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Re: Bug Reports: Thunderbird talks too much
Hi Adriani,
If you subscribe to multiple mailing lists and if you have filters
for each list and if you group messages by conversation, then seeing
the number of messages in a folder and the number of unread messages
is critical. It saves a lot of time in moving around collapsing and
expanding your conversations, looking at the folder tree view and
so on.
Previous to version 60.9, when you used the hotkey for reading the
status line, it red the critical information described above but
otherwise it was silent. You could navigate around the list of
messages and read a message without hearing any blow by blow account
of your actions. With the old JAWS program, you could create a
frame around an area of the screen and silence it and use a hotkey
to read it. Maybe NVDA developers could creat a tool for such
activity. Thunderbird isn't the only program where NVDA becomes too
verbose.
On 4/9/2020 7:23 PM, Adriani Botez
wrote:
Is the
information in the status bar very critical? Is it needed to be
able to use Thunderbird?
If not, then I suggest to open a bug with Mozilla requesting
to include only critical information in the status bar. And
write them exactly which information should be excluded from
reporting.
Best
Adriani
Von meinem iPhone gesendet
Hi,
Depending on what is causing it, it
might be best to either:
- Create a new NVDA issue on
GitHub: if NVDA is at fault.
- Report this to Mozilla via
Bugzilla: if it is Thunderbird doing this.
Cheers,
Joseph
By the way, there appears to be a
related bug on NVDA in GitHub, kind of: NVDA fails to see text in
the status bar of Mozilla Thunderbird 68 and newer
This bug was originally opened in November 2019. It was
the flip side of the current ultra verbose problem.
However, a comment added yesterday reads, "This
has been resolved in Thunderbird version 68.7.0.
However, the new issue is that NVDA now tends to
automatically read whatever Thunderbird displays in
its status bar, thereby making the screen reader quite
verbose. I suggest that the auto-reading of the status
bar in Thunderbird version 68.7.0 and newer be
suppressed. This is with NVDA Version
alpha-19925,2d73010e."
There are others here who can advise, since this is the
case, whether it's worth creating a new, separate bug or
whether, based on the comment, which appears to have
been seen by the those who check the reports since two
tags, "app/thunderbird" and "bug," were added in
response to that comment yesterday. There's no point in
creating a separate bug if it would either be merged
into this existing one, or if the comment will trigger
an issue split out in to a separate issue. It's a
question of where to comment, and whether that should
wait or just occur on the end of the existing bug, even
though the main problem description for that bug doesn't
match the current issue.
--
Brian - Windows
10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363
Power is being
told you're not loved and not being destroyed by it.
~ Madonna
--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"
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Re: Thunderbird talking way too much
At this point, this topic is exhausted and is being locked. Bug reports now exist for both NVDA and Thunderbird, and direct links to each have been provided in a dedicated topic. --
Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363
Power is being told you're not loved and not being destroyed by it.
~ Madonna
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Re: Bug Reports: Thunderbird talks too much
On Thu, Apr 9, 2020 at 07:43 PM, Shaun Everiss wrote:
I was able to report to bugzilla using my github account if that makes sence.
Shaun - this is a message from me speaking as Moderator. Please, please, please start reading what has already been told to you about this not making one bit of sense and taking that on board before posting exactly what you've been told is wrong again. It's the very least you can do. If you don't start doing that, I will put you on moderated status. One final time - There is absolutely, positively no connection of any kind between GitHub and Bugzilla other than they are both systems used to report bugs. In this specifi case, Thunderbird bugs are reported on Bugzilla. NVDA issues/bugs are reported on GitHub. You cannot use a GitHub account on Bugzilla or vice versa. They are completely separate worlds. --
Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363
Power is being told you're not loved and not being destroyed by it.
~ Madonna
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Re: Bug Reports: Thunderbird talks too much
Joseph, et. al., Based on your latest comment I have created a new GitHub issue for NVDA: NVDA reads Thunderbird Status Bar, intruding on anything else you're doing. The information included is a direct link to both the Bugzilla bug filed by Shaun Everiss and the other NVDA issue I mentioned previously. Unless I am mistaken, this behavior appears to have started only with the installation of Thunderbird 68.7. If it is happening in earlier dot releases of 68 then will those experiencing it there please add a comment to the issue indicating same, and specifying the version of Tbird they're having the issue with. I am currently using NVDA 2019.3.1 and do not know if this occurs with the same Tbird release, but an earlier NVDA release. --
Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363
Power is being told you're not loved and not being destroyed by it.
~ Madonna
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Re: Thunderbird talking way too much
What happens if someone using NVDA goes to a page with a stock ticker that
is a live region. While there is no reasonf for the status line in
Thunderbird to be a live region and it shouldn’t be, I think there should be a
setting in NVDA to turn off speech in live regions. This should be
implemented regardless of what the Thunderbird problem is and no matter if
Mozilla fixes it in a reasonable time.
Gene
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2020 6:41 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Thunderbird talking way too
much
Heck I don't care who fixes it, I just want it fixed.
If nvaccess thinks it can fix this faster than mozilla go for it.
I am over this verbose thing right now, I don't care who fixes it, there are
obviously issues for both of you, its just who is faster to act.
I'd like to see what mozilla says and does, but in the mean time if you feel
you can make this faster, then as a user I think you should go for it
reguardless.
On 10/04/2020 11:07 am, Joseph Lee wrote:
Hi all,
If this is happening with add-ons off, chances are that
NVDA is picking up events it should not react to. The most likely candidate is
a live region, and if yes, it is something Thunderbird developers must fix
unless folks insist that NVDA developers do, in which case a workaround might
be written.
Cheers,
Joseph
Considering the popularity of Thunderbird, NVDA
developers might be willing to implement a fix. Most people won’t have
any idea what to do about these problems. We also don’t know how much
work is involved and how important the fix is compared to other projects being
worked on, but asking about a fix would be a good idea. I would imagine
that NVDA developers would like to find out how long it might be before
Thunderbird corrects the problem or if they intend to do so once they get
reports.
----- Original Message
-----
Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2020
5:27 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Thunderbird
talking way too much
Gene,
This may not be an NVDA problem specifically but I believe that the
problem does not occur as frequently, if at all, with JAWS. This is not at all
to suggest that NVDA is at all inferior but only that it's somehow
intercepting these messages differently. David Goldfield, Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist JAWS Certified, 2019 WWW.DavidGoldfield.org
On 4/9/2020 6:15 PM, Gene wrote:
but this isn’t an NVDA problem. I suspect
there is some way that speech is being forced, perhaps as in Chrome during
downloads. It would be interesting as a test to move away from the
program window while something is changing such as when downloading messages
to see if NVDA still speaks whatever speech is occuring in the window.
In Chrome when a file is downloading, speech is forced whether you are in
the program window or not.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2020
2:53 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Thunderbird
talking way too much
Hi Brian,
Your analysis is probably correct,
but I am wondering just why the issue didn't exist in versions of
Thunderbird earlier than 60.9. Remember, before that time, the status
line was visible, but screen readers: JAWS and NVDA didn't report all
dynamic changes. It was there and you could read it with the hotkey
for status line.
With the reintroduction of the status line,
we now have this problem. I wonder if NVDA programers can do something
to change this--perhaps coming up with some sort of display silently and
invoking reading with hotkey.
On 4/9/2020 10:38 AM, Brian Vogel
wrote:
My guess is that the good folks at Thunderbird
had gotten complaints that it was impossible to know, for instance,
whether all new e-mail had completed downloading when you fired up T-bird
at the start of the day, and decided to expose a lot more information
presented on the status bar to the screen reader.
What they
probably hadn't counted on is the fact that a screen reader will detect
changes and read them as they're detected, and that's really, really
irritating if you're reading your e-mail messages and status stuff just
barges in while doing so.
If they have sighted folks doing testing
for these new functions, it wouldn't surprise me if they just sat there
when the status bar was really active watching to see that it was being
reported correctly, never moving along like one normally would into
reading messages. And I can get that, as even though I have the
status bar displayed, I virtually never look at it at all. The
occasional glance occurs, but I wouldn't really miss it at all if it
weren't there by default.
It's well-nigh impossible for most of us
who see to have any real idea of exactly how screen reader users typically
approach using various pieces of software (and I include myself, though I
do have at least some idea at this point). And there will never be
enough in-house actual screen reader users doing accessibility
testing. That's one of the reasons I push so hard to get folks who
encounter accessibility issues to file bug/issue/trouble reports with the
companies that produce the software. You all are able to give a far
more accurate description of what the software is doing that you don't
want with the screen reader as well as what the preferred behavior would
be. Also, given your years of end-user experience, you're often in a
far better position to know whether the issue you're having is with the
screen reader or due to a change in the software you're using the screen
reader to access, and that's often the key to getting to the root of the
problem as well as the fix.
--
Brian -
Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363
Power is being told you're not
loved and not being destroyed by it.
~
Madonna
-- They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes. They ask: "How Happy are You?" I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"
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Re: Bug Reports: Thunderbird talks too much
I was able to report to bugzilla using my github account if that
makes sence.
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
On 10/04/2020 10:32 am, Brian Vogel
wrote:
Shaun,
The fact that you've reported this is great, really
great. But if you used both Bugzilla and GitHub then we're
talking two different systems and two different bug reports.
Having taken the time to look up this bug, it is a
Bugzilla Bug on Thunderbird, https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1628891,
and is not connected with GitHub in any way. For those who have,
or open, a Bugzilla Account you can add additional specific
commentary to the filed bug.
GitHub and Bugzilla are completely separate project
management systems. Thunderbird and Firefox are on Bugzilla.
NVDA is on GitHub.
--
Brian - Windows
10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363
Power is being told
you're not loved and not being destroyed by it.
~ Madonna
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Re: Thunderbird talking way too much
Heck I don't care who fixes it, I just want it fixed.
If nvaccess thinks it can fix this faster than mozilla go for it.
I am over this verbose thing right now, I don't care who fixes
it, there are obviously issues for both of you, its just who is
faster to act.
I'd like to see what mozilla says and does, but in the mean time
if you feel you can make this faster, then as a user I think you
should go for it reguardless.
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
On 10/04/2020 11:07 am, Joseph Lee
wrote:
Hi all,
If this is happening with add-ons off,
chances are that NVDA is picking up events it should not react
to. The most likely candidate is a live region, and if yes, it
is something Thunderbird developers must fix unless folks
insist that NVDA developers do, in which case a workaround
might be written.
Cheers,
Joseph
Considering the popularity of
Thunderbird, NVDA developers might be willing to
implement a fix. Most people won’t have any idea what
to do about these problems. We also don’t know how
much work is involved and how important the fix is
compared to other projects being worked on, but asking
about a fix would be a good idea. I would imagine
that NVDA developers would like to find out how long
it might be before Thunderbird corrects the problem or
if they intend to do so once they get reports.
----- Original Message
-----
Sent:
Thursday, April 09, 2020 5:27 PM
Subject:
Re: [nvda] Thunderbird talking way too much
Gene,
This may not be an NVDA problem specifically but
I believe that the problem does not occur as
frequently, if at all, with JAWS. This is not at all
to suggest that NVDA is at all inferior but only that
it's somehow intercepting these messages differently.
David Goldfield,
Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist
JAWS Certified, 2019
WWW.DavidGoldfield.org
On 4/9/2020 6:15 PM, Gene
wrote:
but this isn’t an NVDA
problem. I suspect there is some way that
speech is being forced, perhaps as in Chrome
during downloads. It would be interesting as
a test to move away from the program window
while something is changing such as when
downloading messages to see if NVDA still
speaks whatever speech is occuring in the
window. In Chrome when a file is downloading,
speech is forced whether you are in the
program window or not.
----- Original
Message -----
Sent:
Thursday, April 09, 2020 2:53 PM
Subject:
Re: [nvda] Thunderbird talking way too
much
Hi Brian,
Your analysis is probably correct, but I am
wondering just why the issue didn't exist in
versions of Thunderbird earlier than 60.9.
Remember, before that time, the status line
was visible, but screen readers: JAWS and NVDA
didn't report all dynamic changes. It was
there and you could read it with the hotkey
for status line.
With the reintroduction of the status line, we
now have this problem. I wonder if NVDA
programers can do something to change
this--perhaps coming up with some sort of
display silently and invoking reading with
hotkey.
On 4/9/2020 10:38 AM,
Brian Vogel wrote:
My guess is that the
good folks at Thunderbird had gotten
complaints that it was impossible to know,
for instance, whether all new e-mail had
completed downloading when you fired up
T-bird at the start of the day, and decided
to expose a lot more information presented
on the status bar to the screen reader.
What they probably hadn't counted on is the
fact that a screen reader will detect
changes and read them as they're detected,
and that's really, really irritating if
you're reading your e-mail messages and
status stuff just barges in while doing so.
If they have sighted folks doing testing for
these new functions, it wouldn't surprise me
if they just sat there when the status bar
was really active watching to see that it
was being reported correctly, never moving
along like one normally would into reading
messages. And I can get that, as even
though I have the status bar displayed, I
virtually never look at it at all. The
occasional glance occurs, but I wouldn't
really miss it at all if it weren't there by
default.
It's well-nigh impossible for most of us who
see to have any real idea of exactly how
screen reader users typically approach using
various pieces of software (and I include
myself, though I do have at least some idea
at this point). And there will never be
enough in-house actual screen reader users
doing accessibility testing. That's one of
the reasons I push so hard to get folks who
encounter accessibility issues to file
bug/issue/trouble reports with the companies
that produce the software. You all are able
to give a far more accurate description of
what the software is doing that you don't
want with the screen reader as well as what
the preferred behavior would be. Also,
given your years of end-user experience,
you're often in a far better position to
know whether the issue you're having is with
the screen reader or due to a change in the
software you're using the screen reader to
access, and that's often the key to getting
to the root of the problem as well as the
fix.
--
Brian - Windows
10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363
Power
is being told you're not loved and not
being destroyed by it.
~
Madonna
--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"
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locked
Re: Bug Reports: Thunderbird talks too much
Well I have never had the issue of not reading status, nvda sends
progress when sending and recieving, in fact the status bar
appears when sending but thats ok.
I don't need every message on the status bar read, message status
maybe would be good, if there is an error or if something is
processing then I'd like to hear a time report on request like I
can get from outlook if I ask it for one, etc.
I don't need a running comentary.
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
On 10/04/2020 11:10 am, Brian Vogel
wrote:
By the way, there
appears to be a related bug on NVDA in GitHub, kind of: NVDA fails to see text in the status bar
of Mozilla Thunderbird 68 and newer
This bug was originally opened in November 2019. It was the flip
side of the current ultra verbose problem.
However, a comment added yesterday reads, "This has been
resolved in Thunderbird version 68.7.0. However, the new issue
is that NVDA now tends to automatically read whatever
Thunderbird displays in its status bar, thereby making the
screen reader quite verbose. I suggest that the auto-reading of
the status bar in Thunderbird version 68.7.0 and newer be
suppressed. This is with NVDA Version alpha-19925,2d73010e."
There are others here who can advise, since this is the case,
whether it's worth creating a new, separate bug or whether, based
on the comment, which appears to have been seen by the those who
check the reports since two tags, "app/thunderbird" and "bug,"
were added in response to that comment yesterday. There's no
point in creating a separate bug if it would either be merged into
this existing one, or if the comment will trigger an issue split
out in to a separate issue. It's a question of where to comment,
and whether that should wait or just occur on the end of the
existing bug, even though the main problem description for that
bug doesn't match the current issue.
--
Brian - Windows
10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363
Power is being told
you're not loved and not being destroyed by it.
~ Madonna
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Re: Bug Reports: Thunderbird talks too much
Well I have reported it to mozilla since it didn't happen before
but hell if you want to crossport it to nvda git then be my guest.
Fact is, I am technically putting it on here, there is an archive
to this topic if people want to make an issue and shove that topic
on the git as a port for nvaccess well who knows.
It would be nice if the dev of the software actually fixed
things.
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
On 10/04/2020 11:15 am, Joseph Lee
wrote:
Hi,
Depending on what is causing it, it might
be best to either:
- Create a new NVDA issue on
GitHub: if NVDA is at fault.
- Report this to Mozilla via
Bugzilla: if it is Thunderbird doing this.
Cheers,
Joseph
By the way, there appears to be a related
bug on NVDA in GitHub, kind of: NVDA fails to see text in the
status bar of Mozilla Thunderbird 68 and newer
This bug was originally opened in November 2019. It was the
flip side of the current ultra verbose problem.
However, a comment added yesterday reads, "This has been
resolved in Thunderbird version 68.7.0. However, the new
issue is that NVDA now tends to automatically read whatever
Thunderbird displays in its status bar, thereby making the
screen reader quite verbose. I suggest that the auto-reading
of the status bar in Thunderbird version 68.7.0 and newer be
suppressed. This is with NVDA Version alpha-19925,2d73010e."
There are others here who can advise, since this is the case,
whether it's worth creating a new, separate bug or whether,
based on the comment, which appears to have been seen by the
those who check the reports since two tags, "app/thunderbird"
and "bug," were added in response to that comment yesterday.
There's no point in creating a separate bug if it would either
be merged into this existing one, or if the comment will
trigger an issue split out in to a separate issue. It's a
question of where to comment, and whether that should wait or
just occur on the end of the existing bug, even though the
main problem description for that bug doesn't match the
current issue.
--
Brian - Windows
10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363
Power is being told
you're not loved and not being destroyed by it.
~ Madonna
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Re: Bug Reports: Thunderbird talks too much
well to be honest I have added a comment to the report that at
least for those with disabilities there actually needs to be a
direct way to email someone to explain without mucking round like
this.
Now bugzilla aint bad butt direct communication I still feel is
best.
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
On 10/04/2020 11:22 am, Brian Vogel
wrote:
Joseph,
Shaun has filed a bug report with Bugzilla for
Thunderbird regarding this issue, for which I gave the direct link
earlier: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1628891
As I mentioned, there is already a bug in GitHub, NVDA
fails to see text in the status bar of Mozilla Thunderbird 68
and newer , that seems to me to be the seed for a new
issue. What I want to know is what is the convention at
NVDA/NVAccess in a situation like this. Since I saw those two
tags added to the existing bug just yesterday, after the comment
reporting the current issue, if they follow a "spin-off protocol"
it would be useless to log a new bug. If, however, they don't
split issues when something like this occurs to spin off a new
issue, it would be worth creating one. I don't want to create
one unless I know it will not be adding more work for the folks
who manage this. I am hoping someone among our regular readership
can shed some light regarding what should happen next.
--
Brian - Windows
10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363
Power is being told
you're not loved and not being destroyed by it.
~ Madonna
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Re: Bug Reports: Thunderbird talks too much
Hi,
I'm running some diagnostic tests at the moment...
From what I've seen over the years, once a user files an issue
with the app developer, NV Access is supposed to be notified of
this. In this case, since the issues described here and on GitHub
are a bit related yet are quite separate, the best way is creating
a new issue with whoever is going to file one providing the direct
link to Bugzilla report. Then:
* If it is NVDA problem, NVDA developers will come up with a fix.
* If this is from Thunderbird, the issue will be closed with
"needs external fix" label attached.
Cheers,
Joseph
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
On 4/9/2020 4:22 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
Joseph,
Shaun has filed a bug report with Bugzilla for
Thunderbird regarding this issue, for which I gave the direct link
earlier: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1628891
As I mentioned, there is already a bug in GitHub, NVDA
fails to see text in the status bar of Mozilla Thunderbird 68
and newer , that seems to me to be the seed for a new
issue. What I want to know is what is the convention at
NVDA/NVAccess in a situation like this. Since I saw those two
tags added to the existing bug just yesterday, after the comment
reporting the current issue, if they follow a "spin-off protocol"
it would be useless to log a new bug. If, however, they don't
split issues when something like this occurs to spin off a new
issue, it would be worth creating one. I don't want to create
one unless I know it will not be adding more work for the folks
who manage this. I am hoping someone among our regular readership
can shed some light regarding what should happen next.
--
Brian - Windows 10
Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909,
Build 18363
Power
is being told you're not loved and not being destroyed by
it.
~ Madonna
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Re: Bug Reports: Thunderbird talks too much
Well the only thing the statusbar needs to do actually is simply
be a blank statusbar and continue not reading so I can continue to
get my progress as normal.
I'd like to be able to customise things so actions I do have
sounds maybe but I don't need a running log output which is what
is currently happening.
I liked it when the status bar was useless but if its going to
have information then I'd like a way to customise things.
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
On 10/04/2020 11:23 am, Adriani Botez
wrote:
Is the
information in the status bar very critical? Is it needed to be
able to use Thunderbird?
If not, then I suggest to open a bug with Mozilla requesting
to include only critical information in the status bar. And
write them exactly which information should be excluded from
reporting.
Best
Adriani
Von meinem iPhone gesendet
Hi,
Depending on what is causing it, it
might be best to either:
- Create a new NVDA issue on
GitHub: if NVDA is at fault.
- Report this to Mozilla via
Bugzilla: if it is Thunderbird doing this.
Cheers,
Joseph
By the way, there appears to be a
related bug on NVDA in GitHub, kind of: NVDA fails to see text in
the status bar of Mozilla Thunderbird 68 and newer
This bug was originally opened in November 2019. It was
the flip side of the current ultra verbose problem.
However, a comment added yesterday reads, "This
has been resolved in Thunderbird version 68.7.0.
However, the new issue is that NVDA now tends to
automatically read whatever Thunderbird displays in
its status bar, thereby making the screen reader quite
verbose. I suggest that the auto-reading of the status
bar in Thunderbird version 68.7.0 and newer be
suppressed. This is with NVDA Version
alpha-19925,2d73010e."
There are others here who can advise, since this is the
case, whether it's worth creating a new, separate bug or
whether, based on the comment, which appears to have
been seen by the those who check the reports since two
tags, "app/thunderbird" and "bug," were added in
response to that comment yesterday. There's no point in
creating a separate bug if it would either be merged
into this existing one, or if the comment will trigger
an issue split out in to a separate issue. It's a
question of where to comment, and whether that should
wait or just occur on the end of the existing bug, even
though the main problem description for that bug doesn't
match the current issue.
--
Brian - Windows
10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363
Power is being
told you're not loved and not being destroyed by it.
~ Madonna
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Re: Bug Reports: Thunderbird talks too much
Does this occur with nvda 2019.2.1? Von meinem iPhone gesendet
Am 10.04.2020 um 01:27 schrieb Brian Vogel <britechguy@...>:
On Thu, Apr 9, 2020 at 07:24 PM, Adriani Botez wrote:
[Status Bar] Is it needed to be able to use Thunderbird?
No, but it's already been pretty clearly identified that NVDA is doing something quite different than any other screen reader is doing with the same release of Thunderbird for the same data, as I very much doubt that Thunderbird does anything differently based on which screen reader is used if one is used at all. This is an instance where there is enough data to strongly suggest an NVDA bug of some sort. --
Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363
Power is being told you're not loved and not being destroyed by it.
~ Madonna
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locked
Re: Bug Reports: Thunderbird talks too much
On Thu, Apr 9, 2020 at 07:24 PM, Adriani Botez wrote:
[Status Bar] Is it needed to be able to use Thunderbird?
No, but it's already been pretty clearly identified that NVDA is doing something quite different than any other screen reader is doing with the same release of Thunderbird for the same data, as I very much doubt that Thunderbird does anything differently based on which screen reader is used if one is used at all. This is an instance where there is enough data to strongly suggest an NVDA bug of some sort. --
Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363
Power is being told you're not loved and not being destroyed by it.
~ Madonna
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Re: Bug Reports: Thunderbird talks too much
Is the information in the status bar very critical? Is it needed to be able to use Thunderbird? If not, then I suggest to open a bug with Mozilla requesting to include only critical information in the status bar. And write them exactly which information should be excluded from reporting.
Best
Adriani Von meinem iPhone gesendet
Am 10.04.2020 um 01:15 schrieb Joseph Lee <joseph.lee22590@...>:
Hi, Depending on what is causing it, it might be best to either: - Create a new NVDA issue on GitHub: if NVDA is at fault.
- Report this to Mozilla via Bugzilla: if it is Thunderbird doing this.
Cheers, Joseph From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Thursday, April 9, 2020 4:11 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Bug Reports: Thunderbird talks too much By the way, there appears to be a related bug on NVDA in GitHub, kind of: NVDA fails to see text in the status bar of Mozilla Thunderbird 68 and newer
This bug was originally opened in November 2019. It was the flip side of the current ultra verbose problem.
However, a comment added yesterday reads, "This has been resolved in Thunderbird version 68.7.0. However, the new issue is that NVDA now tends to automatically read whatever Thunderbird displays in its status bar, thereby making the screen reader quite verbose. I suggest that the auto-reading of the status bar in Thunderbird version 68.7.0 and newer be suppressed. This is with NVDA Version alpha-19925,2d73010e."
There are others here who can advise, since this is the case, whether it's worth creating a new, separate bug or whether, based on the comment, which appears to have been seen by the those who check the reports since two tags, "app/thunderbird" and "bug," were added in response to that comment yesterday. There's no point in creating a separate bug if it would either be merged into this existing one, or if the comment will trigger an issue split out in to a separate issue. It's a question of where to comment, and whether that should wait or just occur on the end of the existing bug, even though the main problem description for that bug doesn't match the current issue.
-- Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363 Power is being told you're not loved and not being destroyed by it. ~ Madonna
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Re: Bug Reports: Thunderbird talks too much
Joseph, Shaun has filed a bug report with Bugzilla for Thunderbird regarding this issue, for which I gave the direct link earlier: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1628891 As I mentioned, there is already a bug in GitHub, NVDA fails to see text in the status bar of Mozilla Thunderbird 68 and newer , that seems to me to be the seed for a new issue. What I want to know is what is the convention at NVDA/NVAccess in a situation like this. Since I saw those two tags added to the existing bug just yesterday, after the comment reporting the current issue, if they follow a "spin-off protocol" it would be useless to log a new bug. If, however, they don't split issues when something like this occurs to spin off a new issue, it would be worth creating one. I don't want to create one unless I know it will not be adding more work for the folks who manage this. I am hoping someone among our regular readership can shed some light regarding what should happen next. --
Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363
Power is being told you're not loved and not being destroyed by it.
~ Madonna
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Re: Bug Reports: Thunderbird talks too much
Hi, Depending on what is causing it, it might be best to either: - Create a new NVDA issue on GitHub: if NVDA is at fault.
- Report this to Mozilla via Bugzilla: if it is Thunderbird doing this.
Cheers, Joseph
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel Sent: Thursday, April 9, 2020 4:11 PM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] Bug Reports: Thunderbird talks too much By the way, there appears to be a related bug on NVDA in GitHub, kind of: NVDA fails to see text in the status bar of Mozilla Thunderbird 68 and newer
This bug was originally opened in November 2019. It was the flip side of the current ultra verbose problem.
However, a comment added yesterday reads, "This has been resolved in Thunderbird version 68.7.0. However, the new issue is that NVDA now tends to automatically read whatever Thunderbird displays in its status bar, thereby making the screen reader quite verbose. I suggest that the auto-reading of the status bar in Thunderbird version 68.7.0 and newer be suppressed. This is with NVDA Version alpha-19925,2d73010e."
There are others here who can advise, since this is the case, whether it's worth creating a new, separate bug or whether, based on the comment, which appears to have been seen by the those who check the reports since two tags, "app/thunderbird" and "bug," were added in response to that comment yesterday. There's no point in creating a separate bug if it would either be merged into this existing one, or if the comment will trigger an issue split out in to a separate issue. It's a question of where to comment, and whether that should wait or just occur on the end of the existing bug, even though the main problem description for that bug doesn't match the current issue.
-- Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363 Power is being told you're not loved and not being destroyed by it. ~ Madonna
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Re: Thunderbird talking way too much
Hi, Unless I’m wrong, I think unchecking either one won’t help: - Report notification: deals with certain notification events such as help balloons.
- Report object description: a specific property of an object.
At least it won’t hurt to try unchecking them, and that doesn’t help, it might be time to generate an emergency app module for Thunderbird that’ll track events and figure out what’s up. Cheers, Joseph
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Adriani Botez Sent: Thursday, April 9, 2020 4:09 PM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] Thunderbird talking way too much Does it not solve the problem if create a profile for thunderbird and then in nvda‘s object presentation settings, turn off report notification or report object description? Von meinem iPhone gesendet Considering the popularity of Thunderbird, NVDA developers might be willing to implement a fix. Most people won’t have any idea what to do about these problems. We also don’t know how much work is involved and how important the fix is compared to other projects being worked on, but asking about a fix would be a good idea. I would imagine that NVDA developers would like to find out how long it might be before Thunderbird corrects the problem or if they intend to do so once they get reports. ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2020 5:27 PM Subject: Re: [nvda] Thunderbird talking way too much Gene, This may not be an NVDA problem specifically but I believe that the problem does not occur as frequently, if at all, with JAWS. This is not at all to suggest that NVDA is at all inferior but only that it's somehow intercepting these messages differently. David Goldfield, Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist JAWS Certified, 2019 WWW.DavidGoldfield.org On 4/9/2020 6:15 PM, Gene wrote: but this isn’t an NVDA problem. I suspect there is some way that speech is being forced, perhaps as in Chrome during downloads. It would be interesting as a test to move away from the program window while something is changing such as when downloading messages to see if NVDA still speaks whatever speech is occuring in the window. In Chrome when a file is downloading, speech is forced whether you are in the program window or not. ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2020 2:53 PM Subject: Re: [nvda] Thunderbird talking way too much Hi Brian,
Your analysis is probably correct, but I am wondering just why the issue didn't exist in versions of Thunderbird earlier than 60.9. Remember, before that time, the status line was visible, but screen readers: JAWS and NVDA didn't report all dynamic changes. It was there and you could read it with the hotkey for status line.
With the reintroduction of the status line, we now have this problem. I wonder if NVDA programers can do something to change this--perhaps coming up with some sort of display silently and invoking reading with hotkey.
On 4/9/2020 10:38 AM, Brian Vogel wrote: My guess is that the good folks at Thunderbird had gotten complaints that it was impossible to know, for instance, whether all new e-mail had completed downloading when you fired up T-bird at the start of the day, and decided to expose a lot more information presented on the status bar to the screen reader.
What they probably hadn't counted on is the fact that a screen reader will detect changes and read them as they're detected, and that's really, really irritating if you're reading your e-mail messages and status stuff just barges in while doing so.
If they have sighted folks doing testing for these new functions, it wouldn't surprise me if they just sat there when the status bar was really active watching to see that it was being reported correctly, never moving along like one normally would into reading messages. And I can get that, as even though I have the status bar displayed, I virtually never look at it at all. The occasional glance occurs, but I wouldn't really miss it at all if it weren't there by default.
It's well-nigh impossible for most of us who see to have any real idea of exactly how screen reader users typically approach using various pieces of software (and I include myself, though I do have at least some idea at this point). And there will never be enough in-house actual screen reader users doing accessibility testing. That's one of the reasons I push so hard to get folks who encounter accessibility issues to file bug/issue/trouble reports with the companies that produce the software. You all are able to give a far more accurate description of what the software is doing that you don't want with the screen reader as well as what the preferred behavior would be. Also, given your years of end-user experience, you're often in a far better position to know whether the issue you're having is with the screen reader or due to a change in the software you're using the screen reader to access, and that's often the key to getting to the root of the problem as well as the fix.
-- Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363 Power is being told you're not loved and not being destroyed by it. ~ Madonna
-- They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes. They ask: "How Happy are You?" I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"
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locked
Re: Bug Reports: Thunderbird talks too much
By the way, there appears to be a related bug on NVDA in GitHub, kind of: NVDA fails to see text in the status bar of Mozilla Thunderbird 68 and newerThis bug was originally opened in November 2019. It was the flip side of the current ultra verbose problem. However, a comment added yesterday reads, " This has been resolved in Thunderbird version 68.7.0. However, the new issue is that NVDA now tends to automatically read whatever Thunderbird displays in its status bar, thereby making the screen reader quite verbose. I suggest that the auto-reading of the status bar in Thunderbird version 68.7.0 and newer be suppressed. This is with NVDA Version alpha-19925,2d73010e." There are others here who can advise, since this is the case, whether it's worth creating a new, separate bug or whether, based on the comment, which appears to have been seen by the those who check the reports since two tags, "app/thunderbird" and "bug," were added in response to that comment yesterday. There's no point in creating a separate bug if it would either be merged into this existing one, or if the comment will trigger an issue split out in to a separate issue. It's a question of where to comment, and whether that should wait or just occur on the end of the existing bug, even though the main problem description for that bug doesn't match the current issue. --
Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363
Power is being told you're not loved and not being destroyed by it.
~ Madonna
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locked
Re: Thunderbird talking way too much
Does it not solve the problem if create a profile for thunderbird and then in nvda‘s object presentation settings, turn off report notification or report object description?
Best Adriani Von meinem iPhone gesendet
Am 10.04.2020 um 00:54 schrieb Gene <gsasner@...>:
Considering the popularity of Thunderbird, NVDA developers might be willing
to implement a fix. Most people won’t have any idea what to do about these
problems. We also don’t know how much work is involved and how important
the fix is compared to other projects being worked on, but asking about a fix
would be a good idea. I would imagine that NVDA developers would like to
find out how long it might be before Thunderbird corrects the problem or if they
intend to do so once they get reports.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2020 5:27 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Thunderbird talking way too
much
Gene,
This may not be an NVDA problem specifically but I believe that the problem
does not occur as frequently, if at all, with JAWS. This is not at all to
suggest that NVDA is at all inferior but only that it's somehow intercepting
these messages differently.
David Goldfield,
Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist
JAWS Certified, 2019
WWW.DavidGoldfield.org
On 4/9/2020 6:15 PM, Gene wrote:
but this isn’t an NVDA problem. I suspect there is some way that
speech is being forced, perhaps as in Chrome during downloads. It would
be interesting as a test to move away from the program window while something
is changing such as when downloading messages to see if NVDA still speaks
whatever speech is occuring in the window. In Chrome when a file is
downloading, speech is forced whether you are in the program window or
not.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2020 2:53 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Thunderbird talking way too
much
Hi Brian, Your analysis is probably correct, but I am wondering
just why the issue didn't exist in versions of Thunderbird earlier than
60.9. Remember, before that time, the status line was visible, but
screen readers: JAWS and NVDA didn't report all dynamic changes. It was
there and you could read it with the hotkey for status line.
With the reintroduction of the status line, we now have this
problem. I wonder if NVDA programers can do something to change
this--perhaps coming up with some sort of display silently and invoking
reading with hotkey.
On 4/9/2020 10:38 AM, Brian Vogel wrote:
My guess
is that the good folks at Thunderbird had gotten complaints that it was
impossible to know, for instance, whether all new e-mail had completed
downloading when you fired up T-bird at the start of the day, and decided to
expose a lot more information presented on the status bar to the screen
reader.
What they probably hadn't counted on is the fact that a
screen reader will detect changes and read them as they're detected, and
that's really, really irritating if you're reading your e-mail messages and
status stuff just barges in while doing so.
If they have sighted
folks doing testing for these new functions, it wouldn't surprise me if they
just sat there when the status bar was really active watching to see that it
was being reported correctly, never moving along like one normally would
into reading messages. And I can get that, as even though I have the
status bar displayed, I virtually never look at it at all. The
occasional glance occurs, but I wouldn't really miss it at all if it weren't
there by default.
It's well-nigh impossible for most of us who see to
have any real idea of exactly how screen reader users typically approach
using various pieces of software (and I include myself, though I do have at
least some idea at this point). And there will never be enough
in-house actual screen reader users doing accessibility testing.
That's one of the reasons I push so hard to get folks who encounter
accessibility issues to file bug/issue/trouble reports with the companies
that produce the software. You all are able to give a far more
accurate description of what the software is doing that you don't want with
the screen reader as well as what the preferred behavior would be.
Also, given your years of end-user experience, you're often in a far better
position to know whether the issue you're having is with the screen reader
or due to a change in the software you're using the screen reader to access,
and that's often the key to getting to the root of the problem as well as
the fix.
--
Brian
- Windows 10
Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build
18363
Power is being told you're not
loved and not being destroyed by it.
~
Madonna
--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"
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