Date   

Re: Web Page navigation

willmac@lantic.net
 

Thanks Gene.  This exactly what I want. An action to turn CAPS LOCK on or off to allow me to type text with Caps Lock off and after wards putting CAP LOCK on again.
 Thank you.
 
William
 

------ Original Message ------
From: "Gene" <gsasner@...>
Sent: 2016/05/16 5:47:35 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Web Page navigation
It sounds as though you are doing better in working with web pages.  That's good. 
 
I'm not sure what you want to do.  If you want to disable the caps lock key so that pressing it does nothing, that is not an NVDA setting.  But you can set NVDA so that the caps lock has to be pressed twice quickly to keep it from turning on or off. 
 
Issue the command insert n.  You can use either insert.
Down arrow to preferences.  Press enter.
Down arrow to keyboard settings.
Press enter.
Tab to the check box that says some thing like use caps lock as modifier.
Press the space bar to check the check box, then press enter.
You are now back where you started.  The dialog has closed.
Now issue the command insert control c to save the setting permanently.  You will hear something like configuration saved.  This will save all your current settings so be sure you haven't changed anything else that you don't want changed permanently. 
 
Gene
 

Sent: Monday, May 16, 2016 9:45 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Web Page navigation

 
Hi Gene,
 
At last I seem to have gone a stage further. You will not believe the effort I put into this.
 
As far as I can ascertain, I followed your tutorial faithfully.  What I did NOT do was give the keystroke "down arrow" time to work through the various options before it started reading.
 
Thank you for your patience and help.
Regards.
William.
PS. Is there a shortcut key to turn off Caps Lock while using NVDA
 
 
 
 
 
------ Original Message ------
From: "Gene" <gsasner@...>
Sent: 2016/05/13 6:38:08 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Web Page navigation
This is like a very short tutorial.  Trying what I describe may help you understand and work with what we have been discussing.
 
Let's use this very nonstandard web page to get to a much more typical one.  Open the page, make sure you are at the top with the command control home.
Now tab to the first story.  The first news story is:
Solidarity launches class action against GEPF
Follow that link by pressing enter.
You will be taken to the page with the story.  Starting at the top of the page, press h.  That will move you to a heading and as you continue to press it, you will be moved to other headings.  The heading that is the title of the story is where the article begins.  If you start reading from there by down arrowing or by using the read to end command, you will start hearing the article.  If you stop reading and press h two or three more times, you will see a heading that says your next story.  There will be a link to the next story either above or below the heading.  A heading is written using a different format to draw the reader's eye to the text of the heading.  You don't do anything with a heading except read it.  You would expect the link to be below the heading since the heading is not a link.  And if you down arrow, you will find the link.  You may find on some sites, that you have to up arrow, but usually, if the heading is not the link, you would down arrow. 
 
Gene
From: Gene
Sent: Friday, May 13, 2016 10:16 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Web Page navigation

This message is long but I'm not sure the material could have been adequately covered in a shorter message.
 
The site you are discussing is not a typical Internet site. 
First a comment or two about structures in general.  You don't open headings.  You move to them.  You follow links by pressing enter on them.  But the site you are working with has nothing but links.  That is very nonstandard.  Go to the page you asked about.  Either start reading or if you just want to see links on this page, start tabbing.  Follow links by pressing enter.  If you want to learn to work with the commands you are trying to work with, use a conventionally formatted site.  Lots of sites are more or less conventionally formatted.  But this site is so nonstandard that we can tell you how to work with this site but it is not representative of most other sites. 
 
Here is more information. 
 
On the page you gave a link for, most quick navigation keys will only give you messages such as no next heading or no next button, etc.  That's because there are none and wherever you are on the page, there are none below where you are.  The commands such as h move to the next heading below your current position.  On this page, no matter where you are, there are no headings below where you are.  There is nothing anywhere on the page but links and text. 
even at the top of the page moving down the entire page, there are none. 
 
All such commands, b for button, x for check box, etc. look for what they are supposed to look for moving down the page.  If they find what they are looking for, they move you to it.  If they don't find anything, you will stay where you are on the page.
 
I would suggest you get an NVDA tutorial and listen to sections you consider important.  A very well thought of tutorial is available here:
If you look through the page, you will see how it is organized and you will get an idea of what you want to listen to.  Some people learn better using written material but many people prefer tutorials and if you do, this is a good one.
 
As far as how the keys work in general, I don't know how many sites you've tried them on.  If you go to a more or less standard site, you should get responses from many of the keys. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----

Sent: Friday, May 13, 2016 9:01 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Web Page navigation

Hi Gene & Brian.
 
First of all in response to an earlier reference from Gene I must state categorically that I am a complete novice as regards NVDA.
I have heard the term "there are more than one way to skin a cat".  Well I am present not able to skin any cat.
I have read thru quite a bit of the short cut keys and they do not react to the way I expect.
 
That is why i submitted my originally URL http://t.digitalnewspaper.co.za/nl/jsp/m.jsp?c=%40fjNSuVTurK7VzhMSOxyzIucXl%2BKsnii1IrXYxuvhTwY%3D which I list again. Gene went to a lot of trouble detailing certain key strokes. However en this led to all sort of results.
I am not all interested in any  k links. If at all possible would it not be possible to give me the simplest method,  At this stage I am only interested in opening the headings and would want the key strokes required to read such articles continuously to the end.  Is this possible?.
 
Regards,

William
 
 
 
------ Original Message ------
From: "Brian Vogel" <britechguy@...>
Sent: 2016/05/12 6:15:20 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Web Page navigation

Gene,

           When the format of a given specific webpage is known, and in this case it is known to be nothing more than a list of links to articles, I don't think it's a disservice to anyone who cannot see to state that fact and to tell them that for this particular page using an elements list is the way to go.

           I'm not trying to teach general principles here, but to help someone get through a very specific webpage, and its child pages.

           And, yes, that's my opinion when I have a specific case under discussion, not a "how would one best go about this in the general case of an unfamiliar page."  Even then I'd encourage someone to give the elements list a look to get a quick snapshot regarding what links, headers, or landmarks might or might not be present.  There's more than one way to skin a cat.

Brian
-- 

Never underestimate the difficulty of changing false beliefs by facts. 
   ~ Henry Rosovsky

    



Textbox maxlength

mike@...
 

Hi all,

First of all I hope I am in the right forum to post a question like this, if not then could someone please point me in the right direction.

I am developing a web application that will have some braille display users.  The application will have several data entry pages and some fields will have a maxlength that will come into play.

Does anyone have any guidelines as to the best way to handle this for a screen reader / braille display?

Thanks in advance.

Mike


Re: Sighted instructins, was Fly Outsn?

 

Well for a while I used nero 5 that came with an old cd drive.
Then I used nero 6 but didn't like the locked express version so cracked that.
For a while I didn't upgrade, however after I got goldwave for cd extraction and cd burner xp for dvd/blueray/audio cd and data cd creation it solved my issues fully.

On 17/05/2016 7:54 p.m., Brian's Mail list account wrote:
I have a true call device and its files are stored on an sd card. A lot
of the ways to operate this software do not seem to have keyboard
shortcuts, and drag and drop is used here to do what in explorer we
would simply use copy for. Quite why software companies feel the need
toreinvent the wheel has always eluded me.


Another program from the past that had touse drag and drop was a version
of Nero, but I stopped using it when I found some much more intuitive
burners.
Brian

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----- Original Message ----- From: "Gene" <gsasner@ripco.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Monday, May 16, 2016 10:35 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Sighted instructins, was Fly Outsn?


Technically, I'm not sure why, but drag and drop are difficult for blind
people to work with. I have had to use drag and drop very rarely but
fortunately, there are usually other ways to accomplish tasks and, I
have seldom seen programs that require its use. I have seen some web
sites where something you want to do can't be done without drag and
drop. It appears to me that you can't do drag and drop while in browse
mode or the equivalent for JAWS, the Virtual PC cursor. You might be
able to do it when browse mode is off but that would depend on various
factors and I wouldn't count on it on a lot of pages.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Arianna Sepulveda
Sent: Monday, May 16, 2016 4:16 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Sighted instructins, was Fly Outsn?


Brian, now you have me curious. When are drag-and-drop operations
typically used? I'm planning on learning those commands for NVDA, but
would like to know when sited people typically use them. Well, not the
NVDA commands, ohbviously, but doing it with the mouse, so that I can
perform their keyboard equivalents. I also have JAWS, and plan to learn
the drag-and-drop keyboard equivalents for that screen reader, as well.




Thanks,
Ari

On May 16, 2016, at 9:22 AM, Brian Vogel <britechguy@gmail.com> wrote:


We can all find instances of instructions that are completely unsuited
to a blind or visually-impaired computer user and I understand the
concerns there. The fact is, though, for at least 90% plus of the kinds
of questions I'm routinely seeing on these forums I can find the answer
with a quick web search and the instructions presented are step-by-step
of the open this dialog, click on this option, check the checkbox, hit
OK type. That's what I'm talking about.

I hope that people have noticed that I try my darndest to give "screen
reader terminology focused" instructions when writing for this
audience. At the same time I will continue to make the point that for
instructions that don't use an untranslatable visual component like,
"Click on the purple icon," but instead say something like, "Click on
the Adobe Reader icon," you really should be able to directly translate
this to, "Find, select, and activate the Adobe Reader Icon." Like so
many things, what may be involved in "Find, select, and activate" can
vary wildly depending on how a given user has his or her environment
configured.

Also, just to semi-defend the sighted tech support person who asks,
even after having been told you can't see, "Can you see the blue screen
to your right?," it's very easy to literally forget what you've been
told when you've been working with someone over the phone for a while
and the entire "script" you're used to using has been working, and
generally it will. It's not any sort of malice and, very often, it comes
about as a direct result of the proficiency of the individual asking for
support such that the tech literally forgets during the course of the
interaction that they're dealing with someone who can't see.

It makes perfect sense to remind someone, gently at first but with more
force as they persist in giving instructions that you can't use after
they've been told, that you can't see and that they need to adjust the
instructions accordingly. It's a real challenge at times, particularly
for actions such as "drag and drop" that can be emulated via the
keyboard but that most people, including screen reader users, have no
idea how to do with the keyboard. This happens to be one of those
things that I constantly forget because it can most frequently be worked
around but, on very rare occasions, it can't and I have to figure out
how it's done with the screen reader commands again.

It should come as no surprise, though, that some materials written for
the Graphical User Interface environment will presume that the audience
is actually using the graphical user interface. It's the same kind of
"writing for your intended audience" that I think we all try to do as
much as possible.

Brian
--

Never underestimate the difficulty of changing false beliefs by facts.
~ Henry Rosovsky











Re: NVDA and tghe new iTunes V 12.4

 

I hope not.
While I do not care for it how else would one get music to their iphones from computer?
They already have done this with quicktime, people will still have to use it and well all those security issues from that and all.

On 17/05/2016 7:49 p.m., Brian's Mail list account wrote:
Did I not hear that Apple were going to freeze I tunes on windows soon?
Quite why they cannot make their web site be 'normal' so normal software
can use it is a source of mystery to me.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
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----- Original Message ----- From: "Lino Morales"
<linomorales001@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Monday, May 16, 2016 10:12 PM
Subject: [nvda] NVDA and tghe new iTunes V 12.4


Has anyone downloaded iTunes V 12.4 yet? I've not cause I'm sill
downloading IOS 9.3.2. If so is NVDA sill freezing sing the iTunes
Store and Apple Muisc?






Re: Sighted instructins, was Fly Outsn?

Brian's Mail list account BY <bglists@...>
 

I have a true call device and its files are stored on an sd card. A lot of the ways to operate this software do not seem to have keyboard shortcuts, and drag and drop is used here to do what in explorer we would simply use copy for. Quite why software companies feel the need toreinvent the wheel has always eluded me.


Another program from the past that had touse drag and drop was a version of Nero, but I stopped using it when I found some much more intuitive burners.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene" <gsasner@ripco.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Monday, May 16, 2016 10:35 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Sighted instructins, was Fly Outsn?


Technically, I'm not sure why, but drag and drop are difficult for blind people to work with. I have had to use drag and drop very rarely but fortunately, there are usually other ways to accomplish tasks and, I have seldom seen programs that require its use. I have seen some web sites where something you want to do can't be done without drag and drop. It appears to me that you can't do drag and drop while in browse mode or the equivalent for JAWS, the Virtual PC cursor. You might be able to do it when browse mode is off but that would depend on various factors and I wouldn't count on it on a lot of pages.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Arianna Sepulveda
Sent: Monday, May 16, 2016 4:16 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Sighted instructins, was Fly Outsn?


Brian, now you have me curious. When are drag-and-drop operations typically used? I'm planning on learning those commands for NVDA, but would like to know when sited people typically use them. Well, not the NVDA commands, ohbviously, but doing it with the mouse, so that I can perform their keyboard equivalents. I also have JAWS, and plan to learn the drag-and-drop keyboard equivalents for that screen reader, as well.




Thanks,
Ari

On May 16, 2016, at 9:22 AM, Brian Vogel <britechguy@gmail.com> wrote:


We can all find instances of instructions that are completely unsuited to a blind or visually-impaired computer user and I understand the concerns there. The fact is, though, for at least 90% plus of the kinds of questions I'm routinely seeing on these forums I can find the answer with a quick web search and the instructions presented are step-by-step of the open this dialog, click on this option, check the checkbox, hit OK type. That's what I'm talking about.

I hope that people have noticed that I try my darndest to give "screen reader terminology focused" instructions when writing for this audience. At the same time I will continue to make the point that for instructions that don't use an untranslatable visual component like, "Click on the purple icon," but instead say something like, "Click on the Adobe Reader icon," you really should be able to directly translate this to, "Find, select, and activate the Adobe Reader Icon." Like so many things, what may be involved in "Find, select, and activate" can vary wildly depending on how a given user has his or her environment configured.

Also, just to semi-defend the sighted tech support person who asks, even after having been told you can't see, "Can you see the blue screen to your right?," it's very easy to literally forget what you've been told when you've been working with someone over the phone for a while and the entire "script" you're used to using has been working, and generally it will. It's not any sort of malice and, very often, it comes about as a direct result of the proficiency of the individual asking for support such that the tech literally forgets during the course of the interaction that they're dealing with someone who can't see.

It makes perfect sense to remind someone, gently at first but with more force as they persist in giving instructions that you can't use after they've been told, that you can't see and that they need to adjust the instructions accordingly. It's a real challenge at times, particularly for actions such as "drag and drop" that can be emulated via the keyboard but that most people, including screen reader users, have no idea how to do with the keyboard. This happens to be one of those things that I constantly forget because it can most frequently be worked around but, on very rare occasions, it can't and I have to figure out how it's done with the screen reader commands again.

It should come as no surprise, though, that some materials written for the Graphical User Interface environment will presume that the audience is actually using the graphical user interface. It's the same kind of "writing for your intended audience" that I think we all try to do as much as possible.

Brian
--


Never underestimate the difficulty of changing false beliefs by facts.
~ Henry Rosovsky


Re: NVDA and tghe new iTunes V 12.4

Brian's Mail list account BY <bglists@...>
 

Did I not hear that Apple were going to freeze I tunes on windows soon? Quite why they cannot make their web site be 'normal' so normal software can use it is a source of mystery to me.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
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briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Lino Morales" <linomorales001@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Monday, May 16, 2016 10:12 PM
Subject: [nvda] NVDA and tghe new iTunes V 12.4


Has anyone downloaded iTunes V 12.4 yet? I've not cause I'm sill downloading IOS 9.3.2. If so is NVDA sill freezing sing the iTunes Store and Apple Muisc?



Re: Windows 10 with classic shell again

Brian's Mail list account BY <bglists@...>
 

Yes I know, I look sometimes at the network list and it give scant info, better is the network list in Belarc advisor. Sometimes one sees a machien described as a browse master or something like that, and o you can see the net addresses of all of the machines which if set dynamically by the system seems to be one of the problem areas about changing effects of when log in is prompted.
Its a bit of a mess really, and as somebody once observed, is it not funny how Microsoft stuff 'almost' works...:-)

Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Shaun Everiss" <sm.everiss@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Monday, May 16, 2016 8:23 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Windows 10 with classic shell again


Well I had to rejoin the homegroup yesterday, for whatever reason windows 10 kept complaining that it was invalid and then it crashed and I had to restart explorer.
I got round this by turning on all the machines, logging them in then it worked.
I am not sure what machine is the start of the chain but hmmm.



On 16/05/2016 7:41 p.m., Brian's Mail list account wrote:
No I still have severalxp machines on the neetwrk home group called
rather crypticall, Brian, and Ican get into those machines from 10 and 7
no issue its the other way around that is the issue.
Yes there are always are you sure and yes to all etc, but the actual
messages are not beig read in 10, but are in 7 and xp.

Due to the different wording and choices on 10, it can be hard to know
which alert it actually is when you can only hear the options and often
only hear them when doing alt tab to get them in focus.

The issue probably is that this 10 machine belonged to a sighted person
and I have no idea what has been altered, so the first thing I did after
installing nvda was to reset to defaults everthing I could find before
I started, but that does not seem to have protected me against these
issues. should i remove classic shell? I'm not sure whatit is doing for
me other than hiding the silly named searrch field till I want it and
adding a more normal start menu. The problem of grotty ribbon menus
which seem not to contain opetions you need a lot is presumably hard
coded by Microsoft.

I also dislike the new sounds in 10, they are too similar to each other
for my liking.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
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----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian Vogel" <britechguy@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, May 15, 2016 5:09 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Windows 10 with classic shell again


If you want to be able to access all the computers on your network
without passwords then you should set up a Homegroup (presuming all are
Win7 or later) and/or Workgroup and make sure that all the machines have
joined it. You can then set up your specific sharing of files, folders,
etc., via the Homegroup settings on the individual machines and accounts
on each machine.

All changes as far as search behavior can be tweaked in the Cortana &
Search settings. I long ago turned off "Include web results" because if
I want web results I'll do my own web search, thank you very much. I
want the Windows Search to stick to searching my machine.

You are never going to get away from the OS asking you for confirmation
on certain actions whether you are administrator or not and whether UAC
is active or not. This feature was introduced with Windows 7 because so
many people accidentally wiped out all sorts of stuff unintentionally.
All this does is add the "are you sure?" level of check and you get very
used to it after a short while (and it has saved my bacon on a couple of
occasions over the last decade due to "finger twitch" when I didn't mean
to do anything).

Brian


Re: Sighted instructins, was Fly Outsn?

Brian's Mail list account BY <bglists@...>
 

No actually, increasingly the search throws up a video of how to do it often with nothing but video and no commentary.
It seems to me that soon you will need to start providing audio translations of these videos. I went to a site the other day which was all pictures with words like In order to explain this, see the step by step screenshots below... As you can see this or that, and blahblah. I know pictures speak louder than words, but not to the blind as in this case the pictures were helpfully tagged as stage 1 through 6.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Vogel" <britechguy@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Monday, May 16, 2016 5:22 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Sighted instructins, was Fly Outsn?


We can all find instances of instructions that are completely unsuited to a blind or visually-impaired computer user and I understand the concerns there. The fact is, though, for at least 90% plus of the kinds of questions I'm routinely seeing on these forums I can find the answer with a quick web search and the instructions presented are step-by-step of the open this dialog, click on this option, check the checkbox, hit OK type. That's what I'm talking about.

I hope that people have noticed that I try my darndest to give "screen reader terminology focused" instructions when writing for this audience. At the same time I will continue to make the point that for instructions that don't use an untranslatable visual component like, "Click on the purple icon," but instead say something like, "Click on the Adobe Reader icon," you really should be able to directly translate this to, "Find, select, and activate the Adobe Reader Icon." Like so many things, what may be involved in "Find, select, and activate" can vary wildly depending on how a given user has his or her environment configured.

Also, just to semi-defend the sighted tech support person who asks, even after having been told you can't see, "Can you see the blue screen to your right?," it's very easy to literally forget what you've been told when you've been working with someone over the phone for a while and the entire "script" you're used to using has been working, and generally it will. It's not any sort of malice and, very often, it comes about as a direct result of the proficiency of the individual asking for support such that the tech literally forgets during the course of the interaction that they're dealing with someone who can't see.

It makes perfect sense to remind someone, gently at first but with more force as they persist in giving instructions that you can't use after they've been told, that you can't see and that they need to adjust the instructions accordingly. It's a real challenge at times, particularly for actions such as "drag and drop" that can be emulated via the keyboard but that most people, including screen reader users, have no idea how to do with the keyboard. This happens to be one of those things that I constantly forget because it can most frequently be worked around but, on very rare occasions, it can't and I have to figure out how it's done with the screen reader commands again.

It should come as no surprise, though, that some materials written for the Graphical User Interface environment will presume that the audience is actually using the graphical user interface. It's the same kind of "writing for your intended audience" that I think we all try to do as much as possible.
Brian
--
Never underestimate the difficulty of changing false beliefs by facts.
~ Henry Rosovsky


Re: Sighted instructins, was Fly Outsn?

Rosemarie Chavarria
 

Hi, Brian,

I use cut and paste a lot too--especially when I've put music files into my downloads folder. I think in order to use drag and drop, you have to lock the left mouse key on the numpad but I could be wrong. I only did it one time but that was years ago.

Rosemarie

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Monday, May 16, 2016 3:16 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Sighted instructins, was Fly Outsn?

Arianna,

Drag-and-drop is a very frequently used operation, in many contexts. In file explorer or windows explorer (depending on which version of Windows you're using) moving files and folders from place to place is most commonly done by drag-and-drop, which makes a lot of sense intuitively because the visuals are as though you've picked up the selected items and are carrying them from location A to location B. Of course, this is easily done by select, cut, and paste via the keyboard.

In Microsoft Word, one can position things like tables, images, and the like by dragging them and dropping them where you'd like them. Mind you, Word will often not put them precisely where you thought because it needs to flow text around it or the like, but text wrapping can be changed such that you get precisely what you want.

There are websites where there are quizzes or tests that operate by drag-and-drop. For instance, you have a list of terms on one side and definitions on the other. Often you'll drag-and-drop an electronic line between the term and what you believe to be its definition, very much like the paper version of a test that works this way.

The problem with drag-and-drop is that, in the vast majority of cases, is it's directly dependent on sight. You need to be able to see source and destination, regardless of context, and to know when you've reached your destination visually to do the drop. There are some situations where that may not be the case, but they're relatively few and far between, and I'm hard pressed at the moment to come up with a good example. It will probably occur to me right after I hit "send" or I'll encounter one by happenstance later this evening.

By the way, I seldom use drag and drop to move files anymore. I far more commonly cut and paste.

Brian
--

Never underestimate the difficulty of changing false beliefs by facts.
~ Henry Rosovsky


Re: Sighted instructins, was Fly Outsn?

Michael
 

Arianna,

I am attaching a .doc file describing drag and drop in JAWS.  I wrote this aboutten years ago. I don’t claim this is the best way to drag and drop. Ten years ago, I think I was using Windows 2000 and Jaws 5.

A lot has changed since then. I hope this helps.

 

 


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Arianna Sepulveda
Sent: Monday, May 16, 2016 4:16 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Sighted instructins, was Fly Outsn?

 

Brian, now you have me curious. When are drag-and-drop operations typically used? I'm planning on learning those commands for NVDA, but would like to know when sited people typically use them. Well, not the NVDA commands, ohbviously, but doing it with the mouse, so that I can perform their keyboard equivalents. I also have JAWS, and plan to learn the drag-and-drop keyboard equivalents for that screen reader, as well.

 

 

Thanks,

Ari


On May 16, 2016, at 9:22 AM, Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:

We can all find instances of instructions that are completely unsuited to a blind or visually-impaired computer user and I understand the concerns there.  The fact is, though, for at least 90% plus of the kinds of questions I'm routinely seeing on these forums I can find the answer with a quick web search and the instructions presented are step-by-step of the open this dialog, click on this option, check the checkbox, hit OK type.   That's what I'm talking about.

I hope that people have noticed that I try my darndest to give "screen reader terminology focused" instructions when writing for this audience.  At the same time I will continue to make the point that for instructions that don't use an untranslatable visual component like, "Click on the purple icon," but instead say something like, "Click on the Adobe Reader icon," you really should be able to directly translate this to, "Find, select, and activate the Adobe Reader Icon."  Like so many things, what may be involved in "Find, select, and activate" can vary wildly depending on how a given user has his or her environment configured.

Also, just to semi-defend the sighted tech support person who asks, even after having been told you can't see, "Can you see the blue screen to your right?," it's very easy to literally forget what you've been told when you've been working with someone over the phone for a while and the entire "script" you're used to using has been working, and generally it will.   It's not any sort of malice and, very often, it comes about as a direct result of the proficiency of the individual asking for support such that the tech literally forgets during the course of the interaction that they're dealing with someone who can't see.

It makes perfect sense to remind someone, gently at first but with more force as they persist in giving instructions that you can't use after they've been told, that you can't see and that they need to adjust the instructions accordingly.   It's a real challenge at times, particularly for actions such as "drag and drop" that can be emulated via the keyboard but that most people, including screen reader users, have no idea how to do with the keyboard.  This happens to be one of those things that I constantly forget because it can most frequently be worked around but, on very rare occasions, it can't and I have to figure out how it's done with the screen reader commands again.

It should come as no surprise, though, that some materials written for the Graphical User Interface environment will presume that the audience is actually using the graphical user interface.  It's the same kind of "writing for your intended audience" that I think we all try to do as much as possible.

Brian
-- 

Never underestimate the difficulty of changing false beliefs by facts. 

   ~ Henry Rosovsky

    

 


Re: Sighted instructins, was Fly Outsn?

 

Arianna,

           Drag-and-drop is a very frequently used operation, in many contexts.  In file explorer or windows explorer (depending on which version of Windows you're using) moving files and folders from place to place is most commonly done by drag-and-drop, which makes a lot of sense intuitively because the visuals are as though you've picked up the selected items and are carrying them from location A to location B.  Of course, this is easily done by select, cut, and paste via the keyboard.

           In Microsoft Word, one can position things like tables, images, and the like by dragging them and dropping them where you'd like them.  Mind you, Word will often not put them precisely where you thought because it needs to flow text around it or the like, but text wrapping can be changed such that you get precisely what you want.

           There are websites where there are quizzes or tests that operate by drag-and-drop.  For instance, you have a list of terms on one side and definitions on the other.  Often you'll drag-and-drop an electronic line between the term and what you believe to be its definition, very much like the paper version of a test that works this way.

            The problem with drag-and-drop is that, in the vast majority of cases, is it's directly dependent on sight.  You need to be able to see source and destination, regardless of context, and to know when you've reached your destination visually to do the drop.  There are some situations where that may not be the case, but they're relatively few and far between, and I'm hard pressed at the moment to come up with a good example.  It will probably occur to me right after I hit "send" or I'll encounter one by happenstance later this evening.

            By the way, I seldom use drag and drop to move files anymore.  I far more commonly cut and paste.

Brian
-- 

Never underestimate the difficulty of changing false beliefs by facts. 
   ~ Henry Rosovsky

    



Re: Sighted instructins, was Fly Outsn?

Gene
 

Technically, I'm not sure why, but drag and drop are difficult for blind people to work with.  I have had to use drag and drop very rarely but fortunately, there are usually other ways to accomplish     tasks and, I have seldom seen programs that require its use.  I have seen some web sites where something you want to do can't be done without drag and drop.  It appears to me that you can't do drag and drop while in browse mode or the equivalent for JAWS, the Virtual PC cursor.  You might be able to do it when browse mode is off but that would depend on various factors and I wouldn't count on it on a lot of pages. 
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, May 16, 2016 4:16 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Sighted instructins, was Fly Outsn?

Brian, now you have me curious. When are drag-and-drop operations typically used? I'm planning on learning those commands for NVDA, but would like to know when sited people typically use them. Well, not the NVDA commands, ohbviously, but doing it with the mouse, so that I can perform their keyboard equivalents. I also have JAWS, and plan to learn the drag-and-drop keyboard equivalents for that screen reader, as well.


Thanks,
Ari

On May 16, 2016, at 9:22 AM, Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:

We can all find instances of instructions that are completely unsuited to a blind or visually-impaired computer user and I understand the concerns there.  The fact is, though, for at least 90% plus of the kinds of questions I'm routinely seeing on these forums I can find the answer with a quick web search and the instructions presented are step-by-step of the open this dialog, click on this option, check the checkbox, hit OK type.   That's what I'm talking about.

I hope that people have noticed that I try my darndest to give "screen reader terminology focused" instructions when writing for this audience.  At the same time I will continue to make the point that for instructions that don't use an untranslatable visual component like, "Click on the purple icon," but instead say something like, "Click on the Adobe Reader icon," you really should be able to directly translate this to, "Find, select, and activate the Adobe Reader Icon."  Like so many things, what may be involved in "Find, select, and activate" can vary wildly depending on how a given user has his or her environment configured.

Also, just to semi-defend the sighted tech support person who asks, even after having been told you can't see, "Can you see the blue screen to your right?," it's very easy to literally forget what you've been told when you've been working with someone over the phone for a while and the entire "script" you're used to using has been working, and generally it will.   It's not any sort of malice and, very often, it comes about as a direct result of the proficiency of the individual asking for support such that the tech literally forgets during the course of the interaction that they're dealing with someone who can't see.

It makes perfect sense to remind someone, gently at first but with more force as they persist in giving instructions that you can't use after they've been told, that you can't see and that they need to adjust the instructions accordingly.   It's a real challenge at times, particularly for actions such as "drag and drop" that can be emulated via the keyboard but that most people, including screen reader users, have no idea how to do with the keyboard.  This happens to be one of those things that I constantly forget because it can most frequently be worked around but, on very rare occasions, it can't and I have to figure out how it's done with the screen reader commands again.

It should come as no surprise, though, that some materials written for the Graphical User Interface environment will presume that the audience is actually using the graphical user interface.  It's the same kind of "writing for your intended audience" that I think we all try to do as much as possible.

Brian
-- 

Never underestimate the difficulty of changing false beliefs by facts. 
   ~ Henry Rosovsky

    



Re: extended release version of Firefox /was/ embedded object in Firefox

Gene
 

You can read about it here and a download link is provided on the page:
The extended release version allows you to use the same version of the program for a much longer time and only receive security updates.  The page says that it is intended for businesses and organizations but there is no restriction on who downloads and uses it.  Also, although they suggest you join a user forum, there is no need to do so.  The installer never checks to see if you are a personal user or a business or organization.  There is no question about whether you have joined the suggested group.

Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, May 16, 2016 3:45 PM
Subject: Re: extended release version of Firefox /was/ [nvda] embedded object in Firefox

Hi Gene,
what is the "extended release version of Firefox" and how is that different than firefox in general?
Thanks-- it's appreciated.
You wrote, in part:
... you may save yourself from these kinds of problems by using the extended release version of Firefox which doesn't update the actual program at all often...
--------------------------------------------
On Sat, 5/14/16, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:

 Subject: Re: [nvda] embedded object in Firefox
 To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
 Date: Saturday, May 14, 2016, 7:52 AM
 
 
 


 
 Also, it should be noted
 that you may save yourself
 from these kinds of problems by using the extended release
 version of Firefox
 which doesn't update the actual program at all
 often.  I think it only
 updates the actual program once a year or once every two
 years.  It
 receives security updates so it remains current from that
 standpoint but the
 program itself is not altered for long periods of
 time.  I am saying that a
 year or two goes by between version updates.  How soon
 you get a version
 update depends on when one is scheduled.  If you use
 the extended release
 version at the beginning of the cycle, you will have the
 full cycle to
 wait.  If you start using it a week before the
 infrequent update, you will
 get an update in a week.  I believe there is a
 good amount of
 time before the next version update but I haven't
 checked in awhile and my
 memory may be incorrect.
  
 Gene
 
 ----- Original Message -----
 
 
 From: Gene
 Sent: Saturday, May 14, 2016 6:40 AM
 To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
 
 Subject: Re: [nvda] embedded object in
 Firefox
 
 
 In your message concerning
 Flash and html5, which I
 didn't keep, so I'm writing from my recollection, it
 appears you said that flash
 didn't play well in XP.  I have never had problems
 related to XP
 specifically and Flash.  Even on a slow machine, Flash
 played
 properly.  It's HTML5 that doesn't play well on
 both of my XP machines and
 one should certainly be more than fast enough to play HTML5
 audio content
 properly. 
  
 Gene
 
 ----- Original Message -----
 
 
 From: Gene
 Sent: Friday, May 13, 2016 3:11 PM
 To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
 
 Subject: Re: [nvda] embedded object in
 Firefox
 
 
 Disabling the Flash player
 may or may not solve the
 problem.  If HTML5 is available from the site, the
 HTML5 code is usually
 accessible and will likely allow you to play the audio if
 the Flash player being
 used is inaccessible.  But just disabling Flash may
 keep you from listening
 to audio you want to hear.  It depends on whether the
 site in question
 supports HTML5 at this time.  Many sites do and many
 don't.  I expect
 there is a way to make HTML the default choice which would
 allow the site to
 give you Flash content if necessary.  If this option is
 available, it would
 be a browser setting or would be made available in a
 plugin.  I don't know
 enough to comment further.  And it should be pointed
 out that I've tested
 with two XP machines and HTML audio doesn't play
 properly even though it's
 supposed to.  It appears that HTML5 isn't properly
 compatible with XP, at
 least not at this time and it might never be.  I have
 tested with both
 Chrome and Firefox with bad results.
  
 Gene
 
 ----- Original Message -----
 
 
 From: Pete
 Sent: Friday, May 13, 2016 2:03 PM
 To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
 
 Subject: Re: [nvda] embedded object in
 Firefox
 
 
    I disabled adobe flash player for this vary
 reason,
    I get warnings about flash player being
 disabled but the
 audio still
 plays,
    not sure what is actually playing the
 audio,
    using fire fox 46.0 win 7 64 pro nvda
 latest.
    Pete
 
 
 On 5/7/2016 10:06 AM, Cearbhall
 O'Meadhra wrote:
 > Hi,
 >
 > I found a problem in Firefox when
 attempting to listen to a sample of an
 > audio book in the BorrowBox
 library system. I don't know if this is an NVDA
 > problem or exclusively a
 Firefox Flash Player issue. or if Bolinda need to
 > do something with
 their Java script. I should mention that the sighted user
 > has no problem
 playing the audio sample using a mouse.
 >
 > I am using Windows 10,,
 NVDA 2016.1 and Firefox46.1 on a desktop PC.
 >
 > If List members
 would like to see the problem for themselves I recommend
 the
 > following
 url:
 > https://fe.bolindadigital.com/wldcs_bol_fo/b2i/productOverview.html?b2bSite=
 >
 4834&browseItemId=366096&fromPage=1
 > It is not necessary to sign
 in to sample the reading of a title.
 >
 > Here is a typical audio
 book display:
 >
 > --Start of clip -----------------------
 >
 link graphic Railway Viaduct
 > embedded object unavailable (this should
 say "Preview" but doesn't!)
 > Link Reserve
 > On Loan, Available on
 22/05/16
 > Link Railway Viaduct
 > Link Edward Marston
 > Read
 by Sam Dastor
 > Crime & Thriller, Historical Fiction
 >
 eAudiobook - Unabridged
 > ---end of clip
 ------------------
 >
 > The player for the audio sample is activated
 by an "embedded object" that is
 > flagged by NVDA as "not being
 available". The BorrowBox help page advises
 > that Adobe flash must be
 active to enable audio sampling of each title. I
 > have Adobe flash
 installed and active. For example, I can play any song in
 > YouTube in
 Firefox without any problem.
 >
 > After many weeks of failing to play
 the preview, I found the following
 > workaround using
 NVDA:
 >
 > >From the top of the web page select eAudio if not
 already selected. Then
 > press "g" to find a book title. If the
 next   object after pressing
 > down-arrow once is "embedded
 Object" then you have an audio book and we can
 > start.
 >
 >
 Here is the full sequence of steps:
 > 1. Press G for the graphic of the
 book title;
 > 2. Press down-arrow once to the embedded object. You
 should
 hear "Embedded
 > Object not available";
 > 3. Press NVDA + numpad
 Enter to activate the embedded object. You should
 > hear "Embedded Object
 Unavailable Activate";
 > 4. Press right arrow once. You should hear
 ""Space";
 > 5. Press the space bar  to start and stop the
 sample
 audio of the narrator
 > speaking.
 >
 > If pressing the space
 bar does not act as a toggle and the enter key does
 > not do the job
 either:
 > 6. Press right arrow once;
 > 7. Press space bar or main
 keyboard enter to play and stop playing the audio
 >
 sample.
 >
 > Can anyone advise what to do about this?
 > A. Is
 it an NVDA problem?
 > B. Is it a Firefox problem?
 > c. Is it a
 BorrowBox problem for the developer Bolinda to see to?
 >
 >
 >
 All the best,
 >
 > Cearbhall
 >
 > m +353 (0)833323487 Ph:
 _353 (0)1-2864623 e: cearbhall.omeadhra@...
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 
 >
 >
 
 
 
 
 
 




Re: Sighted instructins, was Fly Outsn?

Arianna Sepulveda
 

Brian, now you have me curious. When are drag-and-drop operations typically used? I'm planning on learning those commands for NVDA, but would like to know when sited people typically use them. Well, not the NVDA commands, ohbviously, but doing it with the mouse, so that I can perform their keyboard equivalents. I also have JAWS, and plan to learn the drag-and-drop keyboard equivalents for that screen reader, as well.


Thanks,
Ari

On May 16, 2016, at 9:22 AM, Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:

We can all find instances of instructions that are completely unsuited to a blind or visually-impaired computer user and I understand the concerns there.  The fact is, though, for at least 90% plus of the kinds of questions I'm routinely seeing on these forums I can find the answer with a quick web search and the instructions presented are step-by-step of the open this dialog, click on this option, check the checkbox, hit OK type.   That's what I'm talking about.

I hope that people have noticed that I try my darndest to give "screen reader terminology focused" instructions when writing for this audience.  At the same time I will continue to make the point that for instructions that don't use an untranslatable visual component like, "Click on the purple icon," but instead say something like, "Click on the Adobe Reader icon," you really should be able to directly translate this to, "Find, select, and activate the Adobe Reader Icon."  Like so many things, what may be involved in "Find, select, and activate" can vary wildly depending on how a given user has his or her environment configured.

Also, just to semi-defend the sighted tech support person who asks, even after having been told you can't see, "Can you see the blue screen to your right?," it's very easy to literally forget what you've been told when you've been working with someone over the phone for a while and the entire "script" you're used to using has been working, and generally it will.   It's not any sort of malice and, very often, it comes about as a direct result of the proficiency of the individual asking for support such that the tech literally forgets during the course of the interaction that they're dealing with someone who can't see.

It makes perfect sense to remind someone, gently at first but with more force as they persist in giving instructions that you can't use after they've been told, that you can't see and that they need to adjust the instructions accordingly.   It's a real challenge at times, particularly for actions such as "drag and drop" that can be emulated via the keyboard but that most people, including screen reader users, have no idea how to do with the keyboard.  This happens to be one of those things that I constantly forget because it can most frequently be worked around but, on very rare occasions, it can't and I have to figure out how it's done with the screen reader commands again.

It should come as no surprise, though, that some materials written for the Graphical User Interface environment will presume that the audience is actually using the graphical user interface.  It's the same kind of "writing for your intended audience" that I think we all try to do as much as possible.

Brian
-- 

Never underestimate the difficulty of changing false beliefs by facts. 
   ~ Henry Rosovsky

    



NVDA and tghe new iTunes V 12.4

Lino Morales
 

Has anyone downloaded iTunes V 12.4 yet? I've not cause I'm sill downloading IOS 9.3.2. If so is NVDA sill freezing sing the iTunes Store and Apple Muisc?


Re: extended release version of Firefox /was/ embedded object in Firefox

Laurie Mehta
 

Hi Gene,
what is the "extended release version of Firefox" and how is that different than firefox in general?
Thanks-- it's appreciated.
You wrote, in part:
... you may save yourself from these kinds of problems by using the extended release version of Firefox which doesn't update the actual program at all often...
--------------------------------------------

On Sat, 5/14/16, Gene <gsasner@ripco.com> wrote:

Subject: Re: [nvda] embedded object in Firefox
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Date: Saturday, May 14, 2016, 7:52 AM






Also, it should be noted
that you may save yourself
from these kinds of problems by using the extended release
version of Firefox
which doesn't update the actual program at all
often.  I think it only
updates the actual program once a year or once every two
years.  It
receives security updates so it remains current from that
standpoint but the
program itself is not altered for long periods of
time.  I am saying that a
year or two goes by between version updates.  How soon
you get a version
update depends on when one is scheduled.  If you use
the extended release
version at the beginning of the cycle, you will have the
full cycle to
wait.  If you start using it a week before the
infrequent update, you will
get an update in a week.  I believe there is a
good amount of
time before the next version update but I haven't
checked in awhile and my
memory may be incorrect.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----


From: Gene
Sent: Saturday, May 14, 2016 6:40 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] embedded object in
Firefox


In your message concerning
Flash and html5, which I
didn't keep, so I'm writing from my recollection, it
appears you said that flash
didn't play well in XP.  I have never had problems
related to XP
specifically and Flash.  Even on a slow machine, Flash
played
properly.  It's HTML5 that doesn't play well on
both of my XP machines and
one should certainly be more than fast enough to play HTML5
audio content
properly. 
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----


From: Gene
Sent: Friday, May 13, 2016 3:11 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] embedded object in
Firefox


Disabling the Flash player
may or may not solve the
problem.  If HTML5 is available from the site, the
HTML5 code is usually
accessible and will likely allow you to play the audio if
the Flash player being
used is inaccessible.  But just disabling Flash may
keep you from listening
to audio you want to hear.  It depends on whether the
site in question
supports HTML5 at this time.  Many sites do and many
don't.  I expect
there is a way to make HTML the default choice which would
allow the site to
give you Flash content if necessary.  If this option is
available, it would
be a browser setting or would be made available in a
plugin.  I don't know
enough to comment further.  And it should be pointed
out that I've tested
with two XP machines and HTML audio doesn't play
properly even though it's
supposed to.  It appears that HTML5 isn't properly
compatible with XP, at
least not at this time and it might never be.  I have
tested with both
Chrome and Firefox with bad results.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----


From: Pete
Sent: Friday, May 13, 2016 2:03 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] embedded object in
Firefox


   I disabled adobe flash player for this vary
reason,
   I get warnings about flash player being
disabled but the
audio still
plays,
   not sure what is actually playing the
audio,
   using fire fox 46.0 win 7 64 pro nvda
latest.
   Pete


On 5/7/2016 10:06 AM, Cearbhall
O'Meadhra wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I found a problem in Firefox when
attempting to listen to a sample of an
> audio book in the BorrowBox
library system. I don't know if this is an NVDA
> problem or exclusively a
Firefox Flash Player issue. or if Bolinda need to
> do something with
their Java script. I should mention that the sighted user
> has no problem
playing the audio sample using a mouse.
>
> I am using Windows 10,,
NVDA 2016.1 and Firefox46.1 on a desktop PC.
>
> If List members
would like to see the problem for themselves I recommend
the
> following
url:
> https://fe.bolindadigital.com/wldcs_bol_fo/b2i/productOverview.html?b2bSite=
>
4834&browseItemId=366096&fromPage=1
> It is not necessary to sign
in to sample the reading of a title.
>
> Here is a typical audio
book display:
>
> --Start of clip -----------------------
>
link graphic Railway Viaduct
> embedded object unavailable (this should
say "Preview" but doesn't!)
> Link Reserve
> On Loan, Available on
22/05/16
> Link Railway Viaduct
> Link Edward Marston
> Read
by Sam Dastor
> Crime & Thriller, Historical Fiction
>
eAudiobook - Unabridged
> ---end of clip
------------------
>
> The player for the audio sample is activated
by an "embedded object" that is
> flagged by NVDA as "not being
available". The BorrowBox help page advises
> that Adobe flash must be
active to enable audio sampling of each title. I
> have Adobe flash
installed and active. For example, I can play any song in
> YouTube in
Firefox without any problem.
>
> After many weeks of failing to play
the preview, I found the following
> workaround using
NVDA:
>
> >From the top of the web page select eAudio if not
already selected. Then
> press "g" to find a book title. If the
next   object after pressing
> down-arrow once is "embedded
Object" then you have an audio book and we can
> start.
>
>
Here is the full sequence of steps:
> 1. Press G for the graphic of the
book title;
> 2. Press down-arrow once to the embedded object. You
should
hear "Embedded
> Object not available";
> 3. Press NVDA + numpad
Enter to activate the embedded object. You should
> hear "Embedded Object
Unavailable Activate";
> 4. Press right arrow once. You should hear
""Space";
> 5. Press the space bar  to start and stop the
sample
audio of the narrator
> speaking.
>
> If pressing the space
bar does not act as a toggle and the enter key does
> not do the job
either:
> 6. Press right arrow once;
> 7. Press space bar or main
keyboard enter to play and stop playing the audio
>
sample.
>
> Can anyone advise what to do about this?
> A. Is
it an NVDA problem?
> B. Is it a Firefox problem?
> c. Is it a
BorrowBox problem for the developer Bolinda to see to?
>
>
>
All the best,
>
> Cearbhall
>
> m +353 (0)833323487 Ph:
_353 (0)1-2864623 e: cearbhall.omeadhra@blbc.ie
>
>
>
>
>
>

>
>


Re: Windows 10 with classic shell again

 

Well I had to rejoin the homegroup yesterday, for whatever reason windows 10 kept complaining that it was invalid and then it crashed and I had to restart explorer.
I got round this by turning on all the machines, logging them in then it worked.
I am not sure what machine is the start of the chain but hmmm.

On 16/05/2016 7:41 p.m., Brian's Mail list account wrote:
No I still have severalxp machines on the neetwrk home group called
rather crypticall, Brian, and Ican get into those machines from 10 and 7
no issue its the other way around that is the issue.
Yes there are always are you sure and yes to all etc, but the actual
messages are not beig read in 10, but are in 7 and xp.

Due to the different wording and choices on 10, it can be hard to know
which alert it actually is when you can only hear the options and often
only hear them when doing alt tab to get them in focus.

The issue probably is that this 10 machine belonged to a sighted person
and I have no idea what has been altered, so the first thing I did after
installing nvda was to reset to defaults everthing I could find before
I started, but that does not seem to have protected me against these
issues. should i remove classic shell? I'm not sure whatit is doing for
me other than hiding the silly named searrch field till I want it and
adding a more normal start menu. The problem of grotty ribbon menus
which seem not to contain opetions you need a lot is presumably hard
coded by Microsoft.

I also dislike the new sounds in 10, they are too similar to each other
for my liking.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian Vogel" <britechguy@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, May 15, 2016 5:09 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Windows 10 with classic shell again


If you want to be able to access all the computers on your network
without passwords then you should set up a Homegroup (presuming all are
Win7 or later) and/or Workgroup and make sure that all the machines have
joined it. You can then set up your specific sharing of files, folders,
etc., via the Homegroup settings on the individual machines and accounts
on each machine.

All changes as far as search behavior can be tweaked in the Cortana &
Search settings. I long ago turned off "Include web results" because if
I want web results I'll do my own web search, thank you very much. I
want the Windows Search to stick to searching my machine.

You are never going to get away from the OS asking you for confirmation
on certain actions whether you are administrator or not and whether UAC
is active or not. This feature was introduced with Windows 7 because so
many people accidentally wiped out all sorts of stuff unintentionally.
All this does is add the "are you sure?" level of check and you get very
used to it after a short while (and it has saved my bacon on a couple of
occasions over the last decade due to "finger twitch" when I didn't mean
to do anything).

Brian


Re: Sighted instructins, was Fly Outsn?

Rosemarie Chavarria
 

Hi, Brian,

Yes, you do a great job in giving screen reader instructions. Yes, there were times when I had to use force when talking to a tech person on the phone. I started out gently with this person but when he kept insisting that I "click on the blue screen", that's when I got very irritated and hung up. When I took computer classes at our Orange County Braille Institute, one of the first things I learned was how to emulate mouse clicks using Jaws. I agree with you that people should be able to follow instructions like "click on adobe" or "tab to the checkbox and check it with the space bar".

Thank you for making this clear for us. I know you try to do your best and that's all that counts.

Rosemarie

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Monday, May 16, 2016 9:23 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Sighted instructins, was Fly Outsn?

We can all find instances of instructions that are completely unsuited to a blind or visually-impaired computer user and I understand the concerns there. The fact is, though, for at least 90% plus of the kinds of questions I'm routinely seeing on these forums I can find the answer with a quick web search and the instructions presented are step-by-step of the open this dialog, click on this option, check the checkbox, hit OK type. That's what I'm talking about.

I hope that people have noticed that I try my darndest to give "screen reader terminology focused" instructions when writing for this audience. At the same time I will continue to make the point that for instructions that don't use an untranslatable visual component like, "Click on the purple icon," but instead say something like, "Click on the Adobe Reader icon," you really should be able to directly translate this to, "Find, select, and activate the Adobe Reader Icon." Like so many things, what may be involved in "Find, select, and activate" can vary wildly depending on how a given user has his or her environment configured.

Also, just to semi-defend the sighted tech support person who asks, even after having been told you can't see, "Can you see the blue screen to your right?," it's very easy to literally forget what you've been told when you've been working with someone over the phone for a while and the entire "script" you're used to using has been working, and generally it will. It's not any sort of malice and, very often, it comes about as a direct result of the proficiency of the individual asking for support such that the tech literally forgets during the course of the interaction that they're dealing with someone who can't see.

It makes perfect sense to remind someone, gently at first but with more force as they persist in giving instructions that you can't use after they've been told, that you can't see and that they need to adjust the instructions accordingly. It's a real challenge at times, particularly for actions such as "drag and drop" that can be emulated via the keyboard but that most people, including screen reader users, have no idea how to do with the keyboard. This happens to be one of those things that I constantly forget because it can most frequently be worked around but, on very rare occasions, it can't and I have to figure out how it's done with the screen reader commands again.

It should come as no surprise, though, that some materials written for the Graphical User Interface environment will presume that the audience is actually using the graphical user interface. It's the same kind of "writing for your intended audience" that I think we all try to do as much as possible.

Brian
--

Never underestimate the difficulty of changing false beliefs by facts.
~ Henry Rosovsky


Re: Sighted instructins, was Fly Outsn?

 

We can all find instances of instructions that are completely unsuited to a blind or visually-impaired computer user and I understand the concerns there.  The fact is, though, for at least 90% plus of the kinds of questions I'm routinely seeing on these forums I can find the answer with a quick web search and the instructions presented are step-by-step of the open this dialog, click on this option, check the checkbox, hit OK type.   That's what I'm talking about.

I hope that people have noticed that I try my darndest to give "screen reader terminology focused" instructions when writing for this audience.  At the same time I will continue to make the point that for instructions that don't use an untranslatable visual component like, "Click on the purple icon," but instead say something like, "Click on the Adobe Reader icon," you really should be able to directly translate this to, "Find, select, and activate the Adobe Reader Icon."  Like so many things, what may be involved in "Find, select, and activate" can vary wildly depending on how a given user has his or her environment configured.

Also, just to semi-defend the sighted tech support person who asks, even after having been told you can't see, "Can you see the blue screen to your right?," it's very easy to literally forget what you've been told when you've been working with someone over the phone for a while and the entire "script" you're used to using has been working, and generally it will.   It's not any sort of malice and, very often, it comes about as a direct result of the proficiency of the individual asking for support such that the tech literally forgets during the course of the interaction that they're dealing with someone who can't see.

It makes perfect sense to remind someone, gently at first but with more force as they persist in giving instructions that you can't use after they've been told, that you can't see and that they need to adjust the instructions accordingly.   It's a real challenge at times, particularly for actions such as "drag and drop" that can be emulated via the keyboard but that most people, including screen reader users, have no idea how to do with the keyboard.  This happens to be one of those things that I constantly forget because it can most frequently be worked around but, on very rare occasions, it can't and I have to figure out how it's done with the screen reader commands again.

It should come as no surprise, though, that some materials written for the Graphical User Interface environment will presume that the audience is actually using the graphical user interface.  It's the same kind of "writing for your intended audience" that I think we all try to do as much as possible.

Brian
-- 

Never underestimate the difficulty of changing false beliefs by facts. 
   ~ Henry Rosovsky

    



Re: Web Page navigation

Gene
 

It sounds as though you are doing better in working with web pages.  That's good. 
 
I'm not sure what you want to do.  If you want to disable the caps lock key so that pressing it does nothing, that is not an NVDA setting.  But you can set NVDA so that the caps lock has to be pressed twice quickly to keep it from turning on or off. 
 
Issue the command insert n.  You can use either insert.
Down arrow to preferences.  Press enter.
Down arrow to keyboard settings.
Press enter.
Tab to the check box that says some thing like use caps lock as modifier.
Press the space bar to check the check box, then press enter.
You are now back where you started.  The dialog has closed.
Now issue the command insert control c to save the setting permanently.  You will hear something like configuration saved.  This will save all your current settings so be sure you haven't changed anything else that you don't want changed permanently. 
 
Gene
 

Sent: Monday, May 16, 2016 9:45 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Web Page navigation

 
Hi Gene,
 
At last I seem to have gone a stage further. You will not believe the effort I put into this.
 
As far as I can ascertain, I followed your tutorial faithfully.  What I did NOT do was give the keystroke "down arrow" time to work through the various options before it started reading.
 
Thank you for your patience and help.
Regards.
William.
PS. Is there a shortcut key to turn off Caps Lock while using NVDA
 
 
 
 
 
------ Original Message ------
From: "Gene" <gsasner@...>
Sent: 2016/05/13 6:38:08 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Web Page navigation
This is like a very short tutorial.  Trying what I describe may help you understand and work with what we have been discussing.
 
Let's use this very nonstandard web page to get to a much more typical one.  Open the page, make sure you are at the top with the command control home.
Now tab to the first story.  The first news story is:
Solidarity launches class action against GEPF
Follow that link by pressing enter.
You will be taken to the page with the story.  Starting at the top of the page, press h.  That will move you to a heading and as you continue to press it, you will be moved to other headings.  The heading that is the title of the story is where the article begins.  If you start reading from there by down arrowing or by using the read to end command, you will start hearing the article.  If you stop reading and press h two or three more times, you will see a heading that says your next story.  There will be a link to the next story either above or below the heading.  A heading is written using a different format to draw the reader's eye to the text of the heading.  You don't do anything with a heading except read it.  You would expect the link to be below the heading since the heading is not a link.  And if you down arrow, you will find the link.  You may find on some sites, that you have to up arrow, but usually, if the heading is not the link, you would down arrow. 
 
Gene
From: Gene
Sent: Friday, May 13, 2016 10:16 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Web Page navigation

This message is long but I'm not sure the material could have been adequately covered in a shorter message.
 
The site you are discussing is not a typical Internet site. 
First a comment or two about structures in general.  You don't open headings.  You move to them.  You follow links by pressing enter on them.  But the site you are working with has nothing but links.  That is very nonstandard.  Go to the page you asked about.  Either start reading or if you just want to see links on this page, start tabbing.  Follow links by pressing enter.  If you want to learn to work with the commands you are trying to work with, use a conventionally formatted site.  Lots of sites are more or less conventionally formatted.  But this site is so nonstandard that we can tell you how to work with this site but it is not representative of most other sites. 
 
Here is more information. 
 
On the page you gave a link for, most quick navigation keys will only give you messages such as no next heading or no next button, etc.  That's because there are none and wherever you are on the page, there are none below where you are.  The commands such as h move to the next heading below your current position.  On this page, no matter where you are, there are no headings below where you are.  There is nothing anywhere on the page but links and text. 
even at the top of the page moving down the entire page, there are none. 
 
All such commands, b for button, x for check box, etc. look for what they are supposed to look for moving down the page.  If they find what they are looking for, they move you to it.  If they don't find anything, you will stay where you are on the page.
 
I would suggest you get an NVDA tutorial and listen to sections you consider important.  A very well thought of tutorial is available here:
If you look through the page, you will see how it is organized and you will get an idea of what you want to listen to.  Some people learn better using written material but many people prefer tutorials and if you do, this is a good one.
 
As far as how the keys work in general, I don't know how many sites you've tried them on.  If you go to a more or less standard site, you should get responses from many of the keys. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----

Sent: Friday, May 13, 2016 9:01 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Web Page navigation

Hi Gene & Brian.
 
First of all in response to an earlier reference from Gene I must state categorically that I am a complete novice as regards NVDA.
I have heard the term "there are more than one way to skin a cat".  Well I am present not able to skin any cat.
I have read thru quite a bit of the short cut keys and they do not react to the way I expect.
 
That is why i submitted my originally URL http://t.digitalnewspaper.co.za/nl/jsp/m.jsp?c=%40fjNSuVTurK7VzhMSOxyzIucXl%2BKsnii1IrXYxuvhTwY%3D which I list again. Gene went to a lot of trouble detailing certain key strokes. However en this led to all sort of results.
I am not all interested in any  k links. If at all possible would it not be possible to give me the simplest method,  At this stage I am only interested in opening the headings and would want the key strokes required to read such articles continuously to the end.  Is this possible?.
 
Regards,

William
 
 
 
------ Original Message ------
From: "Brian Vogel" <britechguy@...>
Sent: 2016/05/12 6:15:20 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Web Page navigation

Gene,

           When the format of a given specific webpage is known, and in this case it is known to be nothing more than a list of links to articles, I don't think it's a disservice to anyone who cannot see to state that fact and to tell them that for this particular page using an elements list is the way to go.

           I'm not trying to teach general principles here, but to help someone get through a very specific webpage, and its child pages.

           And, yes, that's my opinion when I have a specific case under discussion, not a "how would one best go about this in the general case of an unfamiliar page."  Even then I'd encourage someone to give the elements list a look to get a quick snapshot regarding what links, headers, or landmarks might or might not be present.  There's more than one way to skin a cat.

Brian
-- 

Never underestimate the difficulty of changing false beliefs by facts. 
   ~ Henry Rosovsky