Date   

Re: add-on for accessing the system tray

 

On Tue, Dec 8, 2020 at 07:11 PM, Gene wrote:
Also, unless the manual has changed, when I checked last, a year or two ago, no instruction was given for using the system tray.
-
Believe it or not, Gene, I don't expect the folks at NVAccess to explain how to use a feature of Windows that has been present literally for decades.

What you expect in documentation, and what I do, are two entirely different things.  NVDA documentation should not be teaching Windows basics.  It is entirely reasonabl to presume that a Windows user already knows about the System Tray and how it works.  They should also be presumed to know how SHIFT+F10 or the Applications/Context Menu key work.  These are not screen reader concepts.

But with this, I'm done, because this is so meta that it has only the most tenuous connection to NVDA.  The same things I said above would be applicable to documentation for Narrator, JAWS, and a number of now defunct screen readers.  Users should know what's controlling what, and if they need the training to get that information, or need help from their friends, classmates, colleagues, etc., to get it then they need to pursue those avenues.  It's not up to screen reader makers to teach basic Windows concepts in their documentation, except in passing as something screen reader specific is involved.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

If you think that you can think about a thing, inextricably attached to something else, without thinking of the thing it is attached to, then you have a legal mind.

        ~ Thomas Reed Powell

 


Re: sudden changes to Hulu's website

tim
 

Basicly you was told nicely that they are not going to test for useage with NVDA and only test what is listed on site.
They could be looking at NVDA as a security risk being free open source software just like companies do.

On 12/8/2020 6:50 PM, Gene wrote:
I don't believe what any accessibility specialist for a general organization says.  I don't automatically disbelieve it either, but I don't assume it is correct.  I'll try what is suggested if it makes sense or maybe even if it doesn't seem to and is not destructive but what does the person mean by no longer supports.  Does he/she mean that it was not tested with NVDA but was with JAWS?  The response talking about turning off the virtual pc cursor indicates that the site doesn't work properly with JAWS either.  Since we don't know how the site is tested, nor what the putative specialist means or knows, the statement is meaningless without further explanation.  In general, what works for web page accessibility in JAWS will work in NVDA.
Gene
-----Original Message----- From: Ame
Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 2020 5:43 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] sudden changes to Hulu's website
Well, this is no bug.  I was told by a chat agent that NVDA is no longer supported by Hulu.  That’s absolutely ridiculous.  I have NVDA because I can’t afford jaws,  Window eyes or any of the other commercial screen readers.  I can access Hulu’s content with narrator but it’s so clumsy as I said.  There’s no reason for them to do that.  I wonder who I could approach about getting them to reinstate support for NVDA.  Like I said, up till last Thursday afternoon, I never had a single problem navigating the site or accessing content.  The change was very sudden.  I’m beyond furious.


Re: add-on for accessing the system tray

Gene
 

There are a lot of NVDA users who will never know aboutor be a ;part of this or other groups. There are also those who get training or learn to use NVDA in all sorts of different ways. There are some things that are simply so much conventions that they should be incorporated. In Chicago, where I live, professional radio announcers mispronounce the street Goethe for the same reason I am discussing, it is so widespread that the mispronounciation is considered correct for that purpose.

Also, unless the manual has changed, when I checked last, a year or two ago, no instruction was given for using the system tray. In other words, how to execute double left click, single left click and right click is not discussed. You don't not include something that is a convention going back for two decades and not explain how to use the alternative.

And also, as I said, there are rare times when one method works and the other doesn't, so it can't be claimed that the dialog is never needed and that the direct use of the System tray completely duplicates the functionality of the dialog.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 2020 6:02 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] add-on for accessing the system tray

On Tue, Dec 8, 2020 at 06:41 PM, Gene wrote:
It is so standardized in screen-readers that it should be a part of NVDA, particularly since a lot of users will never know about the add-on.-
Gene, what is "standardized" during times of need can be, and often is, removed once the period of actual need has passed.

A lot of users will never know about the vast majority of what their chosen screen reader supports or doesn't support. The argument from that perspective is a non-starter. It's easy enough to research via web search, which you pointed out earlier. And it should be expected in 2020 that each and every participant in a venue such as this is versed in doing basic web searches. If you cannot, then you need to be learning how, period.

One does not focus on the least skilled as the common denominator, but the far more general case and skill set.
--


Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042

If you think that you can think about a thing, inextricably attached to something else, without thinking of the thing it is attached to, then you have a legal mind.

~ Thomas Reed Powell


Re: add-on for accessing the system tray

 

On Tue, Dec 8, 2020 at 06:41 PM, Gene wrote:
It is so standardized in screen-readers that it should be a part of NVDA, particularly since a lot of users will never know about the add-on.
-
Gene, what is "standardized" during times of need can be, and often is, removed once the period of actual need has passed.

A lot of users will never know about the vast majority of what their chosen screen reader supports or doesn't support.  The argument from that perspective is a non-starter.  It's easy enough to research via web search, which you pointed out earlier.  And it should be expected in 2020 that each and every participant in a venue such as this is versed in doing basic web searches.  If you cannot, then you need to be learning how, period.

One does not focus on the least skilled as the common denominator, but the far more general case and skill set.  
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

If you think that you can think about a thing, inextricably attached to something else, without thinking of the thing it is attached to, then you have a legal mind.

        ~ Thomas Reed Powell

 


Re: sudden changes to Hulu's website

Gene
 

I don't use Hulu so you can see if this works or helps. You evidently turned browse mode off and were able to do a search. After you do it, turn it on again with the same command and look at the page. See if you get useful information.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Ame
Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 2020 5:56 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] sudden changes to Hulu's website



I’d think so. I don’t have the foggiest idea what the heck to do. I hate Narrator. I hate it! I think what we have here at the end of the day is someone in the organization who knows just enough about assistive technology to be dangerous. Lol By the way, I tried the thing with browse mode and I was able to perform a search but I couldn’t access what I searched for even with browse mode on. Can you give me any futther ideas? I was able to take a baby step forward with browse mode. Now if I could just access the results of my search, I’ll be a happy lady.


Re: sudden changes to Hulu's website

 

On Tue, Dec 8, 2020 at 06:43 PM, Ame wrote:
I was told by a chat agent that NVDA is no longer supported by Hulu.
-
NVDA was never supported by Hulu, in the literal sense.  They've made some stupid decision to code their webpages in a non-standard way, which will likely cause issues beyond NVDA.

Websites that follow the common existing HTML conventions are accessible by every screen reader I know of (including a couple that are no longer supported).

Mind you, if they've decided to use some newly evolving option, that simply happens.  When it comes to web accessibility there's always an element of cat and mouse because the rate of change in coding conventions is fast and will remain fast.  The web is constantly under construction.

By the way, and this isn't just specific to this situation, take what support agents say with a big grain of salt.  Most of them have no idea what a screen reader even is (and, yes, I do mean that) and most companies, even large ones, do not devote resources to a specific accessibility tech support group.  Your random phone or chat agent is not likely to have any clue beyond what they can find in a script, if such exists, and have also been known to "wing it," often giving inaccurate information.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

If you think that you can think about a thing, inextricably attached to something else, without thinking of the thing it is attached to, then you have a legal mind.

        ~ Thomas Reed Powell

 


Re: sudden changes to Hulu's website

Ame
 

I’d think so.  I don’t have the foggiest idea what the heck to do.  I hate Narrator.  I hate it!  I think what we have here at the end of the day is someone in the organization who knows just enough about assistive technology to be dangerous. Lol  By the way, I tried the thing with browse mode and I was able to perform a search but I couldn’t access what I searched for even with browse mode on.  Can you give me any futther ideas?  I was able to take a baby step forward with browse mode.  Now if I could just access the results of my search, I’ll be a happy lady.


Re: sudden changes to Hulu's website

Guy Schlosser
 

I don’t blame you for being furious. I would be too. That’s crazy, and sorry to hear about the news.

On Dec 8, 2020, at 6:45 PM, Ame <abk043@...> wrote:



Well, this is no bug.  I was told by a chat agent that NVDA is no longer supported by Hulu.  That’s absolutely ridiculous.  I have NVDA because I can’t afford jaws,  Window eyes or any of the other commercial screen readers.  I can access Hulu’s content with narrator but it’s so clumsy as I said.  There’s no reason for them to do that.  I wonder who I could approach about getting them to reinstate support for NVDA.  Like I said, up till last Thursday afternoon, I never had a single problem navigating the site or accessing content.  The change was very sudden.  I’m beyond furious. 


Re: sudden changes to Hulu's website

Gene
 

I don't believe what any accessibility specialist for a general organization says. I don't automatically disbelieve it either, but I don't assume it is correct. I'll try what is suggested if it makes sense or maybe even if it doesn't seem to and is not destructive but what does the person mean by no longer supports. Does he/she mean that it was not tested with NVDA but was with JAWS? The response talking about turning off the virtual pc cursor indicates that the site doesn't work properly with JAWS either. Since we don't know how the site is tested, nor what the putative specialist means or knows, the statement is meaningless without further explanation. In general, what works for web page accessibility in JAWS will work in NVDA.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Ame
Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 2020 5:43 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] sudden changes to Hulu's website



Well, this is no bug. I was told by a chat agent that NVDA is no longer supported by Hulu. That’s absolutely ridiculous. I have NVDA because I can’t afford jaws, Window eyes or any of the other commercial screen readers. I can access Hulu’s content with narrator but it’s so clumsy as I said. There’s no reason for them to do that. I wonder who I could approach about getting them to reinstate support for NVDA. Like I said, up till last Thursday afternoon, I never had a single problem navigating the site or accessing content. The change was very sudden. I’m beyond furious.


Re: sudden changes to Hulu's website

g melconian <gmelconian619@...>
 

They probably want you to be on there mobile apps  whether that be I os or android .  that’s   where  they make most of  their profits from. 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Ame
Sent: Tuesday, December 8, 2020 3:44 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] sudden changes to Hulu's website

 

Well, this is no bug.  I was told by a chat agent that NVDA is no longer supported by Hulu.  That’s absolutely ridiculous.  I have NVDA because I can’t afford jaws,  Window eyes or any of the other commercial screen readers.  I can access Hulu’s content with narrator but it’s so clumsy as I said.  There’s no reason for them to do that.  I wonder who I could approach about getting them to reinstate support for NVDA.  Like I said, up till last Thursday afternoon, I never had a single problem navigating the site or accessing content.  The change was very sudden.  I’m beyond furious. 


Re: sudden changes to Hulu's website

Ame
 

Well, this is no bug.  I was told by a chat agent that NVDA is no longer supported by Hulu.  That’s absolutely ridiculous.  I have NVDA because I can’t afford jaws,  Window eyes or any of the other commercial screen readers.  I can access Hulu’s content with narrator but it’s so clumsy as I said.  There’s no reason for them to do that.  I wonder who I could approach about getting them to reinstate support for NVDA.  Like I said, up till last Thursday afternoon, I never had a single problem navigating the site or accessing content.  The change was very sudden.  I’m beyond furious. 


Re: add-on for accessing the system tray

Gene
 

It is needed on rare occasions. At times, you can't access something properly using the system tray itself and you can with the add-on. At times, the reverse is true.

And whether it is needed isn't really to the point. It has been the custom for screen-readers to provide a system tray dialog since Windows 98. At that time, that was the only way the system tray was accessible. It is so standardized in screen-readers that it should be a part of NVDA, particularly since a lot of users will never know about the add-on. Who knows how many users never learn about this list or other places where they would be encouraged to explore add-ons. At times, you just do something because it makes sense under existing conditions. NVDA developers believe that NVDA should do almost nothing outside of be a pure screen-reader. If taken too far, that is ideology and, as with all ideologies that are followed too dogmatically, results in bad decisions.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Lino Morales
Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 2020 5:24 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] add-on for accessing the system tray

Its a nice add-on, but not needed. WIN key B regardless of whatever
screen reader you use is great.

On 12/8/2020 6:21 PM, Bob Cavanaugh wrote:
Hi everyone,
I remember hearing from another user that I need an add-on to access
the system tray by pressing NVDA+F11. Can someone please send me the
link to that add-on? This is something else that I think should be
built into NVDA.
Thanks,
Bob





Re: add-on for accessing the system tray

 

On Tue, Dec 8, 2020 at 06:34 PM, Gene wrote:
Do a Google search for NVDA system tray add-on.
-
Or make a point of bookmarking the NVDA Community Add-Ons Website.  Right now, since that page is sorted by most recent update date, the systrayList add-on is at the bottom of the page.

While there's occasional discussion of an unofficial add-on, most of them, including systrayList, that come up repeatedly can be found on that page.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

If you think that you can think about a thing, inextricably attached to something else, without thinking of the thing it is attached to, then you have a legal mind.

        ~ Thomas Reed Powell

 


Re: add-on for accessing the system tray

Gene
 

Do a Google search for NVDA system tray add-on. You will find the page in the first results.

Gene

If you have problems, let us know. -----Original Message-----

Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Bob Cavanaugh
Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 2020 5:21 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] add-on for accessing the system tray

Hi everyone,
I remember hearing from another user that I need an add-on to access
the system tray by pressing NVDA+F11. Can someone please send me the
link to that add-on? This is something else that I think should be
built into NVDA.
Thanks,
Bob


Re: add-on for accessing the system tray

 

On Tue, Dec 8, 2020 at 06:21 PM, Bob Cavanaugh wrote:
This is something else that I think should be built into NVDA.
-
Why?  The system tray is entirely accessible using the built-in Windows keyboard shortcuts and then navigating it with any screen reader.

Creating additional shortcuts, particularly within a screen reader, for things that already exist makes no sense, and makes it more difficult when new functions have to be added to any screen reader since the number of keyboard shortcuts, or at least 2-key-press and 3-key-press ones, is getting tight.

As Lino Morales said, WinKey+B throws focus to the first item in the system tray, generally the notification chevron for the "overflow area" where seldom-but-not-never needed icons are kept, then right arrowing goes item by item through whatever you have set to show in the system tray until you hit the action center (or maybe even the desktop peek button).
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

If you think that you can think about a thing, inextricably attached to something else, without thinking of the thing it is attached to, then you have a legal mind.

        ~ Thomas Reed Powell

 


Re: add-on for accessing the system tray

Angel
 

There is a windows combination set of keys to access the system trey.  It is the windows key, plus b.

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Bob Cavanaugh
Sent: Tuesday, December 8, 2020 6:22 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] add-on for accessing the system tray

 

H

 


Virus-free. www.avast.com


Re: add-on for accessing the system tray

Carlos Esteban Martínez Macías
 

Hi all, this is the addon>

systrayList (nvda-project.org)

Regards.

 

 

Carlos Esteban Martínez Macías.

Soporte a usuarios, comunidad hispanohablante de NVDA.

Web www.nvda.es

Experto certificado en NVDA

 

De: Bob Cavanaugh
Enviado: martes, 8 de diciembre de 2020 18:22
Para: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Asunto: [nvda] add-on for accessing the system tray

 

H

 


Re: add-on for accessing the system tray

Lino Morales
 

Its a nice add-on, but not needed. WIN key B regardless of whatever screen reader you use is great.

On 12/8/2020 6:21 PM, Bob Cavanaugh wrote:
Hi everyone,
I remember hearing from another user that I need an add-on to access
the system tray by pressing NVDA+F11. Can someone please send me the
link to that add-on? This is something else that I think should be
built into NVDA.
Thanks,
Bob




Re: sudden changes to Hulu's website

Gene
 

The way to turn browse mode off in NVDA is NVDA key space bar. You turn it on with the same command.

You can see if that helps or works. With browse mode off, you are interacting directly with the page and I would think that if that works in JAWS, I would think there would be a reasonable chance it would work with NVDA.

In my earlier message, I said that I thought in many cases, there wouldn't be a correlation between what a sighted person sees and identifying accessibility problems in that way. it appears in this case, you can tell.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Guy Schlosser
Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 2020 3:35 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] sudden changes to Hulu's website


Ame, I have some insight to the Hulu access. I use jaws, but with the virtual cursor on, I can confirm that what you’re seeing here is the same thing I am. However, if I turn the virtual cursor off, I am able to press enter on things like my stuff, TV shows, etc., and explore things within those menus. The reason I thought to turn the virtual PC cursor off, is that Jaws is announcing these items as menus. I hope this helps, and if there’s a way to do something similar in NVDA, you’ll get this.

On Dec 8, 2020, at 3:02 PM, Ame <abk043@gmail.com> wrote:





I do have sighted help but not because I live with someone. I rely pretty heavily on the Microsoft disability answer desk when I face issues like this. Ironically, they didn’t see those things on my screen on the site but the Hulu agent tried to see if it did it on his end and it didn’t. He was able to see all available content. I just don’t get it. I think the first course of action will most likely be reaching out to the disability answer desk to see if my Chrome’s up to date or not and then I’ll go from there. It’ll be a real blessing if that’s what caused it.

.


add-on for accessing the system tray

Bob Cavanaugh <cavbob1993@...>
 

Hi everyone,
I remember hearing from another user that I need an add-on to access
the system tray by pressing NVDA+F11. Can someone please send me the
link to that add-on? This is something else that I think should be
built into NVDA.
Thanks,
Bob

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