Date   

Re: Links on websites with submenus and/or links that NVDA can't interact with

Gene
 

I was using Chrome.  I tested with my XP machine, which I use for e-mail in general.  My version of Chrome is old, for that reason, but I would expect the site to work the same if I tested with my current Chrome version on my Windows 7 machine.  I may do that to be sure.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2019 8:10 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Links on websites with submenus and/or links that NVDA can't interact with

Hmm. Were you using Chrome?

I'll have to double check to see if JavaScript is on in Chrome.



On 11/6/19, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
> I just looked at the site with JAVA script on.  I followed one of the links
> and it opened another page as a standard link does.  I see that the site has
> a login place, and you didn't say if you did so.  I didn't look enough to
> see if features are available if you log in that aren't otherwise, but the
> entire home page appears accessible to me.  In addition, between each of the
> navigation links is a link that says skip navigation links.  You really only
> need one but since someone put a skip link after every navigation link, that
> strongly implies to me that the site was designed to be accessible, even if
> this or that accomodation may be overdoing it.
>
> I'm not sure what accounts for your problems or if, given more information,
> we can see them.  But just going to the site and looking around doesn't show
> me any.
>
> Gene
> ----- Original Message -----
>
>     Hi all,
>
>     I just visited the following website:
>
>     http://canadianxpress.ca/
>
>     I notice that when going there, there is a number sign at the end of
>     the address. There are multiple websites I've found like this, and
>     each time I've encountered issues.
>     On this particular site I believe the main links open up drop downs
>     with additional links underneath the main one. Is there a way, whether
>     via addons or other, to make this and other sites like this usable,
>     short of contacting the webmaster who may or may not change the links
>     to make them clickable? Jaws simply announces the links as mouse
>     overs, but has the same result as NVDA. I've come across sites where
>     to hover over content, you can simply activate object navigation and
>     route the mouse cursor to the link in question and more information
>     will be present. Not with this one, however...
>
>     Any help would be appreciated. Tried switching browsers as well.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>



Re: NVDA adding and changing settings

Gene
 

I didn't say you said that.  You said and this is a quote, for those with punctuation off, "Similar to announcing cut, copied or pasted, reporting when a document is saved is not something we would be inclined to add to NVDA UNLESS we could be sure a document had been saved." 
 
I see no evidence that copy, cut, and paste, can't be definitely determined.  I don't know what JAWS does or System Access, nor do I know how the add-on monitors to determine when text is copied and pasted.  But the reason the developers didn't want to put a copy and paste announcement in NVDA is because they said you can't tell when those actions are done, which is incorrect.  I'm saying that some how, when this was being considered, the developers believed it couldn't be done and that is stated in the Github (spelling) discussion. 
 
A copy and paste announcement is a different case from an e-mail sent announcement.  In the e-mail case, you get an indication from the program whether the message was sent.  When you copy, there is nothing that happens to confirm that you have done so.  Without such confirmation, very inconvenient things may occur.  Suppose you are copying or moving files.  You issue the copy command, move fifteen selected files, then issue the copy command after you have selected twenty more files.  You then paste in a different folder than the first fifteen.  Imagine the annoyance when you find you have copied the first fifteen files over again.  You then have the annoyance of having to delete them, go back, copy the twenty files over again after you select them again, then paste them again.  The same thing could happen with text.
 
You can't assume that even if you are careful and know you have issued the copy command correctly, that it has worked.  I have exeecuted commands in the past that weren't carried out for some reason and I had to execute the command twice.  Before the add-on, I had inconveniences such as I described above now and then.  They could have been avoided if the add-on had been available or if a copy and paste announcement were built into NVDA.  I consider this an important function and it should be built into the screen-reader. 
 
My experience is that the add-on is accurate, but if others have experiences that it isn't as good as it ideally should be, then that could be worked on. 
 
But aside from my experience that the add-on works well, my experience with JAWS, which I used for years before NVDA existed, is that it is accurate.  I'm saying that the premise on which the function was rejected is incorrect.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2019 7:32 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

I didn't say you couldn't make an educational assumption about when copying and pasting has taken place, and from what I've experienced, the add-on does do an excellent job of this.  What I meant by us not being able to tell, was more that it would involve checking other things to determine whether something has been copied etc, rather than having something exposed from the program or Windows which states definitively "text has been copied" (or how much, or whatever).  The fact that the add-on does such a good job of it, could be an argument to put forward a case for adding it to NVDA core.  My understanding is that this is basically how other screen readers make the same assumptions about copying and pasting.

Re knowing when an email has been sent.  In a way, it is the same thing, because you don't get a message saying it has been sent, but you know it has been sent because the draft email disappears when you give the instruction to send it, and there's no error message.  Theoretically, NVDA could be made to give the user a message that the email had been sent.  You are right about teaching people to use those cues to know that it has been sent, my point was simply that in my experience, if you haven't got them familiar with the idea beforehand, probably the majority of people, if you just instruct them how to write an email and what button to press to send it, will immediately ask "did it send?"  The merits of adding a confirmation to reassure new users, vs only notifying when there is an error could be debated either way, but that's the way it works, and largely, that is the same for copying text.

We could do away with a lot of confirmation messages if we expect people to understand what commands they are giving the computer and the ways they behave.  Or, we could add in a lot more confirmation messages if we want to make computers more novice friendly.  Is the current system perfect?  Probably not.  Office, for instance, has changed to automatically saving documents.  Once you've saved a document once, in Word 2003, if you write some more text, and then press ALT+F4, Word will ask if you want to save the changes.  Word 365 will have already saved your changes and will simply close.  Which way is correct?  You could argue either way - and in fact, in the Office 365 model currenly, you NEVER get a confirmation your document has been saved.  But you can infer it by reading the title bar (for the purpose of the conversation, disregard the bug that currently prevents getting that information) and by the fact that you don't get prompted to save when you try to close Word.


On Fri, Nov 8, 2019 at 10:48 AM Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
If an e-mail has been sent, the window closes and you are automatically placed where you were before you wrote, replied, to, or forwarded a message.  If a message isn't able to be sent, the program opens an error window which gains focus and you can't miss it.  Therefore, a sent announcement is unnecessary and presents no information that isn't obvious if you instruct the person in what to look for.  Also, learning how to derive information from context and behavior is important.  You won't always have someone explaining everything in every program and every new program.
 
But since you clearly indicate that sighted people get information when saving an already saved document again, this is a case where the screen-reader isn't presenting information that would be useful and that can't conveniently be inferred, as in the case of e-mail. 
 
And the idea that the developers got somehow that it can't be determined when copying and pasting take place is just plain wrong.  it isn't even debateable, it’s a matter of fact.  JAWS knows when, and System Access knows when.  I have specifically seen instances when copying didn't take place and no erroneous report was made.  I don't know how this myth that the developers persist in believing got started but it has never been true. 
 
Also, the NVDA add-on tells me accurately when copying and pasting takes place.  The person who wrote the add-on believes that it doesn't for some reason but I've been using it almost daily since it came out and I've almost never seen it make a mistake.
 
I'm making a point of this because, since this can be accurately determined, it should be incorporated into NVDA and not left to an add-on, which a lot of people will never know exist. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2019 4:39 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

Just chiming in to give the visual perspective:
In Notepad, when pressing control+s:
- If the document has not been saved before, the "Save as" dialog appears and NVDA reports that.
- If the document has been saved previously, Notepad saves it, and NVDA does not say anything (unless you have speak command keys on, in which case NVDA reports "control+s").  Notepad does put an asterisk at the start of the filename in the title bar when a document has been edited.  This disappears when the document is saved.  NVDA does read this asterisk when reading the title bar.

In Word 365, when pressing control+s:
- If the document has not been saved before, a "Save this file" window appears and NVDA reports that.
- If the document has been saved previously and "AutoSave" is enabled, nothing happens and NVDA does not report anything (again unless speak command keys is on to report "control+s").  With AutoSave on, the document is saved every time any key is pressed so control+s is not needed.
- If the document has been saved previously and "AutoSave" is not enabled, the visual response is again subtle.  When you open a document, or save it, the title bar notes "Filename - Saved".  Once you change it, the "Saved" disappears.  This gets reinstated when you save it.  There is currently a known issue, I believe with the way Office is exposing the title bar.  See: https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/10150

Similar to announcing cut, copied or pasted, reporting when a document is saved is not something we would be inclined to add to NVDA UNLESS we could be sure a document had been saved.  I can see the usefulness of the functionality for some users (it reminds me of how when teaching email, people often want confirmation that the email has been sent, but many email clients don't give that).  For this reason, I would recommend it might be useful functionality for an add-on.  Possibly Damien Garwood, developer of the ClipSpeak add-on, might be interested in adding it.

Kind regards

Quentin.

On Fri, Nov 8, 2019 at 6:14 AM Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
I checked, and the settings you are discussing are checked by default.  So people should hear this message in general.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2019 1:08 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

It should be spoken and if it isn't without changing NVDA settings, the problem should be corrected. 
 
Perhaps this is a problem using NVDA in Windows 10.  The message is spoken in Windows 7. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----

Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2019 1:02 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

Hi


If it is the message he wants to hear even though it is not spoken when in note pad and do the alt key + f4 key and get the message do you want to save which is not spoken.


he can do the following in nvdas settings under simple review cursor make sure it is checked and make sure simple review mode is checked.


If i want to hear the message when it comes up and says cancel save etc and it is not spoken out which does not worry me I can use object navigation to hear it in this case it is the nvda key + 6 on the numeric keypad then use nvda key + 4 tto go back to where the buttons are and save that way.


Some of the material that is not read out can be accessed with object navigation like this example.


If a document is already saved I do not need to hear it has been saved as I know it has been.


Gene nz


On 8/11/2019 7:40 am, Gene wrote:
Window-eyes says that because it is told by the developers, to say that word when that key combination is pressed.  it isn't analyzing an action by the word processor or text editor to know if a document was saved.  It is just saying the word.  That is bad design and Window-eyes probably says other things because the screen-reader is programmed to do so just because a certain key combination is pressed. 
 
Frankly, you are worrying excessively about almost nothing.  As I said, if you issue the save command twice, it is almost 100 percent certain that the document has been saved.  And to emphasize the point, all this time, you were saving documents and relying on Window-eyes to tell you that they were saved when actually, all it was doing was saying the word saved because it was programmed to when you pressed that combination.  But that shows how reliably your documents were being saved. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2019 12:23 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

FYI: In Window-Eyes when pressing the control-s command it does say “save”. In NVDA the alt-f4 command is helpful. Another thought that occured to me is to go to the file name in the subdirectory and check the date and time last saved, especially if i want to continue editing the document.
 
Listening for His shout!
Grant – A.K.A. Grandpa DOS
 
--
Image NVDA
        certified expert
Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related materials at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net

To find out which library networks in New Zealand have a copy of the NVDA screen reader on them and there library locations please go to http://www.accessibilitycentral.net/nz%20libraries%20with%20nvda.html
To find a NVDA certified expert near you, please visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified individuals from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA expert exam.



--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager



--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager


how to copy more then one items and to keep them all in the clipboard in NVDA

Moty Azrad
 

Hi all,

 

I need to copy one item and after that to move to another area in the table and to copy another one, sometimes I need to copy six or more items and I need to these all information in the clipboard and after that I paste it to any document.

With Jaws, it’s called: appended so I need the same thing in NVDA.

 

Any help please

 

Moti

 

 

Moti Azrad 

Musician and Piano-Tuner         

 

motiaz@...

 

azrad_moty@...

 

Israel

 

 

 

 


Re: Quick default hot key question

Tony Malykh
 

By default AudioChart assigns NVDA+a shortcut in desktop layout and nvda+control+shift+a in laptop layout.

Is your NVDA running in Laptop layout?

In any case, you can always change default hotkeys in input gestures dialog in preferences menu.

--Tony

On 11/7/2019 8:56 AM, Sile via Groups.Io wrote:
Hello


The NVDA Audio Chart add-on for XL is set, by default, to the hotkey 'tab plus a'.  This is also the key to read to end.  Is there any way to change the audio chart hot key, or do I have to change the read-to-end hot key?



--Sile




Re: Links on websites with submenus and/or links that NVDA can't interact with

Joshua Tubbs
 

Okay, I can get it to work, kind of, but mine doesn't work like a
regular link. I have to do a route mouse command to the link with
capslock shift M on Laptop layout and the menu comes up. It does not
when I press enter on it, though...

On 11/7/19, Joshua Tubbs via Groups.Io <orin8722=gmail.com@groups.io> wrote:
Hmm. Were you using Chrome?

I'll have to double check to see if JavaScript is on in Chrome.



On 11/6/19, Gene <gsasner@gmail.com> wrote:
I just looked at the site with JAVA script on. I followed one of the
links
and it opened another page as a standard link does. I see that the site
has
a login place, and you didn't say if you did so. I didn't look enough to
see if features are available if you log in that aren't otherwise, but
the
entire home page appears accessible to me. In addition, between each of
the
navigation links is a link that says skip navigation links. You really
only
need one but since someone put a skip link after every navigation link,
that
strongly implies to me that the site was designed to be accessible, even
if
this or that accomodation may be overdoing it.

I'm not sure what accounts for your problems or if, given more
information,
we can see them. But just going to the site and looking around doesn't
show
me any.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

Hi all,

I just visited the following website:

http://canadianxpress.ca/

I notice that when going there, there is a number sign at the end of
the address. There are multiple websites I've found like this, and
each time I've encountered issues.
On this particular site I believe the main links open up drop downs
with additional links underneath the main one. Is there a way,
whether
via addons or other, to make this and other sites like this usable,
short of contacting the webmaster who may or may not change the links
to make them clickable? Jaws simply announces the links as mouse
overs, but has the same result as NVDA. I've come across sites where
to hover over content, you can simply activate object navigation and
route the mouse cursor to the link in question and more information
will be present. Not with this one, however...

Any help would be appreciated. Tried switching browsers as well.














Re: Links on websites with submenus and/or links that NVDA can't interact with

Joshua Tubbs
 

Hmm. Were you using Chrome?

I'll have to double check to see if JavaScript is on in Chrome.

On 11/6/19, Gene <gsasner@gmail.com> wrote:
I just looked at the site with JAVA script on. I followed one of the links
and it opened another page as a standard link does. I see that the site has
a login place, and you didn't say if you did so. I didn't look enough to
see if features are available if you log in that aren't otherwise, but the
entire home page appears accessible to me. In addition, between each of the
navigation links is a link that says skip navigation links. You really only
need one but since someone put a skip link after every navigation link, that
strongly implies to me that the site was designed to be accessible, even if
this or that accomodation may be overdoing it.

I'm not sure what accounts for your problems or if, given more information,
we can see them. But just going to the site and looking around doesn't show
me any.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

Hi all,

I just visited the following website:

http://canadianxpress.ca/

I notice that when going there, there is a number sign at the end of
the address. There are multiple websites I've found like this, and
each time I've encountered issues.
On this particular site I believe the main links open up drop downs
with additional links underneath the main one. Is there a way, whether
via addons or other, to make this and other sites like this usable,
short of contacting the webmaster who may or may not change the links
to make them clickable? Jaws simply announces the links as mouse
overs, but has the same result as NVDA. I've come across sites where
to hover over content, you can simply activate object navigation and
route the mouse cursor to the link in question and more information
will be present. Not with this one, however...

Any help would be appreciated. Tried switching browsers as well.












Re: NVDA adding and changing settings

Quentin Christensen
 

I didn't say you couldn't make an educational assumption about when copying and pasting has taken place, and from what I've experienced, the add-on does do an excellent job of this.  What I meant by us not being able to tell, was more that it would involve checking other things to determine whether something has been copied etc, rather than having something exposed from the program or Windows which states definitively "text has been copied" (or how much, or whatever).  The fact that the add-on does such a good job of it, could be an argument to put forward a case for adding it to NVDA core.  My understanding is that this is basically how other screen readers make the same assumptions about copying and pasting.

Re knowing when an email has been sent.  In a way, it is the same thing, because you don't get a message saying it has been sent, but you know it has been sent because the draft email disappears when you give the instruction to send it, and there's no error message.  Theoretically, NVDA could be made to give the user a message that the email had been sent.  You are right about teaching people to use those cues to know that it has been sent, my point was simply that in my experience, if you haven't got them familiar with the idea beforehand, probably the majority of people, if you just instruct them how to write an email and what button to press to send it, will immediately ask "did it send?"  The merits of adding a confirmation to reassure new users, vs only notifying when there is an error could be debated either way, but that's the way it works, and largely, that is the same for copying text.

We could do away with a lot of confirmation messages if we expect people to understand what commands they are giving the computer and the ways they behave.  Or, we could add in a lot more confirmation messages if we want to make computers more novice friendly.  Is the current system perfect?  Probably not.  Office, for instance, has changed to automatically saving documents.  Once you've saved a document once, in Word 2003, if you write some more text, and then press ALT+F4, Word will ask if you want to save the changes.  Word 365 will have already saved your changes and will simply close.  Which way is correct?  You could argue either way - and in fact, in the Office 365 model currenly, you NEVER get a confirmation your document has been saved.  But you can infer it by reading the title bar (for the purpose of the conversation, disregard the bug that currently prevents getting that information) and by the fact that you don't get prompted to save when you try to close Word.


On Fri, Nov 8, 2019 at 10:48 AM Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
If an e-mail has been sent, the window closes and you are automatically placed where you were before you wrote, replied, to, or forwarded a message.  If a message isn't able to be sent, the program opens an error window which gains focus and you can't miss it.  Therefore, a sent announcement is unnecessary and presents no information that isn't obvious if you instruct the person in what to look for.  Also, learning how to derive information from context and behavior is important.  You won't always have someone explaining everything in every program and every new program.
 
But since you clearly indicate that sighted people get information when saving an already saved document again, this is a case where the screen-reader isn't presenting information that would be useful and that can't conveniently be inferred, as in the case of e-mail. 
 
And the idea that the developers got somehow that it can't be determined when copying and pasting take place is just plain wrong.  it isn't even debateable, it’s a matter of fact.  JAWS knows when, and System Access knows when.  I have specifically seen instances when copying didn't take place and no erroneous report was made.  I don't know how this myth that the developers persist in believing got started but it has never been true. 
 
Also, the NVDA add-on tells me accurately when copying and pasting takes place.  The person who wrote the add-on believes that it doesn't for some reason but I've been using it almost daily since it came out and I've almost never seen it make a mistake.
 
I'm making a point of this because, since this can be accurately determined, it should be incorporated into NVDA and not left to an add-on, which a lot of people will never know exist. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2019 4:39 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

Just chiming in to give the visual perspective:
In Notepad, when pressing control+s:
- If the document has not been saved before, the "Save as" dialog appears and NVDA reports that.
- If the document has been saved previously, Notepad saves it, and NVDA does not say anything (unless you have speak command keys on, in which case NVDA reports "control+s").  Notepad does put an asterisk at the start of the filename in the title bar when a document has been edited.  This disappears when the document is saved.  NVDA does read this asterisk when reading the title bar.

In Word 365, when pressing control+s:
- If the document has not been saved before, a "Save this file" window appears and NVDA reports that.
- If the document has been saved previously and "AutoSave" is enabled, nothing happens and NVDA does not report anything (again unless speak command keys is on to report "control+s").  With AutoSave on, the document is saved every time any key is pressed so control+s is not needed.
- If the document has been saved previously and "AutoSave" is not enabled, the visual response is again subtle.  When you open a document, or save it, the title bar notes "Filename - Saved".  Once you change it, the "Saved" disappears.  This gets reinstated when you save it.  There is currently a known issue, I believe with the way Office is exposing the title bar.  See: https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/10150

Similar to announcing cut, copied or pasted, reporting when a document is saved is not something we would be inclined to add to NVDA UNLESS we could be sure a document had been saved.  I can see the usefulness of the functionality for some users (it reminds me of how when teaching email, people often want confirmation that the email has been sent, but many email clients don't give that).  For this reason, I would recommend it might be useful functionality for an add-on.  Possibly Damien Garwood, developer of the ClipSpeak add-on, might be interested in adding it.

Kind regards

Quentin.

On Fri, Nov 8, 2019 at 6:14 AM Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
I checked, and the settings you are discussing are checked by default.  So people should hear this message in general.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2019 1:08 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

It should be spoken and if it isn't without changing NVDA settings, the problem should be corrected. 
 
Perhaps this is a problem using NVDA in Windows 10.  The message is spoken in Windows 7. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----

Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2019 1:02 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

Hi


If it is the message he wants to hear even though it is not spoken when in note pad and do the alt key + f4 key and get the message do you want to save which is not spoken.


he can do the following in nvdas settings under simple review cursor make sure it is checked and make sure simple review mode is checked.


If i want to hear the message when it comes up and says cancel save etc and it is not spoken out which does not worry me I can use object navigation to hear it in this case it is the nvda key + 6 on the numeric keypad then use nvda key + 4 tto go back to where the buttons are and save that way.


Some of the material that is not read out can be accessed with object navigation like this example.


If a document is already saved I do not need to hear it has been saved as I know it has been.


Gene nz


On 8/11/2019 7:40 am, Gene wrote:
Window-eyes says that because it is told by the developers, to say that word when that key combination is pressed.  it isn't analyzing an action by the word processor or text editor to know if a document was saved.  It is just saying the word.  That is bad design and Window-eyes probably says other things because the screen-reader is programmed to do so just because a certain key combination is pressed. 
 
Frankly, you are worrying excessively about almost nothing.  As I said, if you issue the save command twice, it is almost 100 percent certain that the document has been saved.  And to emphasize the point, all this time, you were saving documents and relying on Window-eyes to tell you that they were saved when actually, all it was doing was saying the word saved because it was programmed to when you pressed that combination.  But that shows how reliably your documents were being saved. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2019 12:23 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

FYI: In Window-Eyes when pressing the control-s command it does say “save”. In NVDA the alt-f4 command is helpful. Another thought that occured to me is to go to the file name in the subdirectory and check the date and time last saved, especially if i want to continue editing the document.
 
Listening for His shout!
Grant – A.K.A. Grandpa DOS
 
--
Image NVDA
        certified expert
Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related materials at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net

To find out which library networks in New Zealand have a copy of the NVDA screen reader on them and there library locations please go to http://www.accessibilitycentral.net/nz%20libraries%20with%20nvda.html
To find a NVDA certified expert near you, please visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified individuals from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA expert exam.



--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager



--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager


Re: NVDA adding and changing settings

Gene
 

If an e-mail has been sent, the window closes and you are automatically placed where you were before you wrote, replied, to, or forwarded a message.  If a message isn't able to be sent, the program opens an error window which gains focus and you can't miss it.  Therefore, a sent announcement is unnecessary and presents no information that isn't obvious if you instruct the person in what to look for.  Also, learning how to derive information from context and behavior is important.  You won't always have someone explaining everything in every program and every new program.
 
But since you clearly indicate that sighted people get information when saving an already saved document again, this is a case where the screen-reader isn't presenting information that would be useful and that can't conveniently be inferred, as in the case of e-mail. 
 
And the idea that the developers got somehow that it can't be determined when copying and pasting take place is just plain wrong.  it isn't even debateable, it’s a matter of fact.  JAWS knows when, and System Access knows when.  I have specifically seen instances when copying didn't take place and no erroneous report was made.  I don't know how this myth that the developers persist in believing got started but it has never been true. 
 
Also, the NVDA add-on tells me accurately when copying and pasting takes place.  The person who wrote the add-on believes that it doesn't for some reason but I've been using it almost daily since it came out and I've almost never seen it make a mistake.
 
I'm making a point of this because, since this can be accurately determined, it should be incorporated into NVDA and not left to an add-on, which a lot of people will never know exist. 
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2019 4:39 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

Just chiming in to give the visual perspective:
In Notepad, when pressing control+s:
- If the document has not been saved before, the "Save as" dialog appears and NVDA reports that.
- If the document has been saved previously, Notepad saves it, and NVDA does not say anything (unless you have speak command keys on, in which case NVDA reports "control+s").  Notepad does put an asterisk at the start of the filename in the title bar when a document has been edited.  This disappears when the document is saved.  NVDA does read this asterisk when reading the title bar.

In Word 365, when pressing control+s:
- If the document has not been saved before, a "Save this file" window appears and NVDA reports that.
- If the document has been saved previously and "AutoSave" is enabled, nothing happens and NVDA does not report anything (again unless speak command keys is on to report "control+s").  With AutoSave on, the document is saved every time any key is pressed so control+s is not needed.
- If the document has been saved previously and "AutoSave" is not enabled, the visual response is again subtle.  When you open a document, or save it, the title bar notes "Filename - Saved".  Once you change it, the "Saved" disappears.  This gets reinstated when you save it.  There is currently a known issue, I believe with the way Office is exposing the title bar.  See: https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/10150

Similar to announcing cut, copied or pasted, reporting when a document is saved is not something we would be inclined to add to NVDA UNLESS we could be sure a document had been saved.  I can see the usefulness of the functionality for some users (it reminds me of how when teaching email, people often want confirmation that the email has been sent, but many email clients don't give that).  For this reason, I would recommend it might be useful functionality for an add-on.  Possibly Damien Garwood, developer of the ClipSpeak add-on, might be interested in adding it.

Kind regards

Quentin.

On Fri, Nov 8, 2019 at 6:14 AM Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
I checked, and the settings you are discussing are checked by default.  So people should hear this message in general.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2019 1:08 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

It should be spoken and if it isn't without changing NVDA settings, the problem should be corrected. 
 
Perhaps this is a problem using NVDA in Windows 10.  The message is spoken in Windows 7. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----

Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2019 1:02 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

Hi


If it is the message he wants to hear even though it is not spoken when in note pad and do the alt key + f4 key and get the message do you want to save which is not spoken.


he can do the following in nvdas settings under simple review cursor make sure it is checked and make sure simple review mode is checked.


If i want to hear the message when it comes up and says cancel save etc and it is not spoken out which does not worry me I can use object navigation to hear it in this case it is the nvda key + 6 on the numeric keypad then use nvda key + 4 tto go back to where the buttons are and save that way.


Some of the material that is not read out can be accessed with object navigation like this example.


If a document is already saved I do not need to hear it has been saved as I know it has been.


Gene nz


On 8/11/2019 7:40 am, Gene wrote:
Window-eyes says that because it is told by the developers, to say that word when that key combination is pressed.  it isn't analyzing an action by the word processor or text editor to know if a document was saved.  It is just saying the word.  That is bad design and Window-eyes probably says other things because the screen-reader is programmed to do so just because a certain key combination is pressed. 
 
Frankly, you are worrying excessively about almost nothing.  As I said, if you issue the save command twice, it is almost 100 percent certain that the document has been saved.  And to emphasize the point, all this time, you were saving documents and relying on Window-eyes to tell you that they were saved when actually, all it was doing was saying the word saved because it was programmed to when you pressed that combination.  But that shows how reliably your documents were being saved. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2019 12:23 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

FYI: In Window-Eyes when pressing the control-s command it does say “save”. In NVDA the alt-f4 command is helpful. Another thought that occured to me is to go to the file name in the subdirectory and check the date and time last saved, especially if i want to continue editing the document.
 
Listening for His shout!
Grant – A.K.A. Grandpa DOS
 
--
Image NVDA
        certified expert
Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related materials at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net

To find out which library networks in New Zealand have a copy of the NVDA screen reader on them and there library locations please go to http://www.accessibilitycentral.net/nz%20libraries%20with%20nvda.html
To find a NVDA certified expert near you, please visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified individuals from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA expert exam.



--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager


Re: NVDA announcing new opened windows

Rui Fontes
 

Why not using the Windows sounds?


Rui Fontes


Às 16:43 de 07/11/2019, Florian Ionașcu escreveu:

Hello Janet, I think it would be great.

La 07.11.2019 18:22, Janet Brandly a scris:

Hello all,

 

Is there an NVDA setting which will have NVDA make a sound when a new window is opened? For example, it would be helpful if, when launching Firefox,  NVDA would make a sound when the window is open. Right now, I wait a few seconds and alt-tab around to see if a new window has opened. Window-Eyes used to do this and it was a great feature.

 

Thanks,

 

Janet


Re: NVDA adding and changing settings

Quentin Christensen
 

Just chiming in to give the visual perspective:
In Notepad, when pressing control+s:
- If the document has not been saved before, the "Save as" dialog appears and NVDA reports that.
- If the document has been saved previously, Notepad saves it, and NVDA does not say anything (unless you have speak command keys on, in which case NVDA reports "control+s").  Notepad does put an asterisk at the start of the filename in the title bar when a document has been edited.  This disappears when the document is saved.  NVDA does read this asterisk when reading the title bar.

In Word 365, when pressing control+s:
- If the document has not been saved before, a "Save this file" window appears and NVDA reports that.
- If the document has been saved previously and "AutoSave" is enabled, nothing happens and NVDA does not report anything (again unless speak command keys is on to report "control+s").  With AutoSave on, the document is saved every time any key is pressed so control+s is not needed.
- If the document has been saved previously and "AutoSave" is not enabled, the visual response is again subtle.  When you open a document, or save it, the title bar notes "Filename - Saved".  Once you change it, the "Saved" disappears.  This gets reinstated when you save it.  There is currently a known issue, I believe with the way Office is exposing the title bar.  See: https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/10150

Similar to announcing cut, copied or pasted, reporting when a document is saved is not something we would be inclined to add to NVDA UNLESS we could be sure a document had been saved.  I can see the usefulness of the functionality for some users (it reminds me of how when teaching email, people often want confirmation that the email has been sent, but many email clients don't give that).  For this reason, I would recommend it might be useful functionality for an add-on.  Possibly Damien Garwood, developer of the ClipSpeak add-on, might be interested in adding it.

Kind regards

Quentin.

On Fri, Nov 8, 2019 at 6:14 AM Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
I checked, and the settings you are discussing are checked by default.  So people should hear this message in general.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2019 1:08 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

It should be spoken and if it isn't without changing NVDA settings, the problem should be corrected. 
 
Perhaps this is a problem using NVDA in Windows 10.  The message is spoken in Windows 7. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----

Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2019 1:02 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

Hi


If it is the message he wants to hear even though it is not spoken when in note pad and do the alt key + f4 key and get the message do you want to save which is not spoken.


he can do the following in nvdas settings under simple review cursor make sure it is checked and make sure simple review mode is checked.


If i want to hear the message when it comes up and says cancel save etc and it is not spoken out which does not worry me I can use object navigation to hear it in this case it is the nvda key + 6 on the numeric keypad then use nvda key + 4 tto go back to where the buttons are and save that way.


Some of the material that is not read out can be accessed with object navigation like this example.


If a document is already saved I do not need to hear it has been saved as I know it has been.


Gene nz


On 8/11/2019 7:40 am, Gene wrote:
Window-eyes says that because it is told by the developers, to say that word when that key combination is pressed.  it isn't analyzing an action by the word processor or text editor to know if a document was saved.  It is just saying the word.  That is bad design and Window-eyes probably says other things because the screen-reader is programmed to do so just because a certain key combination is pressed. 
 
Frankly, you are worrying excessively about almost nothing.  As I said, if you issue the save command twice, it is almost 100 percent certain that the document has been saved.  And to emphasize the point, all this time, you were saving documents and relying on Window-eyes to tell you that they were saved when actually, all it was doing was saying the word saved because it was programmed to when you pressed that combination.  But that shows how reliably your documents were being saved. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2019 12:23 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

FYI: In Window-Eyes when pressing the control-s command it does say “save”. In NVDA the alt-f4 command is helpful. Another thought that occured to me is to go to the file name in the subdirectory and check the date and time last saved, especially if i want to continue editing the document.
 
Listening for His shout!
Grant – A.K.A. Grandpa DOS
 
--
Image NVDA
        certified expert
Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related materials at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net

To find out which library networks in New Zealand have a copy of the NVDA screen reader on them and there library locations please go to http://www.accessibilitycentral.net/nz%20libraries%20with%20nvda.html
To find a NVDA certified expert near you, please visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified individuals from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA expert exam.



--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager


Re: forms mode on in NVDA

hurrikennyandopo ...
 

Hi


Have a look under the browse mode settings in NVDA Use the ctrl key + nvda key + the letter B to bring up this dialogue menu. Then tab down until you hear Automatic focus mode for caret movement and check the box.

On my machine I also have the one under neath it checked also and instead of hearing sounds I have the one called Audio indication of focus and browse modes un checked.


I can hear the difference between the 2 modes like focus mode where you can type and browse mode where you can use quick navigation keys.


There is a short cut where it can stay in focus mode until it is changed but can not remember it at present. I think you just added the shift key along with space bar and nvda key to do it.

But i think more used say like face book etc.


Gene nz



On 8/11/2019 9:44 am, Moty Azrad wrote:

Dear all,

 

With Jaws, I can set forms mode on as auto or semi-auto.

In NVDA, I try to find the settings to change forms mode on to automatic, but didn’t find it in the settings.

 

Any help please.

 

Moti

 

Moti Azrad 

Musician and Piano-Tuner         

 

motiaz@...

 

azrad_moty@...

 

Israel

 

 

 

 

--
Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related materials at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net

To find out which library networks in New Zealand have a copy of the NVDA screen reader on them and there library locations please go to http://www.accessibilitycentral.net/nz%20libraries%20with%20nvda.html
To find a NVDA certified expert near you, please visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified individuals from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA expert exam.


Re: forms mode on in NVDA

Sascha Cowley
 

Hi,

I'm not 100 % sure what you're trying to achieve (I haven't used JFW in years), but here goes.

I believe that what Jaws calls "forms mode" is NVDA's "focus mode". You can find settings for when focus mode is activated in the "browse mode" section of NVDA's settings.

Hope this helps.


On 8/11/2019 07:44, Moty Azrad wrote:

Dear all,

�

With Jaws, I can set forms mode on as auto or semi-auto.

In NVDA, I try to find the settings to change forms mode on to automatic, but didn�t find it in the settings.

�

Any help please.

�

Moti

�

Moti Azrad�

Musician and Piano-Tuner���������

�

motiaz@...

�

azrad_moty@...

�

Israel

�

�

�

�


forms mode on in NVDA

Moty Azrad
 

Dear all,

 

With Jaws, I can set forms mode on as auto or semi-auto.

In NVDA, I try to find the settings to change forms mode on to automatic, but didn’t find it in the settings.

 

Any help please.

 

Moti

 

Moti Azrad 

Musician and Piano-Tuner         

 

motiaz@...

 

azrad_moty@...

 

Israel

 

 

 

 


NVDACon 2019 Invitation: Add-on Users gathering for users of Joseph Lee's Add-ons #NVDACon

 

Dear NVDA community,

 

I (Joseph Lee) and the organizers of NVDACon 2019 cordially invite you to an informal add-on users meeting during NVDACon 2019, scheduled for November 15-16, 2019. The NVDACon (NVDA Users and Developers Conference) is an annual gathering of NVDA community – users, developers, experts, newbies, outside participants, and even reps from companies – for a weekend of discussion, learning, and fun.

 

This year, I’m delighted to announce that I’ll be hosting a gathering of users of my add-ons. The purpose of this informal meeting (scheduled for November 15, 2019 at 4 PM Pacific/00:00 UTC on the 16th) is to discuss current state of add-ons listed below, as well as discuss feedback and plans for the future. I will also be making important announcements regarding my add-ons, specifically in regards to add-ons and upcoming NVDA 2019.3, and if time permits, demo some new features in various add-ons.

 

The following add-ons will be discussed:

 

  • Add-on Updater
  • Control Usage Assistant
  • Easy Table Navigator
  • Enhanced Touch Gestures
  • Golden Cursor
  • GoldWave
  • Object Location Tones
  • ObjPad
  • Resource Monitor
  • Screen Curtain
  • StationPlaylist
  • SystrayList
  • Windows 10 App Essentials

 

For more information about NVDACon, including how to join us and program schedule for 2019 conference, visit www.nvdacon.org. Hope to see many of you at NVDACon 2019!

 

Cheers,

Joseph

 

Joseph S. Lee

Code contributor and community add-ons reviewer, NVDA screen reader project (2012 to present)

Creator and founding chair, NVDACon/NVDA Users and Developers Conference (2014 to 2016)


Re: NVDA adding and changing settings

Gene
 

I checked, and the settings you are discussing are checked by default.  So people should hear this message in general.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2019 1:08 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

It should be spoken and if it isn't without changing NVDA settings, the problem should be corrected. 
 
Perhaps this is a problem using NVDA in Windows 10.  The message is spoken in Windows 7. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----

Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2019 1:02 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

Hi


If it is the message he wants to hear even though it is not spoken when in note pad and do the alt key + f4 key and get the message do you want to save which is not spoken.


he can do the following in nvdas settings under simple review cursor make sure it is checked and make sure simple review mode is checked.


If i want to hear the message when it comes up and says cancel save etc and it is not spoken out which does not worry me I can use object navigation to hear it in this case it is the nvda key + 6 on the numeric keypad then use nvda key + 4 tto go back to where the buttons are and save that way.


Some of the material that is not read out can be accessed with object navigation like this example.


If a document is already saved I do not need to hear it has been saved as I know it has been.


Gene nz


On 8/11/2019 7:40 am, Gene wrote:
Window-eyes says that because it is told by the developers, to say that word when that key combination is pressed.  it isn't analyzing an action by the word processor or text editor to know if a document was saved.  It is just saying the word.  That is bad design and Window-eyes probably says other things because the screen-reader is programmed to do so just because a certain key combination is pressed. 
 
Frankly, you are worrying excessively about almost nothing.  As I said, if you issue the save command twice, it is almost 100 percent certain that the document has been saved.  And to emphasize the point, all this time, you were saving documents and relying on Window-eyes to tell you that they were saved when actually, all it was doing was saying the word saved because it was programmed to when you pressed that combination.  But that shows how reliably your documents were being saved. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2019 12:23 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

FYI: In Window-Eyes when pressing the control-s command it does say “save”. In NVDA the alt-f4 command is helpful. Another thought that occured to me is to go to the file name in the subdirectory and check the date and time last saved, especially if i want to continue editing the document.
 
Listening for His shout!
Grant – A.K.A. Grandpa DOS
 
--
Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related materials at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net

To find out which library networks in New Zealand have a copy of the NVDA screen reader on them and there library locations please go to http://www.accessibilitycentral.net/nz%20libraries%20with%20nvda.html
To find a NVDA certified expert near you, please visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified individuals from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA expert exam.


Joseph Lee's add-on announcements 1: Windows 10 App Essentials 19.11.1 #addonrelease

 

Hi all,

 

Note: a part 2 of this announcement will be sent soon.

 

Within the next few hours, you’ll get a notification (hopefully via Add-on Updater) that a new update is available for Windows 10 App Essentials. Version 19.11.1 of this add-on includes a hotfix to allow continued operation of the add-on in latest NVDA 2019.3 alpha snapshots, specifically in regards to braille support in emoji panel and other Windows 10 areas. This came as a result of backwards incompatible change made to NVDA’s source code, which is affecting certain add-ons (a notice was sent to add-on authors a few hours ago).

 

Note: please do update to 19.11.1, especially if you are using NVDA 2019.3 alpha snapshots.

Cheers,

Joseph


Re: NVDA adding and changing settings

Gene
 

It should be spoken and if it isn't without changing NVDA settings, the problem should be corrected. 
 
Perhaps this is a problem using NVDA in Windows 10.  The message is spoken in Windows 7. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----

Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2019 1:02 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

Hi


If it is the message he wants to hear even though it is not spoken when in note pad and do the alt key + f4 key and get the message do you want to save which is not spoken.


he can do the following in nvdas settings under simple review cursor make sure it is checked and make sure simple review mode is checked.


If i want to hear the message when it comes up and says cancel save etc and it is not spoken out which does not worry me I can use object navigation to hear it in this case it is the nvda key + 6 on the numeric keypad then use nvda key + 4 tto go back to where the buttons are and save that way.


Some of the material that is not read out can be accessed with object navigation like this example.


If a document is already saved I do not need to hear it has been saved as I know it has been.


Gene nz


On 8/11/2019 7:40 am, Gene wrote:
Window-eyes says that because it is told by the developers, to say that word when that key combination is pressed.  it isn't analyzing an action by the word processor or text editor to know if a document was saved.  It is just saying the word.  That is bad design and Window-eyes probably says other things because the screen-reader is programmed to do so just because a certain key combination is pressed. 
 
Frankly, you are worrying excessively about almost nothing.  As I said, if you issue the save command twice, it is almost 100 percent certain that the document has been saved.  And to emphasize the point, all this time, you were saving documents and relying on Window-eyes to tell you that they were saved when actually, all it was doing was saying the word saved because it was programmed to when you pressed that combination.  But that shows how reliably your documents were being saved. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2019 12:23 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

FYI: In Window-Eyes when pressing the control-s command it does say “save”. In NVDA the alt-f4 command is helpful. Another thought that occured to me is to go to the file name in the subdirectory and check the date and time last saved, especially if i want to continue editing the document.
 
Listening for His shout!
Grant – A.K.A. Grandpa DOS
 
--
Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related materials at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net

To find out which library networks in New Zealand have a copy of the NVDA screen reader on them and there library locations please go to http://www.accessibilitycentral.net/nz%20libraries%20with%20nvda.html
To find a NVDA certified expert near you, please visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified individuals from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA expert exam.


Re: NVDA adding and changing settings

hurrikennyandopo ...
 

Hi


If it is the message he wants to hear even though it is not spoken when in note pad and do the alt key + f4 key and get the message do you want to save which is not spoken.


he can do the following in nvdas settings under simple review cursor make sure it is checked and make sure simple review mode is checked.


If i want to hear the message when it comes up and says cancel save etc and it is not spoken out which does not worry me I can use object navigation to hear it in this case it is the nvda key + 6 on the numeric keypad then use nvda key + 4 tto go back to where the buttons are and save that way.


Some of the material that is not read out can be accessed with object navigation like this example.


If a document is already saved I do not need to hear it has been saved as I know it has been.


Gene nz


On 8/11/2019 7:40 am, Gene wrote:
Window-eyes says that because it is told by the developers, to say that word when that key combination is pressed.  it isn't analyzing an action by the word processor or text editor to know if a document was saved.  It is just saying the word.  That is bad design and Window-eyes probably says other things because the screen-reader is programmed to do so just because a certain key combination is pressed. 
 
Frankly, you are worrying excessively about almost nothing.  As I said, if you issue the save command twice, it is almost 100 percent certain that the document has been saved.  And to emphasize the point, all this time, you were saving documents and relying on Window-eyes to tell you that they were saved when actually, all it was doing was saying the word saved because it was programmed to when you pressed that combination.  But that shows how reliably your documents were being saved. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2019 12:23 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

FYI: In Window-Eyes when pressing the control-s command it does say “save”. In NVDA the alt-f4 command is helpful. Another thought that occured to me is to go to the file name in the subdirectory and check the date and time last saved, especially if i want to continue editing the document.
 
Listening for His shout!
Grant – A.K.A. Grandpa DOS
 
--
Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related materials at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net

To find out which library networks in New Zealand have a copy of the NVDA screen reader on them and there library locations please go to http://www.accessibilitycentral.net/nz%20libraries%20with%20nvda.html
To find a NVDA certified expert near you, please visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified individuals from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA expert exam.


Re: NVDA adding and changing settings

Gene
 

Window-eyes says that because it is told by the developers, to say that word when that key combination is pressed.  it isn't analyzing an action by the word processor or text editor to know if a document was saved.  It is just saying the word.  That is bad design and Window-eyes probably says other things because the screen-reader is programmed to do so just because a certain key combination is pressed. 
 
Frankly, you are worrying excessively about almost nothing.  As I said, if you issue the save command twice, it is almost 100 percent certain that the document has been saved.  And to emphasize the point, all this time, you were saving documents and relying on Window-eyes to tell you that they were saved when actually, all it was doing was saying the word saved because it was programmed to when you pressed that combination.  But that shows how reliably your documents were being saved. 
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2019 12:23 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

FYI: In Window-Eyes when pressing the control-s command it does say “save”. In NVDA the alt-f4 command is helpful. Another thought that occured to me is to go to the file name in the subdirectory and check the date and time last saved, especially if i want to continue editing the document.
 
Listening for His shout!
Grant – A.K.A. Grandpa DOS
 


Re: NVDA adding and changing settings

Grant Metcalf
 

FYI: In Window-Eyes when pressing the control-s command it does say “save”. In NVDA the alt-f4 command is helpful. Another thought that occured to me is to go to the file name in the subdirectory and check the date and time last saved, especially if i want to continue editing the document.
 
Listening for His shout!
Grant – A.K.A. Grandpa DOS
 

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