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Re: Thunderbird talking way too much
On Thu, Apr 9, 2020 at 05:26 PM, Shaun Everiss wrote:
No Shaun, you do. It's not all about you, and you seem to think it is and should be. You work with the mechanisms available, and those change. -- Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363 Power is being told you're not loved and not being destroyed by it. ~ Madonna
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Re: Thunderbird talking way too much
Its a bit hard jean if they don't have any email addresses. I refuse to use their forums or twitter unless I realllly have no choice. Email is the easiest way to contact someone. If they can't be bothered with this then we have an issue.
On 10/04/2020 6:42 am, Gene wrote:
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Re: Thunderbird talking way too much
I'd rather not see the status bar, at least as far as emails are concerned. I don't use it anyway, so fo rme that unchecking is a good work around. Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website. to subscribe to the feed click here and you can also follow us on twitter Our discord is where you will know when we go live on [twitch.](http://twitch.tv/ke7zum] Feel free to give the channel a follow and see what is up there. For stream archives, products you can buy and more visit my main lbry page and my tffp lbry page YOu will also be able to buy some of my products and eBooks there. Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here
On 9 Apr 2020, at 12:45, Ron Canazzi wrote:
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Re: Thunderbird talking way too much
Jean a big issue is stability. I have 1 machine here. So I could test something, then it screws up everything. Then I need to reinstall what that is, or completely reformat and reinstall the os. Technically I do have another machine but no room to test it. I could vm things I guess but that could be hit and miss at times to. Your average user wants to get their stuff and go. Back in the day I did try to do this. It can be done, but its rough. A bug can appear which looks worse than it is but isn't noticable until you think smaller. Winamp plugins can get out of date, in this example, I was testing dolphin maps. My system was all loopy because of 1 little file in 1 folder. That file was causing the app to malfunction badly. But it looked like an os issue. Running the fixes didn't help, running several reformat didn't help. It was only after my 10th reformat of the day that I decided to look at the maps I had installed on test, I found the map causing the issue and reported it. However after that experience, unless I get a bigger desk and another machine to test unstable stuff on that if it screws up and I need to reformat regularly and it doesn't matter, I won't be doing that. I don't have room right now for either and I am to chicken to try again. I have enough issue keeping all things updated on my stable system, doing my testing and other things and living my life without a system going down because of something trivial. That was back in my teens and 20s. I will be 38 this year, my time seeing what this button does is over. If it really screws up like it did last year, then it screwed up but I don't care or enjoy fixing it anymore if it does. I would prefur not to cause things to screw up by chance.
On 10/04/2020 6:23 am, Gene wrote:
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Re: google chrome version 81
Dejan Ristic
Hi,
Glad to have heard it.
Dejan On 09/04/2020 22:53, Brian Vogel wrote:
Mohammad,
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Re: Thunderbird talking way too much
On Thu, Apr 9, 2020 at 05:14 PM, Shaun Everiss wrote:
If thunderbird has a github I may actually try to post a bug at that.No, they don't. As I already reported, all Mozilla products do their project management via Bugzilla, not GitHub (which is what NVAccess does use for NVDA, and many NVDA add-ons have their own projects on GitHub). -- Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363 Power is being told you're not loved and not being destroyed by it. ~ Madonna
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Re: Thunderbird talking way too much
Yeah ccleaner got a bit like that. Now flash fxp hmmm well that was a bit better. Of course if you join a beta test team like I have done with dolphin and wordpress I can skip all official contact channels and use an internal method to report bugs directly and they do get fixed but thats a bit different.
On 10/04/2020 5:52 am, Sarah k Alawami
wrote:
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Re: Thunderbird talking way too much
On Thu, Apr 9, 2020 at 05:03 PM, Shaun Everiss wrote:
Well jean its a bit hard to do this when they have no direct support email address.There are lots of places that don't do e-mail support anymore. And I actually generally find what I need either by searching their community forums or just doing a web search on the issue I'm having if we're talking about a release version. If you want to report bugs, either for Mozilla Firefox or Thunderbird, then get an account at https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/home Here's a search on that page, without being logged in, on just Thunderbird: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/buglist.cgi?quicksearch=Thunderbird Were I actually trying to determine whether a specific issue already exists I would add keywords other than just Thunderbird. -- Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363 Power is being told you're not loved and not being destroyed by it. ~ Madonna
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Re: Thunderbird talking way too much
Its also hard when direct support or forms are not available.
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In this case, there is a forum and a twitter and that is that. Turning things off has fixed my issue, junk filter = no junk, remote content = no alerts. That I can live with. Status bars mean no progress from nvda, and well its starting to effect me now. I could join another email list and maybe I will try to figure out the forum, but you need a firefox sync account to access the thing and while I do there is no actual way to make a google login work or anything like that so yeah its just harder. If thunderbird has a github I may actually try to post a bug at that. I've been able to put up with issues, but now its got to the stage where I need to do something about it. Maybe I should become a beta tester of thunderbird and subscribe to the list. Trouble is I don't want to have different profiles for this and that.
On 10/04/2020 5:34 am, Rob Hudson wrote:
Brian Vogel <britechguy@gmail.com> wrote:My point, which seems to have eluded you, is that I constantly see complaints about issues, but when I (or you, or anyone else) bring up the fact that you must report them if you want to have any hope of their being resolved there is generally nothing but the proverbial crickets in response.This is likely because too many screen reader users have seen the, sorry but I can't duplicate this. Next! Message in response. In addition, there are some larger issues.
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Re: Thunderbird talking way too much
Well jean its a bit hard to do this when they have no direct support email address. They have their forum which I have issues navigating, they have twitter which while I will use it if I must I really don't like. There is no support email address or anything. I guess I could get on one of the descussion lists, but I get allready so much traffic as it is. If there was a way to get in contact or someone could help me get in touch with someone then yeah maybe we can get this sorted. Right now, I am unsure what to do. With all the issues with firefox 75 and the like, and if the betas of thunderbird go that way to then I may have to look for and learn another client. I don't really want to use another client. The thunderbird interface works and its accessable and with some configurations its reasonably fast here. If push comes to shove, I will downgrade to 52x which was the last mozilla version in the old format, however I am unsure if security certs will continue to run on it. The new quantom interface works well, hmmm maybe, I do know a few testers or at least 1 beta tester on here I think the user is roland, maybe I can get him to report this, who knows.
On 10/04/2020 4:01 am, Gene wrote:
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Re: Thunderbird talking way too much
Well I wish there was a direct way to contact them. I was able to login to their forum but I couldn't make heads of the pages on it or maybe I wasn't looking properly. I know there is twitter and I have twblue but after what twitter did to their streaming support well we are not exactly friendly, I'll use it if I must, but I'd still prefer a direct email contact. Right now the status bar is to verbose. And having almost every message stating it has remote content in it is why I have that turned off right now. All I want to know is if the html with headings and the like will load. I don't care if there is malware in it, all I care is if removing it or stripping it will efect the message I am viewing and any links especially if they are ones I was expecting like in a news letter. I do appreciate the extra feadback but I am getting so much at once. Now if all that feadback could be converted into a different sound and I could customise those sounds to my liking and or have a soundtheme that came with thunderbird, then I think it could be manageable. Luckily I have junk filters off but I'd really like either a sound for potential junk or a way for thunderbird to improve their junk filters. What is the use of saying there is potentially bad content in a message when every message has that potential especially since most are html. What is the point of every message being potentially flagged is spam when most of them are not. I am not angry but right now, I just turn it off and I get round it that way. However there must be an easier way to handle all this information. Right now I am getting so much feedback it may as well be noise. If there is a remote content stripper or something that would be fine. I don't use or need images, I want the page and headings, and links to display properly. I'd also like the ability to have all links exposed so if I was given a click here I could see what it was. Is there something allready or do I need to report all this. Also how to do it, have have users sent requests and such to thunderbird before. I'd dearly much would like to do this.
On 10/04/2020 2:38 am, Brian Vogel
wrote:
My guess is that the good folks at Thunderbird had gotten complaints that it was impossible to know, for instance, whether all new e-mail had completed downloading when you fired up T-bird at the start of the day, and decided to expose a lot more information presented on the status bar to the screen reader.
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Re: Thunderbird talking way too much
On Thu, Apr 9, 2020 at 04:27 PM, Howard Traxler wrote:
With this new updateCan you please give the version number? ALT+H,A -- Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363 Power is being told you're not loved and not being destroyed by it. ~ Madonna
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Re: google chrome version 81
Mohammad,
Just as an FYI, your report was deemed a duplicate and merged into Issue 1069448: neither NVDA nore Jaws screen readers are able to read PDF documents in latest Chrome version 81 stableIt was deemed a regression bug, and apparently a fix has already been made as of earlier this afternoon. The final line of the issue above notes: Good news, this is a duplicate of bug 1047856 which has just been verified as having been fixed. I'll merge this bug now. If you have any questions or concerns after Chrome updates with the fix, please let us know! -- Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363 Power is being told you're not loved and not being destroyed by it. ~ Madonna
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Re: Thunderbird talking way too much
Well it does and it doesn't I now have no email progress so when its downloading I don't hear it doing so.
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On 10/04/2020 2:17 am, Roger Stewart wrote:
Yes, turning off the status bar fixed it completely!
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Re: Thunderbird talking way too much
Howard Traxler
With this new update, when I have a message open and hit delete, it explaines every step of what has to be done to connect to the server, put the message into the trash folder, check for new messages, then download the next message. It doesn't seem to be quite so chatty when I delete from the list of messages.
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In the old days, (in; like; soft vert and vocal eyes, we could make a piece of the screen silent. Is that function still available in JAWS or NVDA?
On 4/9/2020 2:46 PM, cecropia64 wrote:
i think it was Mike who suggested turning off the status bar. i did this and it worked fine. it works for me like it used to before i upgraded.
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Re: Thunderbird talking way too much
Ron,
Accessibility is like all other things in that, "You can't please all of the people all of the time," and there is the added bonus of trying to decide what information to expose to a screen reader. I have tried to explain, from a sighted perspective, just how much of what appears on any screen that those of us who see do ignore - we just filter it out as non-significant background clutter - except on the very rare occasion we might have an occasion to use it. And a great deal of this kind of stuff is truly never attended to visually or otherwise by a majority of users. Some of it is there as much for troubleshooting purposes as anything else. Joseph Lee first introduced me to the concept of "information blackout" for screen reader users, and because I had already tutored many in learning basic skills the concept immediately clicked. As someone with sight, I can take in the entire gestalt of the screen and, without even realizing I'm doing it, processing information so that I know what to attend to and what to ignore. A screen reader user can never do this and, even worse, is largely at the mercy of how well something is coded (particularly web pages) in terms of what the screen reader itself encounters first and presents to them. If you rely on just sitting there and letting the screen reader read for anything other than completely unfamiliar material, you end up wasting a huge amount of time, and sometimes do for even unfamiliar material. Using things like the screen reader search function, when you are virtually certain that the thing you are looking for is present and you know what word(s) would identify it, is what lets you zero in on the actual content you want. That and using things like the NVDA elements lists to "hit the high points" in exploring material quickly rather than hoping you'll trip over something via reading. But even if you are the perfect, ultra efficient screen reader user, you will still never be 100% certain that you've seen/heard everything, and that's even if you allow a read all from the start. You really can't take it all in at once and do a preliminary filtering, and in any visual medium (and all print media like web pages, magazines, etc.) are visual media. The Thunderbird status line has always been visible by default, but it clearly has not had its content exposed to screen readers in the manner it is being exposed now. I understood instantly what the problem was when I was watching and listening to someone using beta Thunderbird, and why it would drive one to madness in short order. I can't imagine how few instances there would be in daily life where a screen reader user would give a fig about information being presented by the status bar when they are in the midst of actually reading e-mail. It's an absolute intrusion, and one that doesn't allow you to absorb the content of your message nor the status bar in any useful way as well. Someone made a boo boo. Who knows who, or why, but at least it can be remedied if identified. And even though turning off the status bar works, since it's on by default and you probably don't care about it then it's worth telling the Thunderbird folks what a hash this change has made. -- Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363 Power is being told you're not loved and not being destroyed by it. ~ Madonna
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Re: Thunderbird talking way too much
Ron Canazzi
Hi Rob,
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Boy do you make some good points here. I used to be a private beta tester for JAWS way back. Back in 2004, the anti virus program Trend Micro Internet Security was almost totally accessible. Beginning in 2008, they went from a menu driven system to an HTML type interface. However, the HTML interface was not standard. I took it upon myself to launch a kind of crusade to get the developers to realize that this change made most aspects of Trend Micro Internet Security inaccessible. You could see many of the controls, but you could not interact with check boxes or buttons. I went round and round both with e-mails and even via 800 tech support. After about three weeks, they kept elevating me to supposedly higher levels of development. Finally, three weeks into this odyssey, they via telephone, put me in contact with the head developer. When I went through my by this time memorized description of the issue, he replied in broken English: "How Do Ya use a computer if you blind?" Nothing came of this and as far as I know, the program such as it is is still largely inaccessible. See what I mean.
On 4/9/2020 1:34 PM, Rob Hudson wrote:
Brian Vogel <britechguy@gmail.com> wrote:My point, which seems to have eluded you, is that I constantly see complaints about issues, but when I (or you, or anyone else) bring up the fact that you must report them if you want to have any hope of their being resolved there is generally nothing but the proverbial crickets in response.This is likely because too many screen reader users have seen the, sorry but I can't duplicate this. Next! Message in response. In addition, there are some larger issues. --
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes. They ask: "How Happy are You?" I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"
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Re: Thunderbird talking way too much
Ron Canazzi
Hi Brian,
I and many others do file bug reports. I don't buy this stuff you keep promoting about lazy, good for nothing blind people. As a private beta tester and overall ravel rouses, I can't count the number of e-mails to software developers I have sent. The real issue is that the software developers are many times just plain insensitive to these complaints. This does not mean we shouldn't try, but simply condemning all blind people or most blind people in the way you do is not valid. On 4/9/2020 12:57 PM, Brian Vogel
wrote:
On Thu, Apr 9, 2020 at 12:42 PM, Gene wrote: -- They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes. They ask: "How Happy are You?" I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"
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Re: Thunderbird talking way too much
On Thu, Apr 9, 2020 at 03:47 PM, Gene wrote:
at the same time, it shouldn’t be almost all our responsibility.Sorry, (and that's without snark) but it is always going to be "almost all our responsibility" when it comes to advocacy for tiny minorities. It just goes with the territory. That's something I tried to teach all of my clients when I was doing brain injury rehab, too. No one knows what it's like, really, to actually live with one, if they aren't actually doing just that and those who are compose a minuscule part of the human population. Speaking up for yourselves is the only way you'll be heard, and that generally requires virtually continual effort. It just goes with the territory and your numbers. And while I think it would be absolutely fabulous were every software development company to be able to recruit a decent cadre of screen reader users for testing, I don't ever see that happening. To be a professional tester you generally need to be very proficient not only with a screen reader but with the underlying software being tested and that combination doesn't come around often. But I definitely think that all companies could come up with the accessibility testing equivalent of the Microsoft Insiders program, where folks volunteer to test as a part of their daily, casual use of the next generation of program X and are expected to file issue reports as needed. You are absolutely correct that direct outreach is likely the only way that any sort of critical mass in accessibility users doing accessibility testing will ever occur. To be honest, even if that outreach is done, I am not convinced that it ever will. But that doesn't make the effort not worth undertaking, as it would undoubtedly be an improvement. -- Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363 Power is being told you're not loved and not being destroyed by it. ~ Madonna
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Re: Thunderbird talking way too much
Ron Canazzi
Hi Brian,
Your analysis is probably correct, but I am wondering just why the issue didn't exist in versions of Thunderbird earlier than 60.9. Remember, before that time, the status line was visible, but screen readers: JAWS and NVDA didn't report all dynamic changes. It was there and you could read it with the hotkey for status line. With the reintroduction of the status line, we now have this problem. I wonder if NVDA programers can do something to change this--perhaps coming up with some sort of display silently and invoking reading with hotkey. On 4/9/2020 10:38 AM, Brian Vogel
wrote:
My guess is that the good folks at Thunderbird had gotten complaints that it was impossible to know, for instance, whether all new e-mail had completed downloading when you fired up T-bird at the start of the day, and decided to expose a lot more information presented on the status bar to the screen reader. -- They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes. They ask: "How Happy are You?" I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"
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