Date   

Re: Brian's comments about WinXP, and I've changed the subject line.

Heaven Botma <ehlbotma@...>
 

No. Thank you. I'll try that.

On 4/20/16, David Moore <jesusloves1966@...> wrote:
Hi,
ctrl+shift+N is even shorter to create a new folder.


-----Original Message-----
From: HBotma
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2016 8:14 AM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Brian's comments about WinXP, and I've changed the
subject line.

I prefer the folder layout in Windows 7 and above, because it lists
the documents with their details, so I can look at a document's
details simply by pressing the right arrow instead of having to go
through properties. The only thing I miss in the folders is the
option of using Alt-F W to create a new folder. This was lost by the
Wayside in Windows 8 and above, which was a useful feature. However,
I have found a way to work around this. Another thing is that the
menus differ in the File Explorer compaired to older versions, but
again, there are ways to work around this.

Heaven

On 4/19/16, Robin Frost <robini71@...> wrote:
Hi,
I’ve done just as Gene suggests below for many years and have used System
Restore with no ill effects.
Further I’ve even used Microsoft’s own folders and never interact with
the
“library” feature under windows 10. I find, access and interact with
files
just as I always have in prior incarnations of windows.
If things aren’t behaving or seeming to appear as they always have it
could
be more an issue of how folder views are set than anything else which can

be
completely defined by users specific to a given folder or general across
many.
I hope that helps.
Robin


From: Gene
Sent: Monday, April 18, 2016 10:39 PM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Brian's comments about WinXP, and I've changed the
subject line.

I'm not sure if or to what extent it is more difficult to organize files
in
Windows 7. I haven't used later versions but I would think the same
general
principle would apply. If you find problems regarding the library
feature,
one way to avoid such problems is to organize files outside of this
system.
Why not simply create your own folders? Instead of using the Microsoft
Documents folder, for example, why not create a documents folder on the c
drive. If you wanted, you could create a short cut on the desktop to the
folder, thus accessing the folder in the same way as you may have done
the
Microsoft Folder.

It may be that you would have to be careful when using something like
System
Restore that you wouldn't lose folders or certain files. I don't know
what
the case is now, but in the old days, System Restore didn't monitor My
Documents or any folders in it. So I would not advocate creating your
own
folder structure unless you back things up properly or don't use System
Restore in the first place. But if libraries do cause problems, there is

a
simple way around that which requires you to know nothing about the
library
feature.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Laurie Mehta via Groups.io
Sent: Monday, April 18, 2016 8:39 PM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Brian's comments about WinXP, and I've changed the
subject line.

Hi Brian,
I realize that some people hate change and that's where the discussion
ends
for them but there is at least one aspect of Windows XP that I preferred
to
what came after...
That is the file organization, and how straightforward it was to organize
files in meaningful folders and access files saved in folders keeping a
library neat and manageable.
For me, the file organization and file accessibility in Win7 and later
are
usable but not preferable. JMHO.
(smile)
Thanks for all that you contribute here. It's appreciated.
-LM

--------------------------------------------
On Mon, 4/18/16, Brian Vogel <@britechguy> wrote:

Subject: Re: [nvda] This is the moderator speaking: Question Regarding
Eloquence for NVDA from Code Factory
To: nvda@groups.io
Date: Monday, April 18, 2016, 6:27 PM

Rosemarie Chavarria
wrote, in regard to a friend of hers who insisted on staying
with WinXP, "I asked him
why and his answer was that it was simpler to work
with."And I can't count the times
I've heard this, about way more than Windows, and
thought, "No, it's not easier to work with -
it's what you're used to." Win XP was an OS I
loved and Microsoft has the annoying habit of alternating
"good" and "bad" versions of Windows.
The number of things that require manual intervention from
the user in XP is huge compared to later versions,
particularly Windows 7 forward. And, when it comes down to
it, even in the "ugly" versions of Windows the
similarities to their predecessors is at least as strong as
the differences, but the differences are where people are
required to learn something new.David Moore's comments
regarding those who live to be 100, or near it, really
resonate with me. My grandmother died in the 1990s and was
in her 90s at the time. When I think about what technology
was at her birth and the amount of change she and her age
cohort had to go through I am amazed. I don't know if
I could be as flexible as they were. While the pace of
change has picked up, particularly in the cyber world, the
majority of changes I've lived through (I'm just
short of 54 years old) feel to me much more like refinements
on very familiar themes rather than complete divergences
from what came before. That was not true for my
grandparents at all, and my parents experienced more
revolutionary changes than I have, too. I think my only
two revolutions were the introduction of the personal
computer and the ascendance of the
internet.Brian












topics straying out of NVDA territory

Kwork
 

I'm noticing that we're straying away on many of these discussions from actually discussing NVDA. With groups.io, sub groups can be created. Moderators, just a suggestion: what about creating an NVDA chat subgroup for those who are members of this list, and who want to keep things off topic for the main list? I personally don't mind using my delete key, but would rather use it for topics I'm just not interested in rather than trying to figure out which topics of departed from actual NVDA discussion. Just a suggestion.
Travis


locked Re: why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?

Rosemarie Chavarria
 

Oh wow. That's neat you listened to different podcasts on windows 7 before you switched. I did too but I also bought the book about windows 7 from National Braille Press. That helped a lot. This computer that I'm using now started out as a windows 7 computer before I upgraded to windows 10 in September of last year.

-----Original Message-----
From: Arlene [mailto:nedster66@...]
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2016 9:30 PM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?

Oh like me. Mine was about to bite the dust. I got a win 7 before it did! I knew sooner or later it was going to die. While I was in the process of getting the computer from the government I was on the windows 7 list taking notes and listening to audio programs on how to learn it. I knew it was going to be 7. I listened to podcasts on Fs's site on 7. I did all that while using xp.

-----Original Message-----
From: Rosemarie Chavarria [mailto:knitqueen2007@...]
Sent: April-19-16 9:26 PM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?

Hi, Arleen,

I'm not talking about people who have learning disabilities. I'm talking about people who don't want to try learning new things and they don't have difficulties in learning. I'm very proud of my friend in Main for getting her computer from that place in Texas. Her XP computer was ready to bite the dust so I think she did the right thing.

Rosemarie



-----Original Message-----
From: Arlene [mailto:nedster66@...]
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2016 5:33 PM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?

Hi Sean, do you have a learning difficulty? If you do then that makes scence if you don’t want to change do you have troubles learning new windows tasks? If you found xp easy to learn then that makes scence why you don’t want to leave it and can't afford a new computer. If you feel you like to stay where you are. That's great. But if you need to change and learn a new system you may have to listen and listen to the audio teaching programs until the mp3 files wear out. Loll!

-----Original Message-----
From: Shaun Everiss [mailto:@smeveriss]
Sent: April-19-16 1:45 PM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?

I agree, if there was some sort of interface program for windows where you updated the core but chose what interface you used for everything from start menu to explorer to menus, to desktop even if that meant advanced interface features would not be available including ms accounts, apps, etc then I would have no issue changing.
I want the system to be as simple as possible for my daily tasks.
And while the newer the system the moresimple it is for normals for us and disabled in general its reversed.



On 19/04/2016 9:15 p.m., Katty Geltmeyer wrote:
Gene, you are right, I understand your point. But it would be helpful if someone tells you what are the changes, so that you can explore a website or programme more efficiently. I don't have an overview of pages etc. so, I go exploring. But this takes some time. And if buttons change behaviour, I mean if you could activate them by using space bar or enter in the past and now they need some other way to be activated, that's a bit a hassle if no one could assist you.



Best, Katty



Van: Gene [mailto:gsasner@...]
Verzonden: dinsdag 19 april 2016 10:41
Aan: nvda@groups.io
Onderwerp: Re: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?



That is true in some cases but in many, that is a real exaggeration and reflects users not understanding how to learn the structure of a program or not understanding a new structure such as ribbons.



Lots of times, if a web site changes, what is desired can easily be found on the site by using the find command. For example, from time to time, Send Space has changed the way you begin a file download. There might have been a link that says download, for example. That link was changed to a button but if someone is used to using the links list, an artificial structure that separates them from the page and doesn't know how to explore the page itself, they may well have considerable difficulty and may need help to find out how to download again. This does not need to be a crisis. All that need be done is to go to the top of the page and use your screen-reader's find command to search the page for the word download. You will immediately see that download is now a button and you can then simply type the letter b when a Send Space download page opens to move to it.

If a program changes its structure, such as by adopting ribbons, if you know how to look through ribbons, you can look through them and, if desired, make notes of the key combinations to perform certain functions. This is similar to what you might do in a menu program. Far too many blind people are taught to do things by rote and so any change may be a crisis. In many cases, if taught properly, it can be just an inconvenience.



I'm not saying there aren't real problems such as when a program becomes inaccessible or much less so with a new release. But I am saying that many problems could be reduced to inconveniences if blind people were taught to conceptualize what they are doing and not to take certain actions by rote without real understanding of how something is structured and how to learn programs by trying different ways of learning about it such as looking through menus or ribbons.



Some blind people will find such ways of conceptualizing and learning difficult and some will find them easy and some in between. But many people are never taught such things so easy, difficult or in between for them, they never get to find out.



Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Katty Geltmeyer <mailto:kattygeltmeyer@...>

Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2016 2:47 AM

To: nvda@groups.io <mailto:nvda@groups.io>

Subject: Re: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?



For seeing persons, compare the situation of the blind with the following: you are used to go to your local supermarket, and nearly to find everything you need on the shelves by almost walking asleep (you know what to find where). At a certain day, everything is changed: the name of the store, the products inside, the position of the products on the shelves, the shelves themselves, the several departments (bakery, vegetables, …) everything you can think of is changed. Unfortunately you are forced to wander through the store without having an overview of the store, no scanning of the shelves with the eyes, … After a mornth, you are used to the new store and products and their place in the store, everything changes again and you can start all over again. Isn't this a nightmare? Well, that's what the blind are forced to do every time a website, a programme, … changes.



In fact, I should post this to the accessible googlegroup.



Best, Katty



Van: n8mnx@... [mailto:n8mnx@...]
Verzonden: dinsdag 19 april 2016 4:14
Aan: nvda@groups.io
Onderwerp: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?



I think that maybe blind people are not against change for the
sake of change but it's the fear that their old favorite programs
won't work and how accessable will the new os be or how accessable
will the new programs be. I to did like windows xp with outlook
express and when I was concitering upgrading to windows 7 I was
hesitent because I did not know what email program would work and be
accessable. I did of course upgrade and used windows live mail and
when I began to have issues with it I went to thunderbird and I now
have windows 10 and I still use thunderbird. I think that the reason
that we all like outlook express isthat it is just a simple email
program with nobells and whistles like calendars or features that we
don't need or can't use. Outlook express will always be the best
email program but we have adapted to other programs but that does not
mean that we are happy with them we just adjust. We all don't like
change but we can and do adapt but we don't like it
. With new versions of windows there may be features that we don't need or want or we can't use but we use what we want to use or what we can use. I know that every one has their screen reader of choice and they think that theirs is the best I use nvdathen there is the issue of winamp it's no longer supported but I still have not been convinced that there is a better program so I will just keep using it. We should upgrade if we need to but we chould not have change fordced upon us this should be our choice. Think of the Omish people they don't have cars they still use horse and buggies that is their choice and so is somones choice if they still use windows xp if they are willing to take the risk thats their choice and not ours.
Brian Sackrider

On 4/18/2016 9:48 PM, Pauline Smith wrote:

Change is hard, but we must adjust. I wasn't fond of Win 7 when I got this computer, but I have adjusted. When a colleague told me how to find and put terms into the search bar by hitting the Start button, much frustration has been saved. Now, I'm comtemplating doing the upgrade to Win 10. I just wanted to make sure I knew what I was getting into before doing it.

Pauline

On 4/18/2016 6:27 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:

Rosemarie Chavarria wrote, in regard to a friend of hers who insisted on staying with WinXP, "I asked him why and his answer was that it was simpler to work with."

And I can't count the times I've heard this, about way more than Windows, and thought, "No, it's not easier to work with - it's what you're used to." Win XP was an OS I loved and Microsoft has the annoying habit of alternating "good" and "bad" versions of Windows. The number of things that require manual intervention from the user in XP is huge compared to later versions, particularly Windows 7 forward. And, when it comes down to it, even in the "ugly" versions of Windows the similarities to their predecessors is at least as strong as the differences, but the differences are where people are required to learn something new.

David Moore's comments regarding those who live to be 100, or near it, really resonate with me. My grandmother died in the 1990s and was in her 90s at the time. When I think about what technology was at her birth and the amount of change she and her age cohort had to go through I am amazed. I don't know if I could be as flexible as they were. While the pace of change has picked up, particularly in the cyber world, the majority of changes I've lived through (I'm just short of 54 years old) feel to me much more like refinements on very familiar themes rather than complete divergences from what came before. That was not true for my grandparents at all, and my parents experienced more revolutionary changes than I have, too. I think my only two revolutions were the introduction of the personal computer and the ascendance of the internet.

Brian








locked Re: why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?

Rosemarie Chavarria
 

Hi, David,

That's a good reason to use XP. I don't blame you for not wanting to upgrade to a higher version of openbook.

-----Original Message-----
From: David Moore [mailto:jesusloves1966@...]
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2016 9:29 PM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?

I must confess,
I use my old computer with Windows XP to do one activity. I don't want to pay to upgrade to OpenBook 7 to version 9, so I scan all of my printed material with that XP computer LOL! I am using One Drive, Google Drive and Google Docs and those kinds of programs as well as being on the net a lot, so that old XP computer would not work for all of that LOL.
I just had to come clean LOL about using that XP computer for something LOL.


-----Original Message-----
From: Rosemarie Chavarria
Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2016 12:17 AM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?

Hi, Arleen,

You could also use XP for word processing too. You don't have to go on the internet to do that.

Rosemarie



-----Original Message-----
From: Arlene [mailto:nedster66@...]
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2016 9:14 PM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?

Well, if you use xp. Just so you know. some sites on IE 9 or whatever xp uses. Cant be accessible. With xp if you don’t crues the web you'll be fine.
If you do it a lot with xp its almost impossible. If you use it for games and audio editing then again you'll be fine. If you have a win 7 as another system you can still crues the web with no problems.

-----Original Message-----
From: Shaun Everiss [mailto:@smeveriss]
Sent: April-19-16 5:55 PM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?

I agree, I am not here by choice.
While I could afford a change up, its more a question of exactly what I would need it for.
And I can't get every change.
maybe 1 or 2 changes every 5-10 years in my current situation.
But being without a job etc, changing is at the end of a long list though if and when it happens, it happens.
Even if that means I get a machine for my old games, and audio stuff that is offline and runs xp or 7 and then have another machine that handles the web, and email who knows.
Not thought passed that.



On 20/04/2016 12:08 p.m., Arlene wrote:
No it doesn’t. Also too, Yes blind people do wine over change.But, We
all need to take into consideration their walk of life. If they can’t
afford new equipment for many reasons. Yes they should update if
something like xp is no longer usable on the web. Also, most blind
people do need to quit wining! It makes it look bad for those who want
to change but can’t afford it! I will change if I have to. I’m saving
money to get myself a new hard drive so I can update to ten if I have to. I will learn ten if I have to.
Don’t worry I’m not wining! Loll!



From: David Moore [mailto:jesusloves1966@...]
Sent: April-19-16 3:51 PM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so
against change?



Hi Jene,

That is exactly what I do. It sure does not hurt to have two screen
readers at your finger tips either.

You can have JAWS as a 40 minute demo mode just in case, and JAWS
users can get NVDA for free. You should not be attacked if you use two
screen readers LOL! That type of memorizing will not get you around on
many sites you have never been on. Take care all.





From: Gene <mailto:gsasner@...>

Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2016 6:07 AM

To: nvda@groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so
against change?



I'm not sure what you have in mind by someone telling you. I'll
discuss the Internet in the rest of this message.



There are certain structures that you have to use the virtual mouse of
your screen-reader to activate and those represent a lack of
accessibility. but those who design sites often know little, if
anything, about accessibility. And even if a site is accessible, if a
bnlind person doesn't know how to find things on sites efficiently,
they may waste a lot of time doing unnecessary things. For example,
they may tab through item after item on a site when using the find
command might allow them to find something very quickly. Continuing
with the Internet as an example, to use the Internet to anywhere near
it's potential in terms of efficiency, you have to know how to work
with sites you haven't worked with before. A good deal of my Internet
use is doing google searches and looking up information on sites I've
never used or seldom used. Some people micromemorize sites, for
example, memorizing that this or that is the second heading level 4 on
a site. You simply can't use the Inter
net well in terms of working with large numbers of sites if you rely on such micromemorization. If people want to micromemorize this or that item on a site they use constantly, I'm not telling them that they shouldn't. but when I see people engage in such micromemorization, it raises the question for me if they know how to work with sites efficiently in general.



When I'm on a site I use often and I want to find the editorial link,
I use the find command and search for the link. If it were a heading
and I could get there efficiently by moving by heading, I might do
that. but it isn't. the find command is the only way I know to find
the link efficiently on the site.



Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Katty Geltmeyer <mailto:kattygeltmeyer@...>

Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2016 4:15 AM

To: nvda@groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so
against change?



Gene, you are right, I understand your point. But it would be helpful
if someone tells you what are the changes, so that you can explore a
website or programme more efficiently. I don't have an overview of
pages etc. so, I go exploring. But this takes some time. And if
buttons change behaviour, I mean if you could activate them by using
space bar or enter in the past and now they need some other way to be
activated, that's a bit a hassle if no one could assist you.



Best, Katty



Van: Gene [mailto:gsasner@...]
Verzonden: dinsdag 19 april 2016 10:41
Aan: nvda@groups.io
Onderwerp: Re: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so
against change?



That is true in some cases but in many, that is a real exaggeration
and reflects users not understanding how to learn the structure of a
program or not understanding a new structure such as ribbons.



Lots of times, if a web site changes, what is desired can easily be
found on the site by using the find command. For example, from time
to time, Send Space has changed the way you begin a file download.
There might have been a link that says download, for example. That
link was changed to a button but if someone is used to using the links
list, an artificial structure that separates them from the page and
doesn't know how to explore the page itself, they may well have
considerable difficulty and may need help to find out how to download
again. This does not need to be a crisis. All that need be done is
to go to the top of the page and use your screen-reader's find command
to search the page for the word download. You will immediately see
that download is now a button and you can then simply type the letter
b when a Send Space download page opens to move to it.

If a program changes its structure, such as by adopting ribbons, if
you know how to look through ribbons, you can look through them and,
if desired, make notes of the key combinations to perform certain functions.
This is similar to what you might do in a menu program. Far too many
blind people are taught to do things by rote and so any change may be
a crisis. In many cases, if taught properly, it can be just an
inconvenience.



I'm not saying there aren't real problems such as when a program
becomes inaccessible or much less so with a new release. But I am
saying that many problems could be reduced to inconveniences if blind
people were taught to conceptualize what they are doing and not to
take certain actions by rote without real understanding of how
something is structured and how to learn programs by trying different
ways of learning about it such as looking through menus or ribbons.



Some blind people will find such ways of conceptualizing and learning
difficult and some will find them easy and some in between. But many
people are never taught such things so easy, difficult or in between
for them, they never get to find out.



Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Katty Geltmeyer <mailto:kattygeltmeyer@...>

Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2016 2:47 AM

To: nvda@groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so
against change?



For seeing persons, compare the situation of the blind with the following:
you are used to go to your local supermarket, and nearly to find
everything you need on the shelves by almost walking asleep (you know
what to find where). At a certain day, everything is changed: the name
of the store, the products inside, the position of the products on the
shelves, the shelves themselves, the several departments (bakery,
vegetables, …) everything you can think of is changed. Unfortunately
you are forced to wander through the store without having an overview
of the store, no scanning of the shelves with the eyes, … After a
mornth, you are used to the new store and products and their place in
the store, everything changes again and you can start all over again. Isn't this a nightmare?
Well, that's what the blind are forced to do every time a website, a
programme, … changes.



In fact, I should post this to the accessible googlegroup.



Best, Katty



Van: n8mnx@... [mailto:n8mnx@...]
Verzonden: dinsdag 19 april 2016 4:14
Aan: nvda@groups.io
Onderwerp: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so
against change?



I think that maybe blind people are not against change for the
sake of change but it's the fear that their old favorite programs
won't work and how accessable will the new os be or how accessable
will the new programs be. I to did like windows xp with outlook
express and when I was concitering upgrading to windows 7 I was
hesitent because I did not know what email program would work and be
accessable. I did of course upgrade and used windows live mail and
when I began to have issues with it I went to thunderbird and I now
have windows 10 and I still use thunderbird. I think that the reason
that we all like outlook express isthat it is just a simple email
program with nobells and whistles like calendars or features that we
don't need or can't use. Outlook express will always be the best
email program but we have adapted to other programs but that does not
mean that we are happy with them we just adjust. We all don't like
change but we can and do adapt but we don't like it
. With new versions of windows there may be features that we don't need or want or we can't use but we use what we want to use or what we can use. I know that every one has their screen reader of choice and they think that theirs is the best I use nvdathen there is the issue of winamp it's no longer supported but I still have not been convinced that there is a better program so I will just keep using it. We should upgrade if we need to but we chould not have change fordced upon us this should be our choice. Think of the Omish people they don't have cars they still use horse and buggies that is their choice and so is somones choice if they still use windows xp if they are willing to take the risk thats their choice and not ours.
Brian Sackrider

On 4/18/2016 9:48 PM, Pauline Smith wrote:

Change is hard, but we must adjust. I wasn't fond of Win 7 when I got
this computer, but I have adjusted. When a colleague told me how to
find and put terms into the search bar by hitting the Start button,
much frustration has been saved. Now, I'm comtemplating doing the
upgrade to Win 10. I just wanted to make sure I knew what I was
getting into before doing it.

Pauline

On 4/18/2016 6:27 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:

Rosemarie Chavarria wrote, in regard to a friend of hers who insisted
on staying with WinXP, "I asked him why and his answer was that it was
simpler to work with."

And I can't count the times I've heard this, about way more than
Windows, and thought, "No, it's not easier to work with - it's what
you're used to." Win XP was an OS I loved and Microsoft has the
annoying habit of alternating "good" and "bad" versions of Windows.
The number of things that require manual intervention from the user in
XP is huge compared to later versions, particularly Windows 7 forward.
And, when it comes down to it, even in the "ugly" versions of Windows
the similarities to their predecessors is at least as strong as the
differences, but the differences are where people are required to learn something new.

David Moore's comments regarding those who live to be 100, or near it,
really resonate with me. My grandmother died in the 1990s and was in
her 90s at the time. When I think about what technology was at her
birth and the amount of change she and her age cohort had to go through I am amazed.
I don't know if I could be as flexible as they were. While the pace
of change has picked up, particularly in the cyber world, the majority
of changes I've lived through (I'm just short of 54 years old) feel to
me much more like refinements on very familiar themes rather than
complete divergences from what came before. That was not true for my
grandparents at all, and my parents experienced more revolutionary
changes than I have, too. I think my only two revolutions were the
introduction of the personal computer and the ascendance of the internet.

Brian








locked Re: why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?

Arlene
 

Well then if that's what yu use it for. Then all the world to you.

-----Original Message-----
From: David Moore [mailto:jesusloves1966@...]
Sent: April-19-16 9:29 PM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?

I must confess,
I use my old computer with Windows XP to do one activity. I don't want to
pay to upgrade to OpenBook 7 to version 9, so I scan all of my printed
material with that XP computer LOL! I am using One Drive, Google Drive and
Google Docs and those kinds of programs as well as being on the net a lot,
so that old XP computer would not work for all of that LOL.
I just had to come clean LOL about using that XP computer for something LOL.


-----Original Message-----
From: Rosemarie Chavarria
Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2016 12:17 AM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against
change?

Hi, Arleen,

You could also use XP for word processing too. You don't have to go on the
internet to do that.

Rosemarie



-----Original Message-----
From: Arlene [mailto:nedster66@...]
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2016 9:14 PM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against
change?

Well, if you use xp. Just so you know. some sites on IE 9 or whatever xp
uses. Cant be accessible. With xp if you don’t crues the web you'll be fine.
If you do it a lot with xp its almost impossible. If you use it for games
and audio editing then again you'll be fine. If you have a win 7 as another
system you can still crues the web with no problems.

-----Original Message-----
From: Shaun Everiss [mailto:@smeveriss]
Sent: April-19-16 5:55 PM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against
change?

I agree, I am not here by choice.
While I could afford a change up, its more a question of exactly what I
would need it for.
And I can't get every change.
maybe 1 or 2 changes every 5-10 years in my current situation.
But being without a job etc, changing is at the end of a long list though if
and when it happens, it happens.
Even if that means I get a machine for my old games, and audio stuff that is
offline and runs xp or 7 and then have another machine that handles the web,
and email who knows.
Not thought passed that.



On 20/04/2016 12:08 p.m., Arlene wrote:
No it doesn’t. Also too, Yes blind people do wine over change.But, We all
need to take into consideration their walk of life. If they can’t afford
new equipment for many reasons. Yes they should update if something like
xp is no longer usable on the web. Also, most blind people do need to quit
wining! It makes it look bad for those who want to change but can’t afford
it! I will change if I have to. I’m saving money to get myself a new hard
drive so I can update to ten if I have to. I will learn ten if I have to.
Don’t worry I’m not wining! Loll!



From: David Moore [mailto:jesusloves1966@...]
Sent: April-19-16 3:51 PM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against
change?



Hi Jene,

That is exactly what I do. It sure does not hurt to have two screen
readers at your finger tips either.

You can have JAWS as a 40 minute demo mode just in case, and JAWS users
can get NVDA for free. You should not be attacked if you use two screen
readers LOL! That type of memorizing will not get you around on many sites
you have never been on. Take care all.





From: Gene <mailto:gsasner@...>

Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2016 6:07 AM

To: nvda@groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against
change?



I'm not sure what you have in mind by someone telling you. I'll discuss
the Internet in the rest of this message.



There are certain structures that you have to use the virtual mouse of
your screen-reader to activate and those represent a lack of
accessibility. but those who design sites often know little, if
anything, about accessibility. And even if a site is accessible, if a
bnlind person doesn't know how to find things on sites efficiently,
they may waste a lot of time doing unnecessary things. For example,
they may tab through item after item on a site when using the find
command might allow them to find something very quickly. Continuing
with the Internet as an example, to use the Internet to anywhere near
it's potential in terms of efficiency, you have to know how to work
with sites you haven't worked with before. A good deal of my Internet
use is doing google searches and looking up information on sites I've
never used or seldom used. Some people micromemorize sites, for
example, memorizing that this or that is the second heading level 4 on
a site. You simply can't use the Inter
net well in terms of working with large numbers of sites if you rely on such
micromemorization. If people want to micromemorize this or that item on a
site they use constantly, I'm not telling them that they shouldn't. but
when I see people engage in such micromemorization, it raises the question
for me if they know how to work with sites efficiently in general.



When I'm on a site I use often and I want to find the editorial link, I
use the find command and search for the link. If it were a heading and I
could get there efficiently by moving by heading, I might do that. but it
isn't. the find command is the only way I know to find the link
efficiently on the site.



Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Katty Geltmeyer <mailto:kattygeltmeyer@...>

Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2016 4:15 AM

To: nvda@groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against
change?



Gene, you are right, I understand your point. But it would be helpful if
someone tells you what are the changes, so that you can explore a website
or programme more efficiently. I don't have an overview of pages etc. so,
I go exploring. But this takes some time. And if buttons change behaviour,
I mean if you could activate them by using space bar or enter in the past
and now they need some other way to be activated, that's a bit a hassle if
no one could assist you.



Best, Katty



Van: Gene [mailto:gsasner@...]
Verzonden: dinsdag 19 april 2016 10:41
Aan: nvda@groups.io
Onderwerp: Re: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so
against change?



That is true in some cases but in many, that is a real exaggeration and
reflects users not understanding how to learn the structure of a program
or not understanding a new structure such as ribbons.



Lots of times, if a web site changes, what is desired can easily be found
on the site by using the find command. For example, from time to time,
Send Space has changed the way you begin a file download. There might
have been a link that says download, for example. That link was changed
to a button but if someone is used to using the links list, an artificial
structure that separates them from the page and doesn't know how to
explore the page itself, they may well have considerable difficulty and
may need help to find out how to download again. This does not need to be
a crisis. All that need be done is to go to the top of the page and use
your screen-reader's find command to search the page for the word
download. You will immediately see that download is now a button and you
can then simply type the letter b when a Send Space download page opens to
move to it.

If a program changes its structure, such as by adopting ribbons, if you
know how to look through ribbons, you can look through them and, if
desired, make notes of the key combinations to perform certain functions.
This is similar to what you might do in a menu program. Far too many
blind people are taught to do things by rote and so any change may be a
crisis. In many cases, if taught properly, it can be just an
inconvenience.



I'm not saying there aren't real problems such as when a program becomes
inaccessible or much less so with a new release. But I am saying that
many problems could be reduced to inconveniences if blind people were
taught to conceptualize what they are doing and not to take certain
actions by rote without real understanding of how something is structured
and how to learn programs by trying different ways of learning about it
such as looking through menus or ribbons.



Some blind people will find such ways of conceptualizing and learning
difficult and some will find them easy and some in between. But many
people are never taught such things so easy, difficult or in between for
them, they never get to find out.



Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Katty Geltmeyer <mailto:kattygeltmeyer@...>

Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2016 2:47 AM

To: nvda@groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against
change?



For seeing persons, compare the situation of the blind with the following:
you are used to go to your local supermarket, and nearly to find
everything you need on the shelves by almost walking asleep (you know what
to find where). At a certain day, everything is changed: the name of the
store, the products inside, the position of the products on the shelves,
the shelves themselves, the several departments (bakery, vegetables, …)
everything you can think of is changed. Unfortunately you are forced to
wander through the store without having an overview of the store, no
scanning of the shelves with the eyes, … After a mornth, you are used to
the new store and products and their place in the store, everything
changes again and you can start all over again. Isn't this a nightmare?
Well, that's what the blind are forced to do every time a website, a
programme, … changes.



In fact, I should post this to the accessible googlegroup.



Best, Katty



Van: n8mnx@... [mailto:n8mnx@...]
Verzonden: dinsdag 19 april 2016 4:14
Aan: nvda@groups.io
Onderwerp: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against
change?



I think that maybe blind people are not against change for the
sake of change but it's the fear that their old favorite programs
won't work and how accessable will the new os be or how accessable
will the new programs be. I to did like windows xp with outlook
express and when I was concitering upgrading to windows 7 I was
hesitent because I did not know what email program would work and be
accessable. I did of course upgrade and used windows live mail and
when I began to have issues with it I went to thunderbird and I now
have windows 10 and I still use thunderbird. I think that the reason
that we all like outlook express isthat it is just a simple email
program with nobells and whistles like calendars or features that we
don't need or can't use. Outlook express will always be the best
email program but we have adapted to other programs but that does not
mean that we are happy with them we just adjust. We all don't like
change but we can and do adapt but we don't like it
. With new versions of windows there may be features that we don't need or
want or we can't use but we use what we want to use or what we can use. I
know that every one has their screen reader of choice and they think that
theirs is the best I use nvdathen there is the issue of winamp it's no
longer supported but I still have not been convinced that there is a better
program so I will just keep using it. We should upgrade if we need to but
we chould not have change fordced upon us this should be our choice. Think
of the Omish people they don't have cars they still use horse and buggies
that is their choice and so is somones choice if they still use windows xp
if they are willing to take the risk thats their choice and not ours.
Brian Sackrider

On 4/18/2016 9:48 PM, Pauline Smith wrote:

Change is hard, but we must adjust. I wasn't fond of Win 7 when I got
this computer, but I have adjusted. When a colleague told me how to find
and put terms into the search bar by hitting the Start button, much
frustration has been saved. Now, I'm comtemplating doing the upgrade to
Win 10. I just wanted to make sure I knew what I was getting into before
doing it.

Pauline

On 4/18/2016 6:27 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:

Rosemarie Chavarria wrote, in regard to a friend of hers who insisted on
staying with WinXP, "I asked him why and his answer was that it was
simpler to work with."

And I can't count the times I've heard this, about way more than Windows,
and thought, "No, it's not easier to work with - it's what you're used
to." Win XP was an OS I loved and Microsoft has the annoying habit of
alternating "good" and "bad" versions of Windows. The number of things
that require manual intervention from the user in XP is huge compared to
later versions, particularly Windows 7 forward. And, when it comes down
to it, even in the "ugly" versions of Windows the similarities to their
predecessors is at least as strong as the differences, but the differences
are where people are required to learn something new.

David Moore's comments regarding those who live to be 100, or near it,
really resonate with me. My grandmother died in the 1990s and was in her
90s at the time. When I think about what technology was at her birth and
the amount of change she and her age cohort had to go through I am amazed.
I don't know if I could be as flexible as they were. While the pace of
change has picked up, particularly in the cyber world, the majority of
changes I've lived through (I'm just short of 54 years old) feel to me
much more like refinements on very familiar themes rather than complete
divergences from what came before. That was not true for my grandparents
at all, and my parents experienced more revolutionary changes than I have,
too. I think my only two revolutions were the introduction of the
personal computer and the ascendance of the internet.

Brian








locked Re: why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?

Arlene
 

Oh like me. Mine was about to bite the dust. I got a win 7 before it did! I knew sooner or later it was going to die. While I was in the process of getting the computer from the government I was on the windows 7 list taking notes and listening to audio programs on how to learn it. I knew it was going to be 7. I listened to podcasts on Fs's site on 7. I did all that while using xp.

-----Original Message-----
From: Rosemarie Chavarria [mailto:knitqueen2007@...]
Sent: April-19-16 9:26 PM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?

Hi, Arleen,

I'm not talking about people who have learning disabilities. I'm talking about people who don't want to try learning new things and they don't have difficulties in learning. I'm very proud of my friend in Main for getting her computer from that place in Texas. Her XP computer was ready to bite the dust so I think she did the right thing.

Rosemarie



-----Original Message-----
From: Arlene [mailto:nedster66@...]
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2016 5:33 PM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?

Hi Sean, do you have a learning difficulty? If you do then that makes scence if you don’t want to change do you have troubles learning new windows tasks? If you found xp easy to learn then that makes scence why you don’t want to leave it and can't afford a new computer. If you feel you like to stay where you are. That's great. But if you need to change and learn a new system you may have to listen and listen to the audio teaching programs until the mp3 files wear out. Loll!

-----Original Message-----
From: Shaun Everiss [mailto:@smeveriss]
Sent: April-19-16 1:45 PM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?

I agree, if there was some sort of interface program for windows where you updated the core but chose what interface you used for everything from start menu to explorer to menus, to desktop even if that meant advanced interface features would not be available including ms accounts, apps, etc then I would have no issue changing.
I want the system to be as simple as possible for my daily tasks.
And while the newer the system the moresimple it is for normals for us and disabled in general its reversed.



On 19/04/2016 9:15 p.m., Katty Geltmeyer wrote:
Gene, you are right, I understand your point. But it would be helpful if someone tells you what are the changes, so that you can explore a website or programme more efficiently. I don't have an overview of pages etc. so, I go exploring. But this takes some time. And if buttons change behaviour, I mean if you could activate them by using space bar or enter in the past and now they need some other way to be activated, that's a bit a hassle if no one could assist you.



Best, Katty



Van: Gene [mailto:gsasner@...]
Verzonden: dinsdag 19 april 2016 10:41
Aan: nvda@groups.io
Onderwerp: Re: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?



That is true in some cases but in many, that is a real exaggeration and reflects users not understanding how to learn the structure of a program or not understanding a new structure such as ribbons.



Lots of times, if a web site changes, what is desired can easily be found on the site by using the find command. For example, from time to time, Send Space has changed the way you begin a file download. There might have been a link that says download, for example. That link was changed to a button but if someone is used to using the links list, an artificial structure that separates them from the page and doesn't know how to explore the page itself, they may well have considerable difficulty and may need help to find out how to download again. This does not need to be a crisis. All that need be done is to go to the top of the page and use your screen-reader's find command to search the page for the word download. You will immediately see that download is now a button and you can then simply type the letter b when a Send Space download page opens to move to it.

If a program changes its structure, such as by adopting ribbons, if you know how to look through ribbons, you can look through them and, if desired, make notes of the key combinations to perform certain functions. This is similar to what you might do in a menu program. Far too many blind people are taught to do things by rote and so any change may be a crisis. In many cases, if taught properly, it can be just an inconvenience.



I'm not saying there aren't real problems such as when a program becomes inaccessible or much less so with a new release. But I am saying that many problems could be reduced to inconveniences if blind people were taught to conceptualize what they are doing and not to take certain actions by rote without real understanding of how something is structured and how to learn programs by trying different ways of learning about it such as looking through menus or ribbons.



Some blind people will find such ways of conceptualizing and learning difficult and some will find them easy and some in between. But many people are never taught such things so easy, difficult or in between for them, they never get to find out.



Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Katty Geltmeyer <mailto:kattygeltmeyer@...>

Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2016 2:47 AM

To: nvda@groups.io <mailto:nvda@groups.io>

Subject: Re: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?



For seeing persons, compare the situation of the blind with the following: you are used to go to your local supermarket, and nearly to find everything you need on the shelves by almost walking asleep (you know what to find where). At a certain day, everything is changed: the name of the store, the products inside, the position of the products on the shelves, the shelves themselves, the several departments (bakery, vegetables, …) everything you can think of is changed. Unfortunately you are forced to wander through the store without having an overview of the store, no scanning of the shelves with the eyes, … After a mornth, you are used to the new store and products and their place in the store, everything changes again and you can start all over again. Isn't this a nightmare? Well, that's what the blind are forced to do every time a website, a programme, … changes.



In fact, I should post this to the accessible googlegroup.



Best, Katty



Van: n8mnx@... [mailto:n8mnx@...]
Verzonden: dinsdag 19 april 2016 4:14
Aan: nvda@groups.io
Onderwerp: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?



I think that maybe blind people are not against change for the
sake of change but it's the fear that their old favorite programs
won't work and how accessable will the new os be or how accessable
will the new programs be. I to did like windows xp with outlook
express and when I was concitering upgrading to windows 7 I was
hesitent because I did not know what email program would work and be
accessable. I did of course upgrade and used windows live mail and
when I began to have issues with it I went to thunderbird and I now
have windows 10 and I still use thunderbird. I think that the reason
that we all like outlook express isthat it is just a simple email
program with nobells and whistles like calendars or features that we
don't need or can't use. Outlook express will always be the best
email program but we have adapted to other programs but that does not
mean that we are happy with them we just adjust. We all don't like
change but we can and do adapt but we don't like it
. With new versions of windows there may be features that we don't need or want or we can't use but we use what we want to use or what we can use. I know that every one has their screen reader of choice and they think that theirs is the best I use nvdathen there is the issue of winamp it's no longer supported but I still have not been convinced that there is a better program so I will just keep using it. We should upgrade if we need to but we chould not have change fordced upon us this should be our choice. Think of the Omish people they don't have cars they still use horse and buggies that is their choice and so is somones choice if they still use windows xp if they are willing to take the risk thats their choice and not ours.
Brian Sackrider

On 4/18/2016 9:48 PM, Pauline Smith wrote:

Change is hard, but we must adjust. I wasn't fond of Win 7 when I got this computer, but I have adjusted. When a colleague told me how to find and put terms into the search bar by hitting the Start button, much frustration has been saved. Now, I'm comtemplating doing the upgrade to Win 10. I just wanted to make sure I knew what I was getting into before doing it.

Pauline

On 4/18/2016 6:27 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:

Rosemarie Chavarria wrote, in regard to a friend of hers who insisted on staying with WinXP, "I asked him why and his answer was that it was simpler to work with."

And I can't count the times I've heard this, about way more than Windows, and thought, "No, it's not easier to work with - it's what you're used to." Win XP was an OS I loved and Microsoft has the annoying habit of alternating "good" and "bad" versions of Windows. The number of things that require manual intervention from the user in XP is huge compared to later versions, particularly Windows 7 forward. And, when it comes down to it, even in the "ugly" versions of Windows the similarities to their predecessors is at least as strong as the differences, but the differences are where people are required to learn something new.

David Moore's comments regarding those who live to be 100, or near it, really resonate with me. My grandmother died in the 1990s and was in her 90s at the time. When I think about what technology was at her birth and the amount of change she and her age cohort had to go through I am amazed. I don't know if I could be as flexible as they were. While the pace of change has picked up, particularly in the cyber world, the majority of changes I've lived through (I'm just short of 54 years old) feel to me much more like refinements on very familiar themes rather than complete divergences from what came before. That was not true for my grandparents at all, and my parents experienced more revolutionary changes than I have, too. I think my only two revolutions were the introduction of the personal computer and the ascendance of the internet.

Brian








locked Re: why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?

David Moore
 

I must confess,
I use my old computer with Windows XP to do one activity. I don't want to pay to upgrade to OpenBook 7 to version 9, so I scan all of my printed material with that XP computer LOL! I am using One Drive, Google Drive and Google Docs and those kinds of programs as well as being on the net a lot, so that old XP computer would not work for all of that LOL.
I just had to come clean LOL about using that XP computer for something LOL.

-----Original Message-----
From: Rosemarie Chavarria
Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2016 12:17 AM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?

Hi, Arleen,

You could also use XP for word processing too. You don't have to go on the internet to do that.

Rosemarie



-----Original Message-----
From: Arlene [mailto:nedster66@...]
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2016 9:14 PM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?

Well, if you use xp. Just so you know. some sites on IE 9 or whatever xp uses. Cant be accessible. With xp if you don’t crues the web you'll be fine. If you do it a lot with xp its almost impossible. If you use it for games and audio editing then again you'll be fine. If you have a win 7 as another system you can still crues the web with no problems.

-----Original Message-----
From: Shaun Everiss [mailto:@smeveriss]
Sent: April-19-16 5:55 PM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?

I agree, I am not here by choice.
While I could afford a change up, its more a question of exactly what I would need it for.
And I can't get every change.
maybe 1 or 2 changes every 5-10 years in my current situation.
But being without a job etc, changing is at the end of a long list though if and when it happens, it happens.
Even if that means I get a machine for my old games, and audio stuff that is offline and runs xp or 7 and then have another machine that handles the web, and email who knows.
Not thought passed that.



On 20/04/2016 12:08 p.m., Arlene wrote:
No it doesn’t. Also too, Yes blind people do wine over change.But, We all need to take into consideration their walk of life. If they can’t afford new equipment for many reasons. Yes they should update if something like xp is no longer usable on the web. Also, most blind people do need to quit wining! It makes it look bad for those who want to change but can’t afford it! I will change if I have to. I’m saving money to get myself a new hard drive so I can update to ten if I have to. I will learn ten if I have to. Don’t worry I’m not wining! Loll!



From: David Moore [mailto:jesusloves1966@...]
Sent: April-19-16 3:51 PM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?



Hi Jene,

That is exactly what I do. It sure does not hurt to have two screen readers at your finger tips either.

You can have JAWS as a 40 minute demo mode just in case, and JAWS users can get NVDA for free. You should not be attacked if you use two screen readers LOL! That type of memorizing will not get you around on many sites you have never been on. Take care all.





From: Gene <mailto:gsasner@...>

Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2016 6:07 AM

To: nvda@groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?



I'm not sure what you have in mind by someone telling you. I'll discuss the Internet in the rest of this message.



There are certain structures that you have to use the virtual mouse of
your screen-reader to activate and those represent a lack of
accessibility. but those who design sites often know little, if
anything, about accessibility. And even if a site is accessible, if a
bnlind person doesn't know how to find things on sites efficiently,
they may waste a lot of time doing unnecessary things. For example,
they may tab through item after item on a site when using the find
command might allow them to find something very quickly. Continuing
with the Internet as an example, to use the Internet to anywhere near
it's potential in terms of efficiency, you have to know how to work
with sites you haven't worked with before. A good deal of my Internet
use is doing google searches and looking up information on sites I've
never used or seldom used. Some people micromemorize sites, for
example, memorizing that this or that is the second heading level 4 on
a site. You simply can't use the Inter
net well in terms of working with large numbers of sites if you rely on such micromemorization. If people want to micromemorize this or that item on a site they use constantly, I'm not telling them that they shouldn't. but when I see people engage in such micromemorization, it raises the question for me if they know how to work with sites efficiently in general.



When I'm on a site I use often and I want to find the editorial link, I use the find command and search for the link. If it were a heading and I could get there efficiently by moving by heading, I might do that. but it isn't. the find command is the only way I know to find the link efficiently on the site.



Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Katty Geltmeyer <mailto:kattygeltmeyer@...>

Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2016 4:15 AM

To: nvda@groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?



Gene, you are right, I understand your point. But it would be helpful if someone tells you what are the changes, so that you can explore a website or programme more efficiently. I don't have an overview of pages etc. so, I go exploring. But this takes some time. And if buttons change behaviour, I mean if you could activate them by using space bar or enter in the past and now they need some other way to be activated, that's a bit a hassle if no one could assist you.



Best, Katty



Van: Gene [mailto:gsasner@...]
Verzonden: dinsdag 19 april 2016 10:41
Aan: nvda@groups.io
Onderwerp: Re: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?



That is true in some cases but in many, that is a real exaggeration and reflects users not understanding how to learn the structure of a program or not understanding a new structure such as ribbons.



Lots of times, if a web site changes, what is desired can easily be found on the site by using the find command. For example, from time to time, Send Space has changed the way you begin a file download. There might have been a link that says download, for example. That link was changed to a button but if someone is used to using the links list, an artificial structure that separates them from the page and doesn't know how to explore the page itself, they may well have considerable difficulty and may need help to find out how to download again. This does not need to be a crisis. All that need be done is to go to the top of the page and use your screen-reader's find command to search the page for the word download. You will immediately see that download is now a button and you can then simply type the letter b when a Send Space download page opens to move to it.

If a program changes its structure, such as by adopting ribbons, if you know how to look through ribbons, you can look through them and, if desired, make notes of the key combinations to perform certain functions. This is similar to what you might do in a menu program. Far too many blind people are taught to do things by rote and so any change may be a crisis. In many cases, if taught properly, it can be just an inconvenience.



I'm not saying there aren't real problems such as when a program becomes inaccessible or much less so with a new release. But I am saying that many problems could be reduced to inconveniences if blind people were taught to conceptualize what they are doing and not to take certain actions by rote without real understanding of how something is structured and how to learn programs by trying different ways of learning about it such as looking through menus or ribbons.



Some blind people will find such ways of conceptualizing and learning difficult and some will find them easy and some in between. But many people are never taught such things so easy, difficult or in between for them, they never get to find out.



Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Katty Geltmeyer <mailto:kattygeltmeyer@...>

Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2016 2:47 AM

To: nvda@groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?



For seeing persons, compare the situation of the blind with the following: you are used to go to your local supermarket, and nearly to find everything you need on the shelves by almost walking asleep (you know what to find where). At a certain day, everything is changed: the name of the store, the products inside, the position of the products on the shelves, the shelves themselves, the several departments (bakery, vegetables, …) everything you can think of is changed. Unfortunately you are forced to wander through the store without having an overview of the store, no scanning of the shelves with the eyes, … After a mornth, you are used to the new store and products and their place in the store, everything changes again and you can start all over again. Isn't this a nightmare? Well, that's what the blind are forced to do every time a website, a programme, … changes.



In fact, I should post this to the accessible googlegroup.



Best, Katty



Van: n8mnx@... [mailto:n8mnx@...]
Verzonden: dinsdag 19 april 2016 4:14
Aan: nvda@groups.io
Onderwerp: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?



I think that maybe blind people are not against change for the
sake of change but it's the fear that their old favorite programs
won't work and how accessable will the new os be or how accessable
will the new programs be. I to did like windows xp with outlook
express and when I was concitering upgrading to windows 7 I was
hesitent because I did not know what email program would work and be
accessable. I did of course upgrade and used windows live mail and
when I began to have issues with it I went to thunderbird and I now
have windows 10 and I still use thunderbird. I think that the reason
that we all like outlook express isthat it is just a simple email
program with nobells and whistles like calendars or features that we
don't need or can't use. Outlook express will always be the best
email program but we have adapted to other programs but that does not
mean that we are happy with them we just adjust. We all don't like
change but we can and do adapt but we don't like it
. With new versions of windows there may be features that we don't need or want or we can't use but we use what we want to use or what we can use. I know that every one has their screen reader of choice and they think that theirs is the best I use nvdathen there is the issue of winamp it's no longer supported but I still have not been convinced that there is a better program so I will just keep using it. We should upgrade if we need to but we chould not have change fordced upon us this should be our choice. Think of the Omish people they don't have cars they still use horse and buggies that is their choice and so is somones choice if they still use windows xp if they are willing to take the risk thats their choice and not ours.
Brian Sackrider

On 4/18/2016 9:48 PM, Pauline Smith wrote:

Change is hard, but we must adjust. I wasn't fond of Win 7 when I got this computer, but I have adjusted. When a colleague told me how to find and put terms into the search bar by hitting the Start button, much frustration has been saved. Now, I'm comtemplating doing the upgrade to Win 10. I just wanted to make sure I knew what I was getting into before doing it.

Pauline

On 4/18/2016 6:27 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:

Rosemarie Chavarria wrote, in regard to a friend of hers who insisted on staying with WinXP, "I asked him why and his answer was that it was simpler to work with."

And I can't count the times I've heard this, about way more than Windows, and thought, "No, it's not easier to work with - it's what you're used to." Win XP was an OS I loved and Microsoft has the annoying habit of alternating "good" and "bad" versions of Windows. The number of things that require manual intervention from the user in XP is huge compared to later versions, particularly Windows 7 forward. And, when it comes down to it, even in the "ugly" versions of Windows the similarities to their predecessors is at least as strong as the differences, but the differences are where people are required to learn something new.

David Moore's comments regarding those who live to be 100, or near it, really resonate with me. My grandmother died in the 1990s and was in her 90s at the time. When I think about what technology was at her birth and the amount of change she and her age cohort had to go through I am amazed. I don't know if I could be as flexible as they were. While the pace of change has picked up, particularly in the cyber world, the majority of changes I've lived through (I'm just short of 54 years old) feel to me much more like refinements on very familiar themes rather than complete divergences from what came before. That was not true for my grandparents at all, and my parents experienced more revolutionary changes than I have, too. I think my only two revolutions were the introduction of the personal computer and the ascendance of the internet.

Brian








Re: Requesting "The Qube" DownLoad Link

Rosemarie Chavarria
 

It's a twitter client.

-----Original Message-----
From: Ron Canazzi [mailto:aa2vm@...]
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2016 9:24 PM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Requesting "The Qube" DownLoad Link

Hi Group,

Forgive me for being ignorant, but just what kind of program is the Cube?


On 4/19/2016 6:14 PM, David Moore wrote:
You can just install the new version right over the old version LOL! If
that does not work, then you can uninstall the old version. One thing I
forgot to mansion! You have to go to the short cut on the desktop and press
applications key and up arrow to properties and find the check box that says
run as administrator and check that in order for the Qube to work. That is
very important. Take care all.


From: Jamie Prater
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2016 6:09 PM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Requesting "The Qube" DownLoad Link

Do you have to uninstall the current version of the cube or can you
install like other software?



From: David Moore [mailto:jesusloves1966@...]
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2016 4:50 PM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Requesting "The Qube" DownLoad Link



Hello James and all,

Here is the link to the Qube web site to get the Qube for free. Works
great all the way through win10. Here is the link.

http://theqube.oire.org/29





From: James Robinson

Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2016 11:26 AM

To: nvda@groups.io

Subject: [nvda] Requesting "The Qube" DownLoad Link



Hello David Moore!



I would like to have the link to get the Qube. Thanks for your help.


Sincerely,


James Arthur Robinson, Sr., President
Jardata Corporation


--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


locked Re: why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?

Rosemarie Chavarria
 

Hi, Arleen,

I'm not talking about people who have learning disabilities. I'm talking about people who don't want to try learning new things and they don't have difficulties in learning. I'm very proud of my friend in Main for getting her computer from that place in Texas. Her XP computer was ready to bite the dust so I think she did the right thing.

Rosemarie

-----Original Message-----
From: Arlene [mailto:nedster66@...]
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2016 5:33 PM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?

Hi Sean, do you have a learning difficulty? If you do then that makes scence if you don’t want to change do you have troubles learning new windows tasks? If you found xp easy to learn then that makes scence why you don’t want to leave it and can't afford a new computer. If you feel you like to stay where you are. That's great. But if you need to change and learn a new system you may have to listen and listen to the audio teaching programs until the mp3 files wear out. Loll!

-----Original Message-----
From: Shaun Everiss [mailto:@smeveriss]
Sent: April-19-16 1:45 PM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?

I agree, if there was some sort of interface program for windows where you updated the core but chose what interface you used for everything from start menu to explorer to menus, to desktop even if that meant advanced interface features would not be available including ms accounts, apps, etc then I would have no issue changing.
I want the system to be as simple as possible for my daily tasks.
And while the newer the system the moresimple it is for normals for us and disabled in general its reversed.



On 19/04/2016 9:15 p.m., Katty Geltmeyer wrote:
Gene, you are right, I understand your point. But it would be helpful if someone tells you what are the changes, so that you can explore a website or programme more efficiently. I don't have an overview of pages etc. so, I go exploring. But this takes some time. And if buttons change behaviour, I mean if you could activate them by using space bar or enter in the past and now they need some other way to be activated, that's a bit a hassle if no one could assist you.



Best, Katty



Van: Gene [mailto:gsasner@...]
Verzonden: dinsdag 19 april 2016 10:41
Aan: nvda@groups.io
Onderwerp: Re: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?



That is true in some cases but in many, that is a real exaggeration and reflects users not understanding how to learn the structure of a program or not understanding a new structure such as ribbons.



Lots of times, if a web site changes, what is desired can easily be found on the site by using the find command. For example, from time to time, Send Space has changed the way you begin a file download. There might have been a link that says download, for example. That link was changed to a button but if someone is used to using the links list, an artificial structure that separates them from the page and doesn't know how to explore the page itself, they may well have considerable difficulty and may need help to find out how to download again. This does not need to be a crisis. All that need be done is to go to the top of the page and use your screen-reader's find command to search the page for the word download. You will immediately see that download is now a button and you can then simply type the letter b when a Send Space download page opens to move to it.

If a program changes its structure, such as by adopting ribbons, if you know how to look through ribbons, you can look through them and, if desired, make notes of the key combinations to perform certain functions. This is similar to what you might do in a menu program. Far too many blind people are taught to do things by rote and so any change may be a crisis. In many cases, if taught properly, it can be just an inconvenience.



I'm not saying there aren't real problems such as when a program becomes inaccessible or much less so with a new release. But I am saying that many problems could be reduced to inconveniences if blind people were taught to conceptualize what they are doing and not to take certain actions by rote without real understanding of how something is structured and how to learn programs by trying different ways of learning about it such as looking through menus or ribbons.



Some blind people will find such ways of conceptualizing and learning difficult and some will find them easy and some in between. But many people are never taught such things so easy, difficult or in between for them, they never get to find out.



Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Katty Geltmeyer <mailto:kattygeltmeyer@...>

Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2016 2:47 AM

To: nvda@groups.io <mailto:nvda@groups.io>

Subject: Re: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?



For seeing persons, compare the situation of the blind with the following: you are used to go to your local supermarket, and nearly to find everything you need on the shelves by almost walking asleep (you know what to find where). At a certain day, everything is changed: the name of the store, the products inside, the position of the products on the shelves, the shelves themselves, the several departments (bakery, vegetables, …) everything you can think of is changed. Unfortunately you are forced to wander through the store without having an overview of the store, no scanning of the shelves with the eyes, … After a mornth, you are used to the new store and products and their place in the store, everything changes again and you can start all over again. Isn't this a nightmare? Well, that's what the blind are forced to do every time a website, a programme, … changes.



In fact, I should post this to the accessible googlegroup.



Best, Katty



Van: n8mnx@... [mailto:n8mnx@...]
Verzonden: dinsdag 19 april 2016 4:14
Aan: nvda@groups.io
Onderwerp: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?



I think that maybe blind people are not against change for the
sake of change but it's the fear that their old favorite programs
won't work and how accessable will the new os be or how accessable
will the new programs be. I to did like windows xp with outlook
express and when I was concitering upgrading to windows 7 I was
hesitent because I did not know what email program would work and be
accessable. I did of course upgrade and used windows live mail and
when I began to have issues with it I went to thunderbird and I now
have windows 10 and I still use thunderbird. I think that the reason
that we all like outlook express isthat it is just a simple email
program with nobells and whistles like calendars or features that we
don't need or can't use. Outlook express will always be the best
email program but we have adapted to other programs but that does not
mean that we are happy with them we just adjust. We all don't like
change but we can and do adapt but we don't like it
. With new versions of windows there may be features that we don't need or want or we can't use but we use what we want to use or what we can use. I know that every one has their screen reader of choice and they think that theirs is the best I use nvdathen there is the issue of winamp it's no longer supported but I still have not been convinced that there is a better program so I will just keep using it. We should upgrade if we need to but we chould not have change fordced upon us this should be our choice. Think of the Omish people they don't have cars they still use horse and buggies that is their choice and so is somones choice if they still use windows xp if they are willing to take the risk thats their choice and not ours.
Brian Sackrider

On 4/18/2016 9:48 PM, Pauline Smith wrote:

Change is hard, but we must adjust. I wasn't fond of Win 7 when I got this computer, but I have adjusted. When a colleague told me how to find and put terms into the search bar by hitting the Start button, much frustration has been saved. Now, I'm comtemplating doing the upgrade to Win 10. I just wanted to make sure I knew what I was getting into before doing it.

Pauline

On 4/18/2016 6:27 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:

Rosemarie Chavarria wrote, in regard to a friend of hers who insisted on staying with WinXP, "I asked him why and his answer was that it was simpler to work with."

And I can't count the times I've heard this, about way more than Windows, and thought, "No, it's not easier to work with - it's what you're used to." Win XP was an OS I loved and Microsoft has the annoying habit of alternating "good" and "bad" versions of Windows. The number of things that require manual intervention from the user in XP is huge compared to later versions, particularly Windows 7 forward. And, when it comes down to it, even in the "ugly" versions of Windows the similarities to their predecessors is at least as strong as the differences, but the differences are where people are required to learn something new.

David Moore's comments regarding those who live to be 100, or near it, really resonate with me. My grandmother died in the 1990s and was in her 90s at the time. When I think about what technology was at her birth and the amount of change she and her age cohort had to go through I am amazed. I don't know if I could be as flexible as they were. While the pace of change has picked up, particularly in the cyber world, the majority of changes I've lived through (I'm just short of 54 years old) feel to me much more like refinements on very familiar themes rather than complete divergences from what came before. That was not true for my grandparents at all, and my parents experienced more revolutionary changes than I have, too. I think my only two revolutions were the introduction of the personal computer and the ascendance of the internet.

Brian








Re: Requesting "The Qube" DownLoad Link

Ron Canazzi
 

Hi Group,

Forgive me for being ignorant, but just what kind of program is the Cube?

On 4/19/2016 6:14 PM, David Moore wrote:
You can just install the new version right over the old version LOL! If that does not work, then you can uninstall the old version. One thing I forgot to mansion! You have to go to the short cut on the desktop and press applications key and up arrow to properties and find the check box that says run as administrator and check that in order for the Qube to work. That is very important. Take care all.


From: Jamie Prater
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2016 6:09 PM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Requesting "The Qube" DownLoad Link

Do you have to uninstall the current version of the cube or can you install like other software?


From: David Moore [mailto:jesusloves1966@...]
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2016 4:50 PM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Requesting "The Qube" DownLoad Link


Hello James and all,

Here is the link to the Qube web site to get the Qube for free. Works great all the way through win10. Here is the link.

http://theqube.oire.org/29



From: James Robinson

Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2016 11:26 AM

To: nvda@groups.io

Subject: [nvda] Requesting "The Qube" DownLoad Link


Hello David Moore!


I would like to have the link to get the Qube. Thanks for your help.


Sincerely,


James Arthur Robinson, Sr., President
Jardata Corporation


--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


locked Re: This is the moderator speaking: Question Regarding Eloquence for NVDA from Code Factory

Arlene
 

Wow! That old thing called the floppy disk. Those huge plastic things. Those were a thing of the past!

-----Original Message-----
From: David Moore [mailto:jesusloves1966@...]
Sent: April-19-16 9:06 PM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] This is the moderator speaking: Question Regarding Eloquence for NVDA from Code Factory

Hi Rosemarie,
You got it. I used Word perfect a lot as well, and I remember copying one
floppy to another floppy, because the computer had two floppy drives side by
side LOL!

-----Original Message-----
From: Rosemarie Chavarria
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2016 11:53 PM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] This is the moderator speaking: Question Regarding
Eloquence for NVDA from Code Factory

Hi, David,

I remember those dos days too. I went to a program called ROP which stands
for regional occupation program and we used those old computers too. I
remember those old 7-inch floppy disks. One had a program called word rap
and the one on the right drive had the actual program of a word processing
program on it. That was when the drives were side by side instead of one on
top and one on the bottom.

Rosemarie

-----Original Message-----
From: David Moore [mailto:jesusloves1966@...]
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2016 8:49 PM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] This is the moderator speaking: Question Regarding
Eloquence for NVDA from Code Factory

Hi guys,
I remember those good-old days well. When I went to college in the 80's, I
had the 720 KB floppy disks. I had DOS, a synthesizer, and a Pascal
interpreter on one of those floppies. I remember when Ohio State got a few
IBM AT's with a 1 meg hard drive, and one could put everything imaginable on
it. MS then thought that one would never need more than a few meg for
everything they had. Windows OS sure changed all of that for sure. Also,
computer programs were very concise then. The programmer tried to have as
few lines of code as possible so that space would be conserved. Now, because
of all the room we have on our systems, programmers have many lines of code
that is not necessary. Teachers who said to write only one page made it much
harder for me to summarize everything in that little bit of space. I would
imagine that it was harder for programmers in the 80's to summarize
everything in as few lines of code as possible. We do have way more room
than we need. Also, videos and audio files could be made much more
compressed if people did not expect HD video quality and the best audio
quality. You brought back a lot of good memories. Jobs for the blind were
plentiful in computers in the dos days, because everything was text and
command driven instead of a five year old being able to point at an icon and
click. Many more people can use the computer, but it has made it harder for
the blind to use new computers. It seems like technology is trying to make
everything easier and easier for the sighted, but at the same time, it makes
it much more adventurous for the blind. But there is a lot of good that has
come out of this. Artificial intelligence will enable the blind to do many
tasks in the next ten years like driving a car. We have to look at the glass
half full and look toward a totally different future than we had in the
80's. Thanks for some good memories. Take care.


-----Original Message-----
From: Shaun Everiss
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2016 8:41 PM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] This is the moderator speaking: Question Regarding
Eloquence for NVDA from Code Factory

To be honest you'd be surprised what I had back in the day.
While I didn't use windows 3.11 or anything, I had wordprefect 5.1 though
didn't use it much as I had a keynote gold 1850 and used keysoft
1 and mastertouch 1 for my work.
I had a 80mb drive then when that died a 60 mb drive.
I was able with drivespace from dos 6.22 to compress the drive to round
110-130mb and then ran compressed.
On that drive, I had wordprefect with documents, dos 6.22, a coppy of norton
utilities 7 later upgraded to 8.
quarterdec expanded memmory manager version 8.0, several games and
interpriters to run them, at least 5mb worth of utilities some made in house
by someone I knew at the time.
And I still had space.
I knew friends that had old office 4, works version 2, several games, in
fact most of the 500mb drive they had was games, both for windows and dos.
a cd drive, and soundblaster etc.
What you must remember is that 125mb was actually quite a lot.
The biggest programs were never more than 10-20mb however, remember that
dialup stuff means that 1-5mb was rather big in those days.
Your os was on 3 disks and if you had the suplimentals 4.
My toshiba had its own utilities disk and origional os disk.
all 1.44mb ofcause wordperfect came on 6 720kb disks.
2 disk for the printer.
1 for the dictionary.
1 for the printer program.
1 for the wordperfect program itself.
1 for the graphics components
1 for the installers, utilities, graphics drivers, basic graphics files,
text driver, and fonts.
The installer also created all the network files itself, modified My
compressed 110mb drive actually had a lot on it though 95% of it was for fun
I even had x tree gold.
The thing with the modern system is that everything got bigger once windows
became its own opperating system and not a dumb dos shell.
True programs were written for it but even so.
Up to windows 98 in fact windows did still use a stripped down version of
dos, each version having less and less.
Windows me had a really stripped down version of dos that with a little
hacking you could be made to access.
From windows 2000 on windows was its own os though the nt based os we all
know and love now existed it was for network users.
configurations etc.
The major advantage with the 9x systems was you could run just about
everything or anything and the system would not care.
Ofcause you didn't have the driver library for things like flash drives and
the like and usb support in fact didn't exist when win95 came out but even
so I kinda liked it.
No intercepts, and no real issue.
Later on with all the security protection etc that came with windows, you
got a lot of broken chains and issues with screenreaders running together
and uninstalling and the like.
You could do it if you knew what you were doing but it was unstable.
If you screwed up, then you could redo the chain but you would have to
reload the display and start again and then or reformat which is what
happened whenever I forgot to run things in the right order or at once which
was easy to do hotkeys and all.
With the dcm mirror system you can't do this anymore because its all library
driven.
And with uia now you definately can not cause any real issue.
That may actually be one change and only a reason that would get me to
upgrade to another os though the mirror system works just fine.
Ofcause with nvda and things that directly access the components of the
windows os all those off screen models and the like are bypassed though you
can loose some vertual modes and the stuff for some of the access things
have changed.
Programs are relying on web components for starters and thats where it is
at.
Eventually we may se an os based on the web and as long as that is
accessible it may not be that bad.



On 20/04/2016 11:41 a.m., David Moore wrote:
Hi,
With a 125 meg hard drive, how can you even have any programs or
documents on there? Do you back them up to a floppy disk?


From: Carlos
Sent: Monday, April 18, 2016 7:11 PM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] This is the moderator speaking: Question Regarding
Eloquence for NVDA from Code Factory

Hello Again:

A description of my PC:



*Packard Bell Legend V

*386SX 16MHz Processor

*125 Megabyte Hard Disk

*EGA Video Card

*14 Inch Monitor

*Sound Blaster I Sound Card

*101 PS/2 Keyboard/Logitech Three Button Mouse w/Rubber Ball on
Bottom


*Windows 3.11/MS DOS 6.22

*Norton Commander 5, Microsoft Office Professional

*NVDA 5.x




Long live the 90's!!!


*


On 4/18/2016 3:27 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:

Rosemarie Chavarria wrote, in regard to a friend of hers who
insisted on staying with WinXP, "I asked him why and his answer was
that it was simpler to work with."

And I can't count the times I've heard this, about way more than
Windows, and thought, "No, it's not easier to work with - it's what
you're used to." Win XP was an OS I loved and Microsoft has the
annoying habit of alternating "good" and "bad" versions of Windows.
The number of things that require manual intervention from the user in
XP is huge compared to later versions, particularly Windows 7 forward.
And, when it comes down to it, even in the "ugly" versions of Windows
the similarities to their predecessors is at least as strong as the
differences, but the differences are where people are required to learn
something new.

David Moore's comments regarding those who live to be 100, or near
it, really resonate with me. My grandmother died in the 1990s and was
in her 90s at the time. When I think about what technology was at her
birth and the amount of change she and her age cohort had to go through I
am amazed.
I don't know if I could be as flexible as they were. While the pace
of change has picked up, particularly in the cyber world, the majority
of changes I've lived through (I'm just short of 54 years old) feel to
me much more like refinements on very familiar themes rather than
complete divergences from what came before. That was not true for my
grandparents at all, and my parents experienced more revolutionary
changes than I have, too. I think my only two revolutions were the
introduction of the personal computer and the ascendance of the internet.

Brian



locked Re: why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?

Arlene
 

Well, Again I say. if you are not using it to surf the net. You'll do fine if you are using it for playing games that don’t require the web. Or if you are using it for audio editing it's okay. or do you also use outlook express? If you strictly use it for checking mail then all the world to you using xp!

-----Original Message-----
From: Shaun Everiss [mailto:@smeveriss]
Sent: April-19-16 5:51 PM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?

I agree.
And while I could do that there would still have to be the reason what for?
I could take out a loan on a braille display but paying it back, hmm
will take a long time and what for?
For me there needs to be a need or purpose or advancement.
Currently bar security there is little need and with where I am right
now no advancement in fact there hasn't been much since xp bar everyone
went 7.
No one went 8 and a few 10 but for me there is still no advancement at
least right now never say never.
I do hope before I get to old I will find what I am looking for, but
till then I still search.
One day I will find it, and if not well we will see.
I have time to wait for it and time to look at least for the next 10
years or so.



On 20/04/2016 12:37 p.m., David Moore wrote:
In the 1970's when the state did not do much for the blind, they took
out loans or did what they had to do to get equipment to help them.
Where there is a will, there is a way.


-----Original Message----- From: Lenron
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2016 8:18 PM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so
against change?

It doesn't always cost so much to upgrade. I know people started out
on win 7 went to 10 on older systems and they are doing fine. People
make all kinds of excuses for why not to do something. I would say if
you wish to learn it to keep up, if not don't. Moving to a touch
screen device or at least giving it a shot is a good thing for a
phone. I plan to learn as much as I can about everything tech for
years to come and anything else I can get a hold of. I refuse to be
the guy 60 years down the line complaining about how something is not
what it use to be.

On 4/19/16, David Moore <jesusloves1966@...> wrote:
Traci, my wife, is sighted and she had to do that with two of our
favorite
super markets. they totally changed, but she did not complain, she kept
going and it took her three or four times to find what she was used to
running to before. It took her 30 more minutes to shop those four
times. She
just sucked it up and relearned it. That is what the blind need to do
instead of complaining and whining.


From: Katty Geltmeyer
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2016 3:47 AM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so
against
change?

For seeing persons, compare the situation of the blind with the
following:
you are used to go to your local supermarket, and nearly to find
everything
you need on the shelves by almost walking asleep (you know what to find
where). At a certain day, everything is changed: the name of the
store, the
products inside, the position of the products on the shelves, the shelves
themselves, the several departments (bakery, vegetables, …) everything
you
can think of is changed. Unfortunately you are forced to wander
through the
store without having an overview of the store, no scanning of the shelves
with the eyes, … After a mornth, you are used to the new store and
products
and their place in the store, everything changes again and you can
start all
over again. Isn't this a nightmare? Well, that's what the blind are
forced
to do every time a website, a programme, … changes.



In fact, I should post this to the accessible googlegroup.



Best, Katty



Van: n8mnx@... [mailto:n8mnx@...]
Verzonden: dinsdag 19 april 2016 4:14
Aan: nvda@groups.io
Onderwerp: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against
change?



I think that maybe blind people are not against change for the
sake of
change but it's the fear that their old favorite programs won't work
and how
accessable will the new os be or how accessable will the new programs
be. I
to did like windows xp with outlook express and when I was concitering
upgrading to windows 7 I was hesitent because I did not know what email
program would work and be accessable. I did of course upgrade and used
windows live mail and when I began to have issues with it I went to
thunderbird and I now have windows 10 and I still use thunderbird. I
think
that the reason that we all like outlook express isthat it is just a
simple
email program with nobells and whistles like calendars or features
that we
don't need or can't use. Outlook express will always be the best email
program but we have adapted to other programs but that does not mean
that we
are happy with them we just adjust. We all don't like change but we
can and
do adapt but we don't like it. With new versions of windows there may be
features that we don't need or want or we can't use but we use what we
want
to use or what we can use. I know that every one has their screen
reader of
choice and they think that theirs is the best I use nvdathen there is the
issue of winamp it's no longer supported but I still have not been
convinced
that there is a better program so I will just keep using it. We should
upgrade if we need to but we chould not have change fordced upon us this
should be our choice. Think of the Omish people they don't have cars
they
still use horse and buggies that is their choice and so is somones
choice if
they still use windows xp if they are willing to take the risk thats
their
choice and not ours.
Brian Sackrider

On 4/18/2016 9:48 PM, Pauline Smith wrote:

Change is hard, but we must adjust. I wasn't fond of Win 7 when I got
this computer, but I have adjusted. When a colleague told me how to find
and put terms into the search bar by hitting the Start button, much
frustration has been saved. Now, I'm comtemplating doing the upgrade
to Win
10. I just wanted to make sure I knew what I was getting into before
doing
it.

Pauline



On 4/18/2016 6:27 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:

Rosemarie Chavarria wrote, in regard to a friend of hers who
insisted on
staying with WinXP, "I asked him why and his answer was that it was
simpler
to work with."

And I can't count the times I've heard this, about way more than
Windows, and thought, "No, it's not easier to work with - it's what
you're
used to." Win XP was an OS I loved and Microsoft has the annoying
habit of
alternating "good" and "bad" versions of Windows. The number of
things that
require manual intervention from the user in XP is huge compared to later
versions, particularly Windows 7 forward. And, when it comes down to it,
even in the "ugly" versions of Windows the similarities to their
predecessors is at least as strong as the differences, but the
differences
are where people are required to learn something new.

David Moore's comments regarding those who live to be 100, or near
it,
really resonate with me. My grandmother died in the 1990s and was in her
90s at the time. When I think about what technology was at her birth
and the
amount of change she and her age cohort had to go through I am amazed. I
don't know if I could be as flexible as they were. While the pace of
change
has picked up, particularly in the cyber world, the majority of
changes I've
lived through (I'm just short of 54 years old) feel to me much more like
refinements on very familiar themes rather than complete divergences from
what came before. That was not true for my grandparents at all, and my
parents experienced more revolutionary changes than I have, too. I
think my
only two revolutions were the introduction of the personal computer
and the
ascendance of the internet.

Brian







locked Re: why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?

Rosemarie Chavarria
 

Hi, Arleen,

You could also use XP for word processing too. You don't have to go on the internet to do that.

Rosemarie

-----Original Message-----
From: Arlene [mailto:nedster66@...]
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2016 9:14 PM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?

Well, if you use xp. Just so you know. some sites on IE 9 or whatever xp uses. Cant be accessible. With xp if you don’t crues the web you'll be fine. If you do it a lot with xp its almost impossible. If you use it for games and audio editing then again you'll be fine. If you have a win 7 as another system you can still crues the web with no problems.

-----Original Message-----
From: Shaun Everiss [mailto:@smeveriss]
Sent: April-19-16 5:55 PM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?

I agree, I am not here by choice.
While I could afford a change up, its more a question of exactly what I would need it for.
And I can't get every change.
maybe 1 or 2 changes every 5-10 years in my current situation.
But being without a job etc, changing is at the end of a long list though if and when it happens, it happens.
Even if that means I get a machine for my old games, and audio stuff that is offline and runs xp or 7 and then have another machine that handles the web, and email who knows.
Not thought passed that.



On 20/04/2016 12:08 p.m., Arlene wrote:
No it doesn’t. Also too, Yes blind people do wine over change.But, We all need to take into consideration their walk of life. If they can’t afford new equipment for many reasons. Yes they should update if something like xp is no longer usable on the web. Also, most blind people do need to quit wining! It makes it look bad for those who want to change but can’t afford it! I will change if I have to. I’m saving money to get myself a new hard drive so I can update to ten if I have to. I will learn ten if I have to. Don’t worry I’m not wining! Loll!



From: David Moore [mailto:jesusloves1966@...]
Sent: April-19-16 3:51 PM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?



Hi Jene,

That is exactly what I do. It sure does not hurt to have two screen readers at your finger tips either.

You can have JAWS as a 40 minute demo mode just in case, and JAWS users can get NVDA for free. You should not be attacked if you use two screen readers LOL! That type of memorizing will not get you around on many sites you have never been on. Take care all.





From: Gene <mailto:gsasner@...>

Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2016 6:07 AM

To: nvda@groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?



I'm not sure what you have in mind by someone telling you. I'll discuss the Internet in the rest of this message.



There are certain structures that you have to use the virtual mouse of
your screen-reader to activate and those represent a lack of
accessibility. but those who design sites often know little, if
anything, about accessibility. And even if a site is accessible, if a
bnlind person doesn't know how to find things on sites efficiently,
they may waste a lot of time doing unnecessary things. For example,
they may tab through item after item on a site when using the find
command might allow them to find something very quickly. Continuing
with the Internet as an example, to use the Internet to anywhere near
it's potential in terms of efficiency, you have to know how to work
with sites you haven't worked with before. A good deal of my Internet
use is doing google searches and looking up information on sites I've
never used or seldom used. Some people micromemorize sites, for
example, memorizing that this or that is the second heading level 4 on
a site. You simply can't use the Inter
net well in terms of working with large numbers of sites if you rely on such micromemorization. If people want to micromemorize this or that item on a site they use constantly, I'm not telling them that they shouldn't. but when I see people engage in such micromemorization, it raises the question for me if they know how to work with sites efficiently in general.



When I'm on a site I use often and I want to find the editorial link, I use the find command and search for the link. If it were a heading and I could get there efficiently by moving by heading, I might do that. but it isn't. the find command is the only way I know to find the link efficiently on the site.



Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Katty Geltmeyer <mailto:kattygeltmeyer@...>

Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2016 4:15 AM

To: nvda@groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?



Gene, you are right, I understand your point. But it would be helpful if someone tells you what are the changes, so that you can explore a website or programme more efficiently. I don't have an overview of pages etc. so, I go exploring. But this takes some time. And if buttons change behaviour, I mean if you could activate them by using space bar or enter in the past and now they need some other way to be activated, that's a bit a hassle if no one could assist you.



Best, Katty



Van: Gene [mailto:gsasner@...]
Verzonden: dinsdag 19 april 2016 10:41
Aan: nvda@groups.io
Onderwerp: Re: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?



That is true in some cases but in many, that is a real exaggeration and reflects users not understanding how to learn the structure of a program or not understanding a new structure such as ribbons.



Lots of times, if a web site changes, what is desired can easily be found on the site by using the find command. For example, from time to time, Send Space has changed the way you begin a file download. There might have been a link that says download, for example. That link was changed to a button but if someone is used to using the links list, an artificial structure that separates them from the page and doesn't know how to explore the page itself, they may well have considerable difficulty and may need help to find out how to download again. This does not need to be a crisis. All that need be done is to go to the top of the page and use your screen-reader's find command to search the page for the word download. You will immediately see that download is now a button and you can then simply type the letter b when a Send Space download page opens to move to it.

If a program changes its structure, such as by adopting ribbons, if you know how to look through ribbons, you can look through them and, if desired, make notes of the key combinations to perform certain functions. This is similar to what you might do in a menu program. Far too many blind people are taught to do things by rote and so any change may be a crisis. In many cases, if taught properly, it can be just an inconvenience.



I'm not saying there aren't real problems such as when a program becomes inaccessible or much less so with a new release. But I am saying that many problems could be reduced to inconveniences if blind people were taught to conceptualize what they are doing and not to take certain actions by rote without real understanding of how something is structured and how to learn programs by trying different ways of learning about it such as looking through menus or ribbons.



Some blind people will find such ways of conceptualizing and learning difficult and some will find them easy and some in between. But many people are never taught such things so easy, difficult or in between for them, they never get to find out.



Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Katty Geltmeyer <mailto:kattygeltmeyer@...>

Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2016 2:47 AM

To: nvda@groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?



For seeing persons, compare the situation of the blind with the following: you are used to go to your local supermarket, and nearly to find everything you need on the shelves by almost walking asleep (you know what to find where). At a certain day, everything is changed: the name of the store, the products inside, the position of the products on the shelves, the shelves themselves, the several departments (bakery, vegetables, …) everything you can think of is changed. Unfortunately you are forced to wander through the store without having an overview of the store, no scanning of the shelves with the eyes, … After a mornth, you are used to the new store and products and their place in the store, everything changes again and you can start all over again. Isn't this a nightmare? Well, that's what the blind are forced to do every time a website, a programme, … changes.



In fact, I should post this to the accessible googlegroup.



Best, Katty



Van: n8mnx@... [mailto:n8mnx@...]
Verzonden: dinsdag 19 april 2016 4:14
Aan: nvda@groups.io
Onderwerp: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?



I think that maybe blind people are not against change for the
sake of change but it's the fear that their old favorite programs
won't work and how accessable will the new os be or how accessable
will the new programs be. I to did like windows xp with outlook
express and when I was concitering upgrading to windows 7 I was
hesitent because I did not know what email program would work and be
accessable. I did of course upgrade and used windows live mail and
when I began to have issues with it I went to thunderbird and I now
have windows 10 and I still use thunderbird. I think that the reason
that we all like outlook express isthat it is just a simple email
program with nobells and whistles like calendars or features that we
don't need or can't use. Outlook express will always be the best
email program but we have adapted to other programs but that does not
mean that we are happy with them we just adjust. We all don't like
change but we can and do adapt but we don't like it
. With new versions of windows there may be features that we don't need or want or we can't use but we use what we want to use or what we can use. I know that every one has their screen reader of choice and they think that theirs is the best I use nvdathen there is the issue of winamp it's no longer supported but I still have not been convinced that there is a better program so I will just keep using it. We should upgrade if we need to but we chould not have change fordced upon us this should be our choice. Think of the Omish people they don't have cars they still use horse and buggies that is their choice and so is somones choice if they still use windows xp if they are willing to take the risk thats their choice and not ours.
Brian Sackrider

On 4/18/2016 9:48 PM, Pauline Smith wrote:

Change is hard, but we must adjust. I wasn't fond of Win 7 when I got this computer, but I have adjusted. When a colleague told me how to find and put terms into the search bar by hitting the Start button, much frustration has been saved. Now, I'm comtemplating doing the upgrade to Win 10. I just wanted to make sure I knew what I was getting into before doing it.

Pauline

On 4/18/2016 6:27 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:

Rosemarie Chavarria wrote, in regard to a friend of hers who insisted on staying with WinXP, "I asked him why and his answer was that it was simpler to work with."

And I can't count the times I've heard this, about way more than Windows, and thought, "No, it's not easier to work with - it's what you're used to." Win XP was an OS I loved and Microsoft has the annoying habit of alternating "good" and "bad" versions of Windows. The number of things that require manual intervention from the user in XP is huge compared to later versions, particularly Windows 7 forward. And, when it comes down to it, even in the "ugly" versions of Windows the similarities to their predecessors is at least as strong as the differences, but the differences are where people are required to learn something new.

David Moore's comments regarding those who live to be 100, or near it, really resonate with me. My grandmother died in the 1990s and was in her 90s at the time. When I think about what technology was at her birth and the amount of change she and her age cohort had to go through I am amazed. I don't know if I could be as flexible as they were. While the pace of change has picked up, particularly in the cyber world, the majority of changes I've lived through (I'm just short of 54 years old) feel to me much more like refinements on very familiar themes rather than complete divergences from what came before. That was not true for my grandparents at all, and my parents experienced more revolutionary changes than I have, too. I think my only two revolutions were the introduction of the personal computer and the ascendance of the internet.

Brian








locked Re: why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?

Arlene
 

Well, if you use xp. Just so you know. some sites on IE 9 or whatever xp uses. Cant be accessible. With xp if you don’t crues the web you'll be fine. If you do it a lot with xp its almost impossible. If you use it for games and audio editing then again you'll be fine. If you have a win 7 as another system you can still crues the web with no problems.

-----Original Message-----
From: Shaun Everiss [mailto:@smeveriss]
Sent: April-19-16 5:55 PM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?

I agree, I am not here by choice.
While I could afford a change up, its more a question of exactly what I
would need it for.
And I can't get every change.
maybe 1 or 2 changes every 5-10 years in my current situation.
But being without a job etc, changing is at the end of a long list
though if and when it happens, it happens.
Even if that means I get a machine for my old games, and audio stuff
that is offline and runs xp or 7 and then have another machine that
handles the web, and email who knows.
Not thought passed that.



On 20/04/2016 12:08 p.m., Arlene wrote:
No it doesn’t. Also too, Yes blind people do wine over change.But, We all need to take into consideration their walk of life. If they can’t afford new equipment for many reasons. Yes they should update if something like xp is no longer usable on the web. Also, most blind people do need to quit wining! It makes it look bad for those who want to change but can’t afford it! I will change if I have to. I’m saving money to get myself a new hard drive so I can update to ten if I have to. I will learn ten if I have to. Don’t worry I’m not wining! Loll!



From: David Moore [mailto:jesusloves1966@...]
Sent: April-19-16 3:51 PM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?



Hi Jene,

That is exactly what I do. It sure does not hurt to have two screen readers at your finger tips either.

You can have JAWS as a 40 minute demo mode just in case, and JAWS users can get NVDA for free. You should not be attacked if you use two screen readers LOL! That type of memorizing will not get you around on many sites you have never been on. Take care all.





From: Gene <mailto:gsasner@...>

Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2016 6:07 AM

To: nvda@groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?



I'm not sure what you have in mind by someone telling you. I'll discuss the Internet in the rest of this message.



There are certain structures that you have to use the virtual mouse of your screen-reader to activate and those represent a lack of accessibility. but those who design sites often know little, if anything, about accessibility. And even if a site is accessible, if a bnlind person doesn't know how to find things on sites efficiently, they may waste a lot of time doing unnecessary things. For example, they may tab through item after item on a site when using the find command might allow them to find something very quickly. Continuing with the Internet as an example, to use the Internet to anywhere near it's potential in terms of efficiency, you have to know how to work with sites you haven't worked with before. A good deal of my Internet use is doing google searches and looking up information on sites I've never used or seldom used. Some people micromemorize sites, for example, memorizing that this or that is the second heading level 4 on a site. You simply can't use the Inter
net well in terms of working with large numbers of sites if you rely on such micromemorization. If people want to micromemorize this or that item on a site they use constantly, I'm not telling them that they shouldn't. but when I see people engage in such micromemorization, it raises the question for me if they know how to work with sites efficiently in general.



When I'm on a site I use often and I want to find the editorial link, I use the find command and search for the link. If it were a heading and I could get there efficiently by moving by heading, I might do that. but it isn't. the find command is the only way I know to find the link efficiently on the site.



Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Katty Geltmeyer <mailto:kattygeltmeyer@...>

Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2016 4:15 AM

To: nvda@groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?



Gene, you are right, I understand your point. But it would be helpful if someone tells you what are the changes, so that you can explore a website or programme more efficiently. I don't have an overview of pages etc. so, I go exploring. But this takes some time. And if buttons change behaviour, I mean if you could activate them by using space bar or enter in the past and now they need some other way to be activated, that's a bit a hassle if no one could assist you.



Best, Katty



Van: Gene [mailto:gsasner@...]
Verzonden: dinsdag 19 april 2016 10:41
Aan: nvda@groups.io
Onderwerp: Re: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?



That is true in some cases but in many, that is a real exaggeration and reflects users not understanding how to learn the structure of a program or not understanding a new structure such as ribbons.



Lots of times, if a web site changes, what is desired can easily be found on the site by using the find command. For example, from time to time, Send Space has changed the way you begin a file download. There might have been a link that says download, for example. That link was changed to a button but if someone is used to using the links list, an artificial structure that separates them from the page and doesn't know how to explore the page itself, they may well have considerable difficulty and may need help to find out how to download again. This does not need to be a crisis. All that need be done is to go to the top of the page and use your screen-reader's find command to search the page for the word download. You will immediately see that download is now a button and you can then simply type the letter b when a Send Space download page opens to move to it.

If a program changes its structure, such as by adopting ribbons, if you know how to look through ribbons, you can look through them and, if desired, make notes of the key combinations to perform certain functions. This is similar to what you might do in a menu program. Far too many blind people are taught to do things by rote and so any change may be a crisis. In many cases, if taught properly, it can be just an inconvenience.



I'm not saying there aren't real problems such as when a program becomes inaccessible or much less so with a new release. But I am saying that many problems could be reduced to inconveniences if blind people were taught to conceptualize what they are doing and not to take certain actions by rote without real understanding of how something is structured and how to learn programs by trying different ways of learning about it such as looking through menus or ribbons.



Some blind people will find such ways of conceptualizing and learning difficult and some will find them easy and some in between. But many people are never taught such things so easy, difficult or in between for them, they never get to find out.



Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Katty Geltmeyer <mailto:kattygeltmeyer@...>

Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2016 2:47 AM

To: nvda@groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?



For seeing persons, compare the situation of the blind with the following: you are used to go to your local supermarket, and nearly to find everything you need on the shelves by almost walking asleep (you know what to find where). At a certain day, everything is changed: the name of the store, the products inside, the position of the products on the shelves, the shelves themselves, the several departments (bakery, vegetables, …) everything you can think of is changed. Unfortunately you are forced to wander through the store without having an overview of the store, no scanning of the shelves with the eyes, … After a mornth, you are used to the new store and products and their place in the store, everything changes again and you can start all over again. Isn't this a nightmare? Well, that's what the blind are forced to do every time a website, a programme, … changes.



In fact, I should post this to the accessible googlegroup.



Best, Katty



Van: n8mnx@... [mailto:n8mnx@...]
Verzonden: dinsdag 19 april 2016 4:14
Aan: nvda@groups.io
Onderwerp: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?



I think that maybe blind people are not against change for the sake of change but it's the fear that their old favorite programs won't work and how accessable will the new os be or how accessable will the new programs be. I to did like windows xp with outlook express and when I was concitering upgrading to windows 7 I was hesitent because I did not know what email program would work and be accessable. I did of course upgrade and used windows live mail and when I began to have issues with it I went to thunderbird and I now have windows 10 and I still use thunderbird. I think that the reason that we all like outlook express isthat it is just a simple email program with nobells and whistles like calendars or features that we don't need or can't use. Outlook express will always be the best email program but we have adapted to other programs but that does not mean that we are happy with them we just adjust. We all don't like change but we can and do adapt but we don't like it
. With new versions of windows there may be features that we don't need or want or we can't use but we use what we want to use or what we can use. I know that every one has their screen reader of choice and they think that theirs is the best I use nvdathen there is the issue of winamp it's no longer supported but I still have not been convinced that there is a better program so I will just keep using it. We should upgrade if we need to but we chould not have change fordced upon us this should be our choice. Think of the Omish people they don't have cars they still use horse and buggies that is their choice and so is somones choice if they still use windows xp if they are willing to take the risk thats their choice and not ours.
Brian Sackrider

On 4/18/2016 9:48 PM, Pauline Smith wrote:

Change is hard, but we must adjust. I wasn't fond of Win 7 when I got this computer, but I have adjusted. When a colleague told me how to find and put terms into the search bar by hitting the Start button, much frustration has been saved. Now, I'm comtemplating doing the upgrade to Win 10. I just wanted to make sure I knew what I was getting into before doing it.

Pauline

On 4/18/2016 6:27 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:

Rosemarie Chavarria wrote, in regard to a friend of hers who insisted on staying with WinXP, "I asked him why and his answer was that it was simpler to work with."

And I can't count the times I've heard this, about way more than Windows, and thought, "No, it's not easier to work with - it's what you're used to." Win XP was an OS I loved and Microsoft has the annoying habit of alternating "good" and "bad" versions of Windows. The number of things that require manual intervention from the user in XP is huge compared to later versions, particularly Windows 7 forward. And, when it comes down to it, even in the "ugly" versions of Windows the similarities to their predecessors is at least as strong as the differences, but the differences are where people are required to learn something new.

David Moore's comments regarding those who live to be 100, or near it, really resonate with me. My grandmother died in the 1990s and was in her 90s at the time. When I think about what technology was at her birth and the amount of change she and her age cohort had to go through I am amazed. I don't know if I could be as flexible as they were. While the pace of change has picked up, particularly in the cyber world, the majority of changes I've lived through (I'm just short of 54 years old) feel to me much more like refinements on very familiar themes rather than complete divergences from what came before. That was not true for my grandparents at all, and my parents experienced more revolutionary changes than I have, too. I think my only two revolutions were the introduction of the personal computer and the ascendance of the internet.

Brian








locked Re: why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?

Arlene
 

Me too. Its hard to get me motivated.

-----Original Message-----
From: Shaun Everiss [mailto:@smeveriss]
Sent: April-19-16 5:56 PM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?


I agree.
Motivation to do things for me is difficult but not impossible.


On 20/04/2016 12:11 p.m., Arlene wrote:
That is good to know. Still blind people who wine have no reason to do so. But tit's good to learn should you end up with win ten. Just like wen my xp box bit the dust I ended up with 7.

-----Original Message-----
From: David Moore [mailto:jesusloves1966@...]
Sent: April-19-16 3:01 PM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?

Hi Rosemarie and all,
Every time MS produces a new version of windows, Freedom Scientific's web
site has many tutorials and free webinars on there about how to use a new
version of windows. NVDA users can learn jus as much from these tutorials,
because all of the concepts are the same. Using NVDA does not have anything
to do with using a new version of windows. If anyone wants to look at the
training Freedom Scientific has for win10, here is the link to their web
site:
www.freedomscientific.com
Just find the training link and on that page, there is all kinds of recorded
material that walks you through using many programs with JAWS, but you can
learn just as much if you use NVDA. Take care.


-----Original Message-----
From: Rosemarie Chavarria
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2016 5:45 PM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against
change?

Yes, change can be scary at times. When I upgraded from XP to windows 7, I
wondered if I'd ever be able to learn it. After buying the book and playing
with windows 7, I found it easier to type a program I wanted into the search
box.



-----Original Message-----
From: Shaun Everiss [mailto:@smeveriss]
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2016 1:56 PM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against
change?

Hmmm interesting way to put it.
Lazy, how about frightened, I am certainly scared.
Not wanting, well I have several comercial programs, an advanced screen
reader, and a few other apps which will cost some cash every system change,
so I do actually want to keep going till I need to update those.
Now if someone offered me like a super deal out of the blue then yeah I am a
sucker for packages so I would take it.
Another issue is the environment you are in.
My home environment has users in it who have not and are not wanting to
change.
The same tasks I have been doing for the last while will continue to be the
same and I see no reason to bother changing, ofcause its like I am in a
stagnent pool.
Life is that pool, its not moved much since I left university.
There is only so many positions in that pool you can be in.
There are not that many.



On 19/04/2016 8:40 p.m., Christo Vorster wrote:
Hi Angela

I agree with you, but such are people universally. There will always be
people who will make comments on what others say.

I think that deep down, most of us who are resistant to change are
somewhat lazy to learn new things, but so be it. It doesn't mean that it
make you a lazy person. Often the term "lazy" actually means "just not
wanting".

The saying goes: "a change is as good as a holiday", so lets enjoy our
changes, when we make them.

My opinion: if you want to change, do it. If you don't want to, do it. The
choice always is yours. I just feel that those wanting to change just for
the sake of change must take the consequences if they make a wrong choice
and in the same way, we who don't want to change, leave us alone.

Sometimes you find people, especially concerning computer software, who
look down on those not using the same programs as they do. My approach
towards them is just to leave them be.

To be honest, I experienced it with many JAWS-users, and believe me, I
used JAWS until I was forced to upgrade to Win 10, because that is what we
teach at the college where I am employed. Please don't get me wrong, I
don't regret changing to NVDA, I am very happy and believe that NVDA is a
much better package, but the people I refer to, am of the opinion that I
am stupid, and then many of them are using illegitimate copies.

Have a nice day

Christo

-----Original Message-----
From: Angela Delicata via Groups.io
[mailto:angeladelicata=libero.it@groups.io]
Sent: Tuesday, 19 April 2016 10:20 AM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against
change?

Always the same old discussions you can find on a mailing list for blind.
I will say my opinion: I am not against change, I am just lazy to learn
new stuff and do it only when it is really necessary.
I am not perfect, but only God is.
I think one can use whatever program he/she likes and everyone's choice
must be respected.

I wish I would never read such things anymore, but blind are hard to
change.

Ciao
Angela from Italy

Il 19/04/2016 ha scritto:


Van: n8mnx@... [mailto:n8mnx@...]
Verzonden: dinsdag 19 april 2016 4:14
Aan: nvda@groups.io
Onderwerp: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so
against change?



I think that maybe blind people are not against change for the
sake of change but it's the fear that their old favorite programs
won't work and how accessable will the new os be or how accessable
will the new programs be. I to did like windows xp with outlook
express and when I was concitering upgrading to windows 7 I was
hesitent because I did not know what email program would work and be
accessable. I did of course upgrade and used windows live mail and
when I began to have issues with it I went to thunderbird and I now
have windows 10 and I still use thunderbird. I think that the reason
that we all like outlook express isthat it is just a simple email
program with nobells and whistles like calendars or features that we
don't need or can't use. Outlook express will always be the best
email program but we have adapted to other programs but that does not
mean that we are happy with them we just adjust. We all don't like
change but we can and do adapt but we don't like it. With new
versions of windows there may be features that we don't need or want
or we can't use but we use what we want to use or what we can use. I
know that every one has their screen reader of choice and they think
that theirs is the best I use nvdathen there is the issue of winamp
it's no longer supported but I still have not been convinced that there
is a better program so I will just keep using it.
We should upgrade if we need to but we chould not have change fordced
upon us this should be our choice. Think of the Omish people they
don't have cars they still use horse and buggies that is their choice
and so is somones choice if they still use windows xp if they are
willing to take the risk thats their choice and not ours.
Brian Sackrider

On 4/18/2016 9:48 PM, Pauline Smith wrote:

Change is hard, but we must adjust. I wasn't fond of Win 7 when I
got this computer, but I have adjusted. When a colleague told me how
to find and put terms into the search bar by hitting the Start
button, much frustration has been saved. Now, I'm comtemplating
doing the upgrade to Win 10. I just wanted to make sure I knew what
I was getting into before doing it.

Pauline



On 4/18/2016 6:27 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:

Rosemarie Chavarria wrote, in regard to a friend of hers who insisted
on staying with WinXP, "I asked him why and his answer was that it
was simpler to work with."

And I can't count the times I've heard this, about way more than
Windows, and thought, "No, it's not easier to work with - it's what
you're used to." Win XP was an OS I loved and Microsoft has the
annoying habit of alternating "good" and "bad" versions of Windows.
The number of things that require manual intervention from the user
in XP is huge compared to later versions, particularly Windows 7 forward.
And, when it comes down to it, even in the "ugly" versions of Windows
the similarities to their predecessors is at least as strong as the
differences, but the differences are where people are required to
learn something new.

David Moore's comments regarding those who live to be 100, or near
it, really resonate with me. My grandmother died in the 1990s and
was in her 90s at the time. When I think about what technology was at
her birth and the amount of change she and her age cohort had to go
through I am amazed. I don't know if I could be as flexible as they
were. While the pace of change has picked up, particularly in the
cyber world, the majority of changes I've lived through (I'm just
short of 54 years old) feel to me much more like refinements on very
familiar themes rather than complete divergences from what came
before. That was not true for my grandparents at all, and my parents
experienced more revolutionary changes than I have, too. I think my
only two revolutions were the introduction of the personal computer and
the ascendance of the internet.

Brian










---
Questa e-mail è stata controllata per individuare virus con Avast
antivirus.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus




















locked Re: why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?

Arlene
 

Well that’s good to know if you go to ten. It was like that for years! Even in win xp it was alt A to get to favorites.

 

From: Brian Vogel [mailto:britechguy@...]
Sent: April-19-16 7:03 PM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?

 

Chris Shook asked:  "So, are you guys telling me that the file menu in internet explorer is now a ribbon? If so, where is the favorites menu located?"

The File Menu, along with the Edit, View, Favorites, Tools, and Help Menus in IE11 remain precisely as they've been for a very long time.  The keyboard shortcuts to access them remain unchanged.  It's still ALT+A to access the Favorites menu if you're using the keyboard shortcut method.  IE11 is the version of Internet Explorer that ships with Windows 10 and has been "the latest and greatest" version of that program on Win7 and Win8/8.1 for a while now.

Since Microsoft seems to be determined to retire Internet Explorer over the long term, replacing it by Edge, it's not likely to change much for other than security patches.

Brian


locked Re: This is the moderator speaking: Question Regarding Eloquence for NVDA from Code Factory

David Moore
 

Hi Rosemarie,
You got it. I used Word perfect a lot as well, and I remember copying one floppy to another floppy, because the computer had two floppy drives side by side LOL!

-----Original Message-----
From: Rosemarie Chavarria
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2016 11:53 PM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] This is the moderator speaking: Question Regarding Eloquence for NVDA from Code Factory

Hi, David,

I remember those dos days too. I went to a program called ROP which stands for regional occupation program and we used those old computers too. I remember those old 7-inch floppy disks. One had a program called word rap and the one on the right drive had the actual program of a word processing program on it. That was when the drives were side by side instead of one on top and one on the bottom.

Rosemarie

-----Original Message-----
From: David Moore [mailto:jesusloves1966@...]
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2016 8:49 PM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] This is the moderator speaking: Question Regarding Eloquence for NVDA from Code Factory

Hi guys,
I remember those good-old days well. When I went to college in the 80's, I had the 720 KB floppy disks. I had DOS, a synthesizer, and a Pascal interpreter on one of those floppies. I remember when Ohio State got a few IBM AT's with a 1 meg hard drive, and one could put everything imaginable on it. MS then thought that one would never need more than a few meg for everything they had. Windows OS sure changed all of that for sure. Also, computer programs were very concise then. The programmer tried to have as few lines of code as possible so that space would be conserved. Now, because of all the room we have on our systems, programmers have many lines of code that is not necessary. Teachers who said to write only one page made it much harder for me to summarize everything in that little bit of space. I would imagine that it was harder for programmers in the 80's to summarize everything in as few lines of code as possible. We do have way more room than we need. Also, videos and audio files could be made much more compressed if people did not expect HD video quality and the best audio quality. You brought back a lot of good memories. Jobs for the blind were plentiful in computers in the dos days, because everything was text and command driven instead of a five year old being able to point at an icon and click. Many more people can use the computer, but it has made it harder for the blind to use new computers. It seems like technology is trying to make everything easier and easier for the sighted, but at the same time, it makes it much more adventurous for the blind. But there is a lot of good that has come out of this. Artificial intelligence will enable the blind to do many tasks in the next ten years like driving a car. We have to look at the glass half full and look toward a totally different future than we had in the 80's. Thanks for some good memories. Take care.


-----Original Message-----
From: Shaun Everiss
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2016 8:41 PM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] This is the moderator speaking: Question Regarding Eloquence for NVDA from Code Factory

To be honest you'd be surprised what I had back in the day.
While I didn't use windows 3.11 or anything, I had wordprefect 5.1 though didn't use it much as I had a keynote gold 1850 and used keysoft
1 and mastertouch 1 for my work.
I had a 80mb drive then when that died a 60 mb drive.
I was able with drivespace from dos 6.22 to compress the drive to round 110-130mb and then ran compressed.
On that drive, I had wordprefect with documents, dos 6.22, a coppy of norton utilities 7 later upgraded to 8.
quarterdec expanded memmory manager version 8.0, several games and interpriters to run them, at least 5mb worth of utilities some made in house by someone I knew at the time.
And I still had space.
I knew friends that had old office 4, works version 2, several games, in fact most of the 500mb drive they had was games, both for windows and dos.
a cd drive, and soundblaster etc.
What you must remember is that 125mb was actually quite a lot.
The biggest programs were never more than 10-20mb however, remember that dialup stuff means that 1-5mb was rather big in those days.
Your os was on 3 disks and if you had the suplimentals 4.
My toshiba had its own utilities disk and origional os disk.
all 1.44mb ofcause wordperfect came on 6 720kb disks.
2 disk for the printer.
1 for the dictionary.
1 for the printer program.
1 for the wordperfect program itself.
1 for the graphics components
1 for the installers, utilities, graphics drivers, basic graphics files, text driver, and fonts.
The installer also created all the network files itself, modified My compressed 110mb drive actually had a lot on it though 95% of it was for fun I even had x tree gold.
The thing with the modern system is that everything got bigger once windows became its own opperating system and not a dumb dos shell.
True programs were written for it but even so.
Up to windows 98 in fact windows did still use a stripped down version of dos, each version having less and less.
Windows me had a really stripped down version of dos that with a little hacking you could be made to access.
From windows 2000 on windows was its own os though the nt based os we all know and love now existed it was for network users.
configurations etc.
The major advantage with the 9x systems was you could run just about everything or anything and the system would not care.
Ofcause you didn't have the driver library for things like flash drives and the like and usb support in fact didn't exist when win95 came out but even so I kinda liked it.
No intercepts, and no real issue.
Later on with all the security protection etc that came with windows, you got a lot of broken chains and issues with screenreaders running together and uninstalling and the like.
You could do it if you knew what you were doing but it was unstable.
If you screwed up, then you could redo the chain but you would have to reload the display and start again and then or reformat which is what happened whenever I forgot to run things in the right order or at once which was easy to do hotkeys and all.
With the dcm mirror system you can't do this anymore because its all library driven.
And with uia now you definately can not cause any real issue.
That may actually be one change and only a reason that would get me to upgrade to another os though the mirror system works just fine.
Ofcause with nvda and things that directly access the components of the windows os all those off screen models and the like are bypassed though you can loose some vertual modes and the stuff for some of the access things have changed.
Programs are relying on web components for starters and thats where it is at.
Eventually we may se an os based on the web and as long as that is accessible it may not be that bad.



On 20/04/2016 11:41 a.m., David Moore wrote:
Hi,
With a 125 meg hard drive, how can you even have any programs or
documents on there? Do you back them up to a floppy disk?


From: Carlos
Sent: Monday, April 18, 2016 7:11 PM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] This is the moderator speaking: Question Regarding
Eloquence for NVDA from Code Factory

Hello Again:

A description of my PC:



*Packard Bell Legend V

*386SX 16MHz Processor

*125 Megabyte Hard Disk

*EGA Video Card

*14 Inch Monitor

*Sound Blaster I Sound Card

*101 PS/2 Keyboard/Logitech Three Button Mouse w/Rubber Ball on
Bottom


*Windows 3.11/MS DOS 6.22

*Norton Commander 5, Microsoft Office Professional

*NVDA 5.x




Long live the 90's!!!


*


On 4/18/2016 3:27 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:

Rosemarie Chavarria wrote, in regard to a friend of hers who
insisted on staying with WinXP, "I asked him why and his answer was
that it was simpler to work with."

And I can't count the times I've heard this, about way more than
Windows, and thought, "No, it's not easier to work with - it's what
you're used to." Win XP was an OS I loved and Microsoft has the
annoying habit of alternating "good" and "bad" versions of Windows.
The number of things that require manual intervention from the user in
XP is huge compared to later versions, particularly Windows 7 forward.
And, when it comes down to it, even in the "ugly" versions of Windows
the similarities to their predecessors is at least as strong as the
differences, but the differences are where people are required to learn something new.

David Moore's comments regarding those who live to be 100, or near
it, really resonate with me. My grandmother died in the 1990s and was
in her 90s at the time. When I think about what technology was at her
birth and the amount of change she and her age cohort had to go through I am amazed.
I don't know if I could be as flexible as they were. While the pace
of change has picked up, particularly in the cyber world, the majority
of changes I've lived through (I'm just short of 54 years old) feel to
me much more like refinements on very familiar themes rather than
complete divergences from what came before. That was not true for my
grandparents at all, and my parents experienced more revolutionary
changes than I have, too. I think my only two revolutions were the
introduction of the personal computer and the ascendance of the internet.

Brian



locked Re: why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?

Arlene
 

Well that's good they got it from the blind place in Texas. If they have to pay more for Medication. Then by all means. Use the blind place to get a computer.

-----Original Message-----
From: Rosemarie Chavarria [mailto:knitqueen2007@...]
Sent: April-19-16 7:55 PM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?

Hi, Arleen,

My friend in Main got a windows 7 computer from this place in Texas called Computers for the Blind. If she had bought it at a store like Staples or a computer store, it would have been a lot more expensive. I was fortunate to get this computer on sale in 2011. My friend and her husband have to pay quite a bit of money for their medications so it's not always easy for them to make ends meet.

Rosemarie



-----Original Message-----
From: Arlene [mailto:nedster66@...]
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2016 5:09 PM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?

No it doesn’t. Also too, Yes blind people do wine over change.But, We all need to take into consideration their walk of life. If they can’t afford new equipment for many reasons. Yes they should update if something like xp is no longer usable on the web. Also, most blind people do need to quit wining! It makes it look bad for those who want to change but can’t afford it! I will change if I have to. I’m saving money to get myself a new hard drive so I can update to ten if I have to. I will learn ten if I have to. Don’t worry I’m not wining! Loll!



From: David Moore [mailto:jesusloves1966@...]
Sent: April-19-16 3:51 PM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?



Hi Jene,

That is exactly what I do. It sure does not hurt to have two screen readers at your finger tips either.

You can have JAWS as a 40 minute demo mode just in case, and JAWS users can get NVDA for free. You should not be attacked if you use two screen readers LOL! That type of memorizing will not get you around on many sites you have never been on. Take care all.





From: Gene <mailto:gsasner@...>

Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2016 6:07 AM

To: nvda@groups.io <mailto:nvda@groups.io>

Subject: Re: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?



I'm not sure what you have in mind by someone telling you. I'll discuss the Internet in the rest of this message.



There are certain structures that you have to use the virtual mouse of your screen-reader to activate and those represent a lack of accessibility. but those who design sites often know little, if anything, about accessibility. And even if a site is accessible, if a bnlind person doesn't know how to find things on sites efficiently, they may waste a lot of time doing unnecessary things. For example, they may tab through item after item on a site when using the find command might allow them to find something very quickly. Continuing with the Internet as an example, to use the Internet to anywhere near it's potential in terms of efficiency, you have to know how to work with sites you haven't worked with before. A good deal of my Internet use is doing google searches and looking up information on sites I've never used or seldom used. Some people micromemorize sites, for example, memorizing that this or that is the second heading level 4 on a site. You simply can't use the Internet well in terms of working with large numbers of sites if you rely on such micromemorization. If people want to micromemorize this or that item on a site they use constantly, I'm not telling them that they shouldn't. but when I see people engage in such micromemorization, it raises the question for me if they know how to work with sites efficiently in general.



When I'm on a site I use often and I want to find the editorial link, I use the find command and search for the link. If it were a heading and I could get there efficiently by moving by heading, I might do that. but it isn't. the find command is the only way I know to find the link efficiently on the site.



Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Katty Geltmeyer <mailto:kattygeltmeyer@...>

Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2016 4:15 AM

To: nvda@groups.io <mailto:nvda@groups.io>

Subject: Re: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?



Gene, you are right, I understand your point. But it would be helpful if someone tells you what are the changes, so that you can explore a website or programme more efficiently. I don't have an overview of pages etc. so, I go exploring. But this takes some time. And if buttons change behaviour, I mean if you could activate them by using space bar or enter in the past and now they need some other way to be activated, that's a bit a hassle if no one could assist you.



Best, Katty



Van: Gene [mailto:gsasner@...]
Verzonden: dinsdag 19 april 2016 10:41
Aan: nvda@groups.io
Onderwerp: Re: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?



That is true in some cases but in many, that is a real exaggeration and reflects users not understanding how to learn the structure of a program or not understanding a new structure such as ribbons.



Lots of times, if a web site changes, what is desired can easily be found on the site by using the find command. For example, from time to time, Send Space has changed the way you begin a file download. There might have been a link that says download, for example. That link was changed to a button but if someone is used to using the links list, an artificial structure that separates them from the page and doesn't know how to explore the page itself, they may well have considerable difficulty and may need help to find out how to download again. This does not need to be a crisis. All that need be done is to go to the top of the page and use your screen-reader's find command to search the page for the word download. You will immediately see that download is now a button and you can then simply type the letter b when a Send Space download page opens to move to it.

If a program changes its structure, such as by adopting ribbons, if you know how to look through ribbons, you can look through them and, if desired, make notes of the key combinations to perform certain functions. This is similar to what you might do in a menu program. Far too many blind people are taught to do things by rote and so any change may be a crisis. In many cases, if taught properly, it can be just an inconvenience.



I'm not saying there aren't real problems such as when a program becomes inaccessible or much less so with a new release. But I am saying that many problems could be reduced to inconveniences if blind people were taught to conceptualize what they are doing and not to take certain actions by rote without real understanding of how something is structured and how to learn programs by trying different ways of learning about it such as looking through menus or ribbons.



Some blind people will find such ways of conceptualizing and learning difficult and some will find them easy and some in between. But many people are never taught such things so easy, difficult or in between for them, they never get to find out.



Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Katty Geltmeyer <mailto:kattygeltmeyer@...>

Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2016 2:47 AM

To: nvda@groups.io <mailto:nvda@groups.io>

Subject: Re: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?



For seeing persons, compare the situation of the blind with the following: you are used to go to your local supermarket, and nearly to find everything you need on the shelves by almost walking asleep (you know what to find where). At a certain day, everything is changed: the name of the store, the products inside, the position of the products on the shelves, the shelves themselves, the several departments (bakery, vegetables, …) everything you can think of is changed. Unfortunately you are forced to wander through the store without having an overview of the store, no scanning of the shelves with the eyes, … After a mornth, you are used to the new store and products and their place in the store, everything changes again and you can start all over again. Isn't this a nightmare? Well, that's what the blind are forced to do every time a website, a programme, … changes.



In fact, I should post this to the accessible googlegroup.



Best, Katty



Van: n8mnx@... [mailto:n8mnx@...]
Verzonden: dinsdag 19 april 2016 4:14
Aan: nvda@groups.io
Onderwerp: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?



I think that maybe blind people are not against change for the sake of change but it's the fear that their old favorite programs won't work and how accessable will the new os be or how accessable will the new programs be. I to did like windows xp with outlook express and when I was concitering upgrading to windows 7 I was hesitent because I did not know what email program would work and be accessable. I did of course upgrade and used windows live mail and when I began to have issues with it I went to thunderbird and I now have windows 10 and I still use thunderbird. I think that the reason that we all like outlook express isthat it is just a simple email program with nobells and whistles like calendars or features that we don't need or can't use. Outlook express will always be the best email program but we have adapted to other programs but that does not mean that we are happy with them we just adjust. We all don't like change but we can and do adapt but we don't like it. With new versions of windows there may be features that we don't need or want or we can't use but we use what we want to use or what we can use. I know that every one has their screen reader of choice and they think that theirs is the best I use nvdathen there is the issue of winamp it's no longer supported but I still have not been convinced that there is a better program so I will just keep using it. We should upgrade if we need to but we chould not have change fordced upon us this should be our choice. Think of the Omish people they don't have cars they still use horse and buggies that is their choice and so is somones choice if they still use windows xp if they are willing to take the risk thats their choice and not ours.
Brian Sackrider

On 4/18/2016 9:48 PM, Pauline Smith wrote:

Change is hard, but we must adjust. I wasn't fond of Win 7 when I got this computer, but I have adjusted. When a colleague told me how to find and put terms into the search bar by hitting the Start button, much frustration has been saved. Now, I'm comtemplating doing the upgrade to Win 10. I just wanted to make sure I knew what I was getting into before doing it.

Pauline

On 4/18/2016 6:27 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:

Rosemarie Chavarria wrote, in regard to a friend of hers who insisted on staying with WinXP, "I asked him why and his answer was that it was simpler to work with."

And I can't count the times I've heard this, about way more than Windows, and thought, "No, it's not easier to work with - it's what you're used to." Win XP was an OS I loved and Microsoft has the annoying habit of alternating "good" and "bad" versions of Windows. The number of things that require manual intervention from the user in XP is huge compared to later versions, particularly Windows 7 forward. And, when it comes down to it, even in the "ugly" versions of Windows the similarities to their predecessors is at least as strong as the differences, but the differences are where people are required to learn something new.

David Moore's comments regarding those who live to be 100, or near it, really resonate with me. My grandmother died in the 1990s and was in her 90s at the time. When I think about what technology was at her birth and the amount of change she and her age cohort had to go through I am amazed. I don't know if I could be as flexible as they were. While the pace of change has picked up, particularly in the cyber world, the majority of changes I've lived through (I'm just short of 54 years old) feel to me much more like refinements on very familiar themes rather than complete divergences from what came before. That was not true for my grandparents at all, and my parents experienced more revolutionary changes than I have, too. I think my only two revolutions were the introduction of the personal computer and the ascendance of the internet.

Brian


Re: affordable change

Arlene
 

That's good to know. But for me. I'm Canadian. It may cost more.

-----Original Message-----
From: Rosemarie Chavarria [mailto:knitqueen2007@...]
Sent: April-19-16 8:43 PM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] affordable change

That's neat. I'll have to check one out whenever I go to Walmart.



-----Original Message-----
From: Josh Kennedy [mailto:joshknnd1982@...]
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2016 7:38 PM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: [nvda] affordable change

hi
if you want something inexpensive to try out windows10 on you could get yourself an RCA cambio tablet they are $100 at walmart.com . its a touch screen tablet that plugs into a physical keyboard using magnets. you get a 32gig ssd plus up to 64gigs micro sd card slot and one usb port and one micro usb port. and windows 10 home. so you can snap the tablet into the keyboard dock and use it as a laptop or disconnect the tablet and use it touch screen only with NVDA if you wish. it gets 6 or so hours on a battery charge it has a quad core adam processor 2gigs of ram. the battery is replaceable.

--
sent from Mozilla Thunderbird email client


locked Re: This is the moderator speaking: Question Regarding Eloquence for NVDA from Code Factory

Rosemarie Chavarria
 

Anxious Andy is hilarious! One time I read a message using that voice and I was laughing so hard that my sides nearly ached. He'd be good for reading a scary story on Halloween.

-----Original Message-----
From: Isaac [mailto:bigikemusic@...]
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2016 6:37 PM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: This is the moderator speaking: [nvda] Question Regarding Eloquence for NVDA from Code Factory

try anxious andy, he will make your nerves raddle
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Moore" <jesusloves1966@...>
To: <nvda@groups.io>
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2016 5:10 PM
Subject: Re: This is the moderator speaking: [nvda] Question Regarding Eloquence for NVDA from Code Factory


I have heard Joseph Lee do tutorials with e-speak. It must not be that
bad LOL!


-----Original Message-----
From: Rosemarie Chavarria
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2016 5:57 PM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: This is the moderator speaking: [nvda] Question Regarding
Eloquence for NVDA from Code Factory

I'm using e-speak right now and it's definitely clear. I like that
it's fast and responsive too. Yeah, it's robotic but I'd rather have a
synth that's clear than one that crashes. I'm not changing in that respect.



-----Original Message-----
From: Shaun Everiss [mailto:@smeveriss]
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2016 1:39 PM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: This is the moderator speaking: [nvda] Question Regarding
Eloquence for NVDA from Code Factory

Gees you guys again with espeak.
Espeak is a robit bit of crap.
However its quite clear, no low quality voices.
Its good for a high performance small form facter synth.
I have grown to like it over even my higher quality synths.
Its an internal library.
I do think nvda needs to come with more opensource synths to it though.
I'd like the speechplayer to continue development and thats maybe
where we should put our efforts.
Gwmicro has its own dectalk, freedom scientiffic has eloquence.
supernova has orpheus.
We have espeak which is what linux uses.
We are opensource, so espeak is a standard.
So are things like flite which is total junk, and festival//festvox
which I am not sure about and piko.
For those complaining about an opensource synth try writing one.
Espeak for what it is actually is not that bad once you get used to it.
True its robotic, but its clear, high enough quality especially for
small speakers and headsets, can run on almost anything from a single
cored 128mb ram unit to the latest unit on the market.
Its an internal dll, its stable and hardly if ever crashes.
The only thing of concern is that development has stopped for it maybe
I am not sure, point is just about every opensource program from linux
to some free things use it.
Its not a reading synth but its good for general every day tasks.
You can'
't have everything.
Or do you want something that is not robotic, that sounds bad quality
and not clear, that crashes constantly, maybe makes windows unstable
that every few days you have to reformat.
Do you want something which to get the version that works you need to
pay for it.
The only other synth that could be that fast is flite and thats
totally bad.
Saying that if anyone has other things thats fine.
Espeak for me is a signature synth, but maybe we should focus on
either the espeak extention for speech player or the speechplayer 1
development and work on making our own synth.
Ofcause we could just have no synth at all, and use sapi/speech
platform which is probably doable especially where windows is going.
Be happy with what you have.
Espeak is a crappy robotic thing but its outwayed by its performance
and stability and use on other things like linux.
I am sick of those that think we should change, its worked and its
good for what it is.
As an network admin I actually like it, a fast startup is key to a
good opperation I don't want to wait for a synth to start up
especially with activations/errors.
Anyway no one says you need to stay on the base thing and this is what
espeak is, the base synth.
It is what it is.
There was a servey done about speech, maybe to refresh those new ones
on here there needs to be another one online and on the list.
Maybe that needs to be done.
I am concerned that there are those that will say this thing needs to
be changed and don't realise how hard it is to make something like this.



On 20/04/2016 6:26 a.m., Lino Morales wrote:
Yeah we just need to convince James and Michael to do away with
ESpeak for good. I'm sorry, but now NVDA is 10 now its time to find
aother open source sulutions for a default synth. I've made this
argument before and I'm gonna hound for more change cause there
people like my wife who aslso blind and has progressive hearing loss
that synths like ESpeak won't do. Its not worth spending the money to
buy Vocalizer for twoo separate people.


On 4/18/2016 6:37 AM, Brian's Mail list account wrote:
Yes indeed. Whis was why I tried to choose my words very carefully
on the reply to the thread, but I think it went over the heads of many.

I always donate when a new stable version comes out, and if anyone
wants to say, the project needs x to do then I also donate
according to what I think I can afford.

The thing about Eloquence is, at least from my very limited
experience with other people this.
Most older users who migrated from Jaws, seem to like eloquence,
most new users of computers prefer something that sounds more human,
or of course they can now mix and match as they like. What you
should not do is install hacked versions of anything, as it does
take away money form somebody who is trying to make a living. If its
too much then just don't get it. we are spoiled for choice with
voices these days, and its up to the individual to decide if they
need a non free one to aid their comprehension.

Though I do still have an old version of Via Voice here on some
computers, I just don't like the eloquence type of sound, so I
hardly ever use it, and have not bought a copy. However, some of the
other voices like Daniel and Serena I have purchased over the years
and find them very got for reading documents, with the one proviso
of them using expanded US abbreviations like St for saint and NY for
new York, which are rather silly when encountered in normal text!

Brian

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----- Original Message ----- From: "Joseph Lee"
<@joslee>
To: <nvda@groups.io>
Sent: Monday, April 18, 2016 11:17 AM
Subject: Re: This is the moderator speaking: [nvda] Question
Regarding Eloquence for NVDA from Code Factory


Ladies and gentlemen,

Until a few months ago, discussion of Eloquence wasn't allowed on
this list. This was relaxed last summer when Code Factory released
Eloquence add-on. Back then, Nimer and I (Nimer being the actual
list
owner) said discussion of illegal version isn't still permitted.
At this point, it would be advisable to suspend Eloquence
discussions for a while. We cannot risk giving NVDA a slightly muddy
reputation at this important occasion: NVDA's tenth anniversary and NVDACon.
Please don't forget this: the reputation of a product, particularly
a product that many of you depends on, depends on what users say
about the product and the discussions surrounding it.
For those new to this list: I'm known for being generous. However,
I'm also known for being a volcano, especially if the integrity of
the list or the reputation of a product or a community is questioned.
I'll not activate moderation flag for anyone out of respect for
everyone and for newbies to get accustomed to this environment.
For our old friends: Yes, I am indeed serious, more serious now that
we're about to help NV Access celebrate NVDA's tenth birthday. Not
only I'm speaking on behalf of moderators, but as one of the
planners of NVDACon 2016 (I am indeed the chair of the planning
committee), I'd like to kindly request that we care about reputation
of NVDA, NV Access and this community. These days, what gives me
more stress isn't the question of who will succeed me or success of
NVDACon, but the reputation and future of this community for months
and years to come.
What gives me more joy is to see you all become folks who can think
about what's going on and make informed decisions (yes, that's the
reason why I've proposed certain proposals in the past).
In conclusion, I do know I will not be able to sleep tonight, but
believe I need to say this: NVDA community, specifically this forum,
is facing a crisis: misinformation abounds and passion trumps reason
at times. We're suffering from a disease called "misinformation" -
what is illegal being seen as legal, people not being informed as to
what's available to them when they need it, name calling at times
and so forth (as I mentioned in my blog, I will not accept name calling).
Being passionate about something is good, but it is better to think
about what's going on before defending one's arguments. In other
words, contrary to what we've said about this forum to the outside
world, we're at times known for doing the opposite.
Lastly, in regards to free material: there is no such thing as free
lunch. I do need to say this in public: NVDA isn't technically free.
For the benefit of many, NVDA is made available as a free,
open-source and community-driven screen reader. But there are costs
associated with this project. Please stop now and imagine for a
second: imagine a group of developers who have decided to promote
equal access to technology at no additional costs, using their
talents to give opportunities for someone who lives in poverty
somewhere. NVDA is more than a screen reader now: it's a movement,
and workers deserve their wages - support, encouragement,
opportunities and so on.
Thank you.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: Afrim [mailto:afrim.maja@...]
Sent: Monday, April 18, 2016 2:43 AM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Question Regarding Eloquence for NVDA from Code
Factory

Why do people talk about it? They can, and I don't consider it
against the rules of the list since the add-on, the alternative if
you like to call it is available and accessible from within the
add-on list of NVDA.

Sent from my iPhone

On Apr 17, 2016, at 9:33 PM, mk360 <mk.seventhson@...> wrote:

Hi,

I can pay, but the first condition is that the paid versions works
as fine or better that the alternative, and as reviews as been
said, that is not the case.
However, I know that in the list we can't speak about that
alternative, so I don't understand why the people speak about it.

Regards,
mk.

El 17-04-2016 a las 8:04, Greg Wocher escribió:
Hello,
I want to give those of you who use the illegal eloquence add on
some food for thought. When you do it and proudly proclaim that
you do, you give NVDA and its users a bad reputation. I think I
may purchase the Code Factory add on later this afternoon from AT
Guys and I will let you all know if it gets rid of the choppiness.

Regards,
Greg Wocher

On 4/17/2016 5:32 AM, Peter Beasley wrote:
My sentiments exactly.

-----Original Message----- From: Afrim
Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2016 6:40 AM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Question Regarding Eloquence for NVDA from
Code Factory

I have been using the old add-on of eloquonce someone made, and I
am not going to pay for a program that does essentially the same
thing. The add-on I am talking about works so fast and reliably.
cheers.

Sent from my iPhone

On Apr 17, 2016, at 6:22 AM, Kelly Sapergia
<ksapergia@...> wrote:

Hi,

Recently, there was a discussion about alternative voices for
NVDA, such as Code Factory's add-on with Eloquence and Vocalizer.
I mentioned that when I tried this particular product, I noticed
that Eloquence sounded quite choppy compared to other screen
readers and other synths I have for NVDA on my machine running
Windows 7.
I also never experienced this with Code Factory's SAPI 5
implementation.
Anyway, I got thinking about it this evening, and decided to do
some searching to see if anyone else was experiencing similar
issues. I found a thread about the add-on in the old NVDA list's
archive, and saw a message stating that the choppiness would go
away once the product was paid for. I was just wondering if this
is indeed the case? If yes, it's not what I'd consider the best
way to limit a trial version, but I might buy it after all.

Thanks.

Yours Sincerely,
Kelly John Sapergia
Show Host and Production Director The Global Voice Internet
Radio http://www.theglobalvoice.info

Personal Website: http://www.ksapergia.net Business Website (KJS
Productions): http://www.kjsproductions.com Follow me on Twitter
at: kjsapergia