Am 10.04.2020 um 01:15 schrieb Joseph Lee <joseph.lee22590@...>:



Hi,

Depending on what is causing it, it might be best to either:

• Create a new NVDA issue on GitHub: if NVDA is at fault.
• Report this to Mozilla via Bugzilla: if it is Thunderbird doing this.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Thursday, April 9, 2020 4:11 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Bug Reports: Thunderbird talks too much

 

By the way, there appears to be a related bug on NVDA in GitHub, kind of:  NVDA fails to see text in the status bar of Mozilla Thunderbird 68 and newer
This bug was originally opened in November 2019.  It was the flip side of the current ultra verbose problem.  

However, a comment added yesterday reads, "This has been resolved in Thunderbird version 68.7.0. However, the new issue is that NVDA now tends to automatically read whatever Thunderbird displays in its status bar, thereby making the screen reader quite verbose. I suggest that the auto-reading of the status bar in Thunderbird version 68.7.0 and newer be suppressed. This is with NVDA Version alpha-19925,2d73010e."

There are others here who can advise, since this is the case, whether it's worth creating a new, separate bug or whether, based on the comment, which appears to have been seen by the those who check the reports since two tags, "app/thunderbird" and "bug," were added in response to that comment yesterday.  There's no point in creating a separate bug if it would either be merged into this existing one, or if the comment will trigger an issue split out in to a separate issue.  It's a question of where to comment, and whether that should wait or just occur on the end of the existing bug, even though the main problem description for that bug doesn't match the current issue.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363  

Power is being told you're not loved and not being destroyed by it.

       ~ Madonna

 

 

By the way, there appears to be a related bug on NVDA in GitHub, kind of:  NVDA fails to see text in the status bar of Mozilla Thunderbird 68 and newer
This bug was originally opened in November 2019.  It was the flip side of the current ultra verbose problem.  

However, a comment added yesterday reads, "This has been resolved in Thunderbird version 68.7.0. However, the new issue is that NVDA now tends to automatically read whatever Thunderbird displays in its status bar, thereby making the screen reader quite verbose. I suggest that the auto-reading of the status bar in Thunderbird version 68.7.0 and newer be suppressed. This is with NVDA Version alpha-19925,2d73010e."

There are others here who can advise, since this is the case, whether it's worth creating a new, separate bug or whether, based on the comment, which appears to have been seen by the those who check the reports since two tags, "app/thunderbird" and "bug," were added in response to that comment yesterday.  There's no point in creating a separate bug if it would either be merged into this existing one, or if the comment will trigger an issue split out in to a separate issue.  It's a question of where to comment, and whether that should wait or just occur on the end of the existing bug, even though the main problem description for that bug doesn't match the current issue.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363  

Power is being told you're not loved and not being destroyed by it.

       ~ Madonna

Does it not solve the problem if create a profile for thunderbird and then in nvda‘s object presentation settings, turn off report notification or report object description?

Am 10.04.2020 um 00:54 schrieb Gene <gsasner@...>:



Considering the popularity of Thunderbird, NVDA developers might be willing to implement a fix.  Most people won’t have any idea what to do about these problems.  We also don’t know how much work is involved and how important the fix is compared to other projects being worked on, but asking about a fix would be a good idea.  I would imagine that NVDA developers would like to find out how long it might be before Thunderbird corrects the problem or if they intend to do so once they get reports.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: David Goldfield

Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2020 5:27 PM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] Thunderbird talking way too much

 

Gene,

This may not be an NVDA problem specifically but I believe that the problem does not occur as frequently, if at all, with JAWS. This is not at all to suggest that NVDA is at all inferior but only that it's somehow intercepting these messages differently.

David Goldfield,
Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist
JAWS Certified, 2019

WWW.DavidGoldfield.org

On 4/9/2020 6:15 PM, Gene wrote:

 

but this isn’t an NVDA problem.  I suspect there is some way that speech is being forced, perhaps as in Chrome during downloads.  It would be interesting as a test to move away from the program window while something is changing such as when downloading messages to see if NVDA still speaks whatever speech is occuring in the window.  In Chrome when a file is downloading, speech is forced whether you are in the program window or not. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Ron Canazzi

Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2020 2:53 PM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] Thunderbird talking way too much

 

Hi Brian,

Your analysis is probably correct, but I am wondering just why the issue didn't exist in versions of Thunderbird earlier than 60.9.  Remember, before that time, the status line was visible, but screen readers: JAWS and NVDA didn't report all dynamic changes.  It was there and you could read it with the hotkey for status line. 

With the reintroduction of the status line, we now have this problem.  I wonder if NVDA programers can do something to change this--perhaps coming up with some sort of display silently and invoking reading with hotkey.

On 4/9/2020 10:38 AM, Brian Vogel wrote:

My guess is that the good folks at Thunderbird had gotten complaints that it was impossible to know, for instance, whether all new e-mail had completed downloading when you fired up T-bird at the start of the day, and decided to expose a lot more information presented on the status bar to the screen reader.

What they probably hadn't counted on is the fact that a screen reader will detect changes and read them as they're detected, and that's really, really irritating if you're reading your e-mail messages and status stuff just barges in while doing so.

If they have sighted folks doing testing for these new functions, it wouldn't surprise me if they just sat there when the status bar was really active watching to see that it was being reported correctly, never moving along like one normally would into reading messages.  And I can get that, as even though I have the status bar displayed, I virtually never look at it at all.  The occasional glance occurs, but I wouldn't really miss it at all if it weren't there by default.

It's well-nigh impossible for most of us who see to have any real idea of exactly how screen reader users typically approach using various pieces of software (and I include myself, though I do have at least some idea at this point).  And there will never be enough in-house actual screen reader users doing accessibility testing.  That's one of the reasons I push so hard to get folks who encounter accessibility issues to file bug/issue/trouble reports with the companies that produce the software.  You all are able to give a far more accurate description of what the software is doing that you don't want with the screen reader as well as what the preferred behavior would be.  Also, given your years of end-user experience, you're often in a far better position to know whether the issue you're having is with the screen reader or due to a change in the software you're using the screen reader to access, and that's often the key to getting to the root of the problem as well as the fix.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363  

Power is being told you're not loved and not being destroyed by it.

       ~ Madonna

 

 

-- 
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"

Hi Rob,

Boy do you make some good points here.  I used to be a private beta

tester for JAWS way back.  Back in 2004, the anti virus program Trend

Micro Internet Security was almost totally accessible. Beginning in

2008, they went from a  menu driven system to an HTML type interface. 

However, the HTML interface was not standard.  I took it upon myself to

launch a kind of crusade to get the developers to realize that this

change made most aspects of Trend Micro Internet Security inaccessible.

You could see many of the controls, but you could not interact with

check boxes or buttons.

I went round and round both with e-mails and even via 800 tech support. 

After about three weeks, they kept elevating me to supposedly higher

levels of development. Finally, three weeks into this odyssey, they via

telephone, put me in contact with the head developer.  When I went

through my by this time memorized description of the issue, he replied

in broken English: "How Do Ya use a computer if you blind?"  Nothing

came of this and as far as I know, the program such as it is is still

largely inaccessible.

See what I mean.

On 4/9/2020 1:34 PM, Rob Hudson wrote:

> Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:

>> My point, which seems to have eluded you, is that I constantly see complaints about issues, but when I (or you, or anyone else) bring up the fact that you must report them if you want to have any hope of their being resolved there is generally nothing but the proverbial crickets in response.

> This is likely because too many screen reader users have seen the, sorry but I can't duplicate this. Next! Message in response. In addition, there are some larger issues.

> Much of the accessibility stack is integrated into the frameworks needed to build the applications; coders of the actual applications built within the framework itself rarely go out of their way to make their appications accessible. That their apps built with the framework are accessible is a happy coincidence. In other words the fact that Firefox and Thunderbird are largely accessible with screen readers is not necessarily due to someone at Mozilla going, hmm, lets open up NVDA/Jaws/whatever and see how this new feature works--although organizations like Mozilla <em>do</em> in fact have some a11y testers. I don't know how many programmers are actually screen reader users there, however. But anyway the accessibility support is there because the coding frameworks they use to construct the applications have basic accessibility built in to them. witness such browsers as Pale Moon, which have this infrastructure removed and which are almost completely unusable with screen readers.

> Speaking in general about bug reporting. When you report an issue about an application not working with your screen reader, it is likely you're going to get a, wow, I didn't know about screen readers, response. Because the developers did not know their applications could be used at all by us. Then, you'll either get responses that fall into three categories:

> 1. Sorry, but I don't know anything about screen readers, so I don't know what to do to fix it. Thank you for your support.

> 2. Well, let's see if we can make it work. What do I need to do to make this thing work with your ... screen reader?

> 3. Crickets.

> In category one, you're pretty much out of luck. In category two, unless you know about  programming there's not much you can do either. And of course in ccategory three, again, out of luck.

> This is a basic summary of why a lot of screen reader users don't report bugs. Yes, doing so may be helpful in a lot of cases, ut in most of them, it can be a futile exercise.

> 

>

> 

--

They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.

They ask: "How Happy are You?"

I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"

Gene,
This may not be an NVDA problem specifically but I believe that the problem does not occur as frequently, if at all, with JAWS. This is not at all to suggest that NVDA is at all inferior but only that it's somehow intercepting these messages differently.
David Goldfield,
Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist
JAWS Certified, 2019
WWW.DavidGoldfield.org
On 4/9/2020 6:15 PM, Gene wrote:

but this isn’t an NVDA problem.  I suspect there is some way that speech is being forced, perhaps as in Chrome during downloads.  It would be interesting as a test to move away from the program window while something is changing such as when downloading messages to see if NVDA still speaks whatever speech is occuring in the window.  In Chrome when a file is downloading, speech is forced whether you are in the program window or not.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
*From:* Ron Canazzi <mailto:aa2vm@roadrunner.com>
*Sent:* Thursday, April 09, 2020 2:53 PM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] Thunderbird talking way too much
Hi Brian,

Your analysis is probably correct, but I am wondering just why the issue didn't exist in versions of Thunderbird earlier than 60.9.
Remember, before that time, the status line was visible, but screen readers: JAWS and NVDA didn't report all dynamic changes.  It was there and you could read it with the hotkey for status line.

With the reintroduction of the status line, we now have this problem.
I wonder if NVDA programers can do something to change this--perhaps coming up with some sort of display silently and invoking reading with hotkey.


On 4/9/2020 10:38 AM, Brian Vogel wrote:

My guess is that the good folks at Thunderbird had gotten complaints that it was impossible to know, for instance, whether all new e-mail had completed downloading when you fired up T-bird at the start of the day, and decided to expose a lot more information presented on the status bar to the screen reader.

What they probably hadn't counted on is the fact that a screen reader will detect changes and read them as they're detected, and that's really, really irritating if you're reading your e-mail messages and status stuff just barges in while doing so.

If they have sighted folks doing testing for these new functions, it wouldn't surprise me if they just sat there when the status bar was really active watching to see that it was being reported correctly, never moving along like one normally would into reading messages.
And I can get that, as even though I have the status bar displayed, I virtually never look at it at all.  The occasional glance occurs, but I wouldn't really miss it at all if it weren't there by default.

It's well-nigh impossible for most of us who see to have any real idea of exactly how screen reader users typically approach using various pieces of software (and I include myself, though I do have at least some idea at this point).  And there will never be enough in-house actual screen reader users doing accessibility testing.
That's one of the reasons I push so hard to get folks who encounter accessibility issues to file bug/issue/trouble reports with the companies that produce the software.  You all are able to give a far more accurate description of what the software is doing that you don't want with the screen reader as well as what the preferred behavior would be.  Also, given your years of end-user experience, you're often in a far better position to know whether the issue you're having is with the screen reader or due to a change in the software you're using the screen reader to access, and that's often the key to getting to the root of the problem as well as the fix.

--

Brian *-*Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363

*Power is being told you're not loved and not being destroyed by it.*

       ~ Madonna

--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"

 

but this isn’t an NVDA problem.  I suspect there is some way that speech is being forced, perhaps as in Chrome during downloads.  It would be interesting as a test to move away from the program window while something is changing such as when downloading messages to see if NVDA still speaks whatever speech is occuring in the window.  In Chrome when a file is downloading, speech is forced whether you are in the program window or not. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Ron Canazzi

Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2020 2:53 PM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] Thunderbird talking way too much

 

Hi Brian,

Your analysis is probably correct, but I am wondering just why the issue didn't exist in versions of Thunderbird earlier than 60.9.  Remember, before that time, the status line was visible, but screen readers: JAWS and NVDA didn't report all dynamic changes.  It was there and you could read it with the hotkey for status line. 

With the reintroduction of the status line, we now have this problem.  I wonder if NVDA programers can do something to change this--perhaps coming up with some sort of display silently and invoking reading with hotkey.

On 4/9/2020 10:38 AM, Brian Vogel wrote:

My guess is that the good folks at Thunderbird had gotten complaints that it was impossible to know, for instance, whether all new e-mail had completed downloading when you fired up T-bird at the start of the day, and decided to expose a lot more information presented on the status bar to the screen reader.

What they probably hadn't counted on is the fact that a screen reader will detect changes and read them as they're detected, and that's really, really irritating if you're reading your e-mail messages and status stuff just barges in while doing so.

If they have sighted folks doing testing for these new functions, it wouldn't surprise me if they just sat there when the status bar was really active watching to see that it was being reported correctly, never moving along like one normally would into reading messages.  And I can get that, as even though I have the status bar displayed, I virtually never look at it at all.  The occasional glance occurs, but I wouldn't really miss it at all if it weren't there by default.

It's well-nigh impossible for most of us who see to have any real idea of exactly how screen reader users typically approach using various pieces of software (and I include myself, though I do have at least some idea at this point).  And there will never be enough in-house actual screen reader users doing accessibility testing.  That's one of the reasons I push so hard to get folks who encounter accessibility issues to file bug/issue/trouble reports with the companies that produce the software.  You all are able to give a far more accurate description of what the software is doing that you don't want with the screen reader as well as what the preferred behavior would be.  Also, given your years of end-user experience, you're often in a far better position to know whether the issue you're having is with the screen reader or due to a change in the software you're using the screen reader to access, and that's often the key to getting to the root of the problem as well as the fix.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363  

Power is being told you're not loved and not being destroyed by it.

       ~ Madonna

 

 

-- 
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"

well I have reported this

Bug 1628891 - Thunderbird talks to much.

You can add to this with your replies and comments, go nuts and put your bit.

Thunderbird like firefox and a few other things do have their base in the chromium engine.

That actually does bring up something, I wander if there are any other chrome or chromium like email clients with similar interface to thunderbird.



On 10/04/2020 9:56 am, David Goldfield wrote:

Also, hiding the status bar only solves the problem of the extra information being spoken when you delete a message. There are other occasions where unwanted speech will still occur.

If this issue has not been reported in Bugzilla I am more than willing to do so but I confess I won't have time to do this until Saturday at the earliest. The real solution is to do this. Since this seems to primarily affect NVDA I'm wondering if NV Access might be able to release an interim update which works around this issue. Ideally, the developer of the software should be the ones to correct issues like this and, once the issue has been properly reported, I predict that this will happen. However, sometimes screen reader developers may choose to see if a workaround can be added to an update to their product and I'm wondering how feasible this might be for NV Access. Filing this issue in their github certainly wouldn't hurt. Worst case scenario: they may not be able to correct it on NVDA's side of the house or it may take more resources than they can invest but it can't hurt to try.


David Goldfield,
Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist
JAWS Certified, 2019

https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.davidgoldfield.org%2F&;amp;data=02%7C01%7C%7C34242fd65ac64012b56308d7dcd477a5%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637220677398273763&amp;sdata=m54QLJlduZGirKurWRbHugE%2FBSO9RzEETSyY1RQuUW4%3D&amp;reserved=0

On 4/9/2020 3:45 PM, Ron Canazzi wrote:

Hi Group,

OK, you can hide the status bar, but then you won't have it readable until you show it again.


On 4/9/2020 12:46 PM, matthew dyer wrote:

Marry,



I just ran into this same problem.  Try this.  Go the view menu and right error to the toolbars and enter on status bar to hide it and this should saulve your problem.  Thanks.


Matthew



On 4/8/2020 2:56 PM, Mary Otten wrote:

Hi all,


I just updated Thunderbird, and all of a sudden, it is talking way too much. For instance, each time I delete a message, I hear about how that message was deleted and added to trash, or some such. There are other announcements as well, rendering the experience entirely too verbose and inefficient for getting through email. I'm using the latest nvda, and as far as I know, there haven't been changes to the mozilla apps enhancements add on which I have been using without incident until now. My t-bird version is 68.7.0; it just updated to that.


Mary

Also, hiding the status bar only solves the problem of the extra information being spoken when you delete a message. There are other occasions where unwanted speech will still occur.

If this issue has not been reported in Bugzilla I am more than willing to do so but I confess I won't have time to do this until Saturday at the earliest. The real solution is to do this. Since this seems to primarily affect NVDA I'm wondering if NV Access might be able to release an interim update which works around this issue. Ideally, the developer of the software should be the ones to correct issues like this and, once the issue has been properly reported, I predict that this will happen. However, sometimes screen reader developers may choose to see if a workaround can be added to an update to their product and I'm wondering how feasible this might be for NV Access. Filing this issue in their github certainly wouldn't hurt. Worst case scenario: they may not be able to correct it on NVDA's side of the house or it may take more resources than they can invest but it can't hurt to try.


David Goldfield,
Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist
JAWS Certified, 2019

WWW.DavidGoldfield.org

On 4/9/2020 3:45 PM, Ron Canazzi wrote:

Hi Group,

OK, you can hide the status bar, but then you won't have it readable until you show it again.


On 4/9/2020 12:46 PM, matthew dyer wrote:

Marry,



I just ran into this same problem.  Try this.  Go the view menu and right error to the toolbars and enter on status bar to hide it and this should saulve your problem.  Thanks.


Matthew



On 4/8/2020 2:56 PM, Mary Otten wrote:

Hi all,


I just updated Thunderbird, and all of a sudden, it is talking way too much. For instance, each time I delete a message, I hear about how that message was deleted and added to trash, or some such. There are other announcements as well, rendering the experience entirely too verbose and inefficient for getting through email. I'm using the latest nvda, and as far as I know, there haven't been changes to the mozilla apps enhancements add on which I have been using without incident until now. My t-bird version is 68.7.0; it just updated to that.


Mary

Hi Group,

OK, you can hide the status bar, but then you won't have it readable until you show it again.


On 4/9/2020 12:46 PM, matthew dyer wrote:

Marry,



I just ran into this same problem.  Try this.  Go the view menu and right error to the toolbars and enter on status bar to hide it and this should saulve your problem.  Thanks.


Matthew



On 4/8/2020 2:56 PM, Mary Otten wrote:

Hi all,


I just updated Thunderbird, and all of a sudden, it is talking way too much. For instance, each time I delete a message, I hear about how that message was deleted and added to trash, or some such. There are other announcements as well, rendering the experience entirely too verbose and inefficient for getting through email. I'm using the latest nvda, and as far as I know, there haven't been changes to the mozilla apps enhancements add on which I have been using without incident until now. My t-bird version is 68.7.0; it just updated to that.


Mary

I’m glad you have seen that amount of progress.  I know there has been saignificant improvement but still, when I see things like companies that take an interest in accessibility not following through, it really gets old and it is the case that, along with the improvements far too often, it appears to me the simple principle of ongoing proper follow through by making sure there are blind people who evaluate new developing versions is not done.  I keep seeing, over time, different programs that were accessible becoming less so over time or developing new problems.  II’m not talking about programs where the whole architecture changes, I’m talking about examples such as we see in Thunderbird and such as with programs that release inaccessible versions more than once and fix them perhaps months or more later.

 

It is important in such cases, for users of such programs to let the developers know of the need to actively recruit knowledgeable blind people to try new developmental releases and beta versions and report problems.

 

My previous message was written because I see this common sense practice not being followed and I’m tired of blind people being not consistently dealt with in ways such as this. While its true that a lot of the responsibility needs to be on us because we are a small group, chronically misunderstood and about which most people know little, at the same time, it shouldn’t be almost all our responsibility.  Things are changing and what was considered acceptable forty years ago isn’t now.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Gene

Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2020 1:49 PM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] Thunderbird talking way too much

 

Which completely misses the point.  Why should blind people be different from other minorities.  Affirmative action has been around since the seventies.  It is expected that when dealing with minorities, institutions will affirmatively take certain actions.  Blind people are a small group, but it is right and proper that there should be an expectation that entities will affirmatively do something rather than we always being in a position to constantly educate and educate and educate. 

 

I’m not saying that blind people shouldn’t educate.  I’m saying that its beyond time for the attitude to change from its all on us to its partly on you.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Brian Vogel

Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2020 1:07 PM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] Thunderbird talking way too much

 

On Thu, Apr 9, 2020 at 01:52 PM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:

Take mee6. The developers basically ,looked at NvDa said, We can't help you" and just ignored every other bug report I submitted. In fact they only give me sigted instructions like 'drag this to that." Yeah, I've seen all of this before.

And, again, so?   This gives you instant feedback that the developers of this product care not one whit about accessibility.  That, in and of itself, tells you to abandon hope and seek an alternative.

In this world, all of us have been subjected to something like this, though not necessarily specific to accessibility.  You shake the dust from your sandals and move along in the attempt to find a tool that works.

Also, you really do have to understand that many sighted people don't understand that drag and drop is not something that blind people do.  Very often you can end up educating support reps about keyboard shortcuts and how to find them.  There is no logical reason to believe that most of the sighted world does or ever will know nearly what you know about keyboard shortcuts and many other aspects of how blind people use computers.  So it is up to you to make the attempt to educate.

As a seeing person who has been intimately involved with accessibility for some time now, I am finding that the lack of recognition on the accessibility users side about why things are the way they are, much of it due to pure ignorance on the part of the majority of sighted people, mystifying.  Why on earth would you expect your average Joe or Jane sitting at a help desk, who might never have even spoken to an accessibility software user before, to just know this stuff?  That's exactly how and why dedicated help lines have come into existence at major players like Microsoft and Google, to name two.  It's completely unreasonable to believe that most of the sighted world should know one darned thing about screen readers, or that they even exist.  The blind community is very, very small as a proportion of all computer users.  Resources get allocated based on that, and I can only imagine what fraction of a percent of all calls to help desks come from screen reader users.  That matters, and needs to be taken into consideration.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363  

Power is being told you're not loved and not being destroyed by it.

       ~ Madonna