Date   

locked Re: Thunderbird talking way too much

David Goldfield
 

I'm a bit late to this thread. I just updated to 68.7.0 of Thunderbird and I definitely have observed the issues being discussed. As someone indicated in an earlier message disabling the status bar from the Toolbars submenu in the View menu does seem to eliminate the extra verbeage you hear when messages are being deleted. Is something new visually happening with the toolbar during the deletion process.

David Goldfield,
Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist
JAWS Certified, 2019

WWW.DavidGoldfield.org

On 4/9/2020 4:14 PM, Ron Canazzi wrote:
Hi Rob,

Boy do you make some good points here.  I used to be a private beta tester for JAWS way back.  Back in 2004, the anti virus program Trend Micro Internet Security was almost totally accessible. Beginning in 2008, they went from a  menu driven system to an HTML type interface.  However, the HTML interface was not standard.  I took it upon myself to launch a kind of crusade to get the developers to realize that this change made most aspects of Trend Micro Internet Security inaccessible. You could see many of the controls, but you could not interact with check boxes or buttons.

I went round and round both with e-mails and even via 800 tech support.  After about three weeks, they kept elevating me to supposedly higher levels of development. Finally, three weeks into this odyssey, they via telephone, put me in contact with the head developer.  When I went through my by this time memorized description of the issue, he replied in broken English: "How Do Ya use a computer if you blind?"  Nothing came of this and as far as I know, the program such as it is is still largely inaccessible.

See what I mean.


On 4/9/2020 1:34 PM, Rob Hudson wrote:
Brian Vogel <britechguy@gmail.com> wrote:
My point, which seems to have eluded you, is that I constantly see complaints about issues, but when I (or you, or anyone else) bring up the fact that you must report them if you want to have any hope of their being resolved there is generally nothing but the proverbial crickets in response.
This is likely because too many screen reader users have seen the, sorry but I can't duplicate this. Next! Message in response. In addition, there are some larger issues.
Much of the accessibility stack is integrated into the frameworks needed to build the applications; coders of the actual applications built within the framework itself rarely go out of their way to make their appications accessible. That their apps built with the framework are accessible is a happy coincidence. In other words the fact that Firefox and Thunderbird are largely accessible with screen readers is not necessarily due to someone at Mozilla going, hmm, lets open up NVDA/Jaws/whatever and see how this new feature works--although organizations like Mozilla <em>do</em> in fact have some a11y testers. I don't know how many programmers are actually screen reader users there, however. But anyway the accessibility support is there because the coding frameworks they use to construct the applications have basic accessibility built in to them. witness such browsers as Pale Moon, which have this infrastructure removed and which are almost completely unusable with screen readers.
Speaking in general about bug reporting. When you report an issue about an application not working with your screen reader, it is likely you're going to get a, wow, I didn't know about screen readers, response. Because the developers did not know their applications could be used at all by us. Then, you'll either get responses that fall into three categories:
1. Sorry, but I don't know anything about screen readers, so I don't know what to do to fix it. Thank you for your support.
2. Well, let's see if we can make it work. What do I need to do to make this thing work with your ... screen reader?
3. Crickets.
In category one, you're pretty much out of luck. In category two, unless you know about  programming there's not much you can do either. And of course in ccategory three, again, out of luck.
This is a basic summary of why a lot of screen reader users don't report bugs. Yes, doing so may be helpful in a lot of cases, ut in most of them, it can be a futile exercise.



locked Re: Thunderbird talking way too much

 

I like the progress beeps nvda has when messages come in.

I think its really cool that the status bar can be read, and messages like remote content and junk are detected, but I really don't need to see each change or everything at once.

I don't need to see the internal workings of the machine.



On 10/04/2020 9:24 am, Sarah k Alawami wrote:

I'd rather not see the status bar, at least as far as emails are concerned. I don't use it anyway, so fo rme that unchecking is a good work around.

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website.

to subscribe to the feed click here and you can also follow us on twitter

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on [twitch.](http://twitch.tv/ke7zum] Feel free to give the channel a follow and see what is up there.

For stream archives, products you can buy and more visit my main lbry page and my tffp lbry page YOu will also be able to buy some of my products and eBooks there.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 9 Apr 2020, at 12:45, Ron Canazzi wrote:

Hi Group,

OK, you can hide the status bar, but then you won't have it readable until you show it again.

On 4/9/2020 12:46 PM, matthew dyer wrote:

Marry,

I just ran into this same problem.  Try this.  Go the view menu and right error to the toolbars and enter on status bar to hide it and this should saulve your problem.  Thanks.

Matthew

On 4/8/2020 2:56 PM, Mary Otten wrote:

Hi all,

I just updated Thunderbird, and all of a sudden, it is talking way too much. For instance, each time I delete a message, I hear about how that message was deleted and added to trash, or some such. There are other announcements as well, rendering the experience entirely too verbose and inefficient for getting through email. I'm using the latest nvda, and as far as I know, there haven't been changes to the mozilla apps enhancements add on which I have been using without incident until now. My t-bird version is 68.7.0; it just updated to that.

Mary

--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


locked Re: Thunderbird talking way too much

 

On Thu, Apr 9, 2020 at 05:26 PM, Shaun Everiss wrote:

If they can't be bothered with this then we have an issue.

 

No Shaun, you do.  It's not all about you, and you seem to think it is and should be.

You work with the mechanisms available, and those change.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363  

Power is being told you're not loved and not being destroyed by it.

       ~ Madonna

 

 


locked Re: Thunderbird talking way too much

 

Its a bit hard jean if they don't have any email addresses.

I refuse to use their forums or twitter unless I realllly have no choice.

Email is the easiest way to contact someone.

If they can't be bothered with this then we have an issue.



On 10/04/2020 6:42 am, Gene wrote:
The developers of Firefox and Thunderbird have intentionally made their programs accessible. Part of doing so on an ongoing basis is to take the affirmative action of recruiting blind people to test new builds of these programs.  Not doing so is not implementing what is expedcted in terms of making programs properly accessible on an ongoing basis. 
 
If they don’t do this, and if other developers don’t do this who have expressed an interest or willingness to make their programs accessible, such as the developers of Malware Bytes, blind people should contact them and try to get them to do this. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
----- Original Message -----
From: Rob Hudson
Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2020 12:34 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Thunderbird talking way too much
 
Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:
> My point, which seems to have eluded you, is that I constantly see complaints about issues, but when I (or you, or anyone else) bring up the fact that you must report them if you want to have any hope of their being resolved there is generally nothing but the proverbial crickets in response.

This is likely because too many screen reader users have seen the, sorry but I can't duplicate this. Next! Message in response. In addition, there are some larger issues.
Much of the accessibility stack is integrated into the frameworks needed to build the applications; coders of the actual applications built within the framework itself rarely go out of their way to make their appications accessible. That their apps built with the framework are accessible is a happy coincidence. In other words the fact that Firefox and Thunderbird are largely accessible with screen readers is not necessarily due to someone at Mozilla going, hmm, lets open up NVDA/Jaws/whatever and see how this new feature works--although organizations like Mozilla <em>do</em> in fact have some a11y testers. I don't know how many programmers are actually screen reader users there, however. But anyway the accessibility support is there because the coding frameworks they use to construct the applications have basic accessibility built in to them. witness such browsers as Pale Moon, which have this infrastructure removed and which are almost completely unusable with screen readers.
Speaking in general about bug reporting. When you report an issue about an application not working with your screen reader, it is likely you're going to get a, wow, I didn't know about screen readers, response. Because the developers did not know their applications could be used at all by us. Then, you'll either get responses that fall into three categories:
1. Sorry, but I don't know anything about screen readers, so I don't know what to do to fix it. Thank you for your support.
2. Well, let's see if we can make it work. What do I need to do to make this thing work with your ... screen reader?
3. Crickets.
In category one, you're pretty much out of luck. In category two, unless you know about  programming there's not much you can do either. And of course in ccategory three, again, out of luck.
This is a basic summary of why a lot of screen reader users don't report bugs. Yes, doing so may be helpful in a lot of cases, ut in most of them, it can be a futile exercise.



locked Re: Thunderbird talking way too much

Sarah k Alawami
 

I'd rather not see the status bar, at least as far as emails are concerned. I don't use it anyway, so fo rme that unchecking is a good work around.

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website.

to subscribe to the feed click here and you can also follow us on twitter

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on [twitch.](http://twitch.tv/ke7zum] Feel free to give the channel a follow and see what is up there.

For stream archives, products you can buy and more visit my main lbry page and my tffp lbry page YOu will also be able to buy some of my products and eBooks there.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 9 Apr 2020, at 12:45, Ron Canazzi wrote:

Hi Group,

OK, you can hide the status bar, but then you won't have it readable until you show it again.

On 4/9/2020 12:46 PM, matthew dyer wrote:

Marry,

I just ran into this same problem.  Try this.  Go the view menu and right error to the toolbars and enter on status bar to hide it and this should saulve your problem.  Thanks.

Matthew

On 4/8/2020 2:56 PM, Mary Otten wrote:

Hi all,

I just updated Thunderbird, and all of a sudden, it is talking way too much. For instance, each time I delete a message, I hear about how that message was deleted and added to trash, or some such. There are other announcements as well, rendering the experience entirely too verbose and inefficient for getting through email. I'm using the latest nvda, and as far as I know, there haven't been changes to the mozilla apps enhancements add on which I have been using without incident until now. My t-bird version is 68.7.0; it just updated to that.

Mary

--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


locked Re: Thunderbird talking way too much

 

Jean a big issue is stability.

I have 1 machine here.

So I could test something, then it screws up everything.

Then I need to reinstall what that is, or completely reformat and reinstall the os.

Technically I do have another machine but no room to test it.

I could vm things I guess but that could be hit and miss at times to.

Your average user wants to get their stuff and go.

Back in the day I did try to do this.

It can be done, but its rough.

A bug can appear which looks worse than it is but isn't noticable until you think smaller.

Winamp plugins can get out of date, in this example, I was testing dolphin maps.

My system was all loopy because of 1 little file in 1 folder.

That file was causing the app to malfunction  badly.

But it looked like an os issue.

Running the fixes didn't help, running several reformat didn't help.

It was only after my 10th reformat of the day that I decided to look at the maps I had installed on test, I found the map causing the issue and reported it.

However after that experience, unless I get a bigger desk and another machine to test unstable stuff on that if it screws up and I need to reformat regularly and it doesn't matter, I won't be doing that.

I don't have room right now for either and  I am to chicken to try again.

I have enough issue keeping all things updated on my stable system, doing my testing and other things and living my life without a system going down because of something trivial.

That was back in my teens and 20s.

I will be 38 this year, my time seeing what this button does is over.

If it really screws up like it did last year, then it screwed up but I don't care or enjoy fixing it anymore if it does.

I would prefur not to cause things to screw up by chance.



On 10/04/2020 6:23 am, Gene wrote:
You would expect interested blind users to receive alpha and beta releases and send comments.  And if there aren’t, Mozilla should recruit testers.  It is just plain bad procedure not to have releases evaluated by such users as a matter of policy and that is why so many programs such as Malware Bytes, are accessible in one version, have serious accessibility problems in the next, and then are finally fixed in a later release.
 
Gene
----- Original Message [-----
Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2020 11:57 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Thunderbird talking way too much
 
On Thu, Apr 9, 2020 at 12:42 PM, Gene wrote:
My question is why this wasn’t caught by reports from blind people before the release version.
Gene, do you honestly think that there were many, if any, based on what has been seen here and on other screen reader and associated technology groups?

My point, which seems to have eluded you, is that I constantly see complaints about issues, but when I (or you, or anyone else) bring up the fact that you must report them if you want to have any hope of their being resolved there is generally nothing but the proverbial crickets in response.

I have no reason to believe, based on what I have observed on multiple blind technology related groups, that most (and I do mean most, the vast majority most) screen reader users have ever filed a trouble ticket/bug report.  And until or unless they do they should not expect prompt attention to issues that may not even have been recognized.

Each user demographic is and should be responsible for advocating for themselves by reporting the issues they encounter to those who can fix them.  No one else will, or should.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363  

Power is being told you're not loved and not being destroyed by it.

       ~ Madonna

 

 


Re: google chrome version 81

Dejan Ristic
 

Hi,


Glad to have heard it.


Dejan

On 09/04/2020 22:53, Brian Vogel wrote:
Mohammad, 

            Just as an FYI, your report was deemed a duplicate and merged into 

Issue 1069448: neither NVDA nore Jaws screen readers are able to read PDF documents in latest Chrome version 81 stable

 
            It was deemed a regression bug, and apparently a fix has already been made as of earlier this afternoon.  The final line of the issue above notes:

Good news, this is a duplicate of bug 1047856 which has just been verified as having been fixed. I'll merge this bug now. If you have any questions or concerns after Chrome updates with the fix, please let us know!
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363  

Power is being told you're not loved and not being destroyed by it.

       ~ Madonna

 

 


Virus-free. www.avast.com


locked Re: Thunderbird talking way too much

 

On Thu, Apr 9, 2020 at 05:14 PM, Shaun Everiss wrote:
If thunderbird has a github I may actually try to post a bug at that.
No, they don't.  As I already reported, all Mozilla products do their project management via Bugzilla, not GitHub (which is what NVAccess does use for NVDA, and many NVDA add-ons have their own projects on GitHub).
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363  

Power is being told you're not loved and not being destroyed by it.

       ~ Madonna

 

 


locked Re: Thunderbird talking way too much

 

Yeah ccleaner got a bit like that.

Now flash fxp hmmm well that was a bit better.

Of course if you join a beta test team like I have done with dolphin and wordpress I can skip all official contact channels and use an internal method to report bugs directly and they do get fixed but thats a bit different.



On 10/04/2020 5:52 am, Sarah k Alawami wrote:

Yep. Take mee6. The developers basically ,looked at NvDa said, We can't help you" and just ignored every other bug report I submitted. In fact they only give me sigted instructions like 'drag this to that." Yeah, I've seen all of this before.

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website.

to subscribe to the feed click here and you can also follow us on twitter

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on [twitch.](http://twitch.tv/ke7zum] Feel free to give the channel a follow and see what is up there.

For stream archives, products you can buy and more visit my main lbry page and my tffp lbry page YOu will also be able to buy some of my products and eBooks there.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 9 Apr 2020, at 10:34, Rob Hudson wrote:

Brian Vogel britechguy@... wrote:

My point, which seems to have eluded you, is that I constantly see complaints about issues, but when I (or you, or anyone else) bring up the fact that you must report them if you want to have any hope of their being resolved there is generally nothing but the proverbial crickets in response.

This is likely because too many screen reader users have seen the, sorry but I can't duplicate this. Next! Message in response. In addition, there are some larger issues.
Much of the accessibility stack is integrated into the frameworks needed to build the applications; coders of the actual applications built within the framework itself rarely go out of their way to make their appications accessible. That their apps built with the framework are accessible is a happy coincidence. In other words the fact that Firefox and Thunderbird are largely accessible with screen readers is not necessarily due to someone at Mozilla going, hmm, lets open up NVDA/Jaws/whatever and see how this new feature works--although organizations like Mozilla <em>do</em> in fact have some a11y testers. I don't know how many programmers are actually screen reader users there, however. But anyway the accessibility support is there because the coding frameworks they use to construct the applications have basic accessibility built in to them. witness such browsers as Pale Moon, which have this infrastructure removed and which are almost completely unusable with screen readers.
Speaking in general about bug reporting. When you report an issue about an application not working with your screen reader, it is likely you're going to get a, wow, I didn't know about screen readers, response. Because the developers did not know their applications could be used at all by us. Then, you'll either get responses that fall into three categories:
1. Sorry, but I don't know anything about screen readers, so I don't know what to do to fix it. Thank you for your support.
2. Well, let's see if we can make it work. What do I need to do to make this thing work with your ... screen reader?
3. Crickets.
In category one, you're pretty much out of luck. In category two, unless you know about programming there's not much you can do either. And of course in ccategory three, again, out of luck.
This is a basic summary of why a lot of screen reader users don't report bugs. Yes, doing so may be helpful in a lot of cases, ut in most of them, it can be a futile exercise.


locked Re: Thunderbird talking way too much

 

On Thu, Apr 9, 2020 at 05:03 PM, Shaun Everiss wrote:
Well jean its a bit hard to do this when they have no direct support email address.
There are lots of places that don't do e-mail support anymore.  And I actually generally find what I need either by searching their community forums or just doing a web search on the issue I'm having if we're talking about a release version.

If you want to report bugs, either for Mozilla Firefox or Thunderbird, then get an account at https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/home

Here's a search on that page, without being logged in, on just Thunderbird:  https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/buglist.cgi?quicksearch=Thunderbird
Were I actually trying to determine whether a specific issue already exists I would add keywords other than just Thunderbird.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363  

Power is being told you're not loved and not being destroyed by it.

       ~ Madonna

 

 


locked Re: Thunderbird talking way too much

 

Its also hard when direct support or forms are not available.

In this case, there is a forum and a twitter and that is that.

Turning things off has fixed my issue, junk filter = no junk, remote content = no alerts.

That I can live with.

Status bars mean no progress from nvda, and well its starting to effect me now.

I could join another email list and maybe I will try to figure out the forum, but you need a firefox sync account to access the thing and while I do there is no actual way to make a google login  work or anything like that so yeah its just harder.

If thunderbird has a github I may actually try to post a bug at that.

I've been able to put up with issues, but now its got to the stage where I need to do something about it.

Maybe I should become a beta tester of thunderbird and subscribe to the list.

Trouble is I don't want to have different profiles for this and that.

On 10/04/2020 5:34 am, Rob Hudson wrote:
Brian Vogel <britechguy@gmail.com> wrote:
My point, which seems to have eluded you, is that I constantly see complaints about issues, but when I (or you, or anyone else) bring up the fact that you must report them if you want to have any hope of their being resolved there is generally nothing but the proverbial crickets in response.
This is likely because too many screen reader users have seen the, sorry but I can't duplicate this. Next! Message in response. In addition, there are some larger issues.
Much of the accessibility stack is integrated into the frameworks needed to build the applications; coders of the actual applications built within the framework itself rarely go out of their way to make their appications accessible. That their apps built with the framework are accessible is a happy coincidence. In other words the fact that Firefox and Thunderbird are largely accessible with screen readers is not necessarily due to someone at Mozilla going, hmm, lets open up NVDA/Jaws/whatever and see how this new feature works--although organizations like Mozilla <em>do</em> in fact have some a11y testers. I don't know how many programmers are actually screen reader users there, however. But anyway the accessibility support is there because the coding frameworks they use to construct the applications have basic accessibility built in to them. witness such browsers as Pale Moon, which have this infrastructure removed and which are almost completely unusable with screen readers.
Speaking in general about bug reporting. When you report an issue about an application not working with your screen reader, it is likely you're going to get a, wow, I didn't know about screen readers, response. Because the developers did not know their applications could be used at all by us. Then, you'll either get responses that fall into three categories:
1. Sorry, but I don't know anything about screen readers, so I don't know what to do to fix it. Thank you for your support.
2. Well, let's see if we can make it work. What do I need to do to make this thing work with your ... screen reader?
3. Crickets.
In category one, you're pretty much out of luck. In category two, unless you know about programming there's not much you can do either. And of course in ccategory three, again, out of luck.
This is a basic summary of why a lot of screen reader users don't report bugs. Yes, doing so may be helpful in a lot of cases, ut in most of them, it can be a futile exercise.


.


locked Re: Thunderbird talking way too much

 

Well jean its a bit hard to do this when they have no direct support email address.

They have their forum which I have issues navigating, they have twitter which while I will use it if I must I really don't like.

There is no support email address or anything.

I guess I could get on one of the descussion lists, but I get allready so much traffic as it is.

If there was a way to get in contact or someone could help me get in touch with someone then yeah maybe we can get this sorted.

Right now, I am unsure what to do.

With all the issues with firefox 75 and the like, and if the betas of thunderbird go that way to then I may have to look for and learn another client.

I don't really want to use another client.

The thunderbird interface works and its accessable and with some configurations its reasonably fast here.

If push comes to shove, I will downgrade to 52x which was the last mozilla version in the old format, however I am unsure if security certs will continue to run on it.

The new quantom interface works well, hmmm maybe, I do know a few testers or at least 1 beta tester on here I think the user is roland, maybe I can get him to report this, who knows.



On 10/04/2020 4:01 am, Gene wrote:
This problem raises serious questions about how accessibility is implemented as Thunderbird is developed. 
 
This is just the kind of thing you would expect to see implemented if a sighted person or persons, who know nothing about proper implementation of accessibility, add or design accessibility functions.  Just because something talks doesn't mean it is practical or properly usable. 
 
How did such a function get past beta testing or even alpha testing?  Unless Thunderbird changes how it evaluates accessibility changes or new implementations, there will be a constant threat of future versions presenting new and completely unnecessary accessibility problems.  I would suggest those who use the program contact the developers about this problem.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2020 9:38 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Thunderbird talking way too much
 
My guess is that the good folks at Thunderbird had gotten complaints that it was impossible to know, for instance, whether all new e-mail had completed downloading when you fired up T-bird at the start of the day, and decided to expose a lot more information presented on the status bar to the screen reader.

What they probably hadn't counted on is the fact that a screen reader will detect changes and read them as they're detected, and that's really, really irritating if you're reading your e-mail messages and status stuff just barges in while doing so.

If they have sighted folks doing testing for these new functions, it wouldn't surprise me if they just sat there when the status bar was really active watching to see that it was being reported correctly, never moving along like one normally would into reading messages.  And I can get that, as even though I have the status bar displayed, I virtually never look at it at all.  The occasional glance occurs, but I wouldn't really miss it at all if it weren't there by default.

It's well-nigh impossible for most of us who see to have any real idea of exactly how screen reader users typically approach using various pieces of software (and I include myself, though I do have at least some idea at this point).  And there will never be enough in-house actual screen reader users doing accessibility testing.  That's one of the reasons I push so hard to get folks who encounter accessibility issues to file bug/issue/trouble reports with the companies that produce the software.  You all are able to give a far more accurate description of what the software is doing that you don't want with the screen reader as well as what the preferred behavior would be.  Also, given your years of end-user experience, you're often in a far better position to know whether the issue you're having is with the screen reader or due to a change in the software you're using the screen reader to access, and that's often the key to getting to the root of the problem as well as the fix.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363  

Power is being told you're not loved and not being destroyed by it.

       ~ Madonna

 

 


locked Re: Thunderbird talking way too much

 

Well I wish there was a direct way to contact them.

I was able to login to their forum but I couldn't make heads of the pages on it or maybe I wasn't looking properly.

I know there is twitter and I have twblue but after what twitter did to their streaming support well we are not exactly friendly, I'll use it if I must, but I'd still prefer a direct email contact.

Right now the status bar is to verbose.

And having almost every message stating it has remote content in it is why I have that turned off right now.

All I want to know is if the html with headings and the like will load.

I don't care if there is malware in it, all I care is if removing it or stripping it will efect the message I am viewing and any links especially if they are ones I was expecting like in a news letter.

I do appreciate the extra feadback but I am getting so much at once.

Now if all that feadback could be converted into a different sound and I could customise those sounds to my liking and or have a soundtheme that came with thunderbird, then I think it could be manageable.

Luckily I have junk filters off but I'd really like either a sound for potential junk or a way for thunderbird to improve their junk filters.

What is the use of saying there is potentially bad content in a message when every message has that potential especially since most are html.

What is the point of every message being potentially flagged is spam when most of them are not.

I am not angry but right now, I just turn it off and I get round it that way.

However there must be an easier way to handle all this information.

Right now I am getting so much feedback it may as well be noise.

If there is a remote content stripper or something that would be fine.

I don't use or need images, I want the page and headings, and links to display properly.

I'd also like the ability to have all links exposed so if I was given a click here I could see what it was.

Is there something allready or do I need to report all this.

Also how to do it, have have users sent requests and such to thunderbird before.

I'd dearly much would like to do this.



On 10/04/2020 2:38 am, Brian Vogel wrote:
My guess is that the good folks at Thunderbird had gotten complaints that it was impossible to know, for instance, whether all new e-mail had completed downloading when you fired up T-bird at the start of the day, and decided to expose a lot more information presented on the status bar to the screen reader.

What they probably hadn't counted on is the fact that a screen reader will detect changes and read them as they're detected, and that's really, really irritating if you're reading your e-mail messages and status stuff just barges in while doing so.

If they have sighted folks doing testing for these new functions, it wouldn't surprise me if they just sat there when the status bar was really active watching to see that it was being reported correctly, never moving along like one normally would into reading messages.  And I can get that, as even though I have the status bar displayed, I virtually never look at it at all.  The occasional glance occurs, but I wouldn't really miss it at all if it weren't there by default.

It's well-nigh impossible for most of us who see to have any real idea of exactly how screen reader users typically approach using various pieces of software (and I include myself, though I do have at least some idea at this point).  And there will never be enough in-house actual screen reader users doing accessibility testing.  That's one of the reasons I push so hard to get folks who encounter accessibility issues to file bug/issue/trouble reports with the companies that produce the software.  You all are able to give a far more accurate description of what the software is doing that you don't want with the screen reader as well as what the preferred behavior would be.  Also, given your years of end-user experience, you're often in a far better position to know whether the issue you're having is with the screen reader or due to a change in the software you're using the screen reader to access, and that's often the key to getting to the root of the problem as well as the fix.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363  

Power is being told you're not loved and not being destroyed by it.

       ~ Madonna

 

 


locked Re: Thunderbird talking way too much

 

On Thu, Apr 9, 2020 at 04:27 PM, Howard Traxler wrote:
With this new update
Can you please give the version number?   ALT+H,A
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363  

Power is being told you're not loved and not being destroyed by it.

       ~ Madonna

 

 


Re: google chrome version 81

 

Mohammad, 

            Just as an FYI, your report was deemed a duplicate and merged into 

Issue 1069448: neither NVDA nore Jaws screen readers are able to read PDF documents in latest Chrome version 81 stable

 
            It was deemed a regression bug, and apparently a fix has already been made as of earlier this afternoon.  The final line of the issue above notes:

Good news, this is a duplicate of bug 1047856 which has just been verified as having been fixed. I'll merge this bug now. If you have any questions or concerns after Chrome updates with the fix, please let us know!
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363  

Power is being told you're not loved and not being destroyed by it.

       ~ Madonna

 

 


locked Re: Thunderbird talking way too much

 

Well it does and it doesn't I now have no email progress so when its downloading I don't hear it doing so.

On 10/04/2020 2:17 am, Roger Stewart wrote:
Yes, turning off the status bar fixed it completely!
Thanks much!
Roger









On 4/8/2020 5:34 PM, David Csercsics wrote:
I got the 68.7 update today and noticed it was chatty. It was reading the status bar, so I disabled that, and it's less verbose. You can disable the status bar from view -> toolbars.





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.


locked Re: Thunderbird talking way too much

Howard Traxler
 

With this new update, when I have a message open and hit delete, it explaines every step of what has to be done to connect to the server, put the message into the trash folder, check for new messages, then download the next message.  It doesn't seem to be quite so chatty when I delete from the list of messages.

In the old days, (in; like; soft vert and vocal eyes, we could make a piece of the screen silent.  Is that function still available in JAWS or NVDA?

On 4/9/2020 2:46 PM, cecropia64 wrote:
i think it was Mike who suggested turning off the status bar.  i did this and it worked fine.  it works for me like it used to before i upgraded.

On 4/9/2020 3:44 PM, Ron Canazzi wrote:
Hi Group,

Well, I also am seeing the latest version of Thunderbird talking way too much.  For about two years, the updates past version 60.8 did not read the status line properly.  Now with 68.7, the status line has returned, but it seems that every action that you perform that causes a change to the status line is now vocalized.  This is entirely too much verbiage. A clumsy work around is to perform an action and then quickly invoke the read line function with insert + up arrow and then go on to perform a new action.  This works best for doing a filtered delete.  By this I mean that I have messages filtered into folders and grouped by conversation.  When doing a browse and delete in each folder, after I select with standard shift + up/down arrows and want to move on for a mass deletion, rather than waiting for the status line to read out, I do the selection, then press the read line keystroke and then continue the shift + down arrow keystroke to continue to highlight the messages I want to delete. It's clumsy but once you get used to it, it does work.

Since this install allows me to stay current with security issues in Thunderbird, I think I'll keep the 68.7 version.  I like being current and having the status line read in some form. Maybe they'll tweak the program a little more for accessibility in future updates.

This is the time when a JAWS frame type feature would be good. You could create the frame around the status line and make it silent and only readable with the hotkey.


On 4/9/2020 9:57 AM, matthew dyer wrote:
Hi,


Getting the same thing.  Hope they can find a fix for this. Thanks.


Matthew



On 4/8/2020 5:44 PM, Roger Stewart wrote:
I just upgraded Thunderbird to the latest version.  I'm getting a lot of unwanted feedback telling me every time I delete a message how many messages have been moved to trash and how many unread messages are in the inbox.  I hope a fix can be found to turn this off. Maybe someone might find it useful, and if this is so, then a toggle to turn it on or off would be good.


Roger






locked Re: Thunderbird talking way too much

 

Ron,

         Accessibility is like all other things in that, "You can't please all of the people all of the time," and there is the added bonus of trying to decide what information to expose to a screen reader.   I have tried to explain, from a sighted perspective, just how much of what appears on any screen that those of us who see do ignore - we just filter it out as non-significant background clutter - except on the very rare occasion we might have an occasion to use it.  And a great deal of this kind of stuff is truly never attended to visually or otherwise by a majority of users.  Some of it is there as much for troubleshooting purposes as anything else.

         Joseph Lee first introduced me to the concept of "information blackout" for screen reader users, and because I had already tutored many in learning basic skills the concept immediately clicked.  As someone with sight, I can take in the entire gestalt of the screen and, without even realizing I'm doing it, processing information so that I know what to attend to and what to ignore.  A screen reader user can never do this and, even worse, is largely at the mercy of how well something is coded (particularly web pages) in terms of what the screen reader itself encounters first and presents to them.  If you rely on just sitting there and letting the screen reader read for anything other than completely unfamiliar material, you end up wasting a huge amount of time, and sometimes do for even unfamiliar material.  Using things like the screen reader search function, when you are virtually certain that the thing you are looking for is present and you know what word(s) would identify it, is what lets you zero in on the actual content you want.  That and using things like the NVDA elements lists to "hit the high points" in exploring material quickly rather than hoping you'll trip over something via reading.  But even if you are the perfect, ultra efficient screen reader user, you will still never be 100% certain that you've seen/heard everything, and that's even if you allow a read all from the start.  You really can't take it all in at once and do a preliminary filtering, and in any visual medium (and all print media like web pages, magazines, etc.) are visual media.

               The Thunderbird status line has always been visible by default, but it clearly has not had its content exposed to screen readers in the manner it is being exposed now.  I understood instantly what the problem was when I was watching and listening to someone using beta Thunderbird, and why it would drive one to madness in short order.  I can't imagine how few instances there would be in daily life where a screen reader user would give a fig about information being presented by the status bar when they are in the midst of actually reading e-mail.  It's an absolute intrusion, and one that doesn't allow you to absorb the content of your message nor the status bar in any useful way as well.  

                Someone made a boo boo.  Who knows who, or why, but at least it can be remedied if identified.  And even though turning off the status bar works, since it's on by default and you probably don't care about it then it's worth telling the Thunderbird folks what a hash this change has made.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363  

Power is being told you're not loved and not being destroyed by it.

       ~ Madonna

 

 


locked Re: Thunderbird talking way too much

Ron Canazzi
 

Hi Rob,

Boy do you make some good points here.  I used to be a private beta tester for JAWS way back.  Back in 2004, the anti virus program Trend Micro Internet Security was almost totally accessible. Beginning in 2008, they went from a  menu driven system to an HTML type interface.  However, the HTML interface was not standard.  I took it upon myself to launch a kind of crusade to get the developers to realize that this change made most aspects of Trend Micro Internet Security inaccessible. You could see many of the controls, but you could not interact with check boxes or buttons.

I went round and round both with e-mails and even via 800 tech support.  After about three weeks, they kept elevating me to supposedly higher levels of development. Finally, three weeks into this odyssey, they via telephone, put me in contact with the head developer.  When I went through my by this time memorized description of the issue, he replied in broken English: "How Do Ya use a computer if you blind?"  Nothing came of this and as far as I know, the program such as it is is still largely inaccessible.

See what I mean.

On 4/9/2020 1:34 PM, Rob Hudson wrote:
Brian Vogel <britechguy@gmail.com> wrote:
My point, which seems to have eluded you, is that I constantly see complaints about issues, but when I (or you, or anyone else) bring up the fact that you must report them if you want to have any hope of their being resolved there is generally nothing but the proverbial crickets in response.
This is likely because too many screen reader users have seen the, sorry but I can't duplicate this. Next! Message in response. In addition, there are some larger issues.
Much of the accessibility stack is integrated into the frameworks needed to build the applications; coders of the actual applications built within the framework itself rarely go out of their way to make their appications accessible. That their apps built with the framework are accessible is a happy coincidence. In other words the fact that Firefox and Thunderbird are largely accessible with screen readers is not necessarily due to someone at Mozilla going, hmm, lets open up NVDA/Jaws/whatever and see how this new feature works--although organizations like Mozilla <em>do</em> in fact have some a11y testers. I don't know how many programmers are actually screen reader users there, however. But anyway the accessibility support is there because the coding frameworks they use to construct the applications have basic accessibility built in to them. witness such browsers as Pale Moon, which have this infrastructure removed and which are almost completely unusable with screen readers.
Speaking in general about bug reporting. When you report an issue about an application not working with your screen reader, it is likely you're going to get a, wow, I didn't know about screen readers, response. Because the developers did not know their applications could be used at all by us. Then, you'll either get responses that fall into three categories:
1. Sorry, but I don't know anything about screen readers, so I don't know what to do to fix it. Thank you for your support.
2. Well, let's see if we can make it work. What do I need to do to make this thing work with your ... screen reader?
3. Crickets.
In category one, you're pretty much out of luck. In category two, unless you know about programming there's not much you can do either. And of course in ccategory three, again, out of luck.
This is a basic summary of why a lot of screen reader users don't report bugs. Yes, doing so may be helpful in a lot of cases, ut in most of them, it can be a futile exercise.

--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


locked Re: Thunderbird talking way too much

Ron Canazzi
 

Hi Brian,

I and many others do file bug reports.  I don't buy this stuff you keep promoting about lazy, good for nothing blind people.  As a private beta tester and overall ravel rouses, I can't count the number of e-mails to software developers I have sent.  The real issue is that the software developers are many times just plain insensitive to these complaints.  This does not mean we shouldn't try, but simply condemning all blind people or most blind people in the way you do is not valid.


On 4/9/2020 12:57 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
On Thu, Apr 9, 2020 at 12:42 PM, Gene wrote:
My question is why this wasn’t caught by reports from blind people before the release version.
Gene, do you honestly think that there were many, if any, based on what has been seen here and on other screen reader and associated technology groups?

My point, which seems to have eluded you, is that I constantly see complaints about issues, but when I (or you, or anyone else) bring up the fact that you must report them if you want to have any hope of their being resolved there is generally nothing but the proverbial crickets in response.

I have no reason to believe, based on what I have observed on multiple blind technology related groups, that most (and I do mean most, the vast majority most) screen reader users have ever filed a trouble ticket/bug report.  And until or unless they do they should not expect prompt attention to issues that may not even have been recognized.

Each user demographic is and should be responsible for advocating for themselves by reporting the issues they encounter to those who can fix them.  No one else will, or should.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363  

Power is being told you're not loved and not being destroyed by it.

       ~ Madonna

 

 


-- 
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"

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