Date   

Re: How is verbosity decided

Gene
 

I've filed a bug report but I didn't know about feature requests. I'll see what I can find. Maybe its time for NVDA to have profiles in the program as installed that would, for example, read bloc quote when popular e-mail programs are being used but not when browsing. Can you imagine the uproar if talking book readers identified bloc quotes, and figures that have no meaning except visually, they are a way of presenting text which would be read exactly the same way, such as a link, and other material of very questionable value?

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 2020 10:52 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How is verbosity decided

On Wed, Dec 16, 2020 at 06:57 AM, Gene wrote:
Who cares about bloc quote and end of bloc quote.-
On that one, I know scads of people who care about this, particularly when dealing with email messages involving a lot of back and forth.

On GitHub for NVAccess there exist two options as far as the creation of an Issue: Bug Report and Feature Request. I'd say that yours falls in to the category of Feature Request, since NVDA is running as currently designed, but that design is problematic for you as an end user.

I thought that NVDA had what I think JAWS calls verbosity levels, but I cannot seem to recall what they're called if they do, or under what settings they're tweaked.

--


Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:] Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next. We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner


Re: How is verbosity decided

 

On Wed, Dec 16, 2020 at 06:57 AM, Gene wrote:
Who cares about bloc quote and end of bloc quote.
-
On that one, I know scads of people who care about this, particularly when dealing with email messages involving a lot of back and forth.

On GitHub for NVAccess there exist two options as far as the creation of an Issue:  Bug Report and Feature Request.   I'd say that yours falls in to the category of Feature Request, since NVDA is running as currently designed, but that design is problematic for you as an end user.

I thought that NVDA had what I think JAWS calls verbosity levels, but I cannot seem to recall what they're called if they do, or under what settings they're tweaked.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next.  We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

        ~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner 

 


Re: Silencing Reading of Numbers in NVDA

 

On Wed, Dec 16, 2020 at 01:36 AM, Tony Malykh wrote:
,\d+,
-
Although I cannot easily think of a case "in a typical document" where this would snag something and make it silent, I'd imagine it could happen for large number values that include comma separation, e.g., 10,455,342.05.   That regex should match the ",455," part of that number, which could prove very problematic.

The only reason I mention this is if that regex is working perfectly when you're working with the document you need it for, you will want to remove it from the dictionary afterward.  Take it from someone who's been bitten in the posterior by having left things in the speech dictionary that I put there for testing purposes, and that later came into play where they were never intended to, making the screen reader output either incomprehensible or where it was omitting key information.

The "simpler" the regex the more likely it is to eventually capture something you really never intended for it to capture.  That doesn't mean they shouldn't be used when convenient, but you need to remember to "clean up after you're finished" so they don't come back to bite you in the posterior later.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next.  We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

        ~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner 

 


Re: How TO Use Windows 10 OCR

 

Hi,

Also, sometimes one must go one more level down i.e. press NVDA+Numpad down arrow (NvDA+Shift+Down arrow in laptop layout) in order to force the navigator object to be placed in the graphic proper (Windows 10 OCR’s job is to recognize whatever navigator object is pointing at).

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 2020 8:39 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How TO Use Windows 10 OCR

 

Are you absolutely, positively certain that the graphic that has focus in your example case has content that can be OCR processed?  I ask that not to be snarky, but I've seen rare occasions where something is mislabeled and contains, say, a photograph of an outdoor scene, which cannot, of course, be OCR processed.  And in those sorts of circumstances, I really don't know how you'd know that sans sighted assistance, though there very well may be a way I'm unaware of.  I know there are now picture describers, which might help.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next.  We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

        ~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner 

 


Re: How TO Use Windows 10 OCR

 

Are you absolutely, positively certain that the graphic that has focus in your example case has content that can be OCR processed?  I ask that not to be snarky, but I've seen rare occasions where something is mislabeled and contains, say, a photograph of an outdoor scene, which cannot, of course, be OCR processed.  And in those sorts of circumstances, I really don't know how you'd know that sans sighted assistance, though there very well may be a way I'm unaware of.  I know there are now picture describers, which might help.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next.  We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

        ~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner 

 


Re: Silencing Reading of Numbers in NVDA

 

On Wed, Dec 16, 2020 at 02:49 AM, Bhavya shah wrote:
Is there a good resource where I can understand the syntax of regular expressions?
-
There are, literally, thousands of online resources about regular expressions and how to use them, as well as a huge number of books (though I don't know how many would be available in either Braille or other accessible media).

When it comes to regular expression teaching materials, "good" generally means written in a style that you find approachable.  Some of the resources I've love the most for regular expression syntax are despised by others and vice versa.  I'd start by focusing on regular expression basics or regular expressions for beginners and, after having that bit at least somewhat nailed down, moving along into more complicated material.

I could be dead before I ever came to know half of what there is to know about regular expressions, and particularly if I were trying to understand the various "flavors" of regular expression processors out there.  For NVDA, it follows Python regex syntax, but for most of what ends up being done in dictionaries you're not constructing something that is likely to be different across the regex processors.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next.  We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

        ~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner 

 


How TO Use Windows 10 OCR

Bhavya shah
 

Dear all,

I am using NVDA 2020.3 on Windows 10's latest stable build. Whenever I
focus on a graphic on the web and press NVDA+R, NVDA says:
"Recognizing"
"Result document"
After that, I arrow up and down, move the review cursor around, but to
no avail as NVDA keeps saying "blank" consistently. I then need to
press Esc to go back to the graphic where I was, essentially returning
to where I started. I would note that I do not have the Tessarac OCR
add-on installed as I would like to leverage Windows 10 OCR. I am not
sure if I am doing something wrong, if I need to configure something
differently, or am somehow missing the scanned results.

I would truly appreciate any assistance in getting the hang of using
the Windows 10 OCR functionality via NVDA.

Thanks.

--
Best Regards
Bhavya Shah
Stanford University | Class of 2024
E-mail Address: bhavya.shah125@gmail.com
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/bhavyashah125/


How is verbosity decided

Gene
 

I might create a ticket for this but it doesn't look to me as though the system is designed to support such tickets. Where should such a question be discussed?

I'm really annoyed that NVDA has created new verbosity that, while it might be useful, should be off by default. And one item has no way to turn it off. The announcement of figure and out of figure has no justification for anyone but someone who is interested in evaluating a web page for some purpose such as to determine how structures are used, completely irrelevant to most or almost all readers. Yet we now constantly hear figure and out of figure. Its distracting, it wastes time, and as I said, there is no setting to turn it off and it shouldn't be on in the first place.

How are such decisions made and why does the prevailing philosophy seem to be, leave almost all browse mode verbosity on by default? Who cares about bloc quote and end of bloc quote. How many people want to hear every list and embedded lists announced. The whole philosopy and intent of these settings should be reviewed.

Gene


Re: Silencing Reading of Numbers in NVDA

Bhavya shah
 

Dear Tony,

Thanks a bunch! The second one didn't work unfortunately, but the
first one does, so I should be good to go. Thanks for suggesting the
Phonetic Punctuations add-on but I don't think that will be necessary
in my case. Is there a good resource where I can understand the syntax
of regular expressions? I would like to learn more about them in order
to be able to write them independently in the future.

Thanks.

On 12/15/20, Tony Malykh <anton.malykh@gmail.com> wrote:
Just use a simple regular expression:

,\d+,

Or use negative lookahead and lookbehind to preserve the commas,
something like:

(?<!,)\d+(?!,)

You can either do it via speech dictionary to remove them completely, or
you can use my Phonetic Punctuation add-on to replace it with some short
sound - so that you will at least be aware that there's a number there.

HTH

On 12/15/2020 9:33 PM, Bhavya shah wrote:
Dear all,

I use NVDA 2020.3 and would like to disable reporting of all digits.
The number could be of varying length and would be bounded on its left
and right by commas. This may come off as an odd request, but I
require this for a very specific usage case. I am guessing there is a
way to construct a speech dictionary entry to achieve this; if so, if
you could compose and share it, that would be massively helpful.

I would greatly appreciate any assistance with the above.

Thanks.




--
Best Regards
Bhavya Shah
Stanford University | Class of 2024
E-mail Address: bhavya.shah125@gmail.com
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/bhavyashah125/


Re: Silencing Reading of Numbers in NVDA

Tony Malykh
 

Just use a simple regular expression:

,\d+,

Or use negative lookahead and lookbehind to preserve the commas, something like:

(?<!,)\d+(?!,)

You can either do it via speech dictionary to remove them completely, or you can use my Phonetic Punctuation add-on to replace it with some short sound - so that you will at least be aware that there's a number there.

HTH

On 12/15/2020 9:33 PM, Bhavya shah wrote:
Dear all,

I use NVDA 2020.3 and would like to disable reporting of all digits.
The number could be of varying length and would be bounded on its left
and right by commas. This may come off as an odd request, but I
require this for a very specific usage case. I am guessing there is a
way to construct a speech dictionary entry to achieve this; if so, if
you could compose and share it, that would be massively helpful.

I would greatly appreciate any assistance with the above.

Thanks.


Silencing Reading of Numbers in NVDA

Bhavya shah
 

Dear all,

I use NVDA 2020.3 and would like to disable reporting of all digits.
The number could be of varying length and would be bounded on its left
and right by commas. This may come off as an odd request, but I
require this for a very specific usage case. I am guessing there is a
way to construct a speech dictionary entry to achieve this; if so, if
you could compose and share it, that would be massively helpful.

I would greatly appreciate any assistance with the above.

Thanks.

--
Best Regards
Bhavya Shah
Stanford University | Class of 2024
E-mail Address: bhavya.shah125@gmail.com
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/bhavyashah125/


Do NOT send Test Messages to See if You are Unbounced #adminnotice

 

Hello All,

            First, and most importantly, this is really not a request.  Don't do it! The glut of test messages on Groups.io groups in response to the ongoing Google Outage is straining both resources and nerves, and not just on the part of those running the various groups.  For those who want a more detailed explanation, keep reading . . .

Bouncing means that a given e-mail address cannot RECEIVE messages from the Groups.io service.  You may, or may not, be able to send messages from the very same address that do reach the group whether or not you will ever see them yourself.

What this means is that sending test messages really serves no purpose.  If you are currently in bounce status, you will not see your test message nor any of the responses to same so long as you remain in bounce status.  If you receive any message at all from the group after you've responded to a bounce probe, you're not in bounce status, and there's no point in sending a test message anyway.  Long and short:  Please don't send test messages.

The Google Outage is wider than originally thought, and has been cycling between fixed and not fixed for large groups of Gmail users.  On another group where I am moderator I have watched hundreds of automated bounce probes be generated after members have successfully unbounced themselves because theirs is one of the accounts that "went down again."  If you're getting repeated bounce probes, and you've responded to previous ones, that means your account is cycling between fixed and not fixed, and the minute Groups.io tries to send the next message to you, and it comes back to the service, you're classed as bounced again.  It's beyond the control of Groups.io.  You can follow the instructions in each bounce probe message you receive or, if you think yours is a "cycling account," just wait until you receive a bounce probe that isn't followed rapidly by others, and respond to that last one.

For those who want to know more about the bounce process, have a look at the following page from the Groups.io Owner's Manual:
https://groups.io/helpcenter/ownersmanual/1/additional-information/groups-io-bounce-handling 

Pay particular attention to the final sentence:  ! Important: Group owners and moderators cannot do anything to “unbounce” members’ accounts. Members must address the underlying problem themselves. 

The user addressing the problem means just respond to the bounce probes you receive following the instructions in said probe messages.  This whole Google Outage is turning into an ugly merry-go-round.  Unfortunately, these things happen, but blessedly pretty rarely.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next.  We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

        ~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner 

 


test

Rosemarie Chavarria
 

Hi, everyone,


This is a test to see if I really am unbounced.


Rosemarie


Re: To All Members - Regarding Bounce Probes

 

All of this is related to the Google Outage.  And the after effects of the outage are not over.  They're having "micro outages" still, and if a group e-mail is sent to anyone's address that is part of a micro outage, no matter how short, the whole bounce cycle begins anew again.  Groups.io can only take what Google sends back and act on that, and it looks like this could be a merry-go-round for some and not others.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next.  We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

        ~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner 

 


Re: To All Members - Regarding Bounce Probes

Jackie
 

This is the 2nd bounce notice I've received. I unbounced my account
only to have it bounce a short time later. My email address is fine,
my storage is not used up, so, to be honest, I'm really not sure what
to do at this point. Maybe it's God's way of telling me I don't need
the extra emails? :shrug: This only seemed to start after Big G's
outage yesterday.

Any suggestions welcome, though I understand moderators/owners are
basically powerless in this situation. But I think I am too.

On 12/15/20, Brian Vogel <britechguy@gmail.com> wrote:
First, if you receive a bounce probe message and activate the "unbounce"
link, rest assured that does work.  I thought that Groups.io sent an
automated response back confirming you are unbounced, but if they do not,
PLEASE, please, please assume that you are if you did not receive any error
message when activating the unbounce link.

There is nothing that Group Administration, on any group, can do to unbounce
members.  The whole idea behind a bounce probe is to not only detect that an
e-mail address is existent, but that someone's reading it and reacting to
content.  That is something that only the member who receives a bounce probe
can do.

For those who want additional information about how bouncing works, and from
the Group Admin perspective, see this page from the Groups.io Owner's
Manual, paying particular attention to the last line that starts with,
"Important!"
https://groups.io/helpcenter/ownersmanual/1/additional-information/groups-io-bounce-handling

*Please do not send test messages to see if you are unbounced*.  If you
receive a single message that anyone has sent, you are unbounced, and our
traffic is high enough that messages tend to come through pretty regularly.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042

[ Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to
overturn the votes certified by 4 states: ] Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling,
but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes
next.  We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John
Boehner





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To All Members - Regarding Bounce Probes

 

First, if you receive a bounce probe message and activate the "unbounce" link, rest assured that does work.  I thought that Groups.io sent an automated response back confirming you are unbounced, but if they do not, PLEASE, please, please assume that you are if you did not receive any error message when activating the unbounce link.

There is nothing that Group Administration, on any group, can do to unbounce members.  The whole idea behind a bounce probe is to not only detect that an e-mail address is existent, but that someone's reading it and reacting to content.  That is something that only the member who receives a bounce probe can do.

For those who want additional information about how bouncing works, and from the Group Admin perspective, see this page from the Groups.io Owner's Manual, paying particular attention to the last line that starts with, "Important!"     https://groups.io/helpcenter/ownersmanual/1/additional-information/groups-io-bounce-handling  

Please do not send test messages to see if you are unbounced.  If you receive a single message that anyone has sent, you are unbounced, and our traffic is high enough that messages tend to come through pretty regularly.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next.  We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

        ~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner 

 


Re: Accessible Google Drive Clients

Carlos Esteban Martínez Macías
 

Hi all.

You can use Backup and sink from Google, the client official of Google for Windows, but NVDA now says menu item in the context menu of the system tray, a problem of the application.

Also is possible use clients compatible with various clouds services, like Air Explorer.

Regards.

 

 

Carlos Esteban Martínez Macías.

Soporte a usuarios, comunidad hispanohablante de NVDA.

Web www.nvda.es

Experto certificado en NVDA

 

De: Sarah k Alawami
Enviado: lunes, 14 de diciembre de 2020 14:14
Para: nvda
Asunto: Re: [nvda] Accessible Google Drive Clients

 

I use an ftp client on the mac to access my google drive. I wonder if something like flash fsp or the client I use on windows that I have forgotten can do this. If so, give that a try. It won't back up and sync, but you can upload to it like dropbox etc.

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On 14 Dec 2020, at 10:11, Bhavya shah wrote:

Dear all,

I use NVDA version 2020.3 on Windows 10, and am on the lookout for an
alternative Google Drive client. I currently use Google's own Backup
and Sync utility, and my main issue with it is that it does not sync
shared folders. (Shift+Z no longer works.) Additionally, Backup and
Sync is a bit too resource-hungry for my liking and seems to sometimes
cause disproportionate loads. Any suggestions of third-party,
accessible and lightweight Google Drive clients for Windows 10 would
be massively helpful.

I would truly appreciate any assistance with the above.

Thanks.

--
Best Regards
Bhavya Shah
Stanford University | Class of 2024
E-mail Address: bhavya.shah125@...
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/bhavyashah125/

 


Re: Does NVDA turn role=application into Browse mode traps?

Samuel Kacer
 

Thanks Tyler! I can't believe I didn't know about that command, having used NVDA almost daily for 3 years now... Checking the NVDA user guide I can see this is covered in section 6.4


On Tue, Dec 15, 2020 at 4:44 PM Tyler Spivey <tspivey@...> wrote:
On 12/15/2020 7:34 AM, Samuel Kacer wrote:
> The problem I am running into though is very much what I
> described, namely once a user enters one of the application areas, they
> are stuck there and cant easily navigate back to the web content outside
> of it.
>

Try pressing CTRL+NVDA+space.






Re: Does NVDA turn role=application into Browse mode traps?

Tyler Spivey
 

On 12/15/2020 7:34 AM, Samuel Kacer wrote:
The problem I am running into though is very much what I described, namely once a user enters one of the application areas, they are stuck there and cant easily navigate back to the web content outside of it.
Try pressing CTRL+NVDA+space.


Does NVDA turn role=application into Browse mode traps?

Samuel Kacer
 

Hello,

I am just wondering why NVDA treats areas of web pages marked as applications with the role attribute the way it does. The problematic behavior I see is when the user enters the content inside of an application area on a web page, it seems they can't exit it using browse mode commands, i.e. navigating out with arrow keys, or jumping to a heading outside of the application area. Effectively, after entering an application area, the contents of it are treated as if they are the entire web document and browse mode only can get you around that subsection, but not out of it. The only way I've found to navigate out of the application area is by using object navigation.

To give an example, consider this simple web page:
<h1>Page title</h1>
<p>Some initial text.</p>
<div role="application">
Content inside application.<br />
<button>Some button</button>
</div>
<p>Some stuff after the application.</p>

When the user loads up this page in their browser, they can use arrow keys in browse mode to read there is the heading, some text, then an application, and some text after that. Now, if they enter the content inside the application by tabbing to it (which focuses them on a button inside), as far as I can tell, they are trapped in that application. Switching back to browse mode, when they arrow around, they can only read things inside the application area. Pressing shif + H doesnt jump to the heading at the beginning of the page.

The reason I am bringing this up is because I am working on a non-standard widget that doesn't behave like any of the standard ones like buttons, tables, edit fields, etc. I want to singal this fact to the user via its role. The widget can be embedded in many parts of a web document. The problem I am running into though is very much what I described, namely once a user enters one of the application areas, they are stuck there and cant easily navigate back to the web content outside of it.

I feel like there is something I am missing. What sort of design pattern should I implement to allow the user a practical way of exiting the application and getting back to the rest of the document. I would appreciate if someone could help me figure out how I am supposed to handle this!

Thanks,
Sam

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