Date   

Re: windows feature update 20h2

 

Well I thought I'd have to do what I did to mine but the update just
showed on my second hp system an intel i5 7200 so I guess its still
going about.

On 22/10/2020, Brian Vogel <britechguy@gmail.com> wrote:
Enes,

Actually it's not really weird at all, but an evolution in the workings of
Windows Update.  Fully automatic updates without user intervention are now a
thing of the past unless someone keeps a version on their machine that is
actually going out of support.  Windows Update itself interrogates the
actual computer it's on to determine the hardware profile, and depending on
that hardware profile, it will or will not be added to an update cohort
where a Feature Update is offered for the user to Download and install.
There have even been instances where a Feature Update has been offered, but
the offer not taken up by the end user, and it gets retracted for a time
because some "late breaking problem" has been identified that was not known
for that hardware profile previously.

Check for Updates as a way to force update has been eliminated, too.  The
only two ways I know of to force update are using the Update Assistant or
the Win10 ISO file to do a feature update, neither of which is a good idea
in the early days of any Feature Update release.

As has been said on many occasions, by many other than myself, best practice
with regard to Feature Updates is to do an occasional check of the Windows
Update pane to see if it's been offered.  Then, and only then, and
preferably after having done a full system image update, should the Download
and install link be activated to apply the Feature Update.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041

It’s hard waking up and realizing it’s not always black and white.

~ Kelley Boorn






Re: windows feature update 20h2

 

Enes,

          Actually it's not really weird at all, but an evolution in the workings of Windows Update.  Fully automatic updates without user intervention are now a thing of the past unless someone keeps a version on their machine that is actually going out of support.  Windows Update itself interrogates the actual computer it's on to determine the hardware profile, and depending on that hardware profile, it will or will not be added to an update cohort where a Feature Update is offered for the user to Download and install.  There have even been instances where a Feature Update has been offered, but the offer not taken up by the end user, and it gets retracted for a time because some "late breaking problem" has been identified that was not known for that hardware profile previously.

            Check for Updates as a way to force update has been eliminated, too.  The only two ways I know of to force update are using the Update Assistant or the Win10 ISO file to do a feature update, neither of which is a good idea in the early days of any Feature Update release.

             As has been said on many occasions, by many other than myself, best practice with regard to Feature Updates is to do an occasional check of the Windows Update pane to see if it's been offered.  Then, and only then, and preferably after having done a full system image update, should the Download and install link be activated to apply the Feature Update.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

It’s hard waking up and realizing it’s not always black and white.

     ~ Kelley Boorn

 


Re: windows feature update 20h2

enes sarıbaş
 

This is wierd. On my toshiba satallite L50A, the update is completely hidden, as if it never existed. Its a forth gen i5. Until now, I was always the first cohort to get an update since ms introduced install via check for updates.

On 10/20/2020 9:49 PM, tim wrote:
Got the same on my I5 4th gen.
My I5 8th gen still running 20.04 and both have same build numbers

On 10/20/2020 3:24 PM, Shaun Everiss wrote:
Well interestingly the update has appeared on my 4th gen workstation which has to be at least5 years old now but not on my amd laptop.

And yet, it does appear bar java and the display drivers which are updated nothing should be stopping it.

On my workstation, the update took 5 minutes to load and all I did was change the alt tab behaviour so it opens everything normally excluding edge tabs in the alt tab list because I like it like that.

Nothing was changed, in fact the only thing that has changed is the 20h2 tag, even the build is the same.

Nothing seems to be effecting things so far and nothing major needed to be updated.

In fact bar a few app updates I hardly noticed the update curve.



On 21/10/2020 7:59 am, Joseph Lee wrote:
Hi,
NO, it's a feature update - build 19042.572. To check if you've got Version 20H2, open Action Center and see if "tablet mode" is present on desktop systems - if it isn't, then you have 20H2 unless tablet mode is unpinned.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Steve Matzura
Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 2020 11:58 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] windows feature update 20h2

If you're referring to build # 572, I don't know what the new features are, bas I've seen no change in behavior or programs since I installed it on three systems.


On 10/20/2020 2:28 PM, Shaun Everiss wrote:
Just noticed its come out, not yet for my laptop, but I will wait for it.

What have users found with it so far.



On 21/10/2020 7:16 am, Don H wrote:
Just installed the latest feature update to Windows 10.  Took less
than 10 minutes to install.  I was offered it as a optional update.








.






Re: web sites detecting a screen reader

Gene
 

Perhaps. I can't think of more than perhaps three or four settings but having something discussing them might be helpful.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 2020 8:07 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] web sites detecting a screen reader

On Wed, Oct 21, 2020 at 06:20 PM, Gene wrote:
I was asking in case others knew the answers.-
I guess my central point, whether it's you asking or someone else, is that there is likely a small number of settings like this that will be asked about again and again. Having a piece of user-maintained documentation for same can prove really helpful.

I'm not trying to put this in anyone's lap specifically, but tossing the idea out there. I am maintaining something analogous in a completely different sphere, and not software related.

--


Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041

It’s hard waking up and realizing it’s not always black and white.

~ Kelley Boorn


Re: web sites detecting a screen reader

 

On Wed, Oct 21, 2020 at 06:20 PM, Gene wrote:
I was asking in case others knew the answers.
-
I guess my central point, whether it's you asking or someone else, is that there is likely a small number of settings like this that will be asked about again and again.  Having a piece of user-maintained documentation for same can prove really helpful.

I'm not trying to put this in anyone's lap specifically, but tossing the idea out there.  I am maintaining something analogous in a completely different sphere, and not software related.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

It’s hard waking up and realizing it’s not always black and white.

     ~ Kelley Boorn

 


Re: NVDA Settings Documentation

Quentin Christensen
 

Off the top of my head, this doesn't work in Word, because as you down arrow to move by line, the caret DOES move down a line, and so NVDA reads the next line (that behaviour is the same in focus or browse mode).  Using the Move to next line in review command (numpad 9 or NVDA+down arrow) also moves to the next actual line.


On Thu, Oct 22, 2020 at 8:41 AM Dave Grossoehme <dave@...> wrote:
Good |Day:  This brings a question to mind on this setting. Would that
work for a line in Word, if wrap is turned on?  Which a line of text
that continues to wrap.

Dave


On 10/19/2020 2:14 AM, Gene wrote:
> I haven't looked at the user guide a lot.  However, I found yesterday,
> regarding the line length documentation this:
> 12.1.14. Browse Mode (NVDA+control+b)
> The Browse Mode category in the NVDA Settings dialog is used to
> configure NVDA's behaviour when you read and navigate complex
> documents such as web pages. This category contains the following
> options:
> Maximum Number of Characters on One Line
> This field sets the maximum length of a line in browse mode (in
> characters).
>
> That's true but how many people would understand where it might be
> useful? I found the same feature useful in JAWS years ago becaused
> when I moved from line to line manually, the lines as displayed were
> too long to find something conveniently.  I wanted lines shorter so I
> could skim by line much faster and more efficiently.
>
> There are two things that come to mind:
> When browse mode is discussed earlier, should the section that shows
> the settings with explanation be referenced as a further information
> or see also, or for settings, see or something of the sort?  Also, is
> this section and some other parts of the user guide intended for those
> who already have an idea of how such settings might be used in general
> or for a more advanced user who may either understand the information
> or play around and see what the effect is of settings information that
> isn't clear.
>
> Manuals, in my experience are usually concise and I think that is one
> reason tutorials are so much more popular.   But the degree of
> concision may be opened to useful discussion.
>
> Gene
> -----Original Message----- From: Quentin Christensen
> Sent: Monday, October 19, 2020 4:01 AM
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
> Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA Settings Documentation
>
>
> Hi everyone,
>
> Lots of good points here.  So firstly, from a very simplistic view -
> if there are any settings which experienced people such as yourselves
> can't get an explanation of from the User Guide, then that's
> definitely something we should address.  Please either let me know (or
> file a GitHub issue) as you find examples.
>
> Re the user guide being too thick and heavy for new users to get start
> with - that's largely because that's not who it is really aimed at. 
> For a lot of users, the Basic Training for NVDA would be the best
> place to start. There is potentially a gap for a short "quick start"
> guide, and I'd be happy to explore that further with anyone who has
> ideas on the subject.
>
> Joseph, re some sort of training for new contributors - that too is a
> great idea, and I'd be happy to work further with you on it.
>
> I've made a note to follow all of this up (since it's into the evening
> here and I'm trying to figure out book week costumes while getting the
> kids to bed).
>
>
> On Mon, Oct 19, 2020 at 10:44 AM Robert Doc Wright godfearer
> <godfearer@...> wrote:
>
> Where I need direction on what I need to study in order to be a tech
> writer for NVDA. I believe that once I understand something I can
> teach it to anyone. My stumbling block is that I have had some
> programming classes but that was twenty years ago. I taught myself
> basic web design from a book. What do I need to know to be of help
> where the users guide is concerned?
> ******
> Jesus says, follow me and I'll help you through the rough spots.
> the world says, hey come with me. My way is broad and easy. So what if
> you get crap on your shoes. You can always wash it off, can't you!
>
>
> Family times where there is fun for every ear!
> http://stream.wrighthere.net:8000/stream.mp3
>
> Or ask your A device to play Family times on tuneIn
> You can also find us on your mobile device install OoTunes and search
> for Family times
> ----- Original Message ----- From: Joseph Lee
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
> Sent: Sunday, October 18, 2020 1:45 PM
> Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA Settings Documentation
>
>
> Hi,
>
> Agreed (that’s one of the reasons why I comment a lot in my add-on
> source code).
>
> One holiday wish I have (possibly a long-term wish) is to help folks
> get started on revamping the NVDA community documentation. At least
> this can include add-on user guides, but I foresee a day where the
> screen reader user guide would not escape this rewrite in hopes of
> making it more relevant for users. I would go so far as ask NVDA code
> contributors to add extensive documentation in source code itself – it
> is now possible to do it easily with help from a module called Sphinx,
> a source code based documentation generator. There are major issues to
> consider, however:
>
> Who is the target audience: thinking about this changes the game, as
> it will dictate tone, style, word usage, and organization of the
> document and supplemental materials.
> Mindset of code contributors: are we just software developers or
> technical authors? Some people would argue that developers should
> focus on programming and testing, leaving the task of documenting what
> developers wrote to technical authors, and this separation of concerns
> may foster better communication amongst team members. On the other
> hand, by forcing developers to become technical authors, they can make
> crucial decisions about the user-visible aspects of a given product a
> bit early.
> How can we show we accept diversity in terms of culture, language,
> skill level, and other factors: although the community documentation
> was written by NV Access people at first, it is increasingly written
> by people from diverse backgrounds in terms of culture, language,
> skill level, and other factors (although I did receive training on
> technical communication and software development, I’m not a native
> English speaker). This is more so for parts that are written by people
> who may have different interpretation about a UI message or concepts,
> more so if the author’s native language is not English (the reverse is
> true for translators as they need to grasp concepts written in English
> in their native languages).
>
>
>
> My responses to the above questions are:
>
> Who is the target audience: it varies. For NVDA user guide, it is
> users with differing skill levels. For add-on guides, they target end
> users. For this reason, whenever I edit the NVDA user guide or add-on
> guides, I think about what users expect and NVDA’s response. This
> changes if we’re dealing with a document meant for developers (such as
> add-on internals and such).
> Mindset of code contributors: I believe that, as much as programming
> skills is important, willingness to communicate with audiences (users,
> other contributors, industry experts, etc.) is also important. One way
> to practice both is thinking and writing to and about users, therefore
> I tend to fall into a bit of the latter category from above:
> programming is, in one way or another, writing. Python is just one of
> the more specialized languages used to communicate with another entity
> (the machine), and if one can teach a computer to do something (along
> with fixing mistakes), it would be possible to train developers to
> respect users more by writing good documentation (of course someone
> may need to look at the documentation for style and such). My
> philosophy partly stems from my experiences as a former computer
> science major at a college I attended (different from the one I’m
> about to graduate from): my first computer science professor stressed
> the importance of source code comments and documentation, and I still
> practice this lesson today, which fuels my overall frustration with
> the current state of NVDA user guide and source code documentation in
> general. I think one exercise code contributors can do before
> submitting anything to GitHub (specifically, pull; requests) is
> writing an early user facing documentation, because doing so helps you
> improve your writing skills and think carefully about the impact of
> your changes when users meet them (I sometimes find myself struggling
> for minutes to hours over UI messages and documentation for this
> reason; I know what my code will do, but I hit a roadblock when
> explaining what I’ve done to would-be users before actually writing
> code).
> How can we show we are a group of people coming from diverse
> backgrounds: I think this goal was somewhat achieved when we look at
> recent NVDA work – many new features and bug fixes included in NVDA
> 2020.3 were written by someone other than an NV Access staff member,
> from people living in different countries and speaking many languages.
> But I know that we can improve on that somehow.
>
>
>
> Another wish I have, mostly for Quentin: can we develop some sort of a
> training program for would-be contributors wishing to improve the
> overall NVDA community documentation, including the user guide? It may
> include basics on technical writing, tone and style, audience
> analysis, exercises where coding and documentation should be done
> together, and documentation production in a variety of formats
> (including online media). I think this may help us dive deeper into
> user guide issues being brought up, including the guide being “too
> thick” for newbies (in terms of understanding, lack of solid examples,
> and friendliness), especially for preferences chapter.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Joseph
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
> Sent: Sunday, October 18, 2020 11:56 AM
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
> Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA Settings Documentation
>
>
>
>
>
> Joseph,
>
>           While I applaud your efforts, and tutorials are invaluable,
> I wasn't even going that far.  I'm talking basic documentation, where
> each item in a panel/pane/settings group in a given pane are briefly
> documented. There are myriad NVDA settings that, if their actual
> function is not directly obvious, which is the case, for example, with
> most checkboxes, then they're a black hole.
>
>            Even I will admit that for all software it is a limited
> number of end users who refer to this sort of thing.  That being said,
> some do, and it serves as a very important basis for new developers to
> develop depth of knowledge of "what's in there and what it's for."
>
>             I was just commenting to someone for whom I've done custom
> VBA scripting for Outlook that I am eternally grateful to myself for
> having developed the habit of rigorously commenting my code, at a bare
> minimum, as even I would have no idea what some of what I've written
> actually does when looking at it much later. Complex stuff doesn't
> remain in "off the top of my head" mode (for most "mes") as time moves
> on.  That's one of the reasons that basic documentation is so important.







--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager


Re: web sites detecting a screen reader

Gene
 

I was asking in case others knew the answers. I searched the relevant settings areas and found nothing, the relevant areas being Document Formatting and Browse Mode Settings. I haven't chedcked Github. Perhaps I should have, I just thought these might be annoyances that might not bother others enough that an issue was filed, but someone may have done so.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 2020 4:52 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] web sites detecting a screen reader

On Wed, Oct 21, 2020 at 03:11 PM, Gene wrote:
Is the figure setting not being controlable an oversight and are there plans to have the user be able to turn off live region speech?-
Gene, I cannot answer this, other than to say if you don't have a GitHub Account for accessing the NVAccess/NVDA issues system you should consider getting one. This would be an issue, as far as I'm concerned, if there is no clear way to control it documented.

One of the big things lacking, as far as I'm concerned, in NVDA is the ability to search settings for a given word or phrase. Any software as complex as NVDA is going to have a number of settings that it's virtually impossible for any single person to remember in their entirety, or even where they are in the hierarchy. Given how software of this complexity is developed, and grows over time, certain settings may be in what seem to be very odd locations because where they now would seem to be logically placed did not even exist when they came into being. Settings searches have really become a necessity. If you were able to search settings on the word "figure" that should answer your current question, but you can't. But this is not an issue, per se, but a feature request/suggestion if we're talking a general purpose settings search.

--


Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041

It’s hard waking up and realizing it’s not always black and white.

~ Kelley Boorn


Re: web sites detecting a screen reader

 

On Wed, Oct 21, 2020 at 03:11 PM, Gene wrote:
Is the figure setting not being controlable an oversight and are there plans to have the user be able to turn off live region speech?
-
Gene, I cannot answer this, other than to say if you don't have a GitHub Account for accessing the NVAccess/NVDA issues system you should consider getting one.  This would be an issue, as far as I'm concerned, if there is no clear way to control it documented.

One of the big things lacking, as far as I'm concerned, in NVDA is the ability to search settings for a given word or phrase.  Any software as complex as NVDA is going to have a number of settings that it's virtually impossible for any single person to remember in their entirety, or even where they are in the hierarchy.  Given how software of this complexity is developed, and grows over time, certain settings may be in what seem to be very odd locations because where they now would seem to be logically placed did not even exist when they came into being.  Settings searches have really become a necessity.  If you were able to search settings on the word "figure" that should answer your current question, but you can't.  But this is not an issue, per se, but a feature request/suggestion if we're talking a general purpose settings search.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

It’s hard waking up and realizing it’s not always black and white.

     ~ Kelley Boorn

 


Re: NVDA Settings Documentation

Dave Grossoehme
 

Good |Day:  This brings a question to mind on this setting. Would that work for a line in Word, if wrap is turned on?  Which a line of text that continues to wrap.

Dave

On 10/19/2020 2:14 AM, Gene wrote:
I haven't looked at the user guide a lot.  However, I found yesterday, regarding the line length documentation this:
12.1.14. Browse Mode (NVDA+control+b)
The Browse Mode category in the NVDA Settings dialog is used to configure NVDA's behaviour when you read and navigate complex documents such as web pages. This category contains the following options:
Maximum Number of Characters on One Line
This field sets the maximum length of a line in browse mode (in characters).

That's true but how many people would understand where it might be useful? I found the same feature useful in JAWS years ago becaused when I moved from line to line manually, the lines as displayed were too long to find something conveniently.  I wanted lines shorter so I could skim by line much faster and more efficiently.

There are two things that come to mind:
When browse mode is discussed earlier, should the section that shows the settings with explanation be referenced as a further information or see also, or for settings, see or something of the sort?  Also, is this section and some other parts of the user guide intended for those who already have an idea of how such settings might be used in general or for a more advanced user who may either understand the information or play around and see what the effect is of settings information that isn't clear.

Manuals, in my experience are usually concise and I think that is one reason tutorials are so much more popular.   But the degree of concision may be opened to useful discussion.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: Quentin Christensen
Sent: Monday, October 19, 2020 4:01 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA Settings Documentation


Hi everyone,

Lots of good points here.  So firstly, from a very simplistic view - if there are any settings which experienced people such as yourselves can't get an explanation of from the User Guide, then that's definitely something we should address.  Please either let me know (or file a GitHub issue) as you find examples.

Re the user guide being too thick and heavy for new users to get start with - that's largely because that's not who it is really aimed at.  For a lot of users, the Basic Training for NVDA would be the best place to start. There is potentially a gap for a short "quick start" guide, and I'd be happy to explore that further with anyone who has ideas on the subject.

Joseph, re some sort of training for new contributors - that too is a great idea, and I'd be happy to work further with you on it.

I've made a note to follow all of this up (since it's into the evening here and I'm trying to figure out book week costumes while getting the kids to bed).


On Mon, Oct 19, 2020 at 10:44 AM Robert Doc Wright godfearer <godfearer@comcast.net> wrote:

Where I need direction on what I need to study in order to be a tech writer for NVDA. I believe that once I understand something I can teach it to anyone. My stumbling block is that I have had some programming classes but that was twenty years ago. I taught myself basic web design from a book. What do I need to know to be of help where the users guide is concerned?
******
Jesus says, follow me and I'll help you through the rough spots.
the world says, hey come with me. My way is broad and easy. So what if you get crap on your shoes. You can always wash it off, can't you!


Family times where there is fun for every ear!
http://stream.wrighthere.net:8000/stream.mp3

Or ask your A device to play Family times on tuneIn
You can also find us on your mobile device install OoTunes and search for Family times
----- Original Message ----- From: Joseph Lee
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Sent: Sunday, October 18, 2020 1:45 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA Settings Documentation


Hi,

Agreed (that’s one of the reasons why I comment a lot in my add-on source code).

One holiday wish I have (possibly a long-term wish) is to help folks get started on revamping the NVDA community documentation. At least this can include add-on user guides, but I foresee a day where the screen reader user guide would not escape this rewrite in hopes of making it more relevant for users. I would go so far as ask NVDA code contributors to add extensive documentation in source code itself – it is now possible to do it easily with help from a module called Sphinx, a source code based documentation generator. There are major issues to consider, however:

Who is the target audience: thinking about this changes the game, as it will dictate tone, style, word usage, and organization of the document and supplemental materials.
Mindset of code contributors: are we just software developers or technical authors? Some people would argue that developers should focus on programming and testing, leaving the task of documenting what developers wrote to technical authors, and this separation of concerns may foster better communication amongst team members. On the other hand, by forcing developers to become technical authors, they can make crucial decisions about the user-visible aspects of a given product a bit early.
How can we show we accept diversity in terms of culture, language, skill level, and other factors: although the community documentation was written by NV Access people at first, it is increasingly written by people from diverse backgrounds in terms of culture, language, skill level, and other factors (although I did receive training on technical communication and software development, I’m not a native English speaker). This is more so for parts that are written by people who may have different interpretation about a UI message or concepts, more so if the author’s native language is not English (the reverse is true for translators as they need to grasp concepts written in English in their native languages).



My responses to the above questions are:

Who is the target audience: it varies. For NVDA user guide, it is users with differing skill levels. For add-on guides, they target end users. For this reason, whenever I edit the NVDA user guide or add-on guides, I think about what users expect and NVDA’s response. This changes if we’re dealing with a document meant for developers (such as add-on internals and such).
Mindset of code contributors: I believe that, as much as programming skills is important, willingness to communicate with audiences (users, other contributors, industry experts, etc.) is also important. One way to practice both is thinking and writing to and about users, therefore I tend to fall into a bit of the latter category from above: programming is, in one way or another, writing. Python is just one of the more specialized languages used to communicate with another entity (the machine), and if one can teach a computer to do something (along with fixing mistakes), it would be possible to train developers to respect users more by writing good documentation (of course someone may need to look at the documentation for style and such). My philosophy partly stems from my experiences as a former computer science major at a college I attended (different from the one I’m about to graduate from): my first computer science professor stressed the importance of source code comments and documentation, and I still practice this lesson today, which fuels my overall frustration with the current state of NVDA user guide and source code documentation in general. I think one exercise code contributors can do before submitting anything to GitHub (specifically, pull; requests) is writing an early user facing documentation, because doing so helps you improve your writing skills and think carefully about the impact of your changes when users meet them (I sometimes find myself struggling for minutes to hours over UI messages and documentation for this reason; I know what my code will do, but I hit a roadblock when explaining what I’ve done to would-be users before actually writing code).
How can we show we are a group of people coming from diverse backgrounds: I think this goal was somewhat achieved when we look at recent NVDA work – many new features and bug fixes included in NVDA 2020.3 were written by someone other than an NV Access staff member, from people living in different countries and speaking many languages. But I know that we can improve on that somehow.



Another wish I have, mostly for Quentin: can we develop some sort of a training program for would-be contributors wishing to improve the overall NVDA community documentation, including the user guide? It may include basics on technical writing, tone and style, audience analysis, exercises where coding and documentation should be done together, and documentation production in a variety of formats (including online media). I think this may help us dive deeper into user guide issues being brought up, including the guide being “too thick” for newbies (in terms of understanding, lack of solid examples, and friendliness), especially for preferences chapter.

Cheers,

Joseph









From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Sunday, October 18, 2020 11:56 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA Settings Documentation





Joseph,

          While I applaud your efforts, and tutorials are invaluable, I wasn't even going that far.  I'm talking basic documentation, where each item in a panel/pane/settings group in a given pane are briefly documented. There are myriad NVDA settings that, if their actual function is not directly obvious, which is the case, for example, with most checkboxes, then they're a black hole.

           Even I will admit that for all software it is a limited number of end users who refer to this sort of thing.  That being said, some do, and it serves as a very important basis for new developers to develop depth of knowledge of "what's in there and what it's for."

            I was just commenting to someone for whom I've done custom VBA scripting for Outlook that I am eternally grateful to myself for having developed the habit of rigorously commenting my code, at a bare minimum, as even I would have no idea what some of what I've written actually does when looking at it much later. Complex stuff doesn't remain in "off the top of my head" mode (for most "mes") as time moves on.  That's one of the reasons that basic documentation is so important.


Question about identifying a language with "Instant Translate"

Louise Pfau
 

Hi.  I used the commands "SHIFT+NVDA+T, I" to identify a language with "Instant Translate" before performing a translation, and I received the message "Invariant Language".  What does this mean?  I've installed the most recent version of the add-on.

Thanks,

Louise


Re: web sites detecting a screen reader

Gene
 

I'm not sure there are more than perhaps two or three such settings but my question is why they are set as they are or are not user controlable? Is the figure setting not being controlable an oversight and are there plans to have the user be able to turn off live region speech?

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 2020 1:55 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] web sites detecting a screen reader

Gene, et. al.,

Has anyone ever thought about creating a document of, if not frequently used, at least reasonably frequently requested settings tweaks to turn certain behaviors/announcements off and on?

As time goes by, there are times where new features come into play where the default doesn't suit, and there are plenty of instances where existing ones don't, either. But, lets face it, some settings in the vastness of all available settings in NVDA are unlikely to ever be touched by most users.

Having this in some downloadable form, subject to updating "as needed" by its maintainer, is very handy indeed, and addresses a need. In this case, I am not volunteering to be the maintainer, at least not initially, simply because I am far less likely to ever know which of these settings is found annoying by someone or a number of someones who actually are daily-driver users of a screen reader, NVDA, in this case.

--


Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041

It’s hard waking up and realizing it’s not always black and white.

~ Kelley Boorn


Re: web sites detecting a screen reader

 

Gene, et. al.,

            Has anyone ever thought about creating a document of, if not frequently used, at least reasonably frequently requested settings tweaks to turn certain behaviors/announcements off and on?

             As time goes by, there are times where new features come into play where the default doesn't suit, and there are plenty of instances where existing ones don't, either.  But, lets face it, some settings in the vastness of all available settings in NVDA are unlikely to ever be touched by most users.

             Having this in some downloadable form, subject to updating "as needed" by its maintainer, is very handy indeed, and addresses a need.  In this case, I am not volunteering to be the maintainer, at least not initially, simply because I am far less likely to ever know which of these settings is found annoying by someone or a number of someones who actually are daily-driver users of a screen reader, NVDA, in this case.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

It’s hard waking up and realizing it’s not always black and white.

     ~ Kelley Boorn

 


Re: web sites detecting a screen reader

Gene
 

I haven't found any way to turn off speech in live regions. It is important to be able to control this behavior.

Also, there is no reason figure and out of figure should be announced. It is formatting information that is of no use or interest to the general user. It should be off by default as should bloc quotes and perhaps other information. I have found no way to turn off notification of figures.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Jonathan COHN via groups.io
Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 2020 1:27 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] web sites detecting a screen reader

I have only come across this once or twice. In that case, the site was not recognizing the Screen Reader, but a javascript plugin for the site kept updating a lie region to say something like "for better screen reader response use our plugin. So I turned on the plugin, and the noises went away, but the site was pretty horrible to use after that.
JAWS and VoiceOVer have ways to ignore live region updates on noisy pages, so I expect that NVDA does too.
One other possibility... Could one block a specific JS package on a site? Or of course, you could tell your browser to not allow JS and that would prevent this extra mess.


locked Re: How do I subscribe to the Chat group?

 

Now that this issue has been successfully resolved via reading of the originally posted information, I am actually going to post it again so that future archive searchers will find it easily if they search on "subscribe chat subgroup."  I'll be locking the topic as well.


Subgroup Description:  The Chat Subgroup is dedicated to the discussion of anything its members want to discuss.  There are no topic restrictions, within the bounds of civil discourse.  Many discussions have a primary focus on configuring or controlling specific programs, not using NVDA itself.  Others are purely social in nature.  The Chat Subgroup allows those members of the NVDA community who wish to engage in discussions about things other than NVDA to do so, and to keep those conversations separate from the main NVDA group.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

It’s hard waking up and realizing it’s not always black and white.

     ~ Kelley Boorn

 


Re: web sites detecting a screen reader

Jonathan COHN
 

I have only come across this once or twice. In that case, the site was not recognizing the Screen Reader, but a javascript plugin for the site kept updating a lie region to say something like "for better screen reader response use our plugin. So I turned on the plugin, and the noises went away, but the site was pretty horrible to use after that. 
JAWS and VoiceOVer have ways to ignore live region updates on noisy pages, so I expect that NVDA does too.
One other possibility... Could one block a specific JS package on a site? Or of course, you could tell your browser to not allow JS and that would prevent this extra mess.  


locked Re: How do I subscribe to the Chat group?

 

On Wed, Oct 21, 2020 at 01:53 PM, John J. Boyer wrote:
Just give me the subscription information.
-
I'm sorry, but if you can't be bothered to look in the very lock message where it was already provided, with a simple search on "subscribe," I have no intention of offering it again.

It's also in the archive many, many, many times as well.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

It’s hard waking up and realizing it’s not always black and white.

     ~ Kelley Boorn

 


locked Re: How do I subscribe to the Chat group?

Jonathan COHN
 

If you go to the NVDA.groups.io web site, you will see a link for sub groups. There you can find the chat sub-group and subscribe to it. 
Jonathan.


locked How do I subscribe to the Chat group?

John J. Boyer
 

Hello,

Just give me the subscription information. I just received a message saying that the topic of exporting NVDA features to Orca had been locked by the moderators.

Thanks,
John

--
John J. Boyer
Email: john.boyer@abilitiessoft.org
website: http://www.abilitiessoft.org
Status: Company dissolved but website and email addresses live.
Location: Madison, Wisconsin, USA
Mission: developing assistive technology software and providing STEM services
that are available at no cost


locked Re: well, I guess I shouldn't have expected much

 

Hmmm, thanks sara.

I may concidder that if I need to.

Waterfox classic is good for me right now but yeah I may have to switch to something else at least for more secure work.

I won't ever leave waterfox even if I only ever use it for blogs and a few shop related things, but if it really gets that bad I'll know where to go.



On 22/10/2020 5:28 am, Sarah k Alawami wrote:

Use brave. It's good foryou. I don't use firefox unless i have to, but I love and use brave every day. It's fast and the add blocker just works.

--

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website.

Check out my adventures with a shadow machine.

to subscribe to the feed click here and you can also follow us on twitter

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on twitch. Feel free to give the channel a follow and see what is up there.

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Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 21 Oct 2020, at 9:25, Shaun Everiss wrote:

Subject says it all.

After all the bad bugs and other messages on the support readit, you'd think waterfox would fix their broken brouser in classic mode but I guess not.

Decided even though changes stated that there were only security updates this round, decided to try the program again.

As soon as I loaded one of my slower loading forums, waterfox froze and nvda had a garbage deleted objects issue where both stacks froze and I had emence trouble getting speech back, let alone narator to work in that state.

I have returned to 08.

Rumor seems to be that they seem to be putting all energies in their 3rd gen engine.

However of more concern is the fact they don't seem to be pulling current performance updates from firefox.

Technically I can stay on 08 for the rest of my life without an issue.

My add and script blockers are probably good enough and I don't leave my brouser open but still for a program with so much prommice its something really stupid and weird going on with this thing.

If there was a way to use classic accessability menus and not fiddle round with the modern  and wacky interface for all the extra addons and such in firefox, I'd switch to that.

Point is I like the classic uncluttered interface but if this continues to break, I may just have to stay here.

Its a pitty  that 2020.08 will be the last working version of waterfox classic for me, but it doesn't seem they are really improving the brouser much.

I'd probably make a fuss on github but I have other things to bother about, the brouser aint one of them and I don't intend it to be.

I am just slightly put off at all this goings on.

I was hoping that things would be better.

Maybe they are but right now I can't use a program that can generate interaction errors and take my reader with it pluss other things.

To be honest if I could find another classic firefox brouser that works without the drama going on or a classic chrome interfaced brouser or simply a simple classic brouser I may switch.

But some shops on chrome and others seem to be missing out decimal points in prices and I can't find a solution to have these read right and know waterfox handles it ok.


locked Re: Exporting NVDA features to Orca

 

Now I am locking this topic, as I do not want to go down the rabbit hole of digging into the internals and specific features of Orca on this group, which is entirely off-topic on this group.

If there is a wish to have an extended discussion regarding cross-pollination between NVDA and Orca, please open it and conduct it on the NVDA Chat Subgroup or elsewhere:

The Chat Subgroup exists for non-NVDA-specific conversations regarding any topic by members of the NVDA Group community who wish to indulge in same.  Most topics tend to be technical questions about specific programs and how to use them, but there are social topics as well.  You must be registered as a member of the NVDA Main Group before you can join the Chat Subgroup.  Membership in  the Chat Subgroup is entirely optional.
 
To join:  chat+subscribe@nvda.groups.io
 
To post: chat@nvda.groups.io
 
To unsubscribe:  chat+unsubscribe@nvda.groups.io
 
To receive a message containing the group description, and a list of these commands:  chat+help@nvda.groups.io
 
To stop receiving messages via email (you may still read messages on the Web):  chat+nomail@nvda.groups.io
This can also be used to put a vacation stop on group messages, then use one of the addresses below to resume delivery in the format of your choice.
 
To receive each group messages individually:  chat+single@nvda.groups.io
This is the default delivery format when you initially subscribe unless you send a message to one of the addresses that follows to change it.  You can change delivery format at will by sending a message to any one of the delivery format addresses.
 
To receive group messages in an HTML formatted digest:  chat+fulldigest@nvda.groups.io
 
To receive group messages in a plain text digest:  chat+digest@nvda.groups.io
 
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To receive only special messages:  chat+special@nvda.groups.io
  
To contact the group owner(s):  chat+owner@nvda.groups.io
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

It’s hard waking up and realizing it’s not always black and white.

     ~ Kelley Boorn

 

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