Date   

some questions related to NVDA

abdul muhamin
 

Hi everyone, after updating to latest version, all of the windows 10 apps including mail is a bit laggy, why is that? is there a temporary fix for that? And what about the NVDA’s OCR feature? Have you planned to make it more enhance? I’m asking because today I experience difficulty while extracting the text from some pictures, the OCR is not much helpful as jaws, I love the NVDA screen reader as its so  much smaller and portable, and the last thing, what about the graphics/buttons labeler in NVDA? As far as I know, this is the most awaited and requested feature, because there are plenty of screen readers for windows and mobile phones which contains this feature since long, then why NVDA doesn’t have this feature yet? thanks

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 


Helping to make an Edge/Chrome RSS reader accessible

Amir
 

Greetings,


If you are into RSS feeds and feed subscriptions, you most likely know that Windows suffers from a paucity of accessible RSS readers. Internet Explorer offers an accessible RSS reader, but accessing articles in IE is quite problematic these days given the age of the browser itself. Thunderbird offers a good one, but it doesn't work the way a standard reader should operate in many ways. So I decided to see if I can find a good and stand-alone, I mean service/subscription-independent, RSS extension for MS Edge Chromium/Google Chrome as they have become quite popular. I tested a few readers but landed upon Smart RSS which, despite its accessibility shortcomings, sounds more promising: https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/smart-rss/eggggihfcaabljfpjiiaohloefmgejic?hl=en <https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/smart-rss/eggggihfcaabljfpjiiaohloefmgejic?hl=en>

Fortunately the developer is quite responsive and really wants to help make Smart RSS more accessible on Github. So if you are interested, please visit the following page and chip in with your perspectives and suggestions: https://github.com/SmartRSS/Smart-RSS/issues/132 <https://github.com/SmartRSS/Smart-RSS/issues/132>

Hope together we can find an accessible RSS solution for Windows 10/MS Edge Chromium/Google Chrome in order to get rid of Internet Explorer 11, once and for all!


Best,

Amir


Re: Unnecessary verbiage that wastes my time

Sharni-Lee Ward
 

Perhaps it's a "me" thing. I find email responses much slower on the whole, which is why I tried to turn to skype groups a while back for more prompt assistance. I would personally prefer a more realtime interaction rather than waiting hours for a response that might not be entirely helpful.


I will admit, however, that many of you are not as young (twenty-nine) as me, nor do many of you have as much free time. And perhaps I'm just impatient when I want a problem solved and should work on that rather than demand an entire group change how they do things for my own convenience.

On 8/08/2020 10:02 am, Luke Davis wrote:
I completely agree with Brian.

For me, it's far easier to write a well worded and detailed email, with considered steps to solve problems that people can refer back to and follow, than to have to get involved with an audio service where you have to be much more real-time.

Anyone is free to create anything they want for interaction about NVDA, but I wonder if getting the really experienced technical people to engage with it is likely.  Personally, I just don't have time for that kind of headache.

Luke


 On Fri, 7 Aug 2020, Brian Vogel wrote:

On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 06:58 PM, Sharni-Lee Ward wrote:
      . . . Discord server or something by now, though? Email lists are a bit old-school at this point.

1.  Groups.io has a full web interface and can be accessed as an online forum, which is precisely what I do.  Those who prefer e-mail have that option, and
based on the number of groups on the site, and how quickly it grew, "old school" still has a lot of fans.2.  With regard to Discord, and this is coming from
a tech geek, mind you, remember the sage observation of Bill Gray:  "A lot of what appears to be progress is just so much technological rococo."   I've
never seen the attraction after my brief interactions with it. Others, of course, feel differently. --


Re: Unnecessary verbiage that wastes my time

Luke Davis
 

I completely agree with Brian.

For me, it's far easier to write a well worded and detailed email, with considered steps to solve problems that people can refer back to and follow, than to have to get involved with an audio service where you have to be much more real-time.

Anyone is free to create anything they want for interaction about NVDA, but I wonder if getting the really experienced technical people to engage with it is likely. Personally, I just don't have time for that kind of headache.

Luke

On Fri, 7 Aug 2020, Brian Vogel wrote:

On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 06:58 PM, Sharni-Lee Ward wrote:
. . . Discord server or something by now, though? Email lists are a bit old-school at this point.
1.  Groups.io has a full web interface and can be accessed as an online forum, which is precisely what I do.  Those who prefer e-mail have that option, and
based on the number of groups on the site, and how quickly it grew, "old school" still has a lot of fans.2.  With regard to Discord, and this is coming from
a tech geek, mind you, remember the sage observation of Bill Gray:  "A lot of what appears to be progress is just so much technological rococo."   I've
never seen the attraction after my brief interactions with it.  Others, of course, feel differently. --


Re: Unnecessary verbiage that wastes my time

 

On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 06:58 PM, Sharni-Lee Ward wrote:
. . . Discord server or something by now, though? Email lists are a bit old-school at this point.
1.  Groups.io has a full web interface and can be accessed as an online forum, which is precisely what I do.  Those who prefer e-mail have that option, and based on the number of groups on the site, and how quickly it grew, "old school" still has a lot of fans.

2.  With regard to Discord, and this is coming from a tech geek, mind you, remember the sage observation of Bill Gray:  "A lot of what appears to be progress is just so much technological rococo."   I've never seen the attraction after my brief interactions with it.  Others, of course, feel differently.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363  

A gentleman is one who never hurts anyone's feelings unintentionally.

          ~ Oscar Wilde

 


Re: Unnecessary verbiage that wastes my time

Jesse Farquharson
 

Regarding Discord, I recently created a server for discussing all things audio, but it has been suggested that I create specific areas for the NVDA and JAWS communities. So the groundwork is already there. If anyone wants to join the server or wants to express their interest in such an area, please contact me off list.


Re: Unnecessary verbiage that wastes my time

Sharni-Lee Ward
 

I might be interested in putting in my two cents on this topic. Shouldn't the NVDA community have a Discord server or something by now, though? Email lists are a bit old-school at this point.

On 8/08/2020 1:35 am, Gene wrote:
I don't know who is interested in the topic of what is announced during web page navigation but I'm going to start a topic on what is helpful and useful and what is just clutter on the chat list so those interested may want to join.  The chat list is a low traffic list.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: Joseph Lee
Sent: Friday, August 07, 2020 10:21 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Unnecessary verbiage that wastes my time

Hi,
It's a combination of user expectations, what document writers wrote, and specifications. In case of "figure/out of figure", it's more towards ARIA specs, how web authors wrote their sites 9including which framework is in use), and how NVDA got such an information.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Friday, August 7, 2020 8:19 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Unnecessary verbiage that wastes my time

I should clarify, based on what Brian said, that I don't object to the text being read in this instance or in general.  I object to figure and out of figure being announced . Just as I object to announcement of bloc quotes being on.  Its not the text being read I object to but people in general don't benefit from hearing such information.  It seems to me that the designers should consider what is useful infrmation in terms of navigating and in terms of what people generally use when determining what should be announced by default.  I don't know how they determine what is announced.

Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: Felix G.
Sent: Friday, August 07, 2020 9:46 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Unnecessary verbiage that wastes my time

Hi!
I've been reading along and I know this feeling. I often refer to it as the user experience that nobody designed. On the one hand there's a screen reader developer, on the other there's an app developer or web designer. They don't know each other, and yet their decisions converge on our experience of their products. In the sighted world nobody would get away with it, but we get translations of translations, almost never what someone consciously designed.
Best,
Felix


Am Do., 6. Aug. 2020 um 17:58 Uhr schrieb Brian Vogel
<britechguy@gmail.com>:

On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 10:34 AM, Gene wrote:

People would never put up with a human reader announcing all this clutter.

I'd say that's absolutely true, but they'd probably also expect a
human reader to say something about the fact that there is a
figure/image present and what it illustrates as a part of the reading,
unless the person their reading for has explicitly requested they only
read the main text.

I actually feel your pain, and have had exactly that same feeling
many, many times with multiple screen readers.  I hope that someday
there arrives AI sophisticated enough to screen read the way "your
average sighted person" would likely take in looking at content.
Heaven knows we virtually never look at scads of the navigation links
and the like at the outset, but the main page content first.

But at this point in time, since a screen reader itself has no idea,
really, of what it is you (any you) are looking for on a given page it
offers "way too much" rather than allowing you to possibly miss the
presence of something.

It would be nice if all of these sorts of things were arranged in "chunks"
of announcements that fit a certain class, and that you could have the
option of turning off the entire class with one checkbox, or going
through the individual things announced and unchecking the ones you
explicitly don't want while retaining the others.  And do I ever know
what a PITA that would be to code, and for the user to slog through,
but in any really complex system where a high level of customization
is wanted or needed, this is how its obtained.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363

A gentleman is one who never hurts anyone's feelings unintentionally.

          ~ Oscar Wilde













Re: A possible bug

Gene
 

I'll send it.

Its good to know the problem isn't a fault with NVDA.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Greg Williams
Sent: Friday, August 07, 2020 2:43 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] A possible bug

That would be fine with me. Also I forgot to say that I verified that
removing the aria-label from the link did allow NVDA to see the h2 tag
as it does in the other links.

Greg


On 8/7/2020 3:28 PM, Gene wrote:
I'm not sure if I have the technical knowledge to present this to The Times. Do you object if I forward part of your remarks that describe the problem?

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: Greg Williams
Sent: Friday, August 07, 2020 2:02 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] A possible bug

It is an issue with the HTML. For whatever reason, they coded the links
under the opinion section differently than the rest of the links. They
used accessibility badly which made it worse than if they had done
nothing. In the opinion section, the put an aria-label on the <a> tag
for the link; this tells assistive technology to ignore any other text
in the link. The h2 tag is wrapped inside the <a> tag which means that
it also gets ignored by the assitive technology.

I imagine that the reason the old version of NVDA detected the headings
is that it is old enough that it did not handle aria-labels and so just
ignored them and picked up the nested content including the h2. I will
stop here and refrain from giving my opinion on the coding practices in
the webpage.

Greg


On 8/6/2020 9:46 PM, Gene wrote:
I haven't asked The Times. I thought it was a problem with NVDA since mhy old version recognizes them as headings. I haven't used JAWS to any extent for years but it might be useful for someone using a current JAWS to see if these links are seen as headings.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: Gene
Sent: Thursday, August 06, 2020 8:42 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] A possible bug

When I use a very old version of NVDA, they are reported as headings when I
move from heading to heading with report headings turned on. I don't know
what the last version was that this occurs. I can also move to the articles
when using filter by headings in the elements list of the old version.

I don't know how old a version of NVDA needs to be used. I use Windows 7
and I still use 13.x much of the time because it does almost everything I
want. I play around with new versions at times.

All other articles on the page are reported as headings in the new NVDA. So
why aren't these and how often, on other pages, may material be being
missed?

Evidently, there is something different about these headings but what?

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: Quentin Christensen
Sent: Thursday, August 06, 2020 8:27 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] A possible bug


Hi Gene,

It looks like those articles aren't marked up as headings. If you go to the
Opinion heading, you can then press TAB or K to go to the links for the
pieces, but they aren't reported as headings. Looking in the elements list,
I can find them in the links but not headings.

Pages like the New York Times are quite complex and it's likely something
has been missed somewhere along the line. What did the NYT people have to
say?

Quentin.


On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 8:24 AM Gene <gsasner@gmail.com> wrote:
I'm using the latest beta, I haven't switched to the production version.

This appears to be a bug and it may result in information being missed. On
The New York Times home page, using Firefox or Brave, I haven't yet tested
with Chrome, but Brave is Chrome-based, when you get to the opinion part of
the page, the articles in that section aren't seen as headings. All other
articles are seen as headings and using a very old NVDA, the articles in the
opinion section are seen as headings. This is using Windows 7.

I just tested with NVDA 2019.2.21 and the same thing happens so this likely
bug has been around for some time.

I also just tested with Chrome and the same thing occurs. All articles in
the opinion section are skipped and the screen-reader moves directly to the
editor's picks heading. It needs to be determined what is causing this
problem and that may help determine its seriousness.

Gene












Re: A possible bug

Greg Williams
 

That would be fine with me. Also I forgot to say that I verified that removing the aria-label from the link did allow NVDA to see the h2 tag as it does in the other links.

Greg

On 8/7/2020 3:28 PM, Gene wrote:
I'm not sure if I have the technical knowledge to present this to The Times. Do you object if I forward part of your remarks that describe the problem?

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: Greg Williams
Sent: Friday, August 07, 2020 2:02 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] A possible bug

It is an issue with the HTML. For whatever reason, they coded the links
under the opinion section differently than the rest of the links. They
used accessibility badly which made it worse than if they had done
nothing. In the opinion section, the put an aria-label on the <a> tag
for the link; this tells assistive technology to  ignore any other text
in the link. The h2 tag is wrapped inside the <a> tag which means that
it also gets ignored by the assitive technology.

I imagine that the reason the old version of NVDA detected the headings
is that it is old enough that it did not handle aria-labels and so just
ignored them and picked up the nested content including the h2. I will
stop here and refrain from giving my opinion on the coding practices in
the webpage.

Greg


On 8/6/2020 9:46 PM, Gene wrote:
I haven't asked The Times.  I thought it was a problem with NVDA since mhy old version recognizes them as headings.  I haven't used JAWS to any extent for years but it might be useful for someone using a current JAWS to see if these links are seen as headings.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: Gene
Sent: Thursday, August 06, 2020 8:42 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] A possible bug

When I use a very old version of NVDA, they are reported as headings when I
move from heading to heading with report headings turned on.  I don't know
what the last version was that this occurs.  I can also move to the articles
when using filter by headings in the elements list of the old version.

I don't know how old a version of NVDA needs to be used.  I use Windows 7
and I still use 13.x much of the time because it does almost everything I
want.  I play around with new versions at times.

All other articles on the page are reported as headings in the new NVDA. So
why aren't these and how often, on other pages, may material be being
missed?

Evidently, there is something different about these headings but what?

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: Quentin Christensen
Sent: Thursday, August 06, 2020 8:27 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] A possible bug


Hi Gene,

It looks like those articles aren't marked up as headings.  If you go to the
Opinion heading, you can then press TAB or K to go to the links for the
pieces, but they aren't reported as headings.  Looking in the elements list,
I can find them in the links but not headings.

Pages like the New York Times are quite complex and it's likely something
has been missed somewhere along the line.  What did the NYT people have to
say?

Quentin.


On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 8:24 AM Gene <gsasner@gmail.com> wrote:
I'm using the latest beta, I haven't switched to the production version.

This appears to be a bug and it may result in information being missed. On
The New York Times home page, using Firefox or Brave, I haven't yet tested
with Chrome, but Brave is Chrome-based, when you get to the opinion part of
the page, the articles in that section aren't seen as headings. All other
articles are seen as headings and using a very old NVDA, the articles in the
opinion section are seen as headings.  This is using Windows 7.

I just tested with NVDA 2019.2.21 and the same thing happens so this likely
bug has been around for some time.

I also just tested with Chrome and the same thing occurs.  All articles in
the opinion section are skipped and the screen-reader moves directly to the
editor's picks heading.  It needs to be determined what is causing this
problem and that may help determine its seriousness.

Gene











Re: A possible bug

Gene
 

I'm not sure if I have the technical knowledge to present this to The Times. Do you object if I forward part of your remarks that describe the problem?

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Greg Williams
Sent: Friday, August 07, 2020 2:02 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] A possible bug

It is an issue with the HTML. For whatever reason, they coded the links
under the opinion section differently than the rest of the links. They
used accessibility badly which made it worse than if they had done
nothing. In the opinion section, the put an aria-label on the <a> tag
for the link; this tells assistive technology to ignore any other text
in the link. The h2 tag is wrapped inside the <a> tag which means that
it also gets ignored by the assitive technology.

I imagine that the reason the old version of NVDA detected the headings
is that it is old enough that it did not handle aria-labels and so just
ignored them and picked up the nested content including the h2. I will
stop here and refrain from giving my opinion on the coding practices in
the webpage.

Greg


On 8/6/2020 9:46 PM, Gene wrote:
I haven't asked The Times. I thought it was a problem with NVDA since mhy old version recognizes them as headings. I haven't used JAWS to any extent for years but it might be useful for someone using a current JAWS to see if these links are seen as headings.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: Gene
Sent: Thursday, August 06, 2020 8:42 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] A possible bug

When I use a very old version of NVDA, they are reported as headings when I
move from heading to heading with report headings turned on. I don't know
what the last version was that this occurs. I can also move to the articles
when using filter by headings in the elements list of the old version.

I don't know how old a version of NVDA needs to be used. I use Windows 7
and I still use 13.x much of the time because it does almost everything I
want. I play around with new versions at times.

All other articles on the page are reported as headings in the new NVDA. So
why aren't these and how often, on other pages, may material be being
missed?

Evidently, there is something different about these headings but what?

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: Quentin Christensen
Sent: Thursday, August 06, 2020 8:27 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] A possible bug


Hi Gene,

It looks like those articles aren't marked up as headings. If you go to the
Opinion heading, you can then press TAB or K to go to the links for the
pieces, but they aren't reported as headings. Looking in the elements list,
I can find them in the links but not headings.

Pages like the New York Times are quite complex and it's likely something
has been missed somewhere along the line. What did the NYT people have to
say?

Quentin.


On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 8:24 AM Gene <gsasner@gmail.com> wrote:
I'm using the latest beta, I haven't switched to the production version.

This appears to be a bug and it may result in information being missed. On
The New York Times home page, using Firefox or Brave, I haven't yet tested
with Chrome, but Brave is Chrome-based, when you get to the opinion part of
the page, the articles in that section aren't seen as headings. All other
articles are seen as headings and using a very old NVDA, the articles in the
opinion section are seen as headings. This is using Windows 7.

I just tested with NVDA 2019.2.21 and the same thing happens so this likely
bug has been around for some time.

I also just tested with Chrome and the same thing occurs. All articles in
the opinion section are skipped and the screen-reader moves directly to the
editor's picks heading. It needs to be determined what is causing this
problem and that may help determine its seriousness.

Gene








Re: A possible bug

Greg Williams
 

It is an issue with the HTML. For whatever reason, they coded the links under the opinion section differently than the rest of the links. They used accessibility badly which made it worse than if they had done nothing. In the opinion section, the put an aria-label on the <a> tag for the link; this tells assistive technology to  ignore any other text in the link. The h2 tag is wrapped inside the <a> tag which means that it also gets ignored by the assitive technology.

I imagine that the reason the old version of NVDA detected the headings is that it is old enough that it did not handle aria-labels and so just ignored them and picked up the nested content including the h2. I will stop here and refrain from giving my opinion on the coding practices in the webpage.

Greg

On 8/6/2020 9:46 PM, Gene wrote:
I haven't asked The Times.  I thought it was a problem with NVDA since mhy old version recognizes them as headings.  I haven't used JAWS to any extent for years but it might be useful for someone using a current JAWS to see if these links are seen as headings.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: Gene
Sent: Thursday, August 06, 2020 8:42 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] A possible bug

When I use a very old version of NVDA, they are reported as headings when I
move from heading to heading with report headings turned on.  I don't know
what the last version was that this occurs.  I can also move to the articles
when using filter by headings in the elements list of the old version.

I don't know how old a version of NVDA needs to be used.  I use Windows 7
and I still use 13.x much of the time because it does almost everything I
want.  I play around with new versions at times.

All other articles on the page are reported as headings in the new NVDA.  So
why aren't these and how often, on other pages, may material be being
missed?

Evidently, there is something different about these headings but what?

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: Quentin Christensen
Sent: Thursday, August 06, 2020 8:27 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] A possible bug


Hi Gene,

It looks like those articles aren't marked up as headings.  If you go to the
Opinion heading, you can then press TAB or K to go to the links for the
pieces, but they aren't reported as headings.  Looking in the elements list,
I can find them in the links but not headings.

Pages like the New York Times are quite complex and it's likely something
has been missed somewhere along the line.  What did the NYT people have to
say?

Quentin.


On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 8:24 AM Gene <gsasner@gmail.com> wrote:
I'm using the latest beta, I haven't switched to the production version.

This appears to be a bug and it may result in information being missed.  On
The New York Times home page, using Firefox or Brave, I haven't yet tested
with Chrome, but Brave is Chrome-based, when you get to the opinion part of
the page, the articles in that section aren't seen as headings. All other
articles are seen as headings and using a very old NVDA, the articles in the
opinion section are seen as headings.  This is using Windows 7.

I just tested with NVDA 2019.2.21 and the same thing happens so this likely
bug has been around for some time.

I also just tested with Chrome and the same thing occurs.  All articles in
the opinion section are skipped and the screen-reader moves directly to the
editor's picks heading.  It needs to be determined what is causing this
problem and that may help determine its seriousness.

Gene








hims Qbraille XL list

Afik Souffir <afik.souffir@...>
 

 

Hello all

 

I've created a Qbraille XL list for your questions and suggestions.

 

Feel free to join and distribute it out.

 

The subscription address is

q-braille-xl+subscribe@groups.io

 

 

 

 

 

 

Cordialement,

 

Afik Souffir

 

Portable: 0505782208

Addresse email

Afik.souffir@outlook.com

 

 


Re: Unnecessary verbiage that wastes my time

CARLOS-ESTEBAN <carlosestebanpianista@...>
 

Hello.

Well, a possible option is use the reader mode of the browsers. In Firefox and new Microsoft Edge press f9.

In Chrome, go to the page chrome://flags. In the edit box search, write "reader mode" and press enter. After, press tab and enabled this feature.

Restart Chrome and after you can press f6, and tab two times for the button enable reader mode and press enter.

An other solution is use the add-on Virtual Revieu, but I dont know if this addon work in web pages.

Regards.


El 7/8/2020 a las 9:46, Felix G. escribió:
Hi!
I've been reading along and I know this feeling. I often refer to it
as the user experience that nobody designed. On the one hand there's a
screen reader developer, on the other there's an app developer or web
designer. They don't know each other, and yet their decisions converge
on our experience of their products. In the sighted world nobody would
get away with it, but we get translations of translations, almost
never what someone consciously designed.
Best,
Felix


Am Do., 6. Aug. 2020 um 17:58 Uhr schrieb Brian Vogel <britechguy@...>:
On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 10:34 AM, Gene wrote:

People would never put up with a human reader announcing all this clutter.

I'd say that's absolutely true, but they'd probably also expect a human reader to say something about the fact that there is a figure/image present and what it illustrates as a part of the reading, unless the person their reading for has explicitly requested they only read the main text.

I actually feel your pain, and have had exactly that same feeling many, many times with multiple screen readers.  I hope that someday there arrives AI sophisticated enough to screen read the way "your average sighted person" would likely take in looking at content.  Heaven knows we virtually never look at scads of the navigation links and the like at the outset, but the main page content first.

But at this point in time, since a screen reader itself has no idea, really, of what it is you (any you) are looking for on a given page it offers "way too much" rather than allowing you to possibly miss the presence of something.

It would be nice if all of these sorts of things were arranged in "chunks" of announcements that fit a certain class, and that you could have the option of turning off the entire class with one checkbox, or going through the individual things announced and unchecking the ones you explicitly don't want while retaining the others.  And do I ever know what a PITA that would be to code, and for the user to slog through, but in any really complex system where a high level of customization is wanted or needed, this is how its obtained.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363

A gentleman is one who never hurts anyone's feelings unintentionally.

          ~ Oscar Wilde






--

Carlos Esteban Martínez Macías.

Músico (pianista) y también ayuda a usuarios ciegos con el uso de lectores de pantalla y tecnología.

Experto certificado en el lector de pantalla NVDA.


Musicien (pianist) and also help to the blind people in the use of screen readers and technology. Certified expert in the screen reader NVDA.


Re: Unnecessary verbiage that wastes my time

Gene
 

I don't know who is interested in the topic of what is announced during web page navigation but I'm going to start a topic on what is helpful and useful and what is just clutter on the chat list so those interested may want to join. The chat list is a low traffic list.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Joseph Lee
Sent: Friday, August 07, 2020 10:21 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Unnecessary verbiage that wastes my time

Hi,
It's a combination of user expectations, what document writers wrote, and specifications. In case of "figure/out of figure", it's more towards ARIA specs, how web authors wrote their sites 9including which framework is in use), and how NVDA got such an information.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Friday, August 7, 2020 8:19 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Unnecessary verbiage that wastes my time

I should clarify, based on what Brian said, that I don't object to the text being read in this instance or in general. I object to figure and out of figure being announced . Just as I object to announcement of bloc quotes being on. Its not the text being read I object to but people in general don't benefit from hearing such information. It seems to me that the designers should consider what is useful infrmation in terms of navigating and in terms of what people generally use when determining what should be announced by default. I don't know how they determine what is announced.

Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: Felix G.
Sent: Friday, August 07, 2020 9:46 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Unnecessary verbiage that wastes my time

Hi!
I've been reading along and I know this feeling. I often refer to it as the user experience that nobody designed. On the one hand there's a screen reader developer, on the other there's an app developer or web designer. They don't know each other, and yet their decisions converge on our experience of their products. In the sighted world nobody would get away with it, but we get translations of translations, almost never what someone consciously designed.
Best,
Felix


Am Do., 6. Aug. 2020 um 17:58 Uhr schrieb Brian Vogel
<britechguy@gmail.com>:

On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 10:34 AM, Gene wrote:

People would never put up with a human reader announcing all this clutter.

I'd say that's absolutely true, but they'd probably also expect a
human reader to say something about the fact that there is a
figure/image present and what it illustrates as a part of the reading,
unless the person their reading for has explicitly requested they only
read the main text.

I actually feel your pain, and have had exactly that same feeling
many, many times with multiple screen readers. I hope that someday
there arrives AI sophisticated enough to screen read the way "your
average sighted person" would likely take in looking at content.
Heaven knows we virtually never look at scads of the navigation links
and the like at the outset, but the main page content first.

But at this point in time, since a screen reader itself has no idea,
really, of what it is you (any you) are looking for on a given page it
offers "way too much" rather than allowing you to possibly miss the
presence of something.

It would be nice if all of these sorts of things were arranged in "chunks"
of announcements that fit a certain class, and that you could have the
option of turning off the entire class with one checkbox, or going
through the individual things announced and unchecking the ones you
explicitly don't want while retaining the others. And do I ever know
what a PITA that would be to code, and for the user to slog through,
but in any really complex system where a high level of customization
is wanted or needed, this is how its obtained.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363

A gentleman is one who never hurts anyone's feelings unintentionally.

~ Oscar Wilde




Re: Unnecessary verbiage that wastes my time

 

Hi,
It's a combination of user expectations, what document writers wrote, and specifications. In case of "figure/out of figure", it's more towards ARIA specs, how web authors wrote their sites 9including which framework is in use), and how NVDA got such an information.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Friday, August 7, 2020 8:19 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Unnecessary verbiage that wastes my time

I should clarify, based on what Brian said, that I don't object to the text being read in this instance or in general. I object to figure and out of figure being announced . Just as I object to announcement of bloc quotes being on. Its not the text being read I object to but people in general don't benefit from hearing such information. It seems to me that the designers should consider what is useful infrmation in terms of navigating and in terms of what people generally use when determining what should be announced by default. I don't know how they determine what is announced.

Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: Felix G.
Sent: Friday, August 07, 2020 9:46 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Unnecessary verbiage that wastes my time

Hi!
I've been reading along and I know this feeling. I often refer to it as the user experience that nobody designed. On the one hand there's a screen reader developer, on the other there's an app developer or web designer. They don't know each other, and yet their decisions converge on our experience of their products. In the sighted world nobody would get away with it, but we get translations of translations, almost never what someone consciously designed.
Best,
Felix


Am Do., 6. Aug. 2020 um 17:58 Uhr schrieb Brian Vogel
<britechguy@gmail.com>:

On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 10:34 AM, Gene wrote:

People would never put up with a human reader announcing all this clutter.

I'd say that's absolutely true, but they'd probably also expect a
human reader to say something about the fact that there is a
figure/image present and what it illustrates as a part of the reading,
unless the person their reading for has explicitly requested they only
read the main text.

I actually feel your pain, and have had exactly that same feeling
many, many times with multiple screen readers. I hope that someday
there arrives AI sophisticated enough to screen read the way "your
average sighted person" would likely take in looking at content.
Heaven knows we virtually never look at scads of the navigation links
and the like at the outset, but the main page content first.

But at this point in time, since a screen reader itself has no idea,
really, of what it is you (any you) are looking for on a given page it
offers "way too much" rather than allowing you to possibly miss the
presence of something.

It would be nice if all of these sorts of things were arranged in "chunks"
of announcements that fit a certain class, and that you could have the
option of turning off the entire class with one checkbox, or going
through the individual things announced and unchecking the ones you
explicitly don't want while retaining the others. And do I ever know
what a PITA that would be to code, and for the user to slog through,
but in any really complex system where a high level of customization
is wanted or needed, this is how its obtained.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363

A gentleman is one who never hurts anyone's feelings unintentionally.

~ Oscar Wilde




Re: Unnecessary verbiage that wastes my time

Gene
 

I should clarify, based on what Brian said, that I don't object to the text being read in this instance or in general. I object to figure and out of figure being announced . Just as I object to announcement of bloc quotes being on. Its not the text being read I object to but people in general don't benefit from hearing such information. It seems to me that the designers should consider what is useful infrmation in terms of navigating and in terms of what people generally use when determining what should be announced by default. I don't know how they determine what is announced.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Felix G.
Sent: Friday, August 07, 2020 9:46 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Unnecessary verbiage that wastes my time

Hi!
I've been reading along and I know this feeling. I often refer to it
as the user experience that nobody designed. On the one hand there's a
screen reader developer, on the other there's an app developer or web
designer. They don't know each other, and yet their decisions converge
on our experience of their products. In the sighted world nobody would
get away with it, but we get translations of translations, almost
never what someone consciously designed.
Best,
Felix


Am Do., 6. Aug. 2020 um 17:58 Uhr schrieb Brian Vogel <britechguy@gmail.com>:

On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 10:34 AM, Gene wrote:

People would never put up with a human reader announcing all this clutter.

I'd say that's absolutely true, but they'd probably also expect a human reader to say something about the fact that there is a figure/image present and what it illustrates as a part of the reading, unless the person their reading for has explicitly requested they only read the main text.

I actually feel your pain, and have had exactly that same feeling many, many times with multiple screen readers. I hope that someday there arrives AI sophisticated enough to screen read the way "your average sighted person" would likely take in looking at content. Heaven knows we virtually never look at scads of the navigation links and the like at the outset, but the main page content first.

But at this point in time, since a screen reader itself has no idea, really, of what it is you (any you) are looking for on a given page it offers "way too much" rather than allowing you to possibly miss the presence of something.

It would be nice if all of these sorts of things were arranged in "chunks" of announcements that fit a certain class, and that you could have the option of turning off the entire class with one checkbox, or going through the individual things announced and unchecking the ones you explicitly don't want while retaining the others. And do I ever know what a PITA that would be to code, and for the user to slog through, but in any really complex system where a high level of customization is wanted or needed, this is how its obtained.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363

A gentleman is one who never hurts anyone's feelings unintentionally.

~ Oscar Wilde




Re: Unnecessary verbiage that wastes my time

 

On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 10:46 AM, Felix G. wrote:
but we get translations of translations, almost never what someone consciously designed.
-
Because, at least to some extent, that's what happens when you translate one sense to another.  There is no way to make a great deal of what "makes perfect sense" in the sensory idiom for which it was designed to have that perfect sense in another.  All accessibility is a workaround.

Not that I don't understand what you're saying, as I've said it, too, but it is not something you can ever entirely get away from.

And you also say, "In the sighted world nobody would get away with it."   And to a large extent, that's true, but that's not because it's "the sighted world" but because the things designed are being primarily designed with the sense of sight in mind.   Given that the vast majority of the world can see, and that the medium itself is meant to be consumed via sight, that's what makes the most sense, wouldn't you say?

Expecting websites and print media to be primarily designed with the blind in mind would be akin to expecting music to be composed primarily with the deaf in mind.  [And that's not to excuse plain sloppiness and inaccessibility, either.]
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363  

A gentleman is one who never hurts anyone's feelings unintentionally.

          ~ Oscar Wilde

 


Re: Unnecessary verbiage that wastes my time

Felix G.
 

Hi!
I've been reading along and I know this feeling. I often refer to it
as the user experience that nobody designed. On the one hand there's a
screen reader developer, on the other there's an app developer or web
designer. They don't know each other, and yet their decisions converge
on our experience of their products. In the sighted world nobody would
get away with it, but we get translations of translations, almost
never what someone consciously designed.
Best,
Felix


Am Do., 6. Aug. 2020 um 17:58 Uhr schrieb Brian Vogel <britechguy@gmail.com>:


On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 10:34 AM, Gene wrote:

People would never put up with a human reader announcing all this clutter.

I'd say that's absolutely true, but they'd probably also expect a human reader to say something about the fact that there is a figure/image present and what it illustrates as a part of the reading, unless the person their reading for has explicitly requested they only read the main text.

I actually feel your pain, and have had exactly that same feeling many, many times with multiple screen readers. I hope that someday there arrives AI sophisticated enough to screen read the way "your average sighted person" would likely take in looking at content. Heaven knows we virtually never look at scads of the navigation links and the like at the outset, but the main page content first.

But at this point in time, since a screen reader itself has no idea, really, of what it is you (any you) are looking for on a given page it offers "way too much" rather than allowing you to possibly miss the presence of something.

It would be nice if all of these sorts of things were arranged in "chunks" of announcements that fit a certain class, and that you could have the option of turning off the entire class with one checkbox, or going through the individual things announced and unchecking the ones you explicitly don't want while retaining the others. And do I ever know what a PITA that would be to code, and for the user to slog through, but in any really complex system where a high level of customization is wanted or needed, this is how its obtained.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363

A gentleman is one who never hurts anyone's feelings unintentionally.

~ Oscar Wilde




Nvda and Thunderbird

Jarek.Krcmar
 

Hello everyone,
I already have a problem with Thunderbird solved.
1. In Thunderbird it is necessary to uncheck the status bar, 2. in Nvda Presentation of objects it is necessary to uncheck context help and notifications.
Regards

--
Jarek


Re: Object Navigation - Where and How Do You Use It?

Chris Mullins
 

Hi Brian

I understand you are using Object navigation in this case to gain knowledge of how to use it but I thought I would make you aware of the Virtual Review add-on.  With Virtual Review installed, pressing NVDA+Ctrl+w when the About window is in focus, will open a temporary textual window containing the information from the About window you can’t access in situe using the keyboard.  You can arrow around the virtual review window to read the info then press escape to dismiss it and return focus back to the About window itself.

 

Cheers

Chris

 

 

from the  In

 

From: Brian Vogel
Sent: 06 August 2020 23:41
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Object Navigation - Where and How Do You Use It?

 

On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 06:35 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:

You can’t use keyboard commands to look at various system information displayed on that screen – you must use object navigation to read them.

-
Thank you for this specific example.   Again, this is very handy for me to have as I now have a specific location where playing with object navigation gets me a result I cannot get otherwise, and I've been told what that result would be.  I just went through the list of items near the top of the About pane and got "status green" for each after it was read, and had no idea of exactly how I was supposed to (or even if I could) get to that information via NVDA.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363  

A gentleman is one who never hurts anyone's feelings unintentionally.

          ~ Oscar Wilde

 

 

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