum, is facing a
>>> crisis: misinformation abounds and passion trumps reason at times. We're
>>> suffering from a disease called "misinformation" - what is illegal being
>>> seen as legal, people not being informed as to what's available to them
>>> when they need it, name calling at times and so forth (as I mentioned in
>>> my blog, I will not accept name calling). Being passionate about
>>> something
>>> is good, but it is better to think about what's going on before
>>> defending
>>> one's arguments. In other words, contrary to what we've said about this
>>> forum to the outside world, we're at times known for doing the opposite.
>>> Lastly, in regards to free material: there is no such thing as free
>>> lunch.
>>> I do need to say this in public: NVDA isn't technically free. For the
>>> benefit of many, NVDA is made available as a free, open-source and
>>> community-driven screen reader. But there are costs associated with this
>>> project. Please stop now and imagine for a second: imagine a group of
>>> developers who have decided to promote equal access to technology at no
>>> additional costs, using their talents to give opportunities for someone
>>> who lives in poverty somewhere.
>>> NVDA is more than a screen reader now: it's a movement, and workers
>>> deserve their wages - support, encouragement, opportunities and so on.
>>> Thank you.
>>> Cheers,
>>> Joseph
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Afrim [mailto:afrim.maja@...]
>>> Sent: Monday, April 18, 2016 2:43 AM
>>> To: nvda@groups.io
>>> Subject: Re: [nvda] Question Regarding Eloquence for NVDA from Code
>>> Factory
>>>
>>> Why do people talk about it? They can, and I don't consider it against
>>> the
>>> rules of the list since the add-on, the alternative if you like to call
>>> it
>>> is available and accessible from within the add-on list of NVDA.
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>>> On Apr 17, 2016, at 9:33 PM, mk360 <mk.seventhson@...> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> I can pay, but the first condition is that the paid versions works as
>>>> fine or better that the alternative, and as reviews as been said, that
>>>> is not the case.
>>>> However, I know that in the list we can't speak about that
>>>> alternative, so I don't understand why the people speak about it.
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> mk.
>>>>
>>>>> El 17-04-2016 a las 8:04, Greg Wocher escribió:
>>>>> Hello,
>>>>> I want to give those of you who use the illegal eloquence add on some
>>>>> food for thought. When you do it and proudly proclaim that you do,
>>>>> you give NVDA and its users a bad reputation. I think I may purchase
>>>>> the Code Factory add on later this afternoon from AT Guys and I will
>>>>> let you all know if it gets rid of the choppiness.
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> Greg Wocher
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 4/17/2016 5:32 AM, Peter Beasley wrote:
>>>>>> My sentiments exactly.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Afrim
>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2016 6:40 AM
>>>>>> To: nvda@groups.io
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nvda] Question Regarding Eloquence for NVDA from Code
>>>>>> Factory
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have been using the old add-on of eloquonce someone made, and I am
>>>>>> not going to pay for a program  that does essentially the same
>>>>>> thing. The add-on I am talking about works so fast and reliably.
>>>>>> cheers.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Apr 17, 2016, at 6:22 AM, Kelly Sapergia <ksapergia@...>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Recently, there was a discussion about alternative voices for NVDA,
>>>>>>> such as Code Factory's add-on with Eloquence and Vocalizer. I
>>>>>>> mentioned that when I tried this particular product, I noticed that
>>>>>>> Eloquence sounded quite choppy compared to other screen readers and
>>>>>>> other synths I have for NVDA on my machine running Windows 7.
>>>>>>> I also never experienced this with Code Factory's SAPI 5
>>>>>>> implementation.
>>>>>>> Anyway, I got thinking about it this evening, and decided to do
>>>>>>> some searching to see if anyone else was experiencing similar
>>>>>>> issues. I found a thread about the add-on in the old NVDA list's
>>>>>>> archive, and saw a message stating that the choppiness would go
>>>>>>> away once the product was paid for. I was just wondering if this is
>>>>>>> indeed the case? If yes, it's not what I'd consider the best way to
>>>>>>> limit a trial version, but I might buy it after all.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yours Sincerely,
>>>>>>> Kelly John Sapergia
>>>>>>> Show Host and Production Director
>>>>>>> The Global Voice Internet Radio
>>>>>>> http://www.theglobalvoice.info
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Personal Website: http://www.ksapergia.net Business Website (KJS
>>>>>>> Productions): http://www.kjsproductions.com Follow me on Twitter
>>>>>>> at: kjsapergia
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> .
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>




decTalk Speech

Stanley Haupt
 

I have access to Dec Talk speech as a software synthesizer for Window-Eyes and System Access. This speech option was included with the purchase and upgrade of these products.

 

 


Re: is foobar2000 accessible with NVDA?

Andre Fisher
 

It is.

On 4/19/16, Mr. Wong Chi Wai, William <@WilliamWai> wrote:
Hi, I previously used Gom audio.

Now I would like to switch to a new music player.

I am not sure if foobar2000 is accessible with NVDA or not.






Re: Brian's comments about WinXP, and I've changed the subject line.

Andre Fisher
 

Have you tried Control+Shift+N to create a new folder?

On 4/19/16, HBotma <ehlbotma@...> wrote:
I prefer the folder layout in Windows 7 and above, because it lists
the documents with their details, so I can look at a document's
details simply by pressing the right arrow instead of having to go
through properties. The only thing I miss in the folders is the
option of using Alt-F W to create a new folder. This was lost by the
Wayside in Windows 8 and above, which was a useful feature. However,
I have found a way to work around this. Another thing is that the
menus differ in the File Explorer compaired to older versions, but
again, there are ways to work around this.

Heaven

On 4/19/16, Robin Frost <robini71@...> wrote:
Hi,
I’ve done just as Gene suggests below for many years and have used System
Restore with no ill effects.
Further I’ve even used Microsoft’s own folders and never interact with
the
“library” feature under windows 10. I find, access and interact with
files
just as I always have in prior incarnations of windows.
If things aren’t behaving or seeming to appear as they always have it
could
be more an issue of how folder views are set than anything else which can
be
completely defined by users specific to a given folder or general across
many.
I hope that helps.
Robin


From: Gene
Sent: Monday, April 18, 2016 10:39 PM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Brian's comments about WinXP, and I've changed the
subject line.

I'm not sure if or to what extent it is more difficult to organize files
in
Windows 7. I haven't used later versions but I would think the same
general
principle would apply. If you find problems regarding the library
feature,
one way to avoid such problems is to organize files outside of this
system.
Why not simply create your own folders? Instead of using the Microsoft
Documents folder, for example, why not create a documents folder on the c
drive. If you wanted, you could create a short cut on the desktop to the
folder, thus accessing the folder in the same way as you may have done
the
Microsoft Folder.

It may be that you would have to be careful when using something like
System
Restore that you wouldn't lose folders or certain files. I don't know
what
the case is now, but in the old days, System Restore didn't monitor My
Documents or any folders in it. So I would not advocate creating your
own
folder structure unless you back things up properly or don't use System
Restore in the first place. But if libraries do cause problems, there is
a
simple way around that which requires you to know nothing about the
library
feature.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Laurie Mehta via Groups.io
Sent: Monday, April 18, 2016 8:39 PM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Brian's comments about WinXP, and I've changed the
subject line.

Hi Brian,
I realize that some people hate change and that's where the discussion
ends
for them but there is at least one aspect of Windows XP that I preferred
to
what came after...
That is the file organization, and how straightforward it was to organize
files in meaningful folders and access files saved in folders keeping a
library neat and manageable.
For me, the file organization and file accessibility in Win7 and later
are
usable but not preferable. JMHO.
(smile)
Thanks for all that you contribute here. It's appreciated.
-LM

--------------------------------------------
On Mon, 4/18/16, Brian Vogel <@britechguy> wrote:

Subject: Re: [nvda] This is the moderator speaking: Question Regarding
Eloquence for NVDA from Code Factory
To: nvda@groups.io
Date: Monday, April 18, 2016, 6:27 PM

Rosemarie Chavarria
wrote, in regard to a friend of hers who insisted on staying
with WinXP, "I asked him
why and his answer was that it was simpler to work
with."And I can't count the times
I've heard this, about way more than Windows, and
thought, "No, it's not easier to work with -
it's what you're used to." Win XP was an OS I
loved and Microsoft has the annoying habit of alternating
"good" and "bad" versions of Windows.
The number of things that require manual intervention from
the user in XP is huge compared to later versions,
particularly Windows 7 forward. And, when it comes down to
it, even in the "ugly" versions of Windows the
similarities to their predecessors is at least as strong as
the differences, but the differences are where people are
required to learn something new.David Moore's comments
regarding those who live to be 100, or near it, really
resonate with me. My grandmother died in the 1990s and was
in her 90s at the time. When I think about what technology
was at her birth and the amount of change she and her age
cohort had to go through I am amazed. I don't know if
I could be as flexible as they were. While the pace of
change has picked up, particularly in the cyber world, the
majority of changes I've lived through (I'm just
short of 54 years old) feel to me much more like refinements
on very familiar themes rather than complete divergences
from what came before. That was not true for my
grandparents at all, and my parents experienced more
revolutionary changes than I have, too. I think my only
two revolutions were the introduction of the personal
computer and the ascendance of the
internet.Brian









is foobar2000 accessible with NVDA?

Mr. Wong Chi Wai <cwwong.pro@...>
 

Hi, I previously used Gom audio.

Now I would like to switch to a new music player.

I am not sure if foobar2000 is accessible with NVDA or not.


Re:

Heaven Botma <ehlbotma@...>
 

Hello

It has nothing to do with the Synthesiser. I have used both SAPI (the
version as default on Windows 10) and ESpeak. Both these synthesisers
give me the same problem. Isn't there a autocomplete option or
something that I need to uncheck somewhere?

Thanks
Heaven

On 4/19/16, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
What synthesizer are you using? This appears to be an issue of how your
synthesizer works and not NVDA.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: HBotma
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2016 2:17 AM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda]


Hello

Talking about pronounciations. NVDA has a way of reading words as
months. For instance, if I read a word that starts with the letters
JUN with a number preceeding or succeeding it, NVDA reads it as June.
This is rather annoying and I would actually like to know how to
change it.

If I can give you an example NVDA reads 2 Mark as 2 March k.

On 4/19/16, Christo Vorster <christo.vorster@...> wrote:
Hi



My first experience with computers was back in 1986. A friend of mine had
an
Apple with SoftVert as speech programme. I still am of the opinion that
SoftVert was way ahead of it’s time.



Then I moved into a new job at the Pioneer School for the Blind in
Worcester, South Africa.



Just for interest sake. I was appointed as Piano Tuning teacher. What I
wil
remember for the rest of my life is that I got a desktop computer. A 186
(the rest of the letters and numbers I cannot remember), 20 MB hard drive
and something like 4 MB of RAM. I can’t even remember the version of DOS
I
used, probably something like 3.1, or something. At that time I thought
that
20 MB of hard drive space was so much that it would last me for the rest
of
my life. Those were the “good old days”. Now 2 TerraByte is pushing it
for
space.



Yes! We must live with change. Fortunately one can change, but we my
still
remember the starting days.



Cheers



From: David Moore [mailto:jesusloves1966@...]
Sent: Monday, 18 April 2016 9:32 PM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda]



Hi,

I used the dec talk hard ware synthisizer in the 80s with an IBM
computer.
Wow, that really brings back memories. Take care.





From: Arianna Sepulveda <mailto:englishrider91@...>

Sent: Monday, April 18, 2016 2:34 PM

To: nvda@groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda]



Thanks for those samples. I've never really been a fan of Decktalk, but I
have heard quite a bit of it over the years, and you are right. This
version
does sound quite different than what's shipped with Window Eyes.





Thanks,

Ari



People who are interested may want to hear a recording I made when I was
evaluating this version of Dectalk. it speaks differently enough and has
a
bit of a different inflection pattern as well and those interested should
hear the program when deciding. You may be able to use it as a demo but
this recording may allow you to decide what you think of this version.
The
original DECTalk couldn't be replicated, I think because the code was
lost
at some time and this is a reconstruction. The person selling the
program
isn't responsible for this. She is making available what has been
supplied.







The person selling this version is very friendly and it was a pleasure
corresponding with her.

The link to download the samples is

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/25812011/DECtalk%20samples.mp3?dl=1

The sample consists of the reading of a small part of Genesis at two
different speeds. Trying the synthesizer as you would use it may be
preferable but this may give you a reasonable idea of whether you want to
pursue the matter.



Gene



From: Shaun Everiss <mailto:@smeveriss>

Sent: Monday, April 18, 2016 6:04 AM

To: nvda@groups.io

Subject: Re: This is the moderator speaking: [nvda] Question Regarding
Eloquence for NVDA from Code Factory



Well if people don't want the legal version of eloquence.
emailing enablerehab@... and asking for their dectalk synth may be
the better option.
They don't exactly sell it anymore because there is no interest however
they will sell it to you for basically what its worth.
Their licence with fonix means you need to pay but there is no fixed
price so pay what you want.
I put in 20 bucks for the thing but you could pay anything from 1-2
dollars up.
For those not liking eloquence this may be the better solution.
My only complaint is that some of the voices are a bit quiet volume
wise.
However for about a couple mb you get every dectalk voice and language,
sadly no singing but even so.



On 18/04/2016 10:33 p.m., Joseph Lee wrote:
Hi Chris,
1. CF version is legal.
2. Sometimes we do see illegal Eloquence pop up, and this version is the
one we don't allow (legal versions are allowed).
Hope this helps (and please have a long rest).
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: Christopher-Mark Gilland [mailto:@AHeart4God316]
Sent: Monday, April 18, 2016 3:25 AM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: This is the moderator speaking: [nvda] Question Regarding
Eloquence for NVDA from Code Factory

This is the only Eloquence related post I'm going to send to this list,
but it has 100% everything to do with what Joseph has just said. I'm
neither promoting nor asking about how to get this working with
Eloquence,
so know that up front.

So, my question is, first, Joseph, you say that Code Factory released an
addon. I guess my question is, is that addon considered to be illegal?
Second off, I'm a little bit confused. Are you saying that Eloquence is
allowed, or are you saying it isn't allowed at this time on list.
Further, if not allowed, please then be more specific. Are you saying
it's not allowed period, or are you saying it's allowed, but only if
talking about the CF version.

Sorry, your message was just a little bit vague. I've had an extremely
emotionally rough night, I won't go into it more than to say, I've been
crying my eyes out all night, so therefore as you can imagine, I'm
incredibly tired, so perhaps my mind is a bit oblivious right now to the
meaning of your message. If so, please forgive me.
---
Christopher Gilland
JAWS Certified, 2016.
Training Instructor.

@AHeart4God316
Phone: (704) 256-8010.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joseph Lee" <@joslee>
To: <nvda@groups.io>
Sent: Monday, April 18, 2016 6:17 AM
Subject: Re: This is the moderator speaking: [nvda] Question Regarding
Eloquence for NVDA from Code Factory


Ladies and gentlemen,

Until a few months ago, discussion of Eloquence wasn't allowed on this
list.
This was relaxed last summer when Code Factory released Eloquence
add-on.
Back then, Nimer and I (Nimer being the actual list owner) said
discussion
of illegal version isn't still permitted.
At this point, it would be advisable to suspend Eloquence discussions
for
a while. We cannot risk giving NVDA a slightly muddy reputation at this
important occasion: NVDA's tenth anniversary and NVDACon. Please don't
forget this: the reputation of a product, particularly a product that
many
of you depends on, depends on what users say about the product and the
discussions surrounding it.
For those new to this list: I'm known for being generous. However, I'm
also known for being a volcano, especially if the integrity of the list
or
the reputation of a product or a community is questioned. I'll not
activate moderation flag for anyone out of respect for everyone and for
newbies to get accustomed to this environment.
For our old friends: Yes, I am indeed serious, more serious now that
we're
about to help NV Access celebrate NVDA's tenth birthday. Not only I'm
speaking on behalf of moderators, but as one of the planners of NVDACon
2016 (I am indeed the chair of the planning committee), I'd like to
kindly
request that we care about reputation of NVDA, NV Access and this
community.
These days, what gives me more stress isn't the question of who will
succeed me or success of NVDACon, but the reputation and future of this
community for months and years to come. What gives me more joy is to see
you all become folks who can think about what's going on and make
informed
decisions (yes, that's the reason why I've proposed certain proposals in
the past).
In conclusion, I do know I will not be able to sleep tonight, but
believe
I need to say this: NVDA community, specifically this forum, is facing a
crisis: misinformation abounds and passion trumps reason at times. We're
suffering from a disease called "misinformation" - what is illegal being
seen as legal, people not being informed as to what's available to them
when they need it, name calling at times and so forth (as I mentioned in
my blog, I will not accept name calling). Being passionate about
something
is good, but it is better to think about what's going on before
defending
one's arguments. In other words, contrary to what we've said about this
forum to the outside world, we're at times known for doing the opposite.
Lastly, in regards to free material: there is no such thing as free
lunch.
I do need to say this in public: NVDA isn't technically free. For the
benefit of many, NVDA is made available as a free, open-source and
community-driven screen reader. But there are costs associated with this
project. Please stop now and imagine for a second: imagine a group of
developers who have decided to promote equal access to technology at no
additional costs, using their talents to give opportunities for someone
who lives in poverty somewhere.
NVDA is more than a screen reader now: it's a movement, and workers
deserve their wages - support, encouragement, opportunities and so on.
Thank you.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: Afrim [mailto:afrim.maja@...]
Sent: Monday, April 18, 2016 2:43 AM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Question Regarding Eloquence for NVDA from Code
Factory

Why do people talk about it? They can, and I don't consider it against
the
rules of the list since the add-on, the alternative if you like to call
it
is available and accessible from within the add-on list of NVDA.

Sent from my iPhone

On Apr 17, 2016, at 9:33 PM, mk360 <mk.seventhson@...> wrote:

Hi,

I can pay, but the first condition is that the paid versions works as
fine or better that the alternative, and as reviews as been said, that
is not the case.
However, I know that in the list we can't speak about that
alternative, so I don't understand why the people speak about it.

Regards,
mk.

El 17-04-2016 a las 8:04, Greg Wocher escribió:
Hello,
I want to give those of you who use the illegal eloquence add on some
food for thought. When you do it and proudly proclaim that you do,
you give NVDA and its users a bad reputation. I think I may purchase
the Code Factory add on later this afternoon from AT Guys and I will
let you all know if it gets rid of the choppiness.

Regards,
Greg Wocher

On 4/17/2016 5:32 AM, Peter Beasley wrote:
My sentiments exactly.

-----Original Message----- From: Afrim
Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2016 6:40 AM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Question Regarding Eloquence for NVDA from Code
Factory

I have been using the old add-on of eloquonce someone made, and I am
not going to pay for a program that does essentially the same
thing. The add-on I am talking about works so fast and reliably.
cheers.

Sent from my iPhone

On Apr 17, 2016, at 6:22 AM, Kelly Sapergia <ksapergia@...>
wrote:

Hi,

Recently, there was a discussion about alternative voices for NVDA,
such as Code Factory's add-on with Eloquence and Vocalizer. I
mentioned that when I tried this particular product, I noticed that
Eloquence sounded quite choppy compared to other screen readers and
other synths I have for NVDA on my machine running Windows 7.
I also never experienced this with Code Factory's SAPI 5
implementation.
Anyway, I got thinking about it this evening, and decided to do
some searching to see if anyone else was experiencing similar
issues. I found a thread about the add-on in the old NVDA list's
archive, and saw a message stating that the choppiness would go
away once the product was paid for. I was just wondering if this is
indeed the case? If yes, it's not what I'd consider the best way to
limit a trial version, but I might buy it after all.

Thanks.

Yours Sincerely,
Kelly John Sapergia
Show Host and Production Director
The Global Voice Internet Radio
http://www.theglobalvoice.info

Personal Website: http://www.ksapergia.net Business Website (KJS
Productions): http://www.kjsproductions.com Follow me on Twitter
at: kjsapergia














.







Re: Brian's comments about WinXP, and I've changed the subject line.

Heaven Botma <ehlbotma@...>
 

I prefer the folder layout in Windows 7 and above, because it lists
the documents with their details, so I can look at a document's
details simply by pressing the right arrow instead of having to go
through properties. The only thing I miss in the folders is the
option of using Alt-F W to create a new folder. This was lost by the
Wayside in Windows 8 and above, which was a useful feature. However,
I have found a way to work around this. Another thing is that the
menus differ in the File Explorer compaired to older versions, but
again, there are ways to work around this.

Heaven

On 4/19/16, Robin Frost <robini71@...> wrote:
Hi,
I’ve done just as Gene suggests below for many years and have used System
Restore with no ill effects.
Further I’ve even used Microsoft’s own folders and never interact with the
“library” feature under windows 10. I find, access and interact with files
just as I always have in prior incarnations of windows.
If things aren’t behaving or seeming to appear as they always have it could
be more an issue of how folder views are set than anything else which can be
completely defined by users specific to a given folder or general across
many.
I hope that helps.
Robin


From: Gene
Sent: Monday, April 18, 2016 10:39 PM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Brian's comments about WinXP, and I've changed the
subject line.

I'm not sure if or to what extent it is more difficult to organize files in
Windows 7. I haven't used later versions but I would think the same general
principle would apply. If you find problems regarding the library feature,
one way to avoid such problems is to organize files outside of this system.
Why not simply create your own folders? Instead of using the Microsoft
Documents folder, for example, why not create a documents folder on the c
drive. If you wanted, you could create a short cut on the desktop to the
folder, thus accessing the folder in the same way as you may have done the
Microsoft Folder.

It may be that you would have to be careful when using something like System
Restore that you wouldn't lose folders or certain files. I don't know what
the case is now, but in the old days, System Restore didn't monitor My
Documents or any folders in it. So I would not advocate creating your own
folder structure unless you back things up properly or don't use System
Restore in the first place. But if libraries do cause problems, there is a
simple way around that which requires you to know nothing about the library
feature.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Laurie Mehta via Groups.io
Sent: Monday, April 18, 2016 8:39 PM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Brian's comments about WinXP, and I've changed the
subject line.

Hi Brian,
I realize that some people hate change and that's where the discussion ends
for them but there is at least one aspect of Windows XP that I preferred to
what came after...
That is the file organization, and how straightforward it was to organize
files in meaningful folders and access files saved in folders keeping a
library neat and manageable.
For me, the file organization and file accessibility in Win7 and later are
usable but not preferable. JMHO.
(smile)
Thanks for all that you contribute here. It's appreciated.
-LM

--------------------------------------------
On Mon, 4/18/16, Brian Vogel <@britechguy> wrote:

Subject: Re: [nvda] This is the moderator speaking: Question Regarding
Eloquence for NVDA from Code Factory
To: nvda@groups.io
Date: Monday, April 18, 2016, 6:27 PM

Rosemarie Chavarria
wrote, in regard to a friend of hers who insisted on staying
with WinXP, "I asked him
why and his answer was that it was simpler to work
with."And I can't count the times
I've heard this, about way more than Windows, and
thought, "No, it's not easier to work with -
it's what you're used to." Win XP was an OS I
loved and Microsoft has the annoying habit of alternating
"good" and "bad" versions of Windows.
The number of things that require manual intervention from
the user in XP is huge compared to later versions,
particularly Windows 7 forward. And, when it comes down to
it, even in the "ugly" versions of Windows the
similarities to their predecessors is at least as strong as
the differences, but the differences are where people are
required to learn something new.David Moore's comments
regarding those who live to be 100, or near it, really
resonate with me. My grandmother died in the 1990s and was
in her 90s at the time. When I think about what technology
was at her birth and the amount of change she and her age
cohort had to go through I am amazed. I don't know if
I could be as flexible as they were. While the pace of
change has picked up, particularly in the cyber world, the
majority of changes I've lived through (I'm just
short of 54 years old) feel to me much more like refinements
on very familiar themes rather than complete divergences
from what came before. That was not true for my
grandparents at all, and my parents experienced more
revolutionary changes than I have, too. I think my only
two revolutions were the introduction of the personal
computer and the ascendance of the
internet.Brian







locked Re: why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?

Gene
 

I'm not sure what you have in mind by someone telling you.  I'll discuss the Internet in the rest of this message. 
 
There are certain structures that you have to use the virtual mouse of your screen-reader to activate and those represent a lack of accessibility.  but those who design sites often know little, if anything, about accessibility.  And even if a site is accessible, if a bnlind person doesn't know how to find things on sites efficiently, they may waste a lot of time doing unnecessary things.  For example, they may tab through item after item on a site when using the find command might allow them to find something very quickly.  Continuing with the Internet as an example, to use the Internet to anywhere near it's potential in terms of efficiency, you have to know how to work with sites you haven't worked with before.  A good deal of my Internet use is doing google searches and looking up information on sites I've never used or seldom used.  Some people micromemorize sites, for example, memorizing that this or that is the second heading level 4 on a site.  You simply can't use the Internet well in terms of working with large numbers of sites if you rely on such micromemorization.  If people want to micromemorize this or that item on a site they use constantly, I'm not telling them that they shouldn't.  but when I see people engage in such micromemorization, it raises the question for me if they know how to work with sites efficiently in general. 
 
When I'm on a site I use often and I want to find the editorial link, I use the find command and search for the link.  If it were a heading and I could get there efficiently by moving by heading, I might do that.  but it isn't.  the find command is the only way I know to find the link efficiently on the site. 
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2016 4:15 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?

Gene, you are right, I understand your point. But it would be helpful if someone tells you what are the changes, so that you can explore a website or programme more efficiently. I don't have an overview of pages etc. so, I go exploring. But this takes some time. And if buttons change behaviour, I mean if you could activate them by using space bar or enter in the past and now they need some other way to be activated, that's a bit a hassle if no one could assist you.

 

Best, Katty

 

Van: Gene [mailto:gsasner@...]
Verzonden: dinsdag 19 april 2016 10:41
Aan: nvda@groups.io
Onderwerp: Re: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?

 

That is true in some cases but in many, that is a real exaggeration and reflects users not understanding how to learn the structure of a program or not understanding a new structure such as ribbons. 

 

Lots of times, if a web site changes, what is desired can easily be found on the site by using the find command.  For example, from time to time, Send Space has changed the way you begin a file download.  There might have been a link that says download, for example.  That link was changed to a button but if someone is used to using the links list, an artificial structure that separates them from the page and doesn't know how to explore the page itself, they may well have considerable difficulty and may need help to find out how to download again.  This does not need to be a crisis.  All that need be done is to go to the top of the page and use your screen-reader's find command to search the page for the word download.  You will immediately see that download is now a button and you can then simply type the letter b when a Send Space download page opens to move to it. 

 If a program changes its structure, such as by adopting ribbons, if you know how to look through ribbons, you can look through them and, if desired, make notes of the key combinations to perform certain functions.  This is similar to what you might do in a menu program.  Far too many blind people are taught to do things by rote and so any change may be a crisis.  In many cases, if taught properly, it can be just an inconvenience.

 

I'm not saying there aren't real problems such as when a program becomes inaccessible or much less so with a new release.  But I am saying that many problems could be reduced to inconveniences if blind people were taught to conceptualize what they are doing and not to take certain actions by rote without  real understanding of how something is structured and how to learn programs by trying different ways of learning about it such as looking through menus or ribbons.

 

Some blind people will find such ways of conceptualizing and learning difficult and some will find them easy and some in between.  But many people are never taught such things so easy, difficult or in between for them, they never get to find out. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2016 2:47 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?

 

For seeing persons, compare the situation of the blind with the following: you are used to go to your local supermarket, and nearly to find everything you need on the shelves by almost walking asleep (you know what to find where). At a certain day, everything is changed: the name of the store, the products inside, the position of the products on the shelves, the shelves themselves, the several departments (bakery, vegetables, …) everything you can think of is changed. Unfortunately you are forced to wander through the store without having an overview of the store, no scanning of the shelves with the eyes, … After a mornth, you are used to the new store and products and their place in the store, everything changes again and you can start all over again. Isn't this a nightmare? Well, that's what the blind are forced to do every time a website, a programme, … changes.

 

In fact, I should post this to the accessible googlegroup.

 

Best, Katty

 

Van: n8mnx@... [mailto:n8mnx@...]
Verzonden: dinsdag 19 april 2016 4:14
Aan: nvda@groups.io
Onderwerp: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?

 

    I think that maybe blind people are not against change for the sake of change but it's the fear that their old favorite programs won't work and how accessable will the new os be or how accessable will the new programs be.  I to did like windows xp with outlook express and when I was concitering upgrading to windows 7 I was hesitent because I did not know what email program would work and be accessable.  I did of course upgrade and used windows live mail and when I began to have issues with it I went to thunderbird and I now have windows 10 and I still use thunderbird.  I think that the reason that we all like outlook express isthat it is just a simple email program with nobells and whistles like calendars or features that we don't need or can't use.  Outlook express will always be the best email program but we have adapted to other programs but that does not mean that we are happy with them we just adjust.  We all don't like change but we can and do adapt but we don't like it.  With new versions of windows there may be features that we don't need or want or we can't use but we use what we want to use or what we can use.  I know that every one has their screen reader of choice and they think that theirs is the best I use nvdathen there is the issue of winamp it's no longer supported but I still have not been convinced that there is a better program so I will just keep using it.  We should upgrade if we need to but we chould not have change fordced upon us this should be our choice.  Think of the Omish people they don't have cars they still use horse and buggies that is their choice and so is somones choice if they still use windows xp if they are willing to take the risk thats their choice and not ours. 
Brian Sackrider  

On 4/18/2016 9:48 PM, Pauline Smith wrote:

Change is hard, but we must adjust.  I wasn't fond of Win 7 when I got this computer, but I have adjusted.  When a colleague told me how to find and put terms into the search bar by hitting the Start button, much frustration has been saved.  Now, I'm comtemplating doing the upgrade to Win 10.  I just wanted to make sure I knew what I was getting into before doing it.

Pauline

On 4/18/2016 6:27 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:

Rosemarie Chavarria wrote, in regard to a friend of hers who insisted on staying with WinXP, "I asked him why and his answer was that it was simpler to work with."

And I can't count the times I've heard this, about way more than Windows, and thought, "No, it's not easier to work with - it's what you're used to."  Win XP was an OS I loved and Microsoft has the annoying habit of alternating "good" and "bad" versions of Windows.  The number of things that require manual intervention from the user in XP is huge compared to later versions, particularly Windows 7 forward.  And, when it comes down to it, even in the "ugly" versions of Windows the similarities to their predecessors is at least as strong as the differences, but the differences are where people are required to learn something new.

David Moore's comments regarding those who live to be 100, or near it, really resonate with me.  My grandmother died in the 1990s and was in her 90s at the time. When I think about what technology was at her birth and the amount of change she and her age cohort had to go through I am amazed.  I don't know if I could be as flexible as they were.  While the pace of change has picked up, particularly in the cyber world, the majority of changes I've lived through (I'm just short of 54 years old) feel to me much more like refinements on very familiar themes rather than complete divergences from what came before.  That was not true for my grandparents at all, and my parents experienced more revolutionary changes than I have, too.  I think my only two revolutions were the introduction of the personal computer and the ascendance of the internet.

Brian

 

 


Re: Brian's comments about WinXP, and I've changed the subject line.

Robin Frost
 

Hi,
I’ve done just as Gene suggests below for many years and have used System Restore with no ill effects.
Further I’ve even used Microsoft’s own folders and never interact with the “library” feature under windows 10. I find, access and interact with files just as I always have in prior incarnations of windows.
If things aren’t behaving or seeming to appear as they always have it could be more an issue of how folder views are set than anything else which can be completely defined by users specific to a given folder or general across many.
I hope that helps.
Robin
 
 

From: Gene
Sent: Monday, April 18, 2016 10:39 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Brian's comments about WinXP, and I've changed the subject line.
 
I'm not sure if or to what extent it is more difficult to organize files in Windows 7.  I haven't used later versions but I would think the same general principle would apply.  If you find problems regarding the library feature, one way to avoid such problems is to organize files outside of this system.  Why not simply create your own folders?  Instead of using the Microsoft Documents folder, for example, why not create a documents folder on the c drive.  If you wanted, you could create a short cut on the desktop to the folder, thus accessing the folder in the same way as you may have done the Microsoft Folder. 
 
It may be that you would have to be careful when using something like System Restore that you wouldn't lose folders or certain files.  I don't know what the case is now, but in the old days, System Restore didn't monitor My Documents or any folders in it.  So I would not advocate creating your own folder structure unless you back things up properly or don't use System Restore in the first place.  But if libraries do cause problems, there is a simple way around that which requires you to know nothing about the library feature.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, April 18, 2016 8:39 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Brian's comments about WinXP, and I've changed the subject line.
 
Hi Brian,
I realize that some people hate change and that's where the discussion ends for them but there is at least one aspect of Windows XP that I preferred to what came after...
That is the file organization, and how straightforward it was to organize files in meaningful folders and access files saved in folders keeping a library neat and  manageable.
For me, the file organization and file accessibility in Win7 and later are usable but not preferable. JMHO.
(smile)
Thanks for all that you contribute here. It's appreciated.
-LM

--------------------------------------------
On Mon, 4/18/16, Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:

Subject: Re: [nvda] This is the moderator speaking: Question Regarding Eloquence for NVDA from Code Factory
To: nvda@groups.io
Date: Monday, April 18, 2016, 6:27 PM
 
Rosemarie Chavarria
wrote, in regard to a friend of hers who insisted on staying
with WinXP, "I asked him
why and his answer was that it was simpler to work
with."And I can't count the times
I've heard this, about way more than Windows, and
thought, "No, it's not easier to work with -
it's what you're used to."  Win XP was an OS I
loved and Microsoft has the annoying habit of alternating
"good" and "bad" versions of Windows.
  The number of things that require manual intervention from
the user in XP is huge compared to later versions,
particularly Windows 7 forward.  And, when it comes down to
it, even in the "ugly" versions of Windows the
similarities to their predecessors is at least as strong as
the differences, but the differences are where people are
required to learn something new.David Moore's comments
regarding those who live to be 100, or near it, really
resonate with me.  My grandmother died in the 1990s and was
in her 90s at the time. When I think about what technology
was at her birth and the amount of change she and her age
cohort had to go through I am amazed.  I don't know if
I could be as flexible as they were.  While the pace of
change has picked up, particularly in the cyber world, the
majority of changes I've lived through (I'm just
short of 54 years old) feel to me much more like refinements
on very familiar themes rather than complete divergences
from what came before.  That was not true for my
grandparents at all, and my parents experienced more
revolutionary changes than I have, too.  I think my only
two revolutions were the introduction of the personal
computer and the ascendance of the
internet.Brian
 
 




locked Re: This is the moderator speaking: Question Regarding Eloquence for NVDA from Code Factory

Christo Vorster
 

Hi Peter

In my opinion, it depends on each person's personal situation. If I don't have the money to buy a new car, my 10, or as it was previously, 1989, vehicle has to do. Same applies to computer software. If you have the money to afford all the latest software, go for it. If I can't afford it, I must bear with it, and nobody need look down on me. Actually, there is a life, with other requirements, and most definitely, other responsibilities, outside the world of computer software.

For me. I'd rather go camping with my family and live with Win XP than buy the latest software and forfit the opportunity to have familytime.

Regards

Christo

-----Original Message-----
From: Peter Beasley [mailto:pjbeasley23@...]
Sent: Tuesday, 19 April 2016 10:58 AM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] This is the moderator speaking: Question Regarding Eloquence for NVDA from Code Factory

Does this mean then that noone should be driving aroud in cars that are 10 years old.

-----Original Message-----
From: Rosemarie Chavarria
Sent: Monday, April 18, 2016 11:03 PM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] This is the moderator speaking: Question Regarding Eloquence for NVDA from Code Factory

Hi, Brian,

You bring up some very good points here. I was talking to a friend the other day and he said he wishes he could go back to windows XP. I asked him why and his answer was that it was simpler to work with. He's a great example of someone who wants to stay in the stone age so to speak. I tried to suggest that he upgrades to windows 10 but he doesn't want to. Like the old saying goes, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.

Rosemarie

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Vogel [mailto:@britechguy]
Sent: Monday, April 18, 2016 11:23 AM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] This is the moderator speaking: Question Regarding Eloquence for NVDA from Code Factory

Pete wrote, "It's kind of like the whole e-mail thing with people wanting to use outlook express except people keep telling them to use Thunderbird or Microsoft outlook or window live mail or some thing like that."

This isn't a "freedom of choice" issue, it's a simple fact of life that certain programs, Outlook Express being one example, effectively cease to exist when official support ends. No one is guaranteed, nor should they expect, that anything that they're using will be available in perpetuity.

I discourage people from using Outlook Express because the only existing versions available are hacks based on who knows what code base and with what vulnerabilities. Since e-mail clients constantly interact with the internet this is a real concern.

While such a concern is not present regarding voice synthesis, things will come, and go, in that arena as well. There is very likely going to come a point where you, for any you, have to let go of something you're used to because it is not being supported or carried forward. Getting used to this, even though it's painful, is essential in the cyber world unless you want to drive yourself crazy. I've seen a lot of people over the years who have expended far more energy trying to hold on to something than would have been expended to learn the new that's available to them.

Brian


locked Re: why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?

Katty Geltmeyer <kattygeltmeyer@...>
 

Gene, you are right, I understand your point. But it would be helpful if someone tells you what are the changes, so that you can explore a website or programme more efficiently. I don't have an overview of pages etc. so, I go exploring. But this takes some time. And if buttons change behaviour, I mean if you could activate them by using space bar or enter in the past and now they need some other way to be activated, that's a bit a hassle if no one could assist you.

 

Best, Katty

 

Van: Gene [mailto:gsasner@...]
Verzonden: dinsdag 19 april 2016 10:41
Aan: nvda@groups.io
Onderwerp: Re: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?

 

That is true in some cases but in many, that is a real exaggeration and reflects users not understanding how to learn the structure of a program or not understanding a new structure such as ribbons. 

 

Lots of times, if a web site changes, what is desired can easily be found on the site by using the find command.  For example, from time to time, Send Space has changed the way you begin a file download.  There might have been a link that says download, for example.  That link was changed to a button but if someone is used to using the links list, an artificial structure that separates them from the page and doesn't know how to explore the page itself, they may well have considerable difficulty and may need help to find out how to download again.  This does not need to be a crisis.  All that need be done is to go to the top of the page and use your screen-reader's find command to search the page for the word download.  You will immediately see that download is now a button and you can then simply type the letter b when a Send Space download page opens to move to it. 

 If a program changes its structure, such as by adopting ribbons, if you know how to look through ribbons, you can look through them and, if desired, make notes of the key combinations to perform certain functions.  This is similar to what you might do in a menu program.  Far too many blind people are taught to do things by rote and so any change may be a crisis.  In many cases, if taught properly, it can be just an inconvenience.

 

I'm not saying there aren't real problems such as when a program becomes inaccessible or much less so with a new release.  But I am saying that many problems could be reduced to inconveniences if blind people were taught to conceptualize what they are doing and not to take certain actions by rote without  real understanding of how something is structured and how to learn programs by trying different ways of learning about it such as looking through menus or ribbons.

 

Some blind people will find such ways of conceptualizing and learning difficult and some will find them easy and some in between.  But many people are never taught such things so easy, difficult or in between for them, they never get to find out. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2016 2:47 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?

 

For seeing persons, compare the situation of the blind with the following: you are used to go to your local supermarket, and nearly to find everything you need on the shelves by almost walking asleep (you know what to find where). At a certain day, everything is changed: the name of the store, the products inside, the position of the products on the shelves, the shelves themselves, the several departments (bakery, vegetables, …) everything you can think of is changed. Unfortunately you are forced to wander through the store without having an overview of the store, no scanning of the shelves with the eyes, … After a mornth, you are used to the new store and products and their place in the store, everything changes again and you can start all over again. Isn't this a nightmare? Well, that's what the blind are forced to do every time a website, a programme, … changes.

 

In fact, I should post this to the accessible googlegroup.

 

Best, Katty

 

Van: n8mnx@... [mailto:n8mnx@...]
Verzonden: dinsdag 19 april 2016 4:14
Aan: nvda@groups.io
Onderwerp: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?

 

    I think that maybe blind people are not against change for the sake of change but it's the fear that their old favorite programs won't work and how accessable will the new os be or how accessable will the new programs be.  I to did like windows xp with outlook express and when I was concitering upgrading to windows 7 I was hesitent because I did not know what email program would work and be accessable.  I did of course upgrade and used windows live mail and when I began to have issues with it I went to thunderbird and I now have windows 10 and I still use thunderbird.  I think that the reason that we all like outlook express isthat it is just a simple email program with nobells and whistles like calendars or features that we don't need or can't use.  Outlook express will always be the best email program but we have adapted to other programs but that does not mean that we are happy with them we just adjust.  We all don't like change but we can and do adapt but we don't like it.  With new versions of windows there may be features that we don't need or want or we can't use but we use what we want to use or what we can use.  I know that every one has their screen reader of choice and they think that theirs is the best I use nvdathen there is the issue of winamp it's no longer supported but I still have not been convinced that there is a better program so I will just keep using it.  We should upgrade if we need to but we chould not have change fordced upon us this should be our choice.  Think of the Omish people they don't have cars they still use horse and buggies that is their choice and so is somones choice if they still use windows xp if they are willing to take the risk thats their choice and not ours. 
Brian Sackrider  

On 4/18/2016 9:48 PM, Pauline Smith wrote:

Change is hard, but we must adjust.  I wasn't fond of Win 7 when I got this computer, but I have adjusted.  When a colleague told me how to find and put terms into the search bar by hitting the Start button, much frustration has been saved.  Now, I'm comtemplating doing the upgrade to Win 10.  I just wanted to make sure I knew what I was getting into before doing it.

Pauline

On 4/18/2016 6:27 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:

Rosemarie Chavarria wrote, in regard to a friend of hers who insisted on staying with WinXP, "I asked him why and his answer was that it was simpler to work with."

And I can't count the times I've heard this, about way more than Windows, and thought, "No, it's not easier to work with - it's what you're used to."  Win XP was an OS I loved and Microsoft has the annoying habit of alternating "good" and "bad" versions of Windows.  The number of things that require manual intervention from the user in XP is huge compared to later versions, particularly Windows 7 forward.  And, when it comes down to it, even in the "ugly" versions of Windows the similarities to their predecessors is at least as strong as the differences, but the differences are where people are required to learn something new.

David Moore's comments regarding those who live to be 100, or near it, really resonate with me.  My grandmother died in the 1990s and was in her 90s at the time. When I think about what technology was at her birth and the amount of change she and her age cohort had to go through I am amazed.  I don't know if I could be as flexible as they were.  While the pace of change has picked up, particularly in the cyber world, the majority of changes I've lived through (I'm just short of 54 years old) feel to me much more like refinements on very familiar themes rather than complete divergences from what came before.  That was not true for my grandparents at all, and my parents experienced more revolutionary changes than I have, too.  I think my only two revolutions were the introduction of the personal computer and the ascendance of the internet.

Brian

 

 


locked Re: This is the moderator speaking: Question Regarding Eloquence for NVDA from Code Factory

Peter Beasley
 

Does this mean then that noone should be driving aroud in cars that are 10 years old.

-----Original Message-----
From: Rosemarie Chavarria
Sent: Monday, April 18, 2016 11:03 PM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] This is the moderator speaking: Question Regarding Eloquence for NVDA from Code Factory

Hi, Brian,

You bring up some very good points here. I was talking to a friend the other day and he said he wishes he could go back to windows XP. I asked him why and his answer was that it was simpler to work with. He's a great example of someone who wants to stay in the stone age so to speak. I tried to suggest that he upgrades to windows 10 but he doesn't want to. Like the old saying goes, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.

Rosemarie

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Vogel [mailto:@britechguy]
Sent: Monday, April 18, 2016 11:23 AM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] This is the moderator speaking: Question Regarding Eloquence for NVDA from Code Factory

Pete wrote, "It's kind of like the whole e-mail thing with people wanting to use outlook express except people keep telling them to use Thunderbird or Microsoft outlook or window live mail or some thing like that."

This isn't a "freedom of choice" issue, it's a simple fact of life that certain programs, Outlook Express being one example, effectively cease to exist when official support ends. No one is guaranteed, nor should they expect, that anything that they're using will be available in perpetuity.

I discourage people from using Outlook Express because the only existing versions available are hacks based on who knows what code base and with what vulnerabilities. Since e-mail clients constantly interact with the internet this is a real concern.

While such a concern is not present regarding voice synthesis, things will come, and go, in that arena as well. There is very likely going to come a point where you, for any you, have to let go of something you're used to because it is not being supported or carried forward. Getting used to this, even though it's painful, is essential in the cyber world unless you want to drive yourself crazy. I've seen a lot of people over the years who have expended far more energy trying to hold on to something than would have been expended to learn the new that's available to them.

Brian


AW: why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?

Eigeldinger Simon <simon.eigeldinger@...>
 

Hi,

+1
Sometimes change is pretty interesting.

Greetings,
Simon



Mit freundlichen Grüßen

Simon Eigeldinger
Sekretariat Nebengebäude 2
Nebengebäude 2, OG1
-------------------------
Stadt Hohenems
Kaiser-Franz-Josef-Straße 4
6845 Hohenems
Österreich
Tel.: +43 (0)5576/7101-1211
Fax: +43 (0)5576/7101-1119
E-Mail: simon.eigeldinger@...
Web: www.hohenems.at

Diese Nachricht und allfällige angehängte Dokumente sind vertraulich und nur für den/die Adressaten bestimmt.
-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Angela Delicata via Groups.io [mailto:angeladelicata=libero.it@groups.io]
Gesendet: Dienstag, 19. April 2016 10:20
An: nvda@groups.io
Betreff: Re: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?

Always the same old discussions you can find on a mailing list for blind.
I will say my opinion: I am not against change, I am just lazy to learn
new stuff and do it only when it is really necessary.
I am not perfect, but only God is.
I think one can use whatever program he/she likes and everyone's choice
must be respected.

I wish I would never read such things anymore, but blind are hard to change.

Ciao
Angela from Italy

Il 19/04/2016 ha scritto:


Van: n8mnx@... [mailto:n8mnx@...]
Verzonden: dinsdag 19 april 2016 4:14
Aan: nvda@groups.io
Onderwerp: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against
change?



I think that maybe blind people are not against change for the sake
of change but it's the fear that their old favorite programs won't work
and how accessable will the new os be or how accessable will the new
programs be. I to did like windows xp with outlook express and when I
was concitering upgrading to windows 7 I was hesitent because I did not
know what email program would work and be accessable. I did of course
upgrade and used windows live mail and when I began to have issues with
it I went to thunderbird and I now have windows 10 and I still use
thunderbird. I think that the reason that we all like outlook express
isthat it is just a simple email program with nobells and whistles like
calendars or features that we don't need or can't use. Outlook express
will always be the best email program but we have adapted to other
programs but that does not mean that we are happy with them we just
adjust. We all don't like change but we can and do adapt but we don't
like it. With new versions of windows there may be features that we
don't need or want or we can't use but we use what we want to use or
what we can use. I know that every one has their screen reader of
choice and they think that theirs is the best I use nvdathen there is
the issue of winamp it's no longer supported but I still have not been
convinced that there is a better program so I will just keep using it.
We should upgrade if we need to but we chould not have change fordced
upon us this should be our choice. Think of the Omish people they don't
have cars they still use horse and buggies that is their choice and so
is somones choice if they still use windows xp if they are willing to
take the risk thats their choice and not ours.
Brian Sackrider

On 4/18/2016 9:48 PM, Pauline Smith wrote:

Change is hard, but we must adjust. I wasn't fond of Win 7 when I got
this computer, but I have adjusted. When a colleague told me how to
find and put terms into the search bar by hitting the Start button, much
frustration has been saved. Now, I'm comtemplating doing the upgrade to
Win 10. I just wanted to make sure I knew what I was getting into
before doing it.

Pauline



On 4/18/2016 6:27 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:

Rosemarie Chavarria wrote, in regard to a friend of hers who insisted on
staying with WinXP, "I asked him why and his answer was that it was
simpler to work with."

And I can't count the times I've heard this, about way more than
Windows, and thought, "No, it's not easier to work with - it's what
you're used to." Win XP was an OS I loved and Microsoft has the annoying
habit of alternating "good" and "bad" versions of Windows. The number
of things that require manual intervention from the user in XP is huge
compared to later versions, particularly Windows 7 forward. And, when
it comes down to it, even in the "ugly" versions of Windows the
similarities to their predecessors is at least as strong as the
differences, but the differences are where people are required to learn
something new.

David Moore's comments regarding those who live to be 100, or near it,
really resonate with me. My grandmother died in the 1990s and was in
her 90s at the time. When I think about what technology was at her birth
and the amount of change she and her age cohort had to go through I am
amazed. I don't know if I could be as flexible as they were. While the
pace of change has picked up, particularly in the cyber world, the
majority of changes I've lived through (I'm just short of 54 years old)
feel to me much more like refinements on very familiar themes rather
than complete divergences from what came before. That was not true for
my grandparents at all, and my parents experienced more revolutionary
changes than I have, too. I think my only two revolutions were the
introduction of the personal computer and the ascendance of the internet.

Brian










---
Questa e-mail è stata controllata per individuare virus con Avast antivirus.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus


locked Re: why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?

Christo Vorster
 

Hi Angela

I agree with you, but such are people universally. There will always be people who will make comments on what others say.

I think that deep down, most of us who are resistant to change are somewhat lazy to learn new things, but so be it. It doesn't mean that it make you a lazy person. Often the term "lazy" actually means "just not wanting".

The saying goes: "a change is as good as a holiday", so lets enjoy our changes, when we make them.

My opinion: if you want to change, do it. If you don't want to, do it. The choice always is yours. I just feel that those wanting to change just for the sake of change must take the consequences if they make a wrong choice and in the same way, we who don't want to change, leave us alone.

Sometimes you find people, especially concerning computer software, who look down on those not using the same programs as they do. My approach towards them is just to leave them be.

To be honest, I experienced it with many JAWS-users, and believe me, I used JAWS until I was forced to upgrade to Win 10, because that is what we teach at the college where I am employed. Please don't get me wrong, I don't regret changing to NVDA, I am very happy and believe that NVDA is a much better package, but the people I refer to, am of the opinion that I am stupid, and then many of them are using illegitimate copies.

Have a nice day

Christo

-----Original Message-----
From: Angela Delicata via Groups.io [mailto:angeladelicata=libero.it@groups.io]
Sent: Tuesday, 19 April 2016 10:20 AM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?

Always the same old discussions you can find on a mailing list for blind.
I will say my opinion: I am not against change, I am just lazy to learn new stuff and do it only when it is really necessary.
I am not perfect, but only God is.
I think one can use whatever program he/she likes and everyone's choice must be respected.

I wish I would never read such things anymore, but blind are hard to change.

Ciao
Angela from Italy

Il 19/04/2016 ha scritto:


Van: n8mnx@... [mailto:n8mnx@...]
Verzonden: dinsdag 19 april 2016 4:14
Aan: nvda@groups.io
Onderwerp: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so
against change?



I think that maybe blind people are not against change for the sake
of change but it's the fear that their old favorite programs won't
work and how accessable will the new os be or how accessable will the
new programs be. I to did like windows xp with outlook express and
when I was concitering upgrading to windows 7 I was hesitent because I
did not know what email program would work and be accessable. I did
of course upgrade and used windows live mail and when I began to have
issues with it I went to thunderbird and I now have windows 10 and I
still use thunderbird. I think that the reason that we all like
outlook express isthat it is just a simple email program with nobells
and whistles like calendars or features that we don't need or can't
use. Outlook express will always be the best email program but we
have adapted to other programs but that does not mean that we are
happy with them we just adjust. We all don't like change but we can
and do adapt but we don't like it. With new versions of windows there
may be features that we don't need or want or we can't use but we use
what we want to use or what we can use. I know that every one has
their screen reader of choice and they think that theirs is the best I
use nvdathen there is the issue of winamp it's no longer supported but
I still have not been convinced that there is a better program so I will just keep using it.
We should upgrade if we need to but we chould not have change fordced
upon us this should be our choice. Think of the Omish people they
don't have cars they still use horse and buggies that is their choice
and so is somones choice if they still use windows xp if they are
willing to take the risk thats their choice and not ours.
Brian Sackrider

On 4/18/2016 9:48 PM, Pauline Smith wrote:

Change is hard, but we must adjust. I wasn't fond of Win 7 when I got
this computer, but I have adjusted. When a colleague told me how to
find and put terms into the search bar by hitting the Start button,
much frustration has been saved. Now, I'm comtemplating doing the
upgrade to Win 10. I just wanted to make sure I knew what I was
getting into before doing it.

Pauline



On 4/18/2016 6:27 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:

Rosemarie Chavarria wrote, in regard to a friend of hers who insisted
on staying with WinXP, "I asked him why and his answer was that it was
simpler to work with."

And I can't count the times I've heard this, about way more than
Windows, and thought, "No, it's not easier to work with - it's what
you're used to." Win XP was an OS I loved and Microsoft has the
annoying habit of alternating "good" and "bad" versions of Windows.
The number of things that require manual intervention from the user in
XP is huge compared to later versions, particularly Windows 7 forward.
And, when it comes down to it, even in the "ugly" versions of Windows
the similarities to their predecessors is at least as strong as the
differences, but the differences are where people are required to
learn something new.

David Moore's comments regarding those who live to be 100, or near it,
really resonate with me. My grandmother died in the 1990s and was in
her 90s at the time. When I think about what technology was at her
birth and the amount of change she and her age cohort had to go
through I am amazed. I don't know if I could be as flexible as they
were. While the pace of change has picked up, particularly in the
cyber world, the majority of changes I've lived through (I'm just
short of 54 years old) feel to me much more like refinements on very
familiar themes rather than complete divergences from what came
before. That was not true for my grandparents at all, and my parents
experienced more revolutionary changes than I have, too. I think my
only two revolutions were the introduction of the personal computer and the ascendance of the internet.

Brian










---
Questa e-mail è stata controllata per individuare virus con Avast antivirus.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus


locked Re: why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?

Gene
 

That is true in some cases but in many, that is a real exaggeration and reflects users not understanding how to learn the structure of a program or not understanding a new structure such as ribbons. 
 
Lots of times, if a web site changes, what is desired can easily be found on the site by using the find command.  For example, from time to time, Send Space has changed the way you begin a file download.  There might have been a link that says download, for example.  That link was changed to a button but if someone is used to using the links list, an artificial structure that separates them from the page and doesn't know how to explore the page itself, they may well have considerable difficulty and may need help to find out how to download again.  This does not need to be a crisis.  All that need be done is to go to the top of the page and use your screen-reader's find command to search the page for the word download.  You will immediately see that download is now a button and you can then simply type the letter b when a Send Space download page opens to move to it. 
 If a program changes its structure, such as by adopting ribbons, if you know how to look through ribbons, you can look through them and, if desired, make notes of the key combinations to perform certain functions.  This is similar to what you might do in a menu program.  Far too many blind people are taught to do things by rote and so any change may be a crisis.  In many cases, if taught properly, it can be just an inconvenience.
 
I'm not saying there aren't real problems such as when a program becomes inaccessible or much less so with a new release.  But I am saying that many problems could be reduced to inconveniences if blind people were taught to conceptualize what they are doing and not to take certain actions by rote without  real understanding of how something is structured and how to learn programs by trying different ways of learning about it such as looking through menus or ribbons.
 
Some blind people will find such ways of conceptualizing and learning difficult and some will find them easy and some in between.  But many people are never taught such things so easy, difficult or in between for them, they never get to find out. 
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2016 2:47 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?

For seeing persons, compare the situation of the blind with the following: you are used to go to your local supermarket, and nearly to find everything you need on the shelves by almost walking asleep (you know what to find where). At a certain day, everything is changed: the name of the store, the products inside, the position of the products on the shelves, the shelves themselves, the several departments (bakery, vegetables, …) everything you can think of is changed. Unfortunately you are forced to wander through the store without having an overview of the store, no scanning of the shelves with the eyes, … After a mornth, you are used to the new store and products and their place in the store, everything changes again and you can start all over again. Isn't this a nightmare? Well, that's what the blind are forced to do every time a website, a programme, … changes.

 

In fact, I should post this to the accessible googlegroup.

 

Best, Katty

 

Van: n8mnx@... [mailto:n8mnx@...]
Verzonden: dinsdag 19 april 2016 4:14
Aan: nvda@groups.io
Onderwerp: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?

 

    I think that maybe blind people are not against change for the sake of change but it's the fear that their old favorite programs won't work and how accessable will the new os be or how accessable will the new programs be.  I to did like windows xp with outlook express and when I was concitering upgrading to windows 7 I was hesitent because I did not know what email program would work and be accessable.  I did of course upgrade and used windows live mail and when I began to have issues with it I went to thunderbird and I now have windows 10 and I still use thunderbird.  I think that the reason that we all like outlook express isthat it is just a simple email program with nobells and whistles like calendars or features that we don't need or can't use.  Outlook express will always be the best email program but we have adapted to other programs but that does not mean that we are happy with them we just adjust.  We all don't like change but we can and do adapt but we don't like it.  With new versions of windows there may be features that we don't need or want or we can't use but we use what we want to use or what we can use.  I know that every one has their screen reader of choice and they think that theirs is the best I use nvdathen there is the issue of winamp it's no longer supported but I still have not been convinced that there is a better program so I will just keep using it.  We should upgrade if we need to but we chould not have change fordced upon us this should be our choice.  Think of the Omish people they don't have cars they still use horse and buggies that is their choice and so is somones choice if they still use windows xp if they are willing to take the risk thats their choice and not ours. 
Brian Sackrider  

On 4/18/2016 9:48 PM, Pauline Smith wrote:

Change is hard, but we must adjust.  I wasn't fond of Win 7 when I got this computer, but I have adjusted.  When a colleague told me how to find and put terms into the search bar by hitting the Start button, much frustration has been saved.  Now, I'm comtemplating doing the upgrade to Win 10.  I just wanted to make sure I knew what I was getting into before doing it.

Pauline

On 4/18/2016 6:27 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:

Rosemarie Chavarria wrote, in regard to a friend of hers who insisted on staying with WinXP, "I asked him why and his answer was that it was simpler to work with."

And I can't count the times I've heard this, about way more than Windows, and thought, "No, it's not easier to work with - it's what you're used to."  Win XP was an OS I loved and Microsoft has the annoying habit of alternating "good" and "bad" versions of Windows.  The number of things that require manual intervention from the user in XP is huge compared to later versions, particularly Windows 7 forward.  And, when it comes down to it, even in the "ugly" versions of Windows the similarities to their predecessors is at least as strong as the differences, but the differences are where people are required to learn something new.

David Moore's comments regarding those who live to be 100, or near it, really resonate with me.  My grandmother died in the 1990s and was in her 90s at the time. When I think about what technology was at her birth and the amount of change she and her age cohort had to go through I am amazed.  I don't know if I could be as flexible as they were.  While the pace of change has picked up, particularly in the cyber world, the majority of changes I've lived through (I'm just short of 54 years old) feel to me much more like refinements on very familiar themes rather than complete divergences from what came before.  That was not true for my grandparents at all, and my parents experienced more revolutionary changes than I have, too.  I think my only two revolutions were the introduction of the personal computer and the ascendance of the internet.

Brian

 

 


locked Re: why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?

Angela Delicata
 

Always the same old discussions you can find on a mailing list for blind.
I will say my opinion: I am not against change, I am just lazy to learn
new stuff and do it only when it is really necessary.
I am not perfect, but only God is.
I think one can use whatever program he/she likes and everyone's choice
must be respected.

I wish I would never read such things anymore, but blind are hard to change.

Ciao
Angela from Italy

Il 19/04/2016 ha scritto:


Van: n8mnx@... [mailto:n8mnx@...]
Verzonden: dinsdag 19 april 2016 4:14
Aan: nvda@groups.io
Onderwerp: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against
change?



I think that maybe blind people are not against change for the sake
of change but it's the fear that their old favorite programs won't work
and how accessable will the new os be or how accessable will the new
programs be. I to did like windows xp with outlook express and when I
was concitering upgrading to windows 7 I was hesitent because I did not
know what email program would work and be accessable. I did of course
upgrade and used windows live mail and when I began to have issues with
it I went to thunderbird and I now have windows 10 and I still use
thunderbird. I think that the reason that we all like outlook express
isthat it is just a simple email program with nobells and whistles like
calendars or features that we don't need or can't use. Outlook express
will always be the best email program but we have adapted to other
programs but that does not mean that we are happy with them we just
adjust. We all don't like change but we can and do adapt but we don't
like it. With new versions of windows there may be features that we
don't need or want or we can't use but we use what we want to use or
what we can use. I know that every one has their screen reader of
choice and they think that theirs is the best I use nvdathen there is
the issue of winamp it's no longer supported but I still have not been
convinced that there is a better program so I will just keep using it.
We should upgrade if we need to but we chould not have change fordced
upon us this should be our choice. Think of the Omish people they don't
have cars they still use horse and buggies that is their choice and so
is somones choice if they still use windows xp if they are willing to
take the risk thats their choice and not ours.
Brian Sackrider

On 4/18/2016 9:48 PM, Pauline Smith wrote:

Change is hard, but we must adjust. I wasn't fond of Win 7 when I got
this computer, but I have adjusted. When a colleague told me how to
find and put terms into the search bar by hitting the Start button, much
frustration has been saved. Now, I'm comtemplating doing the upgrade to
Win 10. I just wanted to make sure I knew what I was getting into
before doing it.

Pauline



On 4/18/2016 6:27 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:

Rosemarie Chavarria wrote, in regard to a friend of hers who insisted on
staying with WinXP, "I asked him why and his answer was that it was
simpler to work with."

And I can't count the times I've heard this, about way more than
Windows, and thought, "No, it's not easier to work with - it's what
you're used to." Win XP was an OS I loved and Microsoft has the annoying
habit of alternating "good" and "bad" versions of Windows. The number
of things that require manual intervention from the user in XP is huge
compared to later versions, particularly Windows 7 forward. And, when
it comes down to it, even in the "ugly" versions of Windows the
similarities to their predecessors is at least as strong as the
differences, but the differences are where people are required to learn
something new.

David Moore's comments regarding those who live to be 100, or near it,
really resonate with me. My grandmother died in the 1990s and was in
her 90s at the time. When I think about what technology was at her birth
and the amount of change she and her age cohort had to go through I am
amazed. I don't know if I could be as flexible as they were. While the
pace of change has picked up, particularly in the cyber world, the
majority of changes I've lived through (I'm just short of 54 years old)
feel to me much more like refinements on very familiar themes rather
than complete divergences from what came before. That was not true for
my grandparents at all, and my parents experienced more revolutionary
changes than I have, too. I think my only two revolutions were the
introduction of the personal computer and the ascendance of the internet.

Brian









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Re:

Gene
 

What synthesizer are you using?  This appears to be an issue of how your synthesizer works and not NVDA.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
From: HBotma
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2016 2:17 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda]

Hello

Talking about pronounciations.  NVDA has a way of reading words as
months.  For instance, if I read a word that starts with the letters
JUN with a number preceeding or succeeding it, NVDA reads it as June.
This is rather annoying and I would actually like to know how to
change it.

If I can give you an example NVDA reads 2 Mark as 2 March k.

On 4/19/16, Christo Vorster <christo.vorster@...> wrote:
> Hi
>
>
>
> My first experience with computers was back in 1986. A friend of mine had an
> Apple with SoftVert as speech programme. I still am of the opinion that
> SoftVert was way ahead of it’s time.
>
>
>
> Then I moved into a new job at the Pioneer School for the Blind in
> Worcester, South Africa.
>
>
>
> Just for interest sake. I was appointed as Piano Tuning teacher. What I wil
> remember for the rest of my life is that I got a desktop computer. A 186
> (the rest of the letters and numbers I cannot remember), 20 MB hard drive
> and something like 4 MB of RAM. I can’t even remember the version of DOS I
> used, probably something like 3.1, or something. At that time I thought that
> 20 MB of hard drive space was so much that it would last me for the rest of
> my life. Those were the “good old days”. Now 2 TerraByte is pushing it for
> space.
>
>
>
> Yes! We must live with change. Fortunately one can change, but we my still
> remember the starting days.
>
>
>
> Cheers
>
>
>
> From: David Moore [mailto:jesusloves1966@...]
> Sent: Monday, 18 April 2016 9:32 PM
> To: nvda@groups.io
> Subject: Re: [nvda]
>
>
>
> Hi,
>
> I used the dec talk hard ware synthisizer in the 80s with an IBM computer.
> Wow, that really brings back memories. Take care.
>
>
>
>
>
> From: Arianna Sepulveda <mailto:englishrider91@...>
>
> Sent: Monday, April 18, 2016 2:34 PM
>
> To: nvda@groups.io
>
> Subject: Re: [nvda]
>
>
>
> Thanks for those samples. I've never really been a fan of Decktalk, but I
> have heard quite a bit of it over the years, and you are right. This version
> does sound quite different than what's shipped with Window Eyes.
>
>
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ari
>
>
>
> People who are interested may want to hear a recording I made when I was
> evaluating this version of Dectalk.  it speaks differently enough and has a
> bit of a different inflection pattern as well and those interested should
> hear the program when deciding.  You may be able to use it as a demo but
> this recording may allow you to decide what you think of this version.  The
> original DECTalk couldn't be replicated, I think because the code was lost
> at some time and this is a reconstruction.  The person selling the program
> isn't responsible for this.  She is making available what has been supplied.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> The person selling this version is very friendly and it was a pleasure
> corresponding with her.
>
> The link to download the samples is
>
> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/25812011/DECtalk%20samples.mp3?dl=1
>
> The sample consists of the reading of a small part of Genesis at two
> different speeds.  Trying the synthesizer as you would use it may be
> preferable but this may give you a reasonable idea of whether you want to
> pursue the matter.
>
>
>
> Gene
>
>
>
> From: Shaun Everiss <mailto:sm.everiss@...>
>
> Sent: Monday, April 18, 2016 6:04 AM
>
> To: nvda@groups.io
>
> Subject: Re: This is the moderator speaking: [nvda] Question Regarding
> Eloquence for NVDA from Code Factory
>
>
>
> Well if people don't want the legal version of eloquence.
> emailing enablerehab@... and asking for their dectalk synth may be
> the better option.
> They don't exactly sell it anymore because there is no interest however
> they will sell it to you for basically what its worth.
> Their licence with fonix means you need to pay but there is no fixed
> price so pay what you want.
> I put in 20 bucks for the thing but you could pay anything from 1-2
> dollars up.
> For those not liking eloquence this may be the better solution.
> My only complaint is that some of  the voices  are a bit quiet volume wise.
> However for about a couple mb you get every dectalk voice and language,
> sadly no singing but even so.
>
>
>
> On 18/04/2016 10:33 p.m., Joseph Lee wrote:
>> Hi Chris,
>> 1. CF version is legal.
>> 2. Sometimes we do see illegal Eloquence pop up, and this version is the
>> one we don't allow (legal versions are allowed).
>> Hope this helps (and please have a long rest).
>> Cheers,
>> Joseph
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Christopher-Mark Gilland [mailto:clgilland07@...]
>> Sent: Monday, April 18, 2016 3:25 AM
>> To: nvda@groups.io
>> Subject: Re: This is the moderator speaking: [nvda] Question Regarding
>> Eloquence for NVDA from Code Factory
>>
>> This is the only Eloquence related post I'm going to send to this list,
>> but it has 100% everything to do with what Joseph has just said.  I'm
>> neither promoting nor asking about how to get this working with Eloquence,
>> so know that up front.
>>
>> So, my question is, first, Joseph, you say that Code Factory released an
>> addon.  I guess my question is, is that addon considered to be illegal?
>> Second off, I'm a little bit confused.  Are you saying that Eloquence is
>> allowed, or are you saying it isn't allowed at this time on list.
>> Further, if not allowed, please then be more specific.  Are you saying
>> it's not allowed period, or are you saying it's allowed, but only if
>> talking about the CF version.
>>
>> Sorry, your message was just a little bit vague.  I've had an extremely
>> emotionally rough night, I won't go into it more than to say, I've been
>> crying my eyes out all night, so therefore as you can imagine, I'm
>> incredibly tired, so perhaps my mind is a bit oblivious right now to the
>> meaning of your message.  If so, please forgive me.
>> ---
>> Christopher Gilland
>> JAWS Certified, 2016.
>> Training Instructor.
>>
>> clgilland07@...
>> Phone: (704) 256-8010.
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Joseph Lee" <joseph.lee22590@...>
>> To: <nvda@groups.io>
>> Sent: Monday, April 18, 2016 6:17 AM
>> Subject: Re: This is the moderator speaking: [nvda] Question Regarding
>> Eloquence for NVDA from Code Factory
>>
>>
>> Ladies and gentlemen,
>>
>> Until a few months ago, discussion of Eloquence wasn't allowed on this
>> list.
>> This was relaxed last summer when Code Factory released Eloquence add-on.
>> Back then, Nimer and I (Nimer being the actual list owner) said discussion
>> of illegal version isn't still permitted.
>> At this point, it would be advisable to suspend Eloquence discussions for
>> a while. We cannot risk giving NVDA a slightly muddy reputation at this
>> important occasion: NVDA's tenth anniversary and NVDACon. Please don't
>> forget this: the reputation of a product, particularly a product that many
>> of you depends on, depends on what users say about the product and the
>> discussions surrounding it.
>> For those new to this list: I'm known for being generous. However, I'm
>> also known for being a volcano, especially if the integrity of the list or
>> the reputation of a product or a community is questioned. I'll not
>> activate moderation flag for anyone out of respect for everyone and for
>> newbies to get accustomed to this environment.
>> For our old friends: Yes, I am indeed serious, more serious now that we're
>> about to help NV Access celebrate NVDA's tenth birthday. Not only I'm
>> speaking on behalf of moderators, but as one of the planners of NVDACon
>> 2016 (I am indeed the chair of the planning committee), I'd like to kindly
>> request that we care about reputation of NVDA, NV Access and this
>> community.
>> These days, what gives me more stress isn't the question of who will
>> succeed me or success of NVDACon, but the reputation and future of this
>> community for months and years to come. What gives me more joy is to see
>> you all become folks who can think about what's going on and make informed
>> decisions (yes, that's the reason why I've proposed certain proposals in
>> the past).
>> In conclusion, I do know I will not be able to sleep tonight, but believe
>> I need to say this: NVDA community, specifically this forum, is facing a
>> crisis: misinformation abounds and passion trumps reason at times. We're
>> suffering from a disease called "misinformation" - what is illegal being
>> seen as legal, people not being informed as to what's available to them
>> when they need it, name calling at times and so forth (as I mentioned in
>> my blog, I will not accept name calling). Being passionate about something
>> is good, but it is better to think about what's going on before defending
>> one's arguments. In other words, contrary to what we've said about this
>> forum to the outside world, we're at times known for doing the opposite.
>> Lastly, in regards to free material: there is no such thing as free lunch.
>> I do need to say this in public: NVDA isn't technically free. For the
>> benefit of many, NVDA is made available as a free, open-source and
>> community-driven screen reader. But there are costs associated with this
>> project. Please stop now and imagine for a second: imagine a group of
>> developers who have decided to promote equal access to technology at no
>> additional costs, using their talents to give opportunities for someone
>> who lives in poverty somewhere.
>> NVDA is more than a screen reader now: it's a movement, and workers
>> deserve their wages - support, encouragement, opportunities and so on.
>> Thank you.
>> Cheers,
>> Joseph
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Afrim [mailto:afrim.maja@...]
>> Sent: Monday, April 18, 2016 2:43 AM
>> To: nvda@groups.io
>> Subject: Re: [nvda] Question Regarding Eloquence for NVDA from Code
>> Factory
>>
>> Why do people talk about it? They can, and I don't consider it against the
>> rules of the list since the add-on, the alternative if you like to call it
>> is available and accessible from within the add-on list of NVDA.
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>> On Apr 17, 2016, at 9:33 PM, mk360 <mk.seventhson@...> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> I can pay, but the first condition is that the paid versions works as
>>> fine or better that the alternative, and as reviews as been said, that
>>> is not the case.
>>> However, I know that in the list we can't speak about that
>>> alternative, so I don't understand why the people speak about it.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> mk.
>>>
>>>> El 17-04-2016 a las 8:04, Greg Wocher escribió:
>>>> Hello,
>>>> I want to give those of you who use the illegal eloquence add on some
>>>> food for thought. When you do it and proudly proclaim that you do,
>>>> you give NVDA and its users a bad reputation. I think I may purchase
>>>> the Code Factory add on later this afternoon from AT Guys and I will
>>>> let you all know if it gets rid of the choppiness.
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Greg Wocher
>>>>
>>>>> On 4/17/2016 5:32 AM, Peter Beasley wrote:
>>>>> My sentiments exactly.
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Afrim
>>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2016 6:40 AM
>>>>> To: nvda@groups.io
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nvda] Question Regarding Eloquence for NVDA from Code
>>>>> Factory
>>>>>
>>>>> I have been using the old add-on of eloquonce someone made, and I am
>>>>> not going to pay for a program  that does essentially the same
>>>>> thing. The add-on I am talking about works so fast and reliably.
>>>>> cheers.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Apr 17, 2016, at 6:22 AM, Kelly Sapergia <ksapergia@...>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Recently, there was a discussion about alternative voices for NVDA,
>>>>>> such as Code Factory's add-on with Eloquence and Vocalizer. I
>>>>>> mentioned that when I tried this particular product, I noticed that
>>>>>> Eloquence sounded quite choppy compared to other screen readers and
>>>>>> other synths I have for NVDA on my machine running Windows 7.
>>>>>> I also never experienced this with Code Factory's SAPI 5
>>>>>> implementation.
>>>>>> Anyway, I got thinking about it this evening, and decided to do
>>>>>> some searching to see if anyone else was experiencing similar
>>>>>> issues. I found a thread about the add-on in the old NVDA list's
>>>>>> archive, and saw a message stating that the choppiness would go
>>>>>> away once the product was paid for. I was just wondering if this is
>>>>>> indeed the case? If yes, it's not what I'd consider the best way to
>>>>>> limit a trial version, but I might buy it after all.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yours Sincerely,
>>>>>> Kelly John Sapergia
>>>>>> Show Host and Production Director
>>>>>> The Global Voice Internet Radio
>>>>>> http://www.theglobalvoice.info
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Personal Website: http://www.ksapergia.net Business Website (KJS
>>>>>> Productions): http://www.kjsproductions.com Follow me on Twitter
>>>>>> at: kjsapergia
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> .
>>
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